Maisie Williams on Arya’s dark path in S4; new sample chapter of TWOW released
By Ours is the Fury on in Books, Interview.

arya and the hound
Arya Stark will be headed for even darker places this year, according to Maisie Williams. In several new interviews, the actress discusses the younger Stark daughter’s surprising travels with the Hound (Rory McCann) in season 4.

  • “There is a dark turn in her that’s kind of frightening,” Maisie tells Entertainment Weekly. “She’s learning a lot from The Hound and she’s being heavily influenced by that. She’s so young, she’s like a sponge and getting knowledge. She’s heavily influenced by people around her. Being next to The Hound she’s learning his brutal ways.” Maisie adds that while the duo may try to help each other, Arya is “still awful to him and pulls on his strings and he’s very brutal and physical with her.”
  • Arya recognizes that the Hound may have developed a soft spot for her after saving her from the Red Wedding, says the actress in an interview with Zap2It. “He could have just let her run in there and get herself killed, but he hit her over the head, which actually was the better option.” She also tells Zap2It that Arya is “more ruthless now and she’s not scared of how she’s going to feel about things anymore because nothing, there’s just nothing there.”
  • Maisie sat down  recently for a very frank interview with Buzzfeed, discussing the ups and down of fame, schooling, and red carpets. The 16 year old actress shared her initial shock in learning about the Red Wedding, long before her popular Vine video. “It was just like, Why would they kill my family?” she tells Buzzfeed. “And then, in reading the script and growing up on this show and reading articles about Game of Thrones and talking to fans and stuff, I’ve now realized why good guys die. It’s a twisted world.”

And in other news, there’s a special treat for A Song of Ice and Fire readers this week- a new sample chapter from The Winds of Winter has been posted! The chapter is entitled “Mercy.” To say anymore would spoil those not as far along in the series, so visit George R.R. Martin’s website to read the chapter.

Ours is the Fury:  Just a reminder that all discussion of The Winds of Winter (and anything that hasn’t been revealed on Game of Thrones yet) must be covered by spoiler coding!


226 Comments

  1. Ramah
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Hodor?

    Hmm, I’m still debating whether to read that new chapter or not. I usually avoid them so as not to spoil my reading experience but this one really has me intrigued.

    Any opinions on it already? Without spoiling anything of course.

  2. Nymeria Sand
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, I’d hardly say she feels ‘nothing’ since she’s considered to a very angry character that still longs for the family she lost and wants to seek revenge for them.

  3. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    I’m guessing this means he approves of the show’s depiction of the Titan.

  4. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Nymeria Sand,

    I think it’s the idea of her having a “hole where her heart used to be” that’s repeated so often in the books. So I think it’s more the idea of her being heartless than her not feeling anger or lusting for vengeance.

  5. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Without spoiling anything, I think that the new chapter is very well-written. That’s not to say that everything in it made me feel delightful, but that should be obvious given the nature of the series so far.

  6. Alex
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    That was an awesome chapter, her best since ASOS in my opinion.

  7. Nymeria Sand
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    She quite clearly says she doesn’t care how to feel about things because there’s ‘nothing there’. Maisie hasn’t read the books so I’m assuming she means Arya has no feelings. And Catelyn has a similar line in ACoK. Did she feel nothing after her family died as well? I’m not talking about Stoneheart.

  8. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Ramah,

    In my opinion, this one was far more entertaining than past samples, and it’s also a lot more relevant to the main plot. By the end of it you sort of realize it’s a prelude to some fairly major plot progression. So, perhaps you may not want to read it. Lol. It also gives a ton of insight into a familiar character and how that character has progressed. And there’s a fabulous line in it that makes you do a sort of internal cheer.
    It’s also extremely vulgar, though, and there’s a ton of names and places that are totally unfamiliar and confusing.

    For those who read it and don’t know exactly what I mean by a prelude to something major:
    I’m assuming this is the moment or at least a few Arya chapters before Arya heads back to Westeros, as the Westerosi envoys and the death of Raff/Arya being a faceless man offer her a perfect opportunity.

  9. Turri
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Great chapter, TWOW is really shaping up to be another ASOS.

    Interesting how D&D have obviously used an idea from this chapter in Season 4, now that’s gonna fan the flames of “does the show start to spoil the books?” discussions.

  10. Nymeria Sand
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    LOL this interview, though. Like when has Arya ever been bitter about her family not sending a search party for her or doubting Jon’s love? She firmly believes that Jon would always take her no matter what and that’s why she wanted to go to the Wall when she left aboard the ship.
    And obviously Arya has no control in getting back to her family because they’re all either presumed dead, known to be dead, being held hostage/missing, and are sworn brothers of the watch. This isn’t Arya choice.

  11. Canis Dirus
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Alex,

    Not to be that guy… (he says, while being that guy)… but even though it’s rather coincidental the chapter preview is included at the bottom of an article about Arya, some people may not want to even know WHO the POV of the chapter is, so you may want to spoiler tag your “her”…. Once again, sorry for being that guy. I typically do not consider myself spoiler police

  12. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Nymeria Sand,

    I think we’re just interpreting it differently. Lol. Nothing you just said convinced me that she meant that Arya doesn’t feel sad about her family dying. When people say they’ve become “heartless” it’s because they were able to feel so sad about something that they don’t feel happiness or sympathy or love anymore. Plus, she specifically says that Arya will still feel things – “she’s not scared of how she’s going to feel about things.”

    Anyway, neither of us knows how she meant it, which means you could easily be right. And this is super trivial besides. I’m just saying there’s more than one way of interpreting Maisie saying that “there’s nothing there.”

    Edit: I also didn’t read the interview so if anything I said is contradicted in there, feel free to call me out haha. I’m just going off of the little quotes they put up on here.

  13. Nymeria Sand
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    Lol you were the one who replied to my initial comment. Read what you will.

  14. Deric Bonbarrion
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Anyone else having trouble getting his site to load? I’m on pins and needles wanting to read this new chapter and can’t get the site up.

  15. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Wut

  16. Ellaria
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Why is everyone always so hostile on this website? Every single post I click on there’s just people bickering in the comments. Not targeted at anyone here, just literally every post without fail is nothing but people being rude to one another. We’re all fans, this is a fan website and all these things we argue about are totally subjective.. why can’t we just have a civil discussion about the show

  17. Satin
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Shan,

    I thought she meant it more in the way of everything that happened to Arya being so much that she’s just numb and can’t really feel sad – and that Arya likes that, because it seems to hurt less. Which is a reaction that seems very psychologically sound. I mean, in modern times we’d say she likely has PTSD, and on top of that an overwhelming sense of grief and possibly even survivor’s guilt. Kid would need therapy yesterday (and before anyone says it’s medieval times, thus different, even people in olden times got psychological issues from war and violence and such. That didn’t suddenly start to happen when psychiatrists came up.)

  18. Ellaria
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Sorry. Didn’t mean to burst into a “why can’t we be friends” moment of tears there LOL it’s just that I and many people go on websites like this to talk with other fans and this one just always seems to be hostile and scary lmfao

  19. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Well, I think the line about the bloody quill of Phario Forel is going to breathe new life into the speculation that Syrio is alive. That, along with the mention of the third sword of Braavos and the fact that the play is about the coup following Robert’s death, of which Syrio had first hand knowledge, obviously, is just too juicy not to speculate on. Or it might just be George pulling at out expectations and theories. It’s fun ether way.

  20. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Nymeria Sand:
    LOLthis interview, though. Like when has Arya ever been bitter about her family notsending a search party for her or doubting Jon’s love? She firmly believes that Jon would always take her no matter what and that’s why she wanted to go to the Wall when she left aboard the ship.
    And obviously Arya has no control in getting back to her family because they’re all either presumed dead, known to be dead, being held hostage/missing, and are sworn brothers of the watch. This isn’t Arya choice.

    So, whats your point exactly ?

  21. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    Yep, that’s pretty much how I interpreted it! Haha. I was just trying to argue that Maisie isn’t trying to say that Arya isn’t angry or revenge-driven, she was just trying to say.. well, exactly what you just said.

  22. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    There is no “new” Winds of winter chapter, its just Dance with Dragons leftovers like the rest of the “new” WOW chapters.

    How the hell does GRRM plan to finish the goddamn story in 2 books if he uses an entire chapter just to kill Raff who is important to the main storyline about as much as Moonboy.

    Christ sake he uses 3 to 4 POV/chapters just to describe the battle for Mereen …

  23. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Ellaria,

    Welcome to life. Please enjoy your stay.

  24. mal
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Ellaria,

    shut up! how dare you! just kidding

  25. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Ellaria:
    Sorry. Didn’t mean to burst into a “why can’t we be friends” moment of tears there LOL it’s just that I and many people go on websites like this to talk with other fans and this one just always seems to be hostile and scary lmfao

    You should try westeros.org, there is a thread derailed like every 3 pages and people there do anything but talk about whats the thread about and instead post all kinds of dumb shit .

  26. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Yep, their only option was to drink heavily and beat their kids.

    Satin: we’d say she likely has PTSD, and on top of that an overwhelming sense of grief and possibly even survivor’s guilt. Kid would need therapy yesterday (and before anyone says it’s medieval times, thus different, even people in olden times got psychological issues from war and violence and such. That didn’t suddenly start to happen when psychiatrists came up.)

      

  27. Titan's Bastard
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Why don’t you cover this with spoiler coding, Ours is the Fury? Cover it real good.

  28. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Or maybe Forel is the “Smith” of Braavos. Or maybe (and I know this is crazy talk) it’s just a relative.

    Howland Reed:
    Well, I think the line about the bloody quill of Phario Forel is going to breathe new life into the speculation that Syrio is alive. That, along with the mention of the third sword of Braavos and the fact that the play is about the coup following Robert’s death, of which Syrio had first hand knowledge, obviously, is just too juicy not to speculate on.Or it might just be George pulling at out expectations and theories. It’s fun ether way.

  29. Ellaria
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    I can’t even navigate westeros.org to find the news stories.

  30. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Oh, absolutely that’s possible, knowing George. But the association of the bloody quill with a bloody sword is so suggestive, damn it. The quill is as mighty as the sword and it would be so cheeky if Syrio took up a different but equally potent weapon. But even as I say it I begin to doubt myself.

  31. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    I think this chapter was intended to be a gateway for Arya to get back to Westeros. I think Raff was just an added bonus.

    But then again, when I think about the fact that this was removed from ADWD, I can’t imagine he had initially planned for her to go back to KL that early.

    THEN AGAIN… if this was removed from ADWD, how was Arya already full blown FM out of training? IDK halp

  32. Walter Harrow
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Maisie Williams is doing a fantastic job as Arya (and comes across great in interviews/panels etc). I really hope she becomes one of the most featured actors on the show over the next few years. Arya in Braavos could be some of the best content in the show so i hope D&D spend a lot of time with her in Season 5. There should be fewer stories to follow in season 5 so it would be great to expand on Arya’s time in Braavos and take advantage of a new setting

  33. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Arya “Late for her Rape” Stark and the Floppy Purple Bulbous Weiner Band!!!!!

