Game of Owns: The Last of Clash
By Winter Is Coming on in Books, Podcast.

After 70 chapters and just as many podcasts, Game of Owns finishes up their read-through of A Clash of Kings with this Bran chapter. Listen and enjoy!

Episode 192 – The Last of Clash

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ACOK Chapter 69: Bran VII
In this final chapter of A Clash of Kings, Brandon and his motley bunch of discarded souls brave the dark of Winterfell’s undercity and destruction to plot the course of their ever-destined futures.

 

 

Discussion Topics
In the dark crypts
Untrustworthy neighbors
Goodbye Maester
Warging well
Compare the endings
Magic is REAL
Owns of the chapter
Listener Owns
Micah’s write up


60 Comments

  1. BOB
    Posted February 1, 2014 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    hodor

  2. WompWomp
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    BOB,

    Do you HODORers on GOO posts even listen to the podcast?

  3. Aldi_A
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,
    Speaking from someone who Hodors a lot I do listen to them I don’t know about him though.

  4. BOB
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    it was my first time with a first comment, I figured ‘why not’? sorry if I irritated anyone.

  5. WompWomp
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    BOB,

    Sorry if I came off cold. I’m trying to cut down on emoticons, but that can leave some sentences sounding kind of blunt. I was just curious. I think GOO deserves more vocal love here than it often gets, so I found myself wondering about the extent of the Hodoring opportunism at work. I like to read people’s thoughts on this site, and it’s a little disappointing when the first response to a fresh podcast is another “Hodor,” especially if it’s the only response for a while, which has happened more than a few times. I’m not singling you out, though. Enjoy the glory of your first first comment! We’ve all felt the first-thirst at some point. [laughs]

    P.S. If you’re gonna Hodor, might as well make it loud and proud. No use doing something half-well. HODOR! :O

  6. Dolorous Ned
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    One of my favourite chapters. I totally fell for Bran’s and Rickon’s fake deaths (well, almost…), I would have killed GRRM if I had seen him in that moment. So this chapter was incredibly reassuring, even with Winterfell burned down.
    I think I’ve read the last lines about a hundred times.

    “The stone is strong. Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either.”

  7. dragonreborn
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Is there any confirmation that there will be a teaser in superbowl?

  8. Ffiferoo
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    I hope not. I don’t want to start crying in the middle of my friends’ party…

  9. Incest & Wargin'
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    “It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either.”

    I’m in love with this as well. It’s seamless, looks so simple, but so beautifully written.

  10. otia dant vitia
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Thankyou very much to all at GOO – always a pleasure to listen and i look forward to your continued coverage. Here’s some xxxs.

  11. argilac's antler
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    I avoided listening to GOO myself, having burned myself out on all things ASoIaF and especially after listening to another ASoIaF podcast for many years. Their cynicism got tiring especially once the TV series aired and became such a hit. It put me off to listening to anyone else talk about the series (books and show both). My first listen of GOO was only very recently with the awards winners video. Turns out I really enjoyed listening to them and so far have listened to the last Theon chapter and this one.

    Grats GOO, you have won me over.

  12. WompWomp
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Incest & Wargin’,

    That kind of writing was what resonated with me when I first got into ASOIAF. GRRM somehow avoided all the meaningless ornamentation I’d come to expect from a lot of modern fantasy writers. What I found instead was simply fierce and beautiful, as immediate as any history or local myth. Sometimes I forget just how convinced I was of his world after years of subsisting on the TV series alone (having finished the available books as soon as I could). There are some things even beyond the powers of episodic television to capture, such as GRRM’s plain-spoken poetry. I love how he relays so many histories, emotions, and even arcane forces in entirely relatable terms. That’s the true source of magic in ASOIAF.

    I have a few friends who dismiss the quality of GRRM’s writing as merely decent or even terrible while they praise the show to the stratosphere. This perplexes me greatly, as nearly every greatness exhibited by the TV series is completely derived or even pared down from the source material, which is unquestionably deeper and darker than the show will ever be.

    That said, I was surprisingly underwhelmed by AFFC and especially ADWD, so I’m banking on the showrunners to pare all that down into something unified, streamlined, and altogether more exciting than the novels ever were. It was only in those books that I began to think GRRM started dooming himself to some repetition and tired wordplay.

