Season 4, Episode 4 – Oathkeeper – Recap
By Ours is the Fury on in Recap.

Jaime

Tonight’s episode “Oathkeeper” had even the book-reading fans of “Game of Thrones” wide-eyed from the shocking finish. Enjoy our book reader’s recap and feel free to share your thoughts on the episode in comments below.

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read the books yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!

Dany Jorah and Barristan
In a tent outside Meereen, Missandei is educating Grey Worm in the Common Tongue. The former slaves learn about one’s another background, before Grey Worm departs to lead a foray into the city itself with the Unsullied in disguise. Under the city, the slaves of Meereen debate the pros and cons of siding with Daenerys in her uprising, citing past failed revolts. Grey Worm silences their protests by providing weapons and reminding them that they outnumber the slave owners greatly. The slaves take up the cause and bring down the masters quickly.

Like the people of Yunkai, the newly freed people of Meereen embrace Daenerys as Mhysa, but she is not done with the masters of Meereen. The men who chose to nail 163 children to crosses along the path to the city will not be forgiven. Barristan cautions her to choose mercy, but Daenerys won’t hear of it. Nailed along the path now are 163 masters, and the Targaryen dragon flag flies triumphantly over the city.

Cersei

In King’s Landing, Jaime has regained some of his old swagger, as his sword skill with his left hand grows while sparring with Bronn. However he’s reminded he has a ways to go when Bronn uses Jaime’s own golden hand to knock him down. While chatting after their practice, Bronn reminds Jaime of his duty to Tyrion, still sitting in prison.

Bronn’s guilty reminders having been successful, Jaime stops by Tyrion’s cell and the men exchange uneasy words about the murder of Joffrey and the severity of Tyrion’s situation. He confirms he didn’t kill the king, but Jaime won’t help him escape, despite his desire to help his brother, and Cersei’s conviction that Tyrion and Sansa are guilty.

Safely sailing away from King’s Landing, Littlefinger clarifies the status quo further for Sansa, who questions why he would want to kill Joffrey when the Lannisters had helped him come to power. Littlefinger has “new friends,” he declares, and Joffrey’s death was something they wanted very badly.

Taking another turn around the gardens with her granddaughter, the Queen of Thorns reminisces about the seductive actions she took to ensure she got the husband she wanted as a young woman. She also makes it clear to Margaery, without actually stating it, that she had a hand in the king’s unfortunate end. Margaery is shocked- it seems the king’s bride is innocent of any wrongdoing.

oathkeeper7

Practicing with raw recruits in the courtyard at Castle Black, including the boy who survived last week’s wildling attack, Jon encounters a new member- Locke. The man who was sent north by Roose Bolton to seek out Bran and Rickon has joined the Night’s Watch. Locke fights another recruit and brutally takes him down, much to Jon’s chagrin. He suggests Locke take it easier, but Alliser Thorne interrupts to remind Jon that he’s a steward and has no place training men like a ranger.

Considering the future, Janos Slynt points out that sending Jon to Craster’s Keep like the young man had wanted might be a good idea, as Jon may be competition in the inevitable election for the Lord Commander position. While the men contemplate this, back in the yard Locke reintroduces himself to Jon, lying about his reasons for joining the Night’s Watch.

Drinking in her chambers, Cersei challenges Jaime’s reasons for being released, and his promise to send the Stark girls to Catelyn. She presses her brother, and though he hesitates, Jaime agrees he would break his oath and give her Sansa’s head if she demanded it.

Margaery and Tommen

Acting on her grandmother’s advice regarding her own husband, Margaery approaches Tommen in his bedchamber late at night. The boy protests at first but is charmed by the beautiful older woman. Tommen’s cat Ser Pounce joins them, and he recalls his brother’s cruelty toward his pet. After he promises not to tell anyone about her visit, she kisses him goodbye- on the forehead.

Brienne reviews Jaime’s notable acts in the White Book of the Kingsguard, but there is little on his pages but his misdeeds. Jaime presents to Brienne the Valyrian sword that his father had gifted him, and a new suit of armor custom made for her. Overwhelmed, she vows to find Sansa for Lady Catelyn- and for Jaime. Jaime then recalls he has one more gift- a squire.

oathkeeper2
Podrick Payne will be joining her when she leaves King’s Landing, in order to save the young man’s life. Bronn sees the squire off, presenting him with Tyrion’s axe from the Battle of the Blackwater. Before they bid farewell, Brienne gives the sword a name- Oathkeeper. After saying goodbye, she rides away with Pod at her side.

At the Wall, Sam frets over his decision to leave Gilly in Mole’s Town. Jon reassures him about making  tough decisions, and admits he wishes he had been strong enough to go after Bran when Sam saw him beyond the Wall. Their conversation is interrupted by a lurking Locke, who brings word that Thorne wants to see Jon. Thorne will allow the dangerous mission to Craster’s Keep, but with no assigned men, forcing Jon to go alone or find volunteers.

Jon speaks eloquently of the need to find the mutineers before Mance Rayder does, to keep the Wall safe. The mutineers also killed Lord Commander Mormont and he deserves justice. A handful of men volunteer, including Grenn, Dolorous Edd- and Locke.

Meera and Jojen
Karl, Rast, and the surviving mutineers are holed up in the keep, enjoying Craster’s daughter-wives while Karl lords over the other men. As he is about to send Rast out to feed “the beast,” as he calls it, a newborn baby is carried in.

It’s Craster’s last born child, a boy. The women explain that the boys are not killed, they’re offered to the gods- the White Walkers, Karl understands. He sends Rast outside with the baby to handle the offering. Rast lays the baby in the snow, and tends to the ‘beast’- it’s Ghost, in a cage. He taunts the direwolf, but runs off terrified when the cold winds begins to blow, signaling the arrival of a White Walker.

The cries of the baby disturb Bran and his traveling companions, camped around a fire nearby. He wargs into Summer to investigate, and finds Ghost in his cage. The vision disappears however, and it seems his wolf is trapped somewhere. The group is captured then by the mutineers, and brought before Karl.

Karl realizes Bran is highborn, and Bran is soon forced to reveal he’s Brandon Stark of Winterfell. Rast recognizes the name, knowing he’s Jon’s brother. Karl is thrilled, knowing he has a valuable hostage.

White Walker
A White Walker has collected the baby and is returning home. He brings the child to a ring of pillars, and places it in the center. Another White Walker steps forward from a line of figures, picks up the baby, touches his cheek…and the baby’s eyes turn electric blue like a White Walker’s.

Baby

Things I Liked
Essos Rising- From Grey Worm and Missandei’s getting-to-know-you session to Daenerys’s ruthlessness with the masters, the Essos portion of the show was perfect.

That finish
- I’m still processing it, but it blew my mind. Does this line up with what’s planned for book canon? Who knows? Either way, wow.

New recruits at the Wall- I wasn’t sure what to think about moving Locke to the Night’s Watch when we heard the rumor last year, but I like what I’m seeing so far. More Noah Taylor is always a good thing. And it seems like the boy from the village may be something of a Satin equivalent this season, with his archery skill and him joining the Watch now. I’m thinking he’s destined for another encounter with a redhead this season.

Oathkeeper- Though the effect is diminished by last week’s debacle in the sept, the Jaime and Brienne scenes were still very strong.

Ser Pounce- What’s not to love?

Things I Didn’t Like
More sexual mistreatment- I get that it happens in the GoT world, but I’m bored with it onscreen, especially when it’s for no necessary story purpose. We know that Karl is creepy and dangerous and the mutineers are no good already. We don’t need to belabor the point that way.


714 Comments

  1. Polish
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Mitt Romney?

  2. M
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    This was a very different episode – very little of it was in the books which people are screaming about. It felt like a filler episode but honestly, not every episode can be bang-boom action-packed. I’m fine with the filler. I’m just wondering where they’re going with the Bran thing. Anything’s better than ‘Wandering in the woods for 65 years’.

  3. loki
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    I’d be king of the world with first comment.

  4. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    I want a white walker for Christmas!

  5. Ser Justin
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Wtf?! That was such a departure from the books (minus Jamie and Brienne). I… I don’t know what’s happening anymore.

    Happy for Ser Pounce!

  6. arden
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was good. finally getting closure on craster leaving babies which isnt in the book at all lmao.. nice scene overall the spikes are there which is true to the books :) amazing episode.. bravo cogman and crew

  7. Polish
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Ok but seriously, wowww. dat shit not in the book

    It felt really LotR-esque… but it was also awesome.

    Locke at the Wall…. crazy dynamic. Allister Thornes… definitely badguys / douche.. Cheering for Tormund now in their fight.

    So that kid is a great archer, eh?Combined with him seeing Ygritte kill his dad, he’s definitely putting an arrow in her in episode 12

  8. anthony johnson
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Holy moly!
    BRAN IS AT CRASTERS!
    WHITE WALKERS!
    BABY WHITE WALKERS!!!

    sorry for the caps but being a book reader this episode marks the firat time I have ever been just shocked and surprised. Absolutely amazing curve balls!

  9. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Since this went up so quickly, I’ll just copy past my comment from open thread.

    Where to even begin?

    The most important thing in this episode? SER POUNCE!!!! Thank you Bryan!

    I just have so many questions about the WW scene. Is it from what GRRM has told them or is made up for the show? Is the baby now a WW? Are all White Walkers formerly human? I’m so intrigued!

  10. Hodor
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    WHITE WALKER DARTH MAUL!

  11. Arthur
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Great Episode!

    It was awesome for me to watch because I’m
    a book reader but there was so many changes and stuff going on tonight that didn’t happen in the books that I finally got to see what it feels like to be an unsullied!

    Oh what a great feeling it was indeed you lucky bastards!

    I wish I never got so into the show that I read all the books so I could still enjoy the TV plot twists and character arcs as much as unsullied and tonight that wish was granted!

    I have to watch this again so laterzzzz… =]

  12. Jared
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Great, great episode. I was on the edge of my seat for the entire hour. The conversation between Jaime and Brienne was excellent. Dany exacting her version of justice on the slavers was also highly enjoyable. The scene where Margaery went craddle-robbing, with Olenna’s encouragement, had me cackling – and it featured a cameo from Ser Pounce! Bran was indeed captured by the mutineers at Craster’s Keep, as many of us had theorized. And that business with the White Walkers at the end .. damn!

    Speaking off which … there’s one more unforeseen but ultimately welcome development. Namely, we have officially arrived at the point where the TV show has begun to reveal things that have not yet been explicitly revealed in the books!

    Any purists out there may begin their incessant whining now.

  13. ReadJunk
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Lots of new things added in, it’s different but I liked it. I guess have to make Bran’s storyline interesting.

  14. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    I felt very unsettled anytime Locke showed up. His character had me so nervous. Effing Boltons man

  15. anthony johnson
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Let not forget ser pounce. I was afraid they would retool Tommen because of the age up process. Glad there are so many nods to the book in his character

  16. Juliana Muirhead
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    I am, yes, somewhat happy with these departures from the books. Sorry, it’s nice to not know exactly what is going on.
    Especially Tyrion/Jamie scene.
    King T is adorable.

  17. Amanda M
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader, I really liked being shocked for once haha. Most of the changes I am ok with. Especially Locke. I am loving him!

    I teared up during that Jaime and Brienne scene though haha. Knew it was coming, but it still hit me hard. I love them way too much haha. This was a great Jaime episode. Made up for last week!

  18. arden
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    ur really not kidding though im convinced hes jumping Jon at Crasters.

  19. Anthony
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Hodor,

    Lmao! I said the same thing.

  20. FNF
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    The show is pretty much a fan-fic now, with some good episodes and some bad episodes. Tonight’s was mostly good minus the Craster Keep crap. What a waste of time imo. The Great Other spoiler for us Sullied? Interesting. That looked like Winds of Winter material imo, considering GRRM said we would be looking further north than ever before.

  21. Michel
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    I DON’T CARE ABOUT SER POUNCE, I DONT CARE ABOUT LOCKE ON THE WALL, I DONT CARE ABOUT JON KNOWING THAT BRAN LIVES, I JUST CARE ABOUT THE LAST SCENE! EVEN US BOOK READERS GOT SPOILED, WHAT WAS THAT!?!? DID WE SEE WINDS OF ALWAYS WINTER?!?! DID WE GET A CONFIRMATION THAT THERE IS A WHITE WALKER LEADER?? DID WE JUST DISCOVERED THAT ALL WW WERE BABY HUMANS BEFORE TURNING WW!!!!?!?!??!!? MY MIND JUST BLEW

  22. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Before everyone goes into a frenzied debate about deviations:

    - Absolutely loved the Littlefinger line “grow strong” in reference to his “new friends”. Brilliant.

    - These deviations from the book were AMAZING to me. Welcome changes.

    - Ghost and Summer better survive.

    -”Sansa’s not a killer… Yet”

    Am I the only who constantly listens for hints at future storylines? Wooooow. Amazing episode I thought.

  23. Tom M
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    No Small Paul? Who can interpret for Hodor?

    Srsly, more of the ladypart abuse. When will it end? Oh, right, HBO, so never? Weird story choices but interesting intersections. I’m glad they let Meera keep her fur on at least.

  24. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Angrygameofthrones fan is bitching that D&D spoiled the books for the first time lol

    https://twitter.com/angrygotfan/status/460602525394022400

  25. garik16|
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Worst Episode of the Series by far.

    They needed to add to Jon and Bran plotlines due to where they are in sequence. Fine. So they made the two go together for some reason. Fine. Bit silly, but maybe that works.

    But of course, you needed to showcase:
    1. Additional rape and brutality that wasn’t in the books.
    2. Additional Child Murder, AND MAKING THE WIVES (Innocent and abused in the books) complicit in it.

    Then let’s add plot holes like WHY THE HELL ARE THEY KEEPING THE DIRE WOLVES ALIVE (and how is Ghost not starving to death).

    Like WTF.

  26. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    My spoiler tags didn’t work right and I can’t edit

  27. arden
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Michel,

    literally my thoughts like wtf is that the leader? whats with the formation of them then??? wtf tho

  28. JoffreyTrueKing
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    In Book 3, at the mutiny at Craster’s Keep, Craster’s daughter tell Sam that he has to help Gilly, because “the baby’s brothers are coming to take him”.

    So yeah, we had hints years ago that WW were formerly human babies.

    I don’t know why other people are complaining (don’t know if here), it was a nice fantasy touch.

    Also Ser Pounce :D

  29. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Wow, an amazing episode. They showed that the Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger were behind the poisoning. In the books it takes forever to get to that point and it is done kind of cryptically.

    The White Walker stuff isn’t even in the books.

    Did anybody else notice that where they placed the baby…. It looks like the fist of the first men?

    No way the books finish first based on where they are going with the show.

  30. DavyJones
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    this felt a lot different then previous episodes…

  31. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    garik16|,

    Leaving Ghost alive is a legitimate plot hole argument. Strange choice there. Especially since we’ve seen what happened to Grey Wind

  32. cosca
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Well, George is FUCKED. That’s some pretty big spoilers right there.

    Thought it was a very good episode overall, loved most of the scenes.

    1. 4×02
    2. 4×01
    3. 4×04
    4. 4×03

  33. Skye
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t realise I was such a purist until now. Most of the changes haven’t bothered me but this episode drove me crazy.
    I’m dying to know if George told D&D that’s what white walkers do with babies. White walkers are dead right? So if they are turning the babies into white walkers won’t they just have a mess of frozen zombie babies? They won’t grow up if they’re dead.

  34. JoffreyTrueKing
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    garik16|,

    “Additional Child Murder, AND MAKING THE WIVES (Innocent and abused in the books) complicit in it.”

    And why is it a bad thing? I mean, if you’re making shitty people at least not reduce it to males.

    Also, remember that they are alive BECAUSE Craster kept giving away the babies to the WW, if not they would have already been killed by them. So yeah, don’t see why they souldn’t be on it (especially the older ones).

  35. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    LMAO at the book readers freaking out because the show took a huge turn from the books and even might have spoiled some things.

    D&D have shown that they might go different paths but they always hit the key scenes the way they were in the books.

    It is nice to see them pass the books in certain ways with this episode. No way this goes beyond 7 seasons after what we just saw today.

  36. rudy
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    I’m soo happy to finally be surprised it’s great seeing them deviate from the books a little

  37. AStroKreep182
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Soooo, I take it that wasnt Coldhands :/

    At least we see Ghost, and know we know how he gets to Jon.

    AND ALL THAT FORESHADOWING!

  38. Interior Bannister
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    So thats what it is like to be an Unsullied!
    That was AWESOME. THE ENDING BLEW MY MING

  39. jwal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Ghost! Summer! Bran? oh well, I’m so happy!

  40. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    They sure do like to cage and trap the direwolves, don’t they? No fuckin’ respect, man.

    I am uncomfortable in my sudden UnSullied state of existence.

  41. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Kind of confused why keeping Ghost Alive is a plot hole. There is conversation of “you should kill that thing”. He’s just sadistic probably wants to see if he can turn Ghost into a play thing like they did with Hodor.