  34. Satin
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    don’t forget war. They could always wage war.

    Ellaria,

    sometimes it gets a bit overly cranky, but I fear that’s just the internet, plus some extra fan intensity.

  35. SyrioForel
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Arya “Late for her Rape” Stark and the Floppy Purple Bulbous Weiner Band!!!!!

    She’s late, she’s late, for a very important rape!

    So not funny tho

  36. Satin
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,
    SyrioForel,

    turning a bit creepy right now, maybe tone it down a little? I for one would be grateful.

  37. Cersei's Brain
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    May the Seven shine light down upon each and every one of you. I am blessed just to be able to read your kind words of wisdom. And I am sure GRRM would say the same.

  38. Fred Lannister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    One thing I like about the sample chapter is the parallels that GRRM is drawing between Tyrion (as played by Bobono) and Richard III. The opening soliloquy of the play – or what we see of it anyway – very much brings to mind “Now is the Winter of our Discontent” where Richard tells himself he is unsuited to be “hero” . . . does anyone else see this as telling, given Tyrion’s “current” state and where his arc might be headed?

  39. GerB40
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Siobhán Mooney,

    It’s been too long since readers were properly shocked. The newly released chapter should suffice though :-)

  40. SyrioForel
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    You’re right LOL that was bad I shall delete

    Edit: too late

  41. helena
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    I read the Arya chapter and honestly, I wasn’t impressed. There was way too much description (it felt like most of the chapter was spent on the journey from the room to the Gate), nothing really interesting happened until the very end and even that moment lacked intensity, it was written in a very distant way.

  42. Shan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    There’s actually a fantastic essay about asoiaf and PTSD in Beyond the Wall (a collection of published GOT essays). I know Theon was used as the major example but I think (could be wrong) that they juxtaposed his ptsd with Arya’s

  43. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Fred Lannister,

    The association of Tyrion and Richard III was evident from the beginning and I doubt that the fate of one will be reflective of the other. His family often views Tyrion as a kind of Richard, Jeoffrey’s supposed murder by Tyrion can be a kind of reference to the murder of the two princes in Shakespeare, but we the readers know that these are problems of perception and Tyrion is anything but a monster and Richard is nothing like Tyrion. I doubt the fate of Tyrion will be to die in battle for an unjust cause while bellowing for his horse. Martin makes his tapestry out of many threads and some analogies are there only as starting kernels and are very limited when trying to expand on them. X happens to Richard does not mean that X will happen to Tyrion.

  44. Fred Lannister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Howland Reed,

    I’m certainly not saying that Tyrion’s eventual fate will mirror Richard’s I’m just talking about Tyrion’s internal arc.

    I know that there are many (mostly show-only people) who who hold out in hopes of seeing him emerge as one of the central “heroes” at the end of the series, but I feel like that’s not destined to happen.

  45. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    GRRM saw the backslash that happend when he tried to push for extra seasons of AFFC/DWD so he is trying to lobby for it again by releasing this Arya chapter but so far the only people to like it are the Westeros.org fanatics.

    This is no material that would justify devoting more screen time to Braavos.

    Dany and Jon are the only thing that matters.
    All else is just a sideshow and somehow GRRM made it more improtant than it should be and lost track and pacing of the real story that began with the first book.

    But i trust in David and Dan to see what should be on TV and what belongs solely to the books and fanatics that worship anything GRRM serves no matter how slow paced and pointless it is.

  46. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Yep, their only option was to drink heavily and beat their kids.

    And yet- some survive winter, unexplainable madness, and war, and become loving parents who only drink heavily while on vacation. Just look at Eddard.

    10.

  47. Malys Blackfyre
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    When Raff said “you have to carry me” I just about shit myself

    good thing I read it yesterday because the website is down

    Beneath the gold, the bitter steel

  48. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    The sideshow is what makes this series great. Without it you have zombies and dragons and we are back to Tolkien imitators and the Shannara crap. Breathe Hoyti! and let the series breathe!

  49. The Loon
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    Dany is absolutely awful…she’s a terrible character and needs to die…her dragons deserve better

  50. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Howland Reed:
    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    The sideshow is what makes this series great. Without it you have zombies and dragons and we are back to Tolkien imitators and the Shannara crap.Breathe Hoyti! and let the series breathe!

    It would be fine if it was just Arya, but its Pyke, Dorne, Brianne´s walk trough he woods, Aegon, Tyrion traveling and counting turtles …..

    Star Wars had one “Bobba Fett” but ASOIAF has ten “Bobba Fetts” and we get to know what each of them eat and how they travel.

    Enough is enough. Get on with the goddamn story.

  51. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Ellaria,

    If you’re on some other GoT site that isn’t customarily this hostile, please, tell me where it is. I’ll keep coming here for news but post there far more frequently. All I know is to avoid Westeros.org because it seems far worse.

  52. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    The Loon:
    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    Dany is absolutely awful…she’s a terrible character and needs to die…her dragons deserve better

    Yea… but i meant get Dany moving to westeros, not have her sit in Mereen …

  53. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    Did we read the same chapter? I felt like that was that character’s best in ages. And what? Jon and Dany are the only thing that matters? Are you… is this sarcasm or what? At absolute feverish minimum what about Tyrion?

    Man, this just sounds like some weird militant show-only statement to me.

  54. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Ellaria,

    HAHAH your post is so nice! I honestly felt good reading it :)

    But I should admit that the pull of Wic.net has always been the balance between the opposing factions of the fandom. You don’t really get that anywhere else. You’ll get some extremes with probable censorship (see westeros) or you’ll get the dark side (IWC?) but not this. Not truly IMO. (Maybe ToH, but I would not know, I was never into that website)

    And yes, it gets heated. People take a step back and then come back again for a new round and in between you have moments of peace. I don’t think this place has really changed that much since ADwD has been released. And it is still just as interesting to be or lurk here!

    As for the chapter preview: I am getting on board with the crackpot theory that Arya really had a target with Izembaro! and that it could very well be that Westeros envoy. I just realized the Kindly Man sent her to the mummer’s troupe for her “apprenticeship”. So it could totally be the Westeros envoy! why else would Arya think about him amongst the first things when waking up?. And I see I only said Westeros envoy 2 times and hence not reached the 3 times Martin quota… Corrected! :P

    “Mercy, Mercy, Mercy!”

  55. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Jeff O’Connor,

    Tyrion from DWD is not he same Tyrion as in the first 3 books.


    Penny, turtles, where do w. go? ….
    Season 4 is going to be action packed. But whats left of action for season 5? Nothing.


    Season 5 will have to feature battle for Mereen or Winterfell to keep the shows momentum.

  56. Tatters
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    I pity you, come cry on my shoulder.

  57. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    I agree there: we need some of that momentum somehow.

  58. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Jeff O’Connor,

    It is a glimpse of the horrifying future to come. The show watchers will go to the book reader forums and spoil things from the show. They will vehemently tell them they are idiots and should “just watch the show, it’s so much better.” What was sown shall be reaped in full.

  59. Malys Blackfyre
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Its quite apparent some of you people didn’t have to wait eleven years for a Tyrion chapter

    NOW YOU KNOW MY PAIN MUHAHAHAHAHA

  60. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Malys Blackfyre:
    Its quite apparent some of you people didn’t have to wait eleven years for a Tyrion chapter

    NOW YOU KNOW MY PAIN MUHAHAHAHAHA

    Like this:
    http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130408071436/gameofthrones/images/e/ef/TheonS3x02.jpg

    :)))))

  61. Kilgore Tully
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Turri:

    Interesting how D&D have obviously used an idea from this chapter in Season 4, now that’s gonna fan the flames of “does the show start to spoil the books?” discussions.

    My thoughts exactly!

    For anyone interested in knowing what we are talking about, the following is a spoiler from the upcoming premiere. It is part of a really awesome moment, and unless you really, really don’t care about spoilers (as in, you’d read the script if you could), skip.

    I’m just including this line as a buffer for those with spoilers turned off.

    (I had an episode of Boardwalk spoiled because I have spoilers off and couldn’t hit the brakes on reading.)

    (It sucked.)

    (So, also, please don’t quote this if you respond.)

    Arya kills Polliver very much like she kills Raff in the chapter, by calmly and coldly quoting his lines to Lommy back at him before stabbing him in the throat. It plays incredibly well on screen, and I was left with the impression that it fit Maisie’s portrayal better than going ballistic would have. I’m encouraged at what it means for the adaptation, too. That they’ll rearrange elements before outright changing them (we even got the stabby-stabby element last year). So the show just isn’t going to have this scene at all, but we won’t really miss out on the best part. Consolidation and efficiency. Maybe they really can do seventy episodes without losing all the cool parts.

    And I did not think the show spoiled this scene. At all. I actually got more excited when I realized the parallel. Like, “Oh man oh man oh man, I know how this ends! … YESSS!!!”

  62. Hounded
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    You’re stating this like fact – remember – its only your opinion. I thought the chapter was great and I’m no westeros.org fanatic (I have never once posted there in my life). Perhaps try reading it again and keep an eye out for some of the veiled meanings and hints. It’s very clever in how it references other areas of the story. Far more is going on than what it seems on face value.

  63. Azzy Mahmood
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    I’ve only seen about a week’s worth of your posts, but you come across as someone who really doesn’t like either the books nor the author. If that’s untrue, may I ask you what you do actually like about the books? I’m not being a douche, I’m genuinely interested :)

  64. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    So i assume nobody cares about spoilers anymore ?

  65. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Hounded:
    Hoyti Von Totiy,
    and keep an eye out for some of the veiled meanings and hints. It’s very clever in how it references other areas of the story

    Feel free to write it here ill be glad to read it, couze i dont see it.

  66. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Azzy Mahmood,

    i LOVED the first 3 books and i DESPISE the last 2 books.

    Its as if after SOS everything slowed down got sidetracked and multiple side plotlines opend with no justified reason i can think of but to fill the gap made my the writers block on the main storyline.

    Mind you we are talking about a writer who had intended for a 5 year gap… got more than half the book finished and then scrapped it. If THAT dont sound the alarm nothing does.

  67. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    Jeff O’Connor,

    Tyrion from DWD is not he same Tyrion as in the first 3 books.


    Penny, turtles, where do w. go? ….
    Season 4 is going to be action packed. But whats left of action for season 5? Nothing.


    Season 5 will have to feature battle for Mereen or Winterfell to keep the shows momentum.

    But what if they dye his hair blonde again?

  68. Dolorous Ned
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    But Tyrion’s darker hair is a metaphor for his darker character arc!