  13. Lord Davos
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Agreed

  14. WompWomp
    Posted February 2, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned,

    Man, that green dream foretelling their “deaths” freaked. Me. Out. So awesome.

    argilac’s antler,

    GOO is good ol’ easy listening. The hosts are good-natured and seasoned veterans of fandom (Harry Potter, I believe) without the irritating conceits that could so easily accompany that experience. As much as I enjoy them now, you should look into their older material, when the four hosts got together more often. Their two-reader two-non-reader dynamic works very well. I’d argue that’s GOO at its best. Their series of Season One commentaries are also highly enjoyable.

  15. Lordling
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    What did you guys think of the winged serpent that Summer saw in the sky at the beginning of the chapter? The whole “Dragon from Winterfell” theory. Osha saying, “We made enough noise to wake a dragon”. I’m always interested to see what people think about that.

  16. Hear Me Roar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    argilac’s antler,

    Glad to hear that. I really enjoy GOO, Phil got them on board for a reason ;)

  17. Ser Tahu
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,
    I’ve never understood the hatred for ADwD, as it is my second favourite book in the series (behind ASoS, of course). AFfC was admittedly tough to get through.

    I do disagree with your assessment of them, though, as they had some of the most beautiful writing in the series. On that front there was most definitely no decline in quality. Where the books (or rather AFfC. As I said I loved ADwD) fall short is the slow plot and character progression. I think it speaks volumes that in AFfC the most interesting storylines involved completely new characters.

  18. cosca
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 5:49 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    Well, between the plot stagnation, filler chapters, character regression and irritating repeated phrases I can easily understand how someone could hate Dance.

  19. Lord Davos
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    A dance with dragons is my favorite.
    No matter how much people whine,
    it remains the most well written.
    For me, the book elevated Asoiaf a second time after ASOS.
    Six years of writing are behold to experts, and i am most happy GRRM is as good as he is.
    I wonder how many years it takes for people to respect and understand GRRM.

  20. TheBerylfly
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    All of that is very personal, no? A Feast is my second favorite book while ADWD is… not, and I can wax on and one why that is, thinking that I am being completely objective. On the other hand, my friend adores ADWD, naming it her favorite, and thinks herself completely objective like I am. Then there are people like you and people who hate post-ASOS everything.
    Though I do think favorite characters are a lot of influence. Tyrion/Dany/Jon lovers are more inclined to love ADWD/dislike AFFC, while for a Lannister girl like myself the Feast was a treat

  21. Chet's Boil
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    I could see how someone could dislike the last two books. Feast definitely is a huge tempo change for the series, especially after the action packed Storm of swords. But I love both of the last two books. I feel that the change in pace is warranted. Everyone is regrouping. Plus i like a lot of the new characters. Am I the only one who thinks Haldon the halfmaester is the shit?

  22. Annara Snow
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Well, I enjoyed A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons may be my second favorite novel in the series, after Storm (and I think it fleshes out Essos better than Storm).

    Feast didn’t have climactic events like most of the other books, but it had some really beautiful writing, character moments, foreshadowing.

    WompWomp:
    Incest & Wargin’,

    That kind of writing was what resonated with me when I first got into ASOIAF. GRRM somehow avoided all the meaningless ornamentation I’d come to expect from a lot of modern fantasy writers. What I found instead was simply fierce and beautiful, as immediate as any history or local myth. Sometimes I forget just how convinced I was of his world after years of subsisting on the TV series alone (having finished the available books as soon as I could). There are some things even beyond the powers of episodic television to capture, such as GRRM’s plain-spoken poetry. I love how he relays so many histories, emotions, and even arcane forces in entirely relatable terms. That’s the true source of magic in ASOIAF.

    I have a few friends who dismiss the quality of GRRM’s writing as merely decent or even terrible while they praise the show to the stratosphere. This perplexes me greatly, as nearly every greatness exhibited by the TV series is completely derived or even pared down from the source material, which is unquestionably deeper and darker than the show will ever be.

    Really? There are people who say that? I’ve never met a single person (in real life or online) who’s both seen the show and read the books and thinks the show is better. And the majority, including those who watched the show first, outright state that the books are better. Not only does the show lack the background, foreshadowing, subtext, and not only are many of the characters made to seem almost like stereotypes that they subvert in the books (Sansa, Cat, Brienne, Loras…), but the show gives us such awful dialogue as “I didn’t come here to argue grammar” or “All men must die, but we are not men”.