    I dunno, much like the freak out of last week, can’t we just wait to see how it all plays out before calling it all a farce?

  42. Arthur
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    I tearee up during the Jaime/Brienne scene too and I’m a bald guy with a goatee!

    It was a great scene!

  43. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Some purists are going to be pissed off, but they are wrong. That was a great episode. Bran’s story line was moving too fast. They needed add something and the new material worked. I felt tense the whole time and can’t wait for the next episode. It should be action packed.

    I’m happy that Grey Worm gets to have a personality. It’s nice that we got to hear a little about Missendei’s background too.

    Littlefinger’s speech was great. Let Sansa’s transition from pawn to player officially begin!

    I must say Brienne’s glance back at Jaime made my girly little heart flutter. And thank you Bryan for keeping Ser, my lady! Love it.

    I really hope Marg doesn’t actually molest Tommen. The conflict between her and Cersei in the coming episodes/seasons is going to be epic. Apparently we’re losing Olenna though. That sucks. I was hoping they’d keep her for longer.

  44. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Stark’s storyline is my sole motivation for watching this season. Sophie and Aiden are doing brilliantly and are pretty much keeping the show afloat for me, personally.

    All the violence against women (ie extra rape, abusive forced nudity) is disgusting and the fact that they didn’t address the Jaime/Cersei rape scene this episode really bothered me. Jaime is just going to return to the same character as before, and everyone’s just going to forget about it? How realistic, sadly. (How many rape cases go unsolved or unrecognized in real life?)

    Very disappointed as a show and book fan at the moment.

  45. cosca
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    A Song of Ice and Fire is dead. Long Live Game of Thrones.

  46. Braman
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    One of my favorite episodes of the entire series. Wow, I love the departures from the book – instead of trying to figure out what episodes the events that I know are going to happen will be in, I’m trying to just figure out what happens next. Boom – my mind has been blown!!!!

  47. John
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Skye,

    Wights are dead. Others are … well, we don’t really have any idea.

  48. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Skye:
    I didn’t realise I was such a purist until now. Most of the changes haven’t bothered me but this episode drove me crazy.I’m dying to know if George told D&D that’s what white walkers do with babies.White walkers are dead right? So if they are turning the babies into white walkers won’t they just have a mess of frozen zombie babies? They won’t grow up if they’re dead.

    Nah, I bet D&D just made stuff up about the WW. Sarcasm ended.

    D&D have been so faithful to the books. They even know how they end in broad strokes. It is highly unlikely they would just add in huge details about the WW without GRRM giving them very specific details.

    Good Bye Books. Hello TV Show. We are all unsullied now.

  49. house snow
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    The best part of this episode is that book reader who constantly ruin threads might stop watching the show and ruining the experience for the rest of us because they don’t want to get spoiled. HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES.

  50. el
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Skye,

    I vaguely remember reading a quote from GRRM that the White Walkers are actually a race and not zombies as most people assumed.

  51. gewa76
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone else have their HBO feed screw up and start showing an ending from True Blood? Wait…that was Game of Thrones???

  52. Arthur
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I’m a book reader, not a book purist.

    As a book reader this episode really was enjoyable for the meer fact that I did not know wtf was going on.

    I loved that feeling and as long as all the characters stay IN character and hit all their important destination points I welcome book changes put into the show…

    Especially if done this well!

  53. kabhal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    garik16|,

    We don’t know when they captured Ghost. It could’ve been very recently.

  54. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    The fact that crasters kids become white walker is actually hinted at in the book, its like one line in chapter where craster wifes give sam gilly and the baby, the last lines of the chapter is something like, “you have to leave now, his (referring to gilly’s son) brothers are coming for him its not confirmed, and totally a spoiler for the future books.

  55. KG
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I’m ok with the changes.

    The mutineers are probably all dead men walking anyway, so it doesn’t matter if they know about Bran or not.

  56. Commenter
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    That White Walker looked:
    33%-Ice Zombie
    33%-Tywin
    33%-Darth Maul
    1%-Fuck you I didn’t know what to do with the extra percentage point.

  57. Dark Heart
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    How they managed to overcome Ghost is beyond me, but otherwise I am very excited to see how this all turns out.

    Looks like Locke will be sticking with the NW for a while. I figure him being present really adds tension as people know that something will happen, but don’t know when.

    I guess he’ll be there till the events of Book 5 happen.

  58. John W
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Well this tells me that HBO is not waiting on GRRM to finish TWoW. They’re going to finish it their way.

    Well I don’t think anyone will be talking about the rape scene this week.

  59. gia
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    OMFG! just had a thought! probably won’t happen tho but still: Jon and Bran meet, Jon won’t let Bran continue north until Jojen tells him a secret to prove Bran’s on the right path……..”Ned StarK’s not yo dad!” and other things AHhhhhhHHH, that would definitely be a Future Book Spoiler.

    I know, I know, won’t happen :(

  60. The Spider
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Oh my god the show is starting to overtake the books this very season! The Great Other?! A hunter that Sansa will kill in the future?! ( Im looking at you SweetRobin) George needs to hurry up ir the books will become novelizstopns of the TV Show!

  61. Bob
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    First post here. As a book reader, I LOVED this episode. There were a lot of departures, but I loved all of them. WW scene at the end was incredible.

  62. Anguissette1979
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Skye,

    “Wights” are reanimated corpses. I don’t think we know what the heck the White Walkers are yet but I’ve always thought of them as their own distinct living species.

  63. jwal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    also, can we have an episode without rape? thanks :(

  64. Ashara D
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    So cool to see stuff that is just hinted at in the books! I felt like a real Unsullied tonight. Gotta watch again. My Unsullied family was asking me questions and I had to just keep saying, “I don’t know. This didn’t happen in the books!” Loved Brienne and Pod and can’t wait to see their adventures. Cersei’s dismissal of Jaime. The “growing strong” transition. Grey Worm and Missandei getting to know each other. Next week: Lysa!

  65. LordStarkington
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I’m confused by some of the “WTF?!” reactions to the last scene from book readers. Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but wasn’t “White Walkers are using Craster’s sacrifices to build their army” an old/popular theory over at westeros.org? It may not be in the books, but it wasn’t that surprising to me.

  66. Sinfyre
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I was shocked tonight. I’m a book reader and I was shocked…. and I kinda liked it. Twitter seems angry though.

  67. LordVega
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Great Episode!

    It was awesome for me to watch because I’m
    a book reader but there was so many changes and stuff going on tonight that didn’t happen in the books that I finally got to see what it feels like to be an unsullied!

    Oh what a great feeling it was indeed you lucky bastards!

    I wish I never got so into the show that I read all the books so I could still enjoy the TV plot twists and character arcs as much as unsullied and tonight that wish was granted!

    I have to watch this again so laterzzzz… =]

    The sweet irony is the unsullied didn’t enjoy this episode as much as we did. My girl was looking at me dumb founded like Wtf are you so excited for? You’d have to have read the books to catch the implications of the changes and obvious future book spoilers.

  68. nymeria44
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Fantastic episode! on the edge of my seat the whole time. Loved Margery with Tommen, Jaime with Tyrion and the WW at the end. I was finally in the dark just like my husband who has never read the books. I need some more Fire and Blood ale while I watch that episode again!

  69. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Skye:
    So if they are turning the babies into white walkers won’t they just have a mess of frozen zombie babies? They won’t grow up if they’re dead.

    LMAO! Best laugh of the day. Can you picture it? What is going on here? I must deal with this crazy turn of events with humor and screams. Aaaaahhhhhhhhh!

    Anyone want to discuss rapegate? We got the answer pretty loud and clear…..sort of.

  70. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    loki,

    What happened to Hodor?

  71. JoffreyTrueKing
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    el,

    It’s just the whole “wight/White Walker” relationship that gets a lot of people confused. Wights are zombies, WW are an entirely other race.

  72. Mike
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Are the people claiming the final scene was some sort of spoiler the same people who were up in arms about Renly and Loras being gay? Because that would explain a lot…

  73. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    OMG. In my WW frenzy, I forgot that “Sansa’s not a killer…yet” freaked me out too. What does it mean? Does this mean she kills LF? That’s what I’m hoping!

  74. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    The WW are not bad guys. This is not a story about good vs. evil.

    This show is so awesome.

  75. Polish
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    By the ways guys…. tons of mentions of Catelyn Stark, “Catelyn Stark is dead”, etc etc etc. SETTING THIS SHIT UP

  76. Mariamb
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Great episode. Enjoyed the deviations from the book.

    Loved Jaime and Brienne parting, the appearance of Ser Pounce, Olenna and Margaery, Sansa’s awareness.

    Didn’t like Ghost in a cage and I hope that he makes someone pay. Karl better not hurt my girl, Meera.

  77. Dominique Lavigne
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    OK, so Margaery VS Boros Blount at Tommen’s door, days after the king’s assassination?

    Did they keep unsaid what my imagination tells me they kept unsaid???

  78. Cumsprite
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    FNF:
    The show is pretty much a fan-fic now …

    LOL. By the end of next season, Martin is going to be the one writing the fanfiction. It’s almost poetic.

  79. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    House Nieder,

    OMG.In my WW frenzy, I forgot that “Sansa’s not a killer…yet” freaked me out too.What does it mean?Does this mean she kills LF?That’s what I’m hoping!

    Littlefinger or Cersei is my guess.

  80. tysnow
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Deviations from books…

    1) Unsullied freed slaves, and Ser Barristan and Jorah were not commanding them.
    2) Cersei asks Jaime to kill Sansa.
    3) Margery gives Tommen his first unintentional bed ejactulation.
    4) Jon knows about Bran
    5) Locke at the wall and volunteers for…
    6) Nightwatch attack on Craster keep
    7) Bran gets captured by NW mutineers
    8) The Reeds suck, book Reeds would never allow themselves to get caught or even noticed.
    9) Ghost and Summer get captured.
    10) Hodor gets seriously injured in the leg. (Could show Hodor be on the way out?)
    12) Bran tells mutineers he is a Stark.
    (of course everything involving Craster’s deviates)
    13) We actually see Kingdom of Always Winter and WW nobility (females?)
    ( I wonder if we will see the beautiful sexy WW Queen that seduces you know who 1000 years ago, because I forgot his name.)

    Well, after tonight episode GoT is officially a loose adaption.

  81. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhg thank you d&d and Bryan especially!!! That may have been my favorite episode. I think I finally understand how fing GOOD this show is when you don’t know wtf is going to happen! Holy crap! More like this please!!

    Also, BRING on the book spoilers, more, MORE!!!!!!

    P.s. Sir pounceee

  82. Carl Drago
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Wow don’t even know where to start. I’m a book reader and I loved every bit of this episode.

    -Finally got more Grey Worm
    -I like the changes at the Wall, Locke is a great character
    -THE ENDING. WOW WHAT DOES THIS MEAN. Unsullied we’re all in this together now

  83. Lex
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Haha, haven’t seen it yet but sounds controversial (as usual).

    Did they discuss/acknowledge the rape/not-rape?

  84. Ser Justin
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Ya, I guess they needed to add to Bran’s storyline. It would’ve been cool is they had created a character, let’s call him “Coldhands”. And this new character could ride a deer. And maybe he could help Bran and co. get to where they need to be. That would’ve been a cool twist.

    Luckily Jon Snow knows where Bran is now! That worked out nicely.

  85. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I don’t know!! But like, why put that line in, you know?

    I’m just reading too much into it, haha. But she’s becoming a player! Just like your comment said. Amazing. Very much looking forward to her scenes with Lysa next week! Wow!!

  86. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Ser Justin,

    I really was hoping for Cold Hands. Still holding on to hope.

  87. James
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Jaime/Cersei. Man, I can’t take how much they have screwed up this relationship. After the rape I just want them to separate already so I don’t have to watch the train wreck.

    I’m definitely open to this Bran storyline. Sticking to the books in this case would be boring. We’ll have to wait and see whether this plotline will actually work.

    Disappointed that we have yet another episode where women are sexually assaulted. This has become a constant on the show and it’s troublesome to say the least.

    Really liked the Margaery/Tommen and Sansa/Littlefinger scenes. The Eyrie next week, can’t wait!

  88. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Carl Drago,

    Completely forgot to mention Locke. Wow! Had my skin crawling. I’m wondering if we’re not going to get his. . . Mutilated corpse anymore like his book counterpart Vargo Hoat.

  89. Edie
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Jared,

    Totally agree..and this makes me happy because tho I am a reader, I am 70yrs old w a severely diseased heart…prob won’t make it and I will really be angry if I die before next season.

  90. Dan
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    I love the show and really liked this episode, but if we get another scene like that last one then I’ll have to quit watching. I have zero desire to see the story unfold on tv before I can read it. Hopefully, that won’t happen again this season, though, so I can get through at least the rest of this year before I have to hold off on the watching the show.

  91. Pedro
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Great episode!

    I’m a book reader, but the changes were awesome! Jon’s and Bran’s storyline should have been like that in the books! Plus, the White Walker scene was a pleasant surprise.

  92. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Haha, haven’t seen it yet but sounds controversial (as usual).

    Did they discuss/acknowledge the rape/not-rape?

    The big controversy this episode is the show very possibly spoiling the book. The scene with Jaime and Cersei was cold so I think they dealt with it well

  93. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Deviations from books…

    1) Unsullied freed slaves, and Ser Barristan and Jorah were not commanding them.
    2) Cersei asks Jaime to kill Sansa.
    3) Margery gives Tommen his first unintentional bed ejactulation.
    4) Jon knows about Bran
    5) Locke at the wall and volunteers for…
    6) Nightwatch attack on Craster keep
    7) Bran gets captured by NW mutineers
    8) The Reeds suck, book Reeds would never allow themselves to get caught or even noticed.
    9) Ghost and Summer get captured.
    10) Hodor gets seriously injured in the leg. (Could show Hodor be on the wayout?)
    12) Bran tells mutineers he is a Stark.(of course everything involving Craster’s deviates)
    13) We actually see Kingdom of Always Winter and WW nobility (females?)( I wonder if we will see the beautiful sexy WW Queen that seduces you know who 1000 years ago, because I forgot his name.)

    Well, after tonight episode GoT is officially a loose adaption.

    Loose adaption? The show has always taken slightly different roads to the big events and then paid off the big events extremely similar to the books. This is episode is another example of this.

    The episode did give huge TWOW spoilers. And that is probably why so many people are complaining. The book purists are out of control.

  94. Greenjones
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    So as Tyrion put it, GoT “made the bald man cry”. Good on them.

  95. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Remember the day that the Red Wedding was spoiled for you by somebody on the internet?

    Today is that day for millions of book readers when we went to the far North.

  96. King Tommen
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    The best part about tonight’s episode is that it broke the Westeros.org message boards.

  97. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    So he didn’t drop dead of an aneurysm? Thank the gods!

  98. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Regarding Craster’s wives: I was always under the impression that they were somewhat complicit (although in a brainwashed Stockholm syndrome kind of way) with the sacrifices to the gods. It read to me like Gilly has always been a deviation from the Craster’s Keep norm.

    I could have done without more rape after last week’s episode too. I just really hope Meera doesn’t become a victim. The skull thing would have been sufficient to give the impression that Karl is a horrible person.

    Does anyone think Rast is going to turn on Karl and help Jon & co. next episode? He didn’t seem to be very happy there and he looked guilty about the baby.

    I just realized that the title Oathkeeper also relates to the pact Craster had with the WW continuing to be upheld. Well played show.

  99. The Brown Viper
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    The only thing I can honestly say I was really annoyed with in this episode is the fact that Sam broke his promise to Bran and told Jon he was still alive. Other than that the WW scene was dope. DOPE! Purist might want to stop watching the show now. Game of thrones is in the driver seat!

  100. Jake
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Burn Gorman is so great! He gets some awesome lines, and delivers them like a pimp. Other than Bran & Co. being at Craster’s/sending Jon to Craster’s, I really liked this episode. Definitely seems like some TWoW material at the end.

  101. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    tysnow,

    I’m thinking that there are 3 levels of craziness up north:

    1) Board of Directors: The Others, led by the Great Other (CEO)
    2) White Collar Middlemen: WWs
    3) Blue Collar Workers: Wights

    It’s fuckin’ corporate capitalism. I’m very scared now.

    Actually, that last scene wasn’t anything new…it just wasn’t shown in the books firsthand.

  102. AA
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I loved the little thematic touches, like beginning the episode with a shot of fire and ending with…all that. Also, the shot of Jaime sitting in Tyrion’s cell was reminiscent of him in the cage in Season 2. I’d have to go back but I think he was sitting the same way and the shot was framed similarly. And the oathkeeper theme running through to Jon’s story and the mutineers.

  103. Porky
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I recall reading a GRRM interview in which he states the showrunners have seen his WOW manuscripts. They also know the end game of the series, so I think it’s safe to assume some of it was spoilers. You can definitely connect the dots, though the show cannot duplicate the scope of the books. I was a show viewer before book reader, so this doesn’t affect me at all. I understand the other perspective, but it was inevitable. I enjoyed tonight’s episode more than I did last weeks.

