David Benioff and Dan Weiss on the pleasures of reaching the Game of Thrones halfway point
By Lightbringer on in Interview.

Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss recently spoke with HitFix about their approach to the show as it enters its fourth year. Having already written and filmed what they see as the halfway point, we can start to expect some payoff, as the story rounds the bend.

“Now that we’ve passed what we see as the halfway point, one of the great pleasures of the show for us is seeing some of these disparate plot threads come together, and seeing characters who have never met each other finally occupying the same frame. It feels like this is the season where the “GoT” universe finally stops expanding and starts contracting, and the resulting collisions can be a lot of fun.”

Some of these collisions can be expected during the Royal Wedding, which gave David and Dan the opportunity to linger in one setting for the majority of an episode, and create some interesting character pairings.

“For us it’s fun to see characters who normally occupy separate storylines collide like charged particles in an accelerator. What if Cersei met Brienne? What if Loras bumped into Jaime? But beyond those moments, there’s great pleasure in taking a show which normally bounds between locations and slowing it down, lingering on the moment. Later in the season we have an episode that takes place in one night, in one general location. The decision to focus on one storyline is driven by the story itself. When a wedding congregates so many of our characters, we dwell on that congregation at length. When it’s time for a great battle, we want to see both sides.”

Dan Weiss also spoke with Vulture about handling the aging child actors. Many of the characters in the ASOIAF series are much younger than their television counterparts, and as years pass in the real world, only weeks pass in the story. So how are they going to handle the rapidly growing disparity?

“It’s a complicated question, and there’s no simple answer,” Weiss said. “I would say that there are a lot of factors at play, and we keep them all in mind. Ideally, of course, we would like George’s books and the show to hit at the same time, but we just kind of make the best show that we can, based on this amazing road map. I think Sophie’s already taller than I am, but what are you going to do? It just comes with the territory, where you buy it that people are aging at a different rate on the show than they do in the real world. You kind of buy into that.”

Visit Vulture for more from from Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who is guilty of a few growth spurts, and the man who has to carry him around, Kristian Nairn.


187 Comments

  1. Neil
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Sometimes I wonder if they’ve even read books 4 & 5. They are not remotely at the point where the universe stops expanding.

  2. mena
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Hodor!!

  3. Richard
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    The great house Baratheon, of the Seven Kingdoms, watched over by the God of Seven, cements its place in the history of Westeros with a grand wedding.

    All Hail King Joffery Baratheon.

    “Guards, that man in the corner is not applauding loudly enough.”

  4. Lex
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Neil:
    Sometimes I wonder if they’ve even read books 4 & 5. They are not remotely at the point where the universe stops expanding.

    They’ve read them. So what this means is that you should expect a massive amount of cutting, from the next 2 books.

  5. Nick
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Neil,

    I know exactly what you mean

  6. Tomas Hedwyn Savage
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Ooooh interesting, about the episode taking place over one night, The battle of the wall in episode 9 methinks , the idea of Brienne and Cersei is amazing, that scene should be hilarious! Its so close now, can’t wait!!!

  7. Alan
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Neil:
    Sometimes I wonder if they’ve even read books 4 & 5. They are not remotely at the point where the universe stops expanding.

    I know panicking about what is going to be cut is this website’s favorite pasttime, and yes, this once again confirms 7-8 seasons… but when they are talking about expanding and contracting, they also aren’t talking about what everyone here seems to be freaking out about.

    They’re very clear what they mean — characters coming together, some storylines being resolved. I don’t think much of Dorne or the Iron Islands makes the show for various reasons, but that’s not what D&D are talking about here.

    The end of ASOS and thus Season 4 is the climax of the Game of Thrones portion of the story. The King’s Landing storyline implodes and climaxes, and after that, who sits the Iron Throne begins to lose its importance. It’s the end of Act 1. Things do converge for a while.

  8. mal
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Neil,

    it’s my guess that many of the characters and storylines will be cut or blended together. This concurs with what’s been said so far without details and the fact that they will veer from the books in the future. This is not a popular opinion (I’ve gotten some grief with some of my predictions). So yes, I think they have read 4 & 5.

  9. Chriss
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Neil:
    Sometimes I wonder if they’ve even read books 4 & 5. They are not remotely at the point where the universe stops expanding.

    Yeah, I never understand when they say things like that. Did they just stop reading after The Red Wedding?

    I often ponder, gravely, that when they say those things, they’re really preparing book readers for the excision of Dorne and the Iron Islanders.

    Frankly, I think should that be the case, then they have sadly failed to bring A Song of Ice and Fire to the screen successfully. Because they’ve really truncated the story, and made a new, narrower one within it. This wouldn’t be just plot changes for time or to make things fit, this would be cutting chunks of the story out.

  10. Mark
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    I wonder why no one (at least to my knowledge) has ever asked them what they plan to do about all the new POV characters (mainly from Dorne and Iron Islands) coming up in the further seasons. All book readers are dying to know if all will be included, or some cut, etc… For the life of me can’t figure out why no one has asked.

  11. Colty
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    Because people that do interviews with D&D are level-headed people who don’t have panic attacks over minute details.

    No offense meant to you. I’m mainly referring to the general fandom, and specifically the commenters here at WiCnet.

    D&D have made a damn good television show from a damn good book series so far. People need to just relax and let them do their thing. I guarantee they know how to write/run a show better than everyone here.

    :)

  12. Mark
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Colty:
    Mark,

    Because people that do interviews with D&D are level-headed people who don’t have panic attacks over minute details.

    No offense meant to you. I’m mainly referring to the general fandom, and specifically the commenters here at WiCnet.

    D&D have made a damn good television show from a damn good book series so far. People need to just relax and let them do their thing. I guarantee they know how to write/run a show better than everyone here.

    :)

    I don’t doubt that they’ll do a great job and I’m certainly not worrying about it. But people ask George insanely detailed questions about this and that all the time. People ask D&D questions about how they plan to follow the books and how many seasons etc.. all the time as well. I’m just kind of surprised that the question I mentioned hasn’t been one of them because, I’m not sure if you’ve actually looked but people on here and other forums debate what will be included/not of those story lines constantly.

  13. Jeb
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: Yeah, I never understand when they say things like that. Did they just stop reading after The Red Wedding?

    I often ponder, gravely, that when they say those things, they’re really preparing book readers for the excision of Dorne and the Iron Islanders.

    Frankly, I think should that be the case, then they have sadly failed to bring A Song of Ice and Fire to the screen successfully. Because they’ve really truncated the story, and made a new, narrower one within it. This wouldn’t be just plot changes for time or to make things fit, this would be cutting chunks of the story out.

    Whilst, I agree with the sntiments, this is a completely ridiculous comment. I already have a fair number of Unsullied friends who don’t know all the minor characters names, and are already moaning about episodes switching between too many storylines. I think we’d all like for both Dorne and the Iron Islands to be shown, but from a TV point of view there’s little point to them.

    You might not like it, but the Unsullies viewer is far more important to HBO than the Sullied one as they make up more of the audience. If too many new additions are made then the show will lose viewers, as it will become too confusing. Simple. And, Martin’s plot progression of a snail’s pace would be too slow on the show for too many seasons. Any individual who seriously believed that they were going to include both these elements and finish in 7 (or even 8) seasons is, frankly, deluded. I’m not saying we won’t have elements of these characters, but at the very most 1/5 will stay.

    I’d rather the show finishes the sries in a staisfying, and thrillimg end, then get cancelled after 6 seasons or so, with none of the last two (unpublished) books adapted. A succesful adaptation is one that pleases both Sullied and Unsullied, and so far it has done that. But, compromises have to be made.

    The really annoying thing is, that D & D have been making this point for around 18 months now, but still people fail to accept the truth. Sigh.

  14. Valyrian eyes
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but iirc a lot of the new pov’s are not characters as much as windows into the actions of more important characters, like areo for doran, arianne etc. Personally I don’t think the situation is as dire as all that. Sure, they’ll cut a lot, but most when they say it starts to contract I don’t think we should be so radical as to think they flat out mean no more povs included in the future. Or Dorne and the Iron Islands which seem to be the next victims along with the fArya storyline in everyone’s minds these days. Not that I’m defending them or anything, but that’s just so VAGUE

  15. Currawong
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Jeb: I already have a fair number of Unsullied friends who don’t know all the minor characters names, and already moaning about episodes switching between too many storylines. I think we’d all like for both Dorne and the Iron Islands to be brought to be shown, but from a TV point of view there’s little point to them.

    You might not like it, but the Unsullies viewer is far more important to HBO than the Sullied one as they make up more of the audience. If too many new additions are made then the show will lose viewers. Simple.
    ….
    I’d rather the show finishes the sries in a staisfying, and thrillimg end, then get cancelled after 6 seasons or so, with none of the last two (unpublished) books adapted. A succesful adaptation is oe that pleases both Sullied and Unsullied, and so far it has done this. But, compromises have to be made.

    The really annoying thing is, that D & D have been making this point for around 18 months, but still people fail to accept the truth. Sigh.

    Well said. D&D really don’t have to worry about the totally dedicated book fans, because those ‘worry about every last detail’ readers make up a very small portion of the viewing audience. There are millions of viewers who have read and enjoyed the books either before or after the show started but who really couldn’t care less whether Dany has purple eyes, or whether Vargo Hoat became Bolton bannerman Locke. And millions more are never going to read the books at all, and just want to watch a compelling TV show. There comes a point at which there are just too many characters and too many plot complexities for most viewers to cope with, and D&D are being extremely sensible in their approach to adapting the books.

    Unlike the rest of us, they DO know the endings for all the main characters and story arcs. They’ve known since early last year when they sat down with GRRM to have that big discussion about future directions, and they have talked to him in detail since then. So what they have written for Season 4 and beyond, and what gets combined, cut or amended, will have been done with a good eye on the key threads, the various end points and the ultimate ‘bittersweet’ ending that GRRM has said he plans.

  16. Alan
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Chriss:
    Because they’ve really truncated the story, and made a new, narrower one within it.

    It’s a TV show. Compared to books like ASOIF, it’s going to be narrower by definition. Every major character is simpler, every theme less nuanced, many plot points simplified.

    It’s just reality. You can call it a different story if you’d like, but it’s probably the most faithful adaptation of anything of its length ever, once you consider the scope, length, complexity, dragons, etc.

    They have yet to excise something of the size we are talking, so maybe they won’t. But it’s going to be tough to keep all of it.

  17. Valyrian eyes
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Mark: I don’t doubt that they’ll do a great job and I’m certainly not worrying about it. But people ask George insanely detailed questions about this and that all the time. People ask D&D questions about how they plan to follow the books and how many seasons etc.. all the time as well. I’m just kind of surprised that the question I mentioned hasn’t been one of them because, I’m not sure if you’ve actually looked but people on here and other forums debate what will be included/not of those story lines constantly.

    I think it’s just that most interviewers probably are not readers. So all they know is that the books are like 5 times the page count of the bible and that the story is not finished so they must be horribly difficult to adapt and the show will catch up to the books so they only aks about these topics

  18. Alan
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Colty:
    Mark,

    Because people that do interviews with D&D are level-headed people who don’t have panic attacks over minute details.

    No offense meant to you. I’m mainly referring to the general fandom, and specifically the commenters here at WiCnet.

    D&D have made a damn good television show from a damn good book series so far. People need to just relax and let them do their thing. I guarantee they know how to write/run a show better than everyone here.

    :)

    A better reason is because they aren’t going to get an answer. It’s possibleD&D haven’t even made up their mind yet (tho soon, obviously).

    I am surprised no one has asked them how far they plot ahead in terms of general arcs — what’s in and what’s out, etc., given all the intertangled webs.

  19. Kevin
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    They can have a few scenes introducing Dorian Martell and his schemes, and introduce the Greyjoys & the kingsmoot without spending too much time away from the main characters

  20. Paulette
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know about you guys but when they say they are celebrating the half-way point, I’m pretty sure they mean the half-way point OF THE SERIES not of the books. If the idea is to end the series in 8 seasons then season 4 is the half-way point.

  21. Valyrian eyes
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Kevin:
    They can have a few scenes introducing Dorian Martell and his schemes, and introduce the Greyjoys & the kingsmoot without spending too much time away from the main characters

    I’d put my money on Dorne being in in a simpler way (that will of course bring the “it would have been better if they had cut it altogether” comments), and the ironmen…not so much

  22. Alan
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Jeb: Whilst, I agree with the sntiments, this is a completely ridiculous comment. I already have a fair number of Unsullied friends who don’t know all the minor characters names, and are already moaning about episodes switching between too many storylines. I think we’d all like for both Dorne and the Iron Islandsto be shown, but from a TV point of view there’s little point to them.

    You might not like it, but the Unsullies viewer is far more important to HBO than the Sullied one as they make up more of the audience. If too many new additions are made then the show will lose viewers, as it will become too confusing. Simple. And, Martin’s plot progression of a snail’s pace would be too slow on the show for too many seasons. Any individual who seriously believed that they were going to include both these elements and finish in 7 (or even 8) seasons is, frankly, deluded. I’m not saying we won’t have elements of these characters, but at the very most 1/5 will stay.

    I’d rather the show finishes the sries in a staisfying, and thrillimg end, then get cancelled after 6 seasons or so, with none of the last two (unpublished) books adapted. A succesful adaptation is one that pleases both Sullied and Unsullied, and so far it has done that. But, compromises have to be made.

    The really annoying thing is, that D & D have been making this point for around 18 months now, but still people fail to accept the truth. Sigh.

