Season 4, Episode 3 – Breaker of Chains – Recap
By Ours is the Fury on in Recap.

Daenerys in Breaker of Chains

The fallout from last week’s Royal Wedding shares the focus in this week’s episode with Daenerys setting her sights on Meereen and the escalating struggle at the Wall. Check out our book reader’s recap below, and share your thoughts in the comments section!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read the books yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!


Sansa and Littlefinger

Viewers dive into the aftermath of the fatal Royal Wedding immediately this week with chaos breaking out as the king lies dead in his mother’s arms. Dontos, the knight-turned-fool, escorts Sansa Stark through the streets of King’s Landing to the water, saving her from arrest. Upon reaching their destination, however, Sansa realizes her savior is not as gallant as she had thought; he delivers her to Littlefinger and she learns the fool was helping her only for the promise of 10,000 golden dragons. Littlefinger pays the deceitful fool for his efforts with a crossbow bolt to the face. Even the necklace he presented her with was false, created by Littlefinger, and he crushes the “gems” to prove that point.

In King’s Landing, the nobility are still reeling from King Joffrey’s death. Margaery Tyrell ponders her troubled marital history, with two dead husbands to her name. The Queen of Thorns offers her wisdom and memories of her own late husband, and assures Margaery that “the next one” will be easier.

Tommen and Cersei

Last week it was the site of a wedding, this week a wake. Prince Tommen and his mother Cersei mourn in the Great Sept of Baelor with Joffrey’s corpse laid out. Tommen, understanding now that he will be king, is being educated by their grandfather Tywin about the history of good kings of Westeros, and where they went wrong. As the older man leads the prince out to continue their discussion including his marital obligations, Jaime enters, dismisses the guards, and joins Cersei.

She weeps and blames Tyrion for her son’s murder, pleading for their brother to be found and killed. Jaime comforts and kisses her, but Cersei pushes him away. Jaime forces himself on her, with her refusing and insisting “Not here, it isn’t right,” but he doesn’t stop.

arya

Continuing their adventure through the Riverlands, Arya and the Hound discuss their future, with the girl considering Braavos (the Essos home of Syrio Forel and Jaqen H’ghar) and the Hound thinking about a career in the Second Sons. They encounter a farmer and his daughter, and accept their hospitality. They learn during dinner that the common folk are calling the slaughter at the Twins “the Red Wedding”- and that the farmer is hoarding some silver. Before leaving the farmer’s home the next day, the Hound robs them, violating guest right, despite Arya’s vehement protests.

At the Wall, Sam is having his own troubles, with his brothers refusing to believe he killed a White Walker, and Alliser Thorne scornfully nicknaming him “Sam the Slayer.” He’s also jealous over Gilly and her presence at Castle Black; he’s worried about her remaining in a castle full of rapers, and men lying awake all night thinking about her. Gilly wonders if Sam is among those who think of her at night, and he can’t bring himself to admit his feelings for her, beyond being worried.

Shireen

Stannis shares with Davos the news of Joffrey’s murder, but is not as pleased as one would expect, believing that using Gendry’s bastard blood is preventing him from being able to capitalize on the king’s passing. Davos comes up with a new plan: they need soldiers to win the war, so they should hire a mercenary company. However lack of funds is an issue. It’s during a visit with Princess Shireen that Davos comes up with a solution. Spotting a book about the First Swords of Braavos, he realizes that there is a way to secure the money: the Iron Bank of Braavos.

Back in the North near the Wall, Sam has decided that a solution to the problem of Gilly’s safety will be finding her a new home in Mole’s Town. The brothel in the town near the Wall is willing to employ her to help out the prostitutes with cleaning and caring for their children, though the madam offers Gilly other work as well. Sam insists, “NO other work,” and Gilly will remain in Mole’s Town for the time being. She feels Sam is doing what’s best for him, not her, and the two part ways unhappily.

In a brothel in King’s Landing, Oberyn and Ellaria are enjoying themselves with a happy fivesome when they are once again interrupted by a Lannister. This time, it’s Tywin, come to ask Oberyn about his past study of poisons- and to ask him to be a judge at Tyrion’s trial. He denies having had a hand in the death of Oberyn’s sister Elia and invites him to join the Small Council of the King, because “We are not Seven Kingdoms until Dorne returns to the fold.” He is aware of Daenerys and her dragons, and admits that the Crown needs Dorne to fend her off.

Tyrion

Tyrion receives a visitor in his prison cell- his squire Pod, bringing him food and the news that his trial will be in a fortnight with Tywin, Oberyn and Mace Tyrell judging; that Sansa has fled; and that Tyrion’s allies are being stripped away. They’ve even offered Pod a knighthood which the young man declined. Realizing he is in danger for displaying loyalty to him, Tyrion orders Pod to find Jaime for him, and then to get himself out of King’s Landing.

The action then switches to an idyllic landscape in the North, with a father and son talking- just as an arrow kills the father and wildlings fall upon the village. Ygritte and Tormund’s band, joined by the Thenns, slaughter their way through the villagers, and Styr drags the surviving son out from a wagon. He allows him to live so he can carry a message to the Night’s Watch.

Jon Snow

The men of the Watch are enraged by the attack, and debate over how to proceed. Their numbers are desperately low, having only a hundred men. Even Jon is forced to admit they can’t ride out to save innocents, because Mance Rayder is coming for them with a hundred thousand men. Dolorous Edd and Grenn return, having survived the mutiny at Craster’s Keep, and inform the brothers that Karl is in charge, keeping Craster’s women at his place. Jon realizes that the mutineers have dangerous information and that when the wildlings get a hold of them, Mance Rayder’s people will then know how few people are manning the Wall, damning them.

At the walls of Meereen, a champion rides out to greet Danerys and her army of Unsullied. The nobility of the city, surrounded by numerous slaves, gather on the walls to watch. The champion shows disrespects to her and her army by urinating in her direction and insulting her, and the khaleesi’s men volunteer to take on the champion. She decides that Grey Worm, Jorah and Barristan are too valuable in their roles to stand as her champion but allows Daario Naharis to fight for her.

Dany and her people

The sellsword speedily dispatches the champion by bringing down his horse with a thrown dagger, allowing him to kill the fighter easily on foot. Daenerys steps forward then to address the people on the walls- not the wealthy nobility, but the slaves.

She tells of the slaves she has freed, and with trebuchets launches barrels that crash into the walls of Meereen, breaking open and emptying their contents on the ground. The slaves bend to look, and see that Daenerys is showing them proof- countless numbers of broken collars from the people she has freed.

What I Liked

Raising the stakes at the Wall – With the brutal attack (a great scene in and of itself) on the village near Castle Black, and the impending invasion, it’s getting tense at the Wall, and it’s bringing out the best in Jon Snow.

Stannis & Davos- Stannis is showing some flair (giving Stephen Dillane a chance to shine) and Davos has a plan, and there’s finally something happening in the Dragonstone storyline.

Meeting Meereen- You know it’s good when Dany’s ass-kicking music plays. The episode may have ended without showing what happened, but it was clear, the slaves got the message. Bonus: getting a sneak peek at Hizdahr zo Loraq on the walls in the final moments.

Tommen is growing up- Recasting is always controversial, especially when an actor’s already been on the show in a different part. But Dean-Charles Chapman is making the role his own, and the scene with Cersei and Tywin displayed the sweetness that book-readers expect from the good-hearted prince who would be king.

What I Didn’t Like

Jaime forcing himself on Cersei- I understand that Alex Graves has said in an interview with Hitfix that in his mind, the sex “becomes consensual by the end.” Unfortunately, what was depicted onscreen looked and sounded like rape. And while I don’t want Jaime to be a whitewashed character in terms of morality, this is a step too far- a major misstep, in fact. Edit: In this interview with THR, Graves actually refers to the scene as “rape.”

Small impact of Dontos’s betrayal – The effect of Dontos shattering Sansa’s faith in him, of another hero failing her, was very weak because we didn’t see Dontos at all in season 3, and barely in season 2. Dontos should have been reintroduced a lot sooner for that storyline to be really effective.


516 Comments

  1. loco73
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Outstanding episode! I am soo impressed with this season! The show is on fire!

  2. GB
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    What an episode! One of the best of the entire series. Such intensity and bad assery.

  3. loco73
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Oh yeah Hodor!

  4. house snow
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Man they are really starting to drop all these little nuggets all over the place. Also i guess we now know how ygritte is going to die

  5. David The Grey
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    There were three high points for me this episode:

    1) Sam & Gilly’s exchange while plucking geese

    2) Tyrion’s farewell to Pod, and Pod’s choked goodbye (got teary-eyed over that!)

    3) and Dany’s scenes at the gates of Meereen, especially to the tune of her “Conqueror’s theme” music (which was introduced in episode #4 last season).

    Oh there was a lot more I liked – all of it, really – but those three scenes moved me the most. I am going to miss Alex Graves!

  6. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Best scene: Dragonstone. Golden Company shoutout :-]. Also Daavos with a nice Iron Bank idea :-]

  7. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    house snow,

    With an arrow shot at her back?

  8. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Why is Missandei still translating?

  9. LordStarkington
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    I liked everything but the Jaime/Cersei scene. After reading Graves’ comments, it seems like my issue is that I don’t think Cersei’s consent was clear enough.

  10. Andrew
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    The post is up much faster this week. Thanks, Fury! Anyways, I really liked this episode. The scene between Tywin and Tommen was especially cool, partly because of all the historical references they could use. Tyrion and Pod’s scene was great, too!

  11. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Really? I thought they chose to intentionally make it look like a rape scene. Thats what I saw.

    If that was not their intention than they clearly effed it up

  12. GeekFurious
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Of all the episodes that have followed major “game changer” episodes, this is my favorite. No doubt. It may even be one of my favorite episodes ever.

  13. Nancy
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Leto II,

    Yes (her consent seemed to be very absent to me). Bye Bye Jaime’s character development.
    Not my favorite episode this season.

  14. Amanda M
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    I liked the episode over-all. But making the Sept-sex rapey really upset me. I’m still hung up on that hahaha

  15. Josh
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    So that Wilding scene was pretty intense.

    I really liked the Pod and Tyrion scene. But…It again worries me about if they’ll blunt the edges of this storyline. No Shae death. No Bronn betrayal…etc…

    That Baelor scene was rapey…It just felt like Cersei didn’t want it….It was uncomfortable to watch and not for the reason it was in the books, but because it just felt…rapey..

    Pretty badass Daario scene. They’ve definitely changed the character for Dany’s sake.

  16. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Which part stood out most to you? My fave was the dragonstone scene because it had nice nuggets for book readers :]

  17. Lossoth
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    So what was the “one of the best speeches” hinted about in the last article? First impression is Daenerys, but I really liked Tywin and Tommen’s exchange.

  18. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    I don’t really consider what Bronn did a betrayal. He refused to fight for Tyrion who had nothing to offer. Bronn is a sellsword acting as a sellsword would act. He names his son after Tyrion afterall.

  19. Renly's Peach
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    I can already hear the collective wail coming out of Tumblr because of that Jaime/Cersei scene.

    What were they thinking, though? Why would they make her fight against it? I mean she was in the moment, yeah.. but still..
    There goes his entire character redemption in the eyes of the hardcore feminists.

  20. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Can Tommen and Tywin just rule together forever!

    Also Emilia’s speech was awesome. God her Valyrian *drools*

  21. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Lossoth,

    I’m pretty sure the speech that Alex Graved talked about was Dany’s. I also loved Tywin’s speech.

  22. House Nieder
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    I thought the episode was brilliant. The Tywin / Tommen exchange is one of the best of the series, as was the Tywin / Oberyn exchange. WOW. Charles Dance is going to be sorely missed next season, his presence on screen is captivating.

    As for the Jaime / Cersei love making in the sight of Joffrey… A little too rapey? Am I the only one? In the book it is much clearer. I guess no means no anyway but she eventually consents, I dunno, in the show it just seemed like all of Jaime’s redemption went away after that scene. Not for me because he is in my top 3 characters but I could see how unsullied could go back to hating Jaime… Just my two cents.

    Overall excellent episode, wow. Dany’s catapults WOW.

    Annnnnnd. Poor, poor Dontos. Additionally, I will never understand Aiden Gillen haters, though. He is impeccable.

    And last but not least: Did I spy with my little eye, Cold Hands for next week’s episode? Look, I know. It’s been confirmed he’s out. BUT. Why infuse what looks like Cold Hands with a very fast frame of Bran? Maybe it’s just senseless torturing of the sullied. I just thought it was interesting.

  23. GeekFurious
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Nancy:
    Leto II,

    Yes (her consent seemed to be very absent to me).Bye Bye Jaime’s character development.
    Not my favorite episode this season.

    I doubt we’re meant to think she consents. They changed it from the book. Simple as that.

    Let’s see how it plays out in the show.

  24. Phil
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    I really thought they had screwed up the Sansa escape, but they really brought that storyline back around. Nice compression from the books. Also the Dragonstone stuff they added makes sense, will help set up when Tycho shows up at the wall later with Stannis

    But the sept scene, seriously….WTF. Jamie is making such a turnaround, way to ruin it.

    really liked the Hound and Arya stuff in ep one. Here though it dragged a bit get her to Bravvos already

  25. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Favorite line: “The ominous they”

  26. Lex
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Oh boy. Haven’t seen it yet, but I’m worried about this Jaime scene. Wondering just how bad it is. I remember people thought the Alton Lannister thing ruined Jaime’s redemtion, but I disagree about that one.

  27. Gecc1
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    zaprowsdower,

    The people of Mereen talk in “Old Ghiscary”. Danny speaks “High Valyrian” (which the inhabitants of the slaver cities can understand, but it is not their everyday language). Danny needs Old Ghiscary translated to the Common Tongue.

  28. Arthur
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    This was my favorite episode this season!

    So many high points and great dialog.

    Loved the Dany speech, Tyrion and Pod, and Oberyn and Tywin.

    My only nitpick would be they should have staged that scene with Oberyn while he was sparring with another Dornishman instead of at the brothel. However, I guess they are trying to build up Oberyn’s sex appeal instead of his warrior image. We still have plenty of time for that and I can’t dare complain about lack of action this season.

    This was such a smooth flowing episode it went by soooo fast! Every scene was captivating and this is definitely one of my top 5 favorite of all seasons so far because of that.

  29. Mike
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Overall this episode non surprisingly continued the trend of excellent episodes, I loved Sansa’s escape, News Tommen’s first real scene, and Tyrion and Pod, but I hated what happened with Jaime and Cersei, it disrespected the man Jaime had become, he went from protecting Brienne from being raped to raping someone he loved, and it was sort of gross. Luckily the rest of the episode was great, and I just wish D&D had either removed that scene entirely or kept it in its consensual form.

  30. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Phil,

    And this is why the people saying “We need more Arya and the Hound” need to quiet down a little. Sometimes it is vey hard to create interesting filler scenes. Filler works really well in Kings Landing because you have a lot of court intrigue.

  31. GeekFurious
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Oh boy. Haven’t seen it yet, but I’m worried about this Jaime scene. Wondering just how bad it is. I remember people thought the Alton Lannister thing ruined Jaime’s redemtion, but I disagree about that one.

    Depends. Are you married to the books? Then you’ll hate it. Or are you just going along for the ride on the show? Then it creates a screwed up dynamic that makes Jaime a more flawed character than he is in the book. I’m not losing my shit over it. Though, if they never address it again, I’ll probably have a problem with it.

  32. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    I wasn’t a fan of the rape scene. I’m not a fan of rape scenes in general though

  33. Mariamb
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Aidan Gillen was amazing. The appropriate mix of creepy, pervy and untrustworthy. I am really looking forward to the Vale storyline and the web he will weave.

    Two episodes in a row for my girl, Shireen. I love that she is portrayed as smart and savvy. I need more of Team Dragonstone.

    Charles Dance kills it in each scene. Great conversation with Tommen and a powerful head-to-head with Oberyn.

    Got teary-eyed in the Pod and Tyrion scene. And Daario can be my champion any time.

    My only question: does Gilly going to Mole Town serve a greater purpose in the story?

  34. ChillinLikeSerIlyn
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Well, its not actually his son, its the bastard born of 50 fathers.

  35. GeekFurious
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    GeekFurious,

    I wasn’t a fan of the rape scene. I’m not a fan of rape scenes in general though

    So weird. I thought everyone loved rape scenes….

    I thought the scene was fucked up but it also made me consider what it would mean down the line and how D&D were going to use it to tell their story. I didn’t dive down the “this ruins his redemption” rabbit hole since I haven’t seen the rest of the episodes. I have no idea what they are going to do with it. None of us do. So why make blanket statements about what it means for his character BEFORE you see the rest of the story?

  36. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    There goes his character arch regardless of whether someone has a “feministic” stance. Are you joking? It didn’t appear consensual to anyone. It gave very intense rape vibes. Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

  37. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    $1 says we get this Jaime chapter book quote from Elio’s review:

    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

    - A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII

  38. Mario Mjoed
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    And last but not least: Did I spy with my little eye, Cold Hands for next week’s episode? Look, I know. It’s been confirmed he’s out. BUT. Why infuse what looks like Cold Hands with a very fast frame of Bran? Maybe it’s just senseless torturing of the sullied. I just thought it was interesting.

    im pretty sure that was a white walker.

  39. Phil
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    so is it safe to assume that Tywin knows Dany has three dragons becasue Jorah is still spying for them at this point. I hope they don’t skip over his betrayal (they’re going to need it for him to meet up with Tyrion next season.

  40. Td44
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Where the hell was Strong Belwas? Since when does Jaime rape Cersei? They are fucking up the story arc of Sam/Gilly/Aemon…the only good thing was Sansa’s scenes. Disappointing. Still I guess it’s like an RPG, each time you playthrough it’s always a little different but you get the main story, which I guess is the whole point.

  41. rudy
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Don’t worry jamie will redeem himself next week with oathkeeper

  42. Andrew
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    I suggest everyone upset about the “change” go and read the scene at the sept from ASOS. It sure doesn’t read consensual.

  43. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: So weird. I thought everyone loved rape scenes….

    I thought the scene was fucked up but it also made me consider what it would mean down the line and how D&D were going to use it to tell their story. I didn’t dive down the “this ruins his redemption” rabbit hole since I haven’t seen the rest of the episodes. I have no idea what they are going to do with it. None of us do. So why make blanket statements about what it means for his character BEFORE you see the rest of the story?

    I respect their decision to film whatever scene they want, was just giving my opinion about the scene itself. I don’t think it will effect Jaime’s redemption arc in the grand scheme of things since I know whats coming in next episodes Oathkeeper and Jaime’s actions in the finale when he admits the truth to Tyrion about Tysha

  44. JamesL
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,
    It’s already been posted but I’ll post it again for you

    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.
    - A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII

  45. tdraicer
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    On the Jaime/Cersei scene, I thought it made a lot more psychological sense on both their parts than the way the scene played in the book, so I consider it one of those times where the show trumped the book.

  46. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    More flawed? It was a monumental fuck up by the show. It was damn near character assassination. Nothing they have done with Stannis,Sansa, or Catelyn comes close to how they screwed up the potrayal of Jaime in this episode. This is the same character that saved Brienne from rape twice. The same guy that lost it and hanged his own men when he found out they raped a whore.

  47. David The Grey
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Interior Bannisters: Also Emilia’s speech was awesome. God her Valyrian *drools*

    I would not want to eat crackers in her bed, let me tell you!

  48. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Andrew,

    It actually does read consensual in the books. The writers decided to make a change. Thats all. Would prefer not to have scene it but don’t think it will ultimately ruin anyones character

    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

  49. gewa76
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    I think that’s Bloodraven.

  50. house snow
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: back

    by that kid. They gave him a long close up staring at ygritte

  51. Bain
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink
  52. JamesL
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    That seems like shoddy writing though. He pushes a little boy out a window and then takes multiple seasons to somewhat redeem himself and then he rapes his sister but it’s okay because he will just redeem himself again by doing some nice things.

  53. CJ
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Phil,

    Everyone in the world has heard of Dany’s dragons by now. I’d imagine Varys heard from one of his spies in Qarth as that’s around the time King’s Landing starts talking about the dragons. I doubt Jorah is still spying.

  54. Miz
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Are people actually complimenting this crap?

    They DESTROYED Jaime’s character. Utterly, completely. I’m aghast at what a mistake this is. I need more time to come up with the words, but I’m absolutely disgusted.

    Not to mention the continued Stannis character assassination.

  55. Ashara D
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think that the Sept sex scene will set Jamie’s character development back, I think it actually will make it clearer. He’s desperately grasping at remnants of his past life as it slips away. Early in the scene he has the exchange with Tommen where he acts a little fatherly. Then he comforts Cersei, they kiss. In his head, he’s going to make a better go of his former life–love Cersei and Tommen no matter what. Then Cersei’s rejects him and asks him to kill Tyrion and he starts to see the irreparable cracks in his fantasy. As his story continues he will realize that he must reinvent himself completely to redeem his honor; that nothing he has done can be redeemed or seen as honorable even if he owns up to it. Thus, he begins his quest to make himself the honorable man he wants to be. D&D should be able to show us his hopelessness and then his resolve pretty clearly now.
    Yes, it was a bit rapey and VERY uncomfortable. People need to get over that. That’s what your SUPPOSED to feel about a scene like that. This is an adult show and they are successfully portraying the awefulness of rape. That is a good thing.

  56. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Td44,

    Strong Belwas isn’t going to be in the show. George said it a while back on his blog.

    Gecc1,

    I don’t think that’s true? I’m pretty sure Old Ghiscari is not spoken in any of the cities of Slaver’s Bay and was a dead language. And regardless of the books, it is certainly a dead language in the series: http://www.dothraki.com/2013/09/new-dothraki-script/#comment-3702 Anyway, it’s not a huge deal. Just odd after the reveal last season.

    And the sept scene was awful.

  57. tysnow
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Again another adapted episode of GoT by D&D floors me with their outstanding alterations…
    The Tywin/Tommen scene was just so Solomonly awesome and so too was Tywin/Oberyn, absolutely brilliant.
    Loved the Sam/Gilly plunking the chickens…but poor Sam, he just lost respect in her eyes by dumping her off to Moletown (He forgot she is Widling, they don’t respect men who do what he just did)
    Arya getting some real world lessons by her new foster dad. She was behaving all Starky, while he enlightened her to how Westeros Society truly functions.
    I loved the Wall scenes but they just moved to fast, I wanted the episode to linger there more.
    Tyrion and Pod nuff said (sniff).
    Dany rules the night with her arriving at Meereen, and loved Daario’s quick dispatch of the champion. Personally I am tired of short duels, cannot wait for episode eight.
    Sansa and LF stole the show though, the scene was just atmospheric, crisp, full of important grammar and perfectly executed. Hopefully unsullied will begin putting the pieces together.
    Speaking of…poor poor Marg, and her delighfully devious grandma,what more can I say than bravo…
    Which brings me too the wicked way in which D&D have altered that story line for the benefit of our favorite Onion. Dragonstone was brief but with the strength of Iron in her scenes.
    Without a doubt according to this fan of the books and the adaption, the second best episode of Game of Thrones yet. Blackwater still reigns though.
    Which proves a adaption doesn’t have to follow the source material verbatim.

    PS: Loved the Sept scene, but I wanted them both naked, damn contracts.

  58. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    I was hoping that Joff’s body would roll off the table and onto J & C as they became entangled.

  59. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Someone mentioned an article where the director said it was meant as being consensual. If that was the case, they royally fucked up in portraying it. Just look at the first two comments in the unsullied thread from previously.tv:

    “And Jaime, you were doing so well on redeeming yourself and now you go and do that?”

    “Jaime…shame on you.”

    How can anyone defend the scene’s execution, knowing that they intended for it to seem consensual, but failed so miserably.

  60. Helen Tran
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Can’t wait to read all the recaps – its like watching the episode all over again. :)

    http://tiny-tran.blogspot.ca/2014/04/crystal-clay-game-of-thrones-part-7.html

  61. Miz
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    Please tell me you are trolling.

    Please.

    Nobody can actually think like this. I refuse to believe it.

  62. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Well if they intended for it to be consensual than yea, they totally fucked it up.That did not look consensual in the least bit.

  63. tysnow
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Get over it was not not rape, she wanted it, sometimes she mewed no, but she really wasn’t fighting him off hardcore, therefore to Jaime she really wanted him, it was the location that was bothering her.

  64. House Nieder
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    It’s like, Game of Thrones does Gatsby! Kidding, but I liked your interpretation, he’s desperate.

  65. Gooderson
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Holy moly everyone on the internet complains WAY too much.

    1. They may have unintentionally presented it more rape-y than they intended. Oh well, the episode already aired! Guess we have to keep on living our lives.

    2. Again, I don’t care if they change the books, I don’t care if Jaime gets “redeemed” – sorry!

    3. And people… Please. Jaime and Cersei aren’t real! Shocking, I know. If a fictional character has something bad happen to them — no injustice has been done in real life, I promise you. The internet is going absolutely INSANE over this. I really don’t know what to say. I don’t think you should rape people. Should fictional characters rape people? I don’t really have an opinion BECAUSE THEY DON’T F—ING EXIST!!!

    /deep breath

  66. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Some unsullied reactions from neogaf about the rape.

    “So Jaime raping Cersei right next to the fresh corpse of their bastard son. This really bothered me. Jaime was growing on me more and more over the past couple seasons but this definitely changed that.”

    “Couldn’t he rub one out? Get himself a whore? I think he doesn’t really give a fuck about Joffreys death. Nearly everything he does seems to be as a result of his obsession with his sister and that alone.
    Yeah, that was disgusting. Of all the characters, I thought he would have enough empathy to understand that a mother might not be down to fucking just after her son was murdered. Then he calls her hateful and rapes her for daring to grieve. Jamie is back under the giant asshole list. I hope Cersei never forgives him.”

  67. Amanda M
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    I’m still so upset by that Sept scene. It’s the first time a change on the show has made me so angry.

    I wish this could be the one exception to the “don’t tell the unsullied fans anything that was changed from the books” rule. They need to know that Jaime is NOT a rapist. It’s gonna be painful to read Oz’s recap and the comments… Poor Jaime. The unsullied will hate you again (unjustly!) :(

  68. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington:
    I liked everything but the Jaime/Cersei scene. After reading Graves’ comments, it seems like my issue is that I don’t think Cersei’s consent was clear enough.

    I think that’s kind of why I liked it. Her consent isn’t clear, which does “gray” the character of Jaime even more. It’s a tough scene to watch.

  69. house snow
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    As an aside I can’t believe people think Jamie is on a redemption arc. Talk about misreading the book.

  70. Andrew
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Consensual my ass. Very convenient that you all are leaving out the preceding bit:

    There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.”

    Right. Consensual. Sure.

  71. Dorne tootin'
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Best.
    Season.
    Ever…

  72. zaprowsdower
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    But the director didn’t intentionally change the plot to make what happens in the sept nonconsensual. It just really really really didn’t read that way:

    (*) When I interviewed Alex Graves about “The Lion and the Rose,” we also spoke briefly about the Jaime/Cersei scene and about how the encounter starts out as Jaime forcing himself on her, then turns into something else. This is what he said:

    Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. And it was very much about the earlier part with Charles (Dance) and the gentle verbal kidnapping of Cersei’s last living son. Nikolaj came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That’s one of my favorite scenes I’ve ever done.

    From here: http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-uncle-deadly

  73. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Mods please delete that comment from Da Rapist? That deserves a banning too. Especially if it’s a sock puppet.

  74. LordStarkington
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    It might be a case of me having a different reaction to the the scene on screen than on paper, I’m not sure. I find the book version pretty squicky already (much more so than many/most I think, so it doesn’t take much for it to cross the line ;)

    I guess I’ll see what I think on second viewing in a few minutes…

  75. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    zaprowsdower,

    Yes I believe Alex Graves screwed up as it looked like a Rape

  76. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    I’m a little torn about Jaime/Cersei. Personally I think those who believe it was consensual in the books should reread. She says no very clearly and tries to push away. Then when it’s clear what’s gonna happen she starts whispering in his ear. When I read that, it seemed clear (to me) she was just saying that to get it over with, because afterwards she’s disgusted with him again. I certainly was.

    However, this is worse. Because Jaime never hears any consent from her, before/during/after. He has to have known he was raping her. Whereas in the book it was shitty but I suppose he could rationalize himself to the idea that she wanted it because of what she said during.

  77. Gooderson
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    zaprowsdower,

    I might be splitting hairs here, but it is -possible- the characters “consented” but nevertheless it is unclear (or even strongly presented as rape) to a third party viewer. But I do think it is more likely they messed up.

  78. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    They really did mess up by not making it clearer that it eventually became consensual. At least we can show unsullieds that interview without breaking the no book comparisons rule. The scene was always going to be uncomfortable, icky and controversial, but it the way it was executed made it much worse.

    I, for one am just going to pretend it happened like in the books.

  79. House Nieder
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    house snow,

    What is your interpretation of Jaime in the books?

  80. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: I think that’s kind of why I liked it. Her consent isn’t clear, which does “gray” the character of Jaime even more. It’s a tough scene to watch.

    Yeah…remember in ASoS, the first time they saw each other, they awkwardly and energetically reconnected over Joff’s corpse. And it was the end of their relationship. Since the show brought him back earlier, they allowed the tension to build up and it suddenly burst in a fiery manner as well. This is an emphatic end to their 25 year love affair! It was ugly, it was disturbing and they are fucking done.