  104. Polish
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    So basically… Mormont knew that Craster was feeding the WW new members… and he was cool with it… because he cared about battling Wildlings more than WWs?? How many new WWs did Mormont allow Craster to create? And as hard as it is to kill one of the motherf***ers…

    Also, Locke element is sOOper fun and scary and devious

  105. RhymesWithWeak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    So…how long till Tommen gets a handy under the covers?

    LS is gonna happen.

    Sam spilled the beans about Bran?

    Locke adds some sweet suspense not in the books.

    They basically confirm theories for Joff’s murder…and it’s multi-layered!

    WW only accept babies into their crew?

    I guess when books go to TV it changes what you draw out for suspense…which really is fine I guess…it’s like the Barristan reveal in the books…he’s got like four Dany chapters before we know…they cant do that on TV.

    We get the info sooner on TV….

  106. Michel
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Now that my mind is already calm after the last scene, I think the Tyrion talking that Sansa isn’t an assassin YET is a HUGE FORESHADOWING, tey wouldn’t add that line for nothing!

  107. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    The continued amount of violence against women on this show is so disgusting (ie rape, sexualized abuse). The fact that they felt it was necessary to have Craster’s wives nude and so obviously abused by the Night’s Watch mutineers was appalling. The raping of the wives is understandable, but to show it gratuitously on screen and in copious shots is really unsettling.

    And the fact that Jaime’s rape of Cersei wasn’t addressed makes me furious. She was cold to him as she would be anyway because of her son’s death, but not because she was forcibly dragged to floor and abused by Jaime. What the hell HBO, D&D? Completely unnecessary scene that taints character development and then you think it’s okay to not finish what you started? Keep digging yourself that grave and see where you end up.

    (The show is held up by certain characters. I enjoy all of Aiden and Sophie’s material, the only storyline I feel they’re doing justice to this season. The Brienne/Jaime scenes were golden save for Jaime returning to his past self without explanation. I loved the Marg/Tommen scene, I thought it was precious and Ser Pounce! Thank you Bryan Cogman! I got chills when the Targ banner was hoisted atop the pyramid. Otherwise, I am very unease with the way things are playing out right now.)

  108. jwal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    why is Bran such a jerk lately? He’s only 8? what’s with the teenage attitude (and yes I know he’s not 8 in the show)

  109. Interior Bannister
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    I knew people would hate this episode because its starting to go into uncharted book territory

    Can’t people just enjoy rather than complain. This fanbase has become so negative as the show is getting better

  110. Jared
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Edie,

    I’m very sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope that you’re doing OK, and that you will continue to be able to enjoy this great series along with the rest of us!

  111. Breeze
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Am I wrong in thinking there is a different between the White Walkers and The Others? It was my understanding that White Walkers/wights were the dead people who come back due to an influence from The Others who are these supernatural beings who look like Darth Maul and turn babies into more “Others”.

    I wouldn’t have minded the plot-shock if it didn’t seem so cheesy…I miss the mystery.

  112. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    The Brown Viper,

    Did he promise in the show, I don’t remember?

  113. GDG
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    I….. LOVED the episode.

    Loved it.

    I’m a book reader, but I truly have faith in the show runners. They know what they’re doing, people. :)

  114. Nathalie
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Best mind fuck ever! I need a cigarette!

  115. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Vargo Hoat got mauled by a bear.

    Maybe Locke will got mauled by two direwolves?

  116. MrKrisoff
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    I have read the books through three times and i still don’t know sometimes wtf all of you are saying with your abbreviations. Got most of them. But, what the hell is D&D?
    Anyways. I don’t particularly remember Bran ever even going near Crasters Keep. Did that really happen in the books or was that added in?

    Or maybe Sansa kills her crazy aunt….

  117. The Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird:
    The continued amount of violence against women on this show is so disgusting (ie rape, sexualized abuse). The fact that they felt it was necessary to have Craster’s wives nude and so obviously abused by the Night’s Watch mutineers was appalling. The raping of the wives is understandable, but to show it gratuitously on screen and in copious shots is really unsettling.

    And the fact that Jaime’s rape of Cersei wasn’t addressed makes me furious. She was cold to him as she would be anyway because of her son’s death, but not because she was forcibly dragged to floor and abused by Jaime. What the hell HBO, D&D? Completely unnecessary scene that taints character development and then you think it’s okay to not finish what you started? Keep digging yourself that grave and see where you end up.

    (The show is held up by certain characters. I enjoy all of Aiden and Sophie’s material, the only storyline I feel they’re doing justice to this season. The Brienne/Jaime scenes were golden save for Jaime returning to his past self without explanation. I loved the Marg/Tommen scene, I thought it was precious and Ser Pounce! Thank you Bryan Cogman! I got chills when the Targ banner was hoisted atop the pyramid. Otherwise, I am very unease with the way things are playing out right now.)

    The violence against women in this show is disturbing? A few episodes of rape and people are all freaking out.

    Men on the show are killed all of the time. That is far more disturbing then rape.

    Both are horrible of course.

  118. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    All of this makes me really sad because even if Bran didn’t go to Craster’s and they just kept with his storyline of travel, people would complain.

  119. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    MrKrisoff,

    D&D are the producers of the show. David Benioff and Dan Weiss

  120. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Didn’t Vargo Hoat have his arms, legs, etc. Removed?

  121. whiteladder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    JoffreyTrueKing:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    In Book 3, at the mutiny at Craster’s Keep, Craster’s daughter tell Sam that he has to help Gilly, because “the baby’s brothers are coming to take him”.

    So yeah, we had hints years ago that WW were formerly human babies.

    I don’t know why other people are complaining (don’t know if here), it was a nice fantasy touch.

    Also Ser Pounce :D

    Thank you! It’s been implied in ASoIaF for YEARS that the Others turned Craster’s sons into more Others. I’m not sure what all the fuss is about.

    This was my favorite episode this season. I came to terms with the fact that show =\= books back in Season 2. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, people!

    Also, Locke is awesome.

  122. GeekFurious
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    1) Just as I predicted, there was zero mention of the “rape” because it wasn’t a rape, just a poorly edited scene.

    2) Ser Pounce!

    3) Some excellent talky scenes mostly at King’s Landing.

    4) Weird, weird changes from the books. And I’m not someone who gets too bothered by changes from the books but I do sometimes worry because I know they have to invent a lot down the road and we saw some generic action/adventure tropes utilized in this episode.

    5) Woah. Book 6/7 spoilers much?! FUCK!!!! Now I know how non-book readers feel when they go to YouTube comments sections.

    A mixed bag of excellent and okay.

  123. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Breeze,

    White Walkers are Others. The show can’t use “Others” because the show Lost already used that term -_-

  124. Joshua Taylor
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Breeze,

    White Walkers= Others.

    They don’t use the term “Others” on the show because LOST beat them to it.

  125. MrKrisoff
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder
    POSTED APRIL 27, 2014 AT 10:51 PM | PERMALINK
    All of this makes me really sad because even if Bran didn’t go to Craster’s and they just kept with his storyline of travel, people would complain.

    Looking back i think even i complained a bit when reading it. Though Brans storyline next to Aryas was my favorite.

  126. KG
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    I hope you’re wrong about that, Edie :)

    (hug)

    You just got a long distance hug from a stranger. Those have great healing properties, I’m told.

  127. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Why is NOBODY talking

    about Arya seemingly stabbing The Hound in the preview for next week? It sounded like it hit his armor but still! WTF?

  128. Brendan
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,
    The fan fiction that you wrote was good except for the Bran scene. That scene was not good, it was a disaster. With all due respect George R. R. Martin is a better writer than you…a much better writer.
    Sincerely,
    A Song of Ice and Fire fan.

    P.s. I truly hope George had a hand in helping you write the final scene and that you didn’t destroy his end game.

  129. RhymesWithWeak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    This is getting crazy yo…great to see on TV….

    Like, we start with Dany and her *free the people* movement…gaining power…

    Then Kings landing is just a soap opera of people focused on themselves…

    …then we get the crazy stuff happening north of the wall that 4/5ths of the world doesn’t even know about…

    …long live King Stannis!

  130. loco73
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Another outstanding episode in what has been a terrific season!!!!! Bryan Cogman is our man and Michelle McLaren are an amazing team and she is quickly becoming one of the most sought after directors , glad we have her with us and glad Bryan Cogman is on our team!!!

    I’m trying to type out this message as I’m laughing and watching “Silicon Valley” !!!!

    I’m a book reader and I don’t mind one bit any of the changes I have seen tonight! As many others have said, to be a book reader and get these bits and pieces that really make me feel that I have not read them and that I’m a newbie at this!!!!

    Fantastic episode, just well done through and through! I think that all these nuggets that we got today will set up future plot points, but I don’t think that this will affect the books or Martin’s writing or the next two books.

    Whatever they’ve done this season, well let it continue!

  131. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Did everyone catch Olenna fiddling with Marg’s necklace, mirroring what she did to Sansa’s necklace? Just as Olenna turned Sansa into an assassin, she’s turned Margaery into the next Queen of Thorns. Props to Michelle Maclaren for that little visual tie in.

    It’s cracking me up that people want to stop watching the show to remain unsullied. There is no way the internet will let anyone go unaware of what’s happening in GoT. Might as well just give in and watch it!

  132. TheMannis
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    If there were indeed spoilers in this episode blame no one but George! Besides that, this was an excellent episode probably one of my favorite of all time!

  133. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Vargo Hoat got mauled by a bear.
    Maybe Locke will got mauled by two direwolves?

    I second that option!

    Let the direwolves roam free!

  134. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    I honestly don’t know how to appropriately respond, so sorry if this is a bit jumbled.

    A slit throat, a beheading, a bit of blood gushing from someone a few times on average in an episode is more disturbing to you than a women being stripped and in hysterics as a man rapes her like some untamed animal? That really says something about our culture.

    I’m not freaking out solely on that fact that there was rape, but about how unnecessary it was. Cersei’s scene wasn’t needed in the show, whether or not the events transpired in the books. And I sure as hell don’t need to watch more nude women being aggressively forced into intercourse on this show.

    It is disturbing. I don’t understand how someone wouldn’t find it so.

  135. Butterbumps
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Did people catch a glimpse of Podrick kneeling and giving Brienne a lift to her horse? No wonder he’s popular with the ladies :)

  136. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Loved this little visual! Really great continuity within the TV show. Just like the Jaime against the pole in Tyrion’s cell.

  137. crabber's son
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    gia,

    After tonight anything can happen….

  138. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Vargo Hoat got mauled by a bear.

    Maybe Locke will got mauled by two direwolves?

    I approve.

  139. TonyGen
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Can Bryan Cogman write every episode please? His episodes are always so strongly written.

    I loved this one, the fact that they were keeping Ghost alive was the only weak spot for me.

    Was in AWE at the ending scene. Loved that the show went there.

  140. MrKrisoff
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    You have all probably talked about it a thousand times…But when the HELL is GRRM supposed to release another damn book.

  141. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Brendan,

    You sir, are a disgrace to fans of both the books and show. You can’t try to discredit a writer by calling his work a “fanfiction” when said fiction has been sanctioned by GRRM himself. If he didn’t approve of how things were being written, I HIGHLY doubt given his large involvement in the show these things would be written. Cogman is a fantastic writer, and to be honest, I think the show deviations from the book make for a FAR more entertaining story than the plodding pace that occurred in the last two books. Love both the books and the show, but I honestly can’t complain about a deviation yet, with the exception of the Jaime/Cersei “rape” scene, that seems to have been a non-issue considering Cersei didn’t even act like she was upset with Jaime over the sex this episode, making it seem as though it were more consensual than it appeared.

  142. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    F*ck em til there dead!!!!!

    Ok I think that the WW don’t make them zombies per se just put them under the influence of the great other. Once someone becomes a red priest they still grow and age right. So maybe it’s something like that with the WW.

  143. Dan
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I can stay clear of spoilers pretty easily. All I would have to do is avoid this site. Other than that I spend my time on economics and philosophy sites while I’m online. I never come across pop culture things online unless I actively search it out.

  144. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I did catch that! I thought it was brilliant. Olenna mirrored the Sansa scene with Marg with the way she first fussed with Margaery’s hair and then the necklace, overlaying with a bit of dialogue about Joffrey’s murder.

  145. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    I find rape just as disgusting as anyone else, and I hope this doesn’t come across wrong. But are we not watching a show based in an ugly world? What about all of the rape mentioned in the book? This world we’re watching is very ugly, for men and for women. It’s sad but it’s just adapting from the books, I don’t think HBO execs are saying, “Mmm. I really love rape. Get as much of it in this season as we can.” I think it’s just showcasing this ugly, ugly world. We’ve really not had all that much rape compared to the books in the show.

    I dunno. Just putting another side in there.

  146. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Didn’t Vargo Hoat have his arms, legs, etc. Removed?

    You’re right. I mixed him up with Amory Lorch.

  147. TheWolfofWinterfell
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    nail in the coffin for coldhands? still wondering who Joseph Gatt is playing if it’s not Coldhands

    Ser Pounce!

  148. TheGreatOther
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader, I don’t understand why other book readers are freaking out about the foreshadowing. All it does is make me want WoW even more. It also makes me think we will be getting the book sooner rather than later if GRRM is going to let something as huge as confirming the Great Other happen in the show.

    I loved it and it’s done nothing but amp me up, getting ready for WoW.

  149. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Disagree. Rape and torture are both more disturbing than killing.

  150. Dan
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    It’s supposed to be disturbing, but so is seeing people brutally tortured and murdered.

  151. Arthur
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Breeze,

    I agree with your view.

    Although many posters state I’m wrong, after I read the books I came away with the impression that:

    White Walkers = Undead Zombies
    The Others = Those magical creatures that carry the children off (to turn them, train and grow them into adult whatever they are) and command the white walkers.

    That’s how I still view it but to each their own.

  152. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird:
    And the fact that Jaime’s rape of Cersei wasn’t addressed makes me furious. She was cold to him as she would be anyway because of her son’s death, but not because she was forcibly dragged to floor and abused by Jaime. What the hell HBO, D&D?

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I respect your concern with regards to the scene but you seem to be driving yourself nuts about it. I think you are projecting your personal ideals onto their 25-year dysfunctional relationship. It helps not to think of Jaime as a “redemptive hero” but more of a conflicted, chaotic character in the midst of personal upheaval. Cersei is losing everything as well. In any case, their relationship is over. There is no warmth left between them, and you can even call it “simmering hate.”

  153. The Watcher
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird:
    The continued amount of violence against women on this show is so disgusting (ie rape, sexualized abuse). The fact that they felt it was necessary to have Craster’s wives nude and so obviously abused by the Night’s Watch mutineers was appalling. The raping of the wives is understandable, but to show it gratuitously on screen and in copious shots is really unsettling.

    And the fact that Jaime’s rape of Cersei wasn’t addressed makes me furious. She was cold to him as she would be anyway because of her son’s death, but not because she was forcibly dragged to floor and abused by Jaime.

    I wholeheartedly agree on the scenes in Craster’s keep. I think it was clear that the NW traitors were going to be terrible to Craster’s wives, but it didn’t need to be shown like that. And then to threaten Meera with rape–it is unnecessary and detracts terribly from what was otherwise a great episode.

    As for the Cersei-Jaime interaction, I am of two minds. It seems consistent with her character to not address the rape directly with Jamie, and perhaps to even deny it herself. It is clear from their interaction that their relationship is damaged beyond repair.

    On the other hand, by not addressing it directly, they are giving fans the opportunity to say “see, it wasn’t rape,” which is deeply frustrating.

  154. Thoros
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    I felt very unsettled anytime Locke showed up. His character had me so nervous. Effing Boltons man

    I cursed loudly at the tv when I saw he was there….He scares me…

    tysnow: 10) Hodor gets seriously injured in the leg. (Could show Hodor be on the way out?)

    That’s what I thought….

    Lex: Did they discuss/acknowledge the rape/not-rape?

    no…if so it was with Cersei’s treating of Jaime…she was a bee.

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Does anyone think Rast is going to turn on Karl and help Jon & co. next episode? He didn’t seem to be very happy there and he looked guilty about the baby.

    No…he’s an evil little balding fat traitor crow. Pyp, Edd, or Grenn will kill him I think…Jon will kill Karl.

    I loved the episode. Very well written. Bryan Cogman just needs to write the rest of the series.

  155. Michel
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    TheWolfofWinterfell,

    Im 99% sure that Gat is the Thenn warg

  156. Dominique Lavigne
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Book reader consensus is:
    Reanimated dead corpses are called wights
    Ice demons are called Others or White Walkers, interchangeably.
    When I first read the novels I was confused and did not understand there were two separate groups. Until I found the internet.

  157. rednillt
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Me too, me too

  158. Cheetos
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    jwal,

    How is Bran a jerk?
    Bran in the show is more mature than Tywin.

