Unsullied Recap, Game of Thrones Episode 402 – The Lion and The Rose
By Oz of Thrones on in Recap.

Joff Pie

 

Spoiler note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask all the series veterans to refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand or afterwards, so please be respectful of your fellow fans. Thank you!

Oz of Thrones:  The inevitable has occurred.  And as obvious as it was that Joff had it coming, it still doesn’t take away from the shock that the King is dead and someone poisoned him.

To add shock to the event itself is that it occurred in the second episode of the season.  This epic series never ceases to amaze me in that we, the viewers, were just treated to what any other show would consider season finale material.

The King is gone.  Tyrion’s future looks brutal.  A curtain call is already in order.  And the damn season just got started…

 

Before we get deep into the demise of King Crossbow, let’s recap and review what I thought was an overall outstanding episode.

Ramsay and Tansy:  We open up with the return of Ramsay with Reek and one of his girlfriends from Season 3 (Myranda) hunting down a poor girl named Tansy.  I assume this scene was simply to remind and reinforce to viewers how sick and sadistic Ramsay Snow is (just in case we had forgotten).  If you are into seeking positives, at least Theon has finally been freed from the big “X”.

Later, we get the Dreadfort and the season premiere of Roose. The long awaited meeting of he and his bastard son went about as expected, but was tense as hell nonetheless.  As an added bonus, Locke is present and we get to see Fat Walda!  Apparently, Locke and Ramsay are tight and share many commonalities (primarily, the joys of removing body parts of varying people of importance).

I think the most interesting aspect of their meeting was the importance of acceptance that Ramsay desires from his father.  Roose gives him another shot at proving himself a “Bolton” by giving him the task of securing Moat Cailin.  In the process of showing dear old dad how well he had trained his new pet, Ramsay has Reek admit to Roose that Bran and Rickon are still alive.  In response, Roose sends Locke to the Wall to find Jon Snow, which is intriguing to say the least.  While I am concerned about the remaining Stark boys, I am glad to see that Locke will be around a while.  All hail Noah Taylor.

Good to finally see Jaime and Tyrion getting some screen time together (especially since future scenes between the two may not be so pleasant due to upcoming events).  Tyrion sets up Jaime with Bronn for sword training with his left hand, which was somewhat a relief after seeing the two going at it in the previews and believing they may have been trying to kill each other.

The Spider makes his debut of the season and warns Tyrion that his affairs with Shae are known by Cersei and most likely, Tywin.  This leads to a dramatic scene between Shae and Tyrion and the subsequent slap to Bronn.  I’m not sure why Tyrion couldn’t just tell her that they had been discovered and she was likely going to be hanged if she stayed, but we are lead to believe that she escapes KL unharmed although I am not convinced.

The Lord of Light was apparently in need of a few more sacrifices including the brother of Selyse.  The Stannis scowl has returned along with disapproving Davos and Red Velvet meeting with Shireen.  Out of the entire episode, these scenes were the only ones that I failed to see the point in other than the continuing need for sacrifices of infidels by the Lord of Light.

Oh, and Stannis doesn’t like fish.  But grilled seagull is tasty.

Bran is awoken by the first “Hodor” of the season after warging in Summer for hours.  I like the fact that they had Jojen and Meera explain the importance of not warging too long and the dangers of losing reality by doing so.  Bran then finds a Weirwood Tree and sees a series of visions and a voice that says, “Look for me beneath the tree.  North.”  Bran then states that he knows where they have to go.

And I still don’t know.        

Breaking Down the Murder

Keep in mind that this is not and is not meant to be a full analysis of the events or the motives that led to the poisoning of Joffrey.  Myself and many other Unsullieds will surely mull it over in the days and weeks to come.  This is merely a recap and my initial thoughts.  However, there were a few occurrences that caught my attention.

Please keep in mind that we are Unsullied and while we may be WAY off course, myself and the army are merely going by what we see depicted on the show.  PLEASE do not spoil or mention anything book related in this post.  I have likely missed many clues.  However, I did discuss the events with other Unsullieds last night and the sentiment from all of them is this:

Cersei is most likely responsible.

I preface this portion with the fact that I am not completely sold that it was the mother of madness.  However, there are a lot of signs that point to Drunk Cersei.  Individually, they may not amount to much.  But the flags are definitely there.

The preview showed a clip of her calling Margaery the little bitch from Highgarden.  Cersei is obviously jealous that she would no longer be the Queen or the Queen regent.

Throughout the celebration, Cersei seems on edge and is confrontational with almost everyone.

She has no intention of marrying Loras and the death of her son potentially changes many things that had been put into play by Tywin.

Cersei takes issue with Pycelle and runs him off to the kitchen to make sure the leftovers are given to the dogs.  Why did she do that?  At the end of S2, Pycelle gives Cersei a potion that she plans on overdosing to kill her and Tommen if Stannis had taken the city.  Did she use this on Joffrey and got rid of Pycelle just so he would not be there to witness the symptoms?

Of course, the obvious is that the carafe Tyrion used to fill Joffrey’s cup was sitting in front of Cersei.

And I’m sure there are others.  A rewatch is certainly in order.

But there are certainly other possibilities.  Olenna gives Tyrion a glance before handing the cup to Joffrey and is seen in the preview for next week commenting that Marg is definitely better off.  The Tyrells?

Oberyn is in attendance and has a debt to settle that he makes clear to Tywin and Cersei.

Sansa obviously had multiple reasons to want Joff dead.  She picks up the goblet from the ground, which the camera makes a point to show the viewers.  Could she have slipped something in the empty cup?

Tywin himself had issues with his grandson that were depicted only a couple of episodes ago at the end of S3.

And I guess the man that will stand accused of the crime did have a motive of his own, although I have no reason to suspect that he is indeed guilty.

But regardless, it all makes sense.  Now we know why Tywin is shown in an earlier preview sitting on the throne and why Tyrion is in manacles.  The whole lot is f***ed up.

Episode 401 Personal Awards

Favorite Scene:  Nothing original about the choice, but I will never forget Joff’s face at the end of the episode as he lay dying.       
Favorite Quote #1:  “A toast, to the proud Lannister children.  The dwarf, the cripple, and the mother of madness.” -Tyrion

Final Thoughts:  This episode in my opinion was one of the best in the series.  There were multiple times even before the fatal end that were tense and had Ozzette and I on edge afraid something catastrophic was about to occur.  The dialogue seemed a little rushed at times and there was a large amount of information conveyed. But this episode will live historically in television lore if for no other reason than King Jackass Crossbow met a befitting early end to his life, although it should be remembered for so much more.

Share your thoughts, speculation, questions, etc.  There is much to discuss.

But PLEASE, no Sullied book reader hints here.  A man thanks you in advance.

A man will be back on Friday or Saturday for Looking Forward Episode 403.  For those of you that tweet, I am @ozofthrones.  Until then, have a great week, enjoy more coverage and content on WiC, and whatever you do, do NOT attend any weddings in Westeros under any circumstances.

May there always be peace in your realm. –Oz

“Unbowed.  Unbent.  Unsullied.”

PLEASE BE MINDFUL OF THE UNSULLIED… Do not post spoilers in this comment thread!


176 Comments

  1. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Hodor! (Hodor means no spoilers BTW)

  2. Ranok
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Hodor²

  3. Liz Cook Belcher
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    The marvelous and talented Jack Gleason will be sorely missed! He actually made me feel, well, almost sorry for Joffrey.

  4. Rafael
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Thank you Oz! Pleasure to read.

  5. Roger König
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Interesting as always. Thank you Ser Oz! :)

  6. Beastling
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    As a Sullied, your recaps are one of my post-Thrones highlights, to make the week-long wait all the faster.

    I think it’s a testament to D&D that show-watcher theories are so close to book-reader theories. I remember when I read about The Purple Wedding, I suspected everyone.

  7. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Rafael,

    The pleasure is mine Ser.

  8. A flayed man none
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    The exchange between Oberyn, Ellaria, Tywin, and Cersei was one of the sharpest in the series so far, rivaling the one between Olenna and Tywin where they discuss Ser Loras wedding Cersei.

    If Joffrey hadn’t died, I imagine this would have stood out more.

  9. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    You know, I suspected the Fool – he was rushing to leave, and he has nothing to lose, he gave sansa the necklace and asked her to carry on his family treasure….. then I suspected Sansa after watching it again, she showed no emotion whatsoever, and I think Joffrey`s comment in the beginning of the episode about her father pushed her over the edge.
    But I never thought cersei would do it. You do make some good points Oz….. and with you bringing that to my attention, I can see it being a big possibility. She was acting strange.
    I want to know NOW I WANT TO KNOW! LOL

    What a crazy amazing episode.

    Also, now you have twitter OzÉ I just followed you.

  10. Ranok
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    One question left:

    What tastes pigeon pie like?

    Edit:
    I loved the Olenna/Tywin/Lord Oaf of Highgarden scene

  11. Joe
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    it absolutly blows my mind that people keep thinking its Cersei.. do you people even watch the show???!!!!

  12. arden
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    You know what crazy, being sullied I would never have thought the unsullied would think that the preview scene between Bronn and Jaime scene would be them two fighting to the death. I guess that what makes Unsullied so amazing, you forget what it’s like to see the show for the first time.

  13. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    gosensgo,

    I played around with it for a couple of months and just now bit the bullet and linked it with WiC. Thanks for the follow! Awesome episode. One of my favorites thus far.

  14. Lady
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Oz,

    Are you suggesting Cersei did in her son on purpose…or that she wanted Marg to drink the poison but the plan backfired?

    There are lots of potential poisoners…but the Fool knowing what was happening right away has to make him at least somewhat involved.

  15. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Joe,

    Ya we do watch the show… its called speculation based on what we have seen on the show
    don’t spoil anything

  16. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Roger König,

    Quite welcome, Ser Roger of House König!

    Beastling,

    So do I, so I hope that means they are doing a good job. The popular vote last night was Cersei but I’m not buying it, yet.

  17. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Lady,

    Very true. And maybe that is the viewer underestimating the true depth of foolishness (or lack of) in Dontos. There’s definitely more to it. Who shot JR?

  18. WinterRy71
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    I’m supprised nobody else suspects the Tommen imposter as the poisoner.

    He stole tommens identity and now will presumably be king.