  69. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    OT: Why the fuck is ‘Television Without Pity’ scrapping their forums? The unsullied thread on that site is the best on the internet and is a joy to read. What a bummer! I hope they find a new spot to chat about the show. I’d hate to miss their reaction to Tyrion’s killing spree.

  70. mal
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always had a strong feeling that Arya will end up killing a character we like. Someone from her list of names, a Lannister among them. Jaime is a strong contender. Because basically she can’t feel any sympathy or understanding of him based on his actions, she won’t know and if she does, she won’t care if he’s a different person. Either way, I think Jaime dies by the end of the book series. If not by Arya then in some kind of heroic, selfless way.

  71. Hounded
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    “trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.”

    - a tree that watched her as she ran. That’s obviously Bran searching for his sisters. This shows that Arya is still her true self in her dreams and that the Stark children have a connection in their dreams.

    “A bare scalp helped the wigs fit better, Izembaro claimed.”

    - Izembaro is a faceless man posing as a mummer (its possible that the real Izembaro was killed and replaced by the faceless man. We know that Varys was a mummer and he also shaves his head. Possible connection between Varys and the faceless men?

    The whole mummer’s play was really interesting with it being about the stuff happening in kings landing. Bobono the dwarf was obviously playing Tyrion and he’s written as a mis-formed villain much like Richard III. The play within the story thing is very Shakespeare. Izembaro is playing the fat King (obviously Robert Baratheon) and Arya is doing a rape scene with Bobono which implies that she’s playing Sansa. The fact that she doesn’t seem to even acknowledge this shows how far removed Arya is – her personality is buried deep deep down. However the sight of Raff the Sweetling brings her true self suddenly back to the surface as her desire to kill him becomes uncontrollable. Arya is REALLY dark now. Like serial killer dark. It’s interesting.

    The fact that the Westerosi envoy (chin tuft beard & rooster sigil = Harys Swyft) Harys Swyft is the master of coin on the small counsel and was sent to Braavos by Kevan Lannister to treat with the bankers. The link to this storyline is interesting as we know that the Braavosi bankers have now decided to back Stannis. How will the bankers receive Harys? Tell him to fuck off? Send King’s Landing his head? Or perhaps could a faceless man kill him and replace him? Then a faceless man could be on the small counsel in King’s Landing. The ship that Harys will return to westeros on could also be the transport for Arya to get back to westeros.

    Any of that interesting or are you still terribly bored by this whole ordeal of a chapter?

  72. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Hounded,

    You forgot the part where the 2 guards conclude there couldnt possibly be lemon trees in Bravoos since the city is in the north and the climate is wrong.

    So how can Dany remember a house with the red door and a lemon tree in Braavos?

    She was born and raised in Dorne it is known.

  73. House Mormont
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    This book will have to be so long we have:
    The released chapters, Theon I, Arianne I, Barristan I, Tyrion II and Arya I
    The read chapters, Tyrion I, Victarion I and Arianne II
    Then the confirmed but not read adwd chapters, Sansa I and Aeron I

    That’s 10 so far, with only 8 characters. We have 20 alive POV characters right now and if they all get 4-12 chapters the book’s gonna be huge! I’m expecting a lot of deaths

  74. House Mormont
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy: So how can Dany remember a house with the red door and a lemon tree in Braavos?

    She was born and raised in Dorne it is known.  

    :O holy dick

  75. Yago
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    And the fact one of the guards said “the queen will have his head if he doesn’t get their money” or something like that about Swyft, implying Cersei’s back in power

  76. helena
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Question about the chapter: why do people think Arya was playing Sansa?Arya was playing a rape victim in a play made to impress a westerosi envoy who works for the Lannisters, who think Sansa helped Tyrion kill Joffrey and is now a wanted criminal, why would they make Sansa look like a victim? in their eyes Sansa is a kingslayer, they have no reason to show Sansa in a position of weakness, (and there is also the fact people in asoiaf don’t think a husband can rape his wife). Arya was probably playing a random girl Tyrion rapes to show what a terrible monster he is.

  77. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    When Arya expresses a desire to see a dragon, it made me happy. I have a feeling that she will kill one of the dragons.

  78. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Then stop reading them and go away. No one here cares what a non-fan thinks; you’re not clever, you aren’t insightful. You’re pathetic and annoying.

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    Azzy Mahmood,

    i LOVED the first 3 books and i DESPISE the last 2 books.

    Its as if afterSOS everything slowed down got sidetracked and multiple side plotlines opend with no justified reason i can think of but to fill the gap made my the writers block on the main storyline.

    Mind you we are talking about a writer who had intended for a 5 year gap… got more than half the book finished and then scrapped it. If THAT dont sound the alarm nothing does.

  79. MRR
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Without spoilers, I thought “Mercy” was a great chapter. If it was in fact cut from ADWD and re-purposed for TWOW I think that was a good choice, as the chapter does an excellent job of reacquainting us with a certain situation. It works very well as an “intro” chapter, I think.

    I thought the chapter was really heart-wrenching as soon as they started to describe the play. A fat king, a dwarf, the “bloody hand”… realizing what the play was about, and what Arya’s “rape” scene was meant to portray was really pretty tragic, considering Arya’s position. Not a lot happens plot-wise, but I thought it was an absolutely beautiful moment of tragic irony.

    Nymeria Sand,

    I think what Maisie is describing is quite close to my reading of Arya from the books, which is that she becomes quite deeply depressed. You “feel” things in a depression, but your feeling is also somewhat numbed, with a pervasive sense of emptiness. I think that’s the sort of “nothing” Maisie was referring to, and I think it’s an apt statement; in any case, I’m not going to be overly-critical with a 16-year-old actress if she doesn’t use the perfect words to describe a character.

    Shan:
    how was Arya already full blown FM out of training? IDK halp

    She’s not. Izembaro is one of the Faceless Men, and so presumably Arya’s participation with the theatre company is part of her training. This seems quite practical; “magic” can only take you so far, but learning how to take on different mannerisms and how to work with different clothing would be important skills for an infiltrator.

  80. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    I love how so many people have decided that characters introduced in AFFC/ADWD are irrelevant. That’s a pretty big assumption. How about waiting for the series to conclude before deciding who was important?

  81. Blind Beth
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    helena:
    I read the Arya chapter and honestly, I wasn’t impressed. There was way too much description (it felt like most of the chapter was spent on the journey from the room to the Gate), nothing really interesting happened until the very end and even that moment lacked intensity, it was written in a very distant way.

    I loved it, and I thought it was very intense. Just the fact of Arya using feminine wiles to achieve her goal was a pretty big development.

    I think the mummers of Braavos should get their own spin-off series. But I am a sucker for ramshackle cities and renaissance-era theaters.

  82. House Mormont
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    i disagree with people saying that she goes back to being old Arya when she sees and kills Raff. This instance quite clearly contrasts the last time she stopped being “no one” and killed someone. Last time it was because Dareon broke his oath to Jon and spoke badly of Jon so she killed him for her love of House Stark and kept his boots out of pride. This time it’s not about family, she doesn’t even react to playing Sansa getting raped in a play. This time it’s about death, and vengeance, because that’s all that’s left of Arya now, death (and Nymeria)

  83. Blind Beth
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    MRR,

    *Is* Izembaro a FM, or just an FM training associate like Brusco and his daughters?

  84. Blind Beth
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Kilgore Tully,

    I agree with you 1000%. Well said.

    In other news, I thought Arya/Mercy was playing Shae–not Shae as we know her, but Shae as she presented herself at the trial. Even if Arya was supposed to be playing Sansa, Arya wouldn’t necessarily realize that. She’s been on radio silence for months.

  85. SHK12344
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    Rygar,

    But Tyrion’s darker hair is a metaphor for his darker character arc!

    Tyrion and Cerceis hair are actually red. I guess to represent bloody arc to their respective stories…..

  86. A
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    GRRM saw the backslash that happend when he tried to push for extra seasons of AFFC/DWD so he is trying to lobby for it again by releasing this Arya chapter but so far the only people to like it are the Westeros.org fanatics.

    This is no material that would justify devoting more screen time to Braavos.

    Dany and Jon are the only thing that matters.
    All else is just a sideshow and somehow GRRM made it more improtant than it should be and lost track and pacing of the real story that began with the first book.

    But i trust in David and Dan to see what should be on TV and what belongs solely to the books and fanatics that worship anything GRRM serves no matter how slow paced and pointless it is.

    If all you care for in this series is Daenerys and Jon, then I guess that says a lot about how much of a self titled “fan” you are.

  87. House Mormont
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous “five year gap,” her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS.

  88. A
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    Rygar,

    But Tyrion’s darker hair is a metaphor for his darker character arc!

    And what about Jaime’s darker/shorter hair? Also a metaphor for a darker character arc? Somehow I doubt it.

  89. cosca
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    You can very much be a fan of the series and hate the last two books. You don’t get to decide who the “real” fans are, sorry.

  90. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:

    The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous “five year gap,” her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS.

    This sticks it to the foolish people who think Arya is on her way to Westeros after this chapter.

  91. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    cosca:
    KG,

    You can very much be a fan of the series and hate the last two books. You don’t get to decide who the “real” fans are, sorry.

    and you can dance if you want to, you can leave your friends behind because your friends don’t dance and if they don’t dance then they’re no friends of mine

  92. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: and you can dance if you want to,you can leave your friends behind because your friends don’t dance and if they don’t dance then they’re no friends of mine

    Someone is certainly acting real rude and totally removed, but I am too polite to say whom.

    On topic: didn’t have a beat, couldn’t dance to it. 4 out of 10 for the new chapter. Most points lost due to being incredibly rapey. He is George Rape Rape Martin after all.

  93. Greenjones
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Where did those HD production photos on wicnet tumblr come from? Does anyone know?

    Also there’s HD versions of last week’s featurettes on the Game of Thrones youtube channel if Fury could kindly make stills…

  94. MRR
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth,

    I double-checked on awoiaf, and they seem to think so. The last paragraph of her “Ugly Little Girl” chapter in ADWD says that she’ll be starting her “first apprenticeship” with Izembaro, and that implies that he’s different from the other “associates” she’s dealt with before.

    House Mormont,

    Spoiler tags, perhaps?

  95. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    I have all the rights there are. It’s called “logic.”

    If you hate the latest books, and hate what you’ve seen of the upcoming one, then you can’t call yourself a fan anymore.

    cosca:
    KG,

    You can very much be a fan of the series and hate the last two books. You don’t get to decide who the “real” fans are, sorry.

  96. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    I have all the rights there are. It’s called “logic.”

    If you hate the latest books, and hate what you’ve seen of the upcoming one, then you can’t call yourself a fan anymore.

    KG, I love you more than most, but thats just silly talk, you goose.

    Try telling that to any Cubs fan or Mets fan or Islanders fan. Or any other FAN that once loved something that was great that is now mediocre or shitty. They are still fans.