  159. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    That’s a really good point! I’m not at all apposed to accurately portraying an ugly, cruel world, on the contrary, I’d love for Martin’s world to be adapted as justly as possible and including those details are sometimes necessary.

    However, certain scenes don’t need to be included and ruin certain aspects of the show for me: ie Ros/whore torture scene, Ros’s sexualized death, Theon’s scene with Ramsay’s girls last season where they’re naked while he’s abused, the rape of Craster’s wives and how they were shown in the background of shots beaten and nude.

    It just perpetuates a part of rape culture that I find hard to swallow. Most of the scenes are not needed, and I just feel like HBO and D&D are feeding into this kinky torture porn viewership (I’m not trying to discredit or shame any sexual practices, those are totally fine, do what makes you happy, but do it safely and comfortably).

  160. Eugene Toussaint
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    since Jojen and Jon Snow might be in the same place, ya think we might get Knight of the Laughing Tree story?

  161. Dave
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Book reader here, and fine with the deviations. Remember, people, this is a show with its own agenda and limitations. We all knew there would be changes, especially around this point in the story. D & D have already done such a great job so far, I doubt they want to screw up what they have worked so hard for. Remember, a few years ago, GoT was the Impossible Dream.

    - Was not expecting LF’s reveal, although I think it makes Sansa’s story that much more interesting.
    - Margaery played Tommen perfectly; Always leave ‘em wanting more.
    - Locke, you sneaky bastard.
    - Surprised the Reeds were so easily captured. I expect them to be a bit more on the ball there.
    - If Hodor gets hurt more, shit will get real.
    - I thought Cersei & Jamie dealt with last week’s scene “Westeros-style.” Might not be politically correct, but I think it’s true to the story.
    - Craster’s women & the Night Watch. I get the feeling they don’t know enough to expect any better from life north of The Wall. The best you can hope for is kharma.
    - Jamie and Brienne’s goodbye. *lump in throat*
    - Ser Pounce vs. The Mountain. I’m calling it now.

    All in all, excellent episode. This season is going to be incredible.

  162. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Agreed for your points here! Do you think HBO should show more naked men or just tone it down with nakedness all together? Just the sexual violence? You’ve voiced your opinion over this passionately and I just want to fully understand your points more.

    I agree with you especially on the fronts of Ros. Poor characters was truly treated like garbage. Violence for the sake of violence. I agree it can all be excessively violent and disrespectful towards women, truly terrible. And while I am for the portrayal of this ugly world, I would be with you on toning it down. We get it, it’s an ugly world. I understand.

  163. Turncloak
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Also, did Jaime seriously have Blount guarding Tommen!? That guy is a scrub!!! No wonder Margaery snuck into Tommen’s room. She probably beat Blounts ass in single combat

  164. LordSnow
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    I thought it was a great episode! As a book reader I thought it was great that I could actually be shocked. I loved it.

  165. loco73
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader I have to say that this show has blown me out of the water since the very first episode! Here we are week after week, year after year coming back to the world marvellously created and imagined by George RR Martin and wonderfully translated for the screen by D&D !!!

    I love, love the books, but I also absolutely love the show! I have never felt at odds with one or the other, or ever felt that one is against another! For me what has been one of the most remarkable aspects of watching this show, is that it has NEVER made me feel like a complacent viewer! Just as the books never made me feel like a complacent reader! And I for one think that that is an amazing achievement for a television show in the face of one who has read the books and by all rights could feel some sort of smug self-satisfaction!

    Tonight’s episode humbled me as a viewer and as a reader and it showed me once again why I enjoy being part of the ASOIF/GoT universe and fandom!!!!!

  166. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    The Watcher,

    Re Jaime/cersei yeah to me the scene clearly did not try to say 100% whether or not the Cersei thought that was rape. However what it did show was that cersei hates Jaime much more now. I think it is pretty clear she felt violated by him, she was so cold to him.

    And conversely Jaime (like in the book) seems totally to not notice/care that what he did was over the line. So…. In character for both of them.

  167. Venger
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    My opinion, but I think A Feast For Crows might’ve been a bit tough to get a good season out of… so change things around a bit, now, to keep it moving at tv/movie type speed when that season comes…?
    Only thing I know for sure is
    that they have my attention.
    Winter is Coming. (possibly sooner than we thought. Lol)

  168. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I do tend to rip my hair out with these things, you’re right. It’s a habit that I’m trying to shake!

    I’m understanding that the scene from last episode was mostly just edited and shot wrong, misinterpreted by showrunners and director alike, which is a pity… Yet, it is what happened and should be plain to anyone who watches, including the people creating these scenes and bringing them to the screen.

    Now, that being said, I just wish we had some closure. Now, I’m not a writer for the show so I obviously couldn’t presume to know what to do, but I felt disappointed that nothing between them changed between the last episode and this new one. Cersei is acting the same as she did in the second episode, being removed and cold towards Jaime. I didn’t see any differentiation and that’s what bothered me for the most part, that the rape (or whatever people consider it as) is not being addressed.

    If you’re going to put Cersei through that then I expect some reaction.

  169. Bread
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    I can’t understand the unbelievable amount of hate Bran’s getting. I’ve seen more people wanting him dead than Joffrey because he’s “boring”?
    His storyline is probably to most interesting and mystic one this season so far.

  170. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Dominique Lavigne,

    I think the show made it clear that there are differences between WWs and the Others. The WWs work for the Others. The wights are just undead slaves. 3 levels of craziness up north (not necessarily bad though).

  171. Old Valyria
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Can’t wait to read westeros.org review on ‘Oathkeeper’, I bet 10000 gold dragons they’ll be losing their shit…

  172. John M W
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    I’m not typically a petty person, but book readers who continually spoiled things for show-only viewers deserved what they got with the final scene tonight.

    Now you know how it feels.

    As for me, I was thrilled with the scene (it left me literally shaking :D). If George is in any way unhappy about stuff like this, he has only himself to blame. I’m thrilled that the show is pushing ahead.

  173. jwal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    I agree. I also understand that war is horrible and people run amok and all, and rape can be prevalent. But the show makes it like 1 in 10 men are either rapists, or will rape if given the chance. Unrealistic. Lazy storytelling.

  174. jwal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    The Watcher,

    how else will they show a guy is really super bad? c’mon that’s not lazy storytelling at all !

  175. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Pretty cool how Bran’s vision in episode 2 had a snippet of tonight’s White Walker approaching the baby! Did anyone else catch that ?

  176. Lady Pouncelot
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only unsullied that just assumed that this was what happened to the babies all along?? What were the alternatives?

  177. cosca
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    jwal,

    Pretty sure there’s more rape in the books though.

  178. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    (I’d just like to say I’m really happy to be discussing this with you and everyone! Rarely can you get a decent, civil conversation on this website anymore so hurray for us!)

    I don’t consider myself a prude in terms of sex on screen. If it has a purpose, hopefully, towards the plot, that’s even better. I’m just not a fan of the vulgar, gratuitous sex scenes the show/D&D favor.

    I have a problem with the sexualized violence, that is definitely something I wish to see turned down (or completely off), especially since 99% of the time it’s towards women. I don’t necessarily have an issue with the nudity as long as it serves a general purpose, although I would like more male nudity on the show. Women’s bodies are flaunted so easily and it’s quite unfair. Bring on the full frontal male nudity in equal measure, please, or don’t include nudity at all.

    And if that makes viewers uncomfortable then maybe they should consider how they feel towards female nudity and consider equal media representation.

  179. Ren Snow
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Deviations from books…

    1) Unsullied freed slaves, and Ser Barristan and Jorah were not commanding them.
    2) Cersei asks Jaime to kill Sansa.
    3) Margery gives Tommen his first unintentional bed ejactulation.
    4) Jon knows about Bran
    5) Locke at the wall and volunteers for…
    6) Nightwatch attack on Craster keep
    7) Bran gets captured by NW mutineers
    8) The Reeds suck, book Reeds would never allow themselves to get caught or even noticed.
    9) Ghost and Summer get captured.
    10) Hodor gets seriously injured in the leg. (Could show Hodor be on the wayout?)
    12) Bran tells mutineers he is a Stark.(of course everything involving Craster’s deviates)
    13) We actually see Kingdom of Always Winter and WW nobility (females?)( I wonder if we will see the beautiful sexy WW Queen that seduces you know who 1000 years ago, because I forgot his name.)

    Well, after tonight episode GoT is officially a loose adaption.

    The “Night’s Queen” doesn’t have a name or even an official nickname

  180. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Lady Pouncelot,

    Plot Twist: The White Walkers are actually just a legion of nannies who care for bastard boys. They are among the most loving creatures in the Known World.

  181. Yureina
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what this problem is people are having. I read all the books, and it’s heavily implied (though not mentioned or seen directly) that the boys that the walkers take from Craster’s Keep are likely turned into walkers themselves. If this was a spoiler or new territory for book readers, then how come both my mom and I (both book readers) understood where that final scene was going? That the reaction we had wasn’t “WTF is this new stuff?” but was “They’re gonna turn that boy into a walker, aren’t they?”

    Good episode though. :)

  182. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    jwal,

    It is extremely lazy storytelling indeed. I have a great level of respect for anyone who can pull of ASOIAF onscreen and realize it is intense to translate, yet to have violently sexualized taunting/teasing/raping is pure lethargy in terms of plot development.

    If the showrunners think they can sexposition their way through the story, then they’re going to have a really tough time of it when characters actually have to be characters!

    It is irritating when we lose screen time to pointless brothel scenes and when characters like Loras are reduced to purely their sex lives.

  183. Fredo
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Exactly. All men must die. It’s an extinction story. And I’m surprised no one is talking about the Bronn scene with Jaime. “Are you going to fight for him now?” Awesome.

  184. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    I think many of the show’s problems would be not solved but… dulled? if they balanced the nudity from each gender. But I agree, have it serve a purpose. I’m rather torn on the whole thing. It is completely unjust how women are treated in a lot of the media around the globe, and treated in general. But for this show I feel it does serve a purpose even though most people probably just get off on it when watching which is disgusting. To each their own. But while HBO does use nudity to draw in viewers I think in ASOIAF it shows the ugliness pretty well, it just happens to be an HBO adaptation. Very torn, like I said.

  185. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    Fredo,

    THIS. Such a great scene. Also I mentioned this earlier but it got lost: What about the preview? Arya stabbing the Hound?!

  186. JamesL
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    garik16|,

    But of course, you needed to showcase:
    1. Additional rape and brutality that wasn’t in the books.
    2. Additional Child Murder, AND MAKING THE WIVES (Innocent and abused in the books) complicit in it.

    Actually the Night’s Watch mutineers raping Craster’s wives is in the books. It happens during the mutiny though it probably would have been best not to include that in the show especially after the controversy over last weeks episode.

  187. Commenter
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Tywin: “I have good news and great news.”
    Tommen: “What.”
    Tywin: “You are King.”
    Tommen: “And..?”
    Tywin: “And you are set to bed Margaery Tyrell in a fortnight.”

    Tommen and Tywin jump and high five. Screenfreeze as their hands meet mid-jump. Credits roll. Everyone lives happily ever after.

  188. beatlefloydzeppelin
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Michel,

    Not really spoilers if you have to question all of that. The theory that the white walkers transformed babies is in the book, so that isn`t really new. And that could have been the leader, or it could have just been another white walker. No Spoilers, just hints and speculation.

  189. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Hell I’m just posting this from the other thread since everyone’s here.

    I gotta just come back with a more collected thought or two and say that the pacing we’re seeing now on a weekly basis is really terrific. There’s been a lot of great stuff on this show as a TV show for four seasons now – but in the early days it just wasn’t as consistent as this. Is it the source material? In part – but very little of this episode comes from what we know of in the books or that was described – the taking of Meereen, and not a hell of a lot else. And again, this week we get no Dragonstone, no Arya/Hound, no Theon/Ramsey, no Wildlings. It seems like they’re going to do this thing where they alternate groups on a weekly basis when they can, and it really works nicely. I wish they’d done that more with Theon last year (even though you can see them maturing in that Second Sons and Rains of Castamere are both strongly focused as episodes in terms of limiting characters).

    It’s good they’re getting better at this – Season 5 will present a lot of challenges on this front.

    Also nice parallels between the opening and the closing. Grey Worm opens it up saying “There was always Unsullied. Before Unsullied there was nothing.” That baby who has been taken into the Land of Always Winter is now always a White Walker. Before a White Walker, he will know nothing.

  190. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Also: This is why you have to love Dorne! Where The rape and murder of women and children is considered dis…tasteful.

  191. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Lady Pouncelot:
    Am I the only unsullied that just assumed that this was what happened to the babies all along?? What were the alternatives?

    Yeah, the dominant theories involved the WWs taking them to their “stronghold”, where they either sacrificed them, ate them or groomed them. This practice has been going on for decades (maybe even centuries) with the current focus on Craster’s Keep in the books. The books never showed where the WWs went though. Now we know that babies are given to the Others and changed into baby WWs (which is funny, imho). Will GRRM comment on it or will he provide more insight?

  192. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    Two sides of a coin, I suppose.

    But I don’t think D&D should treat their audience as dim witted. Obviously the NW haven’t been with women in awhile, they were drooling over Craster’s wives all last season, I think the viewers can fill in the blanks without it being thrust into our faces. Is it for pure shock value? We get plenty of that from the basic plot occurrences.

  193. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    I’m so looking forward to Dorne if it’s included. Arienne and Doran are such great characters. Plus, Sand Snakes! :)

  194. House Nieder
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Definitely agree with this. We’ve been with the show for four years now. Leave some of it to our imaginations. We’ve followed along this far, we’re smart.

  195. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    and more from the other thread:

    –Great Meereen stuff. Nice shading of Grey Worm, love to see Jacob Anderson get some more screentime and to make more of his character. Missandei as well. And then they did well to have them take the city largely through what was off-screen, and then having all those slavers nailed to spikes. Well played.

    –SER POUNCE OMFG I CANNOT.

    –People were wondering if the Cersei/Jaime thing would be addressed. I think it was. Obliquely, yes – but her “Lord Commander” line at the end of that scene was all that was needed to be said. She knows goddamned well what he did. And that works for me. It won’t satisfy everyone, and I get that.

    –I wish they’d left the Joffrey mystery more of a mystery for longer, but the way they played it out worked very well for me.

    –Jeebus, Burn Gorman’s an asshole. And you can’t hurt Hodor!!!! He’s Hodor!!! :( :( :(

    –OMFG WTF IS THAT KING WHITE WALKER DOING HOLY CRAP AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHGHGHGHHHHHHHHH.

    –”Thank you, brothers.”

    –A nice bit of work with Locke there. The more Noah Taylor the better.

    –If we’re not going to have Diana Rigg for a few episodes that’s unfortunate. I’d love to see her get back in the mix later on. But as always we’ll see.

    –”She’s not a killer. Not yet, anyway.” Ooooh.

    –WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT GODDAMNED THING!

  196. mal
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    I find it interesting that when Meera saw the men handling the women she was like “oh shit”. Bran and Jojen were kinda clueless to the dangers. I thought that was a nice touch.

    Tommen! Ghost!

  197. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    So that’s what watching much of Season 5 — and all of Seasons 6 and 7 is going to feel like.

    Not a bad show this Game of Thrones :)

    If Jon lets Bran go — as it appears inevitable now will happen — I am not too sure how I am going to feel about that. I guess the main difference is that Bran in the series appears to be 14 and in the books he’s 8 or 9.

    Perhaps that’s a big enough difference to justify it. Still wrapping my head around it though.

    Not too sure I like the telegraphing of the Choosing, but it’s a sacrifice they wanted to make without having one Wildling attack followed by 3 episodes of siege. I still think GRRM’s pacing was preferable, but – whatever.

  198. soonersfan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,
    how could lost of beat them to the term the others. look in the book for when this was published. lost wasnt even a thouht back then.

  199. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    P.S.: Locke, meet Ghost; Ghost, Locke.

  200. MUGger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Exactly!
    JoffreyTrueKing,

  201. Ser Pounce-a-lot
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    I love the fact that Lord Mormont thought Craster was some sort of necessary evil that helped the Night’s Watch protect the wall but in fact he was doing the opposite, filling the Other’s ranks.

  202. Andy Gavin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    All the best swords have names, and so it is with this episode. This isn’t at first glance a flashy episode full of big events, but it is a pivotal one in which changes set in motion by recent events take clear new turns. As always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  203. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    If you think that this television show goes too far with nudity, violence, or rape, you are living in la la land. The point – yes, there is a point – of these scenes which make you so uncomfortable is to show you what the REAL WORLD is like. I understand that we don’t see a lot of stuff like that on tv or in the movies, but that’s what makes GoT different. It is horrible and it is uncomfortable and it is exactly what goes on all over the world every single day. That’s real life, folks, it’s awful. I’m thankful I’ve been blessed not to be a part of it, but I think Game of Thrones is awesome for tackling what most people choose to be ignorant about.