    Hodor

  19. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    I really think it was Sansa and the Fool… that was my thought the moment I saw it happened.

    by the way cersei did throw out the poison when her father walked in after the battle.

  20. Zack
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Jack Gleeson will be missed. Such praises will sing forth for him when the Curtain Call thread is posted.

    I’m glad you Unsullied got through this episode proper, no spoilers. So happy! :)

  21. Stark Raving Mad
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    arden:
    You know what crazy, being sullied I would never have thought the unsullied would think that the preview scene between Bronn and Jaime scene would be them two fighting to the death. I guess that what makes Unsullied so amazing, you forget what it’s like to see the show for the first time.

    And just goes to show why the most innocuous comment could spoil someone. (I hadn’t considered how it looked either.)

    Thank you, Oz (and all the unsullied). You allow me to relive how I felt the first time reading the books.

  22. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    gosensgo,

    And I remembered that. But she seemed frantic getting Pycelle out of there. Then again, it could have just been the smell of dead cats driving her nuts.

  23. varysthespider
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    I don’t think sending Pycelle away would do anything to stop him from finding out. After all, somebody is bound to tell him about the symptoms afterwards, so he can draw his conclusions. The only point in sending him away would be in order to deny him the possibility of giving Joffrey an antidote. But would he happen to have one on him? Of course, she might have sent somebody after him to kill him.

  24. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    I agree….
    cant wait to find out

  25. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    She was clearly just looking for someone to push around. Result: the greatest cock-block in the 12,000-year history of Westeros.

    I was really beginning to worry for a moment that Pycelle was going to have… {Gulp} Sex… with a woman {Shudder} ;)

  26. varysthespider
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    and why is there no mention of Lysa?

  27. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Cersei? I don’t see it.

    And, for meta reasons Sansa, Tyrion and Jaime are also no suspects.

    Let met explain:
    The show has 2 classes of characters: transparent ones and opaque ones. The first type does never do anything of importance without the show covering it. The second type, however, usually never does anything important in a scene that is shown on screen except for the big reveal kind of scene.

    Transparent characters: Pretty much all Starks, and most characters that are displayed as “good” (that includes contemporary Tyrion and Jaime, for instance).

    Opaque characters: Littlefinger, Varys, the Reed “siblings”, Lord Bolton, maybe Cersei, and most probably the Tyrells.

    As we haven’t been shown the preparation of the murder of Joffrey, only opaque characters can be suspects.

  28. Daniellica
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    The Unsullied I watch with has his money on Varys and/or Sansa.

    On another note, I’d like to remark that I absolutely love the way they have structured the first two episodes, where we get all of action from each thread before moving onto the next. It allows us to really sit with the characters and invest more deeply in the action, and I hope the pattern will continue.

  29. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    varysthespider,

    My guilty pleasure escapes screen time again. There will be blood. #breastfeedingboysunite

  30. Dr Gonzo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Just want to give a big shout out to my man, Grand Maester Pycelle, still chatting up the ladies into his 80th or 90th or 100th nameday.

    Also on the topic of who poisoned Joff, Varys has used poison wine before, in Season 1 when he arranged for the wine to be sold to Dany by the wine merchent. Pycelle also likely used poison to kill Jon Arryn when he was hand of the King.

  31. BlackTalon
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I am surprised – but pleased – that so many people like the episode, I thought it was much weaker than the season premiere.

    I chuckled at the hacked-apart pigeon in the pie, when I read the scene in the book that was exactly what I wondered, how they could hack the pie apart with a sword without hitting some of the birds inside.

  32. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    gosensgo:
    Oz of Thrones,

    I really think it was Sansa and the Fool… that was my thought the moment I saw it happened.

    by the way cersei did throw out the poison when her father walked in after the battle.

    Yes, the fool definitely attended the Regicide briefing. There is almost no other explanation for his fast and clear-headed action. Also, because he seems to want to take Sansa away of all people, that eliminates any “single perpetrator” theory (unless he has a very unhealthy crush on Sansa …).

    But Sansa? Not only would the show break their rules of transparent characters, there is NOT THE SLIGHTEST hint to something like that. Sansa and the fool together? Never! Just look at how he approaches Sansa after Joffrey dies. These two are not the conspirators you are looking for.

  33. Lyanna Targaryen
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Love hearing everyone’s theories. Oz, as ever, great post.

    It was a masterful episode. Loras’ burn to Jaime about Jaime not getting to marry Cersei either? Someone get the aloe.

    Between her dialogue with Ellaria Sand and her dialogue with Brienne, Cersei has cemented herself in my mind as the Regina George of Westeros as well as the Mother of Madness. So freaking catty. Meow.

    I did find that, although I was damn near gleeful that Joffrey was getting what was coming to him, it was a pretty damn gruesome death. The ocular hemorrhaging, the bloody mucus running out of…. everywhere. Oy vey. Being stabbed is one thing. That was a more visually disturbing death than most on the show that I can think of right now.

  34. The North Remembers
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    If Cersei poisoned the carafe, she would have put many others at risk for poisoning as well, including her own father. Also, she dropped the assence of nightshade given to her by Pycelle after Tywin and Loras drove Stannis back from the city, and the bottle shattered on the floor. Not to say she didn’t get more, of course – or get some during that “other matter” with Qyburn…

  35. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Lyanna Targaryen,

    Agreed, that and Talisa`s massacre.

  36. Tynus
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    I’m very into the whole murder mystery thing they’ve got going on now, so let me hash out a couple of the suspects I’ve been thinking about:

    I am VERY convinced that Olenna was the person who poisoned the cup (unless we find that, in a cruel twist of fate, there was no poison and Joff just choked). The Tyrells have nothing to lose by offing Joffrey. If the Tyrells turn against the Lannisters, it could mean serious trouble. Without the Tyrell’s support, Stannis might be sitting on the Iron Throne. Also, wouldn’t it just be too funny for her quip “what kind of monster kills someone at a wedding?”

    On the other hand, we know next to nothing about Oberyn other than him wanting to see the Lannisters dead. It could be him as he certainly has an obvious motive. I don’t know if it is confirmed that the source of the supposed poison is the wine or not. He may have tainted the pigeon pie. That Viper nickname has to come from somewhere, right (might be grasping at straws here)? The only thing making me less confident about his guilt is that it just seems too darn convenient for it to be him. We met the man with the perfect motive literally an episode ago.

    I guess it could’ve been an inside job. Tywin certainly didn’t look surprised, if I recall correctly, and he’s certainly not below killing someone at a wedding. But the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. Tywin might be a schemer, but he’s a family man through and through. Even if Joff’s a sociopath, his biggest disgrace in his eyes seems to be Tyrion based on what we’ve seen, and he won’t even kill him. I won’t make any decisive calls one way or the other, but Tywin doesn’t seem super likely to me.

    Any way I look at it, the Tyrells and the Martells are in the safest positions to kill the King. If they draw suspicion, the Tyrells currently have the largest army in the Kingdoms (as far as we know) and the Martells have Cersei’s daughter as a hostage. They, along with the Vale, have sustained the least amount of repercussions from the war.

    If there are any gaps in my logic, someone fill me in! I’ve been thinking about this thing all night, so I might be a bit frazzled. I’m so excited to see the fallout from this and what it means for Tyrion!

  37. TheBerylfly
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    am i the only one who cheered and clapped when Loras burned Jaime so hard even two hands would not have held enough ice?
    Dear Oz, as usual, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Best treat on WiC?

  38. lordapofis
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    I am Sullied and I enjoy reading you. Many thanks for your recaps.

  39. Amanda M
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    After the drama that occurred last time I commented on one of your posts, I’m kind if scared haha.

    But anyway, I was looking forward to hearing your reaction to this episode, and I enjoyed it! Interesting theories about who did it too — Unsullied opinions and theories are always interesting, since SEEING something is very different from READING something, so there’s always some interesting and unique points of view around here!

    What were your thoughts on Ser Dontos appearing out of the blue to take Sansa away? I’m interested to hear what the unsullied make of it. :)

  40. Tynus
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    I guess in the wake of my other post, Dontos is very suspect as well. Joff tried to kill him with wine. Wouldn’t it be poetic for him to try and return the favor?

    It might be interesting to see them going forward. I hadn’t really thought he might be important back in season 2. It might be an interesting pair (as long as Dontos doesn’t go all creepo on us). Maybe we’ll learn what drove him to being a drunkard?

  41. Kat
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    gosensgo,

    Plus don’t forget the poison she had was suppose to be painless. His death did NOT look painless in the least (cue maniacal laughter).

  42. Shimazu
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Just an a correction, should be titled 402 not 401.
    These are my favorite posts btw. The Unsullied are fun to watch and make for the best show watching partners.

  43. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Whodunnit?

    [Sansa]
    + Mount Everest of reasons to kill Joffrey
    + access to the cup
    + confident to one of the conspirators (the fool)
    - no access to poison
    - cup was empty
    - no quick thinker
    - she never does stuff off-screen
    - no hints what-so-ever she planned to prepare anything
    - she wasn’t as nervous as she would have been

    [Cersei]
    + send away Pycelle
    + struggles with Joffrey
    + likes to poison her children
    + was very quick to frame Tyrion for it
    + access to poison: Pycelle, Kiborn, probably others
    + access to the cup
    - but: really?
    - mass suicide in the prospect of rape and annihilation cmp. to killing your own son and angle on power just because?
    - Cersei sucks at acting, she couldn’t have pulled off that show
    - there would have been another conflict scene between Cersei and Joffrey on the show

    [Tyrion]
    + Joffrey
    + greater good
    + access to the cup
    + access to poison (through his Spider connection)
    - well, no he did not, and we all know it
    - he tried to leave
    - he didn’t ask for being a cup-bearer
    - he was genuinely stunned by what happened
    - he is a transparent character now and cannot go to the toilet without the show covering him

    [Fool]
    + he KNOWS things were going to go wrong at the feast
    + nobody notices a fool -> ninja access to almost anything
    + he is not one of the very few people who wouldn’t want to kill Joffrey
    - he didn’t care for Joffrey dying, but for getting Sansa out of there (“I killed the King! I killed the … oh look, a pretty girl …”)
    - maybe I missed the fool, but shouldn’t he have been around the table when the cup was going to be filled?