    The show has a phenomenal cast, but the writing can be sub-par. There were some good changes made for the show, but for the most part, the show is best when it sticks close to the books, and many of the changes were very bad (Dany in season 2, Jon, Robb/Talisa, Sansa in season 3).

  23. WompWomp
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Lordling,

    I just noticed that for the first time as well. I’m kind of freaking out. I’m struggling to recollect whether anyone makes note of the particularly ruined state of Winterfell in ADWD to indicate whether it was beyond the work of Ramsay or not. Now I’m wondering if it would make any sense for the Boltons to torch Winterfell themselves, given their aspirations in the North.

    Ser Tahu,

    While my final opinion on ADWD is now known here, I won’t presume to speak for anyone. If anything, it’s my loss that I didn’t enjoy it as much as you did. I really, really, really wish I loved it. I’ll be picking up the paperback someday. I’ve wondered if it was a psychological side effect from reading it in hardcover form, which I found jarring after consuming the rest of the series in paperback form. You never know. The little things can have unexpected consequences.

  24. Rygar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Who compares the two anyway? Seems pointless. Let’s talk Football!

  25. WompWomp
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Believe me, that reaction exists and it’s absolutely beyond me.

    I loved Brienne’s arc in AFFC in particular. I was initially surprised to hear people refer to it as a weak point of the novel, but I think it’s pretty clear by now that a good number of us come away with our own set of favorites.

    Lines like “I didn’t come here to argue grammar” scream filler-wit to me. “All men must die, but we are not men” was pretty modern, even by GoT standards, but Dany’s storyline tends to be an outlet for tidbits like that. I know it resonates with a decent portion of viewers, the ones who always refer to her as “Khaleesi” in conversation.
    (ex: “Khaleesi is my favorite.”)

    I keep wishing the show would indulge us with more quiet scenes overflowing with lore, throughout the seasons, like a reflection upon the fall of Valyria, the fallout of the Doom, the Maesters and the dragons, the origins, value, and martial merits of Valyrian steel, etc. I’ll definitely have to reread the series just to experience these things again. I always loved the more quiet qualities of magic in ASOIAF.

  26. Rygar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Agreed. The touching scene between Dany and Doreah should have been included in the show.

  27. WompWomp
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Chet’s Boil:
    I could see how someone could dislike the last two books. Feast definitely is a huge tempo change for the series, especially after the action packed Storm of swords. But I love both of the last two books. I feel that the change in pace is warranted. Everyone is regrouping. Plus i like a lot of the new characters. Am I the only one who thinks Haldon the halfmaester is the shit?

    They certainly are. AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS really do keep raising the stakes, until all this (blood) pressure is released. I was deflated to find that ADwD was mostly the calm before the storm, an effect which was doubled by the addition of many farflung POVs between and AFfC. I’m sure it will all come together in fantastic fashion down the line. It’s just that I, along with others disappointed in ADwD in particular, were dismayed by the relative lack of payoff. That, and the writing really didn’t click with me during my first read. The only new character voice I truly bought into was Doran’s.

    No, you’re certainly not alone there! Unconventional Maesters in ASOIAF are typically the shit, including Marwyn and Qyburn. I can’t wait to see Qyburn’s handiwork in particular, in print and onscreen. I LOVED his scenes on the show. Along with Valyrian steel lore, I wish they emphasized the roles of Maesters in Westeros a bit more in Game of Thrones.

  28. WompWomp
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    That was a great scene. We all know what they saved TV Doreah for, in the end. Rakharo’s death was a pretty awesome liberty they took, though. That was quite a moving scene as well. I’m glad they cut the footage of Doreah strangling Irri from the episode.

    They had little choice given Dany’s pull with viewers, but I really wish S2 had less Dany overall and more of her in the House of the Undying. It’s painful to admit, but it made a lot of sense to cut the Red Wedding from that sequence as it was too much of a giveaway as a pure visual. Even still, I would have loved to have seen of the more abstract visions included in that sequence.

    And while I’m on the subject, Dany’s worst hair days were in Qarth, to the point I want to look away. She was much better off with her regular ‘do, riding clothes, and that awesome makeshift dragon perch/pauldron.

  29. Annara Snow
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Annara Snow,

    Believe me, that reaction exists and it’s absolutely beyond me.

    I loved Brienne’s arc in AFFC in particular. I was initially surprised to hear people refer to it as a weak point of the novel, but I think it’s pretty clear by now that a good number of us come away with our own set of favorites.