  97. Abyss
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I’ll do it and post them here. ;-)

  98. Rabid Grunt
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    “You can very much be a fan of the series and hate the last two books.”

    Maybe in a world where series means something else, but not so much here. If you hate 2/5 of a series, then reason would stand that you in fact like three books, but not the series as a whole. Someone who hates the last two is really a fan of GoT, CoK and SoS, not ASOIAF. It the next few books come out and he loves them, and forgives the two he hates now, then things might be different. But not as it stands.

  99. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Ditto! Also, ONLY caring about Jon and Dany, the two characters most closely associated with genre typical magic elements (at least in terms of proximity) and dismissing other storylines as a ‘sideshow’ as Hoyti has done, means that you were never really a fan but instead a mindless consumer.

  100. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Don’t be ridiculous, Ry!

    You can’t call yourself still a Cubs fan if you’ve stopped watching because Moisés Alou didn’t make that catch in NCLS Game 6 bc Bartman interfered back in 2003 against the Marlins! It is known. #CubsFanForLife

  101. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Strider,

    The Cubs bit was for you sweets

  102. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Hounded,

    I loved the remnants of her wolf dream, particularly the trees watching her… Are we to assume Bran recognizes her as Nymeria? And what does he see/know of her now in Braavos? (weirwood door of the house of black and white) IF Varys is a faceless man, or the head of the FM (not totally convinced, but some evidence is mounting up), he would therefore have something to do with Arya’s training. If he is also a part of the conspiracy to put a blackfyre on the throne… does this mean Arya and Bran could end up at odds, given Bloodraven’s history, and his new disciple?

    This chapter is actually opening up a lot of ideas I haven’t considered…

  103. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite,

    Mr. Sprite, don’t worry. Once he gets his stuff in order where he’s needed most, your friend Mr. Whitehead will no doubt join the fray!

  104. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Strider:
    Rygar,

    Don’t be ridiculous, Ry!

    You can’t call yourself still a Cubs fan if you’ve stopped watching because Moisés Alou didn’t make that catch in NCLS Game 6 bc Bartman interfered back in 2003 against the Marlins! It is known. #CubsFanForLife

    Moisty Alou pees on his hands. It is known.

  105. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    The fact that a professional sports team can be objectively bad makes this a poor analogy.

  106. Greenjones
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    AHA!

  107. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,
    I did not want to give myself too much credit, Ry. I was told not to do that! But then I saw the mediocre/ shitty part and had no doubt for whom it was meant…

  108. House Mormont
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    itd make a lot of sense for varys to have something to do with her training, jaqen was in the black cells of kl, where varys is a jailer, and a faceless man doesnt just happen to be captured, he was going to the wall for a reason

  109. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Strider:
    Rygar,

    Don’t be ridiculous, Ry!

    You can’t call yourself still a Cubs fan if you’ve stopped watching because Moisés Alou didn’t make that catch in NCLS Game 6 bc Bartman interfered back in 2003 against the Marlins! It is known. #CubsFanForLife

    And another thing! If Alou hadn’t lost his damned mind at the borderline interference and infected the team with his negative vibe, the Cubs win the damned series and (probably) the championship.

    #deadtome #billbuckner’sgotnothingonMoisty

  110. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere:
    Rygar,

    The fact that a professional sports team can be objectively bad makes this a poor analogy.

    How so? The point was FANS and what constitutes one. Not whether one or the other is subjective or objective.

    And I chose those teams because they were once great and now shoddy, exactly as Cosca views the books now.

  111. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Ah you liked the “George Rape Rape Martin”, eh? You’re welcome ;)

    (it’s the Safety Da .. ANCE!)

    He is George Rape Rape Martin after all.

  112. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite: Moisty Alou pees on his hands. It is know.

    Are you going to stick to that shit FOREVER?! GET OVER IT! It was one time. You cannot say “pees” like he pees on his bat on a regular basis!

    It’s like you’d say Martin work sucks all the time when he probably only sucked (for you) writing Dance!

  113. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    You are correct. And if you don’t believe that a team can just be BAD from start to finish, top to bottom, side to side, and back to front …

    Permit me to enter into evidence: the Detroit Lions.

    haltwhogoesthere:
    The fact that a professional sports team can be objectively bad makes this a poor analogy.

  114. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere:
    Rygar,

    The fact that a professional sports team can be objectively bad makes this a poor analogy.

    Plenty of flat-earthers out there that think the Lakers are still a good team. Or the Cleveland Browns, Duke Blue Devils and the et ceteras.

    I can still hear their chants of “Wait ’til next year. Wait ’til next year. Wait ’til next year”.

    See? It’s a perfect analogy.

  115. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Strider: Are you going to stick to that shit FOREVER?!GET OVER IT! It was one time. You cannot say “pees” like he pees on his bat on a regular basis!

    It’s like you’d say Martin work sucks all the time when he probably only sucked (for you) writing Dance!

    Wait, pee pee hands? That sounds like a character GRRM came up with.

  116. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    A sports team’s performance can be broken down into numbers, which can then be compared to their peers. It’s not a matter of opinion if a team is bad. In that case, your feelings/opinions are capable of being distinct from the reality. Thus you can say they’re bad and still be a fan. You can’t do that with something that is subjective. There is no separation from your opinion and the reality. Because your opinion IS the reality. If you say that around 50 percent of it was bad and you are not excited for what’s coming, you’re saying you don’t like it. In other words, you aren’t a fan. Obviously, it’s possible to not think something is perfect and still like it. But when you’re saying that 40+ percent of the thing is trash you don’t like or care about, I don’t really see how that can qualify as being a fan.

  117. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    Thank you. I get that and fully understand the difference between subjective and objective without your explanation, which was exemplary I may add. But that still misses my point.

  118. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    Fan is short for fanatic. You are trying to control the conversation by limiting the language. Take the Duke Blue Devils, they were highly touted, but lacked a decent center (much like GM) and lost early.

    Similar to how ADWD lost to a mid-major during the Hugo Awards. In fact, it finished last. Maybe even behind “none of the above”. Mercer to Duke is the same as Jo Walton is to George Martin.

  119. Commenter
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Wow, the weiner description in that new chapter is straight out of the South Park joke. Those writers are scary good at predicting pop culture.

  120. Howland Reed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    The degree of dislike is also key here. I also ‘dislike’ books 4 and 5 when speaking relatively about book 3 say, but I am far, far from HATING them as it has been suggested above. If you LOVE 1,2,3 and HATE, I mean really HATE (again as has been suggested above) 4 and 5, something is wrong. And questioning ones status as a fan under these circumstances seems legitimate to me.

  121. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Commenter:
    Wow, the weiner description in that new chapter is straight out of the South Park joke. Those writers are scary good at predicting pop culture.

    Mos def

  122. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    Strider: Are you going to stick to that shit FOREVER?!GET OVER IT! It was one time. You cannot say “pees” like he pees on his bat on a regular basis!

    It was almost a ritual for him. Urine therapy. He thought it toughened his hands so he could grip the bat better. You didn’t know this? You are no true fan.

  123. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Wait, pee pee hands?That sounds like a character GRRM came up with.

    Hahah no, that does NOT sound like an ASoIaF name to me!

    You know, Ry.. I’m reading the comments and have to say that when you and Mr. Sprite double-team on a subject in a thread, it should come with a warning sign: All ye who enter, beware!

  124. Malys Blackfyre
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    So, what happens if R+L=J ISN’T the case,
    and Jon is Ashara/Lemores and Brandon Starks?

    and Aegon is Rheagar and Lyanna’s child

    that would make Jon not so important, right?

    THE BITTER STEEL

  125. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Strider: Hahah no, that does NOT sound like an ASoIaF name to me!

    You know, Ry.. I’m reading the comments and have to say that when you and Mr. Sprite double-team on a subject in a thread, it should come with a warning sign: All ye who enter, beware!

    We’re all friends here. You can call me by my first name.

  126. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Yes, I’ve considered this… Syrio potentially ending up in a black cell?, (Trant lived, yes? Wasn’t that who he fought during her escape?) and then…. (insert unknown history maybe involving Varys)… Jaqen- following, protecting, sending her on her path… Pardon my ignorance, I know there are lot’s of Syrio theories, but I have spent little and less time navigating parchment.org

    But what is the connection between Varys and Bloodraven? Is this really about getting the proper bloodline back on the throne? Illyrio gives a Targ some dragon eggs, and this is no longer a game for just two players…

  127. Lurker
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Wow, y’all are so pretentious. How about if someone wants to call themselves a fan, and considers themselves a fan, they are a fan? And if they don’t want to call themselves a fan, they aren’t? Crazy, I know.

    I think anyone who dedicates large chunks of their free time to debating the minutiae of any given subject online deserves to call themselves a fan.

  128. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite,

    You are no friend of mine Mr. Sprite! No first name basis here!!!!

    Your knowledge of Moisés Alou peeing habits is freaking me out. LOL

    I know of only one occurrence. And I’m still a Cubs fan. Peeing on hands for bat adherence may be ugly and creepy but is hardcore. Better than giving up after 2003 because you cannot handle your team losing.

    Kind of like being an ASoIaF fan, you may not like all chapter, or all characters and the way they are written. But you just don’t up and give up yet still call yourself a fan.

    Cosca is still one because he still read the damn last 2 books no matter how awful he thought they were. My hats off to him.

  129. AngryRosFan
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    helena:
    Question about the chapter: why do people think Arya was playing Sansa?Arya was playing a rape victim in a play made to impress a westerosi envoy who works for the Lannisters, who think Sansa helped Tyrion kill Joffrey and is now a wanted criminal, why would they make Sansa look like a victim? in their eyes Sansa is a kingslayer, they have no reason to show Sansa in a position of weakness, (and there is also the fact people in asoiaf don’t think a husband can rape his wife). Arya was probably playing a random girl Tyrion rapes to show what a terrible monster he is.

    House Mormont:
    i disagree with people saying that she goes back to being old Arya when she sees and kills Raff. This instance quite clearly contrasts the last time she stopped being “no one” and killed someone. Last time it was because Dareon broke his oath to Jon and spoke badly of Jon so she killed him for her love of House Stark and kept his boots out of pride. This time it’s not about family, she doesn’t even react to playing Sansa getting raped in a play. This time it’s about death, and vengeance, because that’s all that’s left of Arya now, death (and Nymeria)

    I think it is about “family” in the sense that Lommy was a sort of brother to Arya, along with Gendry and Hot Pie. She was able to avenge one person who meant something to her by killing Raff. That being said, unless there is something in the books stating that Arya knew Sansa was married to Tyrion (it may have but I don’t remember it, I can’t see how she would know that the part she played of the rape victim was meant to be her Sansa or have an emotional reaction to it.

  130. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    We have derailed this thread.

  131. Cumsprite
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    Strider,

    I had something, but I lost it. Damn you, beer!

  132. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Wow. Reading through this, my first thought was Detroit. 57 years and only ONE playoff win!!!