  81. KG
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    I think we have seen an actual mis-step by the writing team :/

  82. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Queenofthorns,

    In the book she is worried that they might get caught, not that he might be raping her. I’m not saying the book scene wasn’t twisted, it was, but the show’s version looked like flat out rape, which the director admitted was not the intent. One mishandled scene ruined the character for many of the unsullied. It’s sad that it happened at all, but right before a triumphant moment for the character in the next episode just makes it worse.

  83. Tatters
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Miz,

    Buhu
    I dont think i noticed how ugly that was before i remebered who these people are.

  84. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Other than the Sept scene, I think this was an outstanding episode overall. My heart will always belong to Ser Davos and Shireen, and a close second to Arya and Sandor. Littlefinger was creepy, of course, but speaking of creepy, can you imagine poor Tommen getting “that talk” from Tywin Lannister?

    Of course, Tywin does know a little bit about that topic:
    http://bit.ly/1h2prdz
    http://bit.ly/1h2wljg

  85. Tatters
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    Do people here actually think Jaime is a good person?
    Murderer, oathbreaker, kingslayer, incestous, there is no excuse for this.
    Just as bad as his brother, sister, son and father all.

  86. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Josh,

    I don’t really consider what Bronn did a betrayal. He refused to fight for Tyrion who had nothing to offer. Bronn is a sellsword acting as a sellsword would act. He names his son after Tyrion afterall.

    Agreed.

    Bronn’s “betrayal,” such as it is, is a minor one at best in that he accepts the offer to marry Lady Stokeworth from Cersei. He elects not to fight the Mountain for some really good fucking reasons, and it brings up Brown Ben’s dictum: “There are old sellswords, and there are bold sellswords, but there are no old bold sellswords.”

  87. Anonymous
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    I think that GOT’s Cersei view of the “event” was not that she was being raped.

    Still a harsh scene to watch

    However, definitely not harsher than Drogo-Daenerys scene in the first season, c’mon!

  88. Miz
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Gooderson,

    You’re telling people on a fansite not to care about one of the fandom’s most popular characters.

    Yeah, no. Hope you aren’t passionate about anything in life then, because obviously you CARE TOO MUCH AND JUST NEED TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH RIGHT?

    The sun will rise, the world won’t end, but fans of the books have a legitimate reason to be upset.

  89. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: Then it creates a screwed up dynamic that makes Jaime a more flawed character than he is in the book. I’m not losing my shit over it. Though, if they never address it again, I’ll probably have a problem with it.

    The thing is, we hear on and on from people about how characters are being whitewashed, over and over. And this takes one of our characters slowly becoming a favorite and really does muddy those waters – and now the knives come out for that. Her consent is minimal at best, and that’s being generous. But now, complaining about the direction that’s taken. Sure, it’s uncomfortable and harsh – it’s meant to be as such, and I found it uncomfortable myself.

  90. Ser Osis of Liver
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    I should also say that the changes they’ve made to the books are vastly more positive than negative this year. What they’re doing for Dany to take Meereen is far more interesting and photogenic than it would have been as a straight interpretation from the books.

    Love the idea of bringing Braavos and the Iron Bank into the story so soon, and as a way of financing their future exploits, and the ships and provisions they’ll need for Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! Not too sure about bringing the Golden Company into the mix, though. Their role is very clearly defined in ADwD and critical to the plot.

    I wish we could have seen Strong Belwas, but Daario did him proud.

    And was I the only one who squeed a little inside when Ser Alliser used the three magic words I so desperately wanted to hear last year, north of the wall–Sam the Slayer!

  91. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Blunted,

    Mods? A little assistance here? I’m sure no one wants to see comments like these on posts.

  92. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Here’s an interesting article regarding the Jaime/Cersei scene on AV Club:
    http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

  93. Butterbumps
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Gooderson,

    I agreed with this. There are millions other things in the real world to get angsty about, not sure why people are getting upset at an adaptation choice of a scene from the book. I mean ffs.

  94. Polish
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Interesting… the GoT recapper at Entertainment Weekly says he has an “interesting quote” from Martin about the power of the leeches that he is saving for after a later episode… can only presume its the episode that Balon dies in. Makes sense that that will happen after Yara and the Ironborn are reintroduced more thoroughly.

  95. Teresa Neves
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    “Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.”

    No. No no no no. So many levels of no. NCW knew what his character was doing, why doesn’t Graves?

    I adore this show, but this makes my stomach churn with revulsion. That scene was rape, there wasn’t any sort of consent from Cersai.

  96. Ljam
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Last week everyone praised Joffreys death despite he was a kid. Today everyone who cheers for Cersei being raped is flamed on by the “moralist”. I do think is hard to see that kind of thing on TV, but these are frickin´ fictional characters, not real life. Stop overreacting this much, its not like this is the first rape we´ve seen in the series right?

  97. Andrew
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Fury and Oz are both probably putting their recaps together (unless Oz’s is already up or something), and FaB is on the road or something, so he’s not around. They’ll get around to it eventually.

  98. Sean C.
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    The staging of Sansa’s escape was godawful. No sense of the passage of time, no guards or obstacles, they’re like fifteen metres away when Cersei starts screaming. Makes escaping look easy, which is ridiculous. I haven’t seen a sequence that ineptly handled since Arya ran out of the Brotherhood’s cave in a hissy fit and tripped over the Hound like three seconds later.

  99. Turncloak
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Butterbumps,

    This is a fan website. That is why some fans of the show/books are upset

  100. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Queenofthorns,

    In the book she is worried that they might get caught, not that he might be raping her.

    I dunno, she says no no no and pushes him away. It shouldn’t matter why she doesn’t consent, just that she doesn’t…

  101. drivlikejehu
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is a much more consistent character than a lot of posters seem to believe, for whatever reason. He never shows an interest in violence and cruelty for its own sake. His evil acts directly or indirectly revolve around Cersei, whose affection is the only thing that really motivates him.

    It’s pretty reasonable to think he is not going to deal with rejection from her real well. Throwing that together with everything else he has gone through, and is going through… and the result is not nice to watch. But it is consistent and believable.

    Real change can only come when he breaks from Cersei. Whether readers and viewers understand this is besides the question of whether his character is developed well.

  102. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington:
    Greatjon of Slumber,

    It might be a case of me having a different reaction to the the scene on screen than on paper, I’m not sure. I find the book version pretty squicky already (much more so than many/most I think, so it doesn’t take much for it to cross the line ;)

    I guess I’ll see what I think on second viewing in a few minutes…

    I think maybe that’s where I fall as well. I found that scene in the book kind of creepy and worrisome, and never really felt at ease with the idea that it was entirely consensual. This pushes it a bit more, for sure, and I’m open to the idea from others that it’s rape outright, but the book scene communicates how much he was going to take what he wanted in the first place. Just me, though, and I can completely see other viewpoints on it.

  103. tdraicer
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    >Are people actually complimenting this crap?

    Yes, there are actually people who don’t view the world through your eyes. Amazing, isn’t it.

    >They DESTROYED Jaime’s character. Utterly, completely.

    Hmm, in a moment of grief, anger, and desperation he forces himself (without any actual violence) on the woman his entire life has revolved around in a forbidden, indeed potentially fatal relationship, a woman who has first cut him loose, then suddenly come on to him in the context of asking him to murder the brother he loves, and in the minds of some this is no different than the Mountain with the Viper’s sister. Okay then. For myself, the scene made perfect psychological sense for both of them; both his losing control and her inability to get into it next to her son’s dead body (which is where the scene as played in the book strikes me as psychologically false).

  104. Slayjoy
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    house snow,

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Wow. Chill.

    Obviously he was joking. Stop sending mods after people for joking or disagreeing with you. It makes you worse than them.

  105. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Here’s an interesting article regarding the Jaime/Cersei scene on AV Club:
    http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

    Very, very interesting indeed. Good find. Thx. At first I thought Cersei was holding Jaime’s good hand during their grotesque scene, but she is actually holding her dead son’s hand during the ordeal! Now, that is fucked up.

  106. House Nieder
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Tatters,

    There aren’t really any “good” people on the show or in the story. But I think Jaime recognizes over time that he is shitty and Cersei is poison to him. I think he recognizes his wrongdoings to some extent and tries to be better. It’s not about him being a good person.

  107. Kyrion
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Its Coldhands, they blatantly changed coldhands, but its definitely Coldhands. That one walker has been portrayed too many times for him to be just a white walker. He was reflected on the ice, and now he appears in episode 4, way too early for Bran to see a White Walker. He also travels with no snow around him, its blatant who he is. The reason they changed him from the masked Coldhands is obvious, they dont want it to be a question whether or not Coldhands is dead or not, or if Bran is working with the enemy, its more obvious where story is heading.

  108. Teresa Neves
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Ljam:
    Last week everyone praised Joffreys death despite he was a kid. Today everyone who cheers for Cersei being raped is flamed on by the “moralist”. I do think is hard to see that kind of thing on TV, but these are frickin´ fictional characters, not real life. Stop overreacting this much, its not like this is the first rape we´ve seen in the series right?

    Then call it what it is. I don’t care about Jaime’s story arc (though yes, this is problematic because Jaime has always stood strongly against rape), but the problem is that Alex Graves thinks this is not rape. It’s a cultural/society problem and it’s blatantly obvious.

    Them being fictional characters does not change the fact that the director’s comment was made by a real person who thinks a character who is turned on and keeps saying “this isn’t right” isn’t being raped.

  109. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Separately, I’d say I liked this episode pretty well, though I think it falls short of the previous two. Some great, really awesome moments of beauty and heartbreak here:

    –The Wildling attack is really, really, creepy stuff. I do wish Tormund had been imbued with more humor as he had been in the books. But it’s well set up. I’m still wondering why a village not far from the Wall has no snow though.

    –Tyrion’s good-bye to Pod is great.

    –And that’s Brian Fortune as Bowen Marsh with a line or two! Oooh.

    –”We are just over a hundred men. And that’s including stewards, builders…and me.” — Maester Aemon, we love you.

    –The Arya/Hound stuff is good but not essential.

    –Stannis/Davos was great, though, and also great to see Davos/Shireen interact again. Great stuff.

    –Tommen’s already a puppet. Where was Ser Pounce though? :)

    –Great entrance for Littlefinger, just coming in to swoop Sansa off her feet. Oh, he’s a charmer, our Mayor Carcetti. Yeesh.

    –This was a better episode for Daario. The way he winks at Daenarys before facing the champion, and kissing his blade before throwing it, the cloud of smoke and him again, glancing back at Dany. That was nicely played.

    Overall, this was a tough one- bouncing all over from story to story, which at times has to happen with this show. But still a very good episode.

  110. Shock Me
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Having watched the episode twice now, I have to say it is one of my favorites. It’s missing the word play of episode 1 and the satisfactory death of episode 2, but it is the closest to near perfect pacing I have seen in all four seasons (Sam and Gilly went about a minute too long, but the chicken plucking was awesome before it spun into Moletown. The next weakest scene was Arya and the hound because the dialog wasn’t as fun as Episode 1.)

    I loved the final Meereen scene both Daario’s quick economic kill and Daeny’s Speech and catapulting of broken slave collars. The show make’s Daeny about 300% more interesting to me. (Although she could really use a squadron of Dothraki Screamers on horseback.

  111. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Ljam:
    Last week everyone praised Joffreys death despite he was a kid. Today everyone who cheers for Cersei being raped is flamed on by the “moralist”. I do think is hard to see that kind of thing on TV, but these are frickin´ fictional characters, not real life. Stop overreacting this much, its not like this is the first rape we´ve seen in the series right?

    I wasn’t cheering Joffrey’s death. Both the show and the book gave me mixed emotions. First happy that a sadistic psychopathic king is killed, then discomfort with my happiness because he is still a kid and it’s never good to cheer for death. IRL I was also repulsed by people who went out in the street and cheered Osama Bin Laden’s death, despite the fact that the world is better off without him.

    When a villain is killed, there is some good that can come out of it. Joffrey can no longer torture and kill people and animals for fun. His death most likely saved lives. What good can ever come of rape?

    In real life, I oppose the death penalty. However, Westeros doesn’t have a remotely impartial criminal justice system so I can accept killing in GoT. There is often no other solution besides violence in Westeros.

    Rape as a punishment for immoral behavior is not something I can approve of. Not in real life. Not in fiction. It disturbs me that somebody can find rape, even fictional rape gratifying. That attitude most likely spills over into real life.

  112. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    And I forgot one thing – Missandei’s evident discomfort when she translates the Meereenese champion’s line: “He says you are a man who…hides his cock in his own asshole.”

  113. Thoros
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    in reference to the Jaime Cersei Alter Scene:

    http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-uncle-deadly

    Alex Graves discusses the scene.

  114. Polish
    Posted April 20, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Kyrion:
    Its Coldhands, they blatantly changed coldhands, but its definitely Coldhands. That one walker has been portrayed too many times for him to be just a white walker. He was reflected on the ice, and now he appears in episode 4, way too early for Bran to see a White Walker. He also travels with no snow around him, its blatant who he is. The reason they changed him from the masked Coldhands is obvious, they dont want it to be a question whether or not Coldhands is dead or not, or if Bran is working with the enemy, its more obvious where story is heading.

    IDK, it looked like it was just a vision of Bran’s to me

  115. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink
  116. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Slayjoy:
    house snow,

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Wow. Chill.

    Obviously he was joking. Stop sending mods after people for joking or disagreeing with you. It makes you worse than them.

    Joking about rape victims is completely unacceptable and not at all funny. Those comments were blatant rape apologia. One out of six women in the US have been the victim of rape (not sure about other countries). There may very well be several rape survivors reading this thread.

    I’m not terribly interested in protecting the “rights” of commenters who wish to be cruel and misogynistic.

    I am not, by the way calling on the mods to delete the posts of people who have no problem with how the scene was presented. Just the posts that contain rape apologia.

  117. Imnus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Are you seriously telling me that people felt that the Jaime/Cersei scene was rapey in the show, but they didn’t feel it was rapey in the book? WOW

  118. jwal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    tysnow,

    your view is warped, you probably think a husband can’t rape his wife

  119. Benjen
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Favourite line from this one was probably Davos.

    “Well if you’re a famous smuggler, you’re doing it wrong.”

  120. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    I saw the complains about Jaime and Cersei before watching the episode and I can say that people are overreacting it.
    Overall a really good episode. I felt like I wanted more from the ending though, they constantly end on cliff-hangers.
    Loved the mention of the golden company.

  121. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    On to a different topic, the Hound’s impatience at the guy’s prayers to the seven was hilarious.

    I’m an atheist, but culturally Christian so of course I had to sit through grace before my family’s Easter dinner. Of course, I would never talk to my grandmother the way the Hound did. It was just nice coming home to that bit of id release! I got to live vicariously.

  122. Ljam
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Rape is a terrible thing both in reality and fiction, but it happens anyways. The scene from the book was already unpleasant, but in my opinion was unrealistic (after all, Cersei didn´t care about Joffrey when Jaime arrived). In the show it felt much more grounded and with more sense, because all the pression Jaime is having right now. Does that make it right? Hell no! but it goes along with the overall tone of the show. I suppose I don´t have to make clear that this is not happy story where everything is beautiful and right. Things like these are going to keep happening. Its perfecly fine if you find it unpleasant, because it´s supposed to be like that, it´s those kind of stuff that set GoT apart from other fictions.

  123. Violentos
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Another great episode. A lot of changes from the book! I really loved the Tyrion and Podrick scene. They made him very loyal and helpful in the show. In the book Pod is sort of just a clumsy, slow-witted boy. When Tyrion asks him if he thinks he killed the king, Pod is silent.

    The fight with Daario (Strong Belwas in the book) and the champion of Mereen was much less epic than I thought it was going to be. Very short and to the point.

    Not sure how the Sam and Gilly scenario is going to work out. I forget what eventually happens to Gilly in the books, but in A Storm of Swords, Gilly and Sam don’t even come back to the wall until after the big battle. Moles Town is pillaged and burnt to the ground, so why does Sam leave Gilly there in the show?

  124. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    house snow:
    Man they are really starting to drop all these little nuggets all over the place. Also i guess we now know how ygritte is going to die

    Killed by the kid?

  125. Ismael Comics
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Gooderson:
    Holy moly everyone on the internet complains WAY too much.

    1.They may have unintentionally presented it more rape-y than they intended. Oh well, the episode already aired! Guess we have to keep on living our lives.

    2.Again, I don’t care if they change the books, I don’t care if Jaime gets “redeemed” – sorry!

    3.And people… Please. Jaime and Cersei aren’t real! Shocking, I know. If a fictional character has something bad happen to them — no injustice has been done in real life, I promise you. The internet is going absolutely INSANE over this. I really don’t know what to say. I don’t think you should rape people. Should fictional characters rape people? I don’t really have an opinion BECAUSE THEY DON’T F—ING EXIST!!!

    /deep breath

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

  126. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Could someone please tell me how the hell a one-handed man rapes a woman without holding a knife to her throat with his one good hand. No one screwed up. The script follows the book and the director worked out how a disabled man would perform a sex act while standing in a room. If you wanted to complain about the incident, you should have brought it up to the author who imagined the scene at the altar of the characters dead son in the first place. I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about the awkwardness of the act when it was done in the book.

  127. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    I have yet to read one unsullied not believe the sept scene was rape. For those that believed it was rape in the books, fine. I disagree, but even so, why exclude Cersei’s lines where she sounds willing? Had they kept her lines from the book, unsullied viewers would likely have a different opinion on the subject.

    Oh well, what’s done is done. There will be no working around that scene for unsullied viewers. And I’ll have trouble explaining why the character is so popular with fans of the books.

  128. Josh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    The internet is going crazy over this rape. I hope we don’t lose viewers :(

    I hope it doesn’t ruin Jaime’s character arc with fans, though let’s face it, [spoiler]he hasn’t really move to far forward since this point in the book. His scenes in book 4 and 5 are sort of going in circles in terms of character development…So I guess this gives them a bit more to work with both Cersei and Jaime[/spoiler]

  129. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Unsullied despise Cersei, they feel for Jaime im sure

  130. Zack
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    That rape was a bonehead move. Jesus. Not because I’m militantly against portrayals of rape in the media or anything. When it’s necessary for the narrative, include it.

    But you’ve completely fucked Jaime’s character needlessly. What a stupid choice. Was not rapey in the book at all.

    Anyway, that one blemish kind of ruined the episode for me, TBH, but there was a great Tywin/Tommen scene and then Oberyn’s sexytime and meetup with Tywin was also fantastic

    But Jesus Christ. Ugh.

  131. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Lord Of Lite,

    Uh … he is nearly a foot taller than her and vastly outweighs her and the character has been trained for battle since he was probably four?

    That’s how, you mouth-breathing idiot.

  132. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Wow. Okay – lots of things to discuss. Overall I thought that was a brilliant episode – went so quickly.
    Most of the scenes were brilliant -
    Daario vs champion and the catapults
    Tywin lecturing Tommen
    Tywin/ Oberyn (Have Oberyn and Ellaria taken up permanant residence in Littlefinger’s brothel? haha)
    Stannis/ Davos
    Davos/ Shireen
    Sam and Gilly were sweet but why hasn’t Jon told Sam there are wildlings south of the wall? Mole’s Town is hardly safe for Gilly.

    Now – the sept scene. I’m not quite sure what to think especially as Jaime is my favourite character. Now in the books this scene is pretty murky morally as Jaime is fueled by mad lust having been gone for so long and he is very forceful with Cersei. The show however seemed to make this a far more clear cut rape. I don’t think of Jaime as a rapist. I don’t buy him as a rapist. It was obviously done very purposefully what with him saying “I don’t care”.

    To me I am reserving judgement for now as there are 2 ways this could go. 1, it was done for shock value and to get people talking. That would be very disappointing and sloppy. Or 2 it could be used to inform and affect their story and relationship going forward. Jaime isn’t my favourite character because he’s such a swell guy, he’s my favourite character because he’s complicated and fucked up.

  133. John M W
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    In contrast to his other interview, this Q&A with Graves from The Hollywood Reporter seems to indicate that the scene was most definitely intended as rape:

    ‘Game of Thrones’ Director on Controversial Scene: Jaime ‘Traumatized,’ Cersei ‘a Wreck’ (Q&A) – Hollywood Reporter

    She’s a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go “he’s kidnapping her only boy,” because she’s not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like – you read the scene and go “Wait, who’s directing this?”

    …I’m never that excited about going to film forced sex. But the whole thing for me was about dead Joffrey lying there, watching the whole thing. (Showrunners) David (Benioff) and Dan (Weiss) loved that, and I was like, I wanted to make sure I had Jack in there as much as I could. Of course Lena and Nickola laughed every time I would say “You grab her by the hair, and Jack is right there,” or “you come around this way and Jack is right there.”

  134. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    The director says the scene was not meant as being a rape and that it was consensual at the end. They screwed up, plain and simple. It’s unfortunate that such a popular character was tarnished by a failure to properly convey what is happening.

  135. Roman Polanski
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Jaime will direct a few critically acclaimed movies and all will be forgiven. Trust me.

  136. Hexonx
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    tdraicer: Hmm, in a moment of grief, anger, and desperation he forces himself (without any actual violence) on the woman his entire life has revolved around in a forbidden, indeed potentially fatal relationship, a woman who has first cut him loose, then suddenly come on to him in the context of asking him to murder the brother he loves, and in the minds of some this is no different than the Mountain with the Viper’s sister. Okay then. For myself, the scene made perfect psychological sense for both of them; both his losing control and her inability to get into it next to her son’s dead body

    Strange that a series about gray characters would also have them commit gray acts right? I know it may be asking a lot of some people but I encourage everyone to watch the scene again. She does kiss him back at one point and embraces him. “This isn’t right” I think refers to the time and place more than the act. Should Jaime have stopped? Probably. I do think they intended for it to come across a little more consensual than it did. I don’t know if it was the direction or Lena’s acting but it’s clear from the reaction that it didn’t come across that way to a lot of people. It’s a shame really that this one scene seems to be overshadowing the rest of the episode though.

  137. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Imnus:
    Are you seriously telling me that people felt that the Jaime/Cersei scene was rapey in the show, but they didn’t feel it was rapey in the book? WOW

    The AV club review has a real good line on this too: We see that scene in the book entirely through Jaime’s eyes. How do we know Cersei didn’t feel she was being raped in ASOS? We saw a man taking what he wanted, consequences be damned. And it’s shot in a real stark fashion, too. If Graves thinks it was consensual ‘at the end’ well yes, I don’t see that, either – it felt like 3 percent consensual and like 97 percent rapey or such.

    And those who are invested in a straight-line “redemption arc” for Jaime kind of seem to forget that GRRM doesn’t do things that way.

  138. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    John M W,

    Ugh. Where is Cogman when you need him? I’d really like to know the thought process that went into taking away Cersei’s consent.

  139. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Josh:
    I hope it doesn’t ruin Jaime’s character arc with fans, though let’s face it, he hasn’t really move to far forward since this point in the book. His scenes in book 4 and 5 are sort of going in circles in terms of character development…So I guess this gives them a bit more to work with both Cersei and Jaime

    He has the curse of the Kingslayer!

    Just wait…..everyone will be cheering him on a few episodes from now when he gives Brienne Oathkeeper and sends her on her secret mission, then frees Tyrion, who ends up killing daddy dearest before escaping.

  140. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    The inside the episode with D&D plays a different tune I’ve read. I hear D&D outright say that Jaime forced himself on Cersei. I will have to check it out

  141. Ismael Comics
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    Ljam:
    Last week everyone praised Joffreys death despite he was a kid. Today everyone who cheers for Cersei being raped is flamed on by the “moralist”. I do think is hard to see that kind of thing on TV, but these are frickin´ fictional characters, not real life. Stop overreacting this much, its not like this is the first rape we´ve seen in the series right?

    Well said.

  142. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    I guess we’ll have to rewrite the reviews of the book and movie Gone With The Wind. Someone has to condemn the Rhett Butler character for raping Scarlett O’Hara.

  143. Anguissette1979
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Book reader here who had no problem with the sept scene as is (other than, you know, someone being raped)

    As someone else said, it was squicky in the books and it was squicky here.

  144. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Hexonx,

    The scene is a failure imo if they intended for the scene to be consensual which was anything but that. Alex Graves believes it was which I highly disagree with. I’ll watch inside the episode to see what happened

  145. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    Okay, then keep Cersei’s lines from the book and let people decide if it was rape. This was clearly rape and made Jaime look like a monster. The negative publicity is warranted and I hope we hear from the producers as to why they portrayed the scene that way.

  146. tysnow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    OMG, are you all still yapping about that non-rape, it’s Cersei for crying out loud, if she didn’t want to have sex, it wouldn’t happen. Jaime can read his sister look an open book. He knows her inside and out, she meant no (no as in not here) but not that she didn’t want to screw him. He didn’t care about the location though and if you notice in the end she gave in to him willingly.

    This reminds me of another recent scenario, replace Jaime for Jameis and there you have it. Not enough evidence to prosecute.

  147. Charles
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    i really didn’t enjoy this episode. i tried too, but lot of things felt…off. the whole sansa and little finger scene felt rushed. I think that was the theme of this episode to me, either too rushed, or otherwise entirely superfluous. I mean, Sam’s scenes with gilly were just nonesense, and took to much valuable space in the ep. one of my least favorite eps in the series ever. I didn’t like the direct confrontation between oberyn and twywin either, just didn’t feel like either book character too mee, and that’s something that usually doesn’t bother me, but today it just did. Same thing with the changeu-up in the tyrion scenes..Where’s Bronn? I hope that memorable scene from the books between them both does take place or else it would be a travesty to me. Tyrion also look to OK with being in jail, he hasn’t hit the low point he does in the books yet.

    Finally, i never noticed how much i don’t care for aiden gillen’s performance as little-finger until today. His delivery….just comes off as too Machiavellian.

  148. B
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    tdraicer,

    I get how it made sense for Cersei psychologically in the episode to react that way, but not for Jamie to be forcing himself on her. That seemed like a leap. It was just wrong for him to take that action. Why did he at that moment? It was prompted by her refusal to linger on a kiss while she is grieving? It was his response to her trying to play him to get what she wants out of him- To kill Tyrion? What? It just felt wrong.

  149. House Nieder
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    Roman Polanski,

    Woody Allen reference? Brilliant.

  150. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Anyone else here more upset by the bad feed on Xfiniti? Both the 9pm and 11pm airings for me had some massive video glitches.

  151. House Nieder
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    If you all could just go and read the most recent Graves interview, he notes the scene as a rape. That would save a lot of pointless rehashing of “The scene wasn’t intended as rape!” “The scene was!” banter.

  152. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    I think that’s actually a Roman Polanski reference, hence the username. Works for Woody as well.

  153. House Nieder
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    gewa76,

    really though, I thought it was just me. So so frustrating.

  154. Mike
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    I think it’s too soon to say that Jaime’s character has been irreparably harmed by that scene. This episode purposefully showed us several characters – all of whom the viewer had been led to sympathize with – doing some less than honorable things:

    1) It’s revealed that Dontos was not helping Sansa purely as thanks for saving his life.

    2) Ygritte brutally slays innocent Northmen.

    3) Jaime’s scene with Cersei. Yes, this was a major derivation from how this scene was portrayed in the books – but I think most people are angry about that fact only. A theme of this episode was clearly that every character in this world has a darker, colder side – let’s wait and see how the show handles the fallout from this scene before making a judgment on Jaime’s character development or whether the depiction of rape (or sexual assault at the very least) was handled in an approprIate, meaningful manner.

  155. TheBerylfly
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    People saying that the book scene was rapey – yeah, it was forceful (as was all Jaime and Cersei’s foreplay we’ve seen) but by the end Cersei had been enthusiastically screaming for Jaime to do her.
    People saying people complain about fictional characters beeing character assasinated while there are starving kids in Africa strike me as ones of those who cannot take any critiquе for the show and will come up with ANY excuse.

    Yeah, I understand that I am commenting on one scene out of pretty solid and intense episode, but I am honestly not sure where I stand with this show after that

  156. Thoros
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Ljam:
    Last week everyone praised Joffreys death despite he was a kid. Today everyone who cheers for Cersei being raped is flamed on by the “moralist”. I do think is hard to see that kind of thing on TV, but these are frickin´ fictional characters, not real life. Stop overreacting this much, its not like this is the first rape we´ve seen in the series right?

    Ismael Comics: Well said.

    Please remember that this topic is very controversial and that people have different opinions than you. Real life or not, Rape is a serious topic to be discussing. Saying that it was well deserved or she had it coming is utterly sick. You wouldn’t wish it on anyone in real life, why does it make it ok to do in the fictional sense?

  157. House Nieder
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    gewa76,

    Hahaha I didn’t even notice the Roman Polinksi part.

  158. John M W
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Has any interviewer ever inquired to Aiden Gillen about his accent change starting in S2? I liked his line delivery so much more in S1.

  159. Andrew O'Hara
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:53 am | Permalink
  160. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Again another adapted episode of GoT by D&D floors me with their outstanding alterations…
    The Tywin/Tommen scene was just so Solomonly awesome and so too was Tywin/Oberyn, absolutely brilliant.