  44. Chris
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    I seem to remember that Joffrey’s death -choking and bleeding both- was very similar to the poisoning death of the maester who was trying to poison Melissandre back at the beginning of… was it Season 2? Don’t know if that will be relevant but interesting.
    It was fun trying to recall who came close to the wine or Joffrey’s cup. Pretty fishy that Sansa had a couple of seconds under the table and out of sight… hmmm…

  45. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Lyanna Targaryen,

    Thank you Lyanna!

    I thought it was gruesome as hell. I don’t think I will ever get that image of Joff at the very end out of my mind. It was extremely well done and Graves, D&D, GRRM should be proud of how it was pulled off on screen.

  46. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    The God of Tits & Wine killed Joff, I’m convinced

  47. Phat Walda
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    I doubt that Cersei would poison her own son. She clearly loves him. Even if she decided he needed to die, she wouldn’t have done it so painfully. I got the sense that the poison Pycelle gave her would have just sedated them to death.

    Though it does seem strange that she sent away the closest thing to a doctor there.

  48. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    First off, why are so many people thinking the wine was poisoned? Joffrey was the only one there who had a bite of the cake. The other thing that struck me about the cake was the fact that it contained both live and dead doves. One explanation is that those doves were killed by Joffrey’s sword, but another explanation is that they ate some cake. What was the reason for using a camera shot to focus on the dead birds inside the cake?

    Next, Cersei is my prime suspect and her motives are many. 1) She is power crazy and is capable of doing anything for power. 2) She had her husband Robert Baratheon killed so that her son Joffrey would ascend to the throne. 3) She believed having Joffrey on the throne would directly translate into her holding the power through her control of Joffrey. 4) She came to the realization that she had no control over Joffrey and thus lacked that power over the throne that she thought would have. 5) Cersei made it pretty clear in the 1st episode of this season that Jaime, the father of Joffrey, had fallen from grace in her eyes, she now viewed him as useless, she was angry with him and had little to no interest in him, romantically or otherwise. 6) To make matters worse, Cersei no longer loves nor trusts Jaime and strongly believes there are feelings between him and Brienne which only tends to fuel her anger, distrust and jealousy. 7) Joffrey was a constant and risk-laden reminder of the product of her and Jaime’s illicit relationship and Cersei certainly seems hateful and unscrupulous enough to hurt Jaime, Joffrey’s real father, in such a brutal way. 8) The fact that she dismissed Pycelle right before it happened suggests that the only person who might have been able to do something about the poisoning was removed from the scene.

    I’m curious to hear why others think Cersei ought to be ruled out?

  49. Tynus
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    DoubleD,

    I feel like they’ve been spending way too much time trying to show us how much she loves her children forr her to up and murder her son. Sure, she lusts for power, but would that really make her kill her son? Also, what about her other children, specifically Tommen? If Jaime’s a factor, wouldn’t he be in danger as well? It just seems like too big a risk for her to try to kill Joff. If she’s found out, she’ll lose much more than the regency.

  50. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    Do not fear Amanda, for as long as there are no mentions of books or hints from, we are good.

    The Dontos deal is strange. Obviously, he has his on motives in the way Joff had treated him. He had clearance to be present at the wedding since he was Joff’s fool. And he cares for Sansa. But the fact that he acted so quickly is suspect. It’s ballsy to assassinate a King. If Dontos felt like he had nothing to lose, I guess it’s possible but still unlikely that he was the culprit.

    But who knows (other than the Sullied). It was the professor in the library with the candlestick.

  51. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    You know, for all the hatefulness of Joffrey and nastiness of Cersei, in this episode as well as earlier, at the end… all I could see was a young boy dying in the arms of his mother, his eyes begging her to help him, and her grief at losing her son. Yeah, I may even have got a little misty-eyed.

    Over Joffrey. Well done, GoT.

  52. Bingo's Banjo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    DoubleD,

    I am not sure the slice of pie he had came from the actual pie that contained the birds, because 1) that would be gross — birds are known to shit quite a bunch, 2) we don’t see anyone carving the pie — he strikes it to reveal the pigeons and then, almost instantly, a servant hands him a plate, IIRC. The big pie is for show, not for chow.

  53. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    DoubleD:
    First off, why are so many people thinking the wine was poisoned? Joffrey was the only one there who had a bite of the cake.

    The scene is constructed to leave the careful viewer with the impression that Joffrey’s discomfort precedes him drinking the wine, and that it is more likely to have been the pie that was poisoned.

  54. Bingo's Banjo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    He first coughs after drinking though. First he says the pie is dry, true but then Tyrion hands him the cup and he says something along the lines of “washes it off nicely”, then starts coughing.

  55. Red Viper 9
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Oz,

    Once again, a great recap! I know I’ve mentioned this a number of times before, but your Unsullied previews/recaps have become one of this Sullied viewers’ favorite aspects of this site.

    Oz, you mentioned that many of the Unsullied you spoke to after the episode think Cersei is the perpetrator. If you don’t mind my asking: do you share that belief? Or are you waiting for more evidence before declaring who your prime suspect is? (I would actually love to read a post by you breaking down the suspect list and the odds that they’re the guilty party).

    Keep up the great work, Oz…looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on this Westerosi murder mystery in the days and weeks to come.

    Edit: And although I’m not a fan of Lysa, I am hoping she appears sooner rather than later so that you can scratch your itch.

  56. Exodus
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Obviously the Tyrells did it. Margaery Tyrell was repulsed by Joffrey and her family feared for her well-being. Also, I suppose that Joffrey’s younger brother Tommen is next-in-line to become king of Westeros. From all accounts, he seems like a genuinely nice kid, bit impressionable though.

    I’m sure Margaery would be pleased to marry him, seeing that the Tyrell men are usually oafs, stupid and/or impressionable as well.

    Also, the former actor of Tommen was less handsome and younger than the new one, which is why I believe D&D hired the new kid. If newTommen marries Marg, it won’t seem like some little kid is marrying a hot chick in her mid 20′s.

    Yup, I’m putting my money on the Tyrells.

  57. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Tynus,

    Tommen seems much easier to control than Joffrey. Cersei is power-hungry, I think she only pretends to love them so that she can manipulate them or at the very least that her love is conditional upon their unswerving obedience to mommy. With the loss of his right hand, I say Cersei views Jaime as both useless and of no threat to her. She also knows that he is as compromised as she is in the sense that he would never admit to being the father of her children. I personally see Jaime now as a character who wants to redeem himself in his own eyes and he very much wishes to leave a meaningful and respected legacy in the history book of noble families.

    The relationship between Cersei and Jaime is toxically passionate, fueled by lust, jealously, power, distrust, and a touch of madness. It’s difficult to believe they live happily ever after. My best guess is that one will kill the other before it’s all said and done.

  58. woooo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    It was jaime, he just can’t cut the kinglsaying habit

  59. Blind Beth
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    I watched Mad Men right after GoT, so now I keep thinking of f’ed up ads for GoT products…

    Cercei: I don’t always poison my children, but when I do, I use Essence of Nightshade(TM)–a name you trust.

    Joffrey: I don’t always hack priceless books to pieces, but when I do, I use Valyrian Steel(TM). Valyrian Steel(TM): When fire and blood just won’t cut it!

  60. Mister Stonheart
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Cersei is vile but I never got the impression she would kill her own children. I think she really does love them all and would fight tooth or nail over them. Tywin may be calculating but he is not in favor of creating chaos. I don’t think flesh and blood killed Joffrey.

    Is there any chance the poisoned chalice was meant for someone else? Tyrion? Margery?

  61. EverydayI'mHodoring
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Dying deer “Hodor” FTW

  62. Tynus
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    DoubleD,

    I don’t know where you’re extrapolating these sociopathic tendencies for Cersei from. She might be power hungrey, but that doesn’t make her devoid of all ability to care a speck for her own children. Tommen is easier to control. It is known. However, that doesn’t mean she plans on using every member of her family as tools. If that were the case, why hasn’t she tried to kill Tywin? With him dead, she would have ultimate control. If I recall, she even claims to be his true heir in season 3 or something. She clearly has enough respect for him to not murder him.

    Cersei hasn’t proven that she’s emotionally detached enough to kill any of her children. No normal mother would ever do that, and she’s not nearly as bad as Joff. She had a whole scene previously acknowledging how awful he is, but the important thing is, no matter how awful he may have become, Joffrey is still her son. She killed Robert because she never really loved him. She wants to kill Tyrion because she an extremely easy target for her to channel her hatred toward. She can’t kill Joffrey because she’s honestly not capable of it.

  63. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stonheart,

    Very possible…

  64. EverydayI'mHodoring
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Question from a non-book person: If Cersei got all that she wanted, would she be a benevolent ruler? In other words, is she only being a Queen Bitch because she’s not getting what she wants?

  65. Mewcat
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    Oz, loved our recap, and also your looking forward from Saturday. So, what was your initial reaction when you realized Joffrey was in serious trouble, that he couldn’t breathe and that he may be dying? Did your jaw drop? Did you stand up and yell? What about Ozette? And, I’m interested in what other unsullied’s reactions were, if anyone cares to share. Great episode..great when I read it & just as great when I viewed it.

  66. Turncloak
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    I love how these are the same exact reactions people had when reading the book :). The whole murder mystery is awesome and I’m glad they stayed faithful to the material. My first guess when reading the scene is that Joffrey just choked on his own pigeon pie. I’m glad to see that Oz and other Unsullied are way smarter than me as they suspect a poisoning which is more likely the case.

  67. jayceedee
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Excellent episode…very satisfying to say the least. I think “I” probably killed Joff, I wanted it to happen so badly.

    So “who done it”? Is the question that will be asked for a long time I think. I doubt we will have the answer anytime soon. My thoughts and they run different to most of the others are as follows:

    We seem to have forgotten the two most horrid people there are in Westeros. Littefinger and Varys. While neither of them were there, their influence could be felt from far away. 1. Littlefinger. It appears he has sailed off, or has he? He wants Sansa and hates Joff for his treatment of her and he also wants to seriously piss off Cersei. I believe he could have both of those with the murder of Joff. Then there is Varys – the spider, maybe poisonous spider? He swears that every single motive he has is “for the kingdom”. Murdering Joff was (or I think will be, don’t you?) certainly a move that was best for the kingdom.