    Lines like “I didn’t come here to argue grammar” scream filler-wit to me. “All men must die, but we are not men” was pretty modern, even by GoT standards, but Dany’s storyline tends to be an outlet for tidbits like that. I know it resonates with a decent portion of viewers, the ones who always refer to her as “Khaleesi” in conversation.
    (ex: “Khaleesi is my favorite.”)

    I keep wishing the show would indulge us with more quiet scenes overflowing with lore, throughout the seasons, like a reflection upon the fall of Valyria, the fallout of the Doom, the Maesters and the dragons, the origins, value, and martial merits of Valyrian steel, etc. I’ll definitely have to reread the series just to experience these things again. I always loved the more quiet qualities of magic in ASOIAF.

    Not just filler-wit, but bad wit. Not only is “I didn’t come here to argue grammar” a cringe-worthy example of a character on GoT saying something that sounds like a poster arguing on an online forum, but it’s also undercut by the fact that they weren’t even arguing grammar… They were arguing about vocabulary (the Quathian guy was correcting her about the exact meaning of a word). ;)
    It was one of those awful season 2 scenes where Dany was supposed to come off as a badass and determined, but ended up looking shrill and brattish instead, and a lot less mature than in the book.

    “All men must die… but we’re not men” is just absurd. Yay, girl power! We women are awesome because we don’t have to die, we are immortal… Why hasn’t anyone told me?
    … Oh, wait…

  30. Rygar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I think I used the wrong context. By touching I meant groping. ;)

  31. cosca
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow:They were arguing about vocabulary (the Quathian guy was correcting her about the exact meaning of a word). ;)
    It was one of those awful season 2 scenes where Dany was supposed to come off as a badass and determined, but ended up looking shrill and brattish instead, and a lot less mature than in the book.

    how do you know she wasn’t meant to come off as shrill and brattish in that scene?

  32. Mr Fixit
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    cosca: how do you know she wasn’t meant to come off as shrill and brattish in that scene?

    You took the words right out of my mouth. We can argue whether Dany’s S2 plotline was well written and executed, and I agree it wasn’t one of show’s better moments. However, I’d say Dany was supposed to sound entitled, brattish, and insecure; that’s one of the main points of her story that season.

  33. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow:
    “All men must die… but we’re not men” is just absurd. Yay, girl power! We women are awesome because we don’t have to die, we are immortal… Why hasn’t anyone told me?
    … Oh, wait…

    :) With a language like Valyrian, I would assume that bold statements like “Valar Morghulis” and other bravado sayings would have unisex connotations, with “men” implying all humanity, including the ones without root & stem. David Peterson should have been consulted during the scripting of that scene! If he was and it still flew…then shame!

    Although it was particularly goofy after the previous intense scene, I believe Dany & M were having a fun moment there….nothing more.

  34. Jordan
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Actually, it’s kind of a debated question whether or not the word is unisex.

    What I mean, is that the term “Valonqar”, which plays some importance in a prophesy (which I hope won’t make it to the show) is translated as “little brother”, although there have been various arguments among fans as to whether the word might actually be unisex.

    But assuming valonquar does mean “little brother”, it seems that the root word “val” in Valyrian means man in the sense of male gender, although as in English, it is also used to mean humanity in general.

    So, tl; dr, it is a rather modern bit of dialogue, but Dany’s lines actually do make sense in terms of Valyrian linguistics.

  35. Annara Snow
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit: You took the words right out of my mouth. We can argue whether Dany’s S2 plotline was well written and executed, and I agree it wasn’t one of show’s better moments. However, I’d say Dany was supposed to sound entitled, brattish, and insecure; that’s one of the main points of her story that season.

    Then the question is, why. She did not sound shrill, brattish or insecure in A Clash of Kings. (And it’s pretty ironic that so many people keep insisting that she’s “whitewashed” in the show.) Why would they think it was a good idea to portray her that way in season 2, when she hadn’t even established herself as a leader or done something big and “badass”, apart from just hatching her dragons?

    I don’t think they meant to portray her as a brat, but even when they’re trying to portray her as strong and “badass”, they tend to have her make grand declamatory statements (as the one from the season 4 trailer) and it ends up looking silly at times.

  36. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    But assuming valonquar does mean “little brother”, it seems that the root word “val” in Valyrian means man in the sense of male gender, although as in English, it is also used to mean humanity in general.