    I rather enjoyed your episode summary for the most part. I loved how the “Sodom & Gomorrah” Oberyn/Ellaria scene morphed into a “diplomatic” scene with Oberyn/Tywin. Once again, they cram in a lot of exposition and tension in RV’s scenes.

    Go team Shireen!

  161. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Another comment from an unsullied on the previously.tv thread:

    “Well, whatever goodwill Jaime got from me during his incarceration and adventure with Brienne is now gone. What the hell, Jaime? I take back everything I said about him being inherently good.”

    Worst scene in the entire series so far. IMO.

  162. Charles M
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    What people want from Jaime is the to do the cliche Darth Vader villain to hero turn. I bloody HATE that cliche. You see it so many times and it never makes any damn sense.

    I like that there’s a slow progression with his character. And the only way you can show a “slow progression” is by showing him making mistakes. What he did to Cersei is not rape, it’s in his character. That’s the kind of family they are. It’s not like Cersei is a saint or anything.

    Why didn’t anyone criticise Tyrion from abusing a child when he hit Joffrey? Isn’t child abuse worse than rape of an adult woman?

  163. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    I agree. The rape sense is Jamie refusing to let cersei go. He literally has to force her to have sex with him because she is over it. I think the anger over the rape is misplaced.

  164. Ashley
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Im having so much trouble with the site particular the mobile version. I can’t even read spoilers or switch back to a desktop version. Am I alone in my struggle? :-(

  165. jwal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Charles M,

    yeah, he’s a rapist, great character!

  166. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Oh yes, Graves definitely calls the scene “rape” in this Hollywood Reporter interview. So that settles that.

    And I honestly cannot understand bringing up things like Tyrion slapping Joffrey in the discussion of a rape scene. Apples and oranges, people.

  167. Mike
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Charles M,

    I think that it was definitely depicted as rape, but I agree that what most people are upset about is that 1) Jaime didn’t do that in the book, and/or 2) they want Jaime to be this squeaky-clean good guy now.

    Tonight, the show pointedly reminded us that this is the same man who shoved a kid out the window in episode 1, and I appreciate that they are keeping his character morally ambiguous. Jaime’s relationship with Cersei is different than that with Brienne, and I could understand (though certainly not condone) how he could save Brienne from a sexual assault yet force himself on Cersei

  168. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Teresa Neves,

    I understand the sensitivity to the subject but 1) that scene is supposed to be a representation of there EXTREMELY f#$&@! Up relationship 2) it was clear to me she didn’t try to stop him, and 3) all of you crucifying Alex graves for this scene have obviously watched season one with dany and drogo’s “consummation” and continued watching the show (and that THERE was clearly more graphic and clear cut). None of you tuned in for family programming and watching the scene again as I have, will show that it was a lot more consensual than it seemed on the first watch. I understand the character arc argument, although I disagree, but that at least is a valid argument.

    On another note, that’s totally coldhands next episode I refuse to give up hope.

  169. AnneMarie Bowman
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    Another excellent Episode. The writers are knocking it out of the park this year. A LOT of forward progression with the story. Some really excellent dialog. 3 great episodes in a row. I have no problems with this season whatsoever.

    Favorite bits tonight:

    Tyrion/Pod
    Stanis and Davos
    Sansa escaping/Littlefinger reveal
    Dany/Meereen
    Tywin

  170. Andrew O'Hara
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Thoros,

    So wait a minute… Cersei in reality may well be the most evil character on the show. Was Joffrey a horrible little bastard? Yes, but who raised him to be that way? Cersei, on the other hand… Let’s run down just a few of the things she’s done that may lead someone to believe that yes, she deserved something horrible to happen to her. In particular, throughout the series, Cersei has tormented and emotionally destroyed Sansa. She has been doing her best to see that Shae is hanged. She had Ros beaten. She attempted to have Bran Stark murdered. Oh, and let’s not forget leading Joffrey to have all the bastard children of King Robert murdered… you know, killing babies. Killing babies we can deal with, but an implied rape of a deeply evil person and people get all squeamish. Not only that, but as “rape scenes” go, this was mild. I mean, for the Gods’ sakes… there are people debating as to whether or not it was even a rape (it was). Of all the horrible, evil, and completely messed up things to happen on this show, I can’t believe this is the one that has people up in arms.

  171. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    tysnow:
    OMG, are you all still yapping about that non-rape, it’s Cersei for crying out loud, if she didn’t want to have sex, it wouldn’t happen. Jaime can read his sister look an open book. He knows her inside and out, she meant no (no as in not here) but not that she didn’t want to screw him. He didn’t care about the location though and if you notice in the end she gave in to him willingly.

    This reminds me of another recent scenario, replace Jaime for Jameis and there you have it. Not enough evidence to prosecute.

    What are you talking about? In AFFC Cersei remembers all the times Robert raped her.

  172. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    AGAIN, I refer you to dany and drogos wedding night… Much worse and much more uncomfortable. So what are really upset about?

    Mike,

    I think you hit it right on the head. Book readers who’d rather be cynical about the adaptation. Most pass judgement on it already assuming it’s horrible. And before you throw stones, I’ve read every word of the asoiaf series, novellas and sample chapters more than twice. I adore the story, but LOVE the show and its adaptation of it. And I’m excited to know they can surprise me with a story I’ve basically memorized.

  173. Charles M
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    All it shows is how screwed up this family really is. It’s not like Jaime went out and kidnapped some innocent person. Having a fight with a sibling is vastly different than having a fight with some stranger in a bar or whatever. I think it’s a little insulting to real rape victims to even call that rape.

    And Cersei has committed her own crimes as well. How about this; killing Joffrey is okay and something to celebrate, but not punishing Cersei?

  174. MattyB
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    I don’t have a problem with the rape scene. It makes sense (in terms of the show).
    Jaime has been separated from her for a year or so, and he comes back (before Joffery is dead), and she refuses him (for weeks apparently). It gives more reason for Jaime to be aggressive (more than in the book), as he feels he finally deserves it.

    The rape kind of reminds me of the scene from Once Upon a Time in America.

    Also, (for some reason) I find it more weird for 2 people to have consensual sex in front of a corpse, than someone getting raped in front of a corpse.

  175. mal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Some thoughts:

    I really liked that last scene in this episode. One of my favorite episode ender-scenes. I think I like it because it’s not about any of our main characters exactly, it’s a nameless slave realizing his oppression and the dawning thought that they can take the power away from the slavers, really powerful.

    was it me or the writing between Oberyn and Ellaria not so good?, “call me when you need me…lover” ugh. maybe it was just the delivery (love Indira Varma, btw).

    Tommen!

    WTF! Jaime rapes Cersei…D & D better have a good payoff for this (character wise or something meaningful) I’m not sure how to express it…I mean… Payoff is not the word though, maybe “implication”. I don’t think the “payoff” will justify this scene though

    Based on the Season 4 trailer, I think Tyrion/ Dinklage is gonna break our hearts (with what he goes through emotionally)

  176. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Andrew O’Hara:
    Thoros,

    So wait a minute… Cersei in reality may well be the most evil character on the show. Was Joffrey a horrible little bastard? Yes, but who raised him to be that way? Cersei, on the other hand… Let’s run down just a few of the things she’s done that may lead someone to believe that yes, she deserved something horrible to happen to her. In particular, throughout the series, Cersei has tormented and emotionally destroyed Sansa. She has been doing her best to see that Shae is hanged. She had Ros beaten. She attempted to have Bran Stark murdered. Oh, and let’s not forget leading Joffrey to have all the bastard children of King Robert murdered… you know, killing babies. Killing babies we can deal with, but an implied rape of a deeply evil person and people get all squeamish. Not only that, but as “rape scenes” go, this was mild. I mean, for the Gods’ sakes… there are people debating as to whether or not it was even a rape (it was). Of all the horrible, evil, and completely messed up things to happen on this show, I can’t believe this is the one that has people up in arms.

    It’s harmful to say that a fictional person deserves to be punished with rape because it’s something people say about rape victims in real life. People frequently trot out some version of “she was asking for it.” Prison rape jokes are completely socially acceptable.

    When someone says Cersei deserves to be raped because she’s done immoral things, they are just feeding into a culture that says a woman deserves rape because she’s drunk or her skirt was too short.

    There is a culture of victim blaming surrounding rape. Until that changes, it’s never OK to express glee at the thought of a person, even a fictional one being raped.

  177. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Isn’t it interesting that all the people coming out defending an uncharacteristic and non-book rape are all names I’ve NEVER seen post here before?

    Hiding on alts, are you?
    Or just trolls sneaking in to start trouble?

  178. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Oh for F#$& sake she wasn’t raped! Re-watch the Damn scene, she was grabbing on the sheet hanging off the table not trying to stop him. The only thing she protested was the locale. She was crying cuz she was already crying. I don’t approve of a rape scene in anything but this wasn’t one.

  179. Lord Stannis's Soul
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    All sorts of people suggesting that it ‘became consensual’ along the way (like it was in the book), or that her motivation in the book (she didn’t want to get caught, as if this isn’t the motivation in the show) rather than being a full-on rape. I’m sorry. Rape is rape. Sometimes the victim of rape goes along with it after it has begun. Doesn’t make it any less rape. How is this different, really, than the book?

    Jaime rapes her in the book. He rapes her on the show. You’re talking degrees, as if it makes a difference.

  180. tdraicer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Watching the scene again only confirms for me that Alyssa Rosenburg’s analysis is off the mark, projecting onto Jamie a thought process no way in evidence. It isn’t about doing the worst thing he can think of to hurt her, it is about his own need overwhelming any other considerations. I’m certainly not defending his actions as right, anymore than “the things I do for love” justified shoving Bran out that window, but unless you think Jamie incapable of losing control, how does his action “assassinate” his character?

    But I remember a similar uproar when Spike attempted to rape Buffy in BTVS, so it appears there are people for whom murder is a forgivable character flaw but rape is not.

  181. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Ljam:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Rape is a terrible thing both in reality and fiction, but it happens anyways. The scene from the book was already unpleasant, but in my opinion was unrealistic (after all, Cersei didn´t care about Joffrey when Jaime arrived). In the show it felt much more grounded and with more sense, because all the pression Jaime is having right now. Does that make it right? Hell no! but it goes along with the overall tone of the show. I suppose I don´t have to make clear that this is not happy story where everything is beautiful and right. Things like these are going to keep happening. Its perfecly fine if you find it unpleasant, because it´s supposed to be like that, it´s those kind of stuff that set GoT apart from other fictions.

    My problem is not with violent and disturbing things happening in a show. Obviously I would not be a fan of GoT if I wanted to be watching something sweet and sappy.

    My only issue here is with commenters expressing joy about a woman being raped.

    Reading comprehension is your friend!

  182. Thoros
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Andrew O’Hara,

    I understand your point of view. However we are not talking about those events. I believe they deserve conversation but what happened tonight surprised and hurt a lot of people. Hear me out.

    I think it is inhumane the things she has done to many people. We hate her for it. I would not however ever wish for even my deepest enemies, people that have deeply hurt me, have something like rape happen to them.

    As far as getting all squeamish and this being the tipping point, for my friend, who hasn’t read the books, he asked me if that scene was even necessary. For them it was unnecessary. Unnecessary non plot moving rape scenes look distasteful and thus the lashing out of Unsullied. For our book readers we know in the book it goes down differently, However the show made it worse than what we remember. Thus the lashing out of the book readers.

    I’m not trying to compare this to anything else that has happened in the show. I’m just saying that the scene itself to any audience is awkward, weird, and not very well directed. Obviously the message of that scene has been missed and I believe that Alex Graves could give us a better understanding of the choices.

  183. HODOR is the new Shakespeare
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    zaprowsdower:
    Why is Missandei still translating?

    IIRC, in Mereen they speak a bastardized form of high Valyrian, which I assume Dany is not fluent in. However, she speaks to Mereen in Valyrian and they seem to understand. So I think Missandei was translating only for the benefit of us tv viewers… Before we would be subjected to 2 mins worth of subtitles.

  184. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who did not even think of rape during the Sept scene? Of all the scenes, that was perhaps the least memorable to me and those watching with me.

    1) These are fictional characters and the show does not share the canon of the books. Get over the differences.

    2) Calling it rape is factually inaccurate. Rape requires forced sexual intercourse, which we did not witness.

    3) It is unreasonable to expect or assume that everyone at all times in all places (including fictional settings) have the exact same notions of consent that we do, so assuming that Jaime “should have known” is not only an absurd assumption, it is an unjustified one under any circumstance.

    With that said, this was a truly excellent episode. The dialog and acting in these latest two episodes are some of the best in the entire series. GoT continues to improve.

  185. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    LordVega:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Oh for F#$& sake she wasn’t raped! Re-watch the Damn scene, she was grabbing on the sheet hanging off the table not trying to stop him. The only thing she protested was the locale. She was crying cuz she was already crying. I don’t approve of a rape scene in anything but this wasn’t one.

    The reason for not giving consent is irrelevant. If a person does not consent, it is rape. You really need to educate yourself about this topic. The ignorance you’re displaying is staggering.

  186. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    LordVega,

    Drogo was a mindless barbarian who openly rapes and pillages. Hardly comparable to Jaime. Again, for those who think it was rape in the books, fine, but why not keep Cersei’s lines? Jaime came across as a monster with his “I don’t care” line. I hope D&D are grilled over this decision. At least help us understand the decision and why they excluded the quotes from Cersei that were in the book.

  187. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    KG,

    Interesting that I’m a daily visitor (more like hourly) to this site and usually quite enjoy the discussions. In this case I feel like a weekly joy of mine was hijacked by misunderstanding and ruining my experience so I jumped in. And I HAVE commented in quite a few articles when I’m not busy but trolls like you only notice when there’s controversy.

    Side note, off like to thank WICNET for the new mobile platform. I used to not comment often cuz most of what I had to say contained spoilers and I used to not be able to comment because of that.

  188. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    John M W:
    Has any interviewer ever inquired to Aiden Gillen about his accent change starting in S2? I liked his line delivery so much more in S1.

    I have wondered this as well. Does the voice sound like that because of his huge scar down littlefinger’s torso or is it just bad acting?

  189. Juice
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    D&D know exactly what they are doing. They aren’t “assassinating” anything, they are doing their own show with their own version of every character.

    Was this a big change from the books? Of course, and I don’t care. Let’s see how they deal with it first, shall we?

    Great episode, IMO.

  190. Jessica Grange
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    When people are in a state of severe emotional distress, they often do things that are completely out of character.

    Jaime had lost his hand and fighting ability, been rejected by Cersei, and his son had died in front of him.

    He had been repressing all his rage and pain from all those incidents, and was finally pushed over the edge when faced with his dead child and unloving sister.

    Therefore, I can accept the rape scene, because it’s his out-of-character messed-up emotions exploding to the surface.

    He’ll probably apologise next week.

  191. mal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    BTR,

    It was forced, she fought it, she said “no”. You’re views on this matter are truly scarier and more horrible than anything that happened in this episode. The point is SHE HAD NO POWER IN THAT MOMENT! Is it because she didn’t scream? what if she did scream? who would she call out for? what would she say? that her brother is raping her? what is the outcome? to reinforce all those rumors of incest? Just because a child doesn’t fight or scream when a molester comes into their room, it’s not rape?

  192. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Cerseislittlehelper,

    He sounds like Bane.

  193. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I can appreciate that concern. While I don’t agree (mainly because I didn’t see it as a rape) I can understand why you would take issue with that. My comment was more for those blasting the show runners for the scene on moral ground, and I meant no offense in either case.

  194. Polish
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Littlefinger to Sansa about Joffery: “The king who tormented you for years…” … ok, exactly how much time has transpired from the start. Do we just not know and are cool with that? I’m fine with that, I guess

  195. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    LordVega,

    Troll? I’m not the one saying rape is ok. Troll.

  196. HODOR is the new Shakespeare
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Andrew O’Hara:
    Thoros,

    … Oh, and let’s not forget leading Joffrey to have all the bastard children of King Robert murdered… you know, killing babies. Killing babies we can deal with, but an implied rape of a deeply evil person and people get all squeamish. Not only that, but as “rape scenes” go, this was mild. I mean, for the Gods’ sakes… there are people debating as to whether or not it was even a rape (it was). Of all the horrible, evil, and completely messed up things to happen on this show, I can’t believe this is the one that has people up in arms.

    The reason people are up in arms about this rape scene is because it’s one of the few elements of this series that the audience can or has been personally affected by. We can all cheer for an evil king to get poisoned and die at his wedding precisely because none of us has lived under an evil king who was poisoned and killed at his own wedding. The killing of bastard babies, who among us has had to live through that? Those things, to the modern Anerican viewer, are distant things found only in old stories. But the rape of a woman, this happens every day in our world, it is not something that the mind can “keep in the show” since it is so real to us, as a horrid part of modern life. Truthfully, I would be more concerned if more people didn’t get offended/angered/made uncomfortable by this scene. It hits so close to home.

  197. TheBerylfly
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Wait till in the next episodes Jaime starts bithcing about how Cersei doesn’t want to be together anymore.
    Or better yet, wait till the show awkwardly has her admit she liked it, expecting viewers to believe it

  198. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    mal,

    You did not actually respond to any of my points, which are numbered for the respondent’s convenience, so I am unable to really address anything you said since it does not relate to anything I said.

    If you are asking whether her initial “no” means that Jaime raped her, as I said, rape is a word to which we attribute a particular semantic value. As the postmodernists have correctly established, it does not have any ontological nature. Did we witness rape? Since there was no sex, no. Did we witness sexual assault? Perhaps, if we define sexual assault as persisting despite an explicit objection. But that does not mean that our definition is particularly useful.

  199. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m more educated on this topic than you know. I’m a father of a victim, but your turning a discussion about a show into a moral or social issue and I don’t think it belongs here.

  200. Mike
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Thoros:
    Andrew O’Hara,

    I understand your point of view. However we are not talking about those events. I believe they deserve conversation but what happened tonight surprised and hurt a lot of people. Hear me out.

    I think it is inhumane the things she has done to many people. We hate her for it. I would not however ever wish for even my deepest enemies, people that have deeply hurt me, have something like rape happen to them.

    As far as getting all squeamish and this being the tipping point, for my friend, who hasn’t read the books, he asked me if thatscene was even necessary. For them it was unnecessary. Unnecessary non plot moving rape scenes look distasteful and thus the lashing out of Unsullied. For our book readers we know in the book it goes down differently, However the show made it worse than what we remember. Thus the lashing out of the book readers.

    I’m not trying to compare this to anything else that has happened in the show. I’m just saying that the scene itself to any audience is awkward, weird, and not very well directed. Obviously the message of that scene has been missed and I believe that Alex Graves could give usa better understanding of the choices.

    Whether or not the scene was “necessary” is yet to be determined. Remember that D&D constantly say they are making an 80-hour movie, and while that was the last scene involving Jaime and Cersie this episode, it doesn’t mean the implications of it aren’t coming. Now, if the writers and producers don’t make mention of the rape ever again, then I would say it was needlessly graphic and detrimental to Jaime’s character. On the other hand, the TV show is not the same as the book, and if they chose to make the scene less ambiguous and display its effect on Jaime and Cersei’s characters and their evolving relationship, then it doesn’t bother me that they deviated from the book.

    I guess the point I’ve been trying to make over several posts is that we can’t call it a “misstep” until we see how it all plays out down the line.

  201. The Eighth God
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    Jessica Grange:
    When people are in a state of severe emotional distress, they often do things that are completely out of character.


    Jaime had lost his hand and fighting ability, been rejected by Cersei, and his son had died in front of him.

    He had been repressing all his rage and pain from all those incidents, and was finally pushed over the edge when faced with his dead child and unloving sister.

    Therefore, I can accept the rape scene, because it’s his out-of-character messed-up emotions exploding to the surface.

    He’ll probably apologise next week.

    I was going to type a long piece, but this sums my own thoughts up perfectly.

  202. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    KG,

    And I did? No, I said the scene didn’t present itself that way to me. And you’ve got nothing better to do than stir some s#&$@. Nice contribution.

  203. mal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Juice,

    I agree that we should wait and see…but it better be good. But I doubt it, though, they’ll probably just move on. Sad

  204. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    Nice Re-Cap , Fury. I agree with the assessment of Dontos’ storyline being a weak link overall, but it did serve well to illustrate Littlefinger’s point. I think newbies will register that mainly, if nothing for his nebulous return. No doubt Baelish’s men disposed of his body before shipping off.
    As for Cersei at the Sept with Jaime, there is no doubt in my mind that the show runners want the audience to accept a softer if more emotional side to the duchess. Tyrion did get it right that she loves her children and no doubt experienced true tears of loss, for a moment. Being the vengeful person that she is, her mind was already at work, alongside Tywin’s, with ways to mold her youngest son,Tommen. There was no objection at Tywin escorting him out, during his funeral-history quiz. At least Jaime called her a “cold bitch “. The forced sex came as a surprise , to me, but I suppose it gives reason for her upcoming behaviour ….. . Perhaps too, she should have responded with ” not here “, instead of ” it’s not right “. That would have been more believable…..maybe.

    I really enjoyed the seamless transition of Podrick, in place of ser Kevan , and last week Bronn, stepping in for ser Illyn. I don’t know if Bronn moves forward as Pod does, though ( no Lollys ).
    Another like was lord Tywin’s lesson in historical impacts with kingship, and keeping one’s enemies close, during his talk with Oberyn. It looks as if Dorne gets a seat on the Small Council after all.
    Say what you will about Danerys Targaryeon, I think she has moxxy ( I ‘m not quite sure I know the meaning of that word but I like it ! ). The introduction to the kingdom of Meereen sits strong by me. So glad the Men of Castle Black are no longer in denial about what’s to come, and the return of the Scooby Gang. Rast will get his just desserts, soon.

    What I didn’t like was the portrayal of Oberyn and Ellaria as sex crazed Dornish, which somehow speaks for the citizens of Dorne as well. ” There are thousands of us….. Sand bastards, etc “. Hopefully this will be rectified once Doran or Dorne is considered for season 5.
    The barbarian men from the Thenns, bear no resemblance to the men of the books. Since I’m along for the ride it may come to some fruition during later episodes.

    Sandor and Arya are keeping me properly entertained And the Fire Sale on Leather Neck Collars was just the thing I needed. ( :

  205. Mikken's Mark
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Strictly Lords, Hear Me! absolutely no ladies I am not speaking to you,

    Do you consider yourself true men of honor? Why sit here venting our frustration, while this royal blemish continues to seep through the bound pages we cherish ever so dearly? It is time to ACT

    Let us ride on the ‘morrow to HBO Headquarters, stage our complaints, demand for parlay with D&D so that they can be brought to justice. My Lords, rally around me, Mikken’s Mark and I promise you, Season 4 Episode 3 “Breaker of Chains” will be re-shooted…..will be re-aired……will be exactly the same, with the exception of the blunder at the Sept…..and will be distributed for FREE!!

    RIDE my lords, RIDE!!!

    Mikken’s Mark
    (M)

  206. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    LordVega:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m more educated on this topic than you know. I’m a father of a victim, but your turning a discussion about a show into a moral or social issue and I don’t think it belongs here.

    I’m very sorry to hear that and I hope he/she is doing OK. It doesn’t change the fact that it is rape when a person doesn’t consent. Also, as has been stated upthread it was referred to as a rape by D&D on the inside the episode feature. It is a moral issue when a person excuses rape. I don’t care where I see rape culture, it will always be called out by me. My morals won’t allow me to let these things pass.

  207. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    D&D… I’m trying, I’m really trying to cope with the different vision… but it’s always the same thing changed…

    What’s with the women – sex slaves and rape? in the books Dany consents to Drogo – let’s cut that out, because rape makes it more dramatic. Cercei consents to Jaime – na… let’s make that clear cut rape too, because.. you know… women deserve it. I’m the LEAST women’s lib chick on the planet… but I’ve finally reached the point of WTF!

    The Littlefinger Dance Party Whorehouse and the Ramsey bitches and the Molestown whores are excessive enough – yes, whores exist and they have boobs and NO you’re not going to show equal male nudity because that would be fair, fine – think I got the memo by now. It’s mostly funny… haha…beewbs… hell, I thought the Pod stuff was a ton of funny.

    But in this version of Westeros – either you’re selling it or you’re going to get it whether you like it or not. Unless you’re the actual whore – then you don’t have sex on screen, fall in love with your client and refuse jewels and riches because THAT’S realistic. I think Pretty Women may be more realistic than what they’ve done with Shae.

    I am telling myself that there’s a reason for the character alterations, other than two men who think so very little of women, they have to make Westeros even worse for them, and make it better for the men. But what happened to Dany in season 1 – I still don’t see the point of that…so… D&D I suddenly don’t wish I could afford that charity visit to the set of season 5…

  208. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    The Eighth God,

    Oh! Well if he says he’s sorry, that’ll fix it up.

    O_O

  209. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    I hadn’t been referring to you with my comment, but you’re the one who is making this into a confrontation.

    LordVega:
    KG,

    And I did? No, I said the scene didn’t present itself that way to me. And you’ve got nothing better to do than stir some s#&$@. Nice contribution.

  210. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    You’re very correct, it was a forced sex/ rape scene, definitely not a heat of passion scene. Jaime ripped her small clothes off, said he didn’t care in response to Cersei’s ” it’s not right “. I’m sorry, but I cannot believe this to be a wise depiction of Cersei Lannister.

  211. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    I think most of those commenting here are extremely limited by their intellectual provincialism: it seems inconceivable to their narrow minds that an author, director, etc. would be able to see beyond the rigid and generally unsupported beliefs espoused by hoi polloi (vel multes, si lingua Graecia nimis arcana est) and choose to write about a fundamentally different mindset or fundamentally different morals.

    i.e. It is unclear why there need even be a justification or explanation for the scene that allegedly includes rape.

  212. mal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    BTR,

    Your “definition” of rape is what I took issue with. Just because it does not fit your perceived and stated definition, doesn’t mean it wasn’t. And yes, there was intercourse, you see him push into her 3 times; Just because you did not see his penis push into her vagina, did it not happen, you condescending prick?

    BTW you’d make a great defense lawyer, I’m sure your rapist will get off on semantics.

  213. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Peter- the -muthafucker-Baelish, has returned to stir more intrigue into the soup. Love it !

  214. HODOR is the new Shakespeare
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Ashley:
    Im having so much trouble with the site particular the mobile version. I can’t even read spoilers or switch back to a desktop version. Am I alone in my struggle? :-(

    For what it’s worth- I’m on an iphone4. Spoilers do not work for me with safari but they do work with chrome.

  215. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    mal:
    Juice,
    I agree that we should wait and see…but it better be good. But I doubt it, though, they’ll probably just move on. Sad

    Unfortunately, remorse and forgiveness are not extremely high on the list of obvious character traits in GoT.

  216. jwal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    KG,

    of course it will, silly. Maybe he’ll give her flowers

  217. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    mal,

    My definition of rape requires sexual intercourse, which was not shown.

    “Just because it does not fit your perceived and stated definition, doesn’t mean it wasn’t.”

    Because “rape” is only significant only insofar as we assign meaning to it, your statement is absolutely meaningless. Vague definitions permit hijacking of terms by intellectually flabby extremists. Of course, I am sure we mutually wish to avoid this, so it is in our collective interest to define rape and any other hot-button term.

    “And yes, there was intercourse, you see him push into her 3 times; Just because you did not see his penis push into her vagina, did not not happen? You condescending prick”

    How do you know his penis went into her vagina? Just because he thrust against her does not mean that sexual intercourse (=penetration, in case that term is too vague) occurred.

    “BTW you’d make a great defense lawyer, I’m sure your rapist will get off on semantics.”

    I am glad that our legal system protects our citizens from irrational witch-hunts like the one going on right now.

  218. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    HODOR is the new Shakespeare,

    not me. I just find it incredulous given the two people involved, and the flip side of what occurred in the books.

  219. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Look, I meant no offense. While I disagree with your interpretation of the scene and my interpretation differs I respect your opinion and apologize if I offended you or anyone else for that matter. I just saw it differently that’s all. We all read these books our own way and understand these characters our own way and I was probably wrong for coming at you the way I did. I just love this site and usually love reading these comments and there was a lot in the episode that I wanted to see other readers takes on and it turned into a one scene discussion.

  220. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    BTR:
    mal,

    My definition of rape requires sexual intercourse, which was not shown.

    “Just because it does not fit your perceived and stated definition, doesn’t mean it wasn’t.”

    Because “rape” is only significant only insofar as we assign meaning to it, your statement is absolutely meaningless.Vague definitions permit hijacking of terms by intellectually flabby extremists.Of course, I am sure we mutually wish to avoid this, so it is in our collective interest to define rape and any other hot-button term.

    “And yes, there was intercourse, you see him push into her 3 times; Just because you did not see his penis push into her vagina, did not not happen? You condescending prick”

    How do you know his penis went into her vagina?Dry humping exists, in case you did not know. =/

    “BTW you’d make a great defense lawyer, I’m sure your rapist will get off on semantics.”

    I am glad that our legal system protects our citizens from irrational witch-hunts like the one going on right now.

    Scroll up and look at Fury’s edit, genius.

  221. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Fury’s edit is irrelevant, genius. This would be obvious if you understood anything I was posting.