    Both of them are incredibly diabolical and have been weaned on the Red Keep. They know who has killed who, how they have been killed and who wants to kill who. I think they have access to The Keep that others wouldn’t know of and have hired “birds” to do their dirty work for them.

    Those are my two choices….running in a hard third is the Queen of Thorns.

    I am starting to feel more sorry for Jamie by the episode. Geez, when is the guy gonna get a break? Getting a physical smack down by Bronn and a verbal one from Ser Loras. Oh snap!!

    Thanks Oz. Great recap as usual.

  68. yoeur
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Wow, I never even considered Cersei might have done it. I don’t think Tywin did it because if he allowed Tyrion to live all these years for the sake of the family name, why risk the family name with Joffrey. I don’t think the Tyrells are involved because killing Joffrey means Marg is no longer Queen. Power moves to the next blood relative which would be Tommen, not to the widow unless she is guardian of the heir to the throne.

  69. Turncloak
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    It’s a shame how people are disrespectful to the non book readers. I read the Andy Greenwald review and the comment with the most likes basically spoiled the identity of the culprit. I’m so looking forward to seeing the show pass the books so we can have a role reversal

  70. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    I’m so happy that the show successfully pulled off a whodunit. It’s so much fun watching the unsullied analyze things.

    Just wanted to warn everyone that the comment sections on the Io9/Gawker/Jezebel purple wedding posts are full of spoilers. I recommend that unsullieds stick to places like this that are specifically for you.

  71. Nerd
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    No way in seven hells was it Cercei! Are you kidding me?! I haven’t read the books but I just know it wasn’t her. They didn’t set that up at all. If it was Cercei there would have been a scene with her and Joff getting into a fight or something during episode 401.

    Obviously the Fool was in on it but it’s unlikely he was the mastermind. Im guessing he was working for someone like Varys or the Queen of Thorns.

  72. DrunkenJester
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Seriously though, where the hell is the reviewer roundup? I really enjoyed those, it saved me a good amount of time since I didn’t have to search for them myself…

  73. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    The reviewer over at Time compared it to “Who Shot JR?”, and though I’ve never seen an episode of Dallas before, it’s so ingrained into pop culture that I can see where it’s coming from. Both Joffrey & JR spend their time basically pissing off everyone, so when the former dies and the latter is shot but survives, there are loads of potential suspects. The biggest difference though is the resolution to this particular mystery won’t have a long gap between seasons (though it might’ve done if they could get 12 episodes instead of 10).

  74. FictionIsntReal
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Valyrian Plastic:
    Chris,

    Funny you should mention that, because Maester Cressen did indeed try to poison Melisandre using the same type of poison, known as “The Strangler”, which has no known cure. It constricts the windpipe until the victim dies, but it was never mentioned that it induces nosebleeds. I even think that particula
    The one hole I’d pick in the poisoning though, is couldn’t just be passed off as choking (as was the intention). They should’ve thought it through and used the Tears of Lys, which the poison used to kill Jon Arryn way, way, waaayyyyy back in season 1. It’s clear, odorless, virtually untraceable and it would’ve caused Joffrey to die later on in bed with stomach pain. Much less likely to draw suspicion than a poison that drains the colour out of the face and causes eyes to go bloodshot. I know, much less spectacular, but it would’ve at least made more sense don’tcha think?

    If they wanted to ensure the marriage was demonstrably not consummated, a slow acting poison might be insufficient.

  75. laruna
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who was sad that Arya didn’t get the chance to off Joffrey?

  76. Alan Lovejoy
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I want to second that advice. The web is dark and full of spoilers.

  77. Mike
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Lloga:

    Opaque characters: Littlefinger, Varys, the Reed “siblings”, Lord Bolton, maybe Cersei, and most probably the Tyrells.

    I’m not disagreeing with your overall point. But I am curious what evidence you have to suggest the Reeds are not actually siblings.

  78. Meraxes
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2bH19KTBZk

    Reactions from Unsullied lol

  79. eneile
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Lloga,

    I’ve read the book and it’s fun to see how you try -methodically- to figure this one out solely based on the show.
    And, the “transparent” and “opaque” character thing is so true! I’ll think about it when watching the show from now on.

  80. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Okay, after a rewatch:

    1. Sansa grabs the empty cup from the ground and hands it to Tyrion. It only takes a second for her, not enough time to apply some conveniently invisible poison on the cup.

    2. Tyrion holds the cup, Joffrey standing above him. If something visible is in the cup, he’d see it.

    3. Joffrey gives the cup back to Tyrion for him to fill it.

    4. Tyrion fills it from the decanter on the table. He doesn’t put anything into the cup.

    5. Joffrey DRINKS from the cup, Marge takes it and Joffrey and goes over to the cake. Marge puts the cup down on the table behind her, on the “Tyrell” side of the table.

    6. After attacking the cake, he gets handed an obviously prepared plate of cake.

    7. Marge feeds him cake.

    8. Tyrion gets the cup back from in front of Olena and gives it to Joffrey. He doesn’t put anything into the cup.

    9. Joffrey drinks from the cup. 5 seconds later he starts dying.

  81. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    Sorry, that’s a very old spitball theory from a different time, a different board …

  82. Soopa Doop
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Really upset that South Park spoiled it for me. Although I’m glad it happened soon so I can go back to knowing nothing again. My enjoyment would’ve been affected watching Joffrey’s scenes throughout the season knowing he was going to die.
    Even though I knew the outcome, I was still surprised by how tense the confrontation between Joffrey and Tyrion was and how everything played out. Really moving stuff with Tywin’s, Margaery’s, and Cersei’s reactions being shown before slowly panning down and revealing how bad Joffrey’s condition was.
    Season 1 did cover Jon Arryn’s cause of death and Pycelle mentioned it may have been Varys, but poison is usually a woman’s weapon. If the target was Joffrey, I’m ruling out the Lannisters because everyone in the family has been raised by Tywin to uphold the family name and protect each other no matter what.
    To me, what makes most sense would be Lady Olenna. Granddaughter is Queen, Mad King on the rise is no longer a threat, so her family will have an edge. But this is Game of Thrones, so anything can happen. So happy Sansa is leaving that place. Tyrion won’t need to worry about her or Shae while he’s dealing with his sister and Joffrey’s accusation that he was responsible.

  83. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Lloga,

    seriously?? I missed the FIRST drink before the pie. Are you sure?
    ill have to do a rewatch for the THIRD TIME

  84. Seriano
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Even if being technically non-spoilery, I think there are too many people mentioning things from the books for “clarification” purposes (like describing names and known effects for some poisons) and that is not allowed here, is it?

    The mods should pay some extra attention to this.

  85. Anzah
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    You guys wait til the next episode.
    Jaime Lestrade Lannister calls in Ser Holmes of the Reach who arrives with Maester Watson in tow. Oberyn and Elia make Maester Watson uncomfortable. Ser Holmes insults everyone without realizing it. Loras gets jealous of all the attention.

    *Sherlock theme plays in Kings Landing*

    Man, I can honestly picture this.

  86. Fourth Of His Name
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    So glad that the Unsullied finally were able to experience the Purple Wedding!

  87. Lloga
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    gosensgo:
    Lloga,

    seriously?? I missed the FIRST drink before the pie. Are you sure?
    ill have to do a rewatch for the THIRD TIME

    Yes he does, during the “look the pie” distraction, Joffrey stops staring down Tyrion, takes the cup, drinks, gives it to Marge. Between then and the second sip, the cup stands on the Tyrell’s table. IF the poison was in the cup, and it is not a delayed poison, the poison was applied after Marge put it down. Cue: the Tyrell family.

    Cersei wasn’t near the cup, Sansa not even remotely, only Tyrion, and the camera was on him all the time while he touches the cup.

  88. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Lloga,

    or was it the cake

    UGH the suspense

  89. TOIVA
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    First off, I’m pretty pissed. I was so looking forward to clashes between Joffrey and Tywin/Cersei or his marriage with Margaery.

    I guess that’s one of the reasons I didn’t really like the episode. The Ramsay/Myranda hunt scene felt pointless, Bran’s scene felt pointless. Selyse has now become the scourge of Westeros.

    I think I may have had too high expectations for this episode, similar to ‘The Bear and the Maiden fair’. Both felt a let down. Incidentally, weren’t both scripted by George himself? If so, I might not really like his style.

    When it comes to my prime suspect, it is Margaery and the pie that was so fast taken care of. The dead pigeons inside the pie were not all due to Joffrey’s Valyrian steel, I think. If I understang things right (which is doubtful, as an Unsullied), Margaery will now marry the next king: Tommen Baratheon. One said to be far ‘kinder’ than Joffrey and more likely to be shaped by Margaery’s influence. Also, Margaery was the only one that seemed to me acting strange when and after she shouted he’s ‘choking’. That is, except Dontos the fool, he somehow knew, but I don’t suspect him. He must have overheard the plan somewhere.

    (Tywin wouldn’t do this, just no – but it’d be a cruel joke if he did. Cersei, I don’t see why she’d do it, unless she’s really lost her mind now. Tyrion isn’t that stupid. Olenna might have something to do with it, but I believe she had no particular reason. Sansa, despite Sophie saying in interviews she might also be playing the game, wouldn’t yet have the means to plan and accomplish this.)

  90. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Tynus,

    I get the feeling that there is some emotional need to refrain from demonizing Cersei when it comes to her role as a mother. Try looking at this from a manipulative mother’s perspective; if she feigns anything less than love for her children, how likely is that she will receive their cooperation? I think putting her on the pedestal of loving mother also kind of overlooks the fact that the father of her 3 children just so happens to be her own brother! What manner of mother conceives 3 children in such a manner? To that, I say a rather emotionally imbalanced one without any kind of scruples about right and wrong when it comes to what is morally acceptable between blood relations.

  91. Caravaggio
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Stunning episode. Season 4 only 2 episodes in yet stronger than ever.

    Of course Locke and Ramsay are BFFs.

    That dwarf joust. Ugh. I’ve read the books but that scene was still hard and sickening to watch. Leave it to Lord GRRM to crank up his own work to eleven.

    Joffrey. A character so reviled, so despicable, his own creator couldn’t resist killing him A SECOND TIME, and on TV!

    Long live Jack Gleeson!

