Inside the Episode: Breaker of Chains
By Lightbringer on in Media.

In this week’s Inside the Episode, David and Dan take us behind the scenes of “Breaker of Chains” for a closer look at Tywin’s reaction to Joffrey’s death, and the lesson he gives Tommen in front of his grieving mother. They touch on the difficulties of filming the uncomfortable scene between Jaime and Cersei, and discuss the brutality of the Wildlings and the Thenn. Arya and The Hound have rubbed off on each other but this week we witnessed the gap that remains between them.

In this week’s bonus clips George R.R. Martin details the history of the great slaver city of Meereen, and how it protects itself:

And our new Daario Naharis, Michiel Huisman, and Emilia Clarke discuss Dany’s gamble of choosing Daario as her Champion, and his victory:


197 Comments

  1. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    How about that Michiel Huisman, ladies?

  2. Jac Bergenson
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Hodor

  3. jentario
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    I actually think Cersei wanted to get raped. I mean, put yourself inside her head. Cersei, rape… Makes sense

  4. Renly's Peach
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Here comes the rape talk. Forget about a civil conversation on any other topic, folks. It’s rape controversy for two weeks.

  5. jentario
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Rape! I can’t wait for next week’s episode when everyone will move on. Rape!

  6. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    What I want to know is this: Who in the hell is TOE-MEN?

    Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei have all pronounced “Tah-men.” The producers are calling him Toe-men. Hello?>

    And curtain call for Tony Way! Is this on?? Hello? (taps the mic)

  7. ace
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    about the Hound and Arya scene and the Hound “code”. They stole the cart from the pig farmer during the Red Wedding episode, so I was not surprised it was just BS talk

  8. Sam
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, jeez, why does everyone have to talk about rape all the time, it harshes our mellow from this show about brutal realism.

    (Sure, you could try to claim that this is an escapist fantasy. Go ahead. Try to claim it.)

  9. HellFell
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Jaime’s rough physical behavior towards Cersei is rather consistent throughout the whole series if you think about it.

    We had 3 scenes that showed us physical interactions between them. First one is in the Pilot where he takes her from behind. This position is usually perceived as animalistic so there’s that. Then he pushes Bran out of the window (which also could mean that having sexual relations with Sercei results in Jaime’s aggression to others and bad desicions)

    Then we have “war for Cersei’s cunt” scene when she hits him; he grabs her and pulls towards him despite her resistance. She says “Let me go”, he answers “Never.” and we see that his grip is firm

    Finally we have this rape scene where Jaime clearly rapes her but strangly enough Cersei enjoys it (judging by her back-an-forth actions) which further proves that their whole sexual life is like a constant physical struggle.

    All in all, their insectious relationship is twisted and beyond rational and the show very consistently depicts it that way. I have no problem with the Sept scene whatsoever.

  10. Moët
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    An amazing interview with Alex Graves about THAT scene:

    http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

  11. House Mormont
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    You know this episode was ridiculously overpacked with storylines, I think we’ve talked over one in extraneous detail so here’s a selection of others to talk about:

    King’s landing 1: Sansa, Dontos, Littlefinger
    King’s landing 2: Olenna, Margaery
    King’s landing 4: Oberyn, Tywin, Ellaria, 3 whores (hey the catapults from acok finally made an entrance)
    King’s landing 5: Tyrion, Pod
    The Wall 1: Sam, Gilly
    The Wall 2: Jon, Ser Alliser, et al
    The Riverlands: Arya, The Hound
    Team Dragonstone: Davos, Stannis, Shireen
    Meereen: Dany, Daario, HIZDAHR ZO LORAQ, et al

  12. House Mormont
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    also, IT’S BEEN THREE EPISODES WHERE IS YARA

  13. Veltigar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    What I wanted to know was who the fuck that King was that got murdered by his brother… I mean didn’t Tywin call him “Orys”? I mean I guess he’s a stand in for King Aenys but was it actually confirmed that Maegor killed him

    Private Reiben: I got a bad feeling about this one.
    Captain Miller: When was the last time you felt good about anything? Private Reiben: The day they announced Mads Mikkelsen was cast as Euron

  14. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    A re-enactment of the Sept scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg-J63uKR2o

    Jaime’s opinion on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV4rqXHIB00&t=0m14s

  15. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Tony Day. Dammit. Who will ever forget him. I mean Tony Way. Crap.

  16. Swordpen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Glad to see that Daario shows a little more flair/swagger in this episode. I like the recast a lot, but I wish he were slightly more visually striking.

    Plus, it’s hard to top Khal Drogo. Jason Momoa was awesome.

    http://tiny-tran.blogspot.ca/2014/04/crystal-clay-game-of-thrones-part-8.html

  17. cosca
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Moët,

    Jesus. It’s like watching a man dig his own grave. The more he says about it, the worse the controversy gets, and the more he gets torn apart by the media. They should seriously just stop him from giving any more interviews on the scene.

  18. Zeus
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    I agree with most of what you said but how is doggy style animalistic? Have you ever had sex? It is one of many great positions but is no more animalistic than any other? That’s some screwed up puritanical thinking right there.

    HellFell:
    Jaime’s rough physical behavior towards Cersei is rather consistent throughout the whole series if you think about it.

    We had 3 scenes that showed us physical interactions between them. First one is in the Pilot where he takes her from behind. This position is usually perceived as animalistic so there’s that. Then he pushes Bran out of the window (which also could mean that having sexual relations with Sercei results in Jaime’s aggression to others and bad desicions)

    Then we have “war for Cersei’s cunt” scene when she hits him; he grabs her and pulls towards him despite her resistance. She says “Let me go”, he answers “Never.” and we see that his grip is firm

    Finally we have this rape scene where Jaime clearly rapes her but strangly enough Cersei enjoys it (judging by her back-an-forth actions) which further proves that their whole sexual life is like a constant physical struggle.

    All in all, their insectious relationship is twisted and beyond rational and the show very consistently depicts it that way. I have no problem withthe Sept scene whatsoever.

  19. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Veltigar:
    What I wanted to know was who the fuck that King was that got murdered by his brother… I mean didn’t Tywin call him “Orys”? I mean I guess he’s a stand in for King Aenys but was it actually confirmed that Maegor killed him

    I think that the showrunners have inserted another inside joke there (like they did with the “Elyo” Sword of Braavos reference/olive branch)…it’s just that very few know the reference. Or maybe they’re just fucking with the Sullied. I wish it made more direct relevant sense but oh well.

  20. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Zeus:
    I agree with most of what you said but how is doggy style animalistic? Have you ever had sex?It is one of many great positions but is no more animalistic than any other?That’s some screwed up puritanical thinking right there.

    Indeed. I’ve read all sorts of bizarre opinions in this fandom, but likening doggy style sex with rape and attempted murder of a child takes the cake.

    What’s next? If you’re into oral sex, you probably also like torture? If you’re into anal, you’re a child abuser?

    Public announcement: “Children, when you grow up, if you must have sex (a necessary evil, after all, in order to reproduce), do it missionary style, as God intended!”

  21. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    I read that interview and I don’t think he’s digging a grave, the visual cues that indicate it is consensual and that he mentions are certainly there. It helps me see the scene from a more neutral standpoint. I think a lot of people are so focused on what she said and are not focusing on what she is actually doing. And the context of the entire things matters.

    Now can we please talk about other aspects of the show? Please?

  22. Arthur
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Wow the site has really improved! I can view everything much easier now on my old iphone =]

  23. House Mormont
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    I think we can add Nomevedas (fire) to the list of bad ass valyrian words, along with Dovagaries (Unsullied!), Sovetis (fly) and Dracarys (dragonfire)

  24. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    ace:
    about the Hound and Arya scene and the Hound “code”.They stole the cart from the pig farmer during the Red Wedding episode, so I was not surprised it was just BS talk

    The “code” line coupled with this kind of a storyline was such a great idea: “Hey, let’s take the character whose defining trait and main redeeming quality is his honesty and contempt for hypocrisy, and turn him into a hypocrite! Why not? We’re also taking a character who, for all his moral greyness and bad deeds, abhors rape and is ridiculously devoted to those he loves, and making him rape the person he loves most!”

  25. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Her boat trip is a long one. It makes sense to delay her arrival until the mid-season.

  26. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    They fucked up. End of story. I saw a rape last night. But I am going to pretend I didn’t, that I saw what Graves meant to film by latching on one or two ambiguous nanoseconds. This is the Greatjon and the Northern Lords disappearing without explanation in the story world, this is having a crowd of ethnic Moroccans embrace Dany. This is something in the real world that took us out of the story world. So in my mind, it want as Graves intended. Alex Graves has delivered two great episodes of the series so far. They fucked up. End of story. I saw a rape last night. But I am going to pretend I didn’t, that I saw what Graves meant to film by latching on one or two ambiguous nanoseconds. This is the Greatjon and the Northern Lords disappearing without explanation in the story world, this is having a crowd of ethnic Moroccans to cheer Dany as their white liberator. The realities of production and the errors of filmmaking has created this mess and so pulled is out of the diegesis.
    So I will imagine the scene as Graves intended. And move on.
    What more can we do? Fire Graves who has delivered two fabulous episodes thus far (including every other scene in this episode except the one in question)?
    I think we have proved that we do not tolerate rape and sexual violence in civil society. The outpouring of emotion in regard to this has given me good feels about humanity, that even the portrayal of rape in a fictional narrative has created such a response.
    People we’re offended. And they have every right to be. The majority who defend the scene are probably scared for the future of the series and are view any other opinion to the contrary as the work of social justice warriors or feminists or whatever labels they dole out.
    So let’s end the name-calling and move on.

  27. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    Tony Day. Dammit. Who will ever forget him. I mean Tony Way. Crap.

    I heard you. Long live House Hollard. Does anyone know his favorite libation? I shall raise a toast to his inebriated honor. Sansa and the North will remember!

  28. House Mormont
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I suppose if Tyrion’s trial is going to become the new Joffrey and Margaery are going to get married soon and the new new Stannis could arrive at King’s Landing at any moment, it’s good to condense her action into the midseason, it’ll need it

  29. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Zeus:

    Really? “How is doggy style ‘animalistic’?”

    I guess it’s called doggy style because you’re supposed to bark to each other while doing it?

  30. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Off topic: mods give us an edit button!