  222. Macdaley
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    I’m not down with this being “rape”. But from Jamie’s point of view, he finally gets back to Cersei and all he gets is venom and rejection. Perhaps, if Cersei was serious she should not have kissed him to begin with. However she did. And it got a bit messy. BUT, this is a fictional story and a fairly realistic one at that. Isn’t this why we all love GRRM? There is no clear hero or villan. In RL I have experience with rape in my family. Not cool. And I am all for those committing it to be castrated. But that’s enough about that.

    I am very pleased with this episode. I’m interested to see how Tyrion’s arc plays out and whether we will see what I hope to see this season. I really wish my work life could fly by as fast as one hour does in HBO land.

  223. LordVega
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    KG,

    It was my name you responded to. If it wasn’t directed at me, my bad.

  224. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I liked that scene with Shireen and Davos, too. I didn’t catch whom the letter was being penned to/for, but I knew it was a sound idea. I suppose we’ll see Tycho soon.

  225. MX
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    I’m a woman, and yet I didn’t mind the rape scene at all.

    I find it amusing that throughout three seasons we’ve had Jaime supporters say that he is wonderful because he went from being “black” to being “grey” as a character. Then they whine because he is not “white” (aka, all good). Guess what? Being grey means that he is more thoughtful, but he still does good as well as bad things.

    Jaime and Cersei had been enjoying themselves without any thought of other people. Now that Jaime understands that she does not love him without his sword hand, and that she prefers hatred and lies even to power, their dynamic changes, and their love is transformed into something grotesque. The violence which started with Bran being pushed out of the window has now come back full circle to them; it has penetrated even the intimacy of their love-making.

    Of course, I would like Jaime to be fully enamored with Brienne, so I do have a hidden agenda. His defense of Tyrion will be good enough for me to redeem him as a character.

    As for Tyrion, I don’t see why his arc shouldn’t be as in the book, although the show’s Shae is indeed a lot more likable and I enjoy seeing her face and hearing her accent.

  226. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    I find it funny how people are losing their shit over a scene based on what they expected to see, and then worrying that this breaks a male character they perceived as becoming more noble and already righteous.

    The same man who pushed a kid out of a window. But hey, he was becoming a better man so this ruins him.

    But so few seem to have any concern for the woman he supposedly raped. Meaning your concerns are all about the rapist.

    In any event, I amend my previous outlook. I don’t think we are meant to think he raped her. I think we are meant to be troubled by what he did, wondering whether it is rape or not. And then, in the next episode, they’ll have Cersei define it from her point of view, something that never happens in the book.

    So, if he raped her, we’ll likely know next week. And if he didn’t, then I imagine we’ll know next week. Until then, start your sympathy for Cersei groups. She needs you.

  227. jwally
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    BTR,

    Uh, are you saying they didn’t have sex, that it wasn’t rape? I’m sorry, speak in laymens terms please BTR. Thanks

  228. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Bless you for typing this *>*

  229. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    jwally,

    Yes. That is why sexual assault is distinguished from rape in both a legal and general sense.

  230. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    wow… that’s……… so ……. inappropriate And funny at the same time. Side hurts as I laugh…….. LMAO

  231. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    Probably the biggest misstep the show has taken thus far. Fundamentally alters Jaime’s character for the worse. BookJaime would never do that as depicted. Ever. I couldn’t enjoy a second of the episode after that. Completely changed the tenor of the episode.

    The scene in the books is graphic and uncomfortable enough as is. Jaime isn’t a paragon of justice. People who say that this is within his character though are wildly mistaken. There is a great deal of difference between concern that someone may be whitewashed and depicting them as a rapist. Just really awful (and no, nothing D&D can do will justify it. He will always have raped her and it will always be awful).

  232. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie:
    Probably the biggest misstep the show has taken thus far. Fundamentally alters Jaime’s character for the worse.BookJaime would never do that as depicted.Ever. I couldn’t enjoy a second of the episode after that.Completely changed the tenor of the episode.

    The scene in the books is graphic and uncomfortable enough as is. Jaime isn’t a paragon of justice.People who say that this is within his character though are wildly mistaken.There is a great deal of difference between concern that someone may be whitewashed and depicting them as a rapist. Just really awful (and no, nothing D&D can do will justify it.He will always have raped her and it will always be awful).

    How do you know it changes the character for the worse? Have you seen the next 7 episodes? The next 37 episodes? How about we decide what it does to his character when we see how it affects things?

    What am I saying? I’m a fool to think people won’t dive head first into overreaction on a fan site.

    In other news, the rest of the episode was amazing. Hey, remember that time…

  233. jwally
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:31 am | Permalink

    BTR,

    ok. that’s interesting, because I read it as they had sex, if not in the scene then moments later. If so, some questions: what was Jaime’s intent then? What happens in the next few moments after we cut away? If there was sex, I think it would be interesting if Cersei treats it as a rape and Jaime doesn’t. Where do we go from there? What was the point if they didn’t have sex? Will you answer these questions? Will I read them? :)

  234. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Because it makes Jaime a rapist? That’s not something the next seven episodes will change and it destroys a part of his character. You don’t rebuild that.

  235. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:36 am | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    I don’t think people are saying it makes Jaime’s character worse, or better. It’s not TRUE to the established character, show character, book character – any character. Even in the show – the ONLY redeeming thing about Jaime is his love for his sister – and if it’s crappy direction or whatever – we just saw a scene that establishes his character loves Cersei about as much as Robert did. I don’t care about the idea of a rape scene, or his arc, or whatever… but the WHY of what happened is just so bloody frustrating…

    This is the FIRST serious issue I’ve had with the show.

  236. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie,

    I agree with this. It takes a monster to rape someone. If anyone can honestly say that Jaime comes off as a true monster in the books, then we simply must disagree. And no, what he did to Bran does not compare to rape. What he did to Bran was aweful, but can be justified. He chose the life of Cersei and her children over a boy he didn’t know. Forgivable? Probably not, but one can understand the decision.

  237. gianoshoes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie:

    There is a great deal of difference between concern that someone may be whitewashed and depicting them as a rapist. Just really awful (and no, nothing D&D can do will justify it.He will always have raped her and it will always be awful).

    So true, I think this is the main reason it broke my heart that they did this change. He went into it out of anger, pent up rage and lust. I predict a lot of “Crime of passion” comments, which is sad.

  238. JP Dayne
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    I didn’t really care about dontos in order to make an impact.
    He’s just a tool for LF to shine, and they pulled it off big time.
    My only nitpick is also jaime being a rapist.
    wtf, first him killing his cousing and now this?
    fuck this shit

  239. Lin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    Wow, some concerning reactions on this site. To those who thought it wasn’t rape, or that it wasn’t clear, or it “didn’t seem like rape to them,” if a woman being pinned to the floor by a much heavier man, crying, and protesting (she said some variation of “stop,” or “stop it,” 6 times by my count and not just at the beginning—not that that matters—and “it’s not right” at least 3 times), and struggling against him the entire time… what the hell DO you define as rape?

    Also, no, Cersei kissing him does not imply consent for anything further than that one kiss. Jesus.

    Not to mention the fact that the director has been literally quoted as saying “then Jaime comes in and he rapes her.” You shouldn’t even need the director’s explicit confirmation. It should be obvious to anyone who understands what consent is. /rant

  240. Deekan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    If you think the writers changed the scene to be more “rapey” by accident or because “F*** it! Why the hell not!” and that it will not be addressed in future episodes, I believe you’d be wrong. It has been changed for a reason that hasn’t been explained yet. So why don’t we just wait and see where they are taking this, before completely losing our sh*t?

    Oh right…this is the internet. I forgot.

  241. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:45 am | Permalink

    I had a problem with him murdering Alton. I didn’t think that was quite consistent with his character either, but I can at least see that as something he would potentially do given the dire situation.

    However this isn’t about nitpicking, or not trusting D&D. This isn’t a thing where we can look at a change and say “well maybe they’ll do something more interesting with it.” This is a brutal and fundamental character change and one that isn’t remedied by simply saying let’s look at the rest of the season first.

    Jaime raped Cersei. If you think that’s an interesting character diversion, more power to you. I find it wholly inconsistent with what we know about Jaime and it helps destroy the image of one of my favorite fictional characters, so forgive me if I am troubled that ShowJaime is a rapist.

  242. MX
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    …and just as an afterthought (since I can’t do edit), it would have been nice to see more people defending the girls whom Theon was treating roughly before he was emasculated. Why is there more sympathy for Cersei than for Ros, for instance?

    I think that those who are disappointed with the scene like to think that the love between Jaime and Cersei was pure. In reality, there was always an element of violence, which we see even in the first love-making.

    Another way to read the scene, then, is that this is both the old Jaime, who knew that Cersei liked kinky games, and the new Jaime, who has to lose all of his old certainties, including the love they once shared.

    Tyrion Pimpslap, I find your reasoning more than disturbing. Unlike most people here, I’ve experienced both war (as a civilian) and sexual violence, and I can tell you: while rape leaves traces which take years to heal (as does real incest), there is no question that killing someone is worse than raping someone. I mean, come on!

    It just confirms to me that a lot of people secretly enjoy seeing Jaime and Cersei as a “supercouple” and fantasizing about them, while in real life incest, between two people who grew up together, always contains an element of violence, from the start.

  243. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    …such a waste of time to argue such a small point that both the dictionary and Ours is the Fury has made clear, from her review. And no, Jaime lovers, he was not ” redeemed ” or perfect or dreamy as Nicolau Coster-Waldau. However he was growing as an individual, with many more lessons to learn. As Martin wrote of his character, about this juncture, he was still very much in love with Cersei, and she welcomed his affection in the sept. I would also venture to say that Jaime had been given some insights prior to arriving at Kings Landing, and while he would have entertained having forced himself on a woman ( of course he was smitten with his sister ), in the past, it would give him pause to ever consider the thought of it again. Although no real tragedy, the scene really makes Cersei seem odd. Her character is depicted as soft at the least expected moment, onscreen. Unlike jaime, her insights have been rare or few. Perhaps the writers wish to use the resulting moments of the Sept scene to increase Cersei’s ire towards jaime, in future episodes.

    ” She’s been fucking ser Osmund and Lancel and Moon Boy, for all I know…… “

  244. Bannerless Bro
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:50 am | Permalink

    “Next episode, Grey Worm rapes Missandei with a spear, Sam rapes Gilly in front of her baby, Pod rapes a whole brothel and we make more gay sex jokes with Loras, the funny degenerate.”

    Seriously, what do this fucking people have in their minds.

  245. gianoshoes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Deekan,

    I think the fear, for me at least, is that what happens next doesn’t justify it. I agree we should finish the season before judging though. But I think for many people, as JaimeNotJaime wrote, “…he will always have raped her and it will always be awful”

  246. Lex
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:52 am | Permalink

    Overall, I thought this was an incredible episode. In some ways, my favourite so far.

    The Jaime thing was definitely a bummer, though, and my friends seemed pretty fixated on it. Unfortunate, because besides that misstep I thought it was a near perfect episode.

    I loved Tywin/Tommen, Tyrion, the Wildling attack, Sansa/Littlefinger, Meereen, etc. Great performances from the whole cast.

  247. Zychotous
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:53 am | Permalink

    In regards to septa scene. I think the writers know exactly what they are doing. That scenes plays out the same way in the books except for that fact that the show cuts away before it shows cersei enjoying it. By cutting away before that moment leaves it wide open for controversy and ambiguity.

  248. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:55 am | Permalink

    Deekan,

    I think D&D does have their reasons. And there will be explanations. And they won’t work or be actually appropriate to the character. I think as far as rape and women, they just consistently don’t seem to be able to get it right…

  249. gianoshoes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie,

    I didn’t like the Alton killing either, but in episode 1 Two Swords, Jaime makes a distinction when he says he “murdered” people to get back to Cersei. He used the word “murdered” and not “killed”, as I think he might when talking of war and combat, which is interesting. Not an excuse, just interesting from a character perspective.
    But where does he go from here? Ugh, every time he smiles or makes a quip now will be a stab in the gut for me. Interesting also that someone above mentioned how what if Cersei views it as rape and Jaime doesn’t.

  250. BTR
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    jwally,

    All that matters to me is the claim that we witnessed a rape. No intercourse, no rape. Perhaps there was an implied rape, but that is something different.

  251. Bannerless Bro
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Tommen and Tywin were great! I actually loved to see grampa Tywin back, it makes him a more believable character than book Tywin. A shame the showrunners decided to literally rape that scene a few seconds later. Other than that and the normal dump the showrunners take on Stannis, it was a nearly flawless episode.
    Also, what the fuck with that “kiss means not rape”, that’s as bullcrap as it gets.

  252. Bannerless Bro
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:05 am | Permalink

    Zychotous,

    Really? It began like rape but then she liked it? What is this, a victorian erotic novel?

  253. Deekan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane,

    Since getting in an argument would be a fruitless endeavor for anyone involved at this point, lets just agree to disagree.

  254. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I cannot agree with this….. rape is a monstrous crime, yes, but not all men who go this route are monsters. If that were so we would have no men worth redeeming or even part of our lives at all. It doesn’t take a “monster ” to enact this crime, which occurs more frequently than our so called ” normal” men would admit. And no, all men aren’t monsters, so let’s not go there. I love my men, they are the counterbalance to women, and appreciated for all talents that they excel and offer humanity. Where would we be without men, and where would men be without women ? I’d hate to imagine that. For those men among us that demonstrate a pattern of brutality towards women, I’ll send over a Thenn or two, to offer a lesson in neutering, or have Varys do the honours. The rest of you can relax, read a good book or go play Rugby.

  255. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:12 am | Permalink

    As a Jaime fan, I don’t know how I can look at him the same way in the show ever again. To do that to the one person he loved is unspeakable. I am an ardent defender of D&D and the show, but for the first time ever, the joy of watching an episode turned to ashes after “that scene”, as Bryan Cogman called it on twitter. I realize this is fictional, but you develop an interest in these characters. You spend countless hours reading about them and watching them on TV. It is sad that I will find it tough to enjoy my favorite character from here on out. I really hope it doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show, as it did for this episode. D&D fucked up, and I’m not going to give them the benefit of doubt on this. Nothing that happens in the future will change the fact that Jaime is a raper in the show.

  256. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Geekfurious is the only one to speak sense apparently…geez I can’t stand reading this shit. Westeros is better right now

  257. Andy Gavin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    While this episode isn’t as exciting as last week’s, it does what it needs to do, moving each of a dozen or so threads forward in the wake of the changes. But it sports some fine work from Tywin, Tyrion, Arya, and one of those resounding Valyrian speeches. As always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  258. Andrew O'Hara
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    Maybe this will make people feel better. http://imgur.com/gallery/vXUunWc/new

  259. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:26 am | Permalink

    Aidan Gillen continues his trend of getting worse each season. He will be in full Dark Knight mode by next season.

  260. Howland Reed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:26 am | Permalink

    Gooderson,

    Alas, I am forced to question your mental faculties since you are suggesting that representation is irrelevant altogether and no ethical concerns can be raised about it. I wonder, do you enjoy ‘blackface’ performances and think that the Washington Redskins have an aptly named mascot? Because those characters are not real either you know. And by your logic no offense can be taken from such representations because they are fictional. But this of course holds no water since representation shapes reality and attitudes in real life and vise versa. It’s why, you know, Art is important and not some thing you smirk at by treating your fellow audience members like children who lack the capacity to distinguish between fantasy and reality, as if the two have no relation to each other.

    Don’t take a chill pill – reexamine your life!

  261. Dan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    Who the heck is Orys I (Tywin and Tommen dialogue)??? I don’t see such king mentioned anywhere in the books.

  262. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    First change that was really awful, and most of the time here I try my best to whack the book purists. Can’t see how anybody can defend this change to be honest.

  263. Jim Cross
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    I feel it’s pretty clear that right at the end Cersei pulls Jaime forward….

  264. loco73
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    Well I see that people managed to get their panties in a bunch over something…but whatever…

    I have always enjoyed the ASOIF novels as a whole, while clearly each novel has its own imprint. Yet, though I might be in the minority here, I for one have always enjoyed the storytelling that came after the Red Wedding a lot more! The Red Wedding was a watershed event in the whole saga, but personally I found that after the Red Wedding the narrative of the story was somehow freed in many ways. There was something palpable and exciting about that.

    Much to my enjoyment and surprise, it seems as if the series has also picked up on that…and it shows! I don’t know how to put it, but I found the episodes extra enjoyable, if that is the proper way to say it…it’s as if a new ingredient was added to the whole formula.

    Maybe its just me feeling that way, but whatever it is I hope it continues for the rest of the season!

  265. Hexonx
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Guys, we are missing the most important reveal. Davos almost got his head chopped off by Syrio Forel!

  266. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure we will be seeing rape at Craster’s Keep next week. The show has always tended to shy away from the sexual violence in the books but they couldn’t have picked a worse episode to bring that part of the story into show now following all this controversy over the Jamie Cersei scene.

  267. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:39 am | Permalink

    If you think this has a happy ending you really haven’t been paying attention

    Keep that in mind people

  268. Ozymandias
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    Drama Queens everywhere :)

  269. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    This was quite a good episode, but not as good as the first 2. The material was excellent but some of it (especially in King’s Landing) tended to overstay its welcome. The re-introduction of Petyr was handled well, though the chilling atmosphere was a little over the top.

    The scenes at Dragonstone were brilliant for not only mentioning the Golden Company, but for having a more effective way of re-introducing the Iron Bank than what we got last year. Arya & Sandor provided some much needed comic relief and the final 8-10 minutes with Dany managed to pack in quite alot of action, even if it failed to reach the heights of the Dracarys theme it was set to.

    Next week, Bryan Cogman’s helming the episode though, so if it’s anything like his last effort it should be pretty amazing.

  270. Dan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    ok, after a couple of minutes of consideration… I think they made up Orys I (who kinda fits Viserys II – one-year regency) to avoid confusion with Dany’s brother.

  271. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Not sure about the Jaime-Cersei scene. It comes across as much rapier than the book scene.

    However, I thought that everything else was brilliant. Dany’s speech at the end was spectacular, and the firing of the collars over the walls was perfect. Michiel Huisman won me over to his Daario, even though the first episode of this season left me underwhelmed and missing Ed Skrein’s swagger.

    Sansa and Littlefinger were excellent. Her reaction to Dontos’s death was just what it should have been. The scene formed an interesting parallel with Arya’s reaction to the Hound’s mistreatment of their smallfolk hosts (enjoy your guestright curse, Sandor, even if your breach was nowhere near Frey’s).

    Tyrion and Pod’s interactions were touching. Tywin’s speech to Tommen was great, but I loved Tommen’s part in the conversation too. His suggestions of what was most important for a king are all naive, but the sweetest, most innocent one comes first (holiness), then slightly less innocent (justice), and a bit less innocent again (strength). Very good scene.

    I liked that they made Shireen the one who sparked the idea of the Iron Bank for Davos. :)

    Also thought that the way that they handled Jon’s reaction to the wildling atrocity, and then contrasted it with his reasons for going after the mutineers, was great writing.

    Ultimately, even if I’m not sure how to feel about the Jaime-Cersei element (even with it being rapier, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the wrong dramatic choice; I’ll wait and see), I think this was a great, solid episode.

  272. The Kingslayer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:05 am | Permalink

    fuck you D&D! that was really bad move from you. first Jaime kills his cousin now this. i’m really disappointed.
    and i don’t even want to talk about Stannis..

  273. Amanda M
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    Are there any other Sullied fans out there NOT looking forward to Oz’s recap this week? :-/ Usually I love them, but I think it will be too painful to see Oz and the others revert to their Jaime-hate (and be powerless to help defend the character by mentioning the book… Darn spoiler rules! Can’t we make an exception for “Jaime isn’t actually a rapist in the books”? Doesn’t “spoil” anything, makes the situation slightly better! (I’m joking of course — I’ll end up banned if I try to defend Jaime, I’m sure haha)

  274. armsbendback
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    Taking the whole scope of the books and the show into mind, I think it’s important to look at personal history of Jaime and Cersei from birth till their present moment in the story and be willing to consider that in their particular instance, their may be some grey area. They have been loving and manipulating each other since their early days. They have a bond deeper than almost anyone else could relate too. They’ve been sharing their beds and bodies with each other for almost 40 years. They have straddled the line and excitement of “not here, not now” for decades while concealing their love from family, from their kids, from society, from Robert.

    It doesn’t make what Jaime does in the books are as portrayed on the show “right” or “appropriate” in any way. But I also don’t find it inconsistent with their characters and circumstance.

    I’m also not a big believer in the Jaime “redemption” arc. I mean, maybe in his own mind he has come to peace with certain things he did in his past, but I really don’t enjoy the fanbase “Jamie’s redemption” chant. Nothing he does to help Brienne or to begin to reject his Lannister-ness changes what he did(or failed at doing) to Bran.

    So to me, I almost see a selfishness with a few people who see to be upset more than anything because now they feel they can’t “root” for Jamie anymore like they had begun to over the course of season 2 and 3. If anything, it’s a reminder of the past wrongs he has done and of the brutalness of the world they live in.

    Before anyone suggests it, I did not enjoy the sept scene except as a small piece of the tapestry that tells the tale of this world, this time, and these characters. Nor do I believe what I said above is an attempt to justify his actions in that scene. And I’m certainly not trying to tell anyone else how to feel about it. Just offering my own thoughts. I think in part to my above feelings about the totality of the Jaime/Cersei relationship, I actually cringed more when the Wildings slaughter the village in front of the little boy and the sudden moment when Daario flings the knife into the horses head. Not making any moral relativism with those three scenes, just my gut reaction from the visuals was the most strong in the latter two.

    Episode as a whole, I loved it. So far, season 4 seems a definite cut above 2 and 3. Which is not to say it’s without flaw, both in execution and adaptation, but it feels to me as good or better than its ever been and with so many amazing events still to come

  275. sCor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Not sure what all the confusion about that rape scene is. It was rape in the books too, you should read out how it starts. Cersei is totally against it in the books. Just because she says “Yes” at the end of the scene, doesn’t change the fact, that Jaime went ahead with it despite her not wanting to.

  276. iridium
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    I find it difficult to understand how anyone could think the Sept scene was anything other than rape. The petty arguments over the nature of her non-consent (“she was only saying no to the location!”) and whether there was visual confirmation of…fuck I can’t even bring myself to address that, it’s so trolly and bizarre to even argue. It was rape, and really the only thing left to decide is how you feel about it as a viewer/book reader/Jaime fan. Personally, I didn’t feel it was that out of place for his character: take a sexually frustrated man with a history of violence, and add in a recent life-changing injury that’s made him question his masculinity and the meaning of his life in general, and this is what may happen. Not that it’s excusable; not at all. But I don’t think it’s a stretch for the character. Remember that asshole who pushed a 10 year old kid out a window? Yeah, same guy. I actually find Jaime fascinating, and his pov is certainly one of my favourites to read. But I think this was a well-timed insight into a soul that is not spotless. Last season felt a little too clean to me.

    As for the rest of the episode, I thought it was fantastic. I particularly loved Tywin’s speech to Tommen, and the way it echoed in later scenes with other potential leaders: Stannis, realising through his trusted advisor Davos that devotion to the Red God won’t win him the war; Jon Snow reluctantly advising the Watch against the pursuit of justice; and Dany, who, rather than needlessly expend the strength of her army against Meereen, makes the smarter choice of inciting civil unrest instead. The symmetry was lovely.

  277. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    That episode had fantastic elements. They are getting really good with the pacing. Arya and the Hound scenes moved well, and any scene involving Tywin is as always, masterfully played.

    I am not down with the rape scene though. This was pretty disturbing. It’s been awhile since I read that scene, but I never looked back at it as rapey in the books. I believe book-Cersei’s consent has been posted in many places upthread, so to anybody claiming that it is not a significant deviation from the book need only go back and read. I will be cracking the book open tomorrow to reread the whole chapter, and make sure that I am not totally overreacting here… but I really don’t remember this, and am feeling pretty bummed by the deviation.

    There are many ways to “grey up” Jaime’s redemption arc- Full on sept rape was of poor taste and totally useless, IMO.

  278. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    All you dumb book purists know Jamie raped Cersei next to a dead body in the books and no one cared about that. Now the show has the same exact scene except it is a different dead body and everyone loses their minds.

  279. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    I’m no purist, not at all, and I found it offensive.

    I also know that it’s spelled Jaime, not Jamie. At least try to get the names right if you’re going off on a rant.

    Ser Pounce:
    All you dumb book purists know Jamie raped Cersei next to a dead body in the books and no one cared about that. Now the show has the same exact scene except it is a different dead body and everyone loses their minds.

  280. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    Honestly, the sept scene makes *some* sense I guess considering the shit Jaime has been put through since he got back…. If Im being honest, I think they changed Cersei’s reaction more than Jaime’s actual actions..

    But still, I wish they hadn’t done it. It just opens up a huge can of worms and is gonna make the entire asoiaf community really unpleasant for a long time. And it almost makes me want to forget what was a really incredible episode.

  281. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:57 am | Permalink

    KG,

    I found it really rapey and creepy in the books because Jaime raped his sister next to a dead person who was really close to them. what I’m trying to say is it was both rape in the books and in the show and no one is even admitting to that. Call it character assassination or whatever but the scene was really faithful to the source material pal.

  282. noodle
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:57 am | Permalink

    some people are just mad their fantasy of Jaime, blonde, tall, white, dreamy, handsome, soiled knight who will redeem himself thru redemption!!!, Jaime, has been ‘destroyed’. poor damaged Jaime! I know you want to feel sorry for him and see him fixed into the Good Man you knoooooow he is inside, but….

    The rape scene was probably the most disgusting thing I’ve had to watch in the entire series. it’s 100% consistent with his character. and yes, I am a long time book reader, long before it was being considered by HBO. you think marital rape isn’t real? you think husbands who rape their wives think of themselves as rapists? they’re just taking what’s owed to them. that’s all.

    Cersei tells him to kill Tyrion for her, he kinda sorta says no, she kisses him–”kill him and I’ll let you” when he goes on, she clearly pushes him away–”do what I told you to do first”, essentially. he gets angry. pushes it. “I’m here to take advantage of, I mean comfort you! in your time of need….with my penis.” he does love her. and she does love him. right? she’s still grieving for her son. she is not in a stable emotional state. but she’ll do what she (thinks she) needs to do to keep her and remaining children safe. yeah Jaime like, loves their brother or whatever, but he’ll do it for the same reason he’s always done as she asked/ordered him to her entire life, basically. so she kinda sorta lets him. because if she does, he’s totally gonna kill their brother later, right? because pussy power! amirite?

    Cersei is a very damaged woman. if you were a woman living in a world where the only real power you had is your sexuality, you would be too. the only real power she welds is through males. Jaime is a very damaged man who loves, or thinks he loves (I cannot bring myself to believe that what they share can be called love. you might think differently. I also dislike how the director calls rape “forced sex”, also, so I dunno, there you go.) his own sister. they’re both fucked up. they went through fucked up things, and they’re doing fucked up things. the writers of this episode know what they are doing.

    not a fan of the comment on why didn’t Cersei fight back, or however did Jaime The Heroic Cripple overpower her???. that doesn’t matter. she said no. when he heard her say no, that’s when he should’ve stopped. why the fuck does she need to fight? is her verbalizing that she doesn’t want him to stick his dick in her not clear enough of a message?

    y’all had a fantasy romance novel book cover view of Jaime and this episode put you back on the ground. it does not contradict the book character at all.

  283. Del
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    Fantastic episode.

    I also don’t see any “character assassination”. The scene in the book also came off as rapey, but tempered by the fact that we read the entire scene from Jaime’s point of view.

  284. noodle
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    I will also say that I find the discussion on whether it was rape or not, and whether she enjoyed it or not, absolutely disgusting.

    1)it was rape. she said no.

    2) many rape victims experience sexual arousal even to orgasm. this does not make it not-rape.

    you know what child rapists, child molesters, marital rapists, statutory rapists say. “the child/s/he enjoyed it too.”

  285. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    I gather the rape scene (and it’s indeed a worry that some can’t see that that’s what it was) would have bothered me more if I was book reader, because in watching the show I tend to assume that I’m in safe hands, and that a scene like that will be there to serve a justifiable narrative purpose. So I’m troubled that those who know what’s coming don’t seem to think so. The show has done so well out of shocking its audience that I fear it’s succumbing to the temptation to do so nihilistically. Ned’s execution and the Red Wedding weren’t just shocking in the sense of being gruesome spectacles – they turned the tables on the plot as well. The same can’t be said for the murder of Ros last season, Ramsay’s hunting expedition last week or, I gather, Jaime raping his sister next to her son’s corpse in this episode.

    Which is a shame, because otherwise I’d have no hesitation in proclaiming this the best season so far. It was at the top of its game yet again in this episode – typically great dialogue from Tywin; another terrific episode in the Arya and the Hound roadshow; Sam and Gilly affecting as always; and an adequate Daenerys sequence, which is as high as my hopes usually get for her part of the story.

    The only other thing I didn’t like was the Wildlings’ sack of Hobbiton. We’d heard very powerfully a few scenes earlier about the rape and plunder being visited upon the smallfolk of war-torn Westeros. Now we were presented with a cloyingly cosy rural idyll and given about five seconds to familiarise ourselves with it before an onslaught of savage barbarian Untermenschen came along to eat the little boy’s mother and father. Further evidence, I fear, of the show’s need for a lighter touch.