    Val, the most awesome woman north of the wall, might have something to say about that, ser.

    Thx for the reminder. I remember that debate…would love to hear GRRM’s take on it someday.

  37. Rygar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    All “val” means to me is a sexy northern girl, and with the way shes kisses, she keeps her boyfriend warm at night.

  38. Rygar
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    WARG!!!!!!

  39. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    WARG!!!!!!

    Hah! Deranged minds think alike. Psych! You owe me a Pepsi!

  40. Chet's Boil
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    WompWomp,

    I think I used the wrong context.By touching I meant groping. ;)

    I’m happy that we have more groping scenes to come. hopfully they include them in the show Dany & Irri and Cersei & Lady Merryweather

  41. Mr Fixit
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Then the question is, why. She did not sound shrill, brattish or insecure in A Clash of Kings. (And it’s pretty ironic that so many people keep insisting that she’s “whitewashed” in the show.) Why would they think it was a good idea to portray her that way in season 2, when she hadn’t even established herself as a leader or done something big and “badass”, apart from just hatching her dragons?

    I don’t think they meant to portray her as a brat, but even when they’re trying to portray her as strong and “badass”, they tend to have her make grand declamatory statements (as the one from the season 4 trailer) and it ends up looking silly at times.

    Don’t quote me on it, but I think there was an interview or a feature or something with a member of the production team that said Dany in S2 was about learning and misstepping or somesuch. This was the first time she was truly a leader of her people, it’s only natural she’d be uncomfortable and ill-prepared for the role.

    As I said, I agree that her arc was half-baked and not fleshed out enough with more screentime needed. I’ll even go one further: if you opt to take her dragons, do it earlier! Make the season about her trying to come to terms with the loss of her “children” and all it entails, rather than “Where are they!!?? Oh, they’re in this tower! I’ll go and check it out then.”

  42. Zeus
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Uhm Dany has been shrill and bratty since Khal Drogo killed Viserys.

  43. Deathdreams
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    I can’t take the wait for TWOW anymore! I’m going to freeze myself. Butters, you asshole! You better not forget where i am.

  44. House Mormont
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    If Eowyn can say that woman are beyond mere mortals shit and make it sound amazing, so can Daenerys.

    Mr Fixit,

    her coming to terms with the loss of her children happens in season five though, so making season 2 about that too would be a bit redundant.

    Honestly I prefer her season 2 arc to her Clash chapters… all that happens in Clash is that she discovers she doesn’t want to be a beggar queen and she should probably do something productive, and is used as a gateway for some prophecies, atleast in the show she gets to have atleast one high moment

  45. Abyss
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    I think it’s pretty clear from the books, that valar morghulis means “all men must die” in reference to all humanity. Yes, it’s a Valyrian phrase, and yes, grammatical gender is difficult to determine when it comes to that language and therefore valonquar might mean “little brother” (if grammatical gender translates to actual sex in Valyrian, which it not necessarily does). But for the same reason it could also mean “little sister” or “little sibling”, the books make big deal out of this. But what does that really tell as about valar morghulis? The truth is, next to nothing. Valar morghulis and valonquar only have the root val in common, and IIRC not even David J. Peterson has mead up a word for that yet.
    The only thing we can go by to find out what valar morghulis means is context. And the context is, that the phrase is connected with the Faceless Men, a mysterious group of people (almost exclusively men), who see killing people of all kinds of gender as part of their cult. Why would such a group chose valar morghulis (translated as “all males must die”) as their motto and then not act by it? It just don’t makes any sense context wise.

    Dany was having a little girl power moment with Missandei to cheer her up, that’s all.

  46. argilac's antler
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I felt Dany in season 2 came off as brattish myself, demanding this and that just because she had dragons, a royal bithright and dreams that apparently come true. She basically became her brother minus the cruelty and it seemed intended to me. I think was important for Dany to learn you just cant demand things and expect results because of who she was or what made her special. You have to TAKE what you want to achieve results, which she did a third into season 3. The change in her character regarding ACOK vs season 2 could be a part of what the showrunners mentioned before about slowing down certain character developments.

    That being said, I wasnt very fond of her season 2 arc. I can understand wanting to make Dany’s story more exciting for viewers but they could have done a much better job while still being true to the source material.