    Objectively bad

  133. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    We have derailed this thread.

    I agree! The person who brought the sports teams and their fans into discussion should get a warning. And his posts should be deleted.

    So how about that crackpot theory that Arya was suppose to take out Harry Swift?!

  134. Strider
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite:
    Strider,

    I had something, but I lost it. Damn you, beer!

    I can’t work with this, Mr. Sprite!

    When you have your A game on and would like a rematch (on topic) you know where to find me.

  135. Myra
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Wow. That really harsh. But thanks proving just how horrible the people on this site are

  136. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Myra,

    You better be happy you edited that.

  137. DEATHDREAMS
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Myra,

    Jesus! Are you trying to get kg to kill himself?! That’s not being a nice person.
    on another note, I need a clarification on the sample chapter. Is Lady Stork the name of the character in the play (which would be interesting), or the name of the actor?

  138. Yago
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    DEATHDREAMS,

    name of the actress playing Cersei apparently

  139. Dolorous Ned
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    More info on the chapter from the man himself:

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/362384.html

    So this would have been the first Arya chapter after the 5 year gap. That explains many things. A 16-year-old Arya seducing Raff seems much more plausible (and much less creepy). And while I loved the chapter, there seemed to me kind of a big jump between her last one and “Mercy”. Makes sense if this was originally written before her AFFC/ADWD chapters with a teenager in mind.

  140. DEATHDREAMS
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Great! Now the first part of my comment doesn’t make any sense.

    Yago,

    Thanks

  141. Abyss
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Here you go. I took about a hundred stills from the featurettes. Just click trough the pages to see all of them. Some are a little blurry, because the camera was out of focus or the movement was simply to fast, but over all they do the job. ;-)

  142. Greenjones
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    Wow, that’s a lot of photos. You should be involved in getting content to the wicnet tumblr.

  143. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Yes. They are a seething black hole of badness and misery in the heart of a metropolitan area that knows badness and misery when they see it.

    Stupid Lions (sigh)

  144. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Looks like I missed something amusing?

    Remember that time a guy threatened to shoot me? Fun times, fun times.

    DEATHDREAMS:
    Myra,

    Jesus!Are you trying to get kg to kill himself?! That’s not being a nice person.on another note,I need a clarification on the sample chapter.Is Lady Stork the name of the character in the play (which would be interesting), or the name of the actor?

  145. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    I have all the rights there are. It’s called “logic.”

    If you hate the latest books, and hate what you’ve seen of the upcoming one, then you can’t call yourself a fan anymore.

    I usually like your posts but this was a pretty dumb one to say the least, so just because you think something is not as great as before that means you are not a real fan, this logic of yours doesnt make sense .

  146. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    So you are saying that when you start using the word “hate” you can still consider yourself a fan? That makes no sense.

    Tyrionisthebest: I usually like your posts but this was a pretty dumb one to say the least, so just because you think something is not as great as before that means you are not a real fan, this logic of yours doesnt make sense .

  147. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt,

    So your point is people should worship absolutely every book of a series to be a fan ? What about a movie series ,if i think that part 2 of a movie is crap but the next one redeems itself i am still not a fan ?

  148. cosca
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Anyone who’s favorite character is Dany is not a real fan. I know that because I hate Dany.

    Oh, you disagree? Sorry, it’s “logic” bud, irrefutable. No argument needed, just “logic”.

    Anyone who doesn’t love the Star Wars prequels is not a true fan.

    Am I doing it right?

  149. Ours is the Fury
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    How about people stop calling each other’s posts stupid and things along that vein?

  150. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    “Worship?” No. But when there are five books out, you state that you absolutely hate two of them and you are already yelling that you hate the unreleased sixth book, then you are at the 50% mark.

    There’s a huge difference between “I liked that one book” and “I am a fan of his bookS.” You are being willfully ignorant if you deny that difference exists.

    Tyrionisthebest:
    Rabid Grunt,

    So your point is people should worship absolutely every book of a series to be a fan ? What about a movie series ,if i think that part 2 of a movie is crap but the next one redeems itself i am still not a fan ?

  151. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    No, cosca – you aren’t doing it right. In fact, this was a laughably bad attempt.

    By your argument, I would be saying that anyone who likes the books is not a fan because I hate the books. My argument is that if you hate nearly half of the entire output of a writer’s work, you cannot call yourself a fan of those works.

    Please, try harder next time. This was deeply disappointing.

    cosca:
    KG,

    Anyone who’s favorite character is Dany is not a real fan. I know that because I hate Dany.

    Am I doing it right?

  152. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Would be lovely, wouldn’t it?

  153. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    This is HILARIOUS!

    9.

  154. cosca
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    What you are arguing is that people not liking the parts of the book you liked, means they aren’t fans, by a metric you made up.

    Most fans of Star Wars dislike the prequels, many think they’re trash. Are they not fans? Do they need to blindly worship everything Lucas does, just because it’s under the banner of Star Wars? What about Dune? Am I not a fan if I hate the abominations written by Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert? That makes up almost 50% of the Dune series.

    As for this 50% figure: AFFC/ADWD don’t make up 50% of the series, counting TWOW is nonsense since we’ve only had a few preview chapters. And the percentage is even lower when you factor in D&E and TPATQ. In any case though, what percentage is acceptable to you? 20%? Is 15% hate the fandom limit?

    Your “logic” is subjective nonsense designed to quash criticism. Debate all you like, but don’t have the arrogance to proclaim whether people are fans or not.

  155. KG
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Fact of life: Angry people are hilarious :)

    Sister Wrister:
    This is HILARIOUS!

    9.

  156. Annara Snow
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    AngryRosFan:
    I think it is about“family” in the sense that Lommy was a sort of brother to Arya, along with Gendry and Hot Pie. She was able to avenge one person who meant something to her by killing Raff. That being said, unless there is something in the books stating thatArya knew Sansa was married to Tyrion (it may have but I don’t remember it, I can’t see how she would know that the part she played of the rape victim was meant to be her Sansa or have an emotional reaction to it.

    She did learn that Sansa was married to Tyrion. She learned it from Polliver in ASOS, in the same scene where she and the Hound also learned of Joffrey’s death, and that Tyrion was imprisoned and that Sansa was also implicated if Joff’s death and had run away. (According to Polliver, the story said that Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell, before turning into a wolf-bat and flying away, LOL.)
    But Arya just thought that it didn’t make sense, because Sansa wouldn’t want to marry “the Imp”, and she thought of it in the same vein as the rest of the rumor (thinking that Sansa doesn’t know spells), so she may not have even believed it, and she certainly didn’t seem to understand the implications, i.e. that it didn’t matter what Sansa wanted or didn’t want and that the Lannisters forced her to marry one of them because of her inheritance, not to mention that it most probably meant she had been raped. She never thinks of these terms, which suggests that she was still quite naive at the time, and she also didn’t seem to understand why the Hound was having a meltdown and going on about “leaving her to that dwarf”.
    Maybe the present Arya we see in this chapter would understand things better if she was told so now.

    However, I’m pretty sure that the character Mercy is playing is not called “Sansa” and is not supposed to be the Bloody Hand’s wife, just an anonymous innocent maiden who’s in the play to show the dwarf’s monstrosity. If Arya didn’t believe/process the fact that Sansa was really married to Tyrion in ASOS, she wouldn’t have made the connection now, either. There is no reason to think that this play about Tyrion would make Arya think about her sister being victimized, so her lack of reaction is more understandable. Although it is still odd that she has no reaction to the “boy king”, at least. But the play may be so removed from reality that Arya knows (for instance, if they are portraying Joffrey as a nice guy) that she can completely detach herself and not have an emotional reaction that would distract from her role as “Mercy”.

    The parallels between Mercy’s scene with Boboro and Sansa’s wedding chapter are purely for the readers’ benefit: it’s not like the company would be interested in what Tyrion’s penis looks like, for instance. let alone that they could know what went through Sansa’s mind. George is really playing with meta references in this chapter. *
    So while Arya is not playing Sansa (i.e. a character named Sansa or the highborn daughter of the late Hand forced to marry Tyrion), the parallel is clear, so Arya is in a way playing Sansa (or playing Mercy playing Sansa) and being “raped” in a play that represents a distorted version of real events; while poor Jeyne Poole was playing Arya in reality and actually being raped, in a storyline that is a lot like like an exaggerated, twisted and much worse version of the things Sansa has been through. The parallels and intertwined stories between Arya, Sansa and Jeyne are really interesting.

    I expect this chapter to generate a lot of discussion about Arya’s (a)sexuality. I’ve seen some people on Westeros comment that her references to “boys” were OOC and reflective of Mercy’s personality rather than hers, and others comment that maybe Arya is just starting to notice these things. I don’t see it as either. Arya noting that Raff is good-looking in a rough sort of way is no different than any of the other times when she’s noticed that some man is handsome or well-built, or that some woman in beautiful: a detached observation devoid of any desire on her part. It’s perfectly in character for her to notice someone’s good looks and not care at all – and here she only uses it as a means to cover her tracks, adopting a “boy-crazy” persona in conversation with the other girl, as an excuse to look for Raff, and therefore a cover for her murder. She also noticed Dareon’s good looks while deciding to kill him, in ACOK she noticed Jaqen’s good looks and his effect on the girls and it only made her trust him less – and let’s not forget that she was aware that Joffrey was handsome in her first chapter in AGOT. People make a lot of her description of Gendry as “muscled like a bull”, but those are the same words used in her first chapter in AGOT to describe the Hound. (I do think that GRRM was deliberately toying with the possibilities of a romantic connection between Arya and Gendry in the future, but I don’t think that Arya has felt a romantic attraction to him or anyone, so far.)
    In this chapter, she thinks of sex in a matter of fact way (she has heard a lot about it, if not seen it, living in Braavos and socializing with prostitutes etc.) but is completely indifferent to it, and is able to use sexuality as means to an end, in a cold and detached way. This may add support to the belief of some fans that Arya is asexual, but I’ve always thought and still think that it’s too early to judge that, since she’s still pre-pubescent (“”I’m not [a child]“, she lied”) and we’re still to see what changes puberty will bring; she may get hormonal urges, even though she has always clearly lacked and still lacks any romantic urges.

    * I mean, lady Stork? Phario Forel? Tell me that’s not trolling.

    Sorry to bring the discussion back to the actual chapter… Carry on with your fascinating debate. I like all the books in the series and enjoy almost all of the major characters, I’m sure that’s boring.

  157. Rygar
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    I would like to fan KG and feed her tea and oranges that come all the way from China.