  31. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    Here comes the rape talk. Forget about a civil conversation on any other topic, folks. It’s rape controversy for two weeks.

    if you think the rape controversy is going to last just two weeks, all I have to say is: Oh, you sweet summer child.

    (Buffy spoilers)

    A big part of the Buffy fandom is still going on about Spike’s on-screen attempted rape of Buffy, even though he didn’t have a soul at the time, which in that universe means lack of conscience and typically results in a lot of mass murder, rape and torture, even though the guilt over it prompted him to get a soul, and even though other characters – and this same character, while he was still a villain – did worse things with no remorse (including presumably lots of off-screen rape of anonymous characters, as well as on-screen murder and mental and physical torture, plus an attempt to bring hell on Earth, literally).

  32. ace
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I heard you. Long live House Hollard. Does anyone know his favorite libation? I shall raise a toast to his inebriated honor. Sansa and the North will remember!

    a whole barrel of wine, preferably in one shot? :D

  33. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Really? “How is doggy style ‘animalistic’?”

    I guess it’s called doggy style because you’re supposed to bark to each other while doing it?

    I hope you don’t use tongue in intimate situations, ever. That also makes you like a dog. You know how they like to lick.

  34. ace
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Really? “How is doggy style ‘animalistic’?”

    I guess it’s called doggy style because you’re supposed to bark to each other while doing it?

    maybe because in most mammalian species in the animal kingdom, that is how they copulate?

  35. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    ace: a whole barrel of wine, preferably in one shot?:D

    Hah! Probably not Dornish Red. Maybe something from the Reach? Most likely some bitter, back-alley moonshine from Flea Bottom. At dusk, we toast together!

  36. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Oh I recall THAT SCENE on Buffy. I personally had no issues with that scene as this was the key moment for his redemption. But I am a man so maybe i was just ignorant of that sensitivity at the time. I appreciate that others were made upset by it.
    Lesson to showrunners-and I say this with zero sarcasm and without an iota of facetiousness: Be careful when you use rape in a television series.

  37. Mr Fixit
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: if you think the rape controversy is going to last just two weeks, all I have to say is: Oh, you sweet summer child.

    (Buffy spoilers)

    A big part of the Buffy fandom is still going on about Spike’s on-screen attempted rape of Buffy, even though he didn’t have a soul at the time, which in that universe means lack of conscience and typically results in a lot of mass murder, rape and torture, even though the guilt over it prompted him to get a soul, and even though other characters – and this same character, while he was still a villain – did worse things with no remorse (including presumably lots of off-screen rape of anonymous characters, as well as on-screen murder and mental and physical torture, plus an attempt to bring hell on Earth, literally).

    Well, there you have it. If Spike can be forgiven for Hell on Earth, I’m sure people will find it in their blessed little hearts to forgive Jaime for his lapse in judgement.

  38. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Before I got too judgmental, I reminded myself that I read “Clegane” as “KLEE-genn” in my head before the show came out.

  39. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    You know what, for a fandom that is sooo good at “reading between the lines”, showing a clear understanding of the use of POV, and with creating theories based off of GRRMs ambiguity, y’all go apeshit when a scene that you thought wasn’t forced sex turns out it actually could be.

  40. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    We’re forgetting TOmmen! Also, new Daario sucks. Let’s talk about how new Daarior sucks :)

  41. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    Watch it again and focus on what she’s saying and doing while they hit the floor. The rape plays out exactly like in the books.

  42. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    ace: a whole barrel of wine, preferably in one shot?:D

    All hail Tony Way! May we drink (gulp gulp gulp gasp sputter retch)

  43. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Except her verbal consent. Which would have altered the scene dramatically and we wouldn’t be here today in this flame war.

  44. House Mormont
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    jwal,

    The bad thing about Daario: wow another white guy with the same hair as Bronn and the Blackfish, and he even sounds like the Blackfish. Do casuals even remember the Blackfish?

    Good things: he hot, no creepy snaggletooth, and he owned that ‘wink, kiss boob dagger, throw boob dagger’ move

  45. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Off topic: mods give us an edit button!

    Here here!!! Return us the edit button!

  46. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Joshua Atreides,

    Watch it again and focus on what she’s saying and doing while they hit the floor. The rape plays out exactly like in the books.

    You should not have to watch closely, that is the point. Most unsullied saw that scene as a rape, there’s no going back

  47. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Then they should rewatch. Why would Cersei say” this isn’t right” while about her own rape in between kissing Jaime back?

  48. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit: Well, there you have it. If Spike can be forgiven for Hell on Earth, I’m sure people will find it in their blessed little hearts to forgive Jaime for his lapse in judgement.

    I think you’re missing the point. Fans have been far more forgiving of trying to bring Hell on Earth than of trying to rape a main character on-screen. The latter is still treated as unforgivable by many.

  49. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    *While*should be edited out

  50. Easteros bunny
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    They still haven’t explain why they did rape!

    They screwed up and they should be called out on it!

    It’s like getting a stale sandwich from a shop, do you expect it and eat it anyway or do you take it back?

    Duh, you take it back!

  51. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: You should not have to watch closely, that is the point. Most unsullied saw that scene as a rape, there’s no going back

    Um OK. And we shouldn’t have to guess who Jon Snows mom is. What happened to being able to analyze and come up with alternate ideas? The scene is ambiguous, just as it is in the book. Cersei doesn’t consent in the book. She feels James cock and in the heat of the moment cries out. That happens. And it shows that Cersei and Jaime have a pretty fucked up relationship where he can force himself on her and she still feels pleasure from it.

  52. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I told my Unsullied friends that it wasn’t barring any acknowledgment of it being so in the next episode. Their willing to accept it. After all the Unsullied are still waiting for the wight hand to be delivered to Kings Landing, for info on Benjen and who the hell ordered the attack on Bran.

  53. Arthur
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Besides the rape stuff, is anyone else sick of seeing shit take place in a brothel?

    I think D&D use that place way to much.

    I really want D&D to build up Oberyn as more then just a sex hungry bisexual. Lets see him sparring or something other than grabbing ass.

    I know it’s only been 3 episodes and we get much more time but I’m really looking forward to learning more about TV Oberyn other than he is a nympho.

  54. Carne
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Are these episode descriptions new? I seem to remember reading them a while back, but I can’t quite remember.

  55. Deathdreams
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    It just doesn’t feal like a real rape without Singing in the rain.

  56. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Deathdreams,

    And a bit of the old ultra-violence til you see the red red groovy… Real horror show!

  57. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Deathdreams:
    Rygar,

    It just doesn’t feal like a real rape without Singing in the rain.

    Well well well well. Oh my brother
    A bit of the ol ultra violent in this one.

  58. Mr Fixit
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: I think you’re missing the point. Fans have been far more forgiving of trying to bring Hell on Earth than of trying to rape a main character on-screen. The latter is still treated as unforgivable by many.

    I was looking to bring some levity to a very dour thread. Speaking of dourness, here’s a take I’m very much in agreement with.http://www.awardsdaily.com/tv/the-pointless-outrage-at-game-of-thrones-rape-scene/

  59. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Deathdreams,

    Rygar,

    Now there’s a character arc… Alex De Large!

  60. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    I’m beyond the point of crying over spilled milk. What’s done is done. But as I analyze the scene and what Graves and D&D were going for, it was a failure. All they had to do was cut Jaime’s “I don’t care” line and add Cersei moaning in pleasure and clearly kissing him back and it would have been better executed. Instead of having her repeat “It’s not right”, maybe they could have had her say “Not here, the Septas…” and Jaime could have replied “To Hell with the Septas”. There were better ways to make it more ambiguous.

  61. Deathdreams
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Well well well well.Oh my brotherA bit of the ol ultra violent in this one.

    Hey dad. There’s a strange fella sitting on the sofa munchy wunching limeticks of toast.

  62. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Where D&D failed was to not have that guy wearing the fedora in the promo pics pop up during the sept scene with the Staff of Ra and use the light coming in to show the last resting place of the Ark on Joffs penis.

  63. duncanny
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    What I want to know is this: Who in the hell is TOE-MEN?

    Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei have all pronounced “Tah-men..” The producers are calling him Toe-men. Hello?>

    And curtain call for Tony Way! Is this on?? Hello? (taps the mic)

    I’ve always thought of it as Tah-men as well.

    And yes, please, a curtain call for Tony Way. Dontos deserves some respect.

    Swordpen:
    Glad to see that Daario shows a little more flair/swagger in this episode. I like the recast a lot, but I wish he were slightly more visually striking.

    Oh no no no. New Daario is very striking. He can be my champion any time.

  64. Cumsprite
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: e

    *Welly welly welly welly welly welly well

    Sapito redux!

  65. Deathdreams
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    What is a limetick? Why can’t I edit?

  66. Cumsprite
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    I also vote for an edit option. As well as “like” and “dislike” buttons. Mostly the “dislike” because that would be fun! Would probably require a regular forum set-up, and R’hllor knows no one wants that.

  67. A Man Grown
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Amazing movie. I saw it for the first time pretty recently, which made me wonder if it could have influenced GRRM when he was developing Theon’s character arc.

  68. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit: I was looking to bring some levity to a very dour thread. Speaking of dourness, here’s a take I’m very much in agreement with.http://www.awardsdaily.com/tv/the-pointless-outrage-at-game-of-thrones-rape-scene/

    This article is so right, we should really focus on important real life issues such as the state of human rights, environmental disasters, chemical attacks, wars, accidents, crimes, instead of such trivial issues as fiction and entertainment. We should follow the example of the website this article was posted on, which is called…. AwardsDailyTV?

    Oh, wait…

  69. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Old Daario was ok, I didn’t dislike him. At least he was different physically and had a sort of bravado to him. His mannerisms, was better suited in my opinion. We’re not supposed to necessarily like Daario in the books so I didn’t mind kinda not liking him in Season 3.

    New Daario is just a different performance, is my issue. Too generic, different portrayal (which comes with casting a different, experienced actor. They’ll want to make the character their own). An actor making it their own, for presumable they rest of the series, I get it. I just don’t have to like it! :)

  70. Daniellica
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    I posted something similar at the dead-end of near 500 posts on the recap, but tough titty, here I go again.