  204. Mark
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    I’m totally fine with all the changes as long as Jon and Bran don’t meet. That would change the dynamic a lot. I mean, actually not sure. But I’m fine with it. I thought Karl was quite overdramatic, but besides that the change with Locke is pretty cool. I wish Bran and co. didn’t get caught there though. I guess that was the one part I didn’t like. But..

    THE END HOLY FUCKING SHIT. That was an awesome spoiler for everyone. I have so many different thoughts going through my head about white walkers now. Just wow…

  205. axia777
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Craster’s babies become White Walkers. My mind is blown wide open. This has to be book canon now. GRRM had to have approved this. This is amazing! O_O

    Things I Didn’t Like
    More sexual mistreatment- I get that it happens in the GoT world, but I’m bored with it onscreen, especially when it’s for no necessary story purpose. We know that Karl is creepy and dangerous and the mutineers are no good already. We don’t need to belabor the point that way.

    You don’t like it because it is horrible. Well, life is often horrible. The show/books pull no punches. That is why they are so good. Just be glad that they are not doing as much violence and abusive behavior as in the books. That would be ten times as worse.

  206. Brendan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson,

    Adam,
    It was fan fiction. While GRRM is an executive, he writes just one episode per season and recently stated on his blog that he does not recall discussing Jaime’s rape scene with Benioff and Weiss. Clearly he gives autonomy to the showrunners and does not closely oversee every decision they make. He has warned them about the butterfly effect several times and I think they’re foolishly ignoring his warnings, making the show a much weaker story than the books. It’s getting to the point where he is actually apologizing to fans. There was one scene from the entire episode that was from the actual source material.

    I did say it was good fan fiction except for the Bran scene so I wasn’t even that hard on Cogman. I loved every scene with Jaime even though he is now a rapist and his redemption song is a little out of tune right now. Cersei’s non-reference to the rape does not in any way imply that she is not upset with him nor does it change the fact that he did indeed rape her. That scene is only a non-issue if you can erase it from your mind completely.

    I am sad that you feel that I am a “disgrace to fans of both the books and show” because I called tonight’s episode what it is- fan fiction. Only this time, a fan fiction was made into an episode. I hope you learned something here. If you haven’t, go back and read my posts again. If that doesn’t work you’ll simply have to remain clueless.

  207. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Oh my god.

  208. Charles
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    I said it before and i’ll say it again, this show is easily at its worst when it decides to go its own way. By far the worse episode of the season, i don’t even recognize this show anymore sometimes.

  209. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    I came on this website expecting everyone to be outraged. Imagine my surprise at finding that people actually enjoyed this episode! I guess it’s just me but I think i’ll carry on liking game of thrones so long as I erase this and next week’s episodes from my mind completely. Shudder.

    I agree with the person above me who said its fan fiction. Not sure what anyone saw in this at all.

    I’m not a book snob and I dont mind deviations, assuming they are good deviations. The whole episode was weird, unorganized, poorly done, uncomfortable, disturbing, and nonsensical. I cant wait until these two episodes are done with and I hope that Cogman never writes another episode.

  210. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    soonersfan,

    Okay, well this is a TV show and since Lost was a TV show in 2004. . . Well the book’s use becomes secondary when appealing to TV watchers, no?

  211. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    I always love when I hear book fans of any series call an adaptation (or elements of the adaption) “fan fiction”. It’s an adaptation. This is a show called Game of Thrones. It is not the book series A Song of Ice and Fire. Differences from the source material are not any less valid than any other material in the show. It is it’s own thing, and has been from day one.

  212. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    No, “fan fiction” does not come with an official logo, its own line of book covers, coffee mugs, t-shirts and jewellery. Most importantly, fan fiction does not get seen by more people than who will ever read the book.

    You may say “that’s not book canon” and that’s all well and good. Maybe yes, maybe no. But “fan fiction”? Get a grip. That’s not what this is, not even if you really, really, really want it to be.

  213. fire and blood
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    As a book reader,…Best.Episode.Yet…I was blown away

  214. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    To the people saying this is fan fiction: I suppose every other adaptation of any other book ever was also fan fiction, instead of an adaptation for a separate entity and medium? I just don’t understand this logic.

  215. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    The continued amount of violence against women on this show is so disgusting (ie rape, sexualized abuse). The fact that they felt it was necessary to have Craster’s wives nude and so obviously abused by the Night’s Watch mutineers was appalling. The raping of the wives is understandable, but to show it gratuitously on screen and in copious shots is really unsettling.

    I understand the criticism but I disagree with people who act as if the show has upped the ante with this stuff compared to the books. I have yet to watch this episode but it most likely was unnecessary to show the rape but it is also unnecessary for GRRM to fill his books with so much sexual violence yet I rarely see anyone criticize him for it. Books and film are two different mediums and some may want the show to avoid showing this type of stuff because it is more shocking on film and that’s fine but lets not ignore the fact that this type of stuff is rampant throughout the books.

  216. WBB
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    If only all of the petty lords and kings of Westeros saw what we saw at the end. Then they would realize how stupid and irrelevant their little squabble over that horrendously ugly and uncomfortable chair truly is.

  217. Mike
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    I still can’t figure out what else everyone who read the books thought the Others/White Walkers were doing with the babies. There was no spoiler here. That scene at the end was HEAVILY hinted at in the books that have already been published, it just wasn’t explicitly shown.

  218. Dogs
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Dominique Lavigne,

    It was super confusing in the show at first for me because “White Walkers” and “Wights” sound similar if you don’t see them written down to distinguish them – for a long time I thought that they just called White Walkers “Whites” as a shortened form.

  219. sig79
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    I kind of forgot about Ghost before they showed him this episode. I can’t wait to see the reunion between Ghost and Jon if it ever happens. This episode was awesome. Did not expect any of the Others stuff, I wonder where they got the inspiration to add all that in? Really awesome! When Sam and Jon were talking I literally said “What the fuck” out loud when Sam mentioned Bran to Jon, in the books Sam never tells Jon he met Bran at the wall, I wasn’t sure where they were going with it but I can’t wait to see what happens. Jon going beyond the wall again should be interesting… So many things to keep mentioning, this was such a great episode.

  220. mal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    cosca:
    jwal,

    Pretty sure there’s more rape in the books though.

    actually, there’s not. About half as much if not less, so I’m kinda sick of people pointing out that it’s just as much in the book

  221. Maester Victor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Excellent!

    WW! Ser Pounce! QOT & Targ! Grey Worm & MISSANDEI talk Summer Isles & Naath! WHOOP!!!!

  222. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Im not sure what this means but judging by your previous comments I assume that youre offended that Ive suggested that rape and violence occur all over the world every day.

    While I agree with you that there is no need for brothel scenes, I think scenes like those that we saw tonight are something else entirely. Of course theyre not enjoyable to watch. But this is the point.

  223. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    mal,

    It is undoubtedly equal in the books.

  224. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Re-watching the episode. I enjoyed Jon’s speech. Looks like someone is getting ready to lead. Alliser and Janos are shitting in their pants.

    Maybe Summer and Ghost will intervene and not allow Jon to take Bran back to the Wall with him. The ice magic forces know where Bran needs to be.

  225. cosca
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    mal,

    You may want to re-read the books then.

  226. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Haven’t done a reread in awhile, but I’m sure there’s plenty of mentions of rape (such as when Arya’s traveling with the Mountian’s men etc) and I’m not saying it’s not something that happens a lot in the books, but to show it onscreen is an entirely different matter.

    It’s crude and tasteless. The impact could be picked up on from some smart shots rather than entire scenes where characters are abused. The show goes out of its way to portray rapes and sexual violence.

  227. Aiddon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    tysnow:
    Deviations from books…
    13) We actually see Kingdom of Always Winter and WW nobility (females?)( I wonder if we will see the beautiful sexy WW Queen that seduces you know who 1000 years ago, because I forgot his name.)

    Don’t worry, they forgot his name in the books too historically.

    Anyway, the LAST scene is what really got me. That is COMPLETELY new territory, even for me who’s read the books. What does this mean though Though we know this is how the White Walkers add to their numbers, why show it? Is it going to play into later events somehow?

    Another thing is the 13 figures that included the “King” who turned the baby. Are these the leaders? They look VERY different from the Walkers we’ve seen before so I wonder if we’ll see more of them. Still, definitely gives me something to think about

    Other stuff.
    1) Anyone notice that the infamous scene from last episode doesn’t seem to be mentioned at all? I get the feeling it’s gonna be one of those scenes that is gonna be considered a weird quantum state because it comes outta nowhere and is severely weird from a writing perspective.

    2) I hope to the Seven that the mutineers all die humiliating or appropriate deaths. They’re really just disgusting filth that need to be offed quickly.

    3) Noticeable lack of Oberynn

  228. Lord Stannis's Soul
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    The scene with Jaime & Tyrion. Not exactly the one that happens later on in the underground. Does Jaime ask Tyrion again if he killed Joffrey and Tyrion says yes?
    I completely loved the scene where Jaime sends Brienne off. And I totally went squeee when I saw Pod there as “Jaime’s gift” because I apparently forgot about that.
    I am totally okay with the changes where Bran and the Gang wind up at Craster’s Keep, because the book Bran is just lots of boring following after boring following after more boring.
    lockeWhat the heck is up with Locke? I mean, I can totally watch more Noah Taylor. I’m gonna love hating Locke.
    The scene with Margeary and Tommen. Pure creepy. And I had to say to the OLS. “Don’t worry, there’s not going to be any sex. I mean, I hope not…”
    I like how they settled the Littlefinger/Olenna did it. But I’m sorry about all the unsullied who had to go through life with the sullied telling them OMG DIDN’T YOU SEE HOW THEY TOOK THE THING AND DID THE THING AND YOU MISSED THAT MILLISECOND BUT I CAN SPOIL YOU NOW BECAUSE THEY EXPECTED YOU CATCH IT BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. Forgive us, unsullied! we didn’t trust D&D to sort this out.

  229. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    open the flood gates!

  230. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Still disagree with the term fan-fiction and here’s why: Fan-fictions are not AUTHOR sanctioned. This is. He sold the rights. They can do whatever they want with the story, though he has said REPEATEDLY that large changes have to go through him. The Jaime rape scene didn’t because it wasn’t a large change, just poorly edited. This was evidenced by Cersei not addressing it at all this episode, lending further credence to the “she wanted it” theory.

    Once again, your argument is invalid.

  231. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    I think that much is obvious. I didn’t even realize anyone was wondering what happened to the sacrifices, I thought it was implied and understood. For me, the “spoiler” was seeing the Land of Always Winter/WW HQ/WW leaders. I wouldn’t call it a spoiler cause it wasn’t a huge plot point dropping, it was just a fairly large entrance into uncharted territory. I liked it a lot other than the white walker face at the end that looked like a third grader drew it with crayons or they just ran out of money.

  232. Lord Stannis's Soul
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    How many of you thought for just a moment that was Benjen Stark there at the end????

  233. el
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    You’ve seen next week’s episode already?

  234. Sansa Bird
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    I’m aware that horrible atrocities happen everyday regularly, however I don’t need those things flaunted onscreen to grasp a point that doesn’t need to be proven to me in the extremes the showrunners favor.

  235. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    jwal,

    I agree. I also understand that war is horrible and people run amok and all, and rape can be prevalent. But the show makes it like 1 in 10 men are either rapists, or will rape if given the chance. Unrealistic. Lazy storytelling

    .
    Blame GRRM not the show.

  236. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    If you were raped, would you not broach the subject? I sure as hell would. I think it not being mentioned does nothing BUT imply it wasn’t rape by the end. The director of last episode even mentioned that he thought it that it appeared to be consensual by the end of the scene (though to be fair, it kind of didn’t look that way), which shows why they handled it the way they did (by not addressing it) this week. In the show runners’ eyes, Jaime didn’t rape her.

  237. Mario Mjoed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-4/home/34

    the synopsis…. maybe hbo got it wrong, or we got the effing nights king in the story now.

  238. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    The rape scene is far from unmentioned. The “your grace” and “lord commander” make it extremely clear that their relationship is over because of what happened.

    Also.. Sam told Jon that Bran’s alive and Tyrion told Jaime he didn’t kill Joffrey? Hm

  239. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    I’m floored by the fact that many of you think the rape was “forgotten” about this episode. The entire Jaime/Cersei scene this episode was about that. Just because they didn’t come out and talk about it openly, it was obviously in the subtext of the entire scene.

    Especially Cersei’s “So formal.”

    It’s plain to me that the event is being used as the catalyst for the destruction of their relationship (how could it not be?). I’m still not sure how I feel about the decision, but I just can’t see how one can come away from that scene feeling it was “ignored”.

  240. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Really confused to what you’re watching then. There wasn’t anything nonsensical about the episode. It’s putting people in the places they need to be/setting the stage to wrap up some loose ends.

    And you guys REALLY need to learn that something can’t be a fan-fiction if it’s been sanctioned by the author.

  241. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson:
    Brendan,

    If you were raped, would you not broach the subject? I sure as hell would. I think it not being mentioned does nothing BUT imply it wasn’t rape by the end. The director of last episode even mentioned that he thought it that it appeared to be consensual by the end of the scene (though to be fair, it kind of didn’t look that way), which shows why they handled it the way they did (by not addressing it) this week. In the show runners’ eyes, Jaime didn’t rape her.

    Yet, in the Hollywood Reporter interview, Graves plainly says that it was rape.

  242. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Looked to me their relationship was over long before that. As in, the first episode when he tries to have sex with her and she rebuffs him.

  243. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    John M W,

    In another interview, he mentioned that, in his mind, it seemed as though it was consensual by the end. It was even posted on WiC last week.

  244. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    el,

    LOL of course not! Maybe I’ll be surprised but I, personally, am not a fan of the Bran and Jon at Craster’s Keep stuff after watching tonight’s episode and that’s next week’s focus as we’ve seen from tonight and the preview. I’ll just be glad when it’s over is all. Not to mention Arya and the Hound….? Though I’ll wait and see on that one.

    I’ll try to be more optimistic since Cogman didn’t write it, but I thought MacLauren’s (sp sorry) directing was horrendous so that shall be grand.

  245. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    No spoilers please, but how was the episode overall? Best yet? Worst yet? Slow paced and boring? Fast paced and action packed? Just wondering…

  246. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson:
    John M W,

    In another interview, he mentioned that, in his mind, it seemed as though it was consensual by the end. It was even posted on WiC last week.

    Then he has a split personality.

    From Hollywood Reporter Interview:

    Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, “He’s kidnapping her only boy,” because she’s not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like — you read the scene and go, “Wait, who’s directing this?”

  247. Dogs
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    My interpretation of the ending:
    White Walkers are just humans that have been “changed” and then stay alive for long periods of time, gradually becoming more and more ice-like and creature-like.

    I can’t figure out if that last white walker was older or younger than the one carrying the baby. The one on the horse had hair and no horns, but also looked way more haggard. The last one, weirdly, though having horns and having no hair, seemed more human-like, those ripples in the cheeks were less pronounced, and visible vein patterns can be seen in the head.

    Unless it was a completely Other thing. Provocative!

    (Like the night’s king, apparently, according to the Viewer’s Guide synopsis….) Welp.

  248. Shan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson,

    Lol I don’t think you’re understanding that the term fan fiction is not being used seriously here… I understand the legal rights of a television show. It’s a joke. Because the show was the equivalent of fan fiction. Get it?

    I’d love to hear about all the sense that the Bran and Jon storylines make and how their outcomes will change and benefit the storyline!

  249. Daniela
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    The Brown Viper,

    Well, since in the show (S3E10 to be precise) Sam didn´t make that promise to Bran (and Bran did not ask that of Sam), show!Sam is not breaking any vows. In fact, it would have been weird if he hadn´t told Jon.

  250. Asa
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    You guys are aware that’s the Night’s King at the end right? Check the HBO viewer’s guide. LOL. This is fucking awesome.

  251. tdraicer
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    >More sexual mistreatment- I get that it happens in the GoT world, but I’m bored with it onscreen, especially when it’s for no necessary story purpose. We know that Karl is creepy and dangerous and the mutineers are no good already. We don’t need to belabor the point that way.

    You could make the same argument about all the graphic violence on the show, but you don’t. And I disagree: sexual violence is a major part of war (still today) and refusing to turn away from that is not “belaboring the point,” it is showing that it is a central element of mass violence, not something that happens now and then, or comfortably out of sight.

  252. jwal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    actually, there is far less rapes in the book (so I kinda hate when people point this out). There wasn’t a rape in Craster’s Keep depicted, as well as about half a dozen other show scenes. I’m not saying it has to keep with the books, I’m just making my lazy storytelling argument in regards to the show. Put a woman in danger: threaten her with rape. Show a character arc by having a woman overcome something: oh, yeah, rape should do it. How do we know this guy is really a super baddy: have him be a rapist. Case in point: Meera in this episode (wow I didn’t see this coming when they kidnapped them). It shouldn’t just be a throwaway storytelling devise, it should mean something (at least more than it doesn’t)

  253. Daemon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    I really enjoyed that they stayed with the characters as long as they’d be on the episode rather than the quick spurts of some past episodes. Some really well done transitions came out of it too.