  286. David Hamburger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:17 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Actually, she is NOT holding Joffrey’s hand. I just rewatched the scene after reading that. His hands are crossed across his chest the whole time. And during all of the action, Cersei isn’t near enough to hold his hand unless it was hanging down, which it clearly is not. You can see both of her hands in much of the scenes. I’m guessing that the writer confused her grabbing at whatever you would call the altar’s tablecloth with Joffrey’s hand at the end of the scene somehow.

    I’m not sure what I think of the TV scene. But it’s clear to me that in both versions, she said no — multiple times. Which makes it rape in any current court of law, and hopefully in most of our minds. Whether she kissed him first or eventually went along with it doesn’t change that in either case. It’s not at all clear in the books if Cersei eventually gets seduced by him or just plays along to end the assault more quickly. But it doesn’t ultimately matter. Even if her only objections were that they might get caught (and it’s pretty clear that those aren’t her only objections), it’s still her body and those are still her objections. No means no.

    He forces himself on her.
    She says no.
    He continues.
    That’s rape.
    PERIOD.
    No matter what other factors are there that may sway our feelings about it in either version, it is still undoubtedly rape.
    It happens in both versions.

    I was uncomfortable with the scene in the books, and am even more uncomfortable with it in the show. But I don’t see how it essentially changes or “ruins” the character. I think the reader is more likely to give Jaime some slack in the book because he has just arrived and hasn’t seen her in a very long time, whereas in the show she’s been refusing his advances for quite some time. But that doesn’t excuse his actions. He still commits rape in both versions.

  287. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    noodle,

    Well some of us are just trying to argue against the people who cry about the character assassination or however they put it. Go pick up a feast for crows and I think Jaimes second chapter during another one of their family members funeral he forces himself on to Cersei next to a dead body. I’m pretty sure that was rape so the show didn’t just come up with that scene out of thin air to ruin the character.

  288. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:21 am | Permalink

    And I loved the bit about Davos and the Iron Bank of Braavos. It’s very satisfying when an egg laid in earlier series hatches like that.

  289. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xphOwknDgrs

    COLDHANDS might be appearing next episode… i’m not joking! look at the last shot from this teaser!

  290. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    The Purist,

    You should change your username to the toolist. Get it because you are a tool eheh.

  291. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:30 am | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    It’s really quick… but i’ve got a decent screen cap, but i can’t post photos in the comments

  292. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    noodle,

    I will also say that I find the discussion on whether it was rape or not, and whether she enjoyed it or not, absolutely disgusting.
    1)it was rape. she said no.

    Why isn’t it considered rape in the books then? She says no in the books but Jaime keeps going and then she eventually says yes. When you think about it, this scene isn’t as much of a change as people are making it out to be. All they had to do was extend the scene a bit and add a “yes” from Cersei and it would have been very much in tone with the books. “Jaime would never do that!” Then why didn’t Jaime stop in the books when she said first said no?

  293. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    That is a White Walker, the same one people thought was Coldhands in a trailer from a month ago. Coldhands is cut, I know it sucks but people need to let it go.

  294. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    Excellent episode, though people need to get over the Jaime/ Cersei scene. D&D know what they’re doing, don’t cry over spilled milk

  295. amd
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    So, this is what actually happened:

    Jaime manhandles her throughout, physically forcing Cersei throughout the scene. Cersei says “Jaime not here please. Please.” She says “Stop it” three times and “stop” another twice plus some possible stops that are not quite spoken. Cersei says “it’s not right” three times.

    He rips her dress, pins her to the floor and ends the rape on top of her, having dragged her to the floor and holding her down The scene ends as he continues to rape her, with her pinned underneath him nearly weeping and saying “Don’t” under her breath.

    Of course, it was not a rape scene in the book. Turning Jaime into a flat out rapist was a bizarre choice. The one thing we always knew about him was that he loved his sister and hated rape. He was prepared to kill for Cersei and was prepared to put himself in danger to save Brie from rape. And now that character no longer exists, since anybody who can rape a traumatised and grief stricken women next to her son’s corpse very clearly does not love them.

    The director’s little rape scene fetish has pretty much killed this character. As well as being a disturbing and abnormal choice to add yet another rape scene where none existed, it was idiotic so far as the character was concerned.

  296. Carne
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:49 am | Permalink

    Did anyone else notice that Ian McElhinney was not credited for this episode, even though he clearly appeared and even spoke. Must have been a mistake.

  297. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    Eh, frankly, I don’t see what’s so horrible about the Jaime/Cersei scene. Yes, it was rape. No, it didn’t destroy anything (that wasn’t already on its way to destruction).

    Jaime had been getting incredibly frustrated with Cersei for not wanting him anymore, for not taking him back into her life, for letting things change. This was a way of him venting that frustration. It’s one more nail in the coffin of their relationship. It doesn’t destroy Jaime’s character development – ffs, he’s not developing into a great guy who doesn’t do bad things anymore, anyone who thinks that is delusional. He’s a complex character who does bad things and good things, makes bad decisions and good decisions. Clearly this was a bad decision and a bad thing to do, but that’s what makes him a complex character.

    (And I’m sure there’s an outrage simply because it’s rape, but as much as I abhor rape I think it’s ridiculous that some people think it shouldn’t be depicted ever, or that rapists should be portrayed only as clear-cut villains and never ever as complex characters.)

  298. Oh_Man
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Maybe the whole rape thing is just to further justify Cersie and Jamie’s relationship issues down the road…

  299. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    Oh_Man: Maybe the whole rape thing is just to further justify Cersie and Jamie’s relationship issues down the road…

    Yes, that’s what I was saying above. This was to show that their relationship is beyond repair.

  300. Daniel
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    Well as to whether it was rape in the books:
    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now.”
    So sort of, but not really.

    And for those that are arguing it’s not a big deal… Well, if you knew that someone was a rapist, would that not change your opinion of them?

  301. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    The dialogue in all the scenes was so good this week, I really enjoyed the episode.

  302. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Roman Polanski,

    Jaime will direct a few critically acclaimed movies and all will be forgiven. Trust me.

    Brian Singer disagrees

  303. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Leto II,

    Yes, it sure looked like rape and even though Cersei is a hideous witch and I hope she gets all she deserves in the end, nobody is deserving of rape. I never caved in and started to like Jaime even though Brienne is awesome. But I don’t like Jaime as a character at all. He was responsible for Ned Stark’s terrible injury that left him limping and he pushed Bran out of the window intending to kill him. His seeming turnaround in the Riverlands with Brienne notwithstanding (I think he learned a lot from her) the man is still an unlikeable character, imo and this rape certainly demonstrates this.

  304. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Daniel,

    If you knew that someone threw a little boy out of a window, tried to kill a helpless child protect the secret that he’s having sex with his own sister who also happens to be married to his lord the king – wouldn’t that not change your opinion on them?

    Jaime is getting sympathetic as the story goes on, because we learn more about him, and also because of the things that happen to him that affect his personality; but that doesn’t mean that suddenly he’s a hero who is above doing bad things to people.

  305. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    having looked at the scene in the book, its clear that, if you were only to show the first half of that sequence, it could definitely look like rape, it describes her pounding on his chest with her fists, so those signs are at least as clear if not clearer than in the show.
    I have no idea why if they wanted to make it consensual they didnt include the second half of the scene which makes it look like it, even if they didnt want to, they should have shown some clear signs that it was consensual.
    In my opinion, the writers decide what happens in a show, so if they say that it was consensual by the end (which evidence from the book also suggests) then it was. However, frankly this was terribly communicated by the show. My biggest worry is that the majority of unsullied will not realise its not rape, and ruin a lot of the character development that has gone into Jamie.
    That aside, it was another strong episode, it was good to see some progress being made on the dragonstone storyline, enjoyed both scenes with Tywin in, and it had a pretty cool ending as well with Dany as well.

  306. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Sergei Walankov,

    Actually, I didn’t like the “Theon rape” scene either, so that’s three altered/added scenes now Dany/Theon/Cercei. Wow. I’m really starting to get disturbed the more I think about this. Why this theme? Why THESE alterations?

    Killing Ros – well, they were forced to age up Joff – makes sense to add a new level to him. Shae – don’t get/like the point of her changes, but she’s still a consistent, different character so far. Robb’s wife swap – heck, made Robb seems a POV character, perfectly fine with me. Pod, added scenes – is just funny.

    This change was less funny. Again, as other have said it you can “grey” up Jaime all you want if you want to raise the stakes – have him beat up Loras? Have him be nasty to Tommen? There’s lots of a****** things Jaime could do that’s far more consistent with his history/character. Make him so grey he’s almost black for all I care. I am not upset that he’s not my pretty blonde hero – he pushed a kid out a window, he will always be the guy that pushed a kid out a window.

    But to have him do the opposite of what he established he thought was wrong to let happen to Breianne… it feels clumsy and wrong….

    The wildling scene did need a minute or two more time to establish for me too. Ah well… no biggie compared to…

  307. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Right. Rape is a horrible crime and not deserved by anyone, no matter how awful they are. But I think the point here is to show that Jaime is NOT a good character even though he has been influenced in some way by Brienne, the best of characters. But he still has done some terrible things, the worst being pushing Bran out of a window with the intention of killing him. Nothing he ever does after that will whitewash him in my view. And this rape (for that’s what this was) serves to demonstrate that Jaime is still a reprehensible, immoral character to say the least.

  308. FrYo
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Brilliant dialogue yes!

    I am still wondering what they will do with the Hound storyline at the end of the season. The Second Sons shout-out gives me (wishfull) hope that they could choose to have him stick around for a bit, maybe replace Penny and give us the Hound and the Imp roadshow in Essos.

  309. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    Indeed, the main reason I tended to give the rape scene the benefit of the doubt was that the show wasn’t allowing us to get comfortable with the notion of Jaime-the-Redeemed, which is no less of a trope than the cold-blooded bad-boy routine we thought we were getting when we were introduced to him.

  310. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    That said, I think Lady Wolfsbane has it right – there were plenty of ways that objective could have been achieved with greater integrity.

  311. Carne
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    Adding to my previous comment: Julian Glover and Ian Beattie were also credit yet they did not appear.

  312. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Sergei Walankov: That said, I think Lady Wolfsbane has it right – there were plenty of ways that objective could have been achieved with greater integrity.

    Maybe, but this was quick, to the point, and also made a strong point about the state of the relationship between Jaime and Cersei. Remember, this is a TV show, not a book, they have to convey the characters’ inner thoughts and feelings via action; and also they don’t have the time to show the slow deterioration of their relationship.

  313. Lin Beifunk
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    How old is show!Tommen supposed to be, as an aside? Like, twelve?

  314. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    There was a lot that was good about this episode. The Sam/Gilly scene, the Dragonstone scenes, especially Davos/Shireen (Kaniggit! Yay for Monty Python!), Tyrion and Pod, Olenna and Margaery. Littlefinger was appropriately creepy, Oberyn explains that no, not everyone has a preference, and Tywin politicks.

    There were several changes from the books, and all in the same direction – make things darker, make characters more violent. The wildling raid on the village and the Thenn cannibalism. The Hound stealing from the farmer, as contrasted with the stay at the village in the books, where he did honest work and sort of wanted to stay. And the rape in the sept, where any trace of consent from Cersei’s side was removed.

    I’m not upset because they changed something from the way it was in the book. (It was rape in the book too. She said no, he didn’t care.) I’m not upset because they ruined the redemption of my precious perfect Jaime – that’s not how I see him, and his “redemption” in the books isn’t much of one anyway, it’s just that we start to see how broken he is inside. So why am I upset? I’m upset because there are people saying that it wasn’t rape.

    “Cersei wouldn’t let herself be raped” – except that she was repeatedly raped by Robert, and she can’t defend herself here without completely destroying her own reputation and thereby putting her children’s legitimacy even more in question, because of course whoever came to help her would blame her for what Jaime was doing. “He only has one hand, they had too many clothes on, she didn’t fight him” – except he’s significantly bigger, he tears her clothes, he holds her down with his weight, and she says Stop. This is her twin, the father of her dead child, the one who claims to love her with all that he is – shouldn’t saying Stop! be enough? “She shouldn’t have kissed him if she didn’t want to have sex” – seriously? I mean, seriously? Even aside from the gross victim blaming issue, how about wanting a kiss as comfort because she was standing next to the body of her/their dead son?

    Some commenters are saying people weren’t this upset when Jaime pushed Bran out the window, or when Joffrey had babies killed. First of all, I’m not sure that’s true at all. But secondly, if there was less arguing about it in the comments, maybe that’s because nobody tried to defend those acts. Nobody tried to say that it was Bran’s fault he got pushed out a window, or that Robert’s bastards didn’t try to fight hard enough. And yet here there are people saying that it wasn’t rape, because Cersei. That’s really what it all boils down to – if that had been anyone else, it would be rape, but it was Cersei. And somehow that’s supposed to negate it all. She’s bad, she’s sexual, she’s been sleeping with this guy before, so it can’t be rape because people like him better than her.

    And yeah, I get a little bit upset about that.

  315. Valaquen
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    Andrew:
    Consensual my ass. Very convenient that you all are leaving out the preceding bit:

    There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.”

    Right. Consensual. Sure.

    The limited perspective of the books still trips up lots of fans who think that what they’re being told is happening (Cersei consents!) is in fact simply the skewed and biased perspective of the POV character (more like Cersei capitulates). It seems odd to me that ASOIAF fans forget that these characters are never black or white, and never firmly on an upward trajectory. Jaime was likewise disturbingly rough with Cersei back in season 1 episode 2. I myself don’t know why people expected that sept scene to have any vestige of positivity or even solemnity about it. It was repulsive in the text, it’s repulsive here.

  316. Rob
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    I understand that if any other RAPE COMMENTS come pouring out of this post, im going have to eat every fucking chicken in my house. Lol seriously people are overreacting too much.

    Sorry for my bad english.

  317. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:40 am | Permalink

    Here is what I saw in that scene. The show made certain changes to lead to this event. First of all, we know that Jaime has spent every second of his time in prison waiting to return to his sister. Every second of his travel back with Brienne, he has been doing nothing but waiting to see her again. Shes basically the only thing in his life that matters. He loves her more than anything.

    Then he gets back, and she flat out rejects him. She verbally slaps him down after all his intense struggles to get back to her. The one person in the world he loves and the only reason he felt he had to live throws him away so easily and doesn’t give a shit that he nearly died. So basically, he is taking out that hurt back on her while still trying to convince himself that she still loves him. Its not completely out of character, but it did make me uncomfortable to witness.

    The reason this will hurt Jaime’s character in the eyes of the unsullied is because they don’t get to go inside his head and truly see how much he loved Cersei and just how much of his life he as dedicated to this woman. She basically manipulated him his whole life into giving everything up for her and then threw him away in a second after he lost his hand and got captured rather than being with her to comfort her at her time of need.

  318. paul
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Very good episode,but I am wondering if some wanting equal race representation,no hints of rape etc. would better enjoy some reruns of the waltons.

  319. trarecar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    I knew it was coming, and braced myself with dread of the sheer icky-ness of having sex next to your child’s dead body, but wasn’t prepared for Cersei to not be into it in the end. It was clear she wanted him, but was concerned with the place it was happening. Ultimately it was rape for all the reasons others have eloquently stated above, but it was also clear that they intended for the scene to be ambiguous.

    I think they plan to show this act will be the turning point in his mind of how screwed up being with Cersei has made him, and will be the catalyst for the true change that everyone is looking forward to. There’s lots for Jaime still to do that’s good, and nothing but bad for Cersei. Actual societal issues aside, I don’t think anyone will still hate Jaime for this come the end of the season.

  320. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    My favourite characters from that show being Zhenya, Diego and Kareem Abdul Walton.

  321. Tyroshi Barber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    If this was ‘rape’ , I raped my girlfriend lots of times. I loved the scene because of Jamies internal struggles of loving a hateful woman.
    And in my memory it was exactly the same as it was in the books. Guess I’m wrong about that…

  322. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    Interior Bannisters: The reason this will hurt Jaime’s character in the eyes of the unsullied is because they don’t get to go inside his head and truly see how much he loved Cersei and just how much of his life he as dedicated to this woman. She basically manipulated him his whole life into giving everything up for her and then threw him away in a second after he lost his hand and got captured rather than being with her to comfort her at her time of need.

    Dude, the unsullied are not stupid.

  323. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    barak,

    I really hope they bring forward the fact that Cersei is the reason Jaime joined the kingsguard. That he dedicated his life to her. That fact shines a whole new light on her rejection on him in episode 1. Its not just, my lover rejected me. Its the person I dedicated my life to threw me away without a second thought.

  324. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    I think I prefer Joffrey to Jaime now. At least Joffrey never raped anyone.

    Death makes angels of us all.

  325. The Purist
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce: You should change your username to the toolist. Get it because you are a tool eheh.

    Nah, that’s the name you should be using, seeing as you’re lame enough to find your own jokes funny.

    Boy, the reasons you people are putting up are pathetic. “I did it so it’s not rape” or “it’s Cersei, so it’s okay” or “it’s okay, because Jaime is horny” type of excuses, oh boy, you people are terrible and not fit enough to be D&D’s ass polishers.

  326. Shady_Grady
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    I don’t think Cersei consented as much as she submitted. It really changes the character arcs as the love/lust Jaime has for his sister is the one pure thing he has in his life. I didn’t like the scene at all.

  327. Alice
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Gotta say, Larry’s review of yesterday’s episode is pretty insightful, especially regarding his analysis of Dany’s actions :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c4rWGdyKFc&list=UURTAkgIRP-0CRTGYD4ZzVDg

    I am glad he stopped being so whiny and started showing some enthusiasm again!

  328. duncanny
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    Valaquen: The limited perspective of the books still trips up lots of fans who think that what they’re being told is happening (Cersei consents!) is in fact simply the skewed and biased perspective of the POV character (more like Cersei capitulates). It seems odd to me that ASOIAF fans forget that these characters are never black or white, and never firmly on an upward trajectory. Jaime was likewise disturbingly rough with Cersei back in season 1 episode 2. I myself don’t know why people expected that sept scene to have any vestige of positivity or even solemnity about it. It was repulsive in the text, it’s repulsive here.

    Well said. I recall being quite disturbed by the scene in the book.

    Sergei Walankov:
    ….the show wasn’t allowing us to get comfortable with the notion of Jaime-the-Redeemed, which is no less of a trope than the cold-blooded bad-boy routine we thought we were getting when we were introduced to him.

    Sergei Walankov:
    That said, I think Lady Wolfsbane has it right – there were plenty of ways that objective could have been achieved with greater integrity.

    Agree; perhaps there were other ways to accomplish this. Of course, Jaime has also killed his cousin in the show which caused a degree of outrage. We are clearly being reminded that he is not a hero. Why is the show going to such lengths to remind us of this fact?

  329. Streetad
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    It’s amazing and slightly disconcerting how many people can read a description of a rape from the point of view of a rapist and come away without realising a rape took place at all.
    Jaime isn’t on any kind of a redemption arc. Through Brienne’s influence he is TRYING to be a better person and a ‘true knight’, hence his commitment to the Kings guard, but he doesn’t know how. He’s almost playing at it. In Jaime’s mind, the only true, pure, noble thing in his life is his love for Cersei, and now he is back in Kings Landing he seems to have decided that the right thing to do is to try to be a good ‘husband’ and ‘father’. Jaime is a deeply screwed up individual and Cersei only makes him worse.
    I am guessing the people who are upset that this has ‘derailed’ Jaime’s redemption are the same ones who think Arya is going to grow up into an awesome kickass assassin who will avenge all the evil that has been done to her or that Dany, Tyrion and Jon are going to ride in at the last minute on dragons to save everyone from the Others. If you haven’t realised it’s not that kind of story by now you never will.
    What is good about the sept scene is how it affects CERSEI’s character arc. She has just lost one son, and sees the other, the youngest, one that belonged only to her, spirited away in front of her eyes to be fed into the meat grinder of Westerosi politics. She tries to use her last remaining source of power, her sexuality, to convince her brother to take revenge on the man who she thinks murdered her son. Instead, Jaime, her ‘soulmate’ and the only person she has ever trusted, calls her a monster and takes what he wants anyway. Cersei has absolutely no power or agency at the moment, which will help us to understand her later actions.
    On a lighter note, Ed’s back! Wildlings are doomed now…

  330. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    I just love peoples’ reactions to this. The guy murdered people, threw a kid out of a window. But implied forced sex with his sister? Completely unacceptable to internet feminists!

  331. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    David Hamburger:
    Actually, she is NOT holding Joffrey’s hand.I just rewatched the scene after reading that.His hands are crossed across his chest the whole time.And during all of the action, Cersei isn’t near enough to hold his hand unless it was hanging down, which it clearly is not.You can see both of her hands in much of the scenes.I’m guessing that the writer confused her grabbing at whatever you would call the altar’s tablecloth with Joffrey’s hand at the end of the scene somehow.

    Your name makes me hungry. I watched the scene again this morning. Yes, you are right. It is not Joff’s hand but it does comes across as if she wanted to hold her dead son’s hand during the scene. I don’t know why the reviewer mentioned that.

  332. Matru
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    You could say Melisandre raped Gendry last season, no one complained then.
    It’s an adult tv-show, bad things happen. No need to make such a fuss about it.

  333. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Matru:
    You could say Melisandre raped Gendry last season, no one complained then.
    It’s an adult tv-show, bad things happen. No need to make such a fuss about it.

    what annoys me (and probably most other people commenting on it) is not them showing a character being raped on screen, but the fact that its an act which is completely out of character for Jaime. Many would feel that all the bad stuff he did before he justified as doing it for those he loved mainly Cersei, and for him to turn around and rape her is quite shocking for many, and also undo’s a lot of the character development that has gone into the character. If Melisandre raped Gendry, its no big deal (it would be in real life but they are fictional characters at the end of the day and GoT has done worse) as Melisandre’s character is that she is devoted to the Lord of Light, and would do anything that she thought was commanded by him

  334. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    It is either rape or incest take your pick. There is no way out for the sullied or unsullied. I choose incest. You can’t credit GRRM with writing strong female characters and have one of them not being able to say no and mean it. Sure Jaime is bigger and well trained, but do you honestly think Cersei(who had her husband murdered and threatened LF to see him gutted) was a shrinking violet and intimidated by her brother. Jaime was not going to stop, but one slap by his sister would have stopped him. It was refusal and then submission, but it wasn’t love and had never been even if you found it titillating in the book. Both characters were at their weakest points and both characters are irredeemable of their past deeds.

  335. Petter Kristian Vikestad
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    The change was awful for sure, but what is more interesting here is all the modern sensibilities about rape vs the sensibilities about murder. I guess murder on screen create no reactions any more

  336. Shock Me
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    I was more disturbed by Cersei’s initial refusal of Jaimie in the show at the end of last season.

    In the books, Jaime’s taking too long returning was what lead to Joffrey’s death. In the books, the first time Cersei sees Jaimie is when Joffrey is ALREADY on the alter and laying in state. In the books, she is willing and consents because she has been desperate for his touch and then becomes nervous about the location afterwards because her father might find out and because Jaimie is talking crazy about them getting married and sending Tommen to to be lord of Casterly Rock.

    She wants him to go to Tyrion’s cell and murder him, even if he has to wait until after he hears the evidence of the trial.

    I read the show version as “a bit of a rape” instead of a rough encounter. He seems driven by anger and lust for her and is taking out his frustration through sexual violence. In the books, in tower of the Kinsguard, Cersei approaches him again and kneels to fellate him to convince him to aid her (like she does with the Kettleblacks).

    What they decide to do or not do with that scene will tell us more about show Cersei’s opinion of the event.

    Jaimie’s unwillingness to help Cersei in her vendetta against Tyrion is what destroys their relationship making the assault in the show a bit pointless plot-wise.

  337. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Interior Bannisters:

    barak,
    I really hope they bring forward the fact that Cersei is the reason Jaime joined the kingsguard. That he dedicated his life to her. That fact shines a whole new light on her rejection on him in episode 1. Its not just, my lover rejected me. Its the person I dedicated my life to threw me away without a second thought.

    I think it’s quite clear even if they don’t go into details. He just came back from captivity, killed and lied to be able to be with her, he got himself pretty much disowned to continue to be with her. It was also mentioned that he’s only ever been with her (in 40 years!) which also shows how important she is for him. And she’s like “no, I don’t want you anymore.”

    What I hope is that they’ll show more of how things are like from Cersei’s POV. Right now she comes across as ungrateful, which to be fair she is, but on the other hand (ha!) she’s had a lot of things going on during the time they were apart.

    NomadicDirewolf: but the fact that its an act which is completely out of character for Jaime.

    Even though it happens in the book as well? Even in the book she doesn’t consent, Jaime just doesn’t care about her telling him to stop.

  338. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    having had time to think about the rape, I actually think that the issue of whether he raped her or not is less important as, although rape is very serious in real life, worse things have happened in GoT that we have had less issues with, and there are plenty of rapes later on in the books, Ramsay at least comes to mind. Whats at stake is essentially a character thing, and the question is, would jaime from the books done the same thing in the books if there wasnt any consent from Cersei?
    And honestly, if you read the passage in the books she had already said ‘no’ before she said yes,so technically at least for a very small amount of time, he was raping her. I think its likely that Jaime in the books would have done the same thing then.
    Maybe it was badly done so it looks non consensual when it is consensual, and maybe it was an unwise decision to include this scene in the show even if jaime would have done the same thing in the books, as it fucks up his character development, but I dont think we can definitively say that its not true to his character

  339. Valaquen
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    NomadicDirewolf: what annoys me (and probably most other people commenting on it) is not them showing a character being raped on screen, but the fact that its an act which is completely out of character for Jaime. Many would feel that all the bad stuff he did before he justified as doing it for those he loved mainly Cersei, and for him to turn around and rape her is quite shocking for many, and also undo’s a lot of the character development that has gone into the character. If Melisandre raped Gendry, its no big deal (it would be in real life but they are fictional characters at the end of the day and GoT has done worse) as Melisandre’s character is that she is devoted to the Lord of Light, and would do anything that she thought was commanded by him

    I think you’re taking Jaime, as he is in the books, completely on his own word. Since the chapter in question is told through his POV it’s not going to be as unambiguous in the show as it is in his head. There was nothing feel-good in that scene even in the book. I think that when a reader begins to sympthasize with a character they start to lap up their in-head commentary and biases. Limited-perspective POV is something Martin uses to great effect, since it creates and courts ambiguities. But I think his readers buy into it too completely. Stannis fans can excuse Renly’s killing (murder, assassination, kinslaying, what-have-you) on the pretext that he broke the law; simply because they buy into Davos’ interpretation of Stannis. Sometimes you have to step back from the character and interrogate the fidelity of the text to the truth, whatever that may be.

    I do find it somewhat discomforting that folks can excuse the scene in the books because Cersei finally capitulates (I find ‘consent’ to be a very skewed way of interpreting it). If I forced myself onto a grieving, unwilling family member who finally returned my affections, well, I hope I wouldn’t feel good about it, or have excuses made on my behalf.

    Remember guys, this is a monumentally fucked up relationship with two monumentally fucked up people in it. Their lovemaking has literally spawned hate and death and malevolence (notably in the form of Joffrey, in addition to their other misdeeds). Now it’s collapsing in on itself and the violence is being inverted back onto its perpetrators. It should not be easy viewing. For a show celebrated for see-sawing around the grey zone of morality, frequently dipping into extreme shades of black and white, to have people complain that Jaime is being shown in a bad light is giving me the ole cognitive dissonance.

  340. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    tdraicer:
    >Are people actually complimenting this crap?

    Yes, there are actually people who don’t view the world through your eyes. Amazing, isn’t it.

    >They DESTROYED Jaime’s character. Utterly, completely.

    Hmm, in a moment of grief, anger, and desperation he forces himself (without any actual violence) on the woman his entire life has revolved around in a forbidden, indeed potentially fatal relationship, a woman who has first cut him loose, then suddenly come on to him in the context of asking him to murder the brother he loves, and in the minds of some this is no different than the Mountain with the Viper’s sister. Okay then. For myself, the scene made perfect psychological sense for both of them; both his losing control and her inability to get into it next to her son’s dead body (which is where the scene as played in the book strikes me as psychologically false).

    Agreed. I don’t know why people are so vehemently framing this as outright character assassination. Jaime not reacting well to rejection and denial is perfectly believable, as is Cersei’s lack of desire, especially considering the setting. The scene as portrayed has more weight than the original. Rape is ugly, but Jaime is acting on their romantic precedent and sexual frustration. I’m not condoning the act. It’s just believable considering his former nature as both her lover and a man of action. I think the scene further illustrates the fundamental shift on their dynamic, or current lack thereof.

  341. Nope
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Wait, only hardcore feminist can be against rape??????

  342. Ser Blount Sarkasm
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Yes rape is terrible and Jaime is no hero… but I’m a bit more confounded about another morally abhorrent scene.

    How about the Hound stealing? I thought that dawg had a code? Did he steal the silver because the Brotherhood owed him and they gave the farmer it? Is that the real justification rather than just stealing because these people will not make it through the winter?