    I think cuts are going to be made, but the idea that if the show took its time with Books 4 and 5 that viewers would flee so quickly it would get canceled is just silly. People didn’t flee after Ned died, and people wouldn’t flee if the pace dropped a bit or they had to deal with Victarion’s repetitive idiocy or Quentyn’s story.

    Game of Thrones has a breakneck pace — there’s really nothing quite like it that is still considered well done. The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad all moved much, much slower and spent their time on characterization. It’s not a death knell for a show.

    If cuts are made, it’s not because things are boring, but because:

    1. They aren’t going over 10 episodes a season, or roughly 550 minutes.
    2. They already struggle to develop all characters now.
    3. Most characters should have some sort of climatic ending to their storyline.

    I think that’s the biggest struggle with Feast/Dance — are there halfway climax points to those stories? Martin didn’t seem to think so for many; that’s why he split the books the way he did.

  23. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Currawong: Well said. D&D really don’t have to worry about the totally dedicated book fans, because those ‘worry about every last detail’ readers make up a very small portion of the viewing audience. There are millions of viewers who have read and enjoyed the books either before or after the show started but who really couldn’t care less whether Dany has purple eyes, or whether Vargo Hoat became Bolton bannerman Locke. And millions more are never going to read the books at all, and just want to watch a compelling TV show. There comes a point at which there are just too many characters and too many plot complexities for most viewers to cope with, and D&D are being extremely sensible in their approach to adapting the books.

    Unlike the rest of us, they DO know the endings for all the main characters and story arcs. They’ve known since early last year when they sat down with GRRM to have that big discussion about future directions, and they have talked to him in detail since then. So what they have written for Season 4 and beyond, and what gets combined, cut or amended, will have been done with a good eye on the key threads, the various end points and the ultimate ‘bittersweet’ ending that GRRM has said he plans.

    It really sounds like you guys are saying since the show can now stand on its own two feet, it has no responsibility to adapt the book faithfully like D&D committed to when the show began. I do not know about you guys, but if the show cuts Dorne and the Iron Islander, I see no way that the end seasons will look anything like the books because it is fairly obvious that both will play major roles in the things to come. I am sure that the show may still maintain it entertainment value and many people might love it, but it will not be what they set out to do.

  24. Renly's Peach
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    The plot stops expanding? What?

    A Feast for Crows would like to have a word with you, gentlemen.

  25. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think it will be possible to drastically cut the Iron Islands. The Greyjoys are just too integral to the overall story. Specifically Victarion’s fleet will, in all probability, be the conduit back to Westeros for Dany and her Unsullied, unless TWoW and ASoS throw us a curve ball, like having all the Unsullied stay in Meereen to reclaim it, and she heads off to Asshai and go “east to go west,” across the Sunset Sea and into Westeros that way. Which would be damned cool if it happens, but I’m guessing it probably won’t, plus it would just be her and the dragons, no Barristan or anybody else.

    Balon will die in the series, and there will be a Kingsmoot, but it needn’t be drawn out as it was on paper. Just a handful of 5 minute pieces over the first two episodes of Season 5. The Sheild Islands plot isn’t critical but Victarion’s fleet is. And I’m expecting big things out of Euron in the last two books as well. I also suspect Dorne will be important as well, though Quentyn “Dragon Chow” Martell’s story could just go away and we’d be all the better. “Oh.” indeed.

    Plus the show is going to need to expand far beyond the wall as well to deal with the Others’ story and what happens in Bran’s storyline, however that evolves. King’s Landing’s action is limited for the moment, Meereen will be finished after the battle early on in TWoW, Dragonstone is probably done, the Dreadfort is probably done and if “Mercy” is any indication, Braavos is probably done as well.

  26. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: Yeah, I never understand when they say things like that. Did they just stop reading after The Red Wedding?

    I often ponder, gravely, that when they say those things, they’re really preparing book readers for the excision of Dorne and the Iron Islanders.

    Frankly, I think should that be the case, then they have sadly failed to bring A Song of Ice and Fire to the screen successfully. Because they’ve really truncated the story, and made a new, narrower one within it. This wouldn’t be just plot changes for time or to make things fit, this would be cutting chunks of the story out.

    Putting the show on a pass/fail grading system is ridiculous. And by your standards, almost every adaptation of anything has “failed” because almost every adaptation has included creative departures from the book, not just changes so that they can tell the story in time.

    While determining whether a show is a “success” or a “failure” generally paints too broad a brush over the ups and downs of a series, I will say that the show will end up having more downs than ups if it tries to fit every plotline from FeastDance into the series. 10 hours was the perfect amount of time to dedicate to a book with as many characters and plotlines as Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings. As we get later in the books, the number of plotlines is increasing dramatically, but the number of hours per season is always going to stay the same.

    Making an entertaining adaption of a book that tells its story and retains its spirit is the best definition of a successful adaption that I can come up with. In order to achieve that goal, every adaptation needs to make creative changes, and D&D will need to make several if they want to take the “unfilmable” mess and put it on the screen in a way that not only stays true to the books, but is entertaining to the audience.

  27. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Chriss,

    I don’t think anyone but book purists are going to complain that those, failed plotlines imo are not going to be on the show or are cut deeply .

  28. Ser Pounce
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    I can’t wait for Jaime to tell Loras he is going to stick his sword up a place where Renly wouldn’t find it LOL.

  29. Daniellica
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    I find it quite remarkable that anyone can say that Dorne and the Iron Islands are either completely inconsequential or uncuttably important to the story that none of us knows the ending for.

    First of all, they have already NOT cut the Iron Islands as we have already been there and been introduced to Pyke and the type of people who inhabit the place. Staging a Kingsmoot does not require the introduction of a new place, though if Asha/Yara is not there to attend (i.e. if she gets captured by Stannis this season), jumping into it without having a familiar character as a guide might be confusing. But the Iron Islands is still an established location/place/idea/player.

    I am personally rooting for Dorne, as for some reason it is one of my favorite newer branches of the story. Looking at how they have treated the prior material, it seems quite a large thing to excise entirely, and I don’t think they’ll do it. Still, I cannot say how important Dorne is or is not to how the story plays out as a whole.

    Furthermore, judging D&D for our feared presumptions when we have no idea what they will or will not include (casting announcements are going to be so fun this year!) is needlessly stressful to yourself and hideously unfair to the show. There’s a difference between hashing out theories and predictions and suddenly deciding you know what the future holds and trashing the decisions we don’t even know if they’ve made. In that case, you know nothing.

  30. Chriss
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Jeb: Whilst, I agree with the sntiments, this is a completely ridiculous comment. I already have a fair number of Unsullied friends who don’t know all the minor characters names, and are already moaning about episodes switching between too many storylines. I think we’d all like for both Dorne and the Iron Islandsto be shown, but from a TV point of view there’s little point to them.

    You might not like it, but the Unsullies viewer is far more important to HBO than the Sullied one as they make up more of the audience. If too many new additions are made then the show will lose viewers, as it will become too confusing. Simple. And, Martin’s plot progression of a snail’s pace would be too slow on the show for too many seasons. Any individual who seriously believed that they were going to include both these elements and finish in 7 (or even 8) seasons is, frankly, deluded. I’m not saying we won’t have elements of these characters, but at the very most 1/5 will stay.

    I’d rather the show finishes the sries in a staisfying, and thrillimg end, then get cancelled after 6 seasons or so, with none of the last two (unpublished) books adapted. A succesful adaptation is one that pleases both Sullied and Unsullied, and so far it has done that. But, compromises have to be made.

    The really annoying thing is, that D & D have been making this point for around 18 months now, but still people fail to accept the truth. Sigh.

    As much as I appreciate your response, it’s somewhat non-sequitur. My point is that if you excise half of the main cast, you’ve not brought the books to the screen, you’ve brought an abridged story that doesn’t communicate the scope or complexity of the novels. Which, if I recall, is why we don’t have a trilogy of films. No?

    So again, I appreciate your response, but it doesn’t really negate my point. And also, if you cut, you know, half of the cast from book four on, then you’re going to just have to start writing your own alternative story to get from book III to the end. I really do appreciate the points you make, and they are concerns, but I can’t stress enough that you’re simply not telling the story of the books anymore if you excise most of them.

  31. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Chriss,

    So are you saying that garbage characters like Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy are as important as the ones from the first book, please don’t make me laugh !

  32. King of the Ashes
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    is anyone covering Peter Dinklage on the Daily Show

  33. Alan
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: As much as I appreciate your response, it’s somewhat non-sequitur. My point is that if you excise half of the main cast, you’ve not brought the books to the screen, you’ve brought an abridged story that doesn’t communicate the scope or complexity of the novels. Which, if I recall, is why we don’t have a trilogy of films. No?

    So again, I appreciate your response, but it doesn’t really negate my point. And also, if you cut, you know, half of the cast from book four on, then you’re going to just have to start writing your own alternative story to get from book III to the end. I really do appreciate the points you make, and they are concerns, but I can’t stress enough that you’re simply not telling the story of the books anymore if you excise most of them.

    No one is talking about cutting half the cast.

  34. Ser Pounce
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    Dude Victarion isn’t garbage, he is the most awesome human being alive. He can be played by that guy who was the second Spartacus.

  35. Strider
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Mark: I don’t doubt that they’ll do a great job and I’m certainly not worrying about it. But people ask George insanely detailed questions about this and that all the time. People ask D&D questions about how they plan to follow the books and how many seasons etc.. all the time as well. I’m just kind of surprised that the question I mentioned hasn’t been one of them because, I’m not sure if you’ve actually looked but people on here and other forums debate what will be included/not of those story lines constantly.

    I think your point is a very good one, actually. And it is not because I really, really wish to know what they’ll cut or not before I see it on the screen. Or because I have panic attacks like others suggested. I rather like speculating. It makes me feel a little bit Usullied so to speak, and also makes for a great exercise in imagination. Because what I think it is important might not actually be to them.

    Yours is a valid point because generally speaking book fans are a big part of the audience and the books are the source they use for the series. I really would have thought at one point it would come up. Obviously it did not. They did though ask about CH. And he got cut! LOL Maybe it is better NOT to ask…

  36. Dorne tootin
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I think “condensing” and “consolidation” will be the heavy hitters for feast and dance. Not saying there’s not plenty to cut, but just reducing the multiple/overlapping viewpoints probably trims a lot.

  37. Chriss
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m just going to make a quick point to flesh out my case, and respond to you guys. I didn’t quite realise the bizarrely defensive reaction I’d evoke by sharing my opinion on what I’d like to see and how I judge the success of the show. But I guess all die hard fans get a bit defensive, so it should be expected.

    - In response to the show, by necessity, being simpler than the books: I think the show is actually better than the books when it comes to character. Cersei, in particular, is a much more interesting, sympathetic, and complex character in the television show than she is in the book. Much the same for Tywin, who in the book, is somewhat of a Cromwell esque Puritan and nothing more. And Robb, too. Who in the books is a tedious teenager by the end. The show does tend to fail, though, when it deviates from the story. Season 2 for example gets quite messy for all its necessary brevity.

    - Regarding the show being a success or a failure: I love the show. In fact, I only read the books in last year, after season 3 ended. But I’m not just going to withhold valid criticisms for the sake of avoiding the label of being an ‘annoying book reader’. I believe the show is already a critical success, because it’s brilliant. But I believe if they excise characters who are clearly important to the overall story, have their own entire narrative arc, and affect the way in which the story progresses, then yes! I do believe they have failed to communicate the books to the screen. This is a point because the whole reason the show exists, is because Martin wanted the full tale told, and it couldn’t be done in a trilogy of movies. We were all on board with that. But yet now I’ve seen people because so reflexively defensive they’re even willing to wave away Aegon, as an unnecessary character. It seems to me, a lot of people are quite happy to keep the show between the characters we know now, even although that’s clearly not how Martin wants his novels to proceed.

    - In response to me wanting all the little details because I’m a pedantic book reader: No. Not at all. I understand that not every character can be included. Of course they can’t. Many Sand Snakes obviously need to be cut, Hotah serves no real purpose for the TV show, many of Brienne’s characters could go. I am not a purist. That’s not the issue. Where I draw the line is in waving away still continuing plots! I understand they need to be simplified, but you can’t simply decide you’re not going to have 2 of the 7 warring kingdoms included. Simplify their stories, but keep them. They’re a part of the story, they aren’t just filler. When deep, visceral cuts like that are made, it’s over. You cheated. You couldn’t find a way to do it.

    And that’s my argument.

  38. Chriss
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest:
    Chriss,

    So are you saying that garbage characters like Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy are as important as the ones from the first book, please don’t make me laugh !


    Not so much. However, Doran’s son and daughter are both fascinating characters. Arianne’s scheme in particular is great. Kevan Lannister also needs to brought back.

  39. Daniellica
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: Where I draw the line is in waving away still continuing plots! I understand they need to be simplified, but you can’t simply decide you’re not going to have 2 of the 7 warring kingdoms included. Simplify their stories, but keep them. They’re a part of the story, they aren’t just filler. When deep, visceral cuts like that are made, it’s over. You cheated. You couldn’t find a way to do it.

    But you don’t know if they have or have not been cut! You’re judging the outcome of your presumed fear! Don’t judge D&D and the show for it–judge the fans who are arguing for cutting out the things you THINK are so vital to the story! Which you do not know to be the case!

    Exclamation points!!

    A more interesting argument than “have they or have they not been cut?” might be “this is why I think/predict these stories/locations to be vital to the story–or not.”