    That moment is Jamie hitting rock-bottom, when he realizes everything he’s fought to return to is gone. I see zero gratification on his part for this act, but the final assault on a relationship that is destroyed and on the man he used to be. She demands he murder their brother, and he turns the weapon she’s long used to manipulate him against her. That doesn’t make rape “okay,” and the ambivalence displayed by Cercei between her words and her actions in this scene (“It’s not right” & pushing him away/clawing him closer) muddy already-muddied waters.

    But this is the final schism in their relationship, the point of no return. That Jamie might see himself in the acts of others in what’s to come only makes things that much more interesting. That he brutalized Cercei in this manner might just give him the final push he needs to make things right. We saw his reluctance to do anything for Sansa at Brienne’s insistence. We saw his actions back in KL as an attempt to make things what they were, but everything has changed, especially Jamie himself. Now he has no way back, not even in his own mind. Breaker of chains, indeed.

    How so many can view this scene as though it were some stand-alone and isolated event without all the context building toward it I do not understand. It is so psychologically congruent with everything we know about both Jamie and Cercei, and I personally think they did an amazing job. Yes, it is uncomfortable to watch–shouldn’t it be? I also very much relate to this scene as a surviver of domestic rape.

    I sincerely doubt D&D expected millions of people to explode in paroxysms of hysteria, as they have shown rape in the show before (not to mention a dozen other things much more graphic and heartless), but even the fact that it has spawned a discussion about rape on so many forums across so many spectrums is quite amazing. A more interesting discussion about this scene might be why this in particular was so shocking/infuriating compared to so many other incredibly graphic and brutal scenes we’ve been shown in the past.

    ABOUT THE EVERYTHING ELSE–I am really puzzled when people point to scenes that don’t move the plot forward per se as unnecessary and pointless, re: Arya/Hound. This is a character-driven story, and in such stories it is the combustion of characters come together that drives everything. The Arya/Hound scene was both greatly entertaining and revealing, telling of them and their world. I especially liked D’s description of the theft by the Hound as a “moral imperative”; it would have been immoral of him not to steal the silver because someone worse would’ve gotten their hands on it. Brilliant.

    Also, when you make an adaptation, you make the necessary cuts of people/places/things, and you enrich what you’re left with as much as possible. This is some of the best chemistry between two actors I’ve ever seen, and the writers would be fools not to milk it for everything it’s worth.

    So glad Davos got to have more than one expression on his face! He was starting to look like a St. Bernard! Shireen’s Stannis-ness was also hilarious, as were “the finer points of bad behavior.”

    As a total language nerd, I absolutely adore hearing Dany speak her High Valyrian. Damn, she sells that shit well! And the music! The music this entire episode was complete badassery.

    The pacing this season has been stellar so far. For the most part they’ve kept with the storyline until it’s done, then moved on (unless time needs pass by, or there’s a shift of situation). I love this. It really lets us sit with the characters, connect their actions to reactions, fulfill their end of things.

    One of the recaps I read (cannot remember which) described Sansa’s storyline as a reverse fairytale, her rescue instead leading deeper into the woods. I’m just so happy she’s out of KL so she can stop acting like an automaton. I hope.

    I’m also really digging Alliser Thorne in his new role, and he and Jon agreeing on something was more uncomfortable than all their many conflicts. But I mean…Sam doesn’t want Gilly to be raped so he takes her to a BROTHEL? *facedesk* Sounds like Tywin needs to give the birds-n-bees talk to more than Tommen. TOE-men?

    My friend keeps referring to the Queen of Thorns as either “ewok lady” or “stone-faced cooter badger.” I might have to assert my female dominance and punch him on the nose.

  71. 3eyes
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Unsullied opinion: I believe there is a reason Oberyn is mostly seen in LF’s brothel, especially when we learn of his expertise as a poisoner.

  72. axia777
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Moët:
    An amazing interview with Alex Graves about THAT scene:

    http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

    What a pile of weak sauce bullshit.

  73. KingJon
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    It wasn’t RAPE, it was a highly inappropriate and slightly forceful vaginal penetration next to a corpse. People do that all the time. Get over it.

  74. KingJon
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Was anyone else disappointed by the anti-climatic Daario duel? It reminded me of when Indiana Jones pulled his gun to kill that flashy swordsman. Kind of funny, but a lil disappointing.

  75. Daniellica
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Mr Fixit: I was looking to bring some levity to a very dour thread. Speaking of dourness, here’s a take I’m very much in agreement with.http://www.awardsdaily.com/tv/the-pointless-outrage-at-game-of-thrones-rape-scene/

    Loved that article.

    But if you must pin me down to actually discussing something that really doesn’t matter in the least bit – I will tell you this about that scene. It could be rape and still be allowed on that show. It makes a comment ON RAPE without condoning it. I did not see it that way. I saw it as a struggle between two people who have a very wrong but very irresistible sexual connection. It was no worse than much of what is depicted on Game of Thrones. It is not meant to be politically correct or depict an ideal world. It is meant to depict a mostly lawless world where women only have power if they can take it for themselves and a few of them actually are. But don’t let me stop you from condemning the one show on TV that actually hands that power over to the females on the show because that would stop from you getting on your soapbox and making broad proclamations that ultimately do no more than make you feel as though you’ve done good work for the way by standing up for what’s right. Here’s a tip: you really didn’t. It is imaginary outrage aimed at an imaginary world. That’s all.

  76. Daniellica
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think the point is that discussing art and entertainment is pointless; I believe exactly the opposite.

    I think the point is the sense of MORAL OUTRAGE that explodes the internet over something like this on TV when actual moral outrage occurs right next door to us all the time, sometimes in spectacular fashion, and people are either too apathetic or exhausted to care as much for, say, the teenage girls being sexually trafficked downtown, but can whip into a frenzy over an ambiguous fictionalization of sexual violence on HBO. Is it because we feel helpless to actually *do* anything in our own world, but the fiction is a safe and controlled space to vent such anger?

    I’ve tried to explain the persistence of rape culture in our society to some of my male friends, and it’s always sigh/eyeroll/here-she-goes-again. I’ve tried engaging people in discussions about the erosion of human/civil rights in the USA and abroad to more of the same. I’ve tried explaining my work with a non-profit to aid farmers in Western Uganda (entire villages swindled of every single thing they own and left with useless crops to die in the sun) to “who gives a shit?”

    But THIS??? OMG HOW DARE THEY.

    I think that is more where that half of the discussion is coming from. :)

  77. Josla
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica: Loved that article.

    Fantastic!!! My thoughts exactly. So much buzz for an act of violence in a world so full of these. What about that girl Ramsay made his dogs tear to pieces. Isn’t that kind of cruelty enough to make people go crazy?

  78. wizardeyes
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    I’m so sick of this rape debate now. I wanna look forward to future episodes (even though this is a recap thread – sue me).

    So we’ve got Oathkeeper –

    “Dany balances justice and mercy. Jaime tasks Brienne with his honor. Jon secures volunteers while Bran, Jojen, Meera and Hodor stumble on shelter.”

    We know from the next time teaser that it will also feature

    Jaime/ Cersei
    Tyrion/ probably Jaime
    Sansa/ Littlefinger on ship
    Night’s Watch stuff
    Bran & Co

    And common sense tells us

    Jaime/ Brienne – gives her Oathkeeper and armour

    Brienne heads out with Pod

    Is there any other news? I want more Ramsay, Reek, Roose and Oberyn!

  79. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica,

    Holy fuck, that is brilliant to read. What am I doing, leveling what reason I have against an outrage that knows no end? The outcry didn’t even take true aim at the material. Screw this debate. I’ve said what I believe, and there’s little changing a set mind.

    jwal,

    I miss old Daario so much. I agree Huisman’s interpretation stikes me as more generic, even after the stylish slaying of Ser Pissing Contest. He strikes me as a poor man’s Oberyn.

    Full disclosure, I mancrushed a bit on Ed Skrein’s Daario. I felt he embodied his lines and couldn’t wait to see him live them out onscreen. At least he got to see Dany naked before he left the series. I’d be very disappointed to hear he was let go for artistic reasons. I hope he elected to pursue another opportunity. That would be less painful to know. Last I heard, he was the lead in a Transporter reboot.

  80. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    axia777,

    What more can he say really?

    Do you think he should be fired?

  81. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    I almost forgot about their shenanigans together. So many awesome odd couples. Arya and Sandor are a treasure as is.

  82. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    ace: maybe because in most mammalian species in the animal kingdom, that is how they copulate?

    No, couldn’t be that! ;)

    It was such an absurd thing to say, lol.

    Doggy style sex is the very definition of an animalistic approach to sex: dominant male takes the female from behind. He is in the position of power, she is submitting to him.

    It was even dealt with as such in the book A Game of Thrones, as well as season one of the show. Drogo and the other Dothraki fuck their women the way their horses have sex; Dany, the white civilized woman, introduces Drogo to sex positions favored by humans when they want to look at each other while doing the deed.

    So Jaime fucking Cersei like that in Winterfell could be a coincidence, but there is symbolism of the male being dominant with his mate in the choice of position.

  83. mariamb
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Josla: Fantastic!!! My thoughts exactly. So much buzz for an act of violence in a world so full of these. What about that girl Ramsay made his dogs tear to pieces. Isn’t that kind of cruelty enough to make people go crazy?

    Loved the article also. I’m also curious why poor Tansy’s horrible death doesn’t generate any discussion.

  84. wizardeyes
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Carne,

    I haven’t seen them before. Cool! I was worried that the mid-season might be a bit of a lull but they definitely don’t sound like it from these.

    Ep 5 – Jon’s expedition to Craster’s to kill the mutineers which looks action – packed

    Ep 6 – Tyrion’s trial. One of my most anticipated scenes. Can’t wait for that dialogue. “Why that’s where you’re wrong father. I’ve been on trial for being a dwarf my entire life.” “Would that I had enough poison for all of you.”

  85. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica:
    I don’t think the point is that discussing art and entertainment is pointless; I believe exactly the opposite.

    I think the point is the sense of MORAL OUTRAGE that explodes the internet over something like this on TV when actual moral outrage occurs right next door to us all the time, sometimes in spectacular fashion, and people are either too apathetic or exhausted to care as much for, say, the teenage girls being sexually trafficked downtown, but can whip into a frenzy over an ambiguous fictionalization of sexual violence on HBO. Is it because we feel helpless to actually *do* anything in our own world, but the fiction is a safe and controlled space to vent such anger?