  254. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    So you’d honestly rather have bran and Danery’s do nothing for two seasons? God help us if they ACTUALLY literally adapted the books. Would be plodding in seasons 5/6.

  255. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    Anyone?

  256. Robert
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    The white walkers or “others” are identified by Crasters wives on the last page of Samwell chapter 33 of ASoS as the brothers of Gillys baby. It is because of Craster that the white walkers have returned after 1000′s of years.

  257. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    tysnow,

    Yup, your list looks a lot like mine. Although speculation about the upcoming episodes continue to be thoughtful activity, I couldn’t help but sense it would be challenging this season. For me, season four is a game changer… not so much for adapting superfluous detail to the small screen, but the altered plot direction the show runners will take from hereon. Altered from the prior flow of events doesn’t make it a deal breaker for die hard fans, however frustrating it is to perceive the show runners direction for the show. It’s no wonder that only discreet information had been released just weeks before the premiere. I’m still piecing together what links Davos and Tycho Nestoris , and WTF Locke ‘s ultimate result may be for Jon’s story, but hey, I guess I have to keep watching to discover it as any newbie may have to. As a reader, I’m struggling with the end result of these changes. I hope these make sense down the road, for sake of continuity .

    Nice shout out to ser Pounce and the baby that lives in the land of always winter. Welcome back Lysa.

  258. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    John M W,

    Odd. Maybe I was mistaken/misread the post on WiC. I’ll try to find it. At any rate it appears as though you are correct and they are interpreting it as such and will be factored into the storyline for Cersei/Jaime.

  259. Violentos
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    First off, I enjoyed the episode as always. Loved the scenes with Jaime and Brienne, also the scenes with Jamie and Tyrion. But wow! Talk about changing things from the book! I don’t think any other episode was as drastically different from the book as tonight’s episode.

    The “others” village/alter – Never mentioned in the book, but we all sort of knew that the others were turning the babies into themselves. Seemed like filler to me.

    Craster’s keep – Bran and company were never captured at the keep in the books. This was pure Coldhands filler. They made up an entire new sequence of events just to exclude Coldhands. Didn’t really like this scene.

    Jaime giving Brienne armor and Podrick – I actually liked this sequence more than the book! It was a much more heartfelt sendoff, and why not include Pod in the scene now rather than make a scene later just for them to meet up on the road.

    Brienne naming Oathkeeper herself – This I didn’t understand. Why change Jaime naming it for her? It would have been equally heartfelt.

    Sam telling Jon about Bran – This was huge. In the book, Sam promises Bran not to tell Jon and he keeps his promise. Jon goes on thinking that his brother is dead. Kind of kills the moment when Jon and Bran finally meet again… unless (future book spoiler?) they never do meet again.

    Jon leading a ranging to Crasters keep – My least favorite scene of the episode. The wildlings are bearing down upon them from the south, and Jon figures he has time to lead a ranging north? With as little men as they have on the wall? I didn’t buy it.

    And what was up with the “Kill The Masters” written in English on the walls of Meereen? Why wouldn’t it be written in Ghiscari?

  260. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    Is this on? I think I borrowed my mike from Greatjon

  261. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson:
    John M W,

    Odd. Maybe I was mistaken/misread the post on WiC. I’ll try to find it. At any rate it appears as though you are correct and they are interpreting it as such and will be factored into the storyline for Cersei/Jaime.

    I actually don’t think you’re mistaken. I’ve read the bit from the other interview, and I see what you’re talking about. Maybe Graves just tripped up a bit when talking about it. In either case, Dan & Dave clearly intended rape if it was in their script as such.

  262. Lord Stannis's Soul
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I liked it. One of the better ones I think. I think a bunch of people don’t agree with me.

  263. Brendan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    Adam Anderson,

    Adam,
    You’re using faulty logic. Cersei not addressing it does not make it consensual. Not every woman who is raped automatically talks about it. The director himself explicitly called it a rape. Either way, that is last week’s news and I am pretending that scene never happened just like I am pretending the Bran disaster never happened tonight. I called it fan fiction because I was being sarcastic about the extreme liberties taken with the source material. I didn’t mean to get your panties in a bunch. In the future, to appease you, I will only rave about the writing in the show.

  264. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    Go away, Jentario….until you watch it. The comments are all spoilers. But if you must know, all the episode’s scenes were lifted straight from the books. No surprises.

  265. Adam Anderson
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Haha alright man. I really think calling Bran’s scene a disaster is just being dramatic, but to each their own.

  266. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Well, I’m going to leave now

  267. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Lord Stannis’s Soul,

    Jaime’s gift ? You mean the televised version ? the book version has Podrick stalking Brienne for days. He had no where else to go once poor Tyrion was jailed. I suppose this makes the kingslayer an svn more thoughtful guy. Still, not a bad scene overall ( although I didn’t ” squee ” ( :

  268. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I’m kidding…you’re gonna love it, man!

  269. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink
  270. mal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Hi hope HODOR breaks out and kills some Craster Keep assholes

  271. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Can someone show me where in the episode guide it says that that was The Night’s King?

  272. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    bastardly thing to say…… I mean dastardly . Just finished my first watch here in the SF Bay Area ( HD)

  273. Daniela
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Breeze,

    The Wights are the reanimated corpses, basically zombies; they die by fire.
    The White Walkers/Others (they are the same, the first is the name the wildings give them, the second is the westerosi name for them, the show only uses the term White Walker) are the icy creatures with tree bark faces that do the corpse reanimating and can only be killed with dragon glass weapons (so far as we know).
    Also, the show just showed the White Walkers turning one of Craster´s (living) baby boys into a White Walker, it seems.

  274. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    bastardly thing to say…… I mean dastardly . Just finished my first watch here in the SF Bay Area ( HD)

    I’m trying to adjust, WildSeed! This is like electro-shock treatment! Information overload. Need to imbibe!

  275. rfresa
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    So, if the White walkers are priests or agents of the Great Other, who is opposed to the Lord of Light, does that mean there is a whole religion in the far north that worships them/him/it? I mean, Craster can only have been sacrificing his sons for forty years or so, but obviously the ww have been around a lot longer. The way the wives go ‘gift for the gods’ seems like something they have been doing for a long time. Maybe they’re the ones who ‘converted’ Craster to this…religion?

  276. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    PS – I really don’t think Coldhands should be counted out yet.

  277. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Last season people were bitching because several episodes were considered slow with too much filler. Now they add in some action to keep from mid-season being nothing but the NW biding their time before battle and Bran & co. being cold and hungry and people are whining about the story changing.

    That’s really interesting about the Night’s King. I figured the story wouldn’t have been brought up if GRRM didn’t intend to pay it off. It occurred to me while watching the show that the one Walker might be him. Now we know for sure. Interesting. I wonder where it is going.

  278. Chriss
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    Not to be ‘that guy’, but this was… one of the very few bad episodes of Game of Thrones. Like, ever.

    And again… by Brian Cogman.

  279. Phil
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    I don’t care about the possible book spoiler. My guess is GRRM told them about this and gave them the go ahead to put it in the show. Cause really, it can’t be in the books unless he’s gonna do a white walker POV, or some other character gets to the far north and sees it. I think it’s background stuff that he can’t fit in to the novels but would be in the encyclopedia or something.

    My problem is that they are desperate to stretch the material by adding weird stuff like Bran at Crasters and Ghost being captured. It’s just unnecessary filler. And the whole thing with the mutineers at Crasters is really boring. I just don’t care. They’re probably gonna be killed in the next episode anyway. Useless plot because they can’t just have Bran wander for the whole season and Jon has nothing to do til the battle The problem is that in the books characters are left out for large portions or entire books, which is impossible to do on screen, but they could have plotted out the series better.

    My guess is Bran and co will escape in the confusion of the battle next week, without seeing Jon, as I have no idea how that would play out.

  280. Wolfman27
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Arthur:
    Breeze,

    I agree with your view.

    Although many posters state I’m wrong, after I read the books I came away with the impression that:

    White Walkers = Undead Zombies
    The Others = Those magical creatures that carry the children off (to turn them, train and grow them into adult whatever they are) and command the white walkers.

    That’s how I still view it but to each their own.

    Wights= Undead Zombies
    White Walkers = Others = Magical creatures that carry the children off

  281. sbj2k1
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Hodor being harassed like that reminded me of WunWun, I hope it ends in a similar way.

  282. Daniela
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    jwal,

    You answered your own question here. In the show, Bran must be either 11 or 12 by now, so, you know, a teenager.

  283. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Phil,

    GRRM did state once that TWoW would take the reader further north than ever before. Personally, I thought he was going to do a Benjen PoV to accomplish that, but who knows? A prologue/epilogue maybe?

  284. wizardeyes
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    Okay well that was interesting! Its strange how Cogman usually does the closest book to screen adaptions and this one was the biggest departure yet! Remember season 1 when it followed the book exactly!

    I didn’t mind though – I thought this episode was brilliant. Karl and Locke were super creepy. Loved the added stuff about Karl being a contract killer in kings landing. Loved the Jaime/ Brienne scenes annd Jaime/ Tyrion scene. I like how they’re letting Tyrion take a back-seat for now and giving more time to other stuff like the Night’s Watch.

    Jon’s speech appealing for volunteers was cool – did it remind anyone of his speech in his final DWD chapter? This felt like a mini version of that.

    Ser Pounce and Podrick!!!!!

    As for the WW stuff… I don’t even know. Are they going to follow that up at all or was it just a creepy teasery thing?

    Kind of disappointed we didn’t get any Tywin, Oberyn, Roose or Stannis – hopefully next week. And did Olenna say that she’ll be leaving soon?
    Surely she should be there for Margaery and Tommen’s wedding? Will she come back for that or is this her being written out?

    What the fuck is Locke up to?

    Not one of my favourite episode but very interesting and different.

  285. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    How come my comment won’t post??

    Let me try again…

  286. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    Wolfman27: Wights= Undead Zombies
    White Walkers = Others = Magical creatures that carry the children off

    WWs are not Others. WWs work for the Others…pretty clear in the episode that the WWs were the middlemen.

  287. Michael V. Flores
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    The WW/baby scene isn’t a reveal from future books if no POV characters will ever make it that far North and live. GRRM couldn’t have put that in any chapters up to this point. Relax; the books will still have plenty new to say.

    It’ll be okay.

  288. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Isn’t it common knowledge that White Walkers and Others are the same thing, the show just doesn’t use the name Others?

  289. Sword of the Morning
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    The creature you consider to be an “Other” at the end was the Night’s King. The king of the White Walkers. His “horns” were his crown.

    http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-4/home/34

    The show will never, ever refer to them as Others. They are White Walkers. The Night’s King is a White Walker.

  290. Ness
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Totally loving Dany’s story. Seeing her look out over Mereen, listening to the screams of crucified masters, and the Targaryen flag waving in the wind….awesome.

    Loved this whole episode.

  291. Sigurd
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Although the Others taking babies in order to make them into future “Others” is hinted at in the books, the episode makes it perfectly explicit. From my reading of the books the possibilities were:

    1. Babies turn into zombies (albeit this doesn’t make much sense given that baby zombies would be sort of useless)
    2. They eat them for sustenance – not that crazy given how little we know of them
    3. They use them to perform blood magic. I always thought this would be most likely given some of the historical information we have about them and the conflict with the CotF, who have been hinted at as using blood magic.
    4. They make them into new Others, which we now explicitly know is the right answer. I guess this is a form of blood magic, but here the purpose of the magic is made clear.

    Looking forward to future episodes, and most of all, to WoW!

  292. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Robert,

    The white walkers or “others” are identified by Crasters wives on the last page of Samwell chapter 33 of ASoS as the brothers of Gillys baby.It is because of Craster that the white walkers have returned after 1000′s of years.

    It is one thing to say that Craster’s “offerings to the gods” may have made them stronger; it is quite another to blame the return of the Others on a wildling asshole with incest issues.

    Carrying it through to its logical point, if Craster just goes and leaves male babies in the woods, without an Other FIRST there to carry it off, nothing bad happens other than a baby dying from exposure, starvation or depredation.

    It follows that The Others awoke before Craster started leaving his children in the woods. Craster has sins enough without laying the fate of the world on his doorstep.

  293. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    jwal,

    Then there are all the stories you hear about, Gregor raping Elia with her babies brains on his hands, Tywin having Tysha gang raped, the whole “first night” tradition and Roose raping Ramsays mother. Ramsay rapes Lady Hornwood and then locks her away. Ramsay strips woman naked rapes them hunts them down and feeds them to his dogs. I can keep going but I think you get the the idea, GRRM writes some really fucked up stuff. This stuff is everywhere in the books and book fans who only criticize the show for it are hypocrites.

  294. Loox
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    Edit: Lordstarkington just posted my thoughts exactly.

    Crastors Sons is what his daughters called the white walkers when speaking to Sam (book readers: did Sam ever question Gilly about why she calls them “Crasters Sons”? It seems like something he totally would have asked on their long trek back to Castle Black.). Clearly all WW were not humans. If so, then who made the first WW?

    Anyway, we shouldn’t be surprised now when D and D actually show the process in action. It’s not really as spoiler-y as learning there is WW leader, if that’s what we saw.

    Did anyone else notice the episode began with fire and ended with ice? — nice touch.

  295. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    D&D actually said it is because the term ‘Others’ would be too generic for the show and they wanted the audience to have a name for the main enemy rather than a generic branding.

  296. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    Sword of the Morning,

    We need a WW org chart in TWoW. I had the impression there was a significant difference. I hope the Night’s King is Bittersteel just to fuck with Bloodraven.

  297. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Skye,

    George Martin has stated that Whitewalkers are not dead like their wights, they are, quote, ‘inhuman form of life.’

  298. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    you’re correct, Arthur. I just hope that the show doesn’t throw in ” Wights “, as yet another term to confuse folks.

  299. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    like the episode, the three things that do really stand out as sore spots are 1) not killing Ghost, i mean its been two months of just him snarling in that cage, i get keeping it around for a few weeks, but whatever. 2)Jon knows Bran is alive just messes with character development that has so far been more or less consistant with the books. Post slynt-chopping-LC-jon might let Bran go, but i think they just jumped the gun and had jon mentally grow up in the off season. 3)WW’s, so we knew from book 3 that the wives think/say that ‘their brothers’ are coming. In the show not only is this correct but fairylands of always winter (yes its magic, the baby is alive for ages in that cold :P) is just this bleak nothing within with a large altar and WW’s dressed like Tywin with shoulderpads. Would have loved them to end on one of the final shot of the WW and the baby on the horse (overlooking the entrance, much like that shot of Dany last week when she arrives at Mereen)as it leaves the mystery roughly where the books are at that point without going through a scene that just feels like the camera is lingering and your following something without being involved or invested in whats going on for any other reason than more meta-knowledge. It felt more like a bad-guy cutscene from a video game than the scene with Sam at the end of S2 for example. This reveal is huge and grrm has a way he wants us to see it, that’s why we have had a few flashes and hints in the books, but not the main event. This also has to do with no pov in LoAW but that has a reason as well, namely that its more engaging when you are invested in what you are seeing and through whom (or in the tv’s case, with whom)you are seeing. That is 1 of the main reasons that half the boards are bored by Dorne the Iron ilands, and part of Mereen.

  300. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Damn Ser Pounce looks awesome, I feel bad about my cat being a lazy fat kitty now. HBO says the Wight Walker turning the baby was the NIGHTS KING. My mind = Blown, must watch it again that was awesome.

  301. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: WWs are not Others. WWs work for the Others…pretty clear in the episode that the WWs were the middlemen.

    They’re the same thing. Wights are wights, the enthralled corpses of humans touched by the White Walkers/Others. Because of its non-descriptive nature (and to a lesser extent, the potential confusion with the villains from LOST), they are not called “Others.” They are White Walkers. The ones who slept beneath the ice for thousands of years and awoke to terrorize the realms of men with the undead they raised and their packs of ice spiders as large as hounds.

    What’s this I hear of the Night’s King being a White Walker? I was under the impression he was a man who dishonored himself forever by laying with an Other.

  302. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    with regards to where the white walkers are gathered; what happend to “always the artists”?

    also well done cutting a lot of lorefilled catch up or slight reveal moments between lots of diffrent characters i guess

  303. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Sword of the Morning,

    You’re mostly correct. GoT’s Osha, referred to the Wights as ” the Others “. Of course the show was introduced to the term ” White Walkers “, by aunt Nan. Isn’t this fun ! No doubt GRRM’s proofreader had a heyday while proofing the ASOAIF books. ( :

  304. Rillion
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    Wow, so nice to be truly surprised by an episode. I enjoyed the changes they made north of the wall. As for if any of that spoiled the books, well I’ll deal with that in ten years when the last book is finally finished.

  305. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Jon has dropped the term at least once, when petitioning to perform the recon op with the Half-hand. Something to the effect of “I killed a wight.”