    Annara Snow: Then the question is, why. She did not sound shrill, brattish or insecure in A Clash of Kings. Why would they think it was a good idea to portray her that way in season 2, when she hadn’t even established herself as a leader or done something big and “badass”, apart from just hatching her dragons?

    I think that says it all actually. You’re not badass because you hatched dragons, little girl. You’re badass because you use them to take what you want. :)

  47. Lord Davos
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow:
    I don’t think they meant to portray her as a brat, but even when they’re trying to portray her as strong and “badass”, they tend to have her make grand declamatory statements (as the one from the season 4 trailer) and it ends up looking silly at times.

    We all know who she learned making grand statements from…

  48. Jordan
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    Thanks for the response. I’m aware of those elements. I guess my basic point was that Val is probably the Valyrian root word for “man” (in the sense of male), although as in English, it is used in a gender neutral sense.

    One thing RE your spoiler that the show seemed to confirm (in the scene with Dany and that dying slave) I have theorized that the reason why “All Men Must Serve” is the opposite of/reply to “All Men Must Die” is because the Braavosi/Faceless Men started out as slaves in Valyria- so basically, you were either serving or you were dead, there was no middle ground.

    To get a bit more meta, Martin probably got the phrase Valar Morghulis from Lord of the Rings, which had a group called the Valar, and a place called Morgul (in both cases, the implication of Mor meaning death is deliberate).

    As a personal bit of fanon, I’ve figured that since Valyria is equivalent to Ancient Rome, Val would likely be the equivalent of the Roman Vir (root word of virtue), which had a very solidly male connotation.

  49. Annara Snow
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: :) With a language like Valyrian, I would assume that bold statements like “Valar Morghulis” and other bravado sayings would have unisex connotations, with “men” implying all humanity, including the ones without root & stem. David Peterson should have been consulted during the scripting of that scene! If he was and it still flew…then shame!

    Although it was particularly goofy after the previous intense scene, I believe Dany & M were having a fun moment there….nothing more.

    If they wanted to make a play on words with the meaning of “men” in a Valyrian phrase, they should have used “All men must serve”. “All men must serve… but we’re not men”. That “inspirational” joke would at least have made some sense: We won’t serve! But with “All men must die…” she’s saying that they don’t have to ever die, which makes no sense, unless she’s found the secret of immortality.

  50. Abyss
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    Wow, I made a lot of typos in my first post… Sorry about that. In my defence, English isn’t my first language, but I’ll try to do better now. ;)

    Okay, let’s get a little bit crazy on this, because that what we do here, right?
    If Valyrian were a real world language, it would be not very likely that the name Val is of Valyrian origin. Wildlings and Valyrians were to far apart both geographically and culturally, even when Valyria was at it’s peak of power and therefore had the best shot in influencing other cultures. But let’s say you are right and Val is in fact a Valyrian name. Val could mean a lot of thing then, or even nothing any more or in other words, it could be to mutilated to actual show it’s root any more at this point of the morphologic change.
    My morphology teacher once gave the example of the German word “Himbeere” (raspberry). Apparently the root of the word is “him”, which make sense, because “Beere” just means “berry”, you can even see, that the two words are probably connected some how.
    So what does “him” mean? According to my teacher, nobody knows any more. It could be short for “Himmel”, which means “sky” or “haven” depending on context. If that’s true, then a “Himbeere” could be called that way, because it tastes “himmlisch” (heavenly) or something along those lines. But again, nobody seems to know for sure.

    Admittedly, val probably means something, simple because it’s so present in the Valyrian language, but it doesn’t even have to be a root word, it could also be some sort of affix. Probably some real linguist will come around now and tell me, that it actual can’t be, but I guess the point is clear. ;)
    Anyway, I guess there is no point in putting to much afford into this, because GRRM has stated, that he doesn’t think too much about the words he is creating and just makes them up on the fly when he needs them. :D
    But as for your idea about Valar Morghulis and Lord of the Rings, yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s pretty much spot on, Martin said something along this lines somewhere, but I don’t know the source atm.

  51. Abyss
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I agree. I don’t mind the scene, but I always found it to be a bit clunky.

  52. Jordan
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    Oh, just to clarify/correct, I don’t think Val (the Wilding) has a name from Valyrian.

    I think there’s a Valyrian root word “val”, which is totally different from the name of the Wilding Val, which is probably from either the Old Tongue or the Common tongue.