    And that is MY argument. :D

  40. KG
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Ok, enough.

    We, as readers, cannot possibly tell which story lines are unimportant to the endgame of the books. Quit giving yourselves Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and accept it.

    And here’s a radical thought for everyone: The books are densely and thoroughly plotted; The resultant tapestry of cause-and-effect is breathtaking.

    In short, it is a near certainty that EVERY thread in this tale matters. Suck it up, Ironborn haters. Deal with it, Dorne haters. It’s all included for a reason. It may be condensed for the TV show, but I don’t think anything in these books happens randomly.

  41. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Other than Euron sending Victarion to find Danny and tame the dragons with the horn, nothing else about the Iron Islanders, their Kingsmoot, Aeron’s musings while drinking sea water, etc. matters at all.

    On the other hand, the Dornish may/may not become important later on; that depends on fAegon’s storyline. But so far, Doran, Arianne and Quentyn have done absolutely NOTHING to enhance or move the plot along. Quentyn’s storyline was not only boring and short-lived, but completely pointless. And then, the whole Young Griff thing…does anyone really care about another sure-to-be-doomed pretender to the Iron Throne, for real?

    As a reader, I may be alone in this line of thinking, but I don’t care. I still say good riddance if D&D are really thinking about axing these 2 storylines altogether.

  42. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin:
    Other than Euron sending Victarion to find Danny and tame the dragons with the horn, nothing else about the Iron Islanders, their Kingsmoot, Aeron’s musings while drinking sea water, etc. matters at all.

    On the other hand, the Dornish may/may not become important later on; that depends on fAegon’s storyline. But so far, Doran, Arianne and Quentyn have done absolutely NOTHING to enhance or move the plot along. Quentyn’s storyline was not only boring and short-lived, but completely pointless. And then, the whole Young Griff thing…does anyone really care about another sure-to-be-doomed pretender to the Iron Throne, for real?

    As a reader, I may be alone in this line of thinking, but I don’t care. I still say good riddance if D&D are really thinking about axing these 2 storylines altogether.

    Your problem seems to be that you just don’t like the books. I don’t understand what you mean by moving the plot forward? The last two books have set up all the players we kind of knew about, but weren’t acquainted with. We found out everyone’s motivations.

    I’m as biased as you, because I like the two last books. Probably because I want a fully fleshed out world and fully fleshed out character, and not just some mad run to the end. So the fact that the introduction of new characters, who’re somewhat separate from the established ones didn’t thus move on the latter’s stories isn’t really surprising. It seems to me that the pieces were all being put in place by Martin to give a truly grand resolve, with no holes left after it’s all said and done.

  43. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Daniellica: But you don’t know if they have or have not been cut! You’re judging the outcome of your presumed fear! Don’t judge D&D and the show for it–judge the fans who are arguing for cutting out the things you THINK are so vital to the story! Which you do not know to be the case!

    Exclamation points!!

    A more interesting argument than “have they or have they not been cut?” might be “this is why I think/predict these stories/locations to be vital to the story–or not.”

    And that is MY argument. :D

    No, no, of course, everything you said is true. Just mere speculation.

  44. Eleanor
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Guys, the halfway point they’re describing is AFTER SEASON 4.

    Because THEY have reached the end of Season 4. We haven’t yet.

    So no, they didn’t stop reading after the Red Wedding.

  45. David R Witanowski
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    I’d be very surprised if we didn’t end up seeing Dorne in the show. I think it would actually be quite easy to introduce the region the way AFFC does: Every new character there is reacting to the death of Oberyn, a character we knew and (hopefully) cared about. I actually think it would make sense to even include Quentyn Martell as a marginally important character in that (while it wouldn’t exactly follow the books) it would highlight the tension if the only visible reaction of Doran Martell was to send his son away on a mysterious mission, while restraining his more capable elder daughter (and the Sand Snakes), thus making their ensuing rebelliousness make more narrative sense.

    If you hit all the high points I doubt it would take more than a season to Introduce the Dornish situation, have Arianne seduce Arys, spend segments of an episode on the failed attempt to whisk away Myrcella, have Arianne locked in a tower for another episode, and finally reveal Doran’s true intentions to ally with Dany, all the while jumping back and forth to the truncated highlights of Quentyn’s journey to wed Dany. I’d also be surprised if the show (if they do indeed choose to include him) didn’t make Quentyn a more legitimately heroic and traditionally handsome man, albeit young and definitely not in Dany’s league before he gets roasted. Poor Quentyn. I don’t know what I fear worse, that he’s going to be roasted, or that he’s going to be cut.

    On an unrelated note, if Strong Belwas doesn’t make at least a cameo appearance in Daznak’s Pit next season (Season 5, I mean), color me surprised.

  46. Ser Dosser
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    KG:
    Ok, enough.

    We, as readers, cannot possibly tell which story lines are unimportant to the endgame of the books.Quit giving yourselves Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and accept it.

    And here’s a radical thought for everyone:The books are densely and thoroughly plotted; The resultant tapestry of cause-and-effect is breathtaking.

    In short, it is a near certainty that EVERY thread in this tale matters. Suck it up, Ironborn haters. Deal with it, Dorne haters. It’s all included for a reason. It may be condensed for the TV show, but I don’t think anything in these books happens randomly.

    Only characters that are important are the ones we met in book one.
    Everyone else is a “bobba fett” if you will.

    I say NO to kingsmoot filler
    I say NO to Dorne filler
    I say NO to Brianne´s endless walks trough Riverlands
    I say NO to food descriptions

    I say NO to Bran traveling to the tree
    I say NO to Ariannes endless traveling to Aegon
    I say NO to Aegons traveling to Mereen only to change his mind when hes half way there.
    I say NO to an entire season of Tyrion beeing drunk and traveling by foot or a ship to Mereen.

    I say NO to Victorian traveling an entire season to Mereen

    I say NO to all TRAVELING

    I most of the fu*k ALL i say NO to Daenerys LEAVING fu*king Mereen when Tyrion and Victorian finally get there after a GRRMs worth of book traveling just to get to her.

  47. Strider
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Ser Dosser:
    I say NO to all TRAVELING

    I most of the fu*k ALL i say NO to Daenerys LEAVING fu*king Mereen when Tyrion and Victorian finally get there aftera GRRMs worth of book traveling just to get to her.

    That makes no sense Ser Dosser!!! NO SENSE! LOL
    Those two sentences completely contradict themselves. Be reasonable, pick one :P

    I vote for Tyrion and Vic traveling, with Dany staying in Meereen.

  48. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Ser Dosser,

    Hahahaha.

    By the way, the poster who discussed the Introduction of Dorne, I think you’ve got it done perfectly.

  49. SHK12344
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Some folks really need to wake up and realize that the show is already unwieldy as it is with so many characters spread out in many different directions seemingly without any coherent purpose.

    As a book reader, I can always go back pages to reread chapters and develop better understanding of the characters and plotlines. TV viewers don’t have that luxury. It’s either you make an impact upon first viewing or you lose viewership forever.

    Going forward, it’s inevitable many characters that’s introduced in the latter part of the series will be streamlined and in some case outright eliminated from the show. Let’s stop pretending every new character is essential to the series. The producers knows the outline the series and will plan future characters and plotlines accordingly.

  50. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    SHK12344:
    Some folks really need to wake up and realize that the show is already unwieldy as it is with so many characters spread out in many different directions seemingly without any coherent purpose.

    As a book reader, I can always go back pages to reread chapters and develop better understanding of the characters and plotlines. TV viewers don’t havethat luxury. It’s either you make an impact upon first viewing or you lose viewership forever.

    Going forward,it’s inevitable many characters that’s introduced in the latter part of the series will be streamlined and in some case outright eliminated from the show. Let’s stop pretending every new character is essential to the series. The producersknows the outline theseries and will plan future characters and plotlines accordingly.

    Problem is, you’re making a straw man argument. No one is making that point.

  51. Ser Dosser
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    SHK12344:
    Let’s stop pretending every new character is essential to the series.

    Ohh boy, prepare yourself for an attack from the censeros.org fanatics.

  52. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Myrcella is in Dorne. Oberyn is introduced with much fanfare this season, and judging by the trailers, a big deal is made of him and Ellaria being from Dorne with its different culture. Put those two together, and the show is already preparing to visit Dorne. It may be shortened, and I don’t think anyone expects to see every single Sand Snake featured, but we will see Dorne, I’m pretty sure of that.

    As for the Iron Islands, it’s IMO a toss-up whether we will see things with our own eyes, or hear about them through Yara and Theon/Reek. But we will see/hear something about what’s going on.

    But all that will be next season. First, I want to enjoy the one that’s just around the corner!

  53. BobbyAtomic
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    I say we totally make a film of world war 2 but like cut out Russia cause they like only came in at the end and there were like totally too many people involved already, like confusing already, am i right!

  54. Greenjones
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    BobbyAtomic,

    Actually that’s not very far off from a helluva lot of movies. There are often composite characters in historical dramas leading to all sorts of lovely misconceptions.

    But unless Griff wins the war then he ain’t no Russia.

  55. Ser Dosser
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Lyanna Mormont:
    Myrcella is in Dorne.

    And who is Mryacela? OooooooooooOOOHhhhHH wait is that the blonde girl that says 2 lines and has 10 seconds of screen time in 3 seasons?

    All the prostitutes in Littlefingers brothel had more lines and screen time then Mayrcela but yes we MUST check up on her ….

    I say NO to Myarcela !

  56. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    BobbyAtomic,

    Except, Russia come in at the beginning of the war, when they split Poland with Germany in 1939, so that’s a terrible analogy. And they’re much more important to World War 2 than Dorne or the Iron Islands have been so far in ASOIAF, or are ever likely to be.

  57. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    BobbyAtomic,

    Except, Russia come in at the beginning of the war, when they split Poland with Germany in 1939, so that’s a terrible analogy. And they’re much more important to World War 2 than Dorne or the Iron Islands have been so far in ASOIAF, or are ever likely to be.

    Maybe you should reread the bit about Rhaegar marrying a Dornish woman leading to a bit of a thing.

  58. KG
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Ser Dosser,

    Again you may personally dislike those stories, but we have ZERO way of knowing if they are important. And my money is squarely on “it’s all important, or it wouldn’t be there.”

  59. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    The only important thing about her for the first half of the story was she got cheated on by Rhaegar, which could have happened to any woman. How on earth does that come close to Russia’s massive impact on the Second World War?

  60. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    Let’s just try to keep in mind that the show has, and will continue to, ‘remove pieces from the board’ pretty extensively over seasons three and four. In season three, Robb, Catelyn, Talisa, Commander Mormont, and Craster all bowed out. And in season four, Joffrey, Tywin, Shae, Ygritte, and Oberyn will do the same. And that’s to say nothing of the minor characters, and the supporting characters who just kind of fade away (like Lancel, and possibly The Hound).

    You take away all the screen-time that was previously dedicated to these characters, and you’re left with a fairly significant amount of material to fill the gaps. Not to mention certain story lines will converge for a period of time (like Stannis at the Wall).

    I think it’s pretty clear that Dorne will be featured in coming seasons, probably more so than the Iron Islands, though both will be condensed from their book story lines as it concerns the plot and the characters in said locations. If I had to guess who we’ll be seeing going forward into season five…

    Doran, Arianne, Tyene, Euron, Victarion, Jon Connington, (f)Aegon, Randyll Tarly, Wyman Manderly, and the High Sparrow would be my bare minimum guess. We may see a few others, such as Quentyn, but in very limited capacities.

  61. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    Chriss,

    The only important thing about her for the first half of the story was she got cheated on by Rhaegar, which could have happened to any woman. How on earth does that come close to Russia’s massive impact on the Second World War?

    Someone says if Rhaegar hadn’t married a sickly woman, perhaps none of this would have happened. Because of course he was supposed to marry Cersei, under Tywin’s plan. And so on from there. The Dornish are involved in everything, plotting and scheming, just off stage. Their plans have come to fruition now, and they’ve interjected themselves. Or are about to, rather. So there. There at the beginning, will be there at the end.

  62. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:39 am | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    Let’s just try to keep in mind that the show has, and will continue to, ‘remove pieces from the board’ pretty extensively over seasons three and four. In season three, Robb, Catelyn, Talisa, Commander Mormont, and Craster all bowed out. And in season four, Joffrey, Tywin, Shae, Ygritte, and Oberyn will do the same. And that’s to say nothing of the minor characters, and the supporting characters who just kind of fade away (like Lancel, and possibly The Hound).

    You take away all the screen-time that was previously dedicated to these characters, and you’re left with a fairly significant amount of material to fill the gaps. Not to mention certain story lines will converge for a period of time (like Stannis at the Wall).

    I think it’s pretty clear that Dorne will be featured in coming seasons, probably more so than the Iron Islands, though both will be condensed from their book story lines as it concerns the plot and the characters in said locations. If I had to guess who we’ll be seeing going forward into season five…

    Doran, Arianne, Tyene, Euron, Victarion, Jon Connington, (f)Aegon, Randyll Tarly, Wyman Manderly, and the High Sparrow would be my bare minimum guess. We may see a few others, such as Quentyn, but in very limited capacities.

    See, that’s a great point you make that people seem to ignore. So many characters who make the show are about to leave. Joffrey and Tywin, especially. We need new characters to root for. Quentyn Martell could fill that role nicely, if they build him up well. As could Arianne. One character I’d suggest they should reintroduce soon, as soon as the wedding, would be Kevan Lannister. He’s pretty important.