    I don’t know Hound that’s pretty messed up logic to go breaking your code like that. I mean you could argue that Joffrey was such a dickbag of a king that he wouldn’t make it through winter either, but he didn’t go stealing from him. Now, if it was an accounting rationale on behalf of the Brotherhood’s debts then I could understand.

    I demand an answer. Personally. From the Hound.

  343. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    I said in an earlier comment (not in this conversation though) that I agree he probably was raping her at least for a short time in that scene (as she originally said no) so he probably would have gone through with it even if he continued to say no, so from that perspective its not untrue to Jaime’s character.
    What I do feel though that maybe it would have been better not to include that scene in the show if they were going to do it like that (with Jaime saying ‘I dont care’ making him seem like an arsehole), as it ruins a lot of the character development that he has gone through previously.
    The weird thing is though, there are loads of scenes like that in films and tv shows, where the woman at first says no, but then says yes, and audiences dont think very much less of the character. So when you think about it, had all that happened and Cersei eventually said yes, it would probably at least partially redeem Jaime’s actions in many people’s eyes, even though it really doesnt make him any better

  344. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    NomadicDirewolf,

    worse things have happened in GoT that we have had less issues with, and there are plenty of rapes later on in the books,

    No, there are plenty of rapes throughout the entire series not just in the later books, the show has mostly chosen to avoid filming these scenes though.

  345. GRRMlin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Guys, don’t blame D&D for this. I’m assuming that, going from what Alex Graves said on his interview, that in the script the scene was supposed to be ‘consensual in the end.’ But Alex Graves did a pretty poor job of showing that!

    And it’s a big deal. Reading the reviews, people just don’t get it.

  346. Summer is Coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    It’s sad that the Cersei-Jaime scene controversy overshadows a rather great episode. That being said, I also did find the change in the twins relationship confounding… I could only think “Why? Why would they change that? What’s the purpose?”

    Yes, Cersei didn’t want at first, but that because of combined fear of being seen and her “moon blood” period. Once in the heat, she consents to his advances. So she wants to. Why TV Cersei couldn’t have said “Not here, we will be seen” and then Jaime to say “I don’t care”? That would have made a difference.

    Was it changed to make Cersei a victim, thus worthy of compassion despite her hatefulness? And what about Jaime? It really contradicts with everything we know about him, about how he feels about rape, about Cersei… Again.. why? why would they make such a change? Some changes are understandable in the adaptation process, but this one? I really, can not truly see it’s purpose.

  347. GRRMlin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Summer is Coming,

    Honestly this is on par with the Half-hand changes back in Season 2. Such pointless changes. Makes me wish I hadn’t read the books! ><

    It COULD be redeemed in the next episode. Jaime and Cersei have another scene there.

    Can someone just give me their best guess as to what D&D are trying to do with Jaime and Cersei’s relationship?

  348. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Ser Blount Sarkasm:
    Jaime is no hero… but…

    How about the Hound stealing?I thought that dawg had a code?

    Exactly. They made such an impact with the Hound’s “code” retort and other quips during ep1, then they completely negated it with the ep3 Hound stealing scene. I thought it was odd as well…but the Hound ain’t no hero either. We can’t assume anything with this series.

  349. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    Summer is Coming,

    All discussions and opinions of the infamous scene aside, I thought this was another fantastic episode. A few continuity glitches (from an editing standpoint) aside, this week’s installment was packed with confident content. I was wowed by the gates of Meereen. The scale is incredible.

  350. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    That confused me too, but I guess his reasoning is similar to that of one taking silver off a corpse. The peasants are dead men walking to him.

  351. chives
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    I remember back in the infancy of computer games (and some more modern sub-par examples), where players could get stuck in the weirdest of places. Perhaps the stupidest of which were those tiny little steps, perhaps a couple of inches high, which stopped characters like an insurmountable cliff.

    I could see the reasoning, sort of. I could understand the steps which could lead to such a stupid situation. Something which those of us, in a more rational situation, can see as the broken, perverse logic it is.

  352. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Ser Blount, The Hound instructs me to advise you that he is an adherent to the social contract theory of Thomas Hobbes, as distinct from John Locke’s natural rights conception of property which forms the foundation of modern liberalism. He therefore conceives property entirely as a consequence of state power, with no meaning beyond the state’s capacity to enforce it.

  353. Strong Sir Belwas
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    Loved the episode, really feel like the writing and dialogue is much stronger this season. Definitely less hamfisted. I do have one odd question regarding this season. What’s with the town butt pump? He was with loras in some useless sexposition and now with Oberyn. What is this mans purpose? Do you guys think he will be involved in the trial somehow? Just eye candy for gay viewers? Legitimate question about the character, I’m not homophobic in anyway.

  354. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    It’s sad that the Cersei-Jaime scene controversy overshadows a rather great episode.

    Agreed. So much to discuss, but sadly none of us are doing it.

  355. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Nope:
    Renly’s Peach,

    Wait, only hardcore feminist can be against rape??????

    Never said that. Who isn’t against rape? That’s the better question.

    My comment was more about the fact that this rape (if it was rape, it isn’t really clear, we’ll probably know next episode) is somehow the worst thing that’s ever happened. Shit take Theons situation for instance. He’s been castrated, tortured and all sorts of shit. Where was the outrage? Ygritte in this episode, lead a raiding party that slaughtered an entire village of civilians…

    It’s ridiculous manufactured outrage that’s just a home run for the tumblr/jezebel/etc crowd. Trigger warning….

  356. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    What is this mans purpose?

    Butt-pumping. Personally, I’m happy to regard him tolerantly as a means to the end of redressing the nudity gender imbalance.

  357. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    Strong Sir Belwas,

    He may be the new Ros. He clearly has Littlefinger’s confidence. I like him. He’s a good performer. I doubt he has much greater significance than what’s been shown. Even as a guy, I find Olyvar’s presence refreshing in a sea of nameless boobs in the brothel. He is written and acted rather well. Also, his appearance with Loras was espionage. Not sexposition.

  358. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    The series purely exists for entertainment, if people are really getting so torn up by it maybe they’re watching the wrong sort of show.

    I mean, we can debate the finer points of the scene till the end of time, but when people start calling others “rape-apologists” for giving their interpretation of a COMPLETELY FICTIONAL scene, I think perhaps it’s time to have a breather.

    Incidental, the next episode looks to be very keen on making Cersei seem worse while making Jamie more heroic, so to judge this scene without the story arc even coming close to finishing is slightly jumping the gun.

  359. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Strong Sir Belwas,

    Also, if you want to raise a question without raising any flags, you might reconsider dropping delightful word choices such as “butt-pumping.” Pairing that with “I’m not homophobic” sends mixed messages, as it conjures the hateful casting of homosexual men as a depraved army of single-minded sodomites. Sexuality is broader and deeper in meaning than a single act. You don’t see anybody labeling heterosexuals “vag-divers” in neutral conversation for a reason.

  360. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt,

    Most people do watch it for entertainment. Others… watch it to see exactly what they expect to see, at all times. You can see why one of these parties is more prone to fits.

  361. Shock Me
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    I like how very few of the comments even speak of the incest anymore. How would it have been OK even if she begged him for it as she eventually did in the books?

    Would everything be just hunky dory if she went down on him right there two feet from her dead son?

    Would it have really been OK behind a locked door in Maegor’s Holdfast, The Tower of the Hand, or the White Tower of the Kingsguard?

    If you have love for the Jaimie character, how could you not want him to just move on from Cersei?

    The whole situation is seven kinds of messed up. But I understand it all. I just want to know where they go from here. And if Lena Heady as an actress is down for what might happen next when she comes on to him in the White Tower.

  362. Gooderson
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Howland Reed,

    Should the Washington Redskins change their names? Should people do performances in blackface? Well, yes if they don’t want to offend people. They should be aware of the histories they offend.

    In the same way, of course, the show-runners / director should be aware of the potential pitfalls of portraying grey-area sexual encounters (or clear-cut rape, depending on your interpretation) on screen.

    With that said, I do not think it is in poor taste to ever portray rape, obviously. Rape is a fact of life, portraying it on-screen should not be seen as “bad” so long as it is not done with glee or carelessness.

    I think as we re-watch this episode, it will be clear this was sort of a genius artistic move, and if anything, comes from a place of outright feminism than a place of naivety.

    Cersei, as book readers know, is a character who is often defined by the oppression she is enforced to endure at the hands of men. This can be seen on the show from things we have seen, and from things we know (as book readers) will come.

    During the show itself, her father uses his position which is granted to him by way of his male-ness to steamroll over her protestations. This culminates in the very same scene as he guides her remaining son away from her. Lest you forget, Tyrion did the same thing to her daughter without Cercei’s consent.

    Most importantly, in terms of interpreting the show-runners’ intent here, is the Sam/Gilly scene in this episode which is very much about men, power, and the ever-present possibility of rape at the hands of sexually-frustrated men. On second viewing you must conclude this is no accident.

    I don’t have much more to say about this right now. Whatever you will say about how they “ruined” Jamie, I do not care. The show used this opportunity to take a much bleaker-view of the world of Westeros than may even be present in the book — or at the very least, they clarified it. It was a brilliant way to double-down on the inequality of the sexes in Westeros, and again, show us what Cersei has had to live with all her life that makes her who she is.

  363. Ilovejam
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    So it’s only “hardcore feminists” who consider rape a fucking awful, criminal, and disgusting act?
    Yeah, right. Who cares if the dude’s a rapist, if all his other traits are cool?
    You are a prime example for rape culture.

  364. loco73
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Just as an aside, Rolling Stone magazine is holding a face off for the most memorable moments on television. They are in the final now and GoT and it’s Red Wedding is squaring off for the top spot with “The Sopranos” and it’s series finale.

    All GoT fans go to the link below and let’s make sure the Red Wedding attains it’s proper place in pop culture!

    http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/top-tv-moment-heartstoppers

    PS The episode contained the perhaps best line so far and destined to become one of the classic lines from GoT :

    “I will not become a page in someone else’s history book!”

    Stannis Baratheon

  365. queenofthorns
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    johnShit take Theons situation for instance. He’s been castrated, tortured and all sorts of shit. Where was the outrage

    Well, I have talked a bunch of times about how I loathe the torture in the show and think it’s near the point of glorification. Fans told me to grow up and stop whining and go watch Disney or something.

    I think it’s OK to be offended by pointless depictions of rape and torture, honestly they are pretty much the same, IMO (or rather, rape is a form of torture).

    Of course in this case people aren’t really pissed that someone raped someone, but rather than someone they think wouldn’t rape did. No one thinks that Ramsey is really a good guy at heart.

    Sergei Walankov:

    Hahah this is awesome. :)

    Strong Sir Belwas: What is this mans purpose? Do you guys think he will be involved in the trial somehow? Just eye candy for gay viewers?

    I’l have you know that us straight ladies like some sexy naked man butt/chest/making out. Much like you straight guys tend to enjoy lesbians getting it on.

  366. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Summer is Coming: And what about Jaime? It really contradicts with everything we know about him, about how he feels about rape, about Cersei…

    Does it though? I mean, in terms of the show? We don’t get any sense of his feelings about the marital rape she suffered for years at the hands of Robert. (Per Brienne, yes, that’s true). We get that he was pissed at the way Robert would flaunt his screwing around, but not so much at how he felt about Robert and Cersei.

    And let’s not forget – the product of their sin – and this is sin! – is there, dead at their side. We can’t become accustomed to the idea that this relationship is ok because of, say, the Targaryens, who are the exception to the rule about brother/sister relations in Westeros, which many people in that society found horrifying anyway and produced such gems as Mad King Aerys. “They say when a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin.” (And lest we also forget, when you have dragons at your back, you tend to win arguments about things that would normally go against you.)

    So this relationship is already abhorrent, and a horror, and Jaime can’t let go of it even after Cersei has broken with him entirely. The entire relationship is abominable, and Jaime, as far as we know, has only been with Cersei (if we believe him to be telling the truth to Cat and Brienne in Season 2/Episode 7 when he taunts Cat about Ned’s infidelity). So he’s taking what he wants, which is consistent with the books where we, again, only see it from his POV.

    Yes, Jaime didn’t want to see Brienne raped by people he regarded as savage and beneath him. So that complicates this a bit – but then again, he considers Cersei to be “his” so to speak. So he acts – in this terrible, awful fashion, but I didn’t feel comfortable with it in the books either, where agreed, it is a bit more unclear, but still reads out to me like rape.

    And then again as an aside I’ll add that this was a really really solid episode, with the standouts being the appearance of Littlefinger and Tyrion’s letting go of Pod. Loyalty in Westeros mostly gets you killed.

  367. GRRMlin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    john,

    Naa, it’s pretty clear, just read the reviews.

    That’s the thing! Even if there was a little indication that Cersei was even mildly consenting it would have been a different scene altogether.

  368. Dragonsun
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    In my humble opinion the best episode this season so far. So much great content and storylines. Tywin-Tommen and Tyrion-Pod were great as were Petyr-Sansa and Sam-Gilly. Loved the way they introduced the Iron Bank of Braavos and the Golden Company, very happy to see they won’t cut that one as they did with the Stormcrows/Brown Ben Plumm. Jon growing into a leader is great but I missed him saying that in order to save the people south of the wall they will have to fight for the Watch. Daario’s fight was awesome and Michiel Huisman is doing great. Oberyn-Tywin was the best scene of the episode with more information about the strength of Dorne etc. The little farmboy did some great acting and I can’t wait for next week! And Mereen looks stunning

  369. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    loco73,

    Stannis: “I AM the history! I AM THE ONE WHO REWRITES!”

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    I’m usually accepting of Gillan’s portrayal, but I found his voice unusually grating this week. Maybe he was sick while shooting, like he was while recording the Blu-ray featurette.

    queenofthorns,

    Most straight guys seem to be into straight girls getting it on.

    Dragonsun,

    It’s a GREAT episode overall. It is known.

  370. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    Gooderson: Most importantly, in terms of interpreting the show-runners’ intent here, is the Sam/Gilly scene in this episode which is very much about men, power, and the ever-present possibility of rape at the hands of sexually-frustrated men. On second viewing you must include this is no accident.

    This is a good point. It comes from the same kind of paternalistic “I know better than you” concern that rolls over the objections of the human being affected, and it also strikes me as particularly myopic. Sure, the Night’s Watch isn’t perhaps the best place for a woman, but a Mole’s Town whorehouse where greedy, hungry men come to get theirs doesn’t strike me as that much safer. I’m not sure why they decided to not ensconce her at the Nightfort, unless it’s just too far to be practical as a place to have her stay.

  371. queenofthorns
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: Most straight guys seem to be into straight girls getting it on.

    Does that mean that dudes want to see the girls make out with each other but not actually enjoy it? That just seems self defeating! :)

  372. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I hears ya. I found it fine this week. He was trying to whisper, which makes it come out a bit more growly, I’d say. Also I’ve become accustomed to the idea that Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle are all to one degree or another affecting a kind of performance – Varys drops his register when he’s speaking more seriously or emotionally, Pycelle sounds less winded or addled when he’s letting someone in on his true state (“Valar Morghulis,” when he gives Tyrion a coin for his trouble), and Littlefinger does it too.

  373. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    queenofthorns: Of course in this case people aren’t really pissed that someone raped someone, but rather than someone they think wouldn’t rape did. No one thinks that Ramsey is really a good guy at heart.

    But Jaime is? As it was pointed out a million times already, he did rape her in the book, too. Just because some people want to believe that Jaime is now somehow “redeemed” and will not do bad things ever again, doesn’t make it true.

  374. Mariya Martell
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Looks like no one has dared mention the real controversial topic of this episode: potatoes in Westeros. Please discuss.

  375. queenofthorns
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    barak,

    I said “people are pissed because they think he is a good guy at heart” or at least redeemable (whereas they are not pissed at depictions of Joffery and Ramsey torturing people since no one thinks that they are).

    Personally, I think he’s deeply grey and that this moment was by far his lowest point (here or in the books) but that’s neither here nor there.

  376. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Rabid Grunt,

    So if it isnt entertaining?
    Then what?

  377. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    No doubt it was with an eye to the theme of the episode that the farmer who took in Arya and The Hound bequeathed The Maiden to “protect Sally’s virtue” while saying grace. I wonder if the show-runners decided to make explicit Jaime’s rape of Cersei in the interests of the thematic unity of the episode – a thing not many viewers would care about all that much.

  378. PedroForPrez
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    I don’t think you can argue that the sex was consentual in the book. Cersi just stops fighting Jaime. She basically gives up and wants to get it over which IMO is not consenting.

  379. rorschach-
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    I think the Jaime/Cersei scene can be either good or bad. Us sullied react to it harder because we know about the “Jaimes redemption”, and expect it. But if they handle the next episodes with care, I think it gives more bone (ehehe) to Jaimes redemption. One scene is character development, whole season is doing it wrong. And at the moment people are reacting only to one scene instead of looking it as a whole picture. Which I think is absurd, but I can see why some people do it because we can’t yet see the whole picture.

    And really though, as much as we love Jaime and his “redemption”, he is someone who pushed a little kid out of window for seeing him frick his sister. I think the rough sex describes well the anger and frustration he must be feeling towards Cersei.

  380. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Mariya Martell: Looks like no one has dared mention the real controversial topic of this episode: potatoes in Westeros. Please discuss.

    They’ve been mentioned twice before (by Bronn in 208 and Rast in 304), so it’s nothing new. The books establish that there are pumpkins, turkeys and sweetcorn in Westeros, and there are peacocks in the gardens around the Red Keep. We’re to take it that this world is not the same as our own, so it’s possible that many of these crops and animals were brought over from Essos or Sothoryos.

    OT, but the bit that really gets me is, Olenna seems to have a headress for EVERY F****** OCCASION! I don’t get why she needs to keep her hair covered at all times. Is she Medusa? They’ve wasted the entire headgear budget and left nothing for Tycho, grrrrrrrr!

  381. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    I love the actor who plays Sam, he is perfect but the actress playing Gilly is so dull. I would enjoy their scenes together much more if they had a different actress playing Gilly. Does anyone else not like Hannah Murray as Gilly? I find her performance not just dull but also kind of annoying.

  382. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Honestly, as a piece of TV, this was one of the greatest episodes they ever made. Tywin and Tommen’s discussion was spectacular. Charles Dance is a god. And Emilia’s speech was amazing as well. Shes grown staggeringly as an actress. I can’t wait for them to get to Dany’s struggles. And the dialogue, directing, was spot on.

    But still, I want to get next episode fast because I want to see where they take Jamie after this.

  383. Strong Sir Belwas
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,
    I’m tired of most of the shows useless sexposition, straight or otherwise. It almost never progresses the story, wastes valuable screen time. Poor choice of words perhaps but we haven’t seen anything else from the character but his bare ass as he is passed around. If anyone is casting gays in a poor light as sex starved sodomites it’s D&D with his promiscuous character and scenes. I digress. His acting has been fine, as a I said earlier just curious if anyone thought he had a deeper role in the episodes to come.

  384. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Looks like no one has dared mention the real controversial topic of this episode: potatoes in Westeros. Please discuss.

    Good one. I always blanched at potatoes in Middle Earth because it’s inconsistent with its basis in Germanic mythology. I don’t see that it’s a problem though in Martin’s world, which as far as I can tell doesn’t allow for the existence of an as yet undiscovered “new world”. The two continents are separated merely by a narrow sea, and the far reaches of Essos seem as known to the Seven Kingdoms as, say, China was to Imperial Rome.

  385. Tyroli
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    The moral outrage expressed by you and some of the commentators here (and the AV club article on the rape) says far more about our culture of violence than it does about rape culture.

    This is a show where the killing of men, women and young children is presented in graphic detail every week. Two weeks ago a 12-year old girl put a sword through the neck of an unarmed man until he bled to death. Last season, a pregnant woman was stabbed multiple times and repeatedly in the stomach. You know I could go on.

    Yes the rape was horrific and warrants some self-reflection about the value of representing rape in entertainment shows, but shouldn’t the weekly dismembering, decapitation and cannibalizing bother you as well?

    If this rape scene seriously disgusts you and you believe it to be a darker turn than usual for the show, you need to ask yourself, why were you fine watching the weekly killing of mothers and children?

    I don’t mean to point to you out specifically, this is a more general point, you were just the person that best articulated that point of view.

  386. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Strong Sir Belwas:
    His acting has been fine, as a I said earlier just curious if anyone thought he had a deeper role in the episodes to come.

    I’m wondering if this “new Ros” will suffer a similar fate as “old” Ros. Maybe he’ll be the one who gets skewered by the Mountain in an upcoming episode (as we have seen in the leaked stills).

  387. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Sergei Walankov:
    No doubt it was with an eye to the theme of the episode that the farmer who took in Arya and The Hound bequeathed The Maiden to “protect Sally’s virtue” while saying grace. I wonder if the show-runners decided to make explicit Jaime’s rape of Cersei in the interests of the thematic unity of the episode – a thing not many viewers would care about all that much.

    Well stated. A few other examples there in the episode too:

    –The entire Gilly/Sam dynamic
    –Margaery being told by her grandmother that she’s better off and saying how she suffered her husband to bear his children

    So those 2 plus the 2 I just mentioned, and you see a connective tissue here, and we could even throw in Sansa, who was victimized in the past by a person who had others beat her and threaten rape against her.

    If you use the Hound’s “There’s plenty worse than me” line as a callback to Season 3, he then said “There’s men who beat little girls. Who rape little girls. I saved your sister from some of them.”

  388. Sergei Walankov
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Well stated.

    Except that I meant “beseeched” when I said “bequeathed” …

  389. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    I love the actor who plays Sam, he is perfect but the actress playing Gilly is so dull.I would enjoy their scenes together much more if they had a different actress playing Gilly.Does anyone else not like Hannah Murray as Gilly?I find her performance not just dull but also kind of annoying.

    Is it the teeth? I quite like her

  390. Dan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    I’m not going to comment on the rape scene (okay short comment: I think it’s fine to show that Jamie is not entirely a ‘good guy’, but this was probably not the way to do it), but I do think it is interesting that while Tywin revealed how savvy he is about the threats to the kingdom (Greyjoy, wildings, Dany&dragons), he is still apparently completely clueless about the real threat of the White Walkers. As is most everyone.

  391. Annara Snow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Ljam: Ljam

    That may have something to do with the fact that Joffrey was a psychopatic king with absolute power to kill and torture people, which he’s already done lots of times and would’ve continued.

    In addition to this, the comparison is completely absurd. Your comparison makes about as much sense as if you suggested that it should be OK in countries/states with capital punishment to punish criminals by rape instead of executing them.

  392. Strong Sir Belwas
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Hmmm good guess. It would further to enrage Oberyn against Gregor.
    I give it the green light. I was glad to see Ros go in the manner she did but I don’t feel the same dislike for this guy. Guess he hasn’t stolen as much screen time from actual characters yet.

  393. mariamb
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Sergei Walankov:
    It’s sad that the Cersei-Jaime scene controversy overshadows a rather great episode.

    Agreed. So much to discuss, but sadly none of us are doing it.

    I am happy to discuss other scenes. Let’s start with the the Sam and Gilly ones.

    GreatJon of Slumber: This is a good point. It comes from the same kind of paternalistic “I know better than you” concern that rolls over the objections of the human being affected, and it also strikes me as particularly myopic. Sure, the Night’s Watch isn’t perhaps the best place for a woman, but a Mole’s Town whorehouse where greedy, hungry men come to get theirs doesn’t strike me as that much safer. I’m not sure why they decided to not ensconce her at the Nightfort, unless it’s just too far to be practical as a place to have her stay.

    I wonder where her storyline is going. Bringing her to the whorehouse seems like a terrible idea for many reasons.

  394. Lonmouth
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    If someone is upset with something they see on the show, well, stop watching. Nobody wants to hear whining. Take your soap box elsewhere.

  395. Mirax
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    I find the difference between the book and show depictions of the sept scene to be bothersome because of the grey nature in the book. He should have stopped in the books, but her eventual consent makes it believable that she doesn’t view it as rape. I don’t think that would be at all believable in the show. That eventual consent makes the fact that she asks Jaime to become the Hand after Tywin dies much more believable to me. It’s hard to imagine a woman who was raped asking her rapist to help her rule the kingdom.

    As far as the people who are saying we should wait and see how it plays out, I don’t have much hope for it playing out well, or being in any sense a justifiable change. There was an uproar about the Dany/Drogo wedding night change and it wasn’t ever addressed in the show. I have no real reason to believe that this change will really be addressed, either.

  396. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    mariamb: Bringing her to the whorehouse seems like a terrible idea for many reasons.

    She cuts him down in a way that summarizes it perfectly. “Easier for you, maybe.” Yes, easier for him. And he promises to visit her. How nice for him.

  397. Mister Stonheart
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    JamesL: rape at Craster’s Keep next week. The show has always tended to shy away from the sexual violence in the books but they couldn’t have picked a worse episode to bring that part of the story into show now following all this controversy over the Jamie Cersei scene.

    It’s funny, but I have the exact opposite reaction. Sam’s actor seems barely able to lift an eyebrow in his scenes and always has an half-expression on his face, nothing fully realized. Detached acting.

  398. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Mister Stonheart,

    Your responding to a totally different comment I made but I disagree, John Bradley is fantastic as Sam.

  399. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    My problem is not because I had some disillusion that Jaime was fits some knight in shining armor trope. He’s a flawed character who has done some terrible things. But if you read the book, it’s clear that Cersei’s initial objections stem from the place and her fear of being caught. That colors the entire scene differently. If her entire objections in the show were in line with that and then she acted the way she did in the books once it was happening, I wouldn’t have an issue with the show depiction.

  400. Ritas Smith
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Reading Jaime’s interview after the episode made it more clear why they did it almost as a rape scene although he said it was very hard for him to get into what was wanted but it was to show that he is really feeling “powerless” etc. Thought it was a well done scene and no his character arc is not going to be bad guy to good guy or knight in shining armor in one fell swoop.

    Also Arya keeps getting hints about her death doesn’t she.

    And finally, is Littlefinger speaking differently. Seems like he went out of his way to sound diabolical.

    Almost finally, Tomen is being set up for sure to be the “good king”

  401. fuelpagan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    I recall the book having Cersei telling Jaime “No” several times and Jaime ignoring her protests until she consents. The difference has to do with Jaime arriving in KL earlier in the show and already being rejected by Cersei. For the books this scene was their reunion which afterward Cersei rejects Jaime. I just don’t see how, with the changes to Jaime’s arrival, you can keep Cersei’s rejection of Jaime consistent, but this one time consent without it appearing to start out as a rape. I thought the act was very close to the book in how Cersei first refused Jaime but eventually stopped resisting. How the act started had to change based on the other changes already made. I’m not condoning rape by any means. But I did feel that Jaime was desperately wanting Cersei to remember what they had together.

    I thought having Daario fight the champion was brilliant. Plays perfectly into why Dany would lust after this guy. Also enjoyed Dany sending the message to the slaves of Meereen.

    The part that bothered me was Sam sending Gilly to Molestown, then finding out in the next scene the Wildlings are coming up and destroying villages in the hopes of drawing out the NW. What’s he going to do? Rush back and get her? If Sam goes north again to wipe out those are Craster’s, this may make sense why D&D would have Sam store Gilly away.

    I also miss Davo’s pointing out 2 is not 3. I’m puzzled why Balon is still around. I guess whatever is going on with the North makes sense with Balon alive and he’ll die once whatever happens in Moat Calin runs its course.

    I thought this was a solid episode and look forward to seeing how everything plays out.

  402. ebb5
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    I loved the episode and the word “rape” never even occurred to me after watching the scene. I am surprised that this is the main topic here.

    If you think about it in a vacuum then anytime a woman says no and sex continues it is technically rape, but given the nature of their relationship and how the scene played out to me, it was Jaime just being forceful and Cercei basically objecting in the beginning due to the inappropriateness of the situation. It seemed to me ultimately that she consented.

    I guess I have to watch it again, but it seemed to me as if she was kissing him back. In the end, both of these characters have abhorrent morality and I don’t get the outrage over this particular scene. I don’t think that anyone could argue before this scene that Jaime was a moral and honorable man. He just is not a sociopath like Cercei. She feels no guilt over her faults and doesn’t even believe that they are faults.

    Jaime at least recognizes the injustice of his actions even if he doesn’t care enough not to commit them. So he is a more grey character than she is, but he clearly has a history of doing things that would put him in prison in today’s world. He is conflicted about his morality and she is sure that she IS moral.

  403. Tony
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Sure enough…. tons of reactions about ‘the’ scene rather than the rest of the episode which had some great scenes.

    As far as the ‘rape’ goes i definitely think there is a scale. It might be semi-consensual. They know each other, have had sex before and now she doesnt really feel like it. You can explain it either way really…

    I loved Tywin’s speech.

    I did not expect the Littlefinger reveal to be at the start. Thought that (and Dontos getting his reward) would be the end of the episode with Sansa running away being the start.

    Sean C.:
    The staging of Sansa’s escape was godawful.No sense of the passage of time, no guards or obstacles, they’re like fifteen metres away when Cersei starts screaming.Makes escaping look easy, which is ridiculous.I haven’t seen a sequence that ineptly handled since Arya ran out of the Brotherhood’s cave in a hissy fit and tripped over the Hound like three seconds later.