  92. KG
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    My favorite Joffrey scene is when he tried to get Tywin to care about Dany’s dragons. Gleeson did a great job conveying his bewilderment.

    … and it’s a good thing Joff got offed, because if he’d been allowed to gain the confidence to match his (higher than we’d been led to believe) intelligence, things would have gone pretty badly for the world at large.

  93. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Cersei and Tywin equally grasped that Joffrey was a loose cannon destined to bring more trouble than power to the Lannister family. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they conspired together on this, all for the good of the family of course.

  94. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Two more very solid reasons to suspect Cersei. Hat tip to Lloga.

    + likes to poison her children
    + was very quick to frame Tyrion for it

    The first of these proves beyond any doubt that she absolutely is capable of killing her own children if she feels the circumstances warrant it.

    The second of these suggests she’s willing to use the death of her own child as an occasion to kill more of her own kin.

    One stone, two birds.

  95. Dementia
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    My unsullied think Tywin or Oberyn. I’m kind of surprised more people don’t suspect Oberyn. Does it seem too obvious?

  96. TOIVA
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Greg,

    Well, I was expecting the whole episode to be filled with King’s Landing intrigue (and possibly Littlefinger with Lysa).

    Nothing can compare to that, even less the scenes I mentioned. Speaking of Reek, it seemed the second scene with him was much more interesting (I really liked this one). And to remind viewers of Ramsay’s ‘habits’, the hunt scene felt far too long.

    I love this show and find point in most scenes. The previous episode was stellar (the only quibble being the new Dario and Grey Worm scene, again, feeling somewhat pointless).

    I would love to eventually see those ‘pointless’ scenes get their importance, but so far, I don’t like them taking time that could’ve been spent in much more interesting manner.

    Sorry if my original post sounded whiney, anger at everything was my most immediate reaction to Joffrey dying.

  97. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    TOIVA,

    There is no need to apologize to anyone. Everyone sees different aspects of the show individually and puts together occurrences with other related content that now spans over 3 seasons. Your comments are appreciated as is your opinion.

  98. ANiceChianti
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Bless your heart.

  99. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Mewcat,

    Hello Mewcat! I love the cat people.

    Honestly, I felt like something was coming the whole episode going all the way back to Roose getting face-to-face with Ramsay. The entire 54 minutes or so were tense to me. While there was a shock that Joff was finally dead (and the gruesome way in which he appeared), it was not necessarily a RW moment. But I don’t know if there ever will be another one of those.

    On the other hand, Ozzette almost fell off the couch.

  100. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Dementia,

    Oh sure, I regard Oberyn a suspect, along with the Tyrells, the Fool, and a variety of others. I think Oberyn comes off as being a bit too obvious at this point but not enough to completely rule him out.

    I still feel it’s Cersei. I think there is also a strong chance that she conspired with Tywin on it. Might also explain her convinction that she would NOT be marrying Loras. Perhaps a deal was stuck between her and her father; the price being, merely, the life of that little monster she created.

  101. I Know Of Fear
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Without having read through the comments, I love your theory about the queen regent Oz. You are the only person I’ve seen suspect yet.

    But my money is still on Olenna having tainted the pie, which Joffrey said was so”dry” he needed a drink immediately.

  102. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    I Know Of Fear,

    I’m not sold it was her (although many other Unsullieds are). I know how much she has professed her love for her children in the past, even Joff. But the pie is suspect, although in next weeks previews Marg seems discontent speaking to Olenna when she says “I would have been the Queen”. That could lead one to believe that Marg knew nothing about it. The point is, what if Marg had chomped down on it?

    ANiceChianti,

    Damn right.

  103. Nagga's Kin
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Rather than try to read the tea leaves in the cinematography etc. of events immediately prior to this very public assassination, it might be useful to pose the age-old question: cui bono (who benefits?)

    First, though, let’s consider that this appears to have been a very fast-acting poison. Therefore, it was most likely administered immediately prior to Joffrey’s death, right under the noses of all the gathered high lords and ladies as well as the serving staff, at least some of whom are almost certainly spies working for Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei and no doubt others, respectively. Therefore, the person or persons responsible must have been well-prepared, have plenty of sang-froid, excellent sleight of hand and, either an overwhelming desire for revenge or the prospect of a massive (political) upside to themselves.

    My personal suspects (based on the TV series so far):

    - Tyrion: Famously slapped his nephew in S1E1. Showed competence and bravery before and during the battle of the Blackwater, unlike Joffrey. Has historically preferred wit and diplomacy over violence in serious conflicts. Too smart to hang around his own crime scene. Verdict: not guilty, blindsided, a patsy.

    - Sansa: Stoically suffered Ned’s execution, severe social stigma, public beatings and psychological terror by Joffrey. Has historically feigned demure compliance to avoid an even worse fate. Depressed but not (yet) fatalistic enough to risk regicide, the most heinous of murders. Despises Tyrion’s family and physique but not his person. Not evil enough to set him up as a patsy. Verdict: not guilty, blindsided, possibly an unwitting accomplice in someone else’s plot.

    - Dontos: Re-appeared out of nowhere to thank Sansa for interceding on his behalf by giving her jewelry, a very intimate gift considering they were practically strangers. Wants to make his mark on history before his House disappears. May have chivalrous (i.e. non-sexual) fantasies regarding Sansa. Verdict: possibly a bit player in someone else’s plot.

    - the Queen of Thorns: Politically very astute, de facto in control of the Reach. Wants to be Tywin’s equal partner in politics, perhaps more. Generous but concerned about the calamitous state of the realm’s finances. Plausible orchestrator of an assassination. Very aware of the threat Joffrey poses to Margeary’s physical safety. Knows full well that Joffrey dying before he sires a child with Margaery means Tommen gets to be king and Cersei temporarily regains the role of queen regent. Verdict: potential mastermind, but only if she secured an even better deal than Joffrey’s hand in her daughter’s marriage, e.g. Tommen’s hand (age difference be damned).

    - Margaery: fully aware of Joffrey’s insanity and Cersei’s dangerous jealousy, but confident she has a handle on both. Politically ambitious, but prefers sexual diplomacy to violence. Wants to be the queen, i.e. pull the strings. Can only achieve this by marrying the king and bearing him children. Verdict: not guilty as she has more to lose than gain in the short term, blindsided.

    - Varys: in secret league with Magister Illyrio of Pentos, i.e. loyalty to the realm is code for plotting a return to Targaryen rule. Master of spies, most likely aware of Khaleesi’s progress. Was gelded as a slave and fled to Westeros because slavery had been abolished there. Willing to torture sorcerers but prefers manipulating regular people to murder. Verdict: not guilty as Dany’s is not yet in a position to take advantage of Joffrey’s death.

    - Littlefinger: minor noble with a major chip on his shoulder. Highly intelligent and manipulative, profits financially from shifting alliances and political turmoil (e.g. war). Playing the long game, quite possibly aiming to splinter the realm or turn it into a republic. Absent from King’s Landing but as far as we know still in control of a network of spies and operatives. Verdict: potential wildcard, but only as a facilitator of someone else’s specific plan and only if that furthers his private ambitions into the bargain.

    - Prince Oberyn: frank about his desire for revenge on both Ser Gregor “the Mountain” Clegane and Tywin for the rape and murder of his sister and the murder of her children, many years ago. Enmity toward all Lannisters. Violent, perhaps capable of poisoning, but so far his M.O. appears to be overt. Verdict: a wildcard, but why Joffrey rather than Tywin?

    - Tommen: innocent kid, will now be crowned king. Too young and sheltered to understand the magnitude of Joffrey’s tyranny. Planning and execution of an assassination plot is wildly implausible. Verdict: not guilty, blindsided.

    - Jaime: insecure after losing his sword hand. Recently estranged from his sister Cersei, the mother of his three children. Completely estranged from Joffrey. Killed a Mad King once before for the good of the realm. Murdered a distant teenage relative to escape from captivity. Has no ambition to rule, only reputation as a killer to lose. Verdict: unlikely wildcard as he could not get back with Cersei this way and no longer cares about anyone else’s opinion (with the possible exception of Brienne).

    - Tywin: stone-cold master strategist in de facto control of the realm. Ruthlessly exploits family members as political pawns. Has wiped out at least two noble Houses in his lifetime (Reyne and Targaryen), may have ordered Jaime to commit regicide. Looking to secure his political legacy, but none of his children fit the bill at the moment. Irrationally blames Tyrion for his wife’s death. Aware that Joffrey is both incompetent and an obstacle to securing a lasting peace, without which the crown cannot service its crushing debts to both House Lannister and the Bank of Braavos. Knows that putting Tommen on the throne will cement his power as Hand for the rest of his life. Verdict: a prime suspect, acting either alone or in league with the QoT.

    - Cersei: Joffrey’s sick, twisted mother. Bitter that Tywin is now using her hand in marriage against her will for the second or third time. Once claimed that a mother’s heart has no choice when it comes to her own children, but a chip off the old block when it comes to using them as political pawns herself. Extremely bitter that Tyrion deprived her of Myrcella in this context. Estranged from Joffrey. Almost poisoned Tommen at the end of the battle of the Blackwater to keep him out of enemy hands. Tywin has not (yet) offered her stewardship of Casterly Rock, so Joffrey dying before he can procreate is currently her only route back to political power – especially if she can pin the murder on Tyrion. This might even give her the clout to get out of her own betrothal to Loras. May have directed Pycelle to belay Margaery’s edict and feed the leftovers to livestock in order to cover her tracks. Verdict: a prime suspect, most likely acting alone.

    Bottom line: while it’s conceivable that Cersei suppressed her maternal instincts in a bid to regain political power, IMHO the more likely scenario is a secret pact between Tywin and the QoT. She may have directed Ser Dontos to spirit Sansa away lest Cersei make her a patsy. I doubt she set up Tyrion, he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Just my idle speculation. Sullied, please don’t drop any hints about whether I’m barking up the right tree or not.

  104. Ranok
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Damnit, it’s such fun to read all your unsullied conclusions.

    I’m looking forward to a seperate Ser Holmes/Maester Watson thread.

    Somehow I think this episode will keep our minds occipied through zhe next days

  105. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Attention: people who feel moved to pass themselves off as Unsullied- don’t.