    I’ve tried to explain the persistence of rape culture in our society to some of my male friends, and it’s always sigh/eyeroll/here-she-goes-again. I’ve tried engaging people in discussions about the erosion of human/civil rights in the USA and abroad to more of the same. I’ve tried explaining my work with a non-profit to aid farmers in Western Uganda (entire villages swindled of every single thing they own and left with useless crops to die in the sun) to “who gives a shit?”

    But THIS??? OMG HOW DARE THEY.

    I think that is more where that half of the discussion is coming from. :)

    So, it’s perfectly OK to spend a lot of time discussing TV shows and movies and entertainment in general as long as it’s about how much you like it or how awesome was this or that or Crackpot Theory number 576 or Your Fancast for the next season or who would win in a fight between character A and character B… as long as you don’t dare criticize and get angry about anything in a TV show or movie; then it’s immediately “OMG how dare you, go talk about the social issues and environmental disasters instead!”

  86. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Josla: Fantastic!!! My thoughts exactly. So much buzz for an act of violence in a world so full of these. What about that girl Ramsay made his dogs tear to pieces. Isn’t that kind of cruelty enough to make people go crazy?

    I think people are upset here because those more overt acts of cruelty are unanimously agreed to be things no person should ever do, and we don’t live in a world where it’s commonplace for commentators to say “That girl was just asking to be ripped apart by dogs, the way she wore her clothing. How was Ramsay supposed to resist?”

    Jaime has his defenders for this scene, though. People say ‘look at the context of this rape! Context, people!’

    I hope you see the point.

  87. The Shadow Lands
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    The Sansa Stark Escape scene was Book Worthy…

    Tywin & Tommen convo was dope! Twyin is a Beast…

    Jamie & Cersi? Just Fast Forward to…

    Tywin & The Red Viper scene crazy…

    Rest was pretty good…

  88. axia777
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Off topic: mods give us an edit button!

    There is one but it only lasts for a few minutes.

    EDIT: Make that 10 minutes.

    Joshua Atreides:
    axia777,

    What more can he say really?

    Do you think he should be fired?

    No, not fired. But I can regard him as a douche bag for screwing up so badly and then denying it out right. I am not the only one either.

    I think that they did it this way for shock value alone. It blew up in their faces and now they want to deny it. It is kind of pathetic actually.

  89. Mr Fixit
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Zack:

    Jaime has his defenders for this scene, though. People say ‘look at the context of this rape! Context, people!’

    I hope you see the point.

    We’re out of luck then. Murder, killing, manslaughter, homicide, first degree, second degree, self-defense.


    Rape.

  90. JamesL
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    I think we have proved that we do not tolerate rape and sexual violence in civil society. The outpouring of emotion in regard to this has given me good feels about humanity, that even the portrayal of rape in a fictional narrative has created such a response.

    Why does societies hypocrisy over violence in the media make you feel good about humanity? All forms of violence are okay even against children but sexual violence gets put on a pedestal. Murder, torture, abuse all happen in real life yet no one objects to these being displayed in film or TV. If the concept of rape in a story is so offensive to you then why do you read and support such a sexually violent book series. The issue isn’t that the show had a rape scene, it is the characters who were involved with this scene and the damage it does to their characters and relationship.

  91. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Zack: No, couldn’t be that! ;)

    It was such an absurd thing to say, lol.

    Doggy style sex is the very definition of an animalistic approach to sex: dominant male takes the female from behind. He is in the position of power, she is submitting to him.

    It was even dealt with as such in the book A Game of Thrones, as well as season one of the show. Drogo and the other Dothraki fuck their women the way their horses have sex; Dany, the white civilized woman, introduces Drogo to sex positions favored by humans when they want to look at each other while doing the deed.

    So Jaime fucking Cersei like that in Winterfell could be a coincidence, but there is symbolism of the male being dominant with his mate in the choice of position.

    Oh FFS. This is utter bullshit. The idea that the male is “dominant” because he’s on top or taking her from behind is hilarious. There were at least several sex polls that showed that doggy style is women’s favorite or one of favorite positions.

    Oh, and if you want a true story about sex between dogs, here’s one. My dog, who is a beautiful, super-cute little mongrel, of barely 10 kilos was neutered before I adopted him, and while he likes female dogs much better than male dogs and seems to have fallen in love a couple of times, has never tried to mount any other dogs. Except that one time, when we met a big German Shepard female while I was walking him in the park, who was in heat, according to her owners. She got very excited when she saw him from afar, and for a while, she was chasing him around. After running from her for a while, in the end he let her catch him and the two of them started playing and licking each other – and in the end, he mounted her. I was a bit surprised that he was able to do it, though neutered dogs still have erections, though rarely. She seemed content, in any case. It was a cute picture, with her twice his size.

    Who would’ve guessed that my doggy was so “dominant” there.

  92. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica,

    What a fantastic, articulate post. Thank you for the read :)

  93. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Oh, balls. The WiC.net civil war rages on. I’m outta here.

  94. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Oh FFS. This is utter bullshit. The idea that the male is “dominant” because he’s on top or taking her from behind is hilarious. There were at least several sex polls that showed that doggy style is women’s favorite or one of favorite positions.

    Oh, and if you want a true story about sex between dogs, here’s one. My dog, who is a beautiful, super-cute little mongrel, of barely 10 kilos was neutered before I adopted him, and while he likes female dogs much better than male dogs and seems to have fallen in love a couple of times, has never tried to mount any other dogs. Except that one time, when we met a big German Shepard female while I was walking him in the park, who was in heat, according to her owners. She got very excited when she saw him from afar, and for a while, she was chasing him around. After running from her for a while, in the end he let her catch him and the two of them started playing and licking each other – and in the end, he mounted her. I was a bit surprised that he was able to do it, though neutered dogs still have erections, though rarely. She seemed content, in any case. It was a cute picture, with her twice his size.

    Who would’ve guessed that my doggy was so “dominant” there.

    You sure used a lot of words to say that females can enjoy sex too. Good for you. If only I ever said otherwise, then you might have actually contradicted me.

    Hey, girls: Annara Snow has a lesson for you–do you identify as dominant or submissive in bed? Did you know that enjoyment of being submissive means you aren’t actually being submissive? Wow!

  95. Roger König
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Michiel Huisman is an awesome daario naharis.

  96. Crabber's Son
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Can anyone really blame jaime after what hes been through? the man lost a hand killed a cousin fought a bear and sat in a jail cell for ages the whole time thinking about getting back to his one true love. Then he finally gets back to her and she rejects him the entire time except for one moment in the sept until he refuses to kill his own brother it seemed like a pretty logical character progression since they decided to go with the whole cersei rejecting jaime story line.

  97. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Zack: You sure used a lot of words to say that females can enjoy sex too. Good for you. If only I ever said otherwise, then you might have actually contradicted me.

    Hey, girls: Annara Snow has a lesson for you–do you identify as dominant or submissive in bed? Did you know that enjoyment of being submissive means you aren’t actually being submissive? Wow!

    Oh really, and I was under the impression that you said things like:

    Doggy style sex is the very definition of an animalistic approach to sex: dominant male takes the female from behind. He is in the position of power, she is submitting to him.

    So Jaime fucking Cersei like that in Winterfell could be a coincidence, but there is symbolism of the male being dominant with his mate in the choice of position.

    So, I guess, folks, this was Zack giving us all a lesson on the “symbolism” of sex, and how being dominant doesn’t really mean being dominant if the other person wants just that but actually is dominant because it’s symbolically dominant, and the animals do it like that and… uh… something?

    And this, folks, wasn’t Zack’s ridiculous, half-arsed attempt at a theory that GoT was from the start trying secretly to show us that Jaime is a potential rapist, because he is symbolically dominant over Cersei since he did her doggy style when Bran caught them. So, if you see a doggy style sex scene? Expect the next sex scene between the two characters to be rape, because this is “symbolism of the male being dominant over his mate in the choice of position”.

    No, I’m sure it was actually Zack saying something else, something that made some sense, only the true meaning of his post was too deep and hidden for the ordinary mortals to discern.

  98. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Ah, pulling imaginary statements from the other person out of thin air. Also known as a straw man. The last resort of a person on the losing side of a debate.

    Let’s recap. What I was responding to: “How is doggy style sex animalistic?” My response: “Uh, maybe because that’s how most animals have sex, rather than it being a cute nickname given for no reason?”

    Then I further draw a connection from the very series this site is formed around, discussing the symbolism of the Dany/Drogo sex scenes and pondering if maybe we were meant to relate the two instances based on sex position and their both being relatively early in the same book.

    It takes a real special kind of person to make of that, “I get it! You’re saying anyone who prefers being the dominant position in doggy style sex is a rapist!”

  99. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Zack,

    Man, why can’t we all just talk about our dogs? Or anything else? [sighs and hums “Let It Go” to himself]

  100. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Zack:
    Annara Snow,

    Ah, pulling imaginary statements from the other person out of thin air. Also known as a straw man. The last resort of a person on the losing side of a debate.

    Let’s recap. What I was responding to: “How is doggy style sex animalistic?” My response: “Uh, maybe because that’s how most animals have sex, rather than it being a cute nickname given for no reason?”

    Then I further draw a connection from the very series this site is formed around, discussing the symbolism of the Dany/Drogo sex scenes and pondering if maybe we were meant to relate the two instances based on sex position and their both being relatively early in the same book.

    It takes a real special kind of person to make of that, “I get it! You’re saying anyone who prefers being the dominant position in doggy style sex is a rapist!”

    No, it makes the kind of person who is actually reading this thread and knows that the discussion is about the Jaime/Cersei scene in the last episode. So when you start going on about doggy style sex as a sign of Jaime’s dominance over Cersei, supporting a previous poster who, in this hilariously puritanical post, listed “animalistic” doggy style sex as evidence of how twisted that relationship is (?), this means one of the following:

    1) you’re implying that a doggy style sex scene somehow shows Jaime’s “dominance” over Cersei in their relationship because you’re trying to say that they were always portraying him as a rapist/abuser.

    2) you’re not trying to say anything at all, you just like to write pointless posts.