  63. Mark
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Some of you people blow my mind with all the shit you want cut. Obviously they have to shrink things down, but wow. Some of you would pretty much get rid of the 4th and 5th books. All this “traveling” and Tyrion being drunk throughout Essos, Aegon heading to Mereen then changing his mind, etc etc… is integral to the further growth and development of the characters. Also, lots of these newer “unimportant” characters to you have plot lines that one way or another end up affecting “the only important characters from the first book”.

    I’m not one of the ones freaking out or worrying about what D&D do because it will be great no matter what. But it seems some of you just don’t want to see Martin’s fully fleshed out story in the show OR the books. And like someone else mentioned, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and others were very slow burners over time. Thrones can easily include these other story lines and be totally fine. It’s just a matter of fitting it all within the seasons they can do… And thankfully D&D have done their best to cut stuff or change things thus far that don’t or haven’t really had any adverse effect on the plot. Sure, season 2 was a bit sloppier than book 2, but I get why they had to do things how they did and it still changes nothing down the road.

    The remaining seasons of the show and the remaining books of the series will BOTH be excellent in their own ways, period.

    It would just make people like me, even more excited if we find out these other new characters and plots will be included. Not worried, but like someone else mentioned, just adds speculation and excitement. Love when all the casting predictions and location predictions start rolling around, etc…

    P.S. I definitely remember an old interview with George and he said D&D intend on at least including Doran and Arriane in terms of the Dorne story. I’d say Jon Con, Aegon, Euron and Victarion are no brainers as well. Mark my words they’ll all be in. Personally, I think a decent amount of even more of the minor characters referring to those plot lines will be in as well. Not all, but some.

  64. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Yeah, I think we’ll likely see Kevan some time during season five. I’m also holding out hope that the production will bring back the actor who played the Greatjon for season five, making him and Manderly the ‘faces’ of the northern rebellion against the Boltons. I mean, why send Rickon & Osha there if that isn’t the plan?

  65. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    That’s incredibly tenuous at best, sorry. Someone speculates that her being sickly was a motivation for Rhaegar, which may or may not have been true, and this somehow makes Elia incredibly important? Just silly. And their scheming wasn’t even in the books until ASOS. Their “plan” didn’t turn up until AFFC. So, once again, not even close to as important as Russia to WW2, and overall pretty insignificant for a large portion of the books.

  66. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:15 am | Permalink

    New guess for Brienne:
    Season 4: ends with Brienne witnessing the Epilogue scene and Lady Stoneheart.
    Season 5:
    Stoneheart’s trial is in episode 1 and the episode ends with Brienne’s hanging and “sword”.
    Episode 2 will have Brienne prepare for her journey (to bring Jamie to Stoneheart) and some BWB scenes (Berric lives in the show, Thoros and Anguy are there too).
    Episode 3 will have Brienne set out to Jamie with Thoros (who Stoneheart requested to make sure they get the job done) and Podrick while Jamie sets off for Riverrun.
    In Episode 5 or 6, Thoros will replace Meribald and tell Brienne and Podrick about broken men. In the same episode, thet get attacked by a group of bandits and Thoros and Brienne show just how badass they are. From one of the bandits they understand Jamie has set off to Riverrun and they change their course.
    In Episode 7 or 8 they reach the Quiet Isle and talk about Arya and the Hound with the Elder Brother (and they see a mysterious gravedigger).
    They then disappear until episode 10 when Brienne meets Jamie (alone) and convinces him to join her.

    I think I earned a cookie.

  67. Red Hound
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest:
    Chriss,

    So are you saying that garbage characters like Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy are as important as the ones from the first book, please don’t make me laugh !

    Garbage? For what you know, Euron could finish the saga sitting in the Iron Throne with Tyrion as his buffoon and Victarion lord of Meereen with Daenerys as his consort. Who’d be more important than who then?

  68. Benjamin Wakefield
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    Y’all acting as if finishing the show is some kind of chore that everyone wants to get over with ASAP. As if stories are all about what happens next in a single plot thread, like a trashy thriller. The joy of ASoIaF and GoT, for book readers and the unsullied, is spending time with a bewildering variety of dramatic characters in exciting locations. Euron & Victarion Greyjoy and Doran & Arianne Martell were a pleasure to read about and will be even better on screen.

  69. eleven
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    Halfway point and it still looks like highgarden in summer 200m south of the wall…

  70. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    That’s your opinion. Most people would call Euron evil or awesome rather than garbage (even if they hate the Iron Islands story and want it cut). You see, you are putting your opinion into it and that doesn’t strengthen your point at all.

  71. fire and blood
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    I dont really see them cutting Euron Crow’s Eye from the story, he’s just to central to the Greyjoy story arc.I do however see them cutting Victarion or Aeron or perhaps merging these two into one brother for the series.And I also see them cutting Quentyn Martell from the series..especially since they have already cast the role of Hizdahr zo Loraq for this season….just my opinion

  72. Hounded
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Yeah that’s a pretty good guess – I think that would be cool. Like the idea of Thoros going with Brienne (need more Paul Kaye!) However Stoneheart becomes the leader of the BWB because Beric dies. If he doesn’t then surely he’d still be the leader? And no cookie for spelling Jaime’s name wrong.

  73. Billybob
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    LOVE the idea of Thoros going with Brienne!! Love it, Love it, Love it.
    He would volunteer to go with her to “Make sure she doesn’t run away” but really he just doesn’t approve of Stoneheart’s new ways.

  74. Maginor
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:02 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    Joffrey and Tywin die, so we will need new characters to root for? Other than that I agree with your point that the story would get very impoverished if they cut all the new characters.

  75. Donut
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:06 am | Permalink

    “It feels like this is the season where the “GoT” universe finally stops expanding and starts contracting, and the resulting collisions can be a lot of fun.”

    This means they either didn’t read the books or they are going to cut almost whole book 4+5.

  76. Hounded
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:13 am | Permalink

    Maginor,

    I guess he meant root against. I think Roose and Ramsay will kind of replace Tywin and Joffrey as the premier villains. There’s always Cersei who a lot of viewers think of as a villain.

  77. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    KG:
    Ok, enough.

    We, as readers, cannot possibly tell which story lines are unimportant to the endgame of the books.Quit giving yourselves Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and accept it.

    And here’s a radical thought for everyone:The books are densely and thoroughly plotted; The resultant tapestry of cause-and-effect is breathtaking.

    In short, it is a near certainty that EVERY thread in this tale matters. Suck it up, Ironborn haters. Deal with it, Dorne haters. It’s all included for a reason. It may be condensed for the TV show, but I don’t think anything in these books happens randomly.

    See, you’re significantly more optimistic than I am about the upcoming relevance of the new characters and storylines. I find it hard to imagine that ALL of the storylines will have a significant effect on the ultimate endgame, at least not in ways that are pretty easy to cut (for example…Someone else besides Victarion provides ships to Dany, or she just buys ships or something…

    And while I respect GRRM as a writer, he’s already given evidence that there are some plotlines that are more thematically important than they are relevant to the central conflict in the story. Exhibit A: Arianne’s plot to put Myrcella on the throne. Exhibit B: Quentyn’s attempts to marry Dany.

    I would agree though that we, as readers who don’t know much about the story post ADWD, probably shouldn’t be too speculative as to how important the different storylines will be in the larger scheme of the story. But D&D know broad strokes what happens in the end, so they have a much better idea of what storylines are important. And I cannot see anyway of making this series entertaining and manageable without the combining or cutting of entire storylines, there’s just too many out there.

  78. GG
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    I’d hardly say it stops expanding. I mean, unless they’re gonna cut Tyrion’s jouney through the Free Cities.

  79. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Khal-A-Bunga:
    Let’s just try to keep in mind that the show has, and will continue to, ‘remove pieces from the board’ pretty extensively over seasons three and four. In season three, Robb, Catelyn, Talisa, Commander Mormont, and Craster all bowed out. And in season four, Joffrey, Tywin, Shae, Ygritte, and Oberyn will do the same. And that’s to say nothing of the minor characters, and the supporting characters who just kind of fade away (like Lancel, and possibly The Hound).

    You take away all the screen-time that was previously dedicated to these characters, and you’re left with a fairly significant amount of material to fill the gaps. Not to mention certain story lines will converge for a period of time (like Stannis at the Wall).

    I see this argument sometimes, but I think it misses the fundamental problem with the adaptation of FeastDance. The major problem isn’t that there are too many characters (though that is a problem), it’s that the characters are scattered over too many storylines. Killing Robb & Co. did make room for another storyline, that’s true. But almost all of the characters killed off this season are ones that share screen time, or share a storyline with, a central character who is still going to be having a storyline post Season 4, perhaps even breaking off from others he/she shared a storyline with.

    The highest number of storylines that Game of Thrones was able to handle for one season was 10 for season 3 (Robb & Co, King’s Landing, Jaime, Theon, Team Dragonstone, Bran, Arya, Jon, Sam, and Dany). In FeastDance, I count significantly more: Jon, Sam, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, Davos, Bran, Theon, Brienne, Arianne, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon

    So we either give every storyline the Stannis treatment, where the central character of the storyline only shows up for about four or five episodes, or we get the number of storylines to a manageable level. That may involve cutting Dorne and Iron Islands out, depends on how important they are to the endgame. Not necessarily whether they are important in some way, but how important, essentially how hard will it be for D&D to maneuver around those storylines and still give the main characters audiences have been following since Season One the compelling story arcs they deserve.

  80. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    Billybob,

    Yes. Thoros is truly a keeper. As for Berric, I just don’t see them killing him off nonchalantly in the background. If he gets to die in an epic battle without Thoros around, that would be better. And I do think Berric and Stoneheart could lead the BWB together.

  81. Leo
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    It would be an interesting shortcut on the Queenmaker plot if it was simply referenced in a quick 5 min scene with Cersei finding out the news and being conflicted about supporting Tommen over (disfigured) Myrcella or wondering what supporting Myrcella would be like. And depending on how far Oberyn influences Cersei this season, she could wonder a lot about Dornish law. Who knows… maybe she partly gets arrested for such conspiracy by the High Sparrow.

    Arianne is cool, but seeing such an interesting storyline that ultimately leads nowhere is better served under an existing character (Cersei) who is closer related to Myrcella than Arianne.

  82. UnbowedUnbentUnhodor
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Mark:
    Some of you people blow my mind with all the shit you want cut. Obviously they have to shrink things down, but wow. Some of you would pretty much get rid of the 4th and 5th books. All this “traveling” and Tyrion being drunk throughout Essos, Aegon heading to Mereen then changing his mind, etc etc… is integral to the further growth and development of the characters. Also, lots of these newer “unimportant” characters to you have plot lines that one way or another end up affecting “the only important characters from the first book”.

    I’m not one of the ones freaking out or worrying about what D&D do because it will be great no matter what. But it seems some of you just don’t want to see Martin’s fully fleshed out story in the show OR the books. And like someone else mentioned, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and others were very slow burners over time. Thrones can easily include these other story lines and be totally fine. It’s just a matter of fitting it all within the seasons they can do… And thankfully D&D have done their best to cut stuff or change things thus far that don’t or haven’t really had any adverse effect on the plot. Sure, season 2 was a bit sloppier than book 2, but I get why they had to do things how they did and it still changes nothing down the road.

    The remaining seasons of the show and the remaining books of the series will BOTH be excellent in their own ways, period.

    It would just make people like me, even more excited if we find out these other new characters and plots will be included. Not worried, but like someone else mentioned, just adds speculation and excitement. Love when all the casting predictions and location predictions start rolling around, etc…

    P.S. I definitely remember an old interview with George and he said D&D intend on at least including Doran and Arriane in terms of the Dorne story. I’d say Jon Con, Aegon, Euron and Victarion are no brainers as well. Mark my words they’ll all be in. Personally, I think a decent amount of even more of the minor characters referring to those plot lines will be in as well. Not all, but some.

    Finally someone with sense.

  83. UnbowedUnbentUnhodor
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    I like this idea a lot!

  84. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    He still sucks as a character, boring crappy one dimensional cliché pirate villain with a retarded Viking brother who is also a cliché one dimensional character, I don’t care about them

  85. Premislaus
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Brienne’s journey is exactly the kind of filler they should be cutting out, I really see no point on spending time with that tertiary arc. Just have her nearly hanged and then get her to Jaimie offscreen, which is what (for once) happened in the books.

    As for the other storylines:

    Iron Islands: Aeron can be cut. Introduce Euron and Victarion early in S5, have a kingsmoot scene. Then Euron sends Victarion for Danny and sets for the Reach (offscreen). From that one, some scenes with Vic on the journey, highlighting both his stupidity and badassery, and meeting Moqorro.

    Dorne: Ellaria takes the role of (most) Sand Snakes. Doran sends out Quentyn on his journey (happens most offscreen, thought I think it would be fun if he appeared in the background of other people’s storylines). Some simplified version of Myrcella plot. Season ends with rumours about Aegon and Arianne going to meet him.

  86. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    I predict more Iron Island than Dorne, seeings as they almost certainly will have bigger repercussions on season 5 as a whole. I imagine at least one battle will make it into the next episode 9, and that battle will be Meereen, as D&D have made it fairly clear that they will be speeding up that arc. Thus, Victorian is almost certainly making it, and I think Euron will have some big moments in books to come, so he will too.

    My prediction for Yara this season is that she will fall back to Moat Cailin aftter a failed Dreadfort attack, then leave there too after hearing of Balons failed swimming lesson, thus leaving the castle to the other Ironborn (who will then be tricked into a flaying by Reek). This could then leave us with her in the Islands for season 5, thus allowing the Greyjoy sorties to branch out from their, with a familiar face to introduce the new ones.