  106. Kay
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    I think it was Cersei and she was trying to poison Margaery. C detests M. On the brink of losing her darling boy to Margaery, Cersei probably got some poison from Qyburn (he had been treating her for some undisclosed illness) and used it. Except, Joff got poisoned. Karma. Cersei’s reactions during Joff’s death were curious. It wasn’t outright shock and maddened grief, it seemed a more “what have I done!”

  107. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Yep, your breakdown is well argued and makes a lot of sense. I tend to agree with most of it though I’m still leaning towards the demented Cersei as prime suspect. The reason I’m inclined to rule out the Queen of Thorns is entirely because of her foreshadowing comment about the monstrosity of mixing murder with nuptials. That seems both too obvious and too hypocritical – does she views herself as a monster? I think not. In any event, I’m looking forward to discovering who the real perp was!

  108. vlyman
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Tynus,

    I agree – it most likely seemed the old Lady Tyrell to me. Perhaps she wanted her daughter to be queen, but she didn’t want her to actually have to sleep with that sadist. Does Marjorie get to keep the crown though? And if not, how do the Tyrell’s benefit?

  109. DoubleD
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    vlyman,

    No consumation, no marriage, no queenship. Margaery walks away with her life, retains her marital value, but nothing else for the time being.

  110. Tar Kidho
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    I loved the episode, this recap, and all of the unsullied comments! Unfortunately, that’s all I’m allowed to say, having read the first four books. Thing is… I read the books a long time ago, and my poor memory only allows me to remember the large story lines, hence I don’t actually remember who did it :-) But just in case there remains some subconcious memory, I refrain from entering the murder mystery solving pleasure.

    Blind Beth: I watched Mad Men right after GoT, so now I keep thinking of f’ed up ads for GoT products…

    Cercei: I don’t always poison my children, but when I do, I use Essence of Nightshade(TM)–a name you trust.

    Joffrey: I don’t always hack priceless books to pieces, but when I do, I use Valyrian Steel(TM). Valyrian Steel(TM): When fire and blood just won’t cut it!

    LOL, those are good, very good :-)

  111. Ranok
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    GG,

    my first thought was Sansa

  112. 3eyes
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    It was interesting to note that Jamie was the only Lannister who immediately became concerned and made a move to help Joffrey. By the time the others reacted, it was obviously too late. Can’t shake the feeling that Sansa’s necklace has something to do with it, and that Cersei’s order to feed the leftovers to the dogs was not random. After watching E1 I sensed that Joffrey would finally get his at the wedding, but enjoyed being shocked/horrified at how it actually unfolded and feeling some small sympathy for the little s**t. Thank you GRRM for not putting us through a wedding night scenario! Thanks also to Nagga’s Kin for the well thought out analysis.

  113. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    ugh.. I hope I didn’t read some spoilers.

  114. 3eyes
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    PS – Couldn’t help laughing at that cut from Ramsey being shaved to Tyrion and Jamie eating sausages.

  115. Veltigar
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    BlackTalon:
    I am surprised – but pleased – that so many people like the episode, I thought it was much weaker than the season premiere

    The episode as a whole was weaker, but with that wedding sequence it really nailed it (shame they didn’t bring that A-game to the RW). It’s a bit like last year where “Kissed by Fire” (episode5) was the best episode overall, but “and now his watch has ended” had the most spectacular scene of the season with Dany’s sack of Astapor.

    Natasha R.: You do anything fun Saturday night?
    Steve R.: Well, all the guys in my barbershop quartet are dead. So the only thing I can do is cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron

  116. Jimbo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Love reading the voice of the Unsullied army! lol :)

  117. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    It was a great episode. The dwarf show pained me. I didn’t fully get the dead birds in the pie at first. In fact, I thought there might be a dwarf in the pie and was ready to be horrified when Joffrey hacked it open. Did anyone else think of the “four and twenty blackbirds” nursery rhyme? I sure did. Didn’t know what it was about when I was little, still don’t know what it’s about (except the pie was for the King). It doesn’t make sense that the Tyrell’s would be involved since they are effectively cut out with Joffrey gone. Why couldn’t someone in the kitchen have been involved? It seems more likely that everyone would know that Joffrey would eat the first piece of pie than drink from a carafe of wine. The thing was, the pie was the relief from all the tension of the horrible dwarf play and then it was the cause of the poisoning (I think). Any way, I’m a bit burned out on King’s Landing after that episode. It was great, but I’m ready for some more action where I don’t have to figure everything out.

  118. Immi
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    Sullied here so I can’t say a damned thing, just wanted to let you know I’ve been lurking for a while and your Unsullied articles are some of my favourites! So interesting to see the things you guys do, or in some cases (no specifics!) don’t, pick up on. Keep up the good work, always look forward to these!

    Oh and while I’m here, speaking purely of TV Brienne and all we know of her, would you guys say she’s in love with Jamie? I don’t think I’m sold on it right now, but we’ll see where it goes I guess.

  119. gosensgo
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    Immi,

    her lack of response could mean she is.. or she had realized at that moment that she was.

  120. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Immi,

    What? Are you serious? Didn’t you see the look on her face? Of course she (Brienne) is in love with Jaime. She may not have known it until then, but really, she doesn’t seem like a very deep character. I thought the observation of her flitting from one camp to another was also one of the more cutting comments in an episode filled to the brim with cutting comments. Of course, it was true, which makes it even more cruel.

  121. Immi
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Yeah I saw her face, but Brienne is hardly emotionally stable. I did see that she could love him, but I also wondered if she was just very uncomfortable talking about that sort of thing, it’s hardly her area afterall.
    First time posting here anyway, and like I said, Sullied, so I’m going to watch my step and not say anything else at all, lest I enrage the mighty overlords of Winter.

  122. Ghost of Godswood
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Loved this episode. Huge props to GRRM,the runners,and all of the cast and crew for a television classic. And Oz,your updates are required reading in this household.

  123. hey now
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    I want to know why Olenna Tyrell decided to lift one of the 7 jewels off of Sansa’s necklace, Huell from Breaking Bad-style. It was a quick shot and almost too obvious to have her play with Sansa’s hair, yet it wouldn’t surprise me if that ends up being a red herring for Joffrey’s death but a clue for something else. Is she going to plant that jewel later on to set up Sansa?

    As an Unsullied, the only thing that seems likely to me is this: more than one person was responsible. One person couldn’t pull that off.

    Two other random thoughts:

    1) It seemed to be the pie, not the wine, that was the cause.
    2) Just thinking outside the box: as strange as it seems and as vile as he was, I’m not 100% convinced that Joffrey was the target. I’m trying to imagine a scenario where the killer was at the wedding, but the wrong person actually ended up dying, yet the killer couldn’t do anything about it once it started without revealing him/herself. Probably unlikely though.

  124. Aphrodite
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Someone on another non-book reader board said they saw the Lady Olenna take one of the jewels off Sansa’s necklace? Did anyone else catch that? If so, this is probably significant. I watched it twice and did not see this.

  125. House Farwynd
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    My money is on Varys. Literally, I got money riding on this.

  126. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Aphrodite,

    Didn’t catch her even noticing the necklace, just mentioning that Sansa should come visit her in High Garden. Have to watch it again. Doesn’t make sense that she would take a jewel. If Lady Olenna wanted something, she’d either ask for it or buy it for herself. She wouldn’t “lift” it like a pickpocket.

  127. grumpycetacean
    Posted April 14, 2014 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    I liked the unsullied recaps when I was unsullied, and I like them even more now that I am sullied. It was so shocking when I read Joff died in the book, I really thought he was going to be around for a long, long time. And I remember really feeling elated lol. My favorite quote this ep (after the one Oz picked from Tyrion) was from Bronn “drink until it feels like you did the right thing”, sometimes there’s naught else to do.

  128. That Stark Girl
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    Well my prime suspicion is that Cersei was attempting to kill Margaery, but that backfired and she accidentally killed Joff. She sent away Pycell, hinting on that the may have known a death was about to occur, and remember that she wanted him to disobey Margaery’s wish for the leftovers to be given to the poor (just further showing that Cersei truly hates her guts and is loathing the idea of her being the more powerful one. Not really implying that Cersei was planning her murder, but just putting it out there.)
    Furthermore, in previous episodes, Cersei makes it well known how much she despises Margaery and her marrying Joffrey would basically signify her losing whatever power she had left over Joffrey, and thus her loss of power overall. However, she does show a very public display of kindness towards margaery just a short time before the death scene, so that might be her making a point of removing any suspicion towards her after the death occurred (since she thought it would be Marg).
    Cersei also had access to the cup, and could surely get her hands on poison. As some people have said, she is also somewhat of an ‘opaque’ character, which leaves some suspicion open.
    When it is actually Joffrey who dies, I think her grief and shock is real, and that she also knows what has happened. She might have done some quick thinking and turned it around on Tyrion when things didn’t go as planned. I mean, she knew it was murder right away (although she could have just been a paranoid mother), and she did have a good minute or two between when Joff started coughing, and when he died, maybe giving her time to think of what she could do (amidst her horror of course).

    So yeah, my main suspect at this point is Cersei.
    I don’t think it was Margaery, because at this point, she would have a lot more to lose than to gain by his death (She’d want to have some children with him first, and enjoy being queen I think). However, it could well have been her grandmother (another suspect of mine). I also don’t think it was Tyrion, Sansa, Tywin, Tommen, or Jaime; either because there was not enough motive (Tywin would have motive, but I think he has other priorities, and is not one to kill family), they were too innocent, or too smart to do it then and there.
    Sir Dantos having prior knowledge is a big topic of discussion here, but being a fool, he could be easily seen as unimportant, and could have simply seen or heard something when he shouldn’t have. I feel like his involvement could be a bit of a dead end when making suspicions. He also seems too cowardly to plot murder.
    Other than all of this, I’d just like to point out that obviously, whoever planned this wanted to remain a mystery, which really makes me think that it was someone close to Joffrey (or Margaery, if I’m actually right). If it was a visiting house who the Lannisters were in conflict with, wouldn’t they want recognition for his death? Sure, it’s a good way to get away with it, but if they openly despise this guy anyway, they’d probably already be a suspect.

    So yeah, that’s about all I’ve got to say. Sorry it’s so much to get through!!