    3) ? (fill in the blanks)

  101. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Annara Snow,

    Zack,

    Man, why can’t we all just talk about our dogs?

    I did…

  102. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I mean JUST about our dogs. Forever.

    We got our rescue last year. She was likely abandoned in our neighborhood. She sat waiting outside our backdoor until we took her in. She’s a soft, sausage-ey Minpin, which was perfect because I’ve secretly wanted a dachschund since I read Halloweiner in grade school, and Minpins are a mix of dachschunds and Italian greyhounds. I’ve never had a dog before, and now I see my dog in the eyes of nearly every other dog I meet, no matter what size they are. Dogs are love made flesh. Man. I love my dog.

  103. The Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Killing is far worse then rape. People don’t complain about the killing on the show. They have a rape scene where the woman is still kissing the man during it and people go crazy.

    GRRM’s famous quote is true: “I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”

  104. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Look, I’m sorry you seem to continually misinterpret words I type. I don’t like arguing, so I’m going to try to be nice even though you started this with rudeness (to my shame, which I continued). I’m willing to start over if you are.

    The reason I replied in the first place was mostly because I laughed. Seriously, deconstruct this sentence: “How is doggy style sex animalistic?” How do you not at least chortle at that question?

    But…then I thought about Drogo and Dany and wondered if GRRM went with that particular position when introducing J-C incest as maybe a kind of window into their sex lives, so that we are supposed to think that maybe Jaime has long been the dominant sort in their relationship. Note: this isn’t saying anything about Cersei. Some people like it that way, which there is nothing wrong with. I’m not saying preferring being dominant is or is not a sign of a future rapist, and I wouldn’t have brought up that first sex scene if somebody else hadn’t gone there first.

    But…there is at least the possibility that Jaime, like an animal, takes what he wants when he wants it. Is that first scene relevant to this one? I doubt it. But maybe GRRM was planting seeds early. Writers do things like that.

    Note: If you disagree with a theory, you don’t have to venomously say “What a dumb theory! Outlandish!” I’m not saying this is the correct interpretation. Just that it is one valid way to look at it.

  105. Jambo
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    The thing that stuck out most to me was the pronunciation of Tommen.

    I’d always said it in my head like “Tom-en”, but they were saying “Toe-men”.

  106. axia777
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard:
    Killing is far worse then rape.People don’t complain about the killing on the show.They have a rape scene where the woman is still kissing the man during it and people go crazy.

    GRRM’s famous quote is true: “I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”

    Rape victims would disagree. Ask anyone for the most part. It is like living in hell.

  107. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    At some point, I think two grown thinkers have to realize they’re not going to change each other, and they are merely expending their energies.

    Despite my position on this week’s topical scene, I really do regret that the show had to truncate Dany and Drogo’s wedding night to what we saw. That was one of the most startlingly convincing scenes I read in the books, and Dany’s arc in A Game of Thrones remains one of my favorites in the entire series. God, that was an awesome chapter, and an awesome storyline, and I’m absolutely amazed at how GRRM really got into her head at the time.

  108. Sundancer
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    “I was a bit surprised that he was able to do it, though neutered dogs still have erections, though rarely.”

    LOL, my neutered Yorkie has them all the times. Loves to hump pillows while watching TV. Drives me nuts.

  109. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Winter is not coming,

    Yeah, I think the fact that the scene doesn’t end with her mixed or consenting body language hurts it, despite the intent. Also, the dialogue really reinforces a particular prevailing interpretation, which also led me to consider it rape after multiple viewings, despite going back additional times and confirming the shifting body language at several points. Perhaps the performance was there, but the final cut doesn’t effectively convey what was meant to be conveyed. Cersei anchoring herself by tugging at the cloth really comes off as a helpless gesture more than an accepting one.

  110. Zack
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I think you’re right.

    I’ve put more than my share of words on this rape scene out there, and there is only so much that can be said before people start repeating themselves and getting frustrated. I’m just going to accept this character change and move on.

    I agree with you about the Dany and Drogo sex scenes. I did not like the approach of the TV series as much but….it was a more realistic depiction and I don’t fault them for choosing realism over sentimentality.

  111. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Not to get too deeply into this again, but I think GRRM is pointing out the American peculiarity of demonizing sex and glorifying violence in its media. Little Timmy is welcome to watch the Grown Ranger blast the baddies’ heads off with his ten-shooter, but God and apple pie forbid he sees so much as a nipple, much less an open-air L’Origin du Monde moist with enthusiasm. That’s not the same thing as tacitly picketing for more depictions of rape, which is another can of worms. I don’t mean to assign intent to your post, just wanted to point out what I find is the more likely point of that observation.

  112. The Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    axia777,

    Perhaps that is because you can ask a rape victim afterwards. A killing victim you can’t ask. Which is why it is worse. Nobody is saying rape is a good thing. It is a horrible thing. This show is about a lot of horrible things. Killing is higher up on the list of horrible things and nobody seems to care.

  113. cosca
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    axia777,

    When you kill someone, you are taking everything from them. You are robbing them of their existence, of their future. Yes, rape is a horrific and terrible ordeal, but people can recover from it, and many do.

  114. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:

    I mean JUST about our dogs. Forever.

    We got our rescue last year. She was likely abandoned in our neighborhood. She sat waiting outside our backdoor until we took her in. She’s a soft, sausage-ey Minpin, which was perfect because I’ve secretly wanted a dachschund since I read Halloweiner in grade school, and Minpins are a mix of dachschunds and Italian greyhounds. I’ve never had a dog before, and now I see my dog in the eyes of nearly every other dog I meet, no matter what size they are. Dogs are love made flesh. Man. I love my dog.

    I like my doodle, but sometimes I wish I had a direwolf.

  115. Daniellica
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: So, it’s perfectly OK to spend a lot of time discussing TV shows and movies and entertainment in general as long as it’s about how much you like it or how awesome was this or that or Crackpot Theory number 576 or Your Fancast for the next season or who would win in a fight between character A and character B… as long as you don’t dare criticize and get angry about anything in a TV show or movie; then it’s immediately “OMG how dare you, go talk about the social issues and environmental disasters instead!”

    How is that at all what I said? My previous post in this very thread demonstrates that I can’t STFU discussing not how awesome was this or that or Crackpot Theory number whateverthefuck, but what I considered might be the psychological background of the scene in question that I feel many have taken out of context. I did not say one could never get upset about anything in a TV show or movie. I get upset out of all proportion about what a steaming pile of shit The Walking Dead is, and proudly declare Katee Sackhoff’s Starbuck as my hero.

    I am not trying to insult anyone, or demean anyone, or declare anyone right or wrong about anything. You dismissed that article out of hand (seemingly) solely due to the name of its host. I was just trying to offer where I thought people fed up with such e-hysteria *might* be coming from, and then asked something that perhaps needs to be asked in the process–if we get so upset about TV, movies, celebrities because it is a safer place to vent our rage vs. the often helpless feeling of real-world problems.

    I’m a cat person. That should explain everything.

  116. axia777
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    The Bastard,

    I would also say that when one is dead they cannot care about a damn thing. When one is alive and suffering from PTSD/Rape syndrome it matters more.

    I agree that rape is down on the list from murder, but that is not the point here really. But like some are pointing out, we are just re-treading old ground now.

    All I have to say is the directors/writers/producers fucked this up huge and they are all asses for doing so. I am now moving on.

  117. Arkash
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Damn, still with the “rape” scene, everybody ? Come on !

    Personally, I see it mostly as the ultimate breaking point of a 40 years old shared-life. They both needed something so definitive to move on in their life. It was really heart-breaking in a way. That’s it. For both of them and they both admit it, each their way.

    Otherwise, from Carne’s new found synopsis, it seems Jon will be absent from episode 6 (the return from Craster’s) and that they’ll have some plot at the Wall for episodes 7 and 8.

    I was thinking the raid at Craster would happen next episode (after all, we see Karl in the promo) but I guess it will be Bran and co running into them before being saved by Jon’s expedition next episode.

  118. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    Yeah, I sense that I’m almost dooming myself to repetition as well. So long as you’ve expressed what you believe as well as you could, it will suffice.

    I didn’t see it as sentimentality winning over realism. Some may take strong issue with that framing of the decision. Let me explain my take. I actually found GRRM’s writing in that scene to be bursting with a shocking psychological realism. Dany is apprehensive about being intimate with Drogo, but he awakens the dormant desire within her. He doesn’t impose himself as the other leading lad in her life, Viserys, has always done. Drogo’s unexpected tenderness leads to her sexual awakening, despite the fact it is later implied that she suffered through the act of penetration and found no pleasure in what followed. This much was kept in the show, as we see Dany visibly dread the prospect of going to bed with him an episode later.

    Time constraints appear to be a potential culprit in preventing the original scene from being faithfully translated into a live performance. But perhaps it was the potential confusion of having her rise to consent at his touch on their wedding night, only to be full of aforementioned dread later, a dread that was a necessary obstacle for her to overcome before asserting her sexuality and establishing a true partnership. As much as I miss the original scene as written by GRRM, I gotta admit, lifting her consent out of that first scene made for a clearer arc for television.

  119. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Daniellica: I’m also really digging Alliser Thorne in his new role, and he and Jon agreeing on something was more uncomfortable than all their many conflicts. But I mean…Sam doesn’t want Gilly to be raped so he takes her to a BROTHEL? *facedesk* Sounds like Tywin needs to give the birds-n-bees talk to more than Tommen. TOE-men?

    Yes, that decision should work out just smoothly as hell. Wheee.

    axia777: I think that they did it this way for shock value alone. It blew up in their faces and now they want to deny it. It is kind of pathetic actually.

    I think this is utter crap. The amount of care that’s gone into this show – particularly with the sexual relationships between the characters that matter – makes your dismissal of it as “just for shock value” as pretty goddamned crass and pointless. I get it, you don’t like it, but “shock value”? Please. The gratuitous boobies in the brothel scenes, sure, ok, those are there to titillate and are pointless. This scene isn’t just to shock. Not when we have so much invested in this relationship already.

    You may think it didn’t work. Maybe you think they effed it all up, and that’s valid, even. But D&D have shown themselves to be way too smart to just call this shock.

  120. Porky
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Everybody is looking at this from Jaime’s standpoint. Is it possible the writers took Cersei and just made her more sympathetic? She is one of the vilest characters in both the show and book. I’m just now starting A Feast for Crows and I find her delusional and entitled. The same is true from the show’s standpoint. Maybe now we look at her a little differently.