    With Dorne, I have no clue. I doubt they will focus too heavily on an arc next season with no foreseeable payoff. To me, badass vikings tying into Stannis, Dany and the Tyrells is probably more watchable for unsullied than a fairly cut off, self contained story, no matter how big an impact it will have later on.

  87. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    Premislaus,

    Well what I suggested requires only a small amount of Brienne screentime in season 5 (what, seven or eight 3 minute scenes?), and I doubt she will disappear for a whole season. The last time the writers did that was with Jamie in season 2 and they weren’t very happy about it. I do agree about everything else, though.

  88. Hounded
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Yeah if Brienne’s stuff was trimmed down to just the interesting stuff like the Quiet Isle and her fights then I think it could be great, especially if she’s with Thoros. Do you think Gendry will be involved in her story in any way? Maybe some Brienne/ Thoros/ Gendry scenes?

  89. jentario
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Hounded,

    I agree. It’s only really her first few AFFC chapters that were outright boring, and if you cut the fat and split some of her stuff between seasons 4 and 5 you could make an interesting arc. About Gendry, I think that if he’ll ever be involved with Brienne, it’ll have to be set up in season 4. We already know Gendry will appear at some point this season, just not how and when. It would certainly make sense for Brienne and Gendry to meet up as he knows Arya was with the BWB, and that could set up Brienne’s meeting with Stoneheart as well as bring Gendry back to where he is in the books. We will see this season.

  90. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Podrick shouldn’t go with Brienne and Thoros because he’s the Brotherhood’s bargaining chip. The whole reason she has to bring Jaime to them is because they will kill Podrick if she doesn’t. If Podrick goes with her then they could just leave and never go back.

  91. JP Dayne
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    so it’s basically confirmed that the greyjoy brothers are getting the axe and maybe even arianne and the sand snakes. Maybe we’ll get quentyn (so he can be fried) and Doran with a generic guard behind him talking to Ellaria Sand

    oh well

  92. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    That’s why Thoros joins them :)
    But yeah he could stay with the BWB.

  93. Leo
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    JP Dayne,

    I don’t know how you can axe something canon. Tyrion told Theon in S1 that he remembers his uncles burning Lannisport.

  94. Balerion The Cat
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    We finally got an official statement about Tommen’s recasting at the end of this article: http://www.vulture.com/2014/03/db-weiss-on-game-of-thrones-kids-aging.html?mid=googlenews

    And when it doesn’t seem like people are matched right for their characters anymore, you recast — at least for some parts. Joffrey’s younger brother Tommen, for instance, who is supposed to be about 8 at this point in the story and was previously played by child actor Callum Wharry, has been replaced by teenager Dean Charles Chapman for season four. At least it won’t seem as strange if or when he’s forced into a political marriage, too!

  95. Crabber's Son
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    So far D&D have only cut characters that were really just unnecessary i cant say there has been any character cut so far that I even really noticed was cut. They only cut the silly characters or reshaped them I mean vargo hoat and strong belwas were like cartoon characters almost. I seriously doubt they will cut: Arianne, Victarion, Euron, Areo, Aerys Oakheart, Darkstar, Quentyn, Doran, 2-3 Sandsnakes.

    Characters that could be cut without bothering me: Anyone not mentioned because I cant even remember their names.

  96. Rhymes with Freak
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    I’ve been lurking for a while, time to post, hehe.

    Re: Euron & Victarion

    In season 1, episode 4 (I believe), as Tyrion is about to leave Winterfell, he gives Theon money for his next “tumble” with Ros. Before that though, they discuss the Iron Fleet burning the ships at Lannisport, with Theon being proud and Tyrion being disgusted.

    But – Tyrion says “that was your uncles’ work, I believe” or something to that effect.

    So the Greyjoy uncles (at least 2 of 3) are show canon by dialogue if nothing else. Understandably things may have changed in D & D’s mind since they began the show but usually its in the case of adding rather than subtracting (i.e. no mention of Shireen in season 2, they throw her back in in season 3).

    As far as Dorne, it’s been established as having some significance since season 2, when Tyrion does his triple gambit with Pycelle/Varys/Baelish. Cersei’s cry of “the Martells hate us”, plus plenty of mention of Dorne in dialogue. Plus the upcoming fanfare of Oberyn and Ellaria and the fallout from what will happen – all this points to Dorne being significant in the show as well. As others said, you can have 2, maybe 3 sand snakes, but I think you need Doran, Quentyn, and Arrianne, plus it would follow the show’s method of slowly bringing in the new families season by season.

    With the Tyrells, it went basically:
    Season 1 – Loras
    2 – Maergery
    3 – Oleanna
    4 – Mace

    I can imagine with Martells:
    4 – Oberyn & Ellaria
    5 – Doran & Arriane, maybe a sand snake or 2
    The only question would be Quentyn, and I dont have an answer for that.

    I like the Martells, because Doran in particular is playing the long game, and as we are seeing with the Tyrell’s increasing influence, sometimes the long game wins out in the end.

  97. Rhymes with Freak
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Argh, you beat me to it while I was writing my essay.

    Leo: Leo
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    JP Dayne,

    I don’t know how you can axe something canon. Tyrion told Theon in S1 that he remembers his uncles burning Lannisport.

  98. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Oh okay. Yeah well maybe then. Or Thoros and Gendry go with Brienne and Pod stays?

  99. Balerion The Cat
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:29 am | Permalink
  100. A Secret Baratheon
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I think when people look at the number of storylines in terms of location, they are looking at it wrong.

    King’s Landing, in particular, will be seen a lot less once Tywin is dead and Tyrion leaves. Considering it as one storyline in seasons 1-4 and season 5 onwards is a little erroneous. Just think of all the scenes in the past few seasons that can be replaced by the Kingsmoot, Dorne plotting, etc… Tywin’s political machinations (dealing with Olenna, Cersei, etc.), the Tyrells plotting (Olenna will likely be gone after this season), most everything involving Shae.

    If the travelogues are trimmed (which I am sure they will be), there will be plenty of room for Dorne and the Iron Islands. The way I envision it, each storyline will only need 15-20 minutes apiece (in a ten hour season) – Dorne (Ellaria’s return to Sunspear and the people’s discontent, the queenmaker plot, Doran’s reveal), Iron Islands (Kingsmoot, Euron sends off Victarion, Victarion talks with the dusky woman and reveals the history of the brothers and his intention to wed Dany himself, battle and picking up Moqorro).

    JonCon and Aegon will be folded in with Tyrion’s story, and should only need one or two scenes themselves after that.

    tl;dr – I don’t see what all the fuss is about, there’s plenty of room for the new guys.

  101. gdk
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    The characters I’m most excited to have cross paths will be Tyrion and Jorah in season 5

  102. Tatters
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt,

    What if they save the dornish arc a searson, and just introduce Quentyn and Doran?

  103. Clark
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    It doesn’t seem like anyone’s even explored this possibility, but I take this mainly as a strategic comment. When they keep saying “there are lots of Episode 9s this season; you don’t have to wait for one late-season moment! they are trying to get viewers excited about watching early episodes and keep their viewership high. When they say “Characters start meeting! It’s not as hard to keep track of all the people and places!”, it could quite easily be directed towards the people reading the interview that have found the show to be impossibly complex and confusing.

    As for cutting potentially important locales/characters, it’s pretty pointless to speculate at this point. My theory is they’ll just push back introducing characters that *might* be important so they don’t have to keep them on contract for 4 more seasons (ie. the Reeds). Nothing we can do about it either way, though.

  104. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    gdk,

    Yeah that will be cool to see.

    I’m really looking forward to scenes with Jon and Stannis. I love the grudging respect they have for each other.

  105. Tatters
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    I couldnt disagree more about them being one-dimensional. If you have any respect for this story you should appreciate them being well-handled.

  106. jentario
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    Any of those could work. But Thoros + Brienne is definitely my new non-romantic ship.

  107. jentario
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    A Secret Baratheon,

    I second this. I am also working on my full season 5 layout (yes, a lot of free time on my hands) and it all fits in pretty nicely in terms of screentime and pacing. The only reason D&D could think of for cutting away these storylines would be if they don’t want viewers to have to follow 14ish storylines, screentime has never been a problem since there’s a lot to cut in AFFC and ADWD and while it could have been a slower paced season and a half, they decided to push it mostly into one season (which gives it more punch). I honestly don’t see D&D cutting both storylines, though one would be possible (though I hope not). Now, where can I post a long episode layout? Maybe Ser Tahu could help me.

  108. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I’d be interested in seeing your layout. I’m really interested to see how they do season 5.

    What do you think episode 9 will be? Daznak’s Pit? Battle of Meereen? Jon’s stabbing, Cersei’s walk?

  109. vlad
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    I don’t think I could forgive them if they cut Dorne and Young Griff. I could see a way for them to cut the Iron Islands almost completely. They could keep only 1-2 characters for the future events that have the ironborn in them, but take the islands out completely. It could be done in a satisfying way. It can’t be said the same about Dorne. The Red Viper might be cool but he is nowhere near as important to the overall story as the Prince and Princess of Dorne.

  110. Turncloak
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    If we don’t get this line does this give us permission to chuck the books at D&D :)? #nooneunderstaaaands

    “Few of the birds Maester Aemon had returned as of yet. One found Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared.”

  111. queenofthorns
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    Controversial opinion from a book reader: The vast majority of the AFFC and ADWD PoV’s should never have happened. Somewhere along the way, George lost the ability to tell story from a limited number of perspectives. Look at GoT through SoS – often entire battles, and even entire wars, are fleshed without having to trudge along behind some new character no one cares about. Robb’s story was wonderfully told via Catelyn. Prince Oberyn shows up in KL and George ably fleshes out his backstory using Tyrion. We never had to have 3 intro chapters watching him ride a horse from Dorne, which is, sadly, exactly what we were subjected to in Dance and Feast for a horde of characters.

    Quentyn should never have been a PoV character. His impact would have been, if anything, greater as a character who shows up and stirs things up, like his uncle did in KL.

    Arianne should have had a single PoV chapter, either an epilogue or prologue. The only important thing thta happens is Myrcella being maimed and her finding out her dad’s a loyalist. That could have been 1 chapter. In fact, you could cut her.

    Victarion, like Quentyn, would have been better served not being a PoV. We can find out about him and Euron, through a single Kingsmoot chapter from Asha’s perspective, then have him show up in Meereen like he’s obviously going to do in TWOW.

    Aeron and Areo Hotahs’ chapters were incredibly boring and what happens in them would have been told better from a regular PoV character’s perspective, or not at all until it is relevant.

    I don’t even see the point of a Melisandre chapter. Unlike some I already saw her for who she was, a fervent believer who thinks she is saving the world. I mean it’s not that hard to get from subtext unless you’re unable to get outside Davos’ head. She is always in the presence of one PoV or another so what’s the point.

    Barristan was ok, I suppose, but really I’d rather just cut Meereen when Dany is not present. We can find out what happens when she gets back.

    Cersei chapters will be shown on screen, I’m sure. They have to have something going on in KL. So that’s OK. Brienne, too, will be shown this season and maybe next but massively cut I think, since she’s obviously a favorite.

  112. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    I agree with you about Aeron, Victarion, Arys Oakheart and Areo Hotah but not with the Meereen bit. I think Meereen got way better after Dany left. I loved the stuff with Barristan taking control and Quentyn attempting to steal a dragon. It was tense and felt dangerous whereas Dany’s PoVs in Meereen just felt stagnant and stale.

  113. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Clark:
    It doesn’t seem like anyone’s even explored this possibility, but I take this mainly as a strategic comment. When they keep saying “there are lots of Episode 9s this season; you don’t have to wait for one late-season moment! they are trying to get viewers excited about watching early episodes and keep their viewership high.

    I agree. These comments strike me mostly as trying to keep enthusiasm high among the Unsullied.

    Balerion The Cat:
    We finally got an official statement about Tommen’s recasting at the end of this article: http://www.vulture.com/2014/03/db-weiss-on-game-of-thrones-kids-aging.html?mid=googlenews

    This, however, I don’t understand. I think it’s actually quite charming and appealing that Tommen remains childlike. His marriage to Margaery is *supposed* to be weird. Actually, one of the things that I like most about Margaery in the books is how kind she is to Tommen, how she lets him be a child. Sure, she does it for her own benefit, but that’s the thing about Margaery: her self-interested manipulations *generally* involve being nice to nice people.

  114. queenofthorns
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes:
    queenofthorns,
    I agree with you about Aeron, Victarion, Arys Oakheart and Areo Hotah but not with the Meereen bit. I think Meereen got way better after Dany left. I loved the stuff with Barristan taking control and Quentyn attempting to steal a dragon. It was tense and felt dangerous whereas Dany’s PoVs in Meereen just felt stagnant and stale.

    Oh don’t get me wrong he also should have cut half of the material from Dany, Tyrion, and Jon. Yet I would have preferred to have Quentyn and Victarion from her and Tyrion’s perspectives. I like Quentyn, but I was only interested in him after he got to Meereen (aka when he became relevant).

    Solution: Get to Drogon + Dany leaving in 4 chapters instead of 9. Get Tyrion to Mereen in 5 chapters instead of 12. Then, you have a half a book to have Tyrion tell us about Quentyn, Barristan, etc from an outsider’s perspective.

  115. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Clark,

    So are you saying they are lying, that’s what you basically mean ? If so I think you are a little bit on the delusional side of things .

  116. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    It was just a thought though, not an actual line, and who would Sam even say it to? What context could it be brought up in?