  129. Gatorfisch
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    Anzah:
    You guys wait til the next episode.
    Jaime Lestrade Lannister calls in Ser Holmes of the Reach who arrives with Maester Watson in tow. Oberyn and Elia make Maester Watson uncomfortable. Ser Holmes insults everyone without realizing it. Loras gets jealous of all the attention.

    *Sherlock theme plays in Kings Landing*

    Man, I can honestly picture this.

    Sherlock certainly has the hair to fit in in KL! LOL

  130. Gatorfisch
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    Never have I seen a character’s death celebrated with such joy. As a sullied, I can only say that it was bittersweet watching the t.v. version, only because Jack Gleeson will be sorely missed.

    And Oz, keep up the good work! Yours is my favorite recap of all!

  131. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Seriano,

    Yes, indeed.
    People, refrain from such acts, however innocuous they may seem!

  132. Exodus
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    DoubleD,

    She doesn’t -like- to poison her children. She was willing to poison Tommen in season 2 in order to prevent her son from being mangled, raped and/or burned alive by Stannis’ troops. It was an act of mercy, and the poison she would have used was obviously different to the one Joffrey was killed with. I could hardly believe Cersei would have used such a vicious poison to mercy-kill her second son, while she was trying to comfort him with a story.

  133. Direpup
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    One of the sad points about this episode is that its brilliance will probably not be known for a while.
    If you watch the episode back and really examine every interaction in detail it will become clear who is behind the act.
    The subtlety of dialogue and acting in the episode is sensational, its worthy of Agatha Christie herself! I am a sullied so it did make it easier for me but the clues are there to figure it all out…..I will say no more so as not to spoil it.
    Magnificent stuff from the show makers

  134. Needle in the throat
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:32 am | Permalink

    Fab episode, so very good to have a shocker and we’re only on episode 2.

    How many of you said out loud to yourself “have some of that you little git” ;-)
    Hope all the cruel things he has done previously flashed before his eyes.
    I shall miss him but he deserved that overkill!

    I reckon the pie was suspect. Jof was the only one eating it and why was there a 1 second shot of it later cut open, what relevance was that. Maybe a teaser to throw us of the scent, maybe important. I shall have to wait and see.

    Loved the Seaguls are tasty comment.

    Bran is turning into a spoiled brat, not liking his character at the moment.

  135. Tar Kidho
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    OK, I would very much like to know why my post was deleted. I complimented Oz on the nice recap, and said I didn’t actually remember “whodunnit” because I read the books long ago, but that I’d refrain from entering the guessing game in case some subconcious memory remained. If THAT qualifies as a “spoiler” these days, I’m done with this site. And as you know I’ve been coming here since close to the beginning!

  136. The Pointy End
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    Have not read the comments, so someone could have already mentioned that Cersei was about to use the poison during the seige, when Tywin walked in victorious, at which point she spilled it, so we know it’s gone. Also, “we have a new queen”, unless the wedding can be undone. Seems to me in can not, there is a precedent in the series when Walder Frey says “he spent his wedding night in a cell” referring to Edmure, and we all know what that wedding looked like. And after all, Cersei loved Joffrey, this is the one thing we know about her other than her foul vain personality. Hope this helps!

  137. Bezmina
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    vlyman,
    Didn’t Henry VII marry his brothers widow (wife no 1 that is!), I also thought it might be the QoT due to her line about “who kills people at weddings” to Sansa” but I can’t see how the Fool links to her, where were his family from? Are they team Tyrell? How would she know about Sansa saving his life?

  138. Bezmina
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    Aphrodite,

    I haven’t rewatched but I did think one of the jewels fell off on the left but then I thought it was just behind her really complicated hair. Also how high was Marg’s barnet? When she got up to the altar I thought Joff might have a hissy fit because it made her look taller than him!

  139. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Tar Kidho,

    Hi Tar Kidho,

    Sorry, I did not delete your post, and would not do so based on your description of it. I will check if it got stuck somewhere.

    UPDATE: Fixed. I think the problem was probably in the quote.

  140. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    You can say what you want about Cersei (and there’s a laundry list of despicable things you could) but one thing you can’t say about her is that she doesn’t love her children. I think it was in season 2 where I remember a conversation between she and Tyrion where Tyrion is trying to console her and telling her that “Tommen and Myrcella are good children” and later Cersei makes a comment to the effect that she loves all 3, “Even Joffrey” or something to that effect.
    I’ve always felt that despite all her faults that Cersei’s best redeeming quality was that she was like a fierce mother bear who would protect her cubs at all costs. I just can’t really see her wanting to poison Joff. Wanting to poison Margaery and having it go awry is more likely, as another poster said.
    In regards to ordering off Pycelle.. I think that was more about her trying to blow off steam about no longer being Queen and Pycelle is an easy target for her to bully. She directly contradicts Marg’s decree that the food be given to the poor. That suggests that the action is more about spite and bitterness and just flexing her muscle to show herself she still has authority.

  141. Tar Kidho
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    HMR, thanks for that. I will call this “Sullidical correctness gone mad”… (I miss the times when things were clearer around here, when everybody knew everybody else)

  142. DoubleD
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Exodus,

    After rewatching this scene a couple of times, I am starting to be swayed slightly towards the notion that Cersei was responsible but that Joffrey was not her intended victim. However, if that turns out to be the case, then at the same time, I have to say I will be appalled (or, in the creative sense, disappointed) by the sloppiness of such an act. Seems to me that if somebody intends to poison someone, one would think that they would have gone to great pains to ensure that the intended victim actually ended up with the poison as opposed to inviting this sort of randomness.

  143. DoubleD
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    If the target was Margaery, then Cersei benefits. If the target was Joffrey, then Cersei benefits. At the end of the day, Cersei has the most to gain by keeping Margaery off the throne by whatever means. Cersei remains Queen Regent either way.

    Here’s another question that puzzles me. Why would Jaime have so much confidence that Loras would never marry Cersei? Idle threat by a man who no longer possesses the swordsmanship skills to kill Loras himself or was he sharing inside information?

  144. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Tar Kidho,

    Please don’t hold this against anyone. Especially in these unsullied posts we need to be vigilant and there is lots of work to do monitoring everything, and so little time.

    Grown big and still growing.

  145. Strider
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Tar Kidho,
    It is ridiculous. It did not happen only to you. Sent a tweet to OZ complimenting him on his last one because my comment did not appear in the Comments section and one day later, voila! Magically, my post appeared. Six posts / tweets extra just to get my and your original two posts on through.

    Good job Oz, BTW.

  146. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Not sure but what I took from the shot of the dead birds in the Pie wasn’t that the birds had been poisoned. I think it was meant to portray that even something that should be as peaceful as carving a pie at a wedding feast results in carnage when you’re dealing with Joffrey. hehe

  147. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Ghost of Godswood,

    A man is flattered, Ser Ghost. And quite happy to have you on board.

    Tar Kidho, Strider,

    You guys know that I do not hold the qualification necessary to mod, but I do know that there is a fine line that is somewhat subjective to the moderators. But understand they are also dealing with a larger contingent as Tar references, and it is a thankless job.

    Regardless, I value your input and hope you hang through the growing pains.

  148. Nick Larter
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t read all the comments so apologies if it’s already here, but I’m fairly sure I recall Cersei’s poison bottle falling to the floor and breaking at the end of the Blackwater episode in S2.

  149. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Strider,

    When your post magically appears one day later, that generally means it got caught in the spam filter and a mod took the time to go through several hundred spam posts (daily) to make sure no genuine commenters’ posts were getting lost. With as much posting and commenting as is happening these days, it’s bound to happen. Posting links or accidentally double-posting will get a legit post tagged as spam sometimes.

  150. Strider
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    What you are saying is that not only it caused me a bit of frustration thinking my comment got either deleted or stopped for an unreasonable motive, but it also created more work for a mod who’s taking the time to go through spam. That’s a no win situation and I refuse to contribute to no win situations any longer! One more poster not to worry about should help your cause.

    Also, for the record: my comment did not include either- links, spoilers and was not a double post. And yes, to me it was magical LOL.

  151. GeekFurious
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Being a moderator/admin is a thankless job.

    Give your mod a break today.

  152. Elliek
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    I don’t believe Cersei poisoned him for a second. The main premises of her character so far seems to be her love for her children, that’s been rammed home pretty hard by now. She adores her children, however fucked up they may be.
    Not sure if trying poisoning Marg at the wedding and failing is really her style either. Cersei doesn’t seem to be great at the subtlety needed for poisoning someone in front of a crowd.
    My bets on the Tyrells, for all that they want power I don’t see Olenna ever letting Joff put his hands on Margaery

  153. Charles
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    ” At the end of S2, Pycelle gives Cersei a potion that she plans on overdosing to kill her and Tommen if Stannis had taken the city. Did she use this on Joffrey and got rid of Pycelle just so he would not be there to witness the symptoms? ”

    Wasn’t that vial broken when Tywin and Co come barging into the Throne Room? Cersei dropped it and it broke.

    As for the necklace, a jewel is missing from Sansa’s necklace (the gifted one from Ser Dontas). Close look on DVR and it looks to be the same one that Olenna fingered just after touching Sansa’s hair. You can see the gold triangle’s that each jewel is a part of, and that the one on her furthest left side is gone. Curious I was also that this just could be that both “ends” triangles we’re empty (maybe some symmetry thing) but nope, the one on her far right side is there, just under her hair few slow-mo frames later.

    Also the quick arrival of Ser Dontas asking Sansa to leave with him is crazy suspicious.

  154. Charles
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and it’s also strange where the cup that was given to Joffrey (by his cupbearer Tyrion) was just before he gives it to the King. Sure wasn’t on the same side of the table the King was sitting on, was on the Tyrell side of the dais. Watch it again.

  155. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Charles,

    That vial was broken. I’m sure Cersei had access to more. But then again, almost any of the suspects could get poison I suppose.

    The point was more on the side of why she got Pycelle to leave in such a hurry. Maybe because of the reasons given, but it could have simply been that she was in a foul mood. Or Pycelle’s dead cat cologne.

  156. Charles
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    ” but it could have simply been that she was in a foul mood. Or Pycelle’s dead cat cologne. ”

    Exercising some of her power on someone less likely to tell the new queen about it, let alone Cersei seems to have quite the dislike of Margaery’s seeking favor with the lower classes. She’s more of the fear kind of ruler where Margaery is aiming at being a loved one. I’m sure the lecherous old man’s actions with the Tyrell handmaiden also helped her ire towards him at that moment, plus the smell. ^^

  157. gbnf
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    My first time posting here, love the recaps & as an unsullied I appreciate the vigilance against spoilers.