  121. Ser Blount Sarkasm
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Aww.. y’all just so cute! I haven’t even read everything, but this online romance I just have to get in on!

    On a side note: fuck Fansided. I was watching a recap of the live video chat and the commercials are unbearable.

    Figure it out Fansided. Zack Luye (?) I blame you.

  122. Sam
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    My problem isn’t that is it is rape, it is more the way the director and writers try to pass it off as not rape in general.

    If it wasn’t supposed to be rape, then it is a failure on the editing and direction to make it seem consensual.

    Cause that is really what I’m taking most from the scene. Repeat: My problem isn’t that is it is rape, it is more the way the director and writers try to pass it off as not rape in general.

  123. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Porky,

    I definitely see Cersei as more sympathetic in the show. She’s one of GRRM’s weaker characters in terms of his writing, and Lena has been doing an awesome job bringing her to life. She was specifically cast for the shades of vulnerability she brought to the character during her audition, and I think we’ve been enjoying those dramatic dividends all this time.

    I hear you on AFFC. I also wasn’t sold on her sexual escapades, especially that strangely written experimental phasey chapter. I didn’t see how that really added much to her character and I felt awkward reading it. That said, I think Lena will kill it all when we get that far in the show, and the walk of shame will be something to behold with her at the center of it.

  124. Ser Blount Sarkasm
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Rape=bad.

    But I’m still upset about the Hound breaking his code.

  125. Falcon
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Just wanted to say that Daniellica is my hero

  126. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Can you imagine the upkeep costs, though?

    Sam,

    I say stick with the show as is if you had no qualms with it. I have a hard time not seeing it as rape, the way it’s presented, and I have defended the scene’s place in the show. Sometimes this meta-layer of fan engagement has its unforeseen costs. Some folks enjoy the show just fine on its own with little fan-targeted media and BTS revelations, and there’s a certain virtue to that simplified relationship with the series. I happen to believe that the intense fan activity behind LOST drove a lot of people to turn the show into a huge puzzle, which is why the finale disappointed so many so deeply. I watched the whole series in a matter of weeks, and found the ending to be entirely consistent with the show’s core themes, namely its emphasis on human relationships. I believe the fans who subsisted week-to-week burdened themselves with turning LOST into a game of their own make, which stole a lot of the thunder of the writing staff in the end when they didn’t reinforce that relationship with the show with their conclusion.

  127. Daniellica
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Falcon,

    *blush*

  128. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp: I definitely see Cersei as more sympathetic in the show. She’s one of GRRM’s weaker characters in terms of his writing, and Lena has been doing an awesome job bringing her to life. She was specifically cast for the shades of vulnerability she brought to the character during her audition, and I think we’ve been enjoying those dramatic dividends all this time.

    Totally. She’s a series MVP for sure. She ranks behind only Dinklage on my unofficial list of “Don’t recast this character, just cancel the show.” (The Mountain obviously ranks last, and at this point I’m hoping they just recast him 2 more times for the hell of it.)

  129. Patchy Face
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Agreed – but Mr. Graves really should have done more close ins to reveal Cersei’s involvement – a strong scene but not in the way they wanted it to be/

  130. Michael
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    One of the things that I’ve been fascinated by in this discussion is that no one seems to talk about how messed up GRRM’s original scene was. That scene has always bothered me, because it is a classic case of “No Means Yes,” the exact kind of thinking that makes sexual assault/rape one of the only major crimes where we consistently blame the victims.

    So many point to the lines where Cersei is telling Jaime “do me now…” and minimize the fact that just in the paragraph before GRRM’s account is essentially exactly the same as what we saw on TV, repeatedly she says no, Jaime doesn’t care what she says, he’s going to f**k her and he does. Somehow we’re supposed to just be okay with this because she eventually consents and seems to enjoy it. That is one of the oldest and most insidious stereotypes about women and sex.

    I could do without seeing representations of rape, just like I could do without seeing a person choking to death in their mother and father’s arms. The fact that almost everyone was cheering the murder of another human being and then this week is all up in arms over a rape in a world where murder and rape are daily threats is really something else.

    How are people going to react to Tyrion choking Shae to death because she “betrayed” him a f**ked his father? That she “deserved” it? Exactly what was she supposed to do? Declare that she loves Tyrion and would never betray him and immediately be killed or try to survive any way she can which is what she’s always done. He could no longer protect her, but few people defend Shae, she had it coming and Tyrion is left off the hook because he’s soooo heartbroken.

  131. Ashara D
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Falcon,

    I agree (as my posts in other threads dealing with this subject ad nauseam indicate), even if she is a cat person.
    And, I applaud her civility in the face of…incivility.

  132. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    I love how you took my positive thoughts and completely twisted them. Bravo.

    Sigh. I get the hypocrisy friend. I was talking about this issue specifically.

  133. WildSeed
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    Tony Day. Dammit. Who will ever forget him. I mean Tony Way. Crap.

    House Hollard, aka Captain America, in the US

  134. Michael
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Sam:
    My problem isn’t that is it is rape, it is more the way the director and writers try to pass it off as not rape in general.

    If it wasn’t supposed to be rape, then it is a failure on the editing and direction to make it seem consensual.

    Cause that is really what I’m taking most from the scene. Repeat: My problem isn’t that is it is rape, it is more the way the director and writers try to pass it off as not rape in general.

    Exactly, to me this is the most problematic aspect of this whole thing and something that reinforces all the gender/misogyny critiques people have of the show. If they owned the decision, said they wanted to remove the ambiguity and present Jaime at absolute rock-bottom, that would be one thing. The fact that it really doesn’t seem like they expected this response THAT is troubling, as is the fact that they keep backtracking in ways that sound almost exactly like the kinds of things REAL rapists say to justify their actions is disheartening.

  135. WildSeed
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    WTF ! What happened to the Edit Tab ?

  136. WildSeed
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Too controversial. I prefer cats, anyway ( : .
    Dogs are no doubt essential fun for any that adores them ( :

  137. Ashara D
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Michael,

    This is the simple beauty of the book series in a nutshell (and the tv series if taken on its own): all of these characters, all of these uncomfortable and seemingly contradictory moral quandaries, help the reader take a more critical look at their own world, humanizing them in the process. Right and wrong become a matter of perception in each situation, not a dictate from some unknown and unknowable force, thus begging the reader/watcher to take a more tolerant view of the choices others make.

  138. Ashara D
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    As for the scene: let the arc play out before making a judgement on the failure/success of this staging.

    Wait…crap! I’m repeating myself AGAIN…

    Time to let the dog out.

  139. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Joshua Atreides,

    WTF ! What happened to the Edit Tab ?

    I know right? Now my secret identity is revealed. I am not the Kwissatz Haderach alas :(

  140. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    Welcome to the hamster wheel.

    Do you let your dog roam freely to conduct his/her business? We always walk our little girl. She’d chase neighbors and other dogs halfway around the world if we let her off her leash at the wrong time.

  141. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Just watched ep3 for the 3rd time tonight and I thought it was the best viewing yet, even with some odd flaws. Few things to point out:

    – Sansa has no necklace. Does that mean the hairnet in the books is useless?

    – Tywin owned the episode, even with the “Orys” mystery king comment. Loved the semi-smirk when he stated that the Mountain would want to see Oberyn as well

    – Definitely a different take on Tommen, but he holds his own, even without kittens

    – Did anyone notice the Septon’s pause for a second and stare at Jaime before he left them alone in the sept? So telling, almost judgmental.

    – Still pissed at Hound but he is an enigma. Loved the snot though.

    – Thought I heard a dragon scream in the distance when Dany starts her speech. I’ve convinced myself I heard it.

    – Mole’s Town was still a very bad decision on Sam’s part. Need to see where this is going. Weird.

    – As others have said, the wildling/Thenn attack on the northern village will have severe political ramifications for Jon later in the series. I bet the kid tells Jon that he saw Ygritte killing innocents and Jon will do the deed during the siege. I want to see the Thenns cut down by the Watch, dammit!

    Totally intrigued by the WW figure in the ep4 preview.

  142. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor: Now my secret identity is revealed

    Oh great spice mouse, we never knew ya!

    “…I have seen things….” – Bladerunner

    [OT: Natalie Dormer with punk haircut on Seth Meyers Late Night tonight]

  143. Michael
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    I largely agree with you, in the context of this show, I defended this change because it seemed to fit perfectly within the larger theme of this episode, which is also there with Arya & the Hound (but it was so nice to them, how could they do that? The Hound is not nice and he’s trying to survive, don’t forget), and the Wildling attack on the village (how cruel to kill such a loving dad like that, how could Ygritte do that! Well, war is hell and they’re called “wildlings” for a reason, don’t forget).

    Where it really become problematic is the blinders that appear to be on the director and possibly the showrunners (as far as I know D&D have not made a statement). I think it’s important to represent the “ugly” aspects of society as much as the “heroic” and “beautiful” aspects, because when we don’t confront these things they continue on unabated. But when the producers aren’t aware of how they perpetuate the issues of sexism, in particular, it becomes really hard to defend the show.

    GOT is still my favorite show, slightly above Mad Men which also has had absolutely deplorable actions from major characters that people try to justify because they “like” the characters. I’d appreciate it more if there really was a message behind that scene, but I really don’t think they expected any of this.

  144. Greenjones
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Nah, I bet the kid, named Guymon we found out not “boy in hamlet” as his CV had said, will kill Ygritte. It’s only fair after all.

  145. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    The content of each S4 episode so far has exceeded my expectations. My only reservation is some of the awkward cuts. Maybe I have more of an eye for it now, but I see a few continuity glitches each episode, and it irks me a bit.

    I like Tommen 2.0. I enjoyed the previous actor as well, but this one definitely holds his own, and the Tywin scene played out perfectly. I was nearly giggling out of sheer delight as I first watched that scene unfold.

    Haha, yeah. And his fingersnaps reminded me a bit of Littlefinger’s similar shorthand in the brothel in S1.

    I don’t think the Hound broke his own code, but I was still angry at him. Still, to him, it’s one thing to play the pilfering parasite within a house of means, and another to take a man’s silver when he’s going to lose it all anyway. His rationalization suited his character. His main goal is his own survival, after all.