  306. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Dastardly, I say. I learned that term just recently, btw. I’m using it until I tire of it ( :

  307. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    jwal,
    No, the mutineers do rape Craster’s Wives in the book. Rape, threats of rape, and stories of rape are everywhere throughout the books. I actually typed a bunch of examples but for some reason by comments are getting deleted and I don’t feel like typing them again. But the point is this stuff is everywhere in the books and book fans who only criticize the show for it are hypocrites.

  308. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    ( : someone somewhere in newbie land is either confounded or laughing their head off.

  309. Luka Nieto
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    The Brown Viper,

    So… you were annoyed by Sam breaking a promise he didn’t make in the show? That was in the books, but not in the show.

  310. Charles M
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Ghost wasn’t captured. He was with Sam when they went to Craster’s. Ghost saved Sam remember? And most likely followed him.

  311. Anthony Dellova
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    The “rape” from last week was addressed, as others have said. To me, it was on the fence leaning ever so slightly towards consensual. Rape is never good but the fact that they are brother and sister is pretty upsetting too, I think some people forget that. Also, that is kind of their courtship style: Jaime can’t really keep it in his pants for her and she doesn’t usually want him to try. With him coming home earlier than in the books and them already kind of “breaking up”, it did come off a but rapy. Obviously, she didn’t like it but I don’t think he liked it either when it was all said and done. The honeymoon is definitely over for those two. But again, while it was an awkward scene it was not even close to the most effed up stuff we’ve seen from those two.

    Also, loved all the Oathkeeper stuff. Didn’t like Bran and co getting captured in such a dumb way. Book Meera doesn’t seem like the type to literally walk into a trap like that. The Reeds seemed a lot more capable in the books.

  312. Bean
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Polish,

    Such a cool episode… until they got to the ridiculous Bran finds Crasters where people eat from skulls nonsense.

    I can understand the fun of introducing Locke as a secret agent, and even forcing Bran to completely unrealistically get caught up in that plot line at Crasters…

    But the skull-drinking, over the top villian crap sucked, as did the ridiculous penning up of giant wolves. They build them a frigging wolf pen? And then didn’t WATER them? As if Wolves can’t eat snow? This whole 15 minutes was some painfully stupid non-sequitors.

    It’s not devistating for the series, but geez when they improvise it’s pretty poorly conceived in the details.

  313. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    TWOW stands for ” the wightest of walkers”

  314. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    WompWomp: They’re the same thing. Wights are wights, the enthralled corpses of humans touched by the White Walkers/Others. Because of its non-descriptive nature (and to a lesser extent, the potential confusion with the villains from LOST), they are not called “Others.” They are White Walkers. The ones who slept beneath the ice and awoke to terrorize the realms of men with the undead they raised and their packs of ice spiders as large as hounds.

    What’s this I hear of the Night’s King being a White Walker? I was under the impression he was a man who dishonored himself forever by laying with an Other.

    Maybe the female Other turned him into one too? If they can turn babies into Others, maybe they can turn adults.

    Another possibility is that the Night’s King we saw was the son of the original Night’s King and the female Other.

    I don’t know why people are passing this scene off as not big and something we already knew. This was such a huge scene. It opened a whole can of worms for me.

  315. Zack
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    Whoever wrote this episode is a mad genius. I love you.

    I felt Unsullied :)

    OMG, Locke at the Wall. Margaery/Tommen! One of the best ever Bran and co. extended scenes. Fucking Burn Gorman drinking wine from the Old Bear’s skull. Pretty awful seeing how the Night’s Watchmen (I guess many of whom were there for murder and rape and the like) could just return to their old ways.

    And then the ending. Holy fuck. I mean…you kind of had to know when they were taking babies, that was what was happening, but actually seeing it. Wow.

    Not a perfect episode, but still…wonderful. I didn’t quite see why they’d kept feeding a locked-up Ghost for weeks or whatever, though. He’s clearly hostile to the mutineers, from growling at Rast. So what’s the upside to keeping him alive?

    I don’t have any other nitpicks at the moment though.

  316. Sword of the Morning
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    What’s great for book readers is that this episode proved that we’ll get much more than the books:

    Like more adventures of Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood. Or Nymeria and her huge pack of wolves. How the Gravedigger got to the Quiet Isle. How Margaery outmaneuvers Cersei. What exactly is in the water at Hardhome.

  317. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Bean,

    Cannot argue a point in disagreement. Let’s hope the stain comes out in the wash….. a few episodes from now. ( :

  318. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    I actually never saw “Lost” so I don’t know of the conflict. I have always thought the Night’s King (another former NW Lord Commander) and his “council” were much more than White Walkers, and that the undead wights were the lowest on the totem pole. We’ll see.

  319. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    As an astute reader mentioned (I nearly forgot this myself…), one of Craster’s wives does warn Sam that Gilly’s baby’s brothers would come after him. This was our first confirmation of a connection between humans and Others, but specifically infant humans. At this point, I believe only infants can be turned into full-fledged Others. Or maybe Craster was rushing the baby deliveries because of demand. We can’t be sure at this time.

    I don’t recall any source suggesting that the Night’s King persisted beyond his time. Is that on the HBO site somewhere?

    While it may be possible for grown humans to be converted, it may not be desirable. Perhaps the Others simply prefer to turn the young, the way people generally like to adopt younger children over older children because they are more psychically pliable at a tender age.

    We do know the Others have emotions, as suggested by their mockery of the three rangers in AGoT. They may look down upon adult humans as vermin and look upon their infants as vessels of potential.

  320. Michael Kehoe
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Everyone knowing Bran is alive really pisses me off. First Sam tells Jon and then Bran gets captured and gives up his name to the idiots at Craster’s keep. Are they that desperate to stretch out the story that they constantly need to make things up out of thin air??? No, that’s not it, it’s just the producer’s taking a big steaming pile all over the books and the fans of the books.

    There is plenty of source material to pull from, but they are hell bent on destroying that source material. Not one single second of the parts involving Jon or Bran from this episode exists in the books.

    But it’s obvious that they are trying to be cheap and avoid things like actually showing a battle when Daenerys takes over Mareen. I also didn’t like how they came right out and told everyone who poisoned Joffrey. Being able to speculate over those sorts of things is one of things that makes the books so great. Sure you THINK you know who did it, but they never flat out confess to it.

    I would have to go back and check, but I am fairly certain the Theon never tells Bolton’s bastard the truth about Bran and Rickon either.

  321. Sword of the Morning
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    Another thought for book readers to ponder: I doubt the showrunners would deviate from canon by having Jon and Bran meet. But if Jon attacks Craster’s Keep, they’d of course run into Bran & Co. So Bran & Co need some other way to escape right before the NW attack. Which points to Coldhands.

  322. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    READ JAMIES CHAPTER AGAIN- the chapter is all from jamie but from the way he describes it he threw himself on her till she relented. Jamie just experienced it differently since all chapters in the books are completely subjective to the character that we are with at the time

    AND WATCH LAST WEEKS SCENE – she gives in (in so far as she begins the kissing

  323. KG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    I think it’s only fair to balance out naked women and men. The poor balance between the two lends the air of objectification.

    Besides. Naked dudes :D

    House Nieder:
    Sansa Bird,

    Agreed for your points here! Do you think HBO should show more naked men or just tone it down with nakedness all together? Just the sexual violence? You’ve voiced your opinion over this passionately and I just want to fully understand your points more.

    I agree with you especially on the fronts of Ros. Poor characters was truly treated like garbage. Violence for the sake of violence. I agree it can all be excessively violent and disrespectful towards women, truly terrible. And while I am for the portrayal of this ugly world, I would be with you on toning it down. We get it, it’s an ugly world. I understand.

  324. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    There’s no debate concerning the place of the wights. They’re certainly on the bottom of the unknown hierarchy. They’re essentially slaves. I say slaves, not zombies, because a good number of wights have been described as having some rudimentary objectives or vestiges of memories, reduced to basic pathfinding abilities and deadly intent.

  325. GeekFurious
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    I don’t know why people are passing this scene off as not big and something we already knew.This was such a huge scene.It opened a whole can of worms for me.

    Yep. Yep yep yep.

  326. Andrew
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    I am so over book purists. They are—obviously not entirely but for the most part—entirely insufferable. Christ, the show is not the exact same as the books. That doesn’t make one better than the other.

    Jesus, some of you people make me sad.

  327. Robert
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    I think cold hands might show up before Jon gets to Crasters and Bran will be gone. Snow will get reunited with Jon and we will be back on track.

  328. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    KG,

    I wouldn’t get much out of it, but I’d have no problem with more dicks. Spartacus was actually better because of its major dongage. After I read some comments following last week’s episode, I have to agree. Why was Oberyn wearing pants in front of Tywin, and in the middle of his four-to-five-way? An interview confirmed that Pascal wouldn’t have shied from some open-air flair.

    Man, this episode was great, even without Oberyn. Props where they are due.

  329. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Michael Kehoe,

    I don’t think there was a battle when Dany took Mereen. I might be wrong since I haven’t read the books in a while but Ser Jorah and Grey Worm went through the sewers with a bunch of guys and took the city from inside.

  330. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Heres a quote someone from westeros posted:

    Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

    “They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

    “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

    Its not really a spoiler because gilly mentions ‘The boys brother’

  331. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    Queenofthorns,

    exactly!

  332. Nick_Scryer
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    Absolutely loved this episode. All the changes were great and I loved the whole WW sequence. Good stuff, its great to be surprised as a book reader.

  333. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    Bean: It’s not devistating for the series, but geez when they improvise it’s pretty poorly conceived in the details.

  334. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce:
    Damn Ser Pounce looks awesome, I feel bad about my cat being a lazy fat kitty now. HBO says the Wight Walker turning the baby was the NIGHTS KING. My mind = Blown, must watch it again that was awesome.

    Link to that?

  335. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Couldn’t agree more. Thank you

  336. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    Kessell,

    I thought the episode was fantastic. I didn’t mind the major changes, but Bran and Friends was handled a little clumsily, as was Karl’s Jeor sippy cup, which looked thin and light around the edges, not to mention unrealistically eggshell jaggy.

  337. Batmahon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Oathkeeper or Oathbreakers?

    Seems like D&D took more than just liberties with GRRM’s tale. The ending scene with maybe “The Great Other” ????and I am still not sure if the babies are wights or white walkers. I am assuming white walkers because idk how wights could age. Additionally, how could the Great Bear ever be okay with this!? It seemed he was fully aware of what Craster was doing, way back, when Jon found out and that certain evils need to be accpeted, but this can’t be accepted by any human, wildling or night’s watch.

    And then with Bran??? It would seem that Jon needs to rescue him, but after that happens you want us to believe that he is just going to let Bran continue his journey with a slow giant and the Reeds??? Especially with both a white walker army and a wildling army out there!? Jon already lost his father, his brother, and presumably his uncle and now he is just going to let his crippled brother follow his dreams? Hopefully, D&D have an answer because I don’t.

    Finally, in the books I liked how Pod followed Brienne to locate tyrion. I don’t really like how he is with her because he has no place to go. But I get it, this was just a minor quibble. I am mainly concerned about the Bran/Jon thing.

    D&D = oathbreakers

  338. Cerseislittlehelper
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Wow I’m so sad I just agreed with you

    axia777,

    I completely agree with you

  339. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor,

    if you have HBO, go to the viewers guide for Oathkeeper, it says at the end of the episode description verbatim A White Walker claims the baby and rides to a city of ice. The child is presented at an altar, where the Night’s King greets the infant and lays a finger on its cheek. The baby’s eyes turn White Walker blue.

  340. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    sweet sweet truth.

  341. Harry
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    I agree with many here: I would prefer to see more of the direwolves Ghost, Summer (even Nymeria as depicted in the books) than another rape and/or brothel scene.

    I mean regarding the first: do they really have to show like EVERY sexual abuse so extensively…

    I didn’t bother the last seasons, but now I always think: OK we get it… it is wartime and this world is cruel. But come on….That precious screentime could be used FAR BETTER!

  342. The Eighth God
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    Daniela:
    jwal,

    You answered your own question here. In the show, Bran must be either 11 or 12 by now, so, you know, a teenager.

    Teenagers are actually aged thirTEEN to nineTEEN, you know, of ‘teen’ age.

  343. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor:
    Heres a quote someone from westeros posted:

    Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

    “They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

    “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

    Its not reallya spoiler because gilly mentions ‘The boys brother’

    True, but these women rarely leave Crasters compound, how would they know anything other than the stories they tell each other. I’m sure one of them may have caught a glance one night after following Craster, and it might be a comforting story for them to tell each other. But how on earth could any of them, including Craster, truly know.

  344. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    300+ comments, damn! Late to the party. Loved the episode. Nothing bothered me in the least. Ser Pounce! That’s all that needs to be said. Oh, and Jaime’s gifts for Brienne definately means he loves her. Must. See. Them. Make. Love! No rape(as if Jaime could).

  345. KG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    I will be stunned if Bran and co. aren’t long gone by the time Jon arrives.

  346. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce! Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you Bryan Cogman, First Of His Name, King Of The Writer’s Room.

    We learned more about the White Walkers in this episode than we have in 5 whole books. I had always suspected that the babies were transformed into White Walkers or were at least used to create more White Walkers. I wonder if this is just show canon and not exactly how it goes down in George’s brain? Either way, I’m fine with it.

    Jaime just gifted Brienne the equivalent of a Dior gown and Tiffany’s jewelry. It means he loves her! Who wouldn’t want to see a sex scene between those two in season 5/6?

    Did they just drop a hint at Sansa killing Littlefinger? “She’s not a killer…yet.”

    Loving Locke at the Wall. But have no clue what will happen in the next episode at Karl’s Keep. I sense another near encounter between Jon and Bran. Hopefully HodorBran kicks some ass.

    The Meereen scenes were fucking awesome. To think people didn’t like the Grey Worm casting choice. I think the actor is hitting a homerun with his portrayal. Oh, also, a huge Targaryen sigil! Loved it! Is that the first time we’ve seen the sigil in the show?

    Really good episode. On par with the first 2 of the season, which were great.

  347. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    Violentos: Jon leading a ranging to Crasters keep – My least favorite scene of the episode. The wildlings are bearing down upon them from the south, and Jon figures he has time to lead a ranging north? With as little men as they have on the wall? I didn’t buy it.

    And what was up with the “Kill The Masters” written in English on the walls of Meereen? Why wouldn’t it be written in Ghiscari?

    sigh the ending made me forget about these silly bits, the ‘oh captain my captain’ bit was tedious. They actually previewd that other language cockup so i was allready over that.

    agree with other people; Nymeria > random nakedness

  348. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Thanks for that! Dam that’s interesting.. its about time the story gets moving forward!

    Kessell,
    Maybe Craster was like ‘hey what ya doin with mah kids’ and they told him haha

    Edit: Does this mean the white walkers age? Would there be kid and toddler and teenage white walkers?

  349. Nathan Cox
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    John Bradly confirmed in an interview that the show doesn’t have CH in the series.

  350. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Did the King of the White Walkers have a crown of ice or were they horns? And did HBO really say that was the Night’s King? Holy fuck balls!

  351. Call Mac
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Martin says to think of WW as Sidhe (Irish elves): “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” Quote and more info from http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others

  352. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Michael Kehoe,

    There is plenty of source material to pull from, but they are hell bent on destroying that source material. Not one single second of the parts involving Jon or Bran from this episode exists in the books.

    But for these characters and Arya there is not much source material at the end of ASOS to pull from. If they went by the book Jon, Bran, and Arya would do nothing all season until the end. They don’t have a choice but to make up some filler plots.

  353. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    Wow! So they did reveal Joffrey’s killer already, and the method. Leave it up to Game of Thrones to give someone an awful, gory death, and then make you feel sorry for the murderer. Dame Diana Rigg, knocking that scene out of the park!

    hehe. “If I have to take one more leisurely stroll this this garden…”

    Not going to complain about changes, because honestly, I am just rolling with it and enjoying the surprises. #notatallangryGOTfan

    Nice shout-outs to the books:

    “Ser Pounce!”

    Poor Tommen, having to sleep in Joffrey’s chamber of horrors, after watching his brother die! That was a nice touch. And now he knows that even his girlfriend can sneak past the Kingsguard. His bodyguards are shaping up to be the Keystone cops of Westeros. It is no wonder the kid has insomnia.

    The other shout-out:

    “Ser…my Lady”

    d’awwwwww. Time for Brienne and Pod’s Most Excellent Adventure.

    With murder. And facial mutilation. And fire zombies.

    I am really enjoying Ellie Kendrick as Meera. She conveys so much with her face, without saying a word. Her anxiety and Hodor getting stabbed in those last scenes just about brought me to tears.

    The Night Watch scene with Edd and Grenn volunteering to go back to Craster’s Keep where they were tortured really did bring me to tears. Yeah, it was cheesy, with the conniving officers and the heroic speech and the music swells and the ominous Locke appearance and all, but dude. If this show kills off any of Jon Snow’s cuddlier brothers in black, I will be more upset than I was about the red wedding.