    Cersei getting ready to poison her son at S2/E9 was an act of mercy. Falling to sleep for good is infinitely better than watching your mother getting raped then murdered before someone puts a sword through your stomach. I do admit that removing the maester from the area gives one pause.

    I feel bad for Tyrion since it appears he got setup. I don’t know how he’ll get himself out of this. Most likely Tywin will be judge & jury. How do you disprove a negative? It’s not like they have CSI back then. Short of the actual person(s) admitting it I’m not sure what will convince Tywin. Even if someone admits it Cersei will try to include Tyrion in the plot because that’s the type of person she is.

    A sullied friend pointed out that the red wedding was not the climax of book 3 & I wouldn’t have to wait for E9 for sh*t to hit the fan. Boy was he right. This season looks like it’ll be a wild ride.

  158. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know that Tyrion “was set up”. He was clearly in the spotlight (and an intensely uncomfortable one at that) until the pie arrived. Cersei seemed to be the only smirking at the exchange between Joffrey and Tyrion. Why wouldn’t Cersei immediately go back to him in rage? Focusing on Tyrion didn’t seem in any way orchestrated or subject to manipulation, just a natural outburst (ok, maybe “natural” isn’t the best word to use, but you get my drift.) I feel bad for Tyrion too.

  159. Mewcat
    Posted April 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    Oz, OMG!!! You and Ozette are so funny! It was tense…definitely…and even a book reader never knows when something new will be thrown in. I wanted to see my husband’s reaction, but my eyes were glued to the screen watching Joff DIE that I never saw his reaction. My stepdaughter told me she too knew something was gonna happen…she was also tense…she thought they’d bring in Shae and torture her at the wedding in front of the guests. But Joff’s death was a MUCH better ending I think.

  160. Lex
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    As a Sullied fan, I know the answer. But I love watching the Unsullied speculation, like a Clue-type murder mystery! I did not expect the show to pull that off, and it makes me like the episode even more.

    In my group, there’s only one Unsullied and he thinks it was Ser Dontos.

  161. Needle in the throat
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    I actually thought Shae was going to be in the pie, then Joff to mock Tyrion whilst scoffing her down with tasty pastry.
    That would cause Tyrion to go mental and go for the King and that’s why we see him in big trouble in the S4 preview.

    Lesson learned, never 2nd guess George :-)

  162. Mrs Q
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    I think you are way off the mark with Cersei – look at all the previous eps when all she has done is talk about her children. She’s an evil bitch but wouldn’t have done that to her own child.

  163. Dany's One-Eyed Dragon
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    That Stark Girl,

    Watched the episode way too many times to try to find that one clue that could identify the killer – just plain maddening! A lot of interesting theories here and will add my two cents on several comments, but will focus on stark girl’s analysis primarily.

    I started to warm up to the idea that it was Cercia’s plan gone wrong. I agree with the contingent that she would not purposefully murder her eldest son. It makes sense how happy she was at what was otherwise a dreadful event for her. And of course she sent master piscelle away, perhaps to avoid any rescue of her intended target. BUT, I could find no instance whatsoever that would indicate any plan went awry. I watched the goblet for details/engravings and placement to see if somehow it got switched. It did not. It was the same goblet throughout the ordeal and Tyrion grab the same goblet at the same place on he head table where Margerey left it after grabbing it from Joffrey. The slice of cake that Joffrey ate was handed right to the royal couple (albeit to Margerey). I imagine if Cersei saw the poisoned cake about to be fed to Joffrey, she would have acted in manner to stop it.

    Thus, I think Margerey is the killer. She had access to either the wine or the cake that no one else did needed to plan a murder. I don’t know if it was the wine or the cake but since our sullied brethren have commented on this being the “purple wedding” I’m guessing the wine. And it looks like she pointed to the goblet when Tyrion came back I’m guessing to make sure that he grabbed the right glass.

    Motive is weak I’ll admit. She was about to become the most powerful woman in Westeros, but perhaps lady olena convinced her that Joffrey was a lost cause and the Lannesters are a financial crisis waiting to happen – she mentioned as much several times in the episode to Tywinn and Sansa.

    So that’s my guess anyway. My only other guess is that prince Oberlyn planned it. I watched to see who handed the cake to the royal couple, and although I could not see her face she had dark braided hair so she could have been a Sands operative (or… I know… from about a hundred other places).

    When I focus on the killing as premeditated, a lot of possibile suspects become eliminated… at least for me. Sansa – Joffrey will tourment my husband and kick the goblet under the table where I can get to it and poison the goblet.
    Dontos – how could he have possibly planned such an act without getting caught?

    Enough on that!

  164. Needle in the throat
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Presuming it’s not Cersei who’s plan has back fired. Just had a thought! Was Joffrey actually pointing to the goblet to show that was the offending item. Then Cersei just presumes it is at Tyrion cos she hates him.

    Jof would have no idea who has poisoned him but would he want his Uncle to take the wrap without knowing who the true enemy is. Does he hate Tyrion that much?
    As we know he is a vengeful little tyke but I can’t believe he would want the wrong person blamed/punished.

  165. Immi
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    I don’t see why Joff would have a problem with pointing the finger, literally, at Tyrion. Look how he had Sansa beaten and humilated when Robb won a victory against the Lannisters. Of course he may have genuinely believed it was Tyrion too, as he was the cupbeared for a bit there, and we all know there was no love lost between them.

  166. Needle in the throat
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Does this also mean that as Marj and Jof didn’t get to make bacon, she isn’t actually Queen, so stripped of position. And her clothes please :-)

    So Tommen gets an upgrade?
    Or will Cersei wed Loras and he becomes King?

  167. Young H
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    varysthespider:
    I don’t think sending Pycelle away would do anything to stop him from finding out. After all, somebody is bound to tell him about the symptoms afterwards, so he can draw his conclusions. The only point in sending him away would be in order to deny him the possibility of giving Joffrey an antidote. But would he happen to have one on him? Of course, she might have sent somebody after him to kill him.

    I instantly thought of Pycelle as Geofferey was dying the slow death of poison; if he was present then presumably he could have assisted him with an antidote . . . but Cersi sent him away which I’ll admit is curious in hindsight. It is often the one you least expect in murder mysteries. What does this regicide do to the royal wedding? There was no bedding ceremony so them marriage was never consumated and can never be now. So does the crown pass to Prince Tommen? This makes me exculpate the Tyrells from suspicion.

  168. Young H
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    House Farwynd:
    My money is on Varys. Literally, I got money riding on this.

    Varys doesn’t have the BALLS to plot a regicide at the royal wedding. It is that simple.

  169. August Mistral
    Posted April 16, 2014 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    I must have watched a 2-minute segment about 50 minutes into the show at least a dozen times. I suggest you do the same and follow the cup!

    And I have a question: with Joffrey dead, what positions/authority do Margaery and Cersei now have?

  170. Sir Poisonous Tyrious
    Posted April 17, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Sir dantos has a strong link to this scheme, as evident from his actions during the wedding. We know that tyrion isn’t part of it, and sansa probably isn’t as well. There are likely to be many conspirators here at hand. But I don’t believe Cersei is on of them. Obryen wouldn’t murder a lannister with poison, not his his style. Margery is probably my best bet. As you can see, she fed him with pie right before he drank. Also, she sat right next to him and his goblet. No one other than her could’ve done this really (before the ceremony someone could put the poison there, but he spilled it all over tyrion).

  171. BRAN THE BUILDER
    Posted April 17, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    Looked to me like Cersei was just drunk and in a foul mood and was tormenting all that she could that day. Pycelle, Tyrion, Brienne, Jamie… Maybe it was her moon blood or something but everyone was felling Cersei’s wrath… I don’t think she would poison her son or attempt to poison his wife. She is still scared of Pop Pop Tywin. Tywin didn’t seem too “choked up” about it though (actually no one really came to his side except for mother and “father”.

    My best guess would be a grand plot from the Tyrells best schemer or Tywin… The Tyrells because they could just propose Marg marry the younger brother whom she can literally raise and control and it would make her Queen Regent and Tywin because he hungers for power and control and with Joff coming of age he would lose that sooner or later… With little Tom Tom as King he would rule the kingdom in his own right for the next 10 years or more.

    Oh and the fool used to be a knight (drunk knight) but still a knight… Perhaps he was someone’s tool or fool.

    That’s my guess

  172. gbnf
    Posted April 17, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Reynardd the Fox,

    Never said I thought Cersei set him up. Only that he had been set up. The list of people who wanted Joffery dead is vast, so is the list who wouldn’t have minded if Tyrion was blamed.

  173. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 17, 2014 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    BRAN THE BUILDER,

    I am 98% sure I know who the guilty party is. But even so, there are holes in the series of events that don’t quite add up which is the only reason for the 2% doubt. And your guesses seem valid to me.

    In retrospect, the professor had nothing to do with it. It was Mrs. Peacock in the conservatory with the garden shears. Maybe. :)

  174. August Mistral
    Posted April 17, 2014 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Randa,

    Thank you for your explanation of the status of Margaery et al.

    Hmm…I can’t make this private? (I’m new.)

  175. Lloga
    Posted April 18, 2014 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    August Mistral:
    I must have watched a 2-minute segment about 50 minutes into the show at least a dozen times.I suggest you do the same and follow the cup!

    And I have a question: with Joffrey dead, what positions/authority do Margaery and Cersei now have?

    I did. And now I know who did it. And how. But I’m not telling you. It’s actually easy to figure out.

    (1) Timeline: Joffrey starts coughing seconds after he drinks from his cup THE SECOND TIME. He drank from it before and was fine. He ate the pie and was fine. He drinks again from his cup and starts dying immediately.
    (2) The cup was put on the table by Marg next to another Tyrell family member.
    (3) Dontos knew what was going to happen, but had no access to the cup at any time.
    (4) If only we had any connection between above mentioned Tyrell and Dontos, like, say another person who had intimate encounters with both of them.

  176. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 18, 2014 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    gbnf,

    Agreed that the list is long! Will be interesting to see next episode.


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