  158. Lord Snow
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Loved the chapter! Somethings I wanted to share with you guys: First thing I loved was how I could nearly instantly tell it was an Arya chapter with the description of it even if it’s not that clear maybe and the fact that the fog would just tear in front of her (gives her a very assassin-like personality).
    The thing I loved the most was how she intends to kill him and does it without letting her fellow FM know as she is not to kill for revenge reasons as part of the “brotherhood”, something that makes me happy since I wasn’t sure she was going to do after her last chapter, it means she does want to go back and do some damage.
    As someone else said before, the fact that she actually performed the deed in a very seductive and feminine way shows a real progression to her skills who I think is a great addition GRRM made, he’s just brilliant.
    Lastly someone said at the begining that she had become a full blown FM, I dont think thats the case since she points out her own one mistake that she did that she had to drag his body down now, maybe she could be seen? Altho there’s the fog that day.

    I like reading all your comments and opinions guys. Since this is my first time posting in WiC I’d want to thank you guys for keeping us updated with every possible story about GoT and giving us appetizers through the long wait for the show and the books :)

  159. Annara Snow
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Lord Snow:
    Loved the chapter! Somethings I wanted to share with you guys: First thing I loved was how I could nearly instantly tell it was an Arya chapter with the description of it even if it’s not that clear maybe and the fact that the fog would just tear in front of her (gives her a very assassin-like personality).
    The thing I loved the most was how she intends to kill him and does it without letting her fellow FM know as she is not to kill for revenge reasons as part of the “brotherhood”, something that makes me happy since I wasn’t sure she was going to do after her last chapter, it means she does want to go back and do some damage.
    As someone else said before, the fact that she actually performed the deed in a very seductive and feminine way shows a real progression to her skills who I think is a great addition GRRM made, he’s just brilliant.Lastly someone said at the begining that she had become a full blown FM, I dont think thats the case since she points out her own one mistake that she did that she had to drag his body down now, maybe she could be seen? Altho there’s the fog that day.
    I like reading all your comments and opinions guys. Since this is my first time posting in WiC I’d want to thank you guys for keeping us updated with every possible story about GoT and giving us appetizers through the long wait for the show and the books :)

    Well, you could also immediately tell who the POV of the chapter was because there’s a photo of the Titan of Braavos right beneath the title. ;)

    I can’t help it, so I’m going to brag that I already guessed who it was when the title was announced. As I explained in the earlier thread, titles always refer to the POV’s identity, and “Mercy” sounded like a name of Arya’s new persona. I can’t think of any other character who would refer to themselves as “Mercy” (rather than, say, Mother Merciful, The Mercy or something like that.)

  160. Chickenduck
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    I loved this chapter.

    The play is totally Richard III-esque – take a disgraced former politician and write a play defaming them. The Shakespearean references in ASOIAF are great… Frey Pie… Titus Andronicus’ hand amputation… And yet, we never see GRRM mention it. Maybe I’m just reading too much into it.

  161. WildSeed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    incredible, ain’t it ? the world wasn’t created just recently ( :

    I ‘m eager to see how young Maisie continues to evolve onscreen, from sheltered tomboy to mature young lady with street smarts. I hope this season, we get an episode that focuses on her strengths, rather than word play with one of the leads. There may not be time offered up for that in S4, but following seasons will have us intrigued. I’m still hoping John Noble throws his hat in the ring to portray the Kindly Man.

  162. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    That was intense. And awesome. Put me in the boring camp.

  163. WildSeed
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I’m resisting reading any sample chapters of the upcoming TWOW. I have to agree with your observation of GRRM referencing Shakepeare, notably throughout ASOIAF. Presumably there have been several authors brave enough to take on such subjects, however Martin does this with ease. The effect conjures up enough energy or emotion then settles in to balance the story later with full impact. Nothing destroys and sends the audience through so many stages of emotion like Shakespeare. One may be disturbed at first, then restored to the heightened if energized quest for sweet revenge. I forgot about Titus Andronicus’ amputation paralleling Jaime’s ( or vice versa), but the ” Frey Pie ” was undeniably Shakeperean.

  164. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Why don’t you just offer her pizza? You don’t have to go far for the best pizza the world has to offer

  165. mal
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it, but I just realized about Arya… the reason the people were telling her their names and to remember them on the ship to Bravos was because the Faceless Men can’t kill people they know! Never realized this until now. My Mind Is Blown! By the way, this is my own personal discovery, I’m probably the last to realize this haha (so don’t post telling me this is old news)

  166. Lord Snow
    Posted March 27, 2014 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    lol, well yeah thats true the photo and the name as you explained so well do give you a very good hint, I was just pointing out the brilliant way George writes these chapters

  167. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    We are not discussing PARTS of a book. We are talking about someone dismissing entire VOLUMES of a book. Huge difference. Don’t be obtuse.

    cosca:
    KG,

    What you are arguing is that people not liking the parts of the book you liked, means they aren’t fans, by a metric you made up.

    Most fans of Star Wars dislike the prequels, many think they’re trash. Are they not fans? Do they need to blindly worship everything Lucas does, just because it’s under the banner of Star Wars? What about Dune? Am I not a fan if I hate the abominations written by Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert? That makes up almost 50% of the Dune series.

    As for this 50% figure: AFFC/ADWD don’t make up 50% of the series, counting TWOW is nonsense since we’ve only had a few preview chapters.And the percentage is even lower when you factor in D&E and TPATQ. In any case though, what percentage is acceptable to you? 20%? Is 15% hate the fandom limit?

    Your “logic” is subjective nonsense designed to quash criticism. Debate all you like, but don’t have the arrogance to proclaim whether people are fans or not.

  168. DEATHDREAMS
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister:
    Rygar,

    Why don’t you just offer her pizza?You don’t have to go far for the best pizza the world has to offer

    KG,

    I’m sorry that I referred to you as ‘him’…I didn’t realize.

  169. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    I’ve been trying to discuss the chapter all day! I want to be boring!

    Annara Snow: She did learn that Sansa was married to Tyrion. She learned it from Polliver in ASOS, in the same scenewhere she and the Hound also learned of Joffrey’s death,and that Tyrion was imprisoned and that Sansa was also implicated if Joff’s death and had run away.(According to Polliver, the story said that Sansa killed Joffrey with a spell, before turning into a wolf-bat and flying away, LOL.)
    But Arya just thought that it didn’t make sense, because Sansa wouldn’t want to marry “the Imp”, and she thought of it in the same vein as the rest of the rumor (thinking that Sansa doesn’t know spells), so she may not have even believed it, and she certainly didn’t seem to understand the implications, i.e. that it didn’t matter what Sansa wanted or didn’t want and that the Lannisters forced her to marry one ofthem because of her inheritance, not to mention that it most probably meant she had been raped. She never thinks of these terms, which suggests that she was still quite naive at the time, and she also didn’t seem to understand why the Hound was having a meltdown and going on about “leaving her to that dwarf”.
    Maybe the present Arya we see in this chapter would understand things better if she was told so now.

    However, I’m pretty sure that the character Mercy is playing is not called “Sansa” and is not supposed to be the Bloody Hand’s wife, just an anonymous innocent maiden who’s in the play to show the dwarf’s monstrosity. If Arya didn’t believe/process the fact that Sansa was really married to Tyrion in ASOS, she wouldn’t have made the connection now, either. There is no reason to think that this play about Tyrion would make Arya think about her sister being victimized, so her lack of reaction is more understandable. Although it is still odd that she has no reaction to the “boy king”, at least. But the play may be so removed from reality that Arya knows (for instance, if they are portraying Joffrey as a nice guy) that she can completely detach herself and not have an emotional reaction that would distract from her role as “Mercy”.

    The parallels between Mercy’s scene with Boboro and Sansa’s wedding chapter are purely for the readers’ benefit: it’s not like the company would be interested in what Tyrion’s penis looks like, for instance. let alone that they could know what went through Sansa’s mind. George is really playing with meta references in this chapter. *
    So while Arya is not playing Sansa (i.e. a character named Sansa or the highborn daughter of the late Hand forced to marry Tyrion), the parallel is clear, so Arya is in a way playing Sansa (or playing Mercy playing Sansa) and being “raped” in a play that represents a distorted version of real events; while poor Jeyne Poole was playing Arya in reality and actually being raped, in a storyline that is a lot like like an exaggerated, twisted and much worse version of the things Sansa has been through. The parallels and intertwined stories between Arya, Sansa and Jeyne are really interesting.

    I expect this chapter to generate a lot of discussion about Arya’s (a)sexuality. I’ve seen some people on Westeros comment that her references to “boys” were OOC and reflective of Mercy’s personality rather than hers, and others comment that maybe Arya is just starting to notice these things. I don’t see it as either. Arya noting that Raff is good-looking in a rough sort of way is no different than any of the other times when she’s noticed that some man is handsome or well-built, or that some woman in beautiful: a detached observation devoid of any desire on her part. It’s perfectly in character for her to notice someone’s good looks and not care at all – and here she only uses it as a means to cover her tracks, adopting a “boy-crazy” persona in conversation with the other girl, as an excuse to look for Raff, and therefore a cover for her murder. She also noticed Dareon’s good looks while deciding to kill him, in ACOK she noticed Jaqen’s good looks and his effect on the girls and it only made her trust him less – and let’s not forget that she was aware that Joffrey was handsome in her first chapter in AGOT. People make a lot of her description of Gendry as “muscled like a bull”, but those are the same words used in her first chapter in AGOT to describe the Hound. (I do think that GRRM was deliberately toying with the possibilities of a romantic connection between Arya and Gendry in the future, but I don’t think that Arya has felt a romantic attraction to him or anyone, so far.)
    In this chapter, she thinks of sex in a matter of fact way (she hasheard a lot about it, if not seen it, living in Braavos and socializing with prostitutes etc.) but is completely indifferent to it, and is able to use sexuality as means to an end, in a cold and detached way. This may add support to the belief of some fans that Arya is asexual, but I’ve always thought and still think that it’s too early to judge that, since she’s still pre-pubescent (“”I’m not [a child]“, she lied”) and we’re still to see what changes puberty will bring; she may get hormonal urges, even though she has always clearly lacked and still lacks any romantic urges.

    * I mean, lady Stork? Phario Forel? Tell me that’s not trolling.

    Sorry to bring the discussion back to the actual chapter… Carry on with your fascinating debate. I like all the books in the series and enjoy almost all of the major characters, I’m sure that’s boring.

  170. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    DEATHDREAMS,

    You’re forgiven :)

  171. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Actually, I hadn’t realized that, either! What a failsafe :D Nice catch!

    mal:
    Don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it, but I just realized about Arya… the reason the people were telling her their names and to remember them on the ship to Bravos was because the Faceless Men can’t kill people they know! Never realized this until now. My Mind Is Blown! By the way, this is my own personal discovery, I’m probably the last to realize this haha (so don’t post telling me this is old news)

  172. DEATHDREAMS
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Maybe this example will help. (Probably not. )
    I loved the first Matrix movie, but I hated the second and third. I would say that I’m definitely not a fan of the Matrix trilogy. Just the first movie. I think this example would apply to what KG is saying, and gives an ok counterpoint to Rygar’s Sports teams argument.