    Have to agree with this. In episode 2 it seemed like she left at least ~90 seconds before everyone supposedly started looking for her. Here we still see Sansa and Dontos 2 seconds before Cersei says ‘where is Sansa?’
    The first shot of Sansa / Dontos should have been them running through the gardens / streets.

  404. NousWanderer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    I’m not sure why there’s a debate as to whether or not Jaime’s act constitutes rape in either the novel or the adaptation. It’s rape. Let’s establish that and move on.

    For those who resist the characterization: The director of the episode called it rape. Most audience members intuitively understand it as a kind of rape. Cersei doesn’t consent, and what consent she does offer in the novels comes after a non-consensual sexual assault has already begun, and is exposed through Jaime’s decidedly biased perspective. In both cases, Jaime forces himself on Cersei’s body. In the show, Jaime thrusts as if penetrating, and in a fashion not dissimilar from the sex scene in the tower at Winterfell. Hopefully audience members aren’t seriously expecting explicit depictions of penetrative sex before they’re convinced that penetrative sex is happening, because that’s unlikely despite what’s so commonly said about HBO’s sexual depiction policies. Any reasonable assessment of the information leads to the conclusion that it was an act of forceful, penetrative rape.

    So the more interesting question becomes: why did Jaime rape Cersei, and what does the rape say about their respective characters? While all rape is morally wrong, there are different kinds of rape, and different contexts in which rape occurs. Different rapes have different meanings which can be explored while still acknowledging the moral weight of rape, and fiction is a useful place to explore these meanings.

    Westeros isn’t modern, and it lacks a modern sensibility. We’ve seen rape after rape in the show. Physically gentle rapes and physically forceful rapes. Rapes via implied manipulation or threat, marital rapes, and more. There is no widespread, enlightened perspective on display outside of the show’s more sensitive and brainy characters (examples: Sam or Tyrion–but even he will pay for the services of professionals).

    Jaime, if anything, is a somewhat independent figure in the context of Westeros, and while his personal values might extend to saving Brienne – someone he feels doesn’t deserve to have anything as foul as rape at the hands of Locke’s men befall her – they do not necessarily prohibit him from raping Cersei at the Sept. He clearly would define the act as something other than rape. Why?

    Jaime and Cersei have a long, deranged relationship characterized by perpetual transgressiveness, manipulation, and secrecy. Cersei has manipulated or enticed Jaime for years. For his part, Jaime has fought wildly to retain his position at Cersei’s side, making huge personal sacrifices to achieve proximity to her (even when she’d rather he not). They’re locked in a perpetual struggle. Their sex has previously been portrayed as aggressive and physically consuming, which seems to be par for the course, as far as they’re concerned. And do we remember Jaime’s words? “And if he does, I’ll kill him, Ned Stark, the king, the whole bloody lot of them until you and I are the only people left in this world.” How about this one: “I murdered people so I could be here with you!”

    Jaime does love Cersei, but he views this love as something he’s condemned to suffer – a kind of cosmic fate doled out by reckless gods, or a part he’s bound to play. It’s something he views as outside his control, like a disease, or a curse. We find him having suffered greatly in an attempt to return to his love. He was kept chained, in rags, after fighting his father’s war. He murdered one of his own cousins in an attempt to escape. He has been beaten and tortured. He’s now short one hand, and an important hand at that. And what does he find waiting for him when he finally returns to his love? Her coldness. She rejects him. Perhaps some part of Cersei, so clearly hateful of her lot as a woman, always viewed Jaime as her male expression — a kind of avatar for the powers wrongly denied her by her birth. And perhaps some part of her always resented Jaime for the fact that his biggest priority was her, and not the acquisition of power. Cersei truly believes that she’s the only Lannister sibling who has ever taken her father’s words seriously. Her love was always commingled with resentment. But now Jaime has been unmanned. And he’s late. He has failed her. She has no room for empathy or understanding: she defines him solely by how his absence affected her. She functionalizes him and reduces him. He is a tool — once a fine tool, but now something altogether broken. Yet…

    If only he can do this one thing: kill Tyrion. It’s as if she’s saying “Kill your brother, Jaime. Do this thing for me. Do another thing for me, and I will give myself to you.” He seeks to comfort her, and she pulls away, reminding him of his place.

    This is where Jaime loses it. He curses the gods for condemning him to love a “hateful woman”, and he “takes” (read: rapes) what he believes is his. This is a refusal to bow to her demands, and it’s a refusal to harm his brother. I don’t think the show made great pains to establish that Cersei “eventually consented”, but I don’t think it had to. It’s rape either way, with similar fallout either way, with similar baggage either way. I completely believe that show Cersei’s capable of “eventually consenting” as she does in the books, and that the psychological black pit of their union could finally be lit by a dim, sick, and sadly familiar light before it concludes, but it doesn’t matter to me that she does or doesn’t. I view the scene as psychologically intelligible despite this lack. It still speaks to who these characters are.

    An aside about this: in both the show and the novel, Cersei is clearly non-consenting at first. But the novels have a weird tendency to portray women as non-consenting before they succumb to countervailing emotions “in the moment”. Some might read this as a fixation or desire by the showrunners to turn everything into rape, but I view it as a more plausible and less romanticized depiction of these bad acts. I thought this was one of the real improvements to Dany’s arc in season one when compared with its original iteration in the novel: it made little sense for this young, frightened woman to eventually “consent” to Drogo in a weirdly “romantic” turn only to spend the next indefinite period of time complaining about bed sores while thinking up ways to kill herself. It read as if Martin was deliberately softening a deeply uncomfortable scene in effort to distance himself from the truth of the act he was penning. As such, I found the show’s handling of the same material – where Dany only learns to invest herself in Drogo as a way of making the most of her situation (and ultimately improving it), with love developing unexpectedly thereafter, to be more sensible and effective as an arc.

    The same kind of thinking applies here, with the caveat being that I don’t think the show is heightened or diminished for its choice to “make things more explicitly rapey”. It felt honest and ugly and effective.

    Some attention must be paid to concerns about “throwing away seasons of character development” or “annihilating Jaime’s character”. I couldn’t disagree more. People want Jaime to transform into the show’s leading white knight, but that isn’t going to happen. It’s understandable that they want that void to be filled, but defaulting to traditional redemption arcs in effort to understand Jaime means missing a lot.

    He does have a redemptive arc, but it’s an arc wherein he learns to value – confidently – his capacity to make decisions he wants to make, for himself, and for his reasons. What’s significant to Jaime about his confession to Brienne is not that we all learn the truth of what really happened through it, as if the scene was just some kind of expository device, but that Brienne accepts his choice and is willing to call him by his name thereafter. Jaime is ultimately validated by his relationship with Brienne–validated as a living, breathing, choosing person. He believes himself capable of goodness insofar as it is usually defined by how others receive and interpret our good acts. He might, even a little, believe in knighthood again.

    Cersei, on the other hand, repeatedly strips Jaime of his will. He’s anchored to her, and he’s sickened by his own emotions. He has never known another woman, he has never strayed from her side. Anchored.

    As twisted as the scene was, it was a way of signaling that those chains are broken, and cannot be reforged. Jaime, in a very ugly act in a very surreal location beside a bastard corpse representing a dead or dying idea of love, makes his severance. Yes, he was the rapist. Yes, he should be judged for his choices. But in a miserable moment where Cersei was tearful, in a show rife with rape and death, I think I came away with a better sense of how both characters are crying.

  405. Darkstar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Rape, schmape………….

    I was more bothered by the Elyo (Elio) mention in the Shireen/Davos scene.

    Just fucking no

  406. Chris
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    In the book, like a hundred men rape a mental deficient young woman at the street (during riot in season two– not on show). Discuss

  407. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Tatters:
    Rabid Grunt,

    So if it isnt entertaining?
    Then what?

    Then waste even more time gong online and moaning about it on internet forums. Because, as everyone knows, nothing is more fulfilling than that.

  408. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Tatters:
    Rabid Grunt,

    So if it isnt entertaining?
    Then what?

    Then waste even more time going online and moaning about it on internet forums. Because, as everyone knows, nothing is more fulfilling than that.

  409. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Well I’ve read about 80% of the comments so far (so many so early, thanks rape).

    My unsullied sister was so upset by “the scene” I had to bust out the book and show her how it played out there. Do D&D realize how much unsullied women love his character?

    What I really don’t understand is people saying the whole episode was so great, it was full of character assasination and filler:

    Rape…

    Sam abandons Gilly, even though he knows wildlings are south of the wall, I thought he was supposed to be smart. (in fact doesn’t Jon clear Mole’s Town in the book before the attack from the south).

    The Hound becomes a thief. I might not have minded this as much if he didn’t just say last episode that he is not one. Maybe one writer should pen back to back eps every once in a while…

    I also agree about LF’s wierd way of talking. It seems he started pronouncing S as SH in the second season. It’s like he’s invented a new accent.

  410. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    fuelpagan:

    thought having Daario fight the champion was brilliant. Plays perfectly into why Dany would lust after this guy. Also enjoyed Dany sending the message to the slaves of Meereen.

    I also miss Davos pointing out 2 is not 3. I’m puzzled why Balon is still around. I guess whatever is going on with the North makes sense with Balon alive and he’ll die once whatever happens in Moat Calin runs its course.

    1 – Yes, agreed re Daario. Well handled, and the wink and kissing the knife brought out the douche factor nicely that Ed Skrein had in spades.

    2 – I’ll say it again, and every week until it happens. The longer Balon remains alive, the greater the chance of a Kingsmoot early in Season 5.

  411. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Darkstar:
    I was more bothered by the Elyo (Elio) mention in the Shireen/Davos scene.

    Wow…and in an episode that GRRM didn’t write! For all the bitching that Elio does about the show, perhaps this implied reference was an olive branch?

    Just think…last summer/fall, when we found out that the innkeeper’s daughter was cast, we were all hot and bothered about how far the showrunners would go to depict that rape by the Mountain and his men (per ASoS canon).

    Ramsay and fake Arya, here we go!

  412. Ritas Smith
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Well said.

  413. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Okay, here’s the book scene:

    “You shall,” Cersei promised. “There’s to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you’ll want him dead as much as I do.” She touched his face. “I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that.” She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

    There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”

    “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

    But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this…”

    Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.

    ASOS:Jamie VII.

    The TV version clearly came across as more “a bit of a rape.” IMO the book version is better.

  414. AnneMarie Bowman
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    This was very well said. Thank you for taking the time to completely analyse these characters and spell it all for people. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT. All if it. You totally get it. I just hope more people read what you wrote and finally get it too. Now please copy this and paste onto the comment section on that article at the AV Club so maybe you might get that shit stirrer to understand.

    http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

  415. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Let’s just call a spade a spade…

    The rape is the last mis-step related to the huge mistake of bringing Jaime back to KL early:

    1. They rush him home at the end of last season so that he and Cersei can exchange a wordless awkward stare.

    2. They share one scene this season where she breaks off their relationship because… he wasn’t there, weak writing.

    3. How the hell is Brienne not running into Ser Loras Tyrell the Knight of Flowers?! I guess he doesn’t love Renly as much in the show as he was so quick to screw LF’s boy but am I supposed to believe he would just walk by Brienne of Tarth at the wedding and have nothing to say to her? He was Lord Commander of Renly’s Kingsguard.

    4. The rape, which may have made more sense to change if this was their first meeting after his captivity.

    5. A minor point is that it was very interesting in the book for him to hear about his son’s death in an inn as he’s about to arrive at KL. His thoughts about how he was never allowed to treat Joff as a son and feels nothing are incredibly revealing for his character, and they could have easily had him voice this to Brienne.

  416. Paul Meyer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    I have to say that this was one of the shows finest episodes to date. This is due to how they showed the aftermath of the purple wedding. There were a lot of good parts to this episode but there were a few that stuck out to me. Like the ending scene with Danny was amazing due to her speech. The part with Tyrion and Pod really choked me up because it shows you like Tyrion even said how loyal of a squire he was. There was plenty more but all in all it was a great episode and Alex Graves is a hell of a director. Also one last thing, the whole Jaime/Cersei sex scene was kinda effed up but for people who haven’t read the books understand that scene was in there and it’s important for where Jaime’s character goes from here so stop bitching about it.

  417. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,
    I also commend you for your well-thought comment. Thx. The “chain-breaker” metaphor is quite appropriate and relevant for this episode. J & C are done as a couple as of that emphatically-depicted moment. Also, Sansa is no longer “chained” to the Lannisters. Then there is the obvious Dany scene with her broken manacles. Well done, sir.

  418. fuelpagan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Well put. Jaime is the closest example Westeroes has to a white knight, who’s critical flaw is his love for Cersei. The scene in the sept reinforces this flaw of his. I feel Jaime’s character arc grows much less than most people think it does. Most of what appears as growth isn’t really growth, but just revealing the true nature of Jaime’s character to the reader/audience. His true growth comes in recognizing Cersei’s true nature and seeing past outer beauty to ones inner beauty, as he begins to with Brienne.

    The character growth in the Sept scene is him recognizing Cersei as a spiteful person.

  419. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,

    The Hound contradicting himself was the point of the scene,
    also the wildlings were far less in the show, that the nightswatch knew about before the village attack. They were no treat, the thenns were.
    They are making changes not filler.

    You need to get over this or you are going to be bothered more and more over the shows run.

  420. Ser Hound
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Come on, guys. It was rape in the book too. Yeah yeah, she consented “in the end”, but lots of people would argue that it still constitutes rape. Yes, it was presented in a more brutal way in the episode, but I don’t see it “ruining” Jaime’s character development. It’s a low point for him at KL, but a crucial part of what will be Jaime’s character arc this season.

  421. Headhunter
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    One of the most depressing things in the world is the reaction of some people to rape. No matter how horrible, NOBODY deserves to get raped. Anyone saying Cersei deserved it is very messed up. It’s the same with anyone saying Jamie was a good guy. He threw a child out of a window. There is no redemption from that for me. It confuses me when people say Cersei is the worst, Joffrey is the worst etc. I love the books and the show but most of these characters are bad people. How do you decide who is worse? Some people seem to think it is worse when a woman behaves this way. How can people condemn Cersei but at the same time celebrate someone like the Hound who enjoys murdering people? That is ridiculous and clearly sexist. It’s the same with a few people treating Dany and Drogo like this great love story when he raped her and would have continued to do so had she not approached him for sex after Doreah told her too. The fact that it is fictional doesn’t change the morality.

  422. KZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    It’s not just filming Jaime and Cersei’s scene as a rape that was a problem, but the lack of the follow up, which was more important to the story line overall than the actual sex. They filmed the sex and initial protests, left out where Cersei gives in and makes it pretty clear that she only didn’t want to because she was afraid of getting caught, and then they left out the major reason for Cersei and Jaime’s relationship going south, which was that Jaime didn’t want to continue keeping it a secret.

    “This was folly”. Cersei pulled her gown straight. “with Father in the castle… Jaime, we must be careful.” (note this is further evidence that Tywin doesn’t believe the rumors about them)

    “I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.”

    She drew back. “That’s not funny.”
    “Do you hear me chuckling?”
    “Did you leave your wits at Riverun?” Her voice had an edge to it.
    “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.”
    “He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.”

    He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted.

    Cersei recoiled from his stump. “Don’t… don’t talk like this. You’re scaring me Jaime. Don’t be stupid. One wrong word and you will cost us everything. What did they do to you?
    “They cut off my hand.”
    No, it’s more, you’re changed.” She backed off a step. We’ll talk later….

    Of course the timing was also different, seeing as this was the first time they had seen each other since Jaime’s return in the book, where in the show Cersei has already rejected Jaime once and they have been reunited for a while.

  423. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,

    I take an exception. It makes way more sense now, after weeks of rejection. It’s a terrible act, but not without context, thanks to Cersei’s inability to accept a metaphorically emasculated Jaime who can’t swing a sword right anymore. He’s had enough of her denial of his advances and he finally isolated her in the Sept.

  424. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Everyones alreay Harped on the rape scene so ill leave that alone. But we got a lot of Gendry Highlights. Is that just because they wanted to Highlight the leached and davos sending him off or are we going to get Gendry sometime soon?

  425. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    KZ,

    We haven’t seen a follow-up because the season isn’t over! That doesn’t mean there isn’t any. Nobody on either side of the argument will be fully informed until that happens.

    Sorry, I have a particular dislike of reactionary criticism that springs from impatience. It’s no secret that shows like GoT are best viewed in chunks to achieve their full effect. It isn’t a neatly packaged package of blood and laughs designed to make the most of every week. Let’s just wait for next week’s episode, eh?

  426. Josh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    Oh boy Vulture just ripped into Game of Thrones. The hipsters have turned! I hope this scene doesn’t overtake Game of Thrones like it has this episode. I can’t help but feel we’ll be hearing about it the next couple of weeks.

  427. Maynard Plumm
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Frankly, I’m more upset that Littlefinger tossed the necklace than I am about the rape that was or wasn’t. I’m actually feeling some pity for those that believe Jaime’s “redemptive arc” is (and/or is supposed to be) smooth and unbroken. Honestly, I feel this was a minor change, and I was rather surprised this morning when I noticed all the controversy.

    Now, about Jaime NOT getting his red wings… :P

  428. JohnnySD
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    JamesL: pe at Craster’s Keep next week. The show has always tended to shy away from the sexual violence in the books but they couldn’t have picked a worse episode to bring that part of the story into show now following all this contr

    I quite disagree. I think she is fantastic.

  429. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Headhunter,

    The ones making those awful comments are thankfully a minority. Rape is horrific, and to say someone deserves it lies between ignorance and monstrosity.

    However, I find those harping on about it concerning this episode to be cartoonish in their own right. How about examining the instance of this terrible act in its context, with its layers? Plenty of people on both sides of the argument barely scratch the surface of the actual substance of the work at hand. NousWanderer has the most measured say on the subject I’ve seen yet, here or anywhere.

  430. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    KZ:
    It’s not just filming Jaime and Cersei’s scene as a rape that was a problem, but the lack of the follow up, which was more important to the story line overall than the actual sex.They filmed the sex and initial protests, left out where Cersei gives in and makes it pretty clear that she only didn’t want to because she was afraid of getting caught, and then they left out the major reason for Cersei and Jaime’s relationship going south, which was that Jaime didn’t want to continue keeping it a secret.

    Of course the timing was also different, seeing as this was the first time they had seen each other since Jaime’s return in the book, where in the show Cersei has already rejected Jaime once and they have been reunited for a while.

    Winner. Again, difference is her comments color the scene completely differently regarding what her problem with it was.

  431. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Josh,

    I wouldn’t say she ripped into it. It was a confirmation of the act of rape being depicted. Ultimately, the writer takes the wait-and-see position concerning whether or not the show will address the consequences of what happened. It’s a fair position.

  432. fuelpagan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    I must also talk about Tywin’s lesson with Tommen. Tywin clearly blames Cersei for Joffrey’s behavior and this was him taking the ropes in Tommen’s upbringing. You could feel the tension as Tywin was admonishing Cersei for Tommen not already knowing what makes a good King, then stripping him from under her wing to his own. When you compare this to season 1 where Cersei was tutoring Joffrey in how he can change history to whatever he wants it to be because he looked weak in front of Sansa, you can see Cersei never completely understood Tywin’s teachings and he can’t allow her to raise Tommen.

    I love how the whole scene had this underlying, “you had your chance with the dead king before you and you screwed him up Cersei, now it is my turn to do it right. Hand him over!” between Cersei and Tywin.

    Brilliant!

  433. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    I am fuming at how they wrote this episode.

    They had ample opportunities to show full frontal penis. Jaimes. Oberyns. Olyvers. Champion of Mereen. Daario. Edd. Total failure.

  434. fluffywarthog
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Did the show make up a king during Tywin’s lecture to Tommen? He got that Baelor died of starving himself, but the next king he mentioned sounded like “Aerys” or “Orys.”

    Aerys I reigned for twelve years, and was noted as a weak king, with no reforms to speak of. He was succeeded by his brother, Maekar, but there’s no indication that Maekar had murdered him.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_I_Targaryen

    The only Orys in ASOIAF is Orys Baratheon, the bastard half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror. While he was founder of the Baratheon line and a right hand to Aegon I, he was never king.

    The only king who ruled for only a year was Viserys II, longtime Hand to his nephews Aegon II and Baelor. He came to the crown an old man and died quickly, but is assumed to have done a fair amount of poisoning himself, having assassinated the High Septon (the boy mentioned in Tywin’s speech) and is rumored to have killed Baelor the Blessed himself.

    Anyone else notice this?

  435. AnneMarie Bowman
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Headhunter,

    NousWanderer has the most measured say on the subject I’ve seen yet, here or anywhere.

    I totally agree. I feel like this eloquently stated and well thought out essay should be distributed everywhere around the internet, to all who had a knee jerk, heat of the moment reaction to that scene. They’re all thinking in black and white. Can we remember why we like this saga so much? Because of the grey?

  436. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,
    i cant think of any rapes which have happened on the show so far which have been off screen, other than the ones which happened in the past (tysha, elia) and one which didnt go very far (it might not have evven started) in Season 3 with Brienne.
    At the time I writing the comment I couldnt think of any scenes already in the show which are rape, but when thinking about it some more, there at least 3 rape scenes in danys arc in Season 1/ aGoT alone. The first at least begins with rape, on Danys wedding night to Drogo, then there is another scene which has Dany being raped by Drogo, and she is crying, and the show implies, and the books outright state, that being raped by Drogo is part of Dany’s daily routine. Then there is a scene when they are plundering a village of the Lhazarene, where several dothraki are raping a group of lhazarene women, of whom Mirri Maaz Duur is one of.

  437. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Hey, remember when people freaking out over Kahl Drogo raping Dany, because it didn’t happen in the book but was happening in the show. Sure, she never said “no” but it was clear she was being raped. And then that relationship changed and it was wonderful and everyone just laughed because it was butterflies and unicorns of love.

    Which makes it worse. Because it suggests all you have to do is rape your victim enough and they’ll fall in love with you.

    But those of you flipping out over this are hypocrites so why toss logic into this ridiculous argument.

  438. KZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    The follow up happened directly after the sex. Having it happen at some other time removes the entire point of the sex in furthering their story line. It also removes the context which further clarifies that Cersei was in no way troubled about having sex with Jaime, she was troubled about getting caught having sex with Jaime.

  439. Zeus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Wow, the internet exploded. Again.

  440. Shock Me
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Tyroli,

    Don’t forget the three women Brienne cut down from hanging from a tree put there by Stark men.

  441. Naomi
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Leto II,

    Yes it was rape! Of course it was. Why on earth would that forced, non-consensual sex NOT be rape?!

  442. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    I find it ironic that the people who are angry with the rape scene do not think Jaime raped her in the books. You guys are the ones who need to reevaluate your definition of rape.

    This scene did not come out of nowhere.

  443. Annara Snow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Chris:
    In the book, like a hundred men rape a mental deficient young woman at the street (during riot in season two– not on show).Discuss

    None of these men were supposed to be sympathetic/on the road of redemption, or generally staunchly against rape.

    End of discussion.

  444. Deekan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    I think it is a little funny that on all the reviews I’ve checked out the UNSULLIED appear to be more concerned about the fact that Ygritte killed a loving father and seem to just take the rape in stride as one of the hazards of watching such a morally grey show.

  445. Shock Me
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    +1000 This is exactly what I was trying to get at. Well done.

  446. ShortHills
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Quick question I’m not a bookreader but does Sam ever mention to Jon Snow that he saw Bran? I don’t think he mentioned it last season or this one so far.

  447. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Okay, I slept on it, and I decided I still hate the way the sept scene was depicted. I do sort of agree that it shows Jaime’s darker side, even if I believe it wasn’t rape in the book. I just wish they would have kept Cersei’s reaction the same. Let unsullied viewers decide after that. But they went with the hate rape the woman who dumped me card. Oh well. What’s done is done. I just hope they follow up on the scene and don’t ignore it.

  448. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I expect lots more Jaime.

  449. sunspear
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    The scene with Dany worked because in both the show and books, Drogo repeatedly rapes Dany after that night. The change just made for an actual transition.

    That and the fact that Drogo is a rapist, and Jaime isn’t. So there was no character assassination.

  450. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    The show really needs to get a move on with Stannis. Are they not even going to acknowledge the war to the north? Are they seriously going for a surprise after the scene in the finale last year? It gives me some hope that at some point Davos will bring it up again and tell him about winning the iron throne by saving the realm. Right now his scenes are getting repetitive. It’s a long way from Dragonstone to the Wall, especially with a pit stop in Braavos. Get going already!

  451. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: Hey, remember when people freaking out over Kahl Drogo raping Dany, because it didn’t happen in the book but was happening in the show. Sure, she never said “no” but it was clear she was being raped. And then that relationship changed and it was wonderful and everyone just laughed because it was butterflies and unicorns of love.
    Which makes it worse. Because it suggests all you have to do is rape your victim enough and they’ll fall in love with you.
    But those of you flipping out over this are hypocrites so why toss logic into this ridiculous argument.

    Except that wasn’t what happened, at all, and that wasn’t what it suggested at all. We saw Dany being raped, we saw her getting casually raped on a regular basis. So she was looking for a way to find some power over him to make her life more bearable, it was suggested that she be more proactive in bed and make him do what she wants intead of the other way around. While experimenting with this, she and Drogo ended up developing a rapport which was unexpected but all in all a welcome development, and in the end it turned into love. It wasn’t “rape is love” or “rape leads to love”. And for that matter this is much better for me than the book version where Drogo is a violent barbarian who is also a kind and sensitive guy who is like totally attentive to her needs from day one.

  452. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Well said, Wanderer.

    I remember an ethics class discussing moral virtue, and rape was the only action that everyone agreed was morally wrong in every instance. I think the only other action that was even considered ballpark was female genital mutilation. It’s interesting that this show, and the story it’s based on, has the power to bring into serious discussion the weight of the actions of characters with whom we are learning to relate (Jaime) and characters we generally despise (Cersei), by flipping the roles and destroying our expectations, yet again (this guy we thought was on track for redemption is now clearly the aggressor and the woman we despise is now a victim, of rape).
    I don’t remember feeling that way while reading- Perhaps I am not sensitive enough to the subject matter, but my takeaway from the scene in the book was that it was a demonstration of how fucked up and dysfunctional and totally broken their relationship is- not how Jaime raped her. I have a somewhat new light on both characters now with the show’s depiction, as terrible as it was to watch. That they chose to focus on the rape aspect of this scene is interesting, if also disturbing, but is definitely deserving of the discussion it’s sparked.

    (and I am NOT stepping into a debate of whether or not this rape, or any other, was right or wrong, or whether this constituted rape or not),

  453. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Dude quit being such a drama queen. They already set it up for Stannis to head to the wall since last years finale so calm the fuck down already.

  454. Joh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    This episode was very disorienting for me.

    I am one of those obsessive, obnoxious, know-it-all ASOIAF fans who has read all the books and short stories a dozen times. My encyclopedic knowledge of the series is the stuff of nerd legend.

    But this was the first episode that was entirely original content. Sure, a few scenes mirrored those in the books – Jaime and Cersei in the sept, Sansa and Littlefinger on the boat, Arya and the Hound meeting the farmer, the champion of Mereen – but they played out very differently than in the books.

    It was very strange to not have any idea what was coming next, and to end the episode feeling like the rest of the season will be a complete surprise.

    It is a new experience, but not a bad one. I’ve never expected a direct adaptation of the books anyway, but rather a retelling of the story set in an alternate world. Like a reboot. Yeah, that’s it, a reboot.

    Bring it on, D&D! I am super excited to see how season 4 plays out.

  455. Ozymandias
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    This has to be the most polarizing episode of the entire series, strangely I thought it was as good as ever…

    I’m still disappointed by some of the reactions that are completely over the top…
    I think Game of Thrones is the only show that has this type of fans…too passionate man. Not that I’m complaining but when something is wrong they let the whole world know.

    I still can’t wait for 404 but I’m a bit jaded at the moment.

  456. dubnoxious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Guys we gotta stop using the word ‘rapey’ – it was rape. It wasn’t rapeish or rapeesque or rapey – it was just rape. Period.

    And I don’t understand the need to change that scene (or the first time Dany sleeps with Khal Drogo for that matter). It fits neither Cersei or Jaime as characters. The explanation that it was rape, but became consensual is even MORE problematic for a thousand reasons.

  457. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Well, 3 episodes in and they haven’t mentioned it. I’m just reacting to what I am reading from the unsullied, as they provide the clearest look into how the show is doing at telling the story. Can you really say most of Stannis’ scenes aren’t becoming repetitive? Stannis is angry at Davos. Got it. How will Stannis deride Davos next? Tune in next week to find out!

  458. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Alternative title for this episode: “The one Where we Stop Whitewashing the characters…except for Tyrion.”

    Good episode overall. I am going to wait for future episodes to see how the writers address the scene in the Sept. My initial reaction: that was awful. It seems like they attempted to film the scene to be ambiguous in regards to whether the sex was consensual and sold it short of the necessary nuances for it to suggest otherwise than what many of us have interpreted. I would dissect the scene and give arguments towards that ambiguity in terms of the future of Jaime’s arc in the series going forward and in comparison to the books, but this is a sensitive issue and i feel for now i will keep my own counsel on how to anticipate the rest of the season in regards to this alteration. To be frank: I am in full agreement with NousWanderer, with slight reservations towards D and D from a business standpoint as to why thye chose to possibly risk the prospect of series longevity by underlining an act that we all have to walk on eggshells about whenever it creeps into conversation. To wit, Lying, profanity stealing killing and explicit scenes of sexuality are tolerated to an extent but D & D may have pushed the envelope in the wrong area. I am curious to what fallout will be.