  117. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    queenofthorns,

    The problem with your idea is the same as everyone who want the cuts. You didn’t like books 4 and 5, don’t care about the new characters getting developed, and would rather the focus was kept on the original story, before it expanded. The problem is, that’s not what happened. The story has moved on. The Red Wedding really did end part 1 of the saga. The war is over, the Lannisters won. People need to accept that. We’ve moved on to the second phase with new upstarts.

    Arianne, for example, is a brilliant character with an extremely interesting story, totally intertwined with the history of the entire series, but because you don’t want that expansion, you’d happily cut it all. Instead, favouring a more linear, narrow narrative focusing on the earlier books. But that’s just not what the story is anymore. I think people just need to accept that.

  118. GeekFurious
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Chriss:
    queenofthorns,

    The problem with your idea is the same as everyone who want the cuts. You didn’t like books 4 and 5, don’t care about the new characters getting developed, and would rather the focus was kept on the original story, before it expanded. The problem is, that’s not what happened. The story has moved on. The Red Wedding really did end part 1 of the saga. The war is over, the Lannisters won. People need to accept that. We’ve moved on to the second phase with new upstarts.

    Well said.

  119. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    vlad:
    It can’t be said the same about Dorne. The Red Viper might be cool but he is nowhere near as important to the overall story as the Prince and Princess of Dorne.

    Well, seeing as they know how the ending is going to pan out and we don’t, maybe they won’t really be important to the overall story at all, and cutting them is a good idea. Always a possibility.

  120. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    This sound like such a cringeworthy line even in text, on screen it will sound like crap .

  121. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    Well what works in the books doesn’t work in the show, keeping focus on the characters no viewers cares about instead of the actual main characters means viewers lose interest, the show loses momentum and finally it would be cancelled and don’t even try to say that would not happen, just look at True Blood and how much momentum that show lostwhen they started focusing on crap no one cares about instead of focusing on the main story, yes I know the show is not officialy cancelled, it’s “ending” but I think HBO didn’t want to upset whatever fans True Blood has left and they are trying to make it seem like it’s the creators choice when we know that’s not true .

  122. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    Chriss,

    That’s incredibly tenuous at best, sorry. Someone speculates that her being sickly was a motivation for Rhaegar, which may or may not have been true, and this somehow makes Elia incredibly important? Just silly. And their scheming wasn’t even in the books until ASOS. Their “plan” didn’t turn up until AFFC. So, once again, not even close to as important as Russia to WW2, and overall pretty insignificant for a large portion of the books.

    But it shows how important Dorne were. I mean Jesus, Elia was the mother of the future king or queen. – she is fAegon’s claim to the throne, with Rhaegar. Dorne smuggling the Targaryen kids out during a coup, whilst forever supporting them from the shadows seems to me just a wee bit important. The fact the Dornish fill in so much of how the pieces came into place simply ensure their inclusion for the necessity of a complete narrative. That, and the fact they obviously have a role to play. Arianne is off treating with a usurper at this very point in the story, for Christ sake.

  123. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    cosca,

    Man you sound like the only reasonable guy on here .

  124. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    I understand that. But that’s also an argument for not killing Ned Stark or Robb. ‘The viewers won’t like it. They need a main character’. Well, Er, sorry. This is the story you’ve chose to tell.

    The more main character who die, the less characters people have to root for or against. They need to introduce the characters who’ll have an effect on the overall story, their own complete arc, and who they can make fit. And they need to do it in a timely manner, so people can relate. The way the Reeds were brought in out of nowhere meant they lacked emotional resonance for many viewers.

    So whilst I understand what you’re saying, it needs to be done.

  125. jentario
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    The big moments are these: the battle outside Winterfell as the big spectacle, the High Sparrow revealing to Cersei that her plans backfired and arresting her, Jaime taking Riverrun peacefully and Arya changing her face and killing her first contract (after Daerion/Pyp). I figured the battle outside Winterfell has to happen in episode 9 if Jon is to get stabbed in episode 10 (since it all hangs on Stannis’s fake death in that battle). Meereen is the only storyline which I think they will take slowly, and it will bleed two episodes into season 6 with the battle happening in episode 3. Also, I think the ADWD King’s Landing material would be better as a season opener (including the Walk of Shame and Varys killing Kevan) and Aegon’s landing will also have to be early in season 6 (episode 1, preferably). My layout is partly guesses and partly dreams, but I do note that a lot of it can change.

  126. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    Chriss: Dorne smuggling the Targaryen kids out during a coup, whilst forever supporting them from the shadows seems to me just a wee bit important.

    Pretty sure Dorne didn’t smuggle the Targaryen kids out during the coup, the Mad King sent them to Dragonstone, then Willem Darry escaped from there with them to Bravos. The support from the shadows is something that came up much later in the books.

    For most of the first two books, Dorne is just one of the kingdoms we never see, and Elia was just the mother of the previous King’s son’s children, which is not especially important. The only significant impact they had was receiving Myrcella. They might be hugely important to the endgame, it’s hard to tell, but to say they’ve been very important from the beginning is just not true.

  127. Last Stark
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Neil,

    If the universe is contracting i think the Greyjoy storyline is going to Asha and the Dorne storyline maybe dropped.

  128. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    Chriss,

    Pretty sure Dorne didn’t smuggle the Targaryen kids out during the coup, the Mad King sent them to Dragonstone, then Willem Darry escaped from there with them to Bravos. The support from the shadows is something that came up much later in the books.

    For most of the first two books, Dorne is just one of the kingdoms we never see, and Elia was just the mother of the previous King’s son’s children, which is not especially important. The only significant impact they had was receiving Myrcella. They might be hugely important to the endgame, it’s hard to tell, but to say they’ve been very important from the beginning is just not true.

    Sorry, I confused the smuggling of the kids. I always just assumed they had a hand in it. Other than that, though, everything I said stands. Just because we didn’t find out they had a hand in everything at the beginning doesn’t mean they weren’t there. You know what I mean? We found out later, yes, but their story still goes all the way back.

  129. Hand of the Kibgslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    You should change your name to MyOpinion=Fact, it would suit you perfectly :)

  130. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kibgslayer,

    “Kibgslayer”? I’m confused. Are you Hand of the Kingslayer, but you’ve misspelt your name? And wasn’t “Hand of the Kingslayer”, jentario’s new name? yet I see someone posting as jentario as well…

  131. Cumsprite
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    cosca: Well, seeing as they know how the ending is going to pan out and we don’t, maybe they won’t really be important to the overall story at all, and cutting them is a good idea. Always a possibility.

    Oh noes! What about the world building? They can’t do this to meeeeeee!

  132. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Balerion The Cat,

    Benioff never mentions Tommen or Chapman. That’s the writer of the article mentioning him when she’s mentioning recasts, so no, Benioff or Weiss or HBO have never confirmed the recasting.

    Which is sort of hilarious because Chapman was at the NYC premiere being interviewed on the red carpet and talking about playing Tommen.

  133. Daniellica
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    The only important characters are the ones introduced in the beginning?
    Introducing characters away from the “main characters” will drive away viewership? Wasn’t the main lesson of Ned’s death that either A) there are no “main characters” or B) the “main characters” can shift and grow and change as the game is played?

    Don’t most of us love this story for its layers, its complexity, its shifting dynamics, its unpredictability, its manifold tangled webs?

    Many Unsullied (and some Sullied) would have argued that Robb & co. were the “main characters” driving the “main story” through this series. Well, we know what happened to them. Does that mean everything else is just “distraction” and a waste of time?

    I would argue that the best way this story mimics life is its diversions and varied plots and places and characters. There are often people important in our lives who then fade away or disappear entirely, either by death or shifting priorities or feuds or a change in circumstance. Our life does not then stop or become meaningless, but meaning shifts and expands and contacts and redirects, and new faces become important to us and suddenly this new area becomes more important than all that came before.

    I do not say this as a hardcore inclusionist. I know how TV is written, and I know how adaptations work. I say this because those who argue that “only the characters we already know are important for the end” are completely delusional. :D

  134. Jill
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin: Posted March 31, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink
    Other than Euron sending Victarion to find Danny and tame the dragons with the horn, nothing else about the Iron Islanders, their Kingsmoot, Aeron’s musings while drinking sea water, etc. matters at all.

    On the other hand, the Dornish may/may not become important later on; that depends on fAegon’s storyline. But so far, Doran, Arianne and Quentyn have done absolutely NOTHING to enhance or move the plot along. Quentyn’s storyline was not only boring and short-lived, but completely pointless. And then, the whole Young Griff thing…does anyone really care about another sure-to-be-doomed pretender to the Iron Throne, for real?

    To this end, I have thought for awhile that Quenten’s death might actually have long-lasting ramifications moving forward that we don’t yet anticipate. I’d actually be surprised if that ends up being the worthless side journey it seems now. And that’s my super unpopular opinion of the day.

  135. Strider
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    cosca,

    I swear yesterday I saw a different nick/ typo such as The Hand of the Kinsgslayer or something in those lines, and I thought if this thing gets out of Hand (I know, but it was right there… couldn’t be helped!), I’m starting a petition for him to use: Jaime’s Golden Hand. Haven’t seen that used yet.

    I kind of like reading Hand of the Kingslayer’s scenarios and comments and now I have to play detective to see if it’s him who types under the typos…

  136. Clark
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    I’m not saying they’re lying to us, just being practical. I don’t consider it delusional to assume that their interviews for the press are designed to get more people excited about their product.

  137. jentario
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    cosca,

    A simple typo. Forgive me!

  138. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    WHY DO YOU KEEP CHANGING YOUR NAME

  139. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    BobbyAtomic:
    I say we totally make a film of world war 2 but like cut out Russia cause they like only came in at the end and there were like totally too many people involved already, like confusing already, am i right!

    Hahaha that totally made me laugh out loud

    Ok mb Russia is not the best analogy, but how about we cut out Japan cause they like only came in at the end and there were like totally too many people involved already, like confusing already, am i right!
    And we can just show those pesky americans off-camera, because without the japanese they don’t even have a reason to get involved, and their accent is annoying!

    PS: Just kidding ofc, love you guys! ;-D

  140. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    cosca,

    Jeez. Calm down.

  141. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kibgslayer,

    Nah, I should probably change it to “Hate the last two books with a passion” that would fit it more .

  142. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    New guess for Brienne:
    Season 4: ends with Brienne witnessing the Epilogue scene and Lady Stoneheart.
    Season 5:
    Stoneheart’s trial is in episode 1 and the episode ends with Brienne’s hanging and “sword”.
    Episode 2 will have Brienne prepare for her journey (to bring Jamie to Stoneheart) and some BWB scenes (Berric lives in the show, Thoros and Anguy are there too).
    Episode 3 will have Brienne set out to Jamie with Thoros (who Stoneheart requested to make sure they get the job done) and Podrick while Jamie sets off for Riverrun.
    In Episode 5 or 6, Thoros will replace Meribald and tell Brienne and Podrick about broken men. In the same episode, thet get attacked by a group of bandits and Thoros and Brienne show just how badass they are. From one of the bandits they understand Jamie has set off to Riverrun and they change their course.
    In Episode 7 or 8 they reach the Quiet Isle and talk about Arya and the Hound with the Elder Brother (and they see a mysterious gravedigger).
    They then disappear until episode 10 when Brienne meets Jamie (alone) and convinces him to join her.

    I think I earned a cookie.

    It just occurred to me, how about if Beric takes the place of LS in the series? I guess prolly someone else already thought about it but I think it could make sense if Michelle Fairley doesn’t want to come back, or even if D&D don’t want to diminish the impact of her excellent death on camera, or if they don’t want to alieanate some viewers like the shadow monster did.

  143. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink
  144. Clark
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: It just occurred to me, how about if Beric takes the place of LS in the series? I guess prolly someone else already thought about it but I think it could make sense if Michelle Fairley doesn’t want to come back, or even if D&D don’t want to diminish the impact of her excellent death on camera, or if they don’t want to alieanate some viewers like the shadow monster did.

    If they had to, maybe, but diminishing her death scene pales in comparison to the badassery of ending S4 with LS!

  145. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen:

    The highest number of storylines that Game of Thrones was able to handle for one season was 10 for season 3 (Robb & Co, King’s Landing, Jaime, Theon, Team Dragonstone, Bran, Arya, Jon, Sam, and Dany). In FeastDance, I count significantly more: Jon, Sam, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, Davos, Bran, Theon, Brienne, Arianne, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon

    That’s very true, so what I think we’ll see is some stories cut (Quentyn+???) and some mixed (for example, Sam could stay with Jon, or go to Arya and come back, but never reach Oldtown

    Some people can sure think about clever ways to do that with more storylines so they don’t go over 10-12, tops

    Hand of the Kibgslayer:
    Tyrionisthebest,

    You should change your name to MyOpinion=Fact, it would suit you perfectly :)

    How about “Iamannoyingashell”? ;-)

    Clark:
    Tyrionisthebest,

    I’m not saying they’re lying to us, just being practical. I don’t consider it delusional to assume that their interviews for the press are designed to get more people excited about their product.

    I was actually thinking the same, they’re trying to push this message accross (basically that “Things won’t get more complicated”), but not only to the viewers, but to everyone (the press and even to the HBO execs)

    But that doesn’t mean it’s going to be true. It can all be bullshit, they can say that and end up introducing Dorne, the Ironborn uncles etc and next year they will keep on saying that. “We are now entering the phase where storylines will converge, we are accelerating towards the end of the story, people will clash” etc (wich at that point will be, hopefully, true)

  146. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: Your problem seems to be that you just don’t like the books. I don’t understand what you mean by moving the plot forward? The last two books have set up all the players we kind of knew about, but weren’t acquainted with. We found out everyone’s motivations.