  173. DEATHDREAMS
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    DEATHDREAMS,

    No? Did I offend all the Matrix 3 fans out there? Well fuck me then, I’m going to sleep.

  174. Dogs
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    DEATHDREAMS,

    All four of them.

  175. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    DEATHDREAMS,

    Well I thought you were correct.

    (Applause)

  176. Tatters
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    Atleast it would be weird if you cared about upcoming books, cause this one doesnt seem to change from the last one. So it would be unreasonable to discuss a book you dont like, on a excerpt about that book.

  177. GeekFurious
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    Arya will do what Arya feels she must do.

  178. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:39 am | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    More info on the chapter from the man himself:

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/362384.html

    So this would have been the first Arya chapter after the 5 year gap. That explains many things. A 16-year-old Arya seducing Raff seems much more plausible (and much less creepy). And while I loved the chapter, there seemed to me kind of a big jump between her last one and “Mercy”. Makes sense if this was originally written before her AFFC/ADWD chapters with a teenager in mind.

    See? Told you she doesn’t sound like an 11-year-old. Only now I can’t blame Uncle George for getting it wrong. Except – shouldn’t he change it a bit then? Ah, well. Bygones.

    This thread has mutated somewhat.

  179. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    Ellaria,

    Have you been to Westeros.org? This site is ponies and rainbows compared to that.

  180. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    WildSeed: incredible, ain’t it ? the world wasn’t created just recently ( :

    Well, now we know the Big Bang is canon… definitely not. ;)

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    that is true, but we’ve been rather kicky ponies lately. The show has to start again, or George has to throw out more stuff that isn’t actually from twelve years ago.

  181. Chickenduck
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned:
    More info on the chapter from the man himself:

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/362384.html

    So this would have been the first Arya chapter after the 5 year gap. That explains many things. A 16-year-old Arya seducing Raff seems much more plausible (and much less creepy). And while I loved the chapter, there seemed to me kind of a big jump between her last one and “Mercy”. Makes sense if this was originally written before her AFFC/ADWD chapters with a teenager in mind.

    That makes a lot of sense… Wow, so he’s really been sitting on this for a while. The sample chapters from TWoW released so far are all previously written!! I wonder if he’s actually written anything new yet! (Only half joking).

    The kids in ASOIAF have always acted too old for their chronological ages. In my head, I’ve tended to either ignore that, or handwave it by saying that a Westerosi year is about 500 days ;)

  182. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    I’ve mostly been using the show ages, that generally works pretty well.

  183. Kael of the Lake
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    OMG…
    Bad attempt at child pornography.

    [Closes windows hurriedly, takes down Martin's posters, draws fake moustachios.]

    He has a unique, special way to make me love the TV series more.

  184. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:57 am | Permalink

    I can certainly see why he wanted to jam a time skip in there. I’ll give him the slightest slack for this, then.

  185. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    The natives are getting restless. Episodes or we start ripping people limb from limb.

    (Can I wave the arm around? Please?)

    Satin: Well, now we know the Big Bang is canon… definitely not. ;)

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    that is true, but we’ve been rather kicky ponies lately. The show has to start again, or George has to throw out more stuff that isn’t actually from twelve years ago.

  186. Sir Dosser
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    We have 2 books and these major things to resolve:

    - The Others
    - Dany and dragons / Battle for the throne
    - Faith Militant
    - Maesetrs of the Citadel conspiracy

    But all the chapters released so far touch on noone of these things.

    Insead we have:

    one chapter about killing Raff

    two chapters about Arianne TRAVELING to Aegon

    three posiblly four chapters or POVs about the still unresolved battle for Mereen

    one Theon chapter which is the best so far but even there things are left unresolved

    And still some people are having orgazams about an Arya chapter which can be summarized as:
    - 2 % – Dreams of Nym and the tree watching her
    - 96% – filler (weiners, traveling/walking…)
    - 2% – killing a minor character in the overall story

  187. Valar Morghulis
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    Hounded,

    You forgot the part where the 2 guards conclude there couldnt possibly be lemon trees in Bravoos since the city is in the north and the climate is wrong.


    So how can Dany remember a house with the red door and a lemon tree in Braavos?

    She was born and raised in Dorne it is known.

    Dany was born in Dragonstone and raised in Exile in Braavos !!
    THIS is known

  188. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Tatters,

    Well if it has better editing and and plot actually moves faster than i beg to differ .

  189. Boojam
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    This is the best excerpt I from Winter I have read by GRRM. I keep wondering is it a chapter or part of a chapter? I caught immediately who’s POV this was , so has Arya completed her training or is she out on her own? Or is this part of her training? I am glad someone caught who two of the Westerosi characters were because I had totally forgotten.
    George left me puzzled as just who he was talking about when mentioning characters back in Westeros. He gives the impression this is an older Arya but by one year, two years? , fine with me.
    I can not see how in the world this sequence will be in the show, it can be re-worked , but it may be an elaboration in Braavos that the show will not have time for.
    Some implications here , apparently Tyrion has not be found.
    A puzzle, could not figure out the mention of the name Clegane and what that means.
    This killing of Raff seems redundant since even in the books she has killed Polliver and recovered Needle. It seems a matter of revenge.

  190. Annara Snow
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    Sir Dosser:
    We have 2 books and these major things to resolve:

    - The Others
    - Dany and dragons / Battle for the throne
    - Faith Militant
    - Maesetrs of the Citadel conspiracy

    But all the chapters released so far touch on noone of these things.


    Insead we have:

    one chapter about killing Raff


    two chapters about Arianne TRAVELING to Aegon

    three posiblly four chapters or POVs about the still unresolved battle for Mereen


    one Theon chapter which is the best so far but even there things are left unresolved

    And still some people are having orgazams about an Arya chapter which can be summarized as:
    - 2 % – Dreams of Nym and the tree watching her
    - 96% –filler (weiners, traveling/walking…)
    - 2% – killing a minor character in the overall story

    Why don’t you just skip the books altogether and wait for the Wikipedia summary of the plot? You would probably find that more satisfactory.

  191. Hounded
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Couldn’t have put it better myself Annara. 96% wieners. What’s wrong with that? Who doesn’t enjoy a good wiener every now and then?

  192. Azzy Mahmood
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    Righto. I wasn’t a fan of AFFC at all on first reading, then appreciated it more on second and third reading. It certainly wasn’t the direction I’d have taken most storylines, but that’s GRRM’s prerogative I guess.

    I did however love ADWD, it had all of the intrigue, power, and sheer desperation of the earlier books.

    Until this week I wasn’t at all impressed with the snippets from TWOW either, but that new chapter has renewed my faith. I am still hopeful of an autumn 2014 release, announced immediately after Episode 10 of S4.

  193. Rygar
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Because as far as I know Leonard Cohen does not sing about pizza.

  194. Pau
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    KG:
    So you are saying that when you start using the word “hate” you can still consider yourself a fan? That makes no sense.

    Of course you can!! Precisely the fact that you HATE something makes you a fan!! I don’t hate anything for wich I have no feelings for…I wouldn’t have FUCKING HATED the Lost finale if I was not a fan…and I’m sure if you don’t like the ending of ASOIAF you’ will hate it with all your heart, precisely because you are a fan ;)

    PS: Having said that people that can’t stop complaining about the last books and that just want to know the ending of the series so Jon and Danny can love (or kill) each other are certainly annoying. I myself don’t like them as much, but I also don’t like the last Portishead album and don’t hate them for that. I love them for making the 2 best albums of all time.

    PPS: Ok maybe not the 2 best, just top 10 best AND the best live album of all time :P

  195. Annara Snow
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    The people who complain about the released chapters from TWOW the way Ser Dosser does above must have hated all the previous books, including the first three books.

    I’m re-reading AGOT, and one can lay all those complaints against it. Other than the prologue, the first 80-90 pages are just introducing the characters. There are maybe 3 chapters in the entire book, other than the prologue, that have anything to do with the Others. There are three chapters from two POVs dealing with a tournament where nothing of real significance for the plot happens. (And those chapters are among those I love the most in the book.) There’s a chapter that’s just about Tyrion hanging out at the Wall. There’s another chapter that’s almost all about a dream by Bran (it’s one of the best chapters in the book, IMO). A lot of the book is about Ned’s investigation of Jon Arryn’s death, which goes nowhere.

    In ACOK, there are six chapters dealing with the battle of Blackwater from three POVs, plus a couple more about its consequences, and the chapters that fans love the most include those where Arya is using Jaqen to kill insignificant people, and a chapter that’s all about prophecies (the House of the Undying).

    In ASOS, there are several chapters where Bran is basically just travelling with his companions, and one of them is mostly about Meera telling him a story about a past tournament. There are also chapters where Catelyn is doing nothing but tending to her dying father and trying to decipher his ramblings, which serve as foreshadowing for something that is revealed much later in the book.

    If someone wants just PLOT, PLOT, PLOT that goes by as quickly as possible, they’re looking at the wrong books.

  196. Strider
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Boojam:
    This killing of Raff seems redundant since even in the books she has killed Polliver and recovered Needle. It seems a matter of revenge.

    I saw many support the idea that the killing of Raff was redundant, but I didn’t feel that. Her hit list at this point had to my recollection (if I missed someone, please add to it):

    Chiswyck (RIP)
    Dunsen (alive)
    Joffrey (RIP)
    Polliver (RIP)
    Queen Cersei (alive)
    Raff the Sweetling (alive)
    Ser Amory Lorch (RIP)
    Ser Gregor (?) (RIP)
    Ser Ilyn (alive)
    Ser Meryn (alive)
    The Tickler (RIP)
    Weese (RIP)
    This is her first kill so to speak as a hitgirl (?) while holding on to her Arya list.

    I thought it was pretty major. She was cold, calculating, used available means (she already was a mummer and mummers were at times providing other services) and opportunity (can anyone else use so the break between acts 1 & 2 I wonder?!) and she was the one who put the plan in motion.

    With Pollivar a lot was derived by how Sandor dealt with his opponents and it was pretty much an ad hoc 2 vs 3 situation. I’d say throwing cups at a squire until you realize Sandor is drunk and badly hurt and you have to do something about is not really an assassin’s work.

    Quite frankly I was equally impressed, and horrified at her transformation. You can argue previous kills as FM: Dareon or any other I can’t now remember true, but none were on Arya’s death list.

  197. Shock Me
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Rygar: KG, I love you more than most, but thats just silly talk, you goose.

    Try telling that to any Cubs fan or Mets fan or Islanders fan.Or any other FAN that once loved something that was great that is now mediocre or shitty.They are still fans.

    I don’t know about “once loved something that was great”. The cubs haven’t won a pennant since like 1908 and I’m sure anyone that was alive to see it isn’t alive anymore. But the Cubbies still have fans.