    I kind of loved how judgmental that first Mole’s Town woman was when she figured Gilly for a wildling. It was a funny double standard considering her own appearance and ragged bearing.

    It was a brutal scene. Man, the parents…

  146. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    People believe that the hairnet still has a part to play in the books? I didn’t realize that. Or am I misunderstanding you?

    I think the NW mutineers will give one of Craster’s babies to the White Walker, and that’s why it shows up in the episode. Speaking of which, what do the WW do with the babies? Is it a death pays for life type of magic? Are they used to create new White Walkers? Or do they procreate like humans? We have yet to see a female White Walker. Now I can’t help but want to see a WW sex scene. Make it happen, D&D, just please let it be consensual.

  147. Greenjones
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    For some reason I love that little exchange between that lady and Gilly. “You a fucking wildling?”

  148. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    She had a deeeeeeep voice. At first I thought we met the first trangender character in GOT.

  149. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    She was like a grossed-up Osha impersonator. I thought it was a funny little moment.

  150. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    I kind of loved how judgmental that first Mole’s Town woman was when she figured Gilly for a wildling. It was a funny double standard considering her own appearance and ragged bearing.

    Yeah, who is she to judge? I was half expecting #AngryGoTFan to rant about why they called it Mole’s Town if it wasn’t actually underground.

  151. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Haha, I forgot about that aspect of it. So it’s like a whorehouse meets Japanese sleeping tubes? (Come to think of it, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was actually a thing…)

    I really enjoy @AngryGOTFan and his facetious brand of comedy. It’s a much-needed poke at sustained book purism. The trouble comes when people take his output too seriously. #NOONEUNDERSTAAANDS

  152. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Thx for the chuckle.

    I have been wondering about the hairnet for years. She kept it. There are a few threads at Westeros that speculate about it being a possible “tool” to use against LF.

    I bet the donated male babies aren’t used as sacrifices either. Something about the Great Other isn’t what it seems. Btw, I thought I saw a female WW in the WW/wight army walking toward/past Sam at the end of S2ep10. But yes, we need equal opportunity undead.

  153. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I don’t think the show has depicted female Others, just Others in clothing. I do hope we get more scary stories out of Bran this season, including the tale of the Night’s King.

    I suspect the male sacrifices are some form of reproduction. That’s just my impression, though. Anyone remember that eerie moment when the Other picked up Craster’s child in S2 and it instantly stopped crying in its arms?

  154. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    I do hope we get more scary stories out of Bran this season, including the tale of the Night’s King.

    I suspect the male sacrifices are some form of reproduction. That’s just my impression, though. Anyone remember that eerie moment when the Other picked up Craster’s child in S2 and it instantly stopped crying in its arms?

    Oooh..will need to inspect that scene again!

    I’m getting the vibe that we’ll get a vision or story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree soon.

  155. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    There has to be some particular significance for the Others to spare Craster’s household like the Angel of Death passing over a blood-smeared door. That’s why I suspect it’s something more than sustenance or turning the infants into wights. Why male children, why so young? Also, I wonder if those touched by the Others possess any remnants of true intelligence like the fire wight-equivalents marked by R’hllor. Ice blue eyes vs. burning red eyes. Lady Stoneheart possessing enough of her old self to go on a bloody crusade, but not enough to fully count her among humanity or the living. The wights at Castle Black having demonstrated a certain intelligence in targeting Mormont in particular. Creatures made of cold, and “fire made flesh.” So many parallels!

    As for that vision, I sure hope we see it soon!

  156. Greenjones
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    And all of this or at least some of this will be hinted at in “Oathkeeper” which is why I love that they’ve invented some Craster’s Keep stuff. Also it’s interesting that they had Rast as one of the guys who stood around when Sam was telling what he knew about the WW (back when he said “I hope the Wall is tall enough” and NOW he’s in cahoots with them. Cool stuff.

  157. ace
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I like her line delivery/accent/enunciation. The accent sound familiar and unique. I know it is British but I am just not familiar with all the variations of the British accent

  158. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    My memory’s foggy. Were the mutineers dealt with in the books? Either way, I didn’t expect this development in the Night’s Watch storyline, and I’m excited to see where it goes. That glimpse of Rast running from what looked like an offering was… chilling. [laughs]

  159. Greenjones
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    The NW never dealt with them in the books, though it was implied that Coldhands butchered some of them. I think its a very promising departure from book canon because there’s a helluva lot of mystery surrounding that Keep and it also gives Bran and Jon something to do.

  160. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    The NW never dealt with them in the books, though it was implied that Coldhands butchered some of them. I think its a very promising departure from book canon because there’s a helluva lot of mystery surrounding that Keep and it also gives Bran and Jon something to do.

    Was it really wild hog that Bran & Co ate or…..? :)

  161. Zack
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Sam,

    I concur. I don’t have a problem with depicting rape scenes, as I’ve said. It would be weird to say “Rape isn’t okay to depict, but all the other horrible shit we see, perfectly fine.”

    It’s complicated. I said upthread, but we live in an era where people constantly try and justify rape or blame the victim. Murders, torture, whatever else…they don’t have that stigma of it somehow being the victim’s fault, generally speaking. So it bothers me particularly that people try and pass off what is clearly rape as not rape, or urge people to look at the context of the rape, or any of this other horse shit. Just call it what it is, don’t legitimize a person forcing him or herself on another person (men can be raped too, people) by having the victim consent in the end (“See? He/she wanted it all along!”)

    It’s not showing the rape that’s shameful. It’s trying to….minimize the behavior. “Oh, that? Psh, that’s nothing. That’s barely rape at all”

    No.

  162. jwal
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Also, if you watch the scene w/ old Daario where he gets that coin from the naked lady, the way he speaks, his affectation, it was very specific, very deliberate. Now watch that new Daario scene where he faces the Meereen champion. Yes there was a wink and a kiss of the blade, but he kinda just stood there. I have a feeling old Daario would have put more defiance in that scene. But again, different actor (an experienced actor so not some newbie), he’s gonna do his own interpretation of the character, that can’t be helped and it’s understandable.

    Haha, I’m all riled up I guess. I didn’t like book Daario or show Daario all that much anyway!

    Also, you’re right, not gonna change views on “that scene” from this episode. But some views on that tangent conversation (rape, in this case) is quite disheartening.

  163. jentario
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    wizardeyes:
    I’m so sick of this rape debate now. I wanna look forward to future episodes (even though this is a recap thread – sue me).

    So we’ve got Oathkeeper –

    “Dany balances justice and mercy. Jaime tasks Brienne with his honor. Jon secures volunteers while Bran, Jojen, Meera and Hodor stumble on shelter.”

    We know from the next time teaser that it will also feature

    Jaime/ Cersei
    Tyrion/ probably Jaime
    Sansa/ Littlefinger on ship
    Night’s Watch stuff
    Bran & Co

    And common sense tells us

    Jaime/ Brienne – gives her Oathkeeper and armour

    Brienne heads out with Pod

    Is there any other news? I want more Ramsay, Reek, Roose and Oberyn!

    There’s a shot of a White Walker in the teaser. Can’t wait to see if Bran’s shelter is indeed Craster’s Keep (which completely eliminates any hope for Coldhands) or something else. I am ready!
    #rape

  164. jwal
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    why is no one watching these AMAZING youtube animated reviews! OMG Just found them, hilarious. Here’s one I just saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKipgMLi44&list=PLg-lm9v_coadJe7ZM_7AyxA0qhZvKouTc

  165. Darren
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    Mr Fixit, Bravo!!!!

  166. Winterwailer
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    Daniellica,

    Maybe your male friends roll their eyes because the message they keep getting from television is that rape is okay?

    Where do you think cultural norms are learnt?

  167. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m still hoping it’s Coldhands… D&D must know Brans arc is a bore and in the books Coldhands was by far the most interesting part. Wouldn’t it be awesome if in ep4 Rast takes the baby into the woods and CH comes to collect it, f*cking cuts his head off, kills a number of mutineers before rescuing Bran and Co. But leaving Karl and some more for Jon to kill in ep5.

  168. john
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    Winterwailer:
    Daniellica,

    Maybe your male friends roll their eyes because the message they keep getting from television is that rape is okay?

    Where do you think cultural norms are learnt?

    No one thinks rape is “ok”. Like no one, ever. Get a grip.

  169. chamush
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 4:44 am | Permalink

    People are gonna cuss at me for saying it but that wasn’t a rape rape! She was opposed to the timing and location but not to having sex with him categorically!

    Its not like they broke up and now hes back raping her, it wasnt lovely with birds singing either but again it wasnt rape!!!

  170. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Winterwailer:
    Daniellica,

    Maybe your male friends roll their eyes because the message they keep getting from television is that rape is okay?

    Where do you think cultural norms are learnt?

    lol

  171. Bard
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    If I have to read about “rape” and “character assassination” for the next 2 weeks, I’ll choke on my own vomit.

  172. Zack
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    chamush:
    People are gonna cuss at me for saying it but that wasn’t a rape rape! She was opposed to the timing and location but not to having sex with him categorically!

    Its not like they broke up and now hes back raping her, it wasnt lovely with birds singing either but again it wasnt rape!!!

    That was my interpretation of the book scene. Her protests were not about whether she desired him or not. She was just like “We’re going to get caught if we fuck here” and Jaime was like “Don’t care”

    The show felt tonally different. Maybe it was just the act of watching vs reading, though? Maybe the intent was close to what George had in mind when he put it in the book.

  173. BranSnow
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Hey it was a good episode. And it doesn’t mater how it played out in the books because that wasn’t ‘book Jaime’ it was ‘TV Jaime’.

  174. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m still hoping it’s Coldhands… D&D must know Brans arc is a bore and in the books Coldhands was by far the most interesting part. Wouldn’t it be awesome if in ep4 Rast takes the baby into the woods and CH comes to collect it, f*cking cuts his head off, kills a number of mutineers before rescuing Bran and Co. But leaving Karl and some more for Jon to kill in ep5.


    I think it’s wishful thinking by now, unfortunately…

  175. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Bard:
    If I have to read about “rape” and “character assassination” for the next 2 weeks, I’ll choke on my own vomit.