    I’m as biased as you, because I like the two last books. Probably because I want a fully fleshed out world and fully fleshed out character, and not just some mad run to the end. So the fact that the introduction of new characters, who’re somewhat separate from the established ones didn’t thus move on the latter’s stories isn’t really surprising. It seems to me that the pieces were all being put in place by Martin to give a truly grand resolve, with no holes left after it’s all said and done.

    lol. If I didn’t like the books, I wouldn’t read them. After all, they’re not exactly light reading. And I don’t have any problem whatsoever, either. I’m just trying to be practical, speculating about the best way to keep Martin’s spirit in the show, w/o GoT becoming as muddled or convulsed as the last 2 books.

    Not trying to change your mind, but think about this:

    Again, so far, the Iron Islands and Dorne haven’t led to anything of import yet. Arianne’s scheming, which you seem to like so much, was good only for blowing in her face…or actually, for blowing half of poor Myrcella’s face, literally. Unless the girl does end up on the Iron Throne somehow, that whole Arianne conspiracy was nothing other than filler that helped Martin to introduce a character who may/may not become important as part of the whole fAegon subthread, depending on where Martin’s planning to take that storyline.

    As for the Iron Islands, again, the only important thing that’s come out of that subplot is Vicarion being sent to find Dany. For all we know, D&D could decide to keep Balon alive and introduce Vicarion as a new character (say a combination of him and Euron rolled into one) in season 5. They could have Balon himself send Vicarion after Dany, instead of the Crow’s Eye. Now, that would help them save $$$ on new actors, and spare time for a show that, unlike the books, has budget constraints and time limits.

    So in the end, I don’t see how cutting (or doing some heavy editing to both subplots, at least) would do any harm to the overall main story here, which clearly seems to be the imminent invasion of the Others.

    This is what I meant when I spoke of moving the plot forward.

    Keep in mind that non-book readers don’t have the luxury of a 100+ page glossary at the end of every season, and most of them are having trouble keeping up with all of the characters, as many have pointed out here already. Hence the need to “abbreviate” as much as possible, while keeping the main characters that everyone knows already intact, and the main plotlines rolling along.

    For the record, I didn’t like AFfC in the very least, but I loved ADwD, so this has got nothing to do with any kind of bias.

  147. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    “jentario” is the name on my computer. When I changed my name to HotK, I did it on my phone. One day I was on my computer posting on WiC.net and I see my name is jentario. So I ran with it.

    Tyrionisthebest,

    Whatever suits you

    Pau Soriano,

    Not happening, or else a lot of what we’ve seen in season 3 was pointless. The Bran dream where Cat goes apeshit, Cat going murdery at the Red Wedding… I also think it’s important that it’ll be her and not anyone else for multiple reasons: Brienne’s arc kind of hinges on having to choose between to vows she made- to Cat and not Beric, the whole JamieXCatXBrienne combination makes a lot of sense and is filled with closure and finally there is the potential moment when Stoneheart meets Arya or even Sansa which would just not be the same if it isn’t her.

  148. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Jill: To this end, I have thought for awhile that Quenten’s death might actually have long-lasting ramifications moving forward that we don’t yet anticipate. I’d actually be surprised if that ends up being the worthless side journey it seems now.And that’s my super unpopular opinion of the day.

    I’ve given much thought to this as well. And other than Quentyn being roasted by the dragon (I forget which one it was, sorry. Guess I need an urgent reread of ADwD lol), symbolizing or foreshadowing that an alliance between Dany and Dorne could/would/will go terribly wrong, I still fail to see any reason for that whole subthread.

    That being said, I do agree with you to an extent: that whole thing may lead to consequences yet to be seen in TWoW or ADoS. If it does, I’m sure D&D have already learned this from GRRM, and will cast the character eventually. Guess we’ll have to wait and see…

  149. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin,

    To be honest, all of ASOIAF works this way. That’s how GRRM tells this story: character X goes here with a plan, fails and evolves as a character. Why include Ned Stark when he dies really quickly? Why include Robb? He amounts to nothing in the end, doesn’t he? Why send Brienne after Sansa when she just gets intercepted by Stoneheart? Why send Jamie to Kingslanding if he goes right back to the Riverlands within a season? Because of character development. Because it’s good, interesting storytelling (this is where opinions come in). I loved Dorne and the Iron Islands and found them to be the only well paced arcs in AFFC (the rest plodded at a snail’s pace with little plot development). They explode early and powerfully- both the Kingsmoot and Arianne’s failed plot served as exciting chapters (right up there with Cersei getting punished and Brienne meeting Stoneheart and Jamie taking Riverrun).

    How important is Myrcella’s maiming really? We can’t know- that piece is yet in play. Maybe when Cersei sees her she’ll decide to announce all out war in Dorne. How important is Darkstar? We can’t know. How important is Kentucky Fried Quentyn? Very, I guess, since it creates animosity between Dorne and Dany which could lead them to declare for Aegon and fight Dany for the Throne, and he also releases the dragons (which is a point that will surely fulfill itself in TWOW). How necessary was the Kingsmoot? Not at all, but it’s A GOOD SCENE. They should keep it!

    Only D&D and Cogman and GRRM know exactly how much Dorne and the Iron Islands really matter in the long run, and they will make their choice with their own opinions in mind. We can only guess, and our opinions aren’t really relevant to them when it comes to this. They know what’s best for the show (or at least they think they do),

  150. somuchforoldtown
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    The intro of the Reeds was poorly done. But that’s okay, as the Bran character is my least favorite in the books. D&D should just kill off Bran before he goes Vegetarian and use that that film time more wisely, maybe re-introduce a more interesting character arc, like that of Kevan Lannister, which they’re going to be needing very soon.

  151. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    somuchforoldtown,

    Uhh, i’m pretty sure Bran is more important in the end game than Kevan considering he died in the last book and they can do that arc without him easily .

  152. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Hmm good ideas. I don’t think there really will be much of a battle outside winterfell. I think it will be more of an internal thing where Wyman sets his men to killing the boltons in their sleep. But yeah its a bit of a mystery how the show is gonna handle that. Either it shows us the battle or it does it like the book where we don’t see it and are left with uncertainty as to who won.

    Here’s my guesses -

    Episode 8 -

    Jon meets with Tormund
    Dany marries Hizdahr
    Ends with Cersei being arrested by the faith.

    Episode 9 – The Mortal Art

    Tormund’s wildlings pass through the wall.
    Quentyn and co hatch the plan to steal a dragon
    Cersei is visited by Qyburn and Kevan in her cell.
    Theon and Jeyne make their escape
    Daznak’s Pit, Tyrion forced to perform, Dany stops the lions being released. Great opportunity for awesome fight sequences with the pit-fighters (hopefully in an amazing roman-style Colosseum). Drogon comes, wrecks shit up then Dany flies off on him. Missandei is poisoned by locusts.

    Episode 10 –

    Theon and Yara are reunited
    Cersei’s walk of penance. Afterwards she sups with Kevan and Tommen.
    Kevan’s small counsel meeting where he details how he’s gonna sort everything out for House Lannister. Kevan and Pycelle are killed by Varys.
    Brienne reaches Jaime.
    Dany is revealed alive in Drogon’s cave.
    Barristan takes control of Meereen, arrests Hizdhar and kills Khrazz.
    Quentyn and co attempt to steal a dragon, loose them on the city.
    Jon receives the pink letter, nights watchmen and wildlings alike declare to fight for him, he gets stabbed by Bowen Marsh.

    That episode 10 might have to be an hour + but it would be a freakin’ awesome episode! They might want to save some of that stuff for season 6 though.

  153. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica,

    George has been quoted as saying he originally intended on using only povs from book one. It’s not delusional when the creator itself thought it was a good idea at one time.

  154. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Ned’s dead “only” leads to the War of the 5 Kings. The consequences of Robb’s death can be seen a mile away, especially through Wyman Manderly’s plans in ADwD. You can’t seriously compare them to say Hotah, Quentyn, Arianne, Septa Lemore, Vic, Euron and/or Aeron, for instance.

    As for Brienne, the question should be: why send her after Sansa, when the reader knows well beforehand that she won’t find the girl, no matter how hard she tries? Well, because she will be caught by the Brotherhood and brought before Lady S, precisely. Ditto for Jaime, for that matter.

    After her Walk of Shame, Cersei’s been rendered COMPLETELY powerless, especially now that she’s just lost Kevan. She’s in no position to declare war on Flea Bottom, let alone a powerful realm such as Dorne, most of all now that it seems almost clear that the Martells will forge an alliance with Connington in TWoW.

    Darkstar…I really like him, yet I’m the first to admit that he may be excluded from the show, lest he does become as important as say, Ramsay, Mance or Manderly in the future. Just because we like a certain character or plotline, that doesn’t mean it has to be included into the show when, again, there’s budget and time constraints to take into consideration.

    lmao at KF Quentyn! And, though I admit that you’ve opened my eyes to his importance, everything that you’ve described him doing can be done in a different way in the show. I.E: it’s Hizdaq Zo Loraq who frees the dragons whilst Dany’s stranded in the middle of nowhere or something along those lines. Now, if the whole Dorne subplot is left out, then there would be no need whatsoever to create any animosity between House Targaryen and House Martell in the show, would there now?

    The Kingsmoot, a good scene? Not in my opinion, as I couldn’t care less about ANY Greyjoy, other than little Reek, and only because of his importance in the whole taking of Winterfell and the Boltons vs. Stannis arcs. Hopefully, D&D will share my feelings on this matter and leave it out entirely ;-)

    I do agree that only D&D, Cogman and Martin know the exact importance of the Islands and Dorne. I’m not saying that everything about those 2 storylines will be cut. After all, we’ve already been introduced to Balon, Theon, Asha/Yara, and we’re about meet the RV and Elaria in the show.

    What I’m talking about here is Wyllas and Garlan Tyrell. See how they’ve been condensed into Loras? Well, I see similar changes made to the Martells and the Greyjoys, with most characters combined and all rolled into one, and most of those plotlines heavily edited.

    I know how important character development is, believe me. And I’m sure there will be lots of growth and development experienced by the characters in upcoming seasons, just like we’ve already seen in the books. But those are characters that the audience already knows and is very familiar with, not newcomers that may/may not fill roles that go far beyond enhancing/advancing the main characters’ plotlines.

  155. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    I like it. But I think there will definitely be an all out battle in Winterfell or else what’s the point of the early Theon chapters in TWOW? My guess is that Wyman Manderly attacks the Freys alongside Stannys in the middle of the battle and they end up faking Stannis’s death, dressing up Stannis’s men as Freys and infiltrating Winterfell undercover. Wyman then presents Ramsay and Roose Stannis’s magic sword as proof that Stannis is dead (which is written in the Pink Letter). So if I’m right… The battle should end in a cliffhanger in episode 9, and episode 10 would begin with Manderly presenting the sword to the Boltons.

    Here’s my episode 10:
    -The Daznak Pit: cool fights between pit-fighters (maybe a Strong Belwas cameo as a joke?) and then Tyrion is sent out as entertainment. The Lions are sent out but Dany orders them shot before they hurt Tyrion. Then Drogon comes in and begins munching on lion, in the commotion the Yunkaii attack him and he gets angry- burning them. Then Dany runs in with a whip and makes him stop, ends up riding off into the sunset.
    - The Pink Letter: Jon gets stabbed by Bowen Marsh’s replacement.
    - Littlefinger reveals his plan to Sansa.
    - Cersei gets abandoned by everyone and only Qyburn helps her, she tells him to send a message to Jamie so he’ll come save her
    - Jamie burns her message, and is confronted by Brienne.
    - At Winterfell, Stannis and Manderly meet and plan the final surprise attack on the Boltons.
    - Bloodraven tells Bran that Winter has arrived, and we see a montage of snow all around Westeros as many characters watch it. The final shot is a huge army of White Walkers and wights massing in Hardhome.

  156. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin,

    You can hardly compare Garlan and Wylas to the likes of Arianne and Victarion. They don’t have their own arcs and stories, they don’t have promising future roles (Arianne becoming Aegon’s queen and Victarion getting Dany to Westeros or stealing two dragons), they don’t even have POV chapters for fuck’s sake! I agree that minor characters will get cut and combined: I think 3 is the max cap on Sand Snakes in the show, Aeron WILL get cut, Quentyn could easily get cut- but Victarion and Arianne shouldn’t. Euron and Doran shouldn’t. (Though I will admit that unless Euron does something important in TWOW I can see him combined with Victarion easily).

    Cuts and alterations and combinations will be made, that’s unavoidable, but unnecessary cutting of whole plotlines is in my opinion not great at all.

  157. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Queenofthorns,

    George also expected to get it all done in one book at one point. And then three. Clearly, a lot has change- too much for you to start taking a long dropped plan seriously.

  158. cosca
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin,

    JRR Tzolkin:
    Hand of the Kingslayer,
    Darkstar…I really like him, yet I’m the first to admit that he may be excluded from the show, lest he does become as important as say, Ramsay, Mance or Manderly in the future.

    What the…

  159. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    He is of the night Costco! What don’t you like?! I agree though. So far he has only managed to fail at killing a little girl. Unless it was all a trick put on by Doran and it was all part of the plan, he comes off as the most ridiculous ASOIAF character to date that tries to sell himself as the real deal. And he’s of the night. Ugh.