  459. Tony
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    What i just thought of…
    It’s funny / sad that this time Tyrion was reduced to Sansa’s prop rather than the other way around. I sure would have loved to see Tyrion’s response to his arrest but this time we stayed with Sansa. I see no reason why they couldnt have done both though…

  460. Summer is Coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Leaving the Cersei-Jaime controversy aside, I want to point some facts:

    1. Hannah Murray (Gilly) has been upgraded to Main Cast. the follow-up: Why? Gilly is categorically a supporting character. I see a Joe Dempsie precedent here. Weird how this things with the cast work..

    2. I tried to like Aidan Gillen’s take on LF, but I simply can’t buy that voice.

    3. The editing this episode had some hiccups… it really seemed this episode was rushed through production.

    4. Speaking of cast & rushed editing: some actors were credited despite not appearing (Pycelle, Varys, Brienne), while others appeared, yet were not credited (Barristan).

    5. And lastly, for the Love of Lord of Light, why don’t these characters address each other by their names?? Examples: Tywin: “Tommen, what traits do kings need?”, Jaime: “Cersei, I want to create a controversy with you”, Daenerys: “Drogon, Dracarys!”, Olenna: “Marge, my beloved niece, don’t be hasty” etc.
    Oh and yes, when Tywin is talking about Robert, couldn’t he said to Tommen “Robert, your father…”; as if he was talking about this strange, long-forgotten king.
    I am pointing this out, because addressing their names brings a more close and concentrated relationship between characters. Brings a warmth and a natural feel in the dialogue.

  461. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think thats the point, their entire situation is a dire and desperate meta-siege. Its about who can stand longest.
    I expect the iron bank to be their next destination though.

  462. OIRYS FOREL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    It wasnt even rape anyway….cersei cleary kissed him and hey if im about to be raped I wouldnt be kissing the Raper? Rapper?? Rape-eee????

  463. Tabes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    An all around great episode. Love the little historical nuggets they are sprinkling in, especially the guest right reference. For the people calling for character assassination I couldn’t disagree more. The Hound for example said he wasn’t a thieve in a previous episode but then he ripped those nice people off and people are all up in arms because his actions contradicted what he said. The Hound is not a good guy, he’s not an especially honorable guy either. In fact, he’s the kind of guy that would say he believes in something or lives by a code and then turn right around and break that same code the next day. And as far as all the “rape” stuff, it’s straight up overblown imo. Everyone wants Jamie to be a good guy now and he’s one of the farthest away from being a one-dimensional character this show has to offer. He’s got a deep dark side to him, especially when it comes to matters with Cersei. He threw a child out a window and exclaimed “the things I do for love” remember? Now I will say the way it was depicted in the show was jarring to me at first too, but I’m willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and it is realistic. He loves this woman, he yearns for this woman, he hasn’t gotten it on with her or anyone else in a very long time and she continues to refuse him. Here is a guy whose self-esteem just took a gigantic hit when his sword hand got lopped off and now the woman he loves continually refuses him. He is hurting, he is frustrated, and he lost all control. It’s terrible yes, but believable? Absolutely.

  464. Bean of Westeros
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Only one other person found the Gilly/Sam scenes boring? I thought they really took the steam out of the episode and slowed it down terribly. With screen time so precious, they are not in the top ten characters I want to see.

    Apart from everything that was upsetting about this episode, I did quite enjoy a few things:

    Lady Olenna on her dead husband, “The great doughy lump I sat next to…”

    Tyrion on Cersei about Joffrey’s murder; “She is the only one I’m certain had nothing to do with this murder. Which makes it unique as King’s Landing murders go.”

    And three cheers for the Hound’s snot rocket!!

  465. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    Tyrion is the bomb… tick tick ticking.
    Cant wait for it to blow.

  466. Bean of Westeros
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Joh,

    I agree! My Unsullied husband keeps asking me; what happens with this? And I have to keep saying, “I don’t know! They changed it!”

    It’s cool to weave in plot surprises for the book readers, no matter how much we want it to be exactly as written.

  467. el
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Get over it was not not rape, she wanted it, sometimes she mewed no, but she really wasn’t fighting him off hardcore, therefore to Jaime she really wanted him, it was the location that was bothering her.

    That’s how it came across to me too. She wanted it. She just didn’t really want it there with her son’s dead body next to them.

  468. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Bean of Westeros,

    I thought they spent too much time with Sam and Gilly too. The show does not do romance well, and it’s made worse when it is between two fairly mundane characters. I’m guessing this was the selfish decision John Bradley said Sam makes. I see it as a stupid decision, given he knows a wildling raiding party is south of the Wall, but I’m not sure how it is selfish.

  469. Big Bad Wolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    The very first change that has really angered me in four years. Even if they wanted to show it as “consent” like in the books, they really f*cked it up because that looked like a rape and no matter what they say, everyone will see it as a rape. A dire case of bad directing that resulted in a terribly bad scene.

    Could live with it, anyway.

  470. fuelpagan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    My alternative title would be, “The joy of taking a piss!”

  471. YeOldGods
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    There goes his entire character redemption in the eyes of the hardcore feminists.

    Not sure anyone in their right mind should really care about this small demographic’s reaction to a scene that was, at worst, ambiguous.

    This isn’t directed at anyone in particular…but as a person who doesn’t often comment here, but just kind of lurks, this comment board has gone from general observation-area to veritable bitch-fest.

    If the show is THAT much of an assault on your precious books (and I love the books, too), stop watching.

  472. Justin Snow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Wonderful episode. Best one that’s followed a major event, IMO.

    Loved the stuff at the wall. Really felt for Pod and Tyrion. Enjoyed Tywin’s two scenes. Really going to miss Charles Dance. And a decent scene with the Wildlings attack. Love the QoT.

    Didn’t really care for the sept scene. Luckily everyone has something to argue over now. Didn’t care for it in the books. Didn’t care for it in the show. At this point Cersei and Jamie bore me. If you’re one of the people that is enraged over this change or the scene itself, just take a deep breath and relax. I’m sure D&D will address it in the show moving forward. And luckily it has no effect on you personally.

    I was disappointed with Little Finger’s voice. Maybe working on the Dark Knight Rises, Bane rubbed off on him. I had higher expectations for the Hound and Arya. Would’ve liked to have them stay put for an episode. Gilly and Sam have great chemistry, but it was a poorly written scene(s). And I continue to be pulled out of Dany’s scenes because of the new Daario.

    Really going to miss Alex Graves next season. Can’t wait for next week! Please, Coldhands!

  473. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    By the way, where the heck were the dragons in this episode? Yeah, yeah…I know…the cost of VFX…but it is not like Dany could approach Meereen without her dragons being seen. Did she tell them to hide behind the mountain as her UnSullied army approached the city? Grrrr…

    Caging and hiding them isn’t so easy anymore, as we will soon see!

  474. Jared
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I agree 1000% with everything that you said here. Thank you for providing a balanced, logical, well-reasoned interpretation of a dark and complicated scene. It’s discussions like these that we should be having, as opposed to pointing accusing fingers and making viciously irrational generalizations about the writers, the characters, and each other. Unfortunately, the first instinct of the collective Internet seems to have been to spill their gut feelings in the heat of the moment, or worse, to consciously take the moment as an opportunity to perch their high horse on top of their soapbox and cry out “Shame!” for all the world to hear. Neither one of these courses of action is conducive to an effective interpretation of the scene, and the reasoned discourse that should result from said interpretation. Your thoughts have the substance to place the scene and its consequences in its proper perspective, and ideally, they would form the basis for this conversation. Instead, I fear that they’ll end up getting lost in the midst of an irrational shouting match with less-thoughtful people ranting about this scene ruining the character and/or the show and accusing anyone who attempts to analyze the scene more deeply of utterly nonsensical things like being “pro-rape”. It’s an unfortunate dynamic that I’ve witnessed in less civil forums than this one, and one I fear will never change until people either grow thicker skins or are willing to temper their passion with logic and willingness to listen. Nevertheless, thank you for your words. You’ve certainly given me a lot to think about, and hopefully others as well. Cheers.

  475. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: I just wish they would have kept Cersei’s reaction the same. Let unsullied viewers decide after that. But they went with the hate rape the woman who dumped me card. Oh well. What’s done is done. I just hope they follow up on the scene and don’t ignore it.

    This is a fair point, and should be acknowledged. Cersei’s more complicated reaction would have muddied the waters on Jaime a bit more, though I still read that scene in the book as a rape, with some kind of submission.

  476. Johan Sporre
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Mixed episode; some fantastic scenes (Mereen, Night’s Watch meeting, Wildlings, Tywin+Tommen, Tyrion+Pod, Davos), some good scenes that were drawn out too long (Sam+Gilly) and then the sept scene. After a rewatch I don’t dislike that scene as much. It isn’t much different from the book, but I think they should have made it milder instead of rougher.

    Loved Davos’ alluding to Syrio Forel and Aemon’s chill-inspiring “We are the watchers on the wall”.

  477. Weirdo
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    You’d think normal people would consider rape wrong, not just ‘hardcore feminists’.

    If you have a chip on your shoulder because a feminist once insulted you online or something, fine, but acting like being against rape is just a ‘hardcore feminist’ thing is disturbing.

  478. Joh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Good analysis. :)

    Thanks for posting this.

  479. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Well put and sums up better than I previously said.

  480. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who found this to be possibly the most rushed episode the show has ever done? It felt like five to ten extra minutes could have made the episode one of the best in the show so far, but it made everything seem extremely clunky without those minutes.

    Dany gets to Meereen, the challenger comes, Dany chooses her challenger, Daario defeats him in two seconds (that I actually liked), Dany’s awesome speech and the barrel flinging. All of that happened in like, 5 minutes. Then we get the Wildlings attacking the town, the kid escapes (a well done scene), the kid ends up in castle black in the next shot, the Night’s Watch discuss it. Up to this point it would have been fine- but then there’s a horn and a shot later Edd and Grenn appear saying all they had to say in two sentences… Then the Sansa scene which was great but seemed sped up almost…

    I think they had to deliberately shorten and quicken scenes both in the writing and the editing, and it really shows in the episode. I think I’ll give it an 8.5 just because other than this nitpick it was a pretty good one (especially Dany and the Wall and Sansa). This makes me truly fear for episode 10. I hope that one isn’t as rushed along as this one is, because we do know the finale is jam packed. The finale should be no less than the best GOT episode ever (and even Alex Graves and D&D seem to think so) but now I am legitimately concerned that it won’t be.

    Anyway, I’m glad to see that not many others noticed it. Maybe it’ll be better on rewatch…

  481. TheWilkman
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    house snow,

    Ding Ding Ding!!!

    No matter how many times GRRM has shown us otherwise, people still want to fit characters into neat little black and white, good and evil boxes. Jaime is not a good guy. Yes, he has some redeeming qualities, but you don’t get your slate wiped clean just because you lose a hand, make a few good choices, and one nice bathhouse speech.

  482. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp: Rape is ugly, but Jaime is acting on their romantic precedent and sexual frustration. I’m not condoning the act. It’s just believable considering his former nature as both her lover and a man of action. I think the scene further illustrates the fundamental shift on their dynamic, or current lack thereof.

    Well put, and especially as it relates to the two people involved. The ” monster ” label doesn’t apply here, and GRRM hadn’t written Jaime’s character as one whom would demonstrate a pattern of cruelty towards women. However, within the context of social life in ASOIAF, he wouldn’t have been discouraged from taking advantage of a pretty woman below his status. On a whole, Jaime is arrogant but very much in love with his sister. The onscreen version was meant to be controversial, if a thought to how his character was interpreted by the writers. Adaptations are tricky, but this scene may benefit the season by giving Cersei to mete out more erratic behaviour towards Jaime. He’s given more insight about her as an individual , not his perfect love. Jaime is maturing further and ( hopefully , if the writers continue this path) demonstrates this from hereon. It’s obvious that the production favours his storyline. On the other hand, Cersei’s character is really heating up…… so watch out ! *>*

  483. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    It is disgusting and disturbing in the book, but she does give consent. There IS a difference between the two scenes, and what I find most disturbing is that people aren’t seeing that.

    Ser Pounce:
    KG,

    I found it really rapey and creepy in the books because Jaime raped his sister next to a dead person who was really close to them. what I’m trying to say is it was both rape in the books and in the show and no one is even admitting to that. Call it character assassination or whatever but the scene was really faithful to the source material pal.

  484. Bard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair:
    Okay, here’s the book scene:

    ASOS:Jamie VII.

    The TV version clearly came across as more “a bit of a rape.”IMO the book version is better.

    IMO the TV version is better. I always thought that it’s both unrealistic as well as awkward and a bit distasteful that Cersei consents to have sex with Jaime in front of her dead son, especially after her initial refusal. Yes, they meet here for the first time (which is btw not the case in the show), she has missed him, she’s confused. But still…

    And regarding Jaime, there is of course no excuse for raping a woman and I’m not trying to find one. But he’s never been a knight in shining armor in the books (before and after he met Brienne and lost his hand) and when you look at what he’s been through and the way he was welcomed in King’s Landing, especially by Cersei, his behaviour has some sort of consequence. Plus: Does anyone think he would have stopped in the book scene if Cersei had refused him from the beginning till the end? I don’t.

  485. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I agree essentially with everything you just wrote here. I’d wager the editing process may have been a factor.
    With more meatier scenes due to come, the pacing will likely be mixed, as demonstrated more with this episode, and a bit here and there, as were the previous two. Season 4 is a game changer, both for the script adaptation and particularly events which are emphasized over others.

    I’m really eager with anticipation of fresh takes on the source material and critical at the same time. To keep myself balanced I distinguish what may have failed in the short run and what excelled …… hoping that for whatever reason the production chose these, that continuity down the line outweighs any criticism I have. If that babble makes sense. It may not be for everyone here, but I’m having a difficult time speculating this time around. *>*

  486. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    I will say that the rape scene is one they SHOULD have whitewashed. They could have made it seem a bit more consensual, or something… This doesn’t help Jamie- it’s setting him back and back for the viewers (my mother keeps saying he hasn’t really changed), which kind of sucks in my opinion. Sometimes, you are given opportunities to do things better than in the books, or to do things in a way that’s more apt for this different medium… The show clearly went all the way this time, instead of softening it up like they usually do (and I personally think that’s a mistake- this time).

  487. Balerion The Cat
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    I normally enjoy reading the recap’s comments, but after the first 200 I’m done.
    It was a great episode, loved all the storylines, but I thought the Meereen stuff was the highlight of the episode, very well done.

  488. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Balerion The Cat,

    I agree, controversies are boring… But everyone has to weigh in, it’s inevitable

  489. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Westeros isn’t the real world. They can have potatoes in their Middle-Ages-esque world if they want to.

    And besides, if I never encounter the word “neeps” again, it will be too soon.

  490. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    I think many comments here draw insights from a 21st century perspective. Believe it or not, we have evolved in wisdom and empathy . For the time period which GRRM based his book series on, male aggression insensitivity went unchecked, except for those males principled or pious enough to resist. It’s very well documented that Jaime is in love with Cersei still, and sexually frustrated. Although deplorable, from my POV, he aggressively seeks her affection at an inopportune moment near Joffrey’s entombed body. Cersei did resist initially but she relented, both were pretty worked up over the events and in that moment allowed sexual release. Reading the source material ( thankfully quoted in above comments ) really laid out what really happened. Some comments here are unfortunately reading and choosing one paragraph and ignoring the other. It’s impossible to gain insight by denying the full context . It’s no wonder some folk are confused. Given the relationship between the two people and pattern depicted ( from the text ) from their individual character, it is apparent that they wanted each other ( however inappropriate it began ).

  491. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    I think she does a great job and plays the character perfectly. Gilly isn’t an action-girl heroine, she’s not the life of the party with a razor-sharp wit. She’s an uneducated peasant girl who grew up in an isolated and astonishingly abusive household.

    JamesL:
    I love the actor who plays Sam, he is perfect but the actress playing Gilly is so dull.I would enjoy their scenes together much more if they had a different actress playing Gilly.Does anyone else not like Hannah Murray as Gilly?I find her performance not just dull but also kind of annoying.

  492. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    It is disgusting and disturbing in the book, but she does give consent. There IS a difference between the two scenes, and what I find most disturbing is that people aren’t seeing that.

    I agree.

  493. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    Summer is Coming,

    2 LF’s voice

    I agree! That fake lower voice brought me out of the scene and it just doesn’t jive. Unfortunately, looks like he is going to keep using it anyway. Sigh….

    5 because addressing their names brings a more close and concentrated relationship between characters.

    Actually, to me it would make their relationship seem more distant. If a person is really familiar with another person, they almost never have to use their names when conversing. In fact, I’m more likely to use nicknames when conversing with my intimates than their actual names. I only use their actual names when I’m angry with them. I wonder if this is a cultural thing, maybe? I was raised in the Southern US….so for what it’s worth….we tend to use diminutives to refer to loved ones and real names for negative emotions.

    I would be supportive of their using names more often in conversation if only to help non-readers to keep track of who is who. For that alone it would be worth it.

  494. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    You mean like a website devoted to the discussion of the show? Oh, that’s what this is.

    I know … words are hard (pat pat) You keep working on them, though.

    Lonmouth: han you” concern that rolls over the objections of the human being affected, and it als

  495. WildSeed
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    This maybe the only instance of the production to illustrate life of the peasants , from a close up perspective. The production has been truly mixed on this, giving us quick glimpses each season. There is so much story to tell, but this element must be included. So far some people identify only Wildlings with images of poor folk, which only represent an extreme example. I’m not in support of GoT to blend in so much romance between certain characters, but Gilly’s character works for me, if only to demonstrate her existence. That said, I found it amusing that Samwell believes Moletown , a place where men go to have sex inside a brothel, is safer than Castle Black where men are sex starved. Really, Castle Black is unsafe because of an impending Wildling attack ! LOL !

  496. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    That was a superb explanation of the scene and the characters’ dysfunctional relationship. GRRM’s characters are gray and D&D’s characters are gray, like real people. That’s why many of us love the books. You get that and express it so well.

  497. OurKnivesAreSharp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    I’m surprised how many people had a problem with that scene. I really don’t know what idea of Jaime you guys have in your heads book or show, but in my opinion this is totally in line with his character, the scene is not that much different from what happens in the book, it definitely has a “rapey” feel to it or lack of a better term. And if people will remember, many of their sexual encounters start of that way, with Jaime practically forcing himself on her many times until she relents, its just their twisted sexual relationship. Granted he goes farther in the show, but as someone pointed out earlier, It baffles me people can accept all the horrible things Jaime has done like murder, attempted murder on a young child, yet sit there and actually say forcing himself on cersei was a step too far for his character? gimme a break! I mean seriously in the book they do the deed right on top of Joffry’s body if I’m not mistaken, lol but THATS ok. Also remember what a horrible person Cersei has been, and more importantly how badly she screws over Jaime and how she treats him when he returns home, after he went to hell and back to get to her, partly simply because he lost his hand. So is it really hard to see Jaime’s frustration? in the context of their physical and dysfunctional sexual relationship in the pass, I find it completely within the bounds of his character that he would just snap from being away from her for so long, the person he gave up everything for, and to finally return and be treated the way he was simply because he lost his hand.

    That is basically where there relationship ends, Jaime is finally realizing who Cersei really is after all this time. And Cersei in many ways soiled Jaimes honor, every horrible thing or bad decision he made was for Cersei, pushing Bran out the window, even joining the Kingsguard was for her, and this is how she treats him in the end, in no way shape or form was that scene out of character or did it go too far. I had a MUCH bigger problem with Jaime killing Alton Lannister in season 2, which I do consider very much out of character.

    Btw, can anyone tell me if that was Bowen Marsh or Othell Yarwick in the nights watch scene, shouting to go out and defend one of the villages in the Gift, I have a hard time believing thats Yarwick, def sounded like Marsh, but I thought I read a cast list somewhere saying he was playing Yarwick so idk

  498. Azzy Mahmood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    I hate New Daario even more than I do Dany. And that is saying something. He has the intensity, brevity and self-importance of a stick of celery. Book Daario and Old Daario are so incredibly superior, I can barely bring myself to think of him as Daario. His appearance and performance to date make a mockery of the character.

    Oh, and I love Sansa.

  499. KingJon
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Azzy Mahmood,

    I too do not like new Daario. Liked the other guy better.

  500. Daniellica
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Apologies if I am repeating any of the above–got halfway through 430 comments and can go no further.

    I am honestly surprised at the extreme reaction of the sept scene. It is definitely ambivalent, definitely more on the side of sexual violence, but I saw Cercei begin with her kiss and then eventually grab at/cling to him and help guide the final port of entry. That doesn’t excuse rape in our world or their world, but it seemed more akin to the book’s moral ambiguity than outright rape to me, just from watching her physical reaction to him.

    I also don’t think Jamie found it gratifying whatsoever. He’s been trying to get home for so long, and had so many expectations of returning to Cercei, expectations that have been crushed by her rejection of him, her disgust by his disfigurement. NCW’s acting here is superb–the pain on his face, the hollowing out of everything he thought he cared for as she asks him to murder Tyrion, begs him, demands it of him. She has used sex to manipulate and control him for so long, I saw it as him turning her own weapon against her.

    I am in no way saying this justifies rape, but this is Jamie at rock bottom. She alternates between pushing him away and clawing him closer throughout the entire scene. This is his point of no return, and the schism between them helps sets up so much conflict for the future.

    Destroying his character? Perhaps. His character NEEDS to be destroyed. He can’t keep playing the man he once was. That man is dead, and his final act in defiance of that is so psychologically congruent with everything we know of him that I do not understand how people can let the ambivalence of one scene destroy years of context, as if it existed on its own.

    In other news, the birds-n-bees from Tywin was hilarious, and loved the contrast of Tywin vs. Cercei’s versions of control. Very refreshing to see Davos at his witty best instead of that near-permanent glower he’s had the past…most of his episodes. I also thought at first it might have been Coldhands in the preview, but then figured it is most likely a WW from the NW going to Craster’s. Still, a girl can dream…

    And the music in this episode kicked more ass than the Thenns. Jus’ sayin. :)

  501. KingJon
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    I’m starting to believe that they are going to merge the Gilly and Val characters somehow. Hannah Murray is actually quite beautiful. Unless they introduce Val before seasons end, but I haven’t heard anything.

  502. Hodoreo
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Good episode overall. But seriously D & D, I’m starting to think they are just changing shit for the heck of doing so.
    Sansa/LF scene was eerie as fuck and amazing. Good adaptation from ASOS.
    The orgy scene was a bit unneccessary, but the clashes between Tywin and Oberyn were interesting.
    They should have at least given Cersei some of her consentual lines from the book. You’re home etc.. Now there’s going to be tumblr feminists crying for centuries on end,god help us all. I don’t think it will destroy Jaime’s redemption giving his Brienne scenes next week and his revelation to Tyrion.
    Didn’t see the point of the Hound robbing the man. Considering he said he had a code in episode. Wtf was that about?
    Daario vs Oznak was a bit anti climax considering the screentime it was getting in the trailers. Also they might even be portraying Daenerys as even more cocky than she is in the books.
    The show needs to give Bran, Jon, Ramsay, Roose, Theon and Stannis more screentime, I find they are just being shown in the shadows of the Lannisters right now.

  503. OurKnivesAreSharp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Azzy Mahmood:
    I hate New Daario even more than I do Dany. And that is saying something. He has the intensity, brevity and self-importance of a stick of celery. Book Daario and Old Daario are so incredibly superior, I can barely bring myself to think of him as Daario. His appearance and performance to date make a mockery of the character.

    Oh, and I love Sansa.

    Yeah undecided on him, leaning towards dislike. Definitely hate Dany with a burning passion I agree on that much.

  504. OurKnivesAreSharp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    KingJon,

    Don’t really see that being feasible for a number of reasons. One I see as being much more likely is the merging of Fake Arya Stark/Jeyne Poole and Miranda, Ramsay Snows sadistic bed warmer,thats the only reason I can see them introducing her character in the Bolton storyline Not really sure if I would like that, considering it would take away from Theon/Reek finding his heroic side and ‘rescuing’ her at Winterfell

  505. KingJon
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    OurKnivesAreSharp,

    Yeah, I definitelyagree about Miranda becoming Fake Arya. It would alter Theon’s arc. It’s like Martin says, the shows changes will have a ‘butterfly effect’ on the story arcs while ultimately trying to end in the same place as Martin.

  506. KingJon
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Hodoreo,

    Agree with the Hound scene. A bit out of place. And the Daario duel was anti-climatic. They could have had the horse rider make a few passes at Daario or even wound him. Build the tension a little. Instead they went with the Indiana Jones pulls gun on swordsman bit.

  507. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Bard: I always thought that it’s both unrealistic as well as awkward and a bit distasteful that Cersei consents to have sex with Jaime in front of her dead son

    Of course, Cersei, by her very nature, is both unrealistic (thank gods) and awkward.

  508. JamesL
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    NomadicDirewolf,

    They never show the Dorthraki raping the Lhazarene woman while in the books it is described in fairly graphic detail. In the books Theon rapes Kyra when he takes Winterfell repeatedly, the Night’s Watch mutineers rape Craster’s daughters, Lolly’s gets gang raped during the King Landing riots, I’m sure there have been more but these are just a few moments off the top of my head that have been edited out. Ramsay also strips woman naked in the books before he hunts them which they did not do in the show, at least not yet.

  509. Amy A.
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    I loved the Sansa/Dantos/Little Finger scene. It was beautiful and watching it with my Unsullied Fiance was great because he didn’t see this coming at all… Honestly, I may be one of the few that didn’t really miss Dontos last season. I think they portrayed the feeling I got from the book without tons of screen time. My only small gripe is that Unsullied didn’t really seem to remember him from season 2.

    Charles Dance as Tywin is always amazing! One of my favorite charactors on the show. Loved him schooling Tomen to be better than his dead brother right in front of the body.

    As for the Cercei/Jamie scene, I must be the only person who didn’t hate this. Yes, he does kind of force himself on her at first, but it seemed to portray a breaking point for their relationship to me. Jamie’s desperate and Cercei continues to push him away. I think that Cercei was just trying to say “not here” and “it isn’t right” because their dead son is lying right next to them. And I thought I saw her grab his butt towards the end and it made me feel like she was concenting. By far, this was no where near the most disturbing thing I’ve seen on the show. People need to get over this.

    The new Dario.. This guy is prooving to be pretty bad ass. I loved the little wink to Dany durring the duel. I was trying to picture old Dario in this scene and I just don’t think it would have been as cool. Love new Dario.

    Shireen in Dragonstone + Davos is continually great.

    Loved the tension growing at the wall.

    The only thing I disliked about this episode was Sam dropping Gilly & Baby Sam off at the whore house. But we’ll see what happens there.

    Overall a great episode!

  510. Joh
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    OurKnivesAreSharp,

    Wasn’t Jeyne supposed to be a sympathetic character?

    “Jeyne, Jeyne, it rhymes with pain” ;_;

    Seeing as she is just as vicious as Ramsay, I don’t see Myranda becoming the woobie anytime soon.

  511. Cielo Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Great episode and great season, but I am questioning why is Jon going back to Crasters? To kill his brothers? Unfortunalety the show is ignoring that Mance has his wargs (the eagle warged by Varimyr Sixkins) who keep spying on the wall from above and know there are not a thousand men to defend it. Where is the show going with Jon?

  512. Stella
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Brilliant and very thoroughly thought-out analysis. Thanks for sharing your ideas about the Jaime/Cersei scene and for providing such intelligent observations about these two very twisted but very human characters.

    Valar Dohaeris and you have served us all very well. Thank you.

  513. Ismael Comics
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Thoros: Ismael Comics: Well said.

    Please remember that this topic is very controversial and that people have different opinions than you. Real life or not, Rape is a serious topic to be discussing. Saying that it was well deserved or she had it coming is utterly sick. You wouldn’t wish it on anyone in real life, why does it make it ok to do in the fictional sense?

    Hello Thoros, I am touched by your polite way of answering to these comments, so I feel obligated to answer (very, very late, sadly) to you. Of course we know raping is bad, there is no point at all in discussing that kind of things!!… what made me very angry about this topic was that, by equaling (or comparing, or not being able to clearly differentiate, or etc…) rape in real life with fictional rape the result is… censorship… and that result is for me intolerable and really utterly sick.

    “You wouldn’t wish it on anyone in real life, why does it make it ok to do in the fictional sense?”

    If I knew of rape in real life, it’s sad because there is a real person involved. In fiction, it is about the way of portraying the rape: did you feel the violence, the intimacy, the anger, the sickness, the after-effects?… well, that means the scene was “well made”, and that is “good”, in an artistic way of seeing it. Any other moral, legal, social way of seeing fiction results in some sort of censorship, which is almost stupid and “bad”.

    “There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.”

    Oscar Wilde. Preface, Picture of Dorian Gray.

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  1. […] note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled […]


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