    Now one thing I would theorize is that perhaps that “val” is tied to the name of Valyria itself- maybe it translates to something like “Our Homeland”.

  53. Abyss
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Jordan,

    Ah, okay then, I missed that, but my point about being careful when it comes to root words still stands. ;)

  54. WompWomp
    Posted February 3, 2014 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: If they wanted to make a play on words with the meaning of “men” in a Valyrian phrase, they should have used “All men must serve”. “All men must serve… but we’re not men”. That “inspirational” joke would at least have made some sense: We won’t serve! But with “All men must die…” she’s saying that they don’t have to ever die, which makes no sense, unless she’s found the secret of immortality.

    “Valar morghulis.”
    “Valar dohaeris. All men must serve… but we are not men.”

    My god… that really would have made more sense. Now I can’t wash off all the silly from the actual script.

    All this dissection of the implications of TV Dany’s words reminded me of this famous moment:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UVd1YxGZRFE/Ty9MqV7P_1I/AAAAAAAACfM/V-mLre2RDpY/s1600/TeamAmerica.jpg

  55. Chickenduck
    Posted February 4, 2014 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    Re Valyrian, those questions have pretty much all been answered indirectly.

    GRRM only created about 10 words of Valyrian himself and has essentially given canonicity to DJP’s show Valyrian as an extension of that. In fact, GRRM has asked DJP to provide him with Valyrian and Dothraki dialogue for the future books. So to answer your questions…

    Vala is specifically “man”, as in male. The plural is vali, paucal is valun, collective is valar.

    The word for woman is “ābra” (ābri, ābrun, ābrar…). Ābrar (all women) has further derived meanings.

    Valonqar is little brother (gender specific). Little sister, big brother, big sister are all completely separate unrelated words (like in Chinese, if you know Chinese).

    Valyria is not derived from vala, the base root is valyr-

    The confusion arose because of the line about the prophesy being mistranslated, dragons not having biological gender etc – which people mistakenly took to mean that Valyrian words in general weren’t gender-specific.

  56. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted February 4, 2014 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,
    I still believe there is quite a bit of room for debate there.

    “Men” and “he” have often been used in important historical texts to convey a generic human disposition. In the American Declaration of Independence, for example, there is the famous phrase…“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal….” and later in the document the word “he” is used prodigiously to bestow rights and capabilities to all citizens. Other historical documents that champion “the people” (I won’t burden you here with the many references) also seem to focus on the male pronoun and “men” in order to avoid over-complication of formal sentence structure. [Can you imagine the use of "he or she" or "men and women" whenever a pronoun was needed in formal documents? Ugh...]

    Perhaps the forefathers were naive, perhaps they were lazy….the point is that no one refers to those statements as gender-specific. They are almost always interpreted as gender-neutral. I believe GRRM extrapolates the Valyrian language similarly in ASoI&F. Such is the case with phrases like “Valar morghulis” and “Valar dohaeris”. Maybe they initially had a gender in mind (I doubt it) but as we discussed before, they are most definitely gender-neutral.

    A perfect example of this is when Jaqen gave Arya the coin and “Valar morghulis.” The coin and phrase were meant for her to use when she was ready to begin her journey as a faceless man, which in-and-of-itself is another gender-neutral term.

  57. Chickenduck
    Posted February 4, 2014 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    Well, you can debate if you want, but it remains that it is essentially now canon that the words are NOT gender-neutral.

    Furthermore… Ironically for what you just argued, the translation for “mankind” (and “life” as a collective) isn’t valar. It’s ābrar… Which means literally “all women”.

    Maybe as a deliberate subversion :)

    Whether it is good writing is up for debate, but Dany’s line “we are not men” IS completely consistent with the High Valyrian language as developed for the show.

  58. Abyss
    Posted February 4, 2014 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I have to agree with Hodor’s Bastard here. Sometimes it simply doesn’t matter what a word or indeed whole phrases literally mean. As I said before context is way more important in this cases. Take the phrase “Don’t put yourself in trouble.” for example. It can literally mean “Don’t put yourself in danger.”, but it’s also used as “Don’t trouble yourself (on my account).”

  59. Alfador
    Posted February 4, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Where has Selina been, I haven’t heard her on one of these episodes in weeks!

  60. Frank
    Posted February 5, 2014 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    I have been wondering the same thing. I missed a bunch of the podcasts during the holidays but caught up recently.
    Alfador,


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