  160. KG
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    How about “Not a fan anymore?”

    ;)

    Tyrionisthebest:
    Hand of the Kibgslayer,

    Nah, I should probably change it to “Hate the last two books with a passion” that would fit it more .

  161. Hand of the Kingslayer
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Say, Knee Gums, what is your opinion on AFFC and ADWD? And Dorne and the Iron Islands?

  162. Ham and Aegs
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    For the purposes of maintaining viewer loyalty and interest, I think that the Dorne and Iron Island story lines will be included but covered by characters already introduced by the end of this season. Ellaria Sand can carry on the Dorne story arc, taking the place of the Sand Snakes and maybe just introduce Doran after the death of Oberyn.

    Asha/Yara can handle the Iron Island story lines. She could be put in charge of the fleet and go to Mereen. The Victarion proposal story line could just be dropped. Does anyone really think the Dany is gonna end up marrying him? Tyrion could handle any Vic plot points in Mereen that would not work well for Asha. Once Jorah is banished by Dany, I’m sure the show is going to follow him a bit too, so that the meet-up with Tyrion doesn’t come out of nowhere.

    The Asha/Stannis story could easily be taken by Theon.

    Keep characters that people already know and like, and have them cover the plot points that need covering. Then, if one of the excluded characters does become pivotal in the last 2 seasons, they could still introduce them. Moving characters geographically different from the book would not spoil any plot points and it has already been done (i.e. Gendry, Mellisandre).

  163. Daniellica
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Queenofthorns: George has been quoted as saying he originally intended on using only povs from book one. It’s not delusional when the creator itself thought it was a good idea at one time.

    …so?

    Things change all the time as you’re writing and conceiving of what to write next. I’ve started writing something as a screenplay that I realize halfway through will work much better as a novel. I’ve started writing something in the 1st person and gone back and changed it to 3rd person. I’ve started writing a story thinking one character was the hero when I realize it’s someone else. I’ve had ideas I intend to be one thing, but once the writing happens, become another thing entirely.

    What a writer initially thinks or conceives is a terrible thing to base your predictions of that writing upon, as nothing changes what is written like writing the thing itself, as your own example clearly demonstrates by the many POV characters not included in the first book. That doesn’t make those characters unimportant. It means GRRM’s feelings and ideas of his own story evolved from his initial intentions, which is almost guaranteed when any author is writing anything.

  164. wizardeyes
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Yeah a Strong Belwas cameo in Daznak’s Pit would be brilliant. I didn’t care about him being cut but it would be cool to see him as a cameo.

  165. Easteros bunny
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Dorne can be left out completely, seriously what is the big deal? Nothing of worth happens in that story arc.

    The iron islands could be used, the kings moot and all that, but dorne? I will eat my hat if someone explains the importance of dorne in a single sentence.

  166. Vyrion
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Neil,

    And no one knows how much books 6 and 7 expand and contract. It’s a bit presumptuous of them, albeit they apparently know the broad strokes. I just hope we don’t lose too much from what the books will eventually be. After that Arya chapter that came out from Winds of Winter, I’m really looking forward to seeing stuff like that on screen. They better not cut!

  167. Paulette
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    JP Dayne,

    What’s your source? Where is this confirmed?

  168. Ian
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Neil,

    Dude, seriously. Hit the halfway point? If they think they can fit the last 3 books in to two seasons they are REALLY fooling themselves. All the books havent even been released and the universe is still always expanding. I hope they remember where the genius of this story comes from- George Martin, not themselves.

  169. Ian
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    Easteros bunny,

    Well, you dont know how the story ends so how can you know? At the moment, a pretty compelling story is taking place with Myrcella down there.

  170. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Are we starting again with this argument, i already said that me not liking some parts of the material doesnt mean i am not a fan, if Winds is good then great that means Martin is getting back on track, if not then well its not like i cant still like the first three books , i am not ignoring the later books but that doesnt mean i have to like them .

  171. Ian
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    Seriously, people who think they have any part of this story completely figured out havent been paying attention at all.

  172. Annara Snow
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Chriss:
    queenofthorns,
    The Red Wedding really did end part 1 of the saga. The war is over, the Lannisters won. People need to accept that. We’ve moved on to the second phase with new upstarts.

    Well, apparently, the writers of the show don’t agree…
    Trailer Joffrey: I won the war!
    Trailer Jaime: The war’s not won.

    The Lannisters didn’t win any war because the war is not over. Stannis is still out there, the Greyjoys are still calling themselves kings and are about to start reaving in the Tyrell lands, the Riverlands are still in chaos with the Brotherhood killing everyone associated with the Red Wedding and Riverrun still not in Lannister hands (they’re laying a siege to it well into A Feast for Crows). The war was never just between the Lannisters and the Starks. All that the Lannisters did was manage to get their allies to kill Robb Stark at a wedding. Which didn’t help when the Lannisters themselves started imploding because of their own dysfunctionality, and with a little help from their allies.

    If the end of A Storm of Swords is the end of the first phase of the series, the Lannisters didn’t end it in much better shape than the Starks. Even if an 8-year old child from their family is still sitting on that ugly, uncomfortable chair.

  173. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Ian:
    Neil,

    Dude, seriously. Hit the halfway point? If they think they can fit the last 3 books in to two seasons they are REALLY fooling themselves. All the books havent even been released and the universe is still always expanding. I hope they remember where the genius of this story comes from- George Martin, not themselves.

    Well if George Martin was such a genius he would have known not to sell the rights when the books were not finished which puts him in this awkward situation although i dont blame him , the showrunners cant wait 20 years for him to finish the god damn books . Also when you start using the word genius you come off as a fanboy , just an advice , stop using it .

  174. Tyrionisthebest
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    Ian,

    Well how do you know how the story ends ? You are in the same boat as him so dont act all high and mighty when only George, his wife and the showrunners know the story. And if they think they can end the story in 7 or 8 seasons, guess what , they can do it, because they certainly know more than you .

  175. Chriss
    Posted April 1, 2014 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Well, apparently, the writers of the show don’t agree…
    Trailer Joffrey: I won the war!
    Trailer Jaime: The war’s not won.

    The Lannisters didn’t win any war because the war is not over. Stannis is still out there, the Greyjoys are still calling themselves kings and are about to start reaving in the Tyrell lands, the Riverlands are still in chaos with the Brotherhood killing everyone associated with the Red Wedding and Riverrun still not in Lannister hands (they’re laying a siege to it well into A Feast for Crows). The war was never just between the Lannisters and the Starks. All that the Lannisters did was manage to get their allies to kill Robb Stark at a wedding. Which didn’t help when the Lannisters themselves started imploding because of their own dysfunctionality, and with a little help from their allies.

    If the end of A Storm of Swords is the end of the first phase of the series, the Lannisters didn’t end it in much better shape than the Starks. Even if an 8-year old child from their family is still sitting on that ugly, uncomfortable chair.

    I’m talking about the original war between the Starks and the Lannisters. The Lannisters ended it with the Red Wedding for all intent and purposes. This is a demonstrable fact. The overall war is of course not over – but the first phase is. The repercussions, the next phase, the ‘feast for crows’ now begins.

    People don’t like that. They want it to still just be the original warring kings. I imagine many people, in fact I’m certain, many people would have preferred Dorne and the new Greyjoys to have never existed and for the story to wrap itself up with the original cast.

    I can only suggest those people turn to fan fiction, regardless of Martin’s stance on it. Because that’s just not the way the story went, and no amount of crying and hating of the fourth and fifth books is going to make that happen.

    I think people have also become weary. People don’t want to wait another 10 years for a conclusion so I think they just want the story to end now, for it to be wrapped up. Obviously books 4 and 5 just expanded everything, much to their chagrin I imagine.

  176. A Secret Baratheon
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 4:20 am | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    The most compelling evidence that LS is in, to me, is the whole “Jaime Lannister/the Lannisters send their regards” thing. That plays a huge part in why LS does what she does. I don’t think it’d be in if she was cut.

  177. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    You misunderstand me. I never said that I expect the show to cut off complete plotlines. I just said I wish they leave out most (if not all) of the Iron Islands/Dorne subplots, but that’s just a personal preference, because I just can’t stand most of those characters and their respective threads.

    In the end, we are in complete agreement. I know that some of these characters will have to be there, especially because of their future roles in the books, of course. But based on my understanding of D&D’s comments, I’m sure there WILL be drastic cuts, characters will be combined/rolled into one, and the whole Iron Islands/Dorne subplots will be heavily edited. And I for one, will be extremely grateful to the show for that.

  178. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Ham and Aegs:
    For the purposes of maintaining viewer loyalty and interest, I think that the Dorne and Iron Island story lines will be included but covered by characters already introduced by the end of this season.Ellaria Sand can carry on the Dorne story arc, taking the place of the Sand Snakes and maybe just introduce Doran after the death of Oberyn.

    Asha/Yara can handle the Iron Island story lines.She could be put in charge of the fleet and go to Mereen.The Victarion proposal story line could just be dropped.Does anyone really think the Dany is gonna end up marrying him?Tyrion could handle any Vic plot points in Mereen that would not work well for Asha.Once Jorah is banished by Dany, I’m sure the show is going to follow him a bit too, so that the meet-up with Tyrion doesn’t come out of nowhere.

    The Asha/Stannis story could easily be taken by Theon.

    Keep characters that people already know and like, and have them cover the plot points that need covering.Then, if one of the excluded characters does become pivotal in the last 2 seasons, they could still introduce them.Moving characters geographically different from the book would not spoil any plot points and it has already been done (i.e. Gendry, Mellisandre).

    Best comment I’ve read here by far.

  179. somuchforoldtown
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Tyrionisthebest,

    My point is that the Kevan arc is much more interesting than Bran’s and would make for better television. Bran is about as exciting as watching leaves falling from a tree, pun intended

  180. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    somuchforoldtown:
    Tyrionisthebest,

    My point is that the Kevan arc is much more interesting than Bran’s and would make for better television.Bran is about as exciting as watching leaves falling from a tree, pun intended

    I agree, all he does is travel and when he finnaly gets there he sees nothing important.

  181. KG
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Why, thanks for asking!

    I quite like A Feast for Crows. It takes us outside of the bubble of wealth and power to illustrate the terrible carnage of collateral damage being wrought upon Joh Sicspak of Sloptown.

    A Dance With Dragons had some notable bits, but it could easily have been half as long. There are points where it is painfully clear that GRRM had lost his way and was flailing around trying to get back on track. The book got rolling near the end, but the first half was appallingly slow.

    (ADWD also succeeded in turning my bored distaste for Tyrion into outright “I hope he dies soon” dislike.)

    Dorne, I have never liked that entire segment of the story. I find the characters dull and the “intrigue” rather cardboard. But GRRM seems quite invested in them, so we shall see.

    On the other hand, I find the Ironborn entertaining in their single-minded willful ignorance.

    If I were to venture into symbolism, I would say that the Dornish and Ironborn represent Patience and Impatience, respectively. The opposing forces they bring are what sets the Seven Kingdoms rocking on their foundations.

    Hand of the Kingslayer:
    KG,

    Say, Knee Gums, what is your opinion on AFFC and ADWD? And Dorne and the Iron Islands?

  182. KG
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    No I was mocking you. That you missed that makes it even more amusing for me.

    Tyrionisthebest:
    KG,

    Are we starting again with this argument, i already said that me not liking some parts of the material doesnt mean i am not a fan, if Winds is good then great that means Martin is getting back on track, if not then wellits not like i cant still like the first three books, i am not ignoring the later books but that doesnt mean i have to like them .

  183. Ham and Aegs
    Posted April 2, 2014 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    I expect that Bran will become more powerful than anticipated. The magic of the world is returning, and the Old Gods are part of that. The COF and BR will bring that in to focus for him. There’s a reason the Stark family has been around for thousands of years, with those vast crypts et al. Bran is their connection to the past . . . and I think he will help create their future. If there is a “chosen one” in GRRM’s series, Bran is it. Or there is the three-headed-chosen-one-sort-of-archetypal-hero in Jon-Arya-Bran.

  184. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 3, 2014 at 3:41 am | Permalink

    I have only myself to blame for wasting so much time reading through all these posts. Nonsense. Reminds me of “low information voters” pissing and crying about “the Elite!”. Yeah, y’all know who you are.
    The funny thing is, I started reading through just to find out if I missed something about “knee gums”

  185. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 3, 2014 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    KG,

    Patience and impatience. Dig that!

    Ham and Aegs,

    I agree that his power will only grow stronger, but I’m on a hardcore Bran goes dark kick. I think he will deatroy the wall. . Whoever says his story sucks… Well, they suck.

  186. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 3, 2014 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    Whoever said that Cersei was destroyed by the walk of shame should read the new Arya chapter. She’s BAAAaaaaack! I believe she will still hold power when true reckoning comes to KL

    Strider,

    Hand of the Kingslayer,

    Hand of the Kingslayer is badass. I have considered changing my “handle” to Goldmember, I get the impression that Cersei might enjoy accessorizing, and it may be less offensive, at first glance. I’m from Holland, isn’t that VEEERD?

  187. KG
    Posted April 3, 2014 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Once everyone found out that KG wasn’t intended to stand for “kingsguard,” I was assigned “knee gums” instead.

    I’m an agreeable sort of girl, so Knee Gums it is.

    Sister Wrister:
    I have only myself to blame for wasting so much time reading through all these posts.Nonsense.Reminds me of “low information voters” pissing and crying about “the Elite!”.Yeah, y’all know who you are.
    The funny thing is, I started reading through just to find out if I missed something about “knee gums”


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