    The former will fade. The latter will be with us until the show’s run ends. That and “whitewashing.” Anyone who is presented in a somewhat better light is being whitewashed. Anyone worse is character assassination. Which basically just leaves Hodor.

  176. Winterwailer
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    john,

    In the first season Dany is raped by Drogo. Instead of feeling abused she eventually falls in love with her assailant. The show depicts rape as having no consequences or repercussions. Sorry if I need to get a grip, but that’s not okay.

  177. Rabid Grunt
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Winterwailer:
    john,

    In the first season Dany is raped by Drogo. Instead of feeling abused she eventually falls in love with her assailant. The show depicts rape as having no consequences or repercussions. Sorry if I need to get a grip, but that’s not okay.

    Anyone with the mental capacity to turn on the television knows rape has consequence and repercussion. I don’t know about you, but I don’t watch TV to get spoon fed morals. The great thing about GoT is that things never turn out the way you predict them to… just like real life, you could say.

    Incidentally, all these people yabbering on about D&D casting rape in a not-so-dark light, do you actually watch the show? The rape of Dany plays a huge part because she later saves other women from rape, casting it in a BAD light. Sansa is saved from a rape in a very brutally depicted scene in season 2, and is later haunted by it, casting it in a BAD light. Then there’s Briennes almost rape in season 3, and Theon’s too. If a 30 second intentionally disturbing (if somewhat poorly construed) scene can nullify everything else in your eyes, then maybe it’s time to shed the blinkers.

  178. Daniellica
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Zack: It’s complicated. I said upthread, but we live in an era where people constantly try and justify rape or blame the victim. Murders, torture, whatever else…they don’t have that stigma of it somehow being the victim’s fault, generally speaking. So it bothers me particularly that people try and pass off what is clearly rape as not rape, or urge people to look at the context of the rape, or any of this other horse shit. Just call it what it is, don’t legitimize a person forcing him or herself on another person (men can be raped too, people) by having the victim consent in the end (“See? He/she wanted it all along!”)

    This is a scene in the progression of a story, and without context in a story, nothing means anything. Pointing out the context of actions in a scene within a story doesn’t “legitimize” an act of sexual violence as non-violent, but discusses its various implications leading into and out of the action in question.

    For instance, if I didn’t know the context of some of what’s coming in next week’s episode regarding Craster’s Keep,, I’d still be imagining that I’d seen Coldhands in the preview instead of realizing it’s almost certainly just a WW coming to collect another baby. Damn you, rational thought! *shakes fist*

  179. Zeus
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Have you ever had sex? Seriously, have you? This is some really strange puritanical thought. Humans like to have sex in every position and it’s not about dominance. I have even had some particularly frisky women who could be called power bottoms. That’s not about dominance pal.

    Zack: No, couldn’t be that! ;)

    It was such an absurd thing to say, lol.

    Doggy style sex is the very definition of an animalistic approach to sex: dominant male takes the female from behind. He is in the position of power, she is submitting to him.

    It was even dealt with as such in the book A Game of Thrones, as well as season one of the show. Drogo and the other Dothraki fuck their women the way their horses have sex; Dany, the white civilized woman, introduces Drogo to sex positions favored by humans when they want to look at each other while doing the deed.

    So Jaime fucking Cersei like that in Winterfell could be a coincidence, but there is symbolism of the male being dominant with his mate in the choice of position.

  180. Mimsy
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    New Daario is cool and rugged and d’lish. What’s the problem?? He also reminds me of Gerard Butler.. the 300 Gerard.. so that’s a plus. At the :43 mark, I kept expecting him to say… “earth and water.. well you’ll find plenty o’ both down there” ;)

  181. Eljuma
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    As someone who always considered Book!Jaime an utter piece of shit (yes, even after he returned to King’s Landing) I have to say I’m between baffled and amused reading all the reactions to this scene. There is an element of intolerance to changes from the book material of course, but a lot seems to revolve around the power of a pretty face and the fantasy that a ‘bad guy’ can be turned ‘good’ with the touch of the ‘right’ woman.

  182. The North Remembers
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    I was thinking the same thing. It reminds me of when George Lucas always pronounced Dooku “Duh-KOO”.

  183. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Doggy style = animalistic

    That poster = moron

    “It’s the way most animals do it in the animal kingdom”

    No shit sherlock the majority of them don’t have a choice.

    The big Diff between book sept scene is Cersei only really objects to the location and the risk of it, then gets into it… vs no, no, no this is wrong and Jaime turning into rape robot: I don’t care, I don’t care, bleep blorp.

  184. Somuchforoldtown
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    The scene in Mole town was a complete waste of screen time. Just turn the kid over to Janos Slynt and move on please.

  185. Zack
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Zeus,

    I recommend familiarizing yourself with the concept of ‘stereotypes’. Holy fuck. Something doesn’t have to be true in 100% of cases for stereotypes to exist for valid reasons.

    Jesus Christ. Don’t look for symbolism in anything. That’s much more fun.

  186. Greenjones
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    Well said.

  187. WildSeed
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    ( : can’t say fairer than that .

  188. WildSeed
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I cannot locate your previous comment about the ( book) meal shared by Bran & Coldhands. That query regarding the source of meat has been circulating since last year. The debatable flesh has been rumored to be feral pig, as I initially understood it from reading, or that of a dead Ranger beyond Craster’s Keep. I dismissed the entire debate as a red herring GRRM occasionally embed here and there, and hardly worth the mental effort. Stilll…….going from fish to canabilism to vegetarian Seer….., nah… not interested in exerting mental energy on this one.

    Refreshing to bring up points again about the actual events of the recent episode, and a nod to what’s transpired thus far. To reiterate, I thought ser Dontos’ scripted scene played out nicely. I was quite dubious of his return to the series and what capacity he might take on, with respect to Sansa. In all the ensuing pages from the book source, I recall being convinced of his sincerity , with rendezvous ‘ in the Godswood. The entire situation became compelling when we learned that he had been hired by Littlefinger. It became yet another lesson for Sansa of how easily duped she could be, if not what a person would do for a little gold. The onscreen production mastered that with full effect, in a few short scenes. I was as convinced with GoT Dontos’ grandmother’s story of a necklace and Sansa being affected by it, to honour the memory.
    It’s amusing how the writers switch up small elements to the story ( i.e. a name or an object ) as if if it would have real impacts. The hairnet , I believe, is this season’s ” Renley’s Peach “. However I cringed with the Whitecloak Knight record of historical accounts book, and referring to lord Baratheon as the “Smilng Storm “.
    Sometimes the reason only makes sense to the writers.or negligible at best since it changes so little.

    Seamless substitutes that paid off well were ( last week ) Bronn stepping in as Jaime’s fencing partner, replacing ser Illyn And Podrick serving as consult for ser Kevan. The latter was a good point to illustrate Tyrion’s mindset, and bid farewell to Pod. Although I wonder how this will play out down the line, when story lines include pivotal book scenes for Kevan Lannister.

    I’m really bored of watching the scowl on Meryn Trant’s face. I really miss the antics of the Kettlblacks’ , and sexual trysts of Cersei. She’s been Lancel and ser Osmund and Moon Boy, for all I know “. I’m befuddled why the Blue Bard was chosen to stay on, except as further implication for the insatiable sexual appetite of the Dornish ( the curse of all brown hued skin types, I suppose. *sigh* ). On that note, as if repeated unnecessary scenes weren’t enough, Oberyn’s clothed scenes with Tywin were more insightful. A declaration for his and many of Dorne’s principle toward their countrymen, and sexuality specifically. Man-candy and T&A aside, the orgy scenes did little to convey any thing of worth, IMO. Theree’s still time to resurrect the legacy of Dorne, though.

    And lastly, I am still lamenting the portrayal of Loras. How or if he gets to lead any further battles, and Dragonstone specifically, is beyond me. All GoT Loras wants to do is fluff his hair and batt his eyelashes.

    Oh Margaery, are you the widow maker ? Who knew House Clegane bore such wit among it’s offsprings. *>*

  189. WildSeed
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    LMAO. The sleeping giant has arisen ! I hope you ongoing projects fares well ( : , and the family, of course.

  190. WildSeed
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    What I want to know is this: Who in the hell is TOE-MEN?

    Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei have all pronounced “Tah-men.” The producers are calling him Toe-men. Hello?>

    And curtain call for Tony Way! Is this on?? Hello? (taps the mic)

    And where the hell is Lancel ? I know Penny will be a no show, but what about Groat ? Was he a menu item ?
    I’m really miffed about eliminating a close up of the official 77 course Royal Wedding Menu. Really disappointed…… not. The music was brilliant though.

  191. Lex
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Bard:
    If I have to read about “rape” and “character assassination” for the next 2 weeks, I’ll choke on my own vomit.

    What about “rape assassination”?

  192. Zack
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Great post! In particular I too find myself thinking about how unfortunate it is that only Meryn Trant has been named in the show, so far as I can recall. I certainly don’t have any strong mental images of any Kettleblacks if they have appeared named on the show to this point.

    Because you’re right, that quip of Tyrion’s is one of the most remembered and there are upcoming events which shall have to be re-written with other characters as stand-ins for the Kettleblack siblings. I wonder who the plot could spare, or if the writers will involve new people solely for purposes of hastening Cersei’s downfall.

    This job they’ve got, of condensing, combining, chopping, etc….I do not envy them.

  193. WildSeed
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    True True, keeping up a momentum with a television series is no easy task. Even after decisions are made, editing could easily alter a minor but necessary point.

    Speaking of editing, I don’t recall leaving the word, ” fucking ” out of the quote above. There’s been some odd goings on with posting comments of late ( disappearing edit buttons, timing out at an irregular pace, etc. ).

    Thanks for reading my post !

  194. Sam
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 3:13 am | Permalink

    Michael,

    Exactly. Because this is a universe where I think the majority just accept all the horrible actions that happen in the story, hearing the backtrack is terrible.

  195. Arya's Nose
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    The North Remembers,

    You mean the character of Dooku that he created, which doesn’t have to be pronounced the same as the Japanese word for poison since it’s a fictional character and everything? Lucas haters are sooooo dumb.

  196. http://seduceanddate.blogspot.com
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Aw, this was an incredibly good post. Finding the time and actual effort to
    make a top notch article… but what can I say… I
    hesitate a whole lot and don’t seem to get nearly anything done.


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