  198. Shock Me
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    cosca,

    Based on Star Wars IV A New Hope and V The Empire Strikes Back, I’m a huge fan of Alec Guiness, the combo of David Prowse and James Earl Jones, Peter Cushing, Peter Mayhew, and Frank Oz, as well as a mild fan of Harrison Ford based on his body of work since then. (And the dude inside R2D2)

    As far as the prequels, only Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Samuel Jackson, and Frank Oz again made any impression at all. The scene I was most looking forward to (The battle at the Jedi Temple) which I had imagined so often for so long ever since it was alluded to by Alec Guiness in SW IV, was only redeemed by the face of the child actor preceding the death of the younglings.

    I’m a huge fan of what the Star Wars series of films could have been. With GoT and ASoIaF, by only annoyances are that the books and episodes are not long enough to explore all the wonderful characters and also that the books especially never seems to advance the story very far. Having been a Wheel of Time reader, I feel like either George or I will die before the series concludes. Which is sad because I really want to know the end, and how he got there.

  199. jill
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    While i enjoyed the chapter and took the sexual parts to be Arya disassociated from herself to play this character, the thought that it was written awhile ago with an older arya in mind means he likely did tone this down. A lot.

  200. jill
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Satin,
    This explanationaactually makes me creeped out when i really wasn’t before…

    While i enjoyed the chapter and took the sexual parts to be Arya disassociated from herself to play this character, the thought that it was written awhile ago with an older arya in mind means he likely did tone this down. A lot.

  201. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    jill,

    that would be creepy indeed, though I’m wondering if he really changed more than the parts where Arya’s age/pre-pubescent status is mentioned, because her thinking really fits a girl of 16 much better. Not that it is impossible to have an 11-year-old being so familiar with sexuality, horribly enough, but Arya basically goes from not getting that people hit on her in her “Cat of the Canals” phase to experienced seductress in a couple of weeks, and while acting troupes had an association with prostitution for a long time, I don’t know that she was sent to Izembaro to learn how to turn tricks. But maybe he will revise it a bit more, or it’ll make more sense in context.

  202. Magnar
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    well said, couldn’t agree more people need to lighten up, if someone says there a fan who is it for someone else to question that?

    Lurker:

    I think anyone who dedicates large chunks of their free time to debating the minutiae of any given subject online deserves to call themselves a fa

  203. helena
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Satin,

    I agree, it looks like he wrote the chapter with a sixteen year old Arya in mind and when the five year gap was cut he only changed the mentions about her body and age, which makes the chapter way too creepy, it doesn’t makes sense for Arya to use her sexuality like she does because she never thought about it until this very chapter.

  204. Tatters
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    helena,

    It seems like she is doing it only for mummery, an imitation. Like the way in season three finale.

  205. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I cant speak for him but since i felt ripped off by buying AFFC(ADWD was lucky that it had the North and Reek plotline otherwise i would have felt the same) i would probably do that especially the fact that i dont really care about spoilers since one asshole spoiled all the major plotlines from the books before i read them and i still very much find enjoyment in the first three books and some of book 5 .

  206. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Tatters,

    that was way different, though. It’s also not just what she does, it’s the way she’s thinking about it. He could play it as her getting so much into the mindset of the young actress she’s playing here – provided “Mercy” was an actual person and not just some invented alias – but as a development of Arya as a person, it’s very abrupt and jumps a few stages, which makes her POV somewhat jarring. Hearing that George originally planned this to be a sixteen-year-old version of Arya explains this sudden jump from a traumatised, jaded child, who was still bizarrely innocent on some levels to someone who is so used to sexualized behaviour, she’s not only blasé about it, but can use it to her advantage.

  207. Magnar
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    that would be creepy indeed, though I’m wondering if he really changed more than the parts where Arya’s age/pre-pubescent status is mentioned, because her thinking really fits a girl of 16 much better. Not that it is impossible to have an 11-year-old being so familiar with sexuality, horribly enough, but Arya basically goes from not getting that people hit on her in her “Cat of the Canals” phase to experienced seductress in a couple of weeks, and while acting troupes had an association with prostitution for a long time, I don’t know that she was sent to Izembaro to learn how to turn tricks. But maybe he will revise it a bit more, or it’ll make more sense in context.

    You have a point, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call her a “seductress” considering who she is trying to seduce, Raff the sweetling is a known creep, think of all the horrible disgusting things he and everyone else riding with Gregor Clegane did, so I don’t find it hard to believe him wanting to go sneak off with a little girl considering it was easy enough, the other guard even said something like “she’s only a little girl”. But I do think its an important chapter in terms of how far Aryas come and her progression as a skilled assassin, I can’t wait to see what happens with her when she goes back to westeros, my theory is that she will turn out to be like the Starks version of Varys, considering how she can warg into cats and whatnot, someone who is really skilled in espionage is something the Starks have always lacked.

  208. Tatters
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    Being faceless makes one do bold decisions. Like on the internet.
    Or in the happy port.

  209. Satin
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Magnar,

    Can you spoiler the part in the quote, please? just add the usual tags after the opening and before the closing “strong” tag.

  210. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    So before i buy the next book i have to see if its in the quality of the last two books or the first three because if its the last books then i wont bother .

  211. Nick Larter
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Shan:
    Hoyti Von Totiy,


    I think this chapter was intended to be
    a gateway for Arya to get back to Westeros. I think Raff was just an added bonus.


    But then again, when I think about the fact that this was removed from ADWD, I can’t imagine he had initially planned for her to go back to KL that early.


    THEN AGAIN… if this was removed from ADWD, how was Arya already full blown FM out of training? IDK halp

    When I heard GRRM speak about ADWD at the Olympus con, I’m pretty sure he said that there were a couple of Arya chapters that ended up on the cutting room floor so to speak – ie would not be moved to TWOW. I certainly formed that impression anyway. It might explain something of the rapidity of her development if that is so.

  212. fuelpagan
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Seems clear to me Arya is on a mission. I agree with those who think this was part of the FM plan to plant an agent in the KL envoy. It just happened to be someone on her list. But I don’t think she is a FM yet and becoming a 30 year old male. My guess would be whomever takes over Raff’s role will bring her along pretending to be his little play thing he stole away, thus giving her access to KL.

    Cersei stopped paying on the loan to the Iron Bank, they are the ones who will be going after Cersei. This is simply the first step. Having Arya gives the FM a way to get someone close to Cersei whom you wouldn’t expect has been trained as an assassin. I see them revealing her identity privately and the Queen will want to see Arya with her own eyes. Arya draws her in close using the skills she learned as a mummer and takes her out.

  213. Blind Beth
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Satin:
    Tatters,

    that was way different, though. It’s also not just what she does, it’s the way she’s thinking about it. He could play it as her getting so much into the mindset of the young actress she’s playing here – provided “Mercy” was an actual person and not just some invented alias – but as a development of Arya as a person, it’s very abrupt and jumps a few stages, which makes her POV somewhat jarring. Hearing that George originally planned this to be a sixteen-year-old version of Arya explains this sudden jump from a traumatised, jaded child, who was still bizarrely innocent on some levels to someone who is so used to sexualized behaviour, she’s not only blasé about it, but can use it to her advantage.

    Kids can be very blase about sexuality before their own hormones kick in. I read Arya’s attitude towards sex as very mechanical. Sex to her seems like just something she knows about from hanging out with sailors and whores (I mean she was recommending brothels as Cat of the Canals) but doesn’t feel anything about on a gut level. Her attitude towards fake-seducing Raff seemed the same as her attitude towards getting fake-raped by a stuffed dildo–e.g., something that must be done well to achieve an end, but not something she has any primal, hormonal reaction to at all. Her only real feeling is the desire to kill him. She even thinks Raff’s tongue is gross and thinks of what she is doing as “licking his tongue” rather than “kissing him back” or something like that, which strikes me as something a jaded 11 year old would think much more than how a 16 year old with her own sexual urges would think of it.

  214. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest:
    So before i buy the next book i have to see if its in the quality of the last two books or the first three because if its the last books then i wont bother .

    Fascinating!

    Rygar,

    Everybody knows, the cheese is rotten. Everybody knows.

  215. House Mormont
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    i have a question i forgot to ask, who are the keyholders and what keys are they holding? is this Braavosi politics i forgot about?

  216. Sister Wrister
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    I was also wondering about this… I don’t remember either. I sortof assumed it referred to power players, maybe something to do with the Iron Bank?

  217. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    I don’t believe it’s been mentioned before. Probably some higher official like a senator or something.

    House Mormont:
    i have a question i forgot to ask, who are the keyholders and what keys are they holding? is this Braavosi politics i forgot about?

  218. House Mormont
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    ah i was thinking it was for the elite captains that could elect a new Sealord, but iron keys for the iron bank would make sense too

  219. KG
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Ok FYI something is up with the posting mechanism. I’ve had to delete my post twice because the spoiler tags just are not working.

  220. Steven
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    There is no “new” Winds of winter chapter, its just Dance with Dragons leftovers like the rest of the “new” WOW chapters.

    How the hell does GRRM plan to finish the goddamn story in 2 books if he uses an entire chapter just to kill Raff who is important to the main storyline about as much as Moonboy.

    Christ sake he uses 3 to 4 POV/chapters just to describe the battle for Mereen …

    The chapter isn’t about Raff, it’s about Arya. And I for one am fine with several chapters about an event as pivotal as the Battle for Meereen.

    Just makes you realize people read these books for very different reasons. For some it’s the “important stuff that happens” (as defined by them), for myself I care as much if not more about central events in the important characters’ lives and how that affects their development.

  221. Chickenduck
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy:
    Hounded,

    You forgot the part where the 2 guards conclude there couldnt possibly be lemon trees in Bravoos since the city is in the north and the climate is wrong.


    So how can Dany remember a house with the red door and a lemon tree in Braavos?

    She was born and raised in Dorne it is known.

    Pentos. Dany was raised in Pentos, not Braavos.

  222. House Mormont
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    no Dany was raised in Braavos with Ser Willem Darry for most of her life, after he died her and Viserys were chased around the free cities by either Robert’s assassins or Viserys’ paranoia until they ended up with being taken in by Illyrio in Pentos when Dany was thirteen

  223. Steven
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Hounded,

    Well done, ser….

  224. pau
    Posted March 28, 2014 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest:
    Annara Snow,

    I cant speak for him but since i felt ripped off by buying AFFC(ADWD was lucky that it had the North and Reek plotline otherwise i would have felt the same) i would probably do that especially the fact that i dont really care about spoilers since one asshole spoiled all the major plotlines from the books before i read them and i still very much find enjoyment in the first three books and some of book 5 .

    Here, you seem in need of some of this ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

  225. Magnar
    Posted March 29, 2014 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    Satin,

    tried to, somethings up with the spoiler tags. Besides I don’t really think I gave anything important away in that quote, just that she’s basically acting older and using that fact to her advantage.


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