    The final image of this episode was veeeery interesting. I wonder if this is a canon reveal of the true motivation of the White Walkers. Book readers have not gotten this scene (yet), or a possible character motivation for Grey Worm, so that was pretty cool.

    Finally, the show did a nice job with installing Dany as the ruler of Mereen. On top of the pyramid, the Targaryen banner flying, the city surrounded by a ring of crucified masters. What a powerful image. I wonder what unsullied are thinking of the Dragon Queen now?

    I work in early childhood education, and in the last couple of years, I have seen quite a few little girls named “Daenerys” or “Khaleesi”

    Are their parents now thinking “Uh-oh, where is this going? Did I accidentally name my child after an fictional fascist dictator?”

    Also, if Westeros is going to have a president for life, I vote Margaery (not that votes count)

    Who needs to use beheadings and threats of torture to maintain their iron grip on power, when you can just use cheese platters, charm, and good advice?

    Marg Tyrell for benevolent dictator!

  354. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    Oathkeeper or Oathbreakers?

    Seems like D&D took more than just liberties with GRRM’s tale. The ending scene with maybe “The Great Other” ????and I am still not sure if the babies are wights or white walkers. I am assuming white walkers because idk how wights could age. Additionally, how could the Great Bear ever be okay with this!? It seemed he was fully aware of what Craster was doing, way back, when Jon found out and that certain evils need to be accpeted, but this can’t be accepted by any human, wildling or night’s watch.

    And then with Bran??? It would seem that Jon needs to rescue him, but after that happens you want us to believe that he is just going to let Bran continue his journey with a slow giant and the Reeds??? Especiallywith both a white walker army and a wildling army out there!? Jon already lost his father, his brother, and presumably his uncle and now he is just going to let his crippled brother follow his dreams? Hopefully, D&D have an answer because I don’t.

    Finally, in the books I liked how Pod followed Brienne to locate tyrion. I don’t really like how he is with her because he has no place to go. But I get it, this was just a minor quibble. I am mainly concerned about the Bran/Jon thing.

    D&D = oathbreakers

    Melodramatic much? Time and time again people wring their hands, assuming that D&D are deviating from the story in a huge way. Every time those fears are unfounded. Sometimes different paths lead to the same castle.

    Mormont did know what was going on in the books. It’s in ACOK in Jon’s third chapter I believe.

  355. Nick_Scryer
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    Just want to say it again. I fucking loved this episode.

    And I can’t believe it’s finally happening, unsullied get their revenge because now book readers are getting spoiled.
    The ending has given me so much re-ignited interest in North of the Wall. Night’s King FTW

  356. mal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:26 am | Permalink

    The Eighth God,
    was this really worth a comment?

  357. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:28 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Brendan,

    he’s not saying its consensual. He’s saying that it was ADDRESSED

  358. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    ya srsly.

    I did a double take. Wait a second, is he riding towards the Heart of Winter? Is that what we are seeing?

  359. Daniellica
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    I see all of the treatment of women in this series as a direct reflection on the value of women in this world. Women are property, unless they are (deemed) worthless, in which case many men likely feel they can do whatever they want with them. Which they often do. Even Jamie’s scene last week demonstrated that his desire had more intrinsic value than Cercei’s. That is the world of Westeros (and was for many centuries in our own, and still is in some parts of the world).

    Yes, rape is horribly uncomfortable to watch; it’s disgusting and revolting; shouldn’t it be?
    Wouldn’t it be completely out of character for Meera NOT to be threatened with rape? A clean highborn girl completely at their mercy? Depicting rape as a brutal and horrendous act gives the message that rape is a brutal and horrendous thing. Glossing over it, implying it, is like how rape itself was (and often still is) treated, out of sight out of mind. I’m not saying they have to show rape all the time (which they don’t), but showing rape in a situation where rape would definitely be going on is not lazy or gratuitous–it’s a disturbing depiction of a disturbing scene.

    As I’ve said before, I know it’s extremely difficult to divorce oneself from one’s societal view, but placing the story’s (book or show) contents in the context of one’s own morality or expectations is just going to aggravate everything all over the place. Instead of getting upset about it, perhaps consider the WHY within the story and the world’s own framework…as much as is possible.

    I also notice some fans tend to take some of this stuff really personally–curious!

  360. Lady Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:31 am | Permalink

    I remember reading somewhere that GRRM partially based the White Walkers on the sidhe, the fairy race of ancient Irish folklore. In all the old Irish stories, the sidhe were big on kidnapping humans- especially children- and sprinting them off to the Otherworld (their realm) where the kidnapped person effectively became one of the fairy folk so that last scene warmed my little Irish mythology nerd heart.

  361. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Batmahon,

    It is highly unlikely that Jon will actually see or rescue Bran.

  362. Batmahon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m not questioning whether the Great Bear knew, I am questioning whether what happened in the final scene depicts what happens in ASOIF. So your just saying, in D&D we trust? Because you can’t deny the major questions surrounding the Jon/Bran plot.

  363. Damryn of Dorne
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    White Walker ending…. mind blown.

  364. Ryan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    Amazing Episode!! That ending was very interesting. I wonder if George is giving D&D info for the show or if they are making it up as they go. Can’t wait to see how this plays out.

  365. wizardeyes
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    I think some of the changes were really cool. Having Grey Worm and undercover Unsullied really added to the scene being about an uprising of the repressed as Grey Worm and the Unsullied were ex-slaves themselves.

    And the whole Crasters things gives Jon something to do til episode 9, its added loads of tension and drama to Bran’s storyline and it means we’ll get a cool action sequence next week and more Burn Gorman! No idea what they’re doing with Locke though…

  366. Easteros bunny
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    The majority of people I talked to after tonight’s episode now thinks that Summer and Hodor are now both dead.

    They have to be real careful with the imagery they are using, first the rape scene now Hodor and summer.

  367. Dragon Tender
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    Jake,

    Yeah, I’ve been a big fan of Burn Gorman since Torchwood. When he had a small part in Season 3, I figured there had to be a payoff later. Now we get the payoff.

  368. Batmahon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    How will they get away then?

  369. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:39 am | Permalink

    Call Mac,

    Lady Mormont,

    Nice info guys. Thanks!

  370. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Call Mac:
    Martin says to think of WW as Sidhe (Irish elves): “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”Quote and more info from http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others

    There’s definitely a lot of British and Irish influencing the ice magic part of ASOIAF. Here’s a link for the Wikipedia page on the sidhe if anyone wants a bit of info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD

  371. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman confirmed, in his HBO.com interview, exactly what I took away from the Jaime/Cersei scene tonight:

    The scene with Cersei and Jaime was a challenge. Of course, the undercurrent of the scene is what happened in the sept, even though it’s not explicitly discussed. It ends up being a real blowup as to where each of their loyalties lie, and of course, Tyrion is at center of it.

  372. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    Robert,

    my thoughts as well

  373. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    The complete post-episode-airing interview with the Cogman has been posted.

    One interesting Q&A:
    Reporter: What can you tell us about the final shot of the episode? What is the significance of the sacrificed babies?
    BC: I can’t comment on the last scene.

    And the “difficult” scene to write was at Craster’s Keep. D&D wrote Burn’s (Karl’s) monologue.

  374. jacquesdor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    not sure if already mentioned above, but the kid at Castle Black.. Brutus?.. is blatantly the one who’s going to kill Ygritte right? I already thought it last week when they were showing too much of him focusing on her, particularly after she’d killed his dad. But then he mentioned he was a master archer too.. I’m calling it if no-one did already.

    oh it was actually referenced in the Things I Liked… oopsie!

  375. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    I guess we now know that the kid is gonna kill ygritte too

  376. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:50 am | Permalink

    jacquesdor,

    ohh u just beat me to it hahaha

  377. Lex
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:50 am | Permalink

    Pretty awesome episode, overall.

    Some really good scenes, Jaime/Brienne was great. Sansa was good. And I thought the Littlefinger/QoT stuff was well done.

    The invented Bran stuff didn’t do much for me either way. But it makes sense, as I knew they’d have to invent something for him to do. I did like Burn Gorman as Karl, though, that was pretty good.

    The finale with the White Walkers was… unexpected! Wow, that was kinda crazy! The final shot was so crazy. I’m not quite sure what to make of it all (was that the White Walker king? Was that some kind of castle??).

  378. John M W
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman confirms, in his HBO.com interview, exactly what I took away from the Jaime/Cersei scene tonight.

    The scene with Cersei and Jaime was a challenge. Of course, the undercurrent of the scene is what happened in the sept, even though it’s not explicitly discussed. It ends up being a real blowup as to where each of their loyalties lie, and of course, Tyrion is at center of it.

  379. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I’m not questioning whether the Great Bear knew, I am questioning whether what happened in the final scene depicts what happens in ASOIF. So your just saying, in D&D we trust? Because you can’t deny the major questions surrounding the Jon/Bran plot.

    I don’t if he knew about the WW, the whole time, probably not. He did know Craster was sacrificing his sons to “the gods.” At the very least, he was turning a blind eye to infanticide. By the time a pair of wights attacked Castle Black and rangers started disappearing, he had to have suspected Craster was giving his babies to the Others. He’d have to be pretty stupid to not put two and two together.

    Mormont’s motivation is the same in the books and shows. He’ll associate with someone incredibly immoral because it’s necessary for the preservation of the NW.

    And yes, for the most part I trust D&D. They know a lot more than we do and so far there is no indication they are going to go off course and completely change the story. They’ve kept in everything important.

  380. Dragon Tender
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce-a-lot,

    I’m not convinced that Mormont either in the books or the show really believes that the Others exist, at least until a wight gets a crack at him. For most educated people, the Others are myth.

    So it’s not as if he “knows” the trade-off the Watch has been making with Craster. He knows that Craster exposes human infants, but he also needs Craster’s help fighting off the Wildlings, which he does believe in. That’s a very different trade-off than thinking Craster’s in direct alliance with a tangible and very real enemy.

    This is one of the cool things about the role of magic in the show. It’s rare, and the educated think it doesn’t exist, or at least, doesn’t exist any more.

  381. spacechampion
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:03 am | Permalink

    This is the outfit Lady Olenna wore the night she seduced her sister’s betrothed.

  382. KG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    (Raises hand, and somehow feels vaguely ashamed of her fangirlness)

    Tyrion Pimpslap:

    Jaime just gifted Brienne the equivalent of a Dior gown and Tiffany’s jewelry. It means he loves her! Who wouldn’t want to see a sex scene between those two in season 5/6?

  383. kvothe
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    worst episode ever… so many changes….stupid changes

  384. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    Why do people assume that the finale scene was an actual spoiler from a future book? Just because the show has babies made into white walkers doesn’t mean that is how it works in the books. They may have just made that up for the show.

  385. TJeff
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    So there will be a Jon/Bran reunion, it almost seems a farewell to me, could they end Bran arc in this season or early s5? Hodor was speared in the leg, and Jojen, I don’t know how long they could carry Bran, and to be honest they don’t have much things to do in the books except going north, and provide a convenient POV for GRRM. And Isaac Hempstead-Wright are growing fast, the last episode title is “the children”, this could very well means Bran meets the children of the forest, thus ended his road.

  386. Lex
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Also, liked the Grey Worm stuff (which surprised me), and loved Dany in Meereen with the Targ banner.

  387. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:17 am | Permalink

    Batmahon,
    That’s for David and Dan to figure out.

  388. wizardeyes
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Dany standing in front of the Targaryen banner reminded me of this -

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Bush_mission_accomplished.jpg

  389. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    jacquesdor,

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor,

    Whether or not he will get revenge on Ygritte, it is hard to say.

    I usually don’t think of this show as having so clean-cut of a storyline. It seems almost too neat for Ygritte to be killed that way.

    Heck, maybe the kid will die in a battle with the Wildlings. Who knows?

    You know, the whole “if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention” thing.

    For all of the talk about justice being exacted in this episode, I really feel that the characters will not get the outcome they hope for, or think is right.

  390. Zychotous
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    Crazy episode. So the question now is how much of that ending was D&D’s creation, and how much is book canon? I’m very curious to see if Martin is going to saying anything about it, or if he’s just going to tease and make us wait until the next book.

  391. Greenjones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    The WW thing was heavily alluded to in the books and has been discussed for a very long time, in particular note on the Heresy boards on AFOIAF. In ASOS Craster’s Wives say that the “cold gods” are “the boy’s brothers”. Up until now we didn’t know whether or not to believe the wives but this seems to confirm their view of things.

    I’ll reiterate that this was an excellent episode. Top notch, first class and all the rest. It’s deviations from the text were done so confidently that I really wish that ASOS or ADWD could have had a tad more of Craster’s Keep.

    If you drop by again B. Cogz, you are awesome!

  392. PamJ
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    I’m whining

  393. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    kvothe,

    This is the type of purist I hate. Instead of watching you just kept score, marking every scene that wasn’t in the books. The Craster’s Keep/Jon stuff is there for one purpose, to bide time until the big 9th episode. Sure, they could have built tension and had the battle at Castle Black from the South in episode 5 or 6, but they scripted the two battles to take place in one giant episode 9, and I accept it. And the White Walker stuff was a great surprise. One of my biggest gripes with the books is the lack of the Others’ presence throughout. After 5 books we still knew relatively little about them.

  394. Tom
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    TheWolfofWinterfell,

    He plays the wildling warg for the thenns, he’s been in 2 episodes already

  395. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:28 am | Permalink

    kvothe,

    Kvothe of the Kingkiller Chronicles was an insufferable know-it-all, too. ;)

    ‘mimics Elodin voice’

    Patience, E’lir. The story isn’t over yet.

  396. Greenjones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Exactly. In terms of WW presence, this beautiful tidbit should hold us over for some time. Or rather, until episode ten when fighting with wights (and potentially WWs because of the dragonglass Sam gave Bran and co.) goes down outside of Bloodraven’s den.

  397. Mariya Martell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    WOW, I… I don’t even know what to say… I thought Ser Pounce was going to be the talk of the episode (even outshadowing Oathkeeper by a small margin). Oh boy, was I in for a treat!

    I need some time to collect my thoughts.

  398. The Golden Hand
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:42 am | Permalink

    Dear Bryan Cogman,

    Thank you. Well struck good ser. That is all.

    You literally just cut the $&#% off every single sullied in one swing of the pen. Brilliant. Exciting. Surprising. So this is what that’s like? Seven Hells…

  399. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    OK, too late for me to read all the above comments but I do agree this was a WOW episode! And did anybody else catch Littlefinger’s little “inside joke” about “Grow Strong” (hint hint who his new friends are right?). LOLz. What a clever creeper he is. Cogman rules on these transitional episodes and he proved it again…and Daniel Portman NAILED IT with his “Ser, uh, M’Lady” woot woot Danny! Brienne nearly tearing up had my heart breaking.

    BTW, was that your little Cogman in the baby wrap getting an uncredited cameo? Cute baby. Now about those eyes….?????

    PS…Mr.Cogman, were you in a bad mood when you wrote this episode?

  400. Mariya Martell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:54 am | Permalink

    Aiddon

    3) Noticeable lack of Oberynn

    For a moment there, I though Bronn would finally tell us about his nickname, but it was not to be.

  401. Evi
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    A great episode, one of my favourites, it would have been nearly perfect had they left out the completely unnecessary rape scene. I can’t believe they chose to use so much precious screentime to it. Wtf??

    The rest of it was beautifully written and directed, though. Bryan showed that he gets the characters and understands what’s essential to the story better than D&D. So much foreshadowing! The scenes with Sansa and Littlefinger, Jaime and Tyrion and Jon were great. Jaime and Brienne almost made me cry. Podrick’s reaction to Brienne was hilarious!

    I don’t understand why people complain about the spoilers, they really weren’t that big. We were already pretty sure of what happens to the babies, right?

  402. Kessell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    Mariya Martell,

    also, the Tyrell he crippled doesn’t exist (yet?)

    also also, i want a nymeria&arya wolf dream about as much as Oz wants to see Lysa ^^

  403. Mariya Martell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    By the way, how old is show!Tommen supposed to be? I was sure we were going to see him mount the tent right there and then. Thank you Ser Pounce, for breaking that awkward moment.

  404. Zychotous
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:15 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I was talking more along the lines of the scene itself. Is that scene (or something similar to it) taken from an upcoming book, or a new scene they created to (re)introduce them to the show.

  405. Zychotous
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:26 am | Permalink

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor,

    They edited it. So it was either just a typo, or a really, really bad typo..

  406. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    interesting episode, it had several changes from the book, and none of which i’m sure if they are good or bad moves by the show runners. I welcome a change to Brans storyline to make it a bit more exciting, but it looks like a strong possibility Jon and Bran will meet up next episode, and I’m not sure if that’s a good thing, sure it would be cool to see at least a couple of starks reunited, if only briefly, but i’m unsure if they should keep them apart till the books puts them back together. Still, it might not be that they will see each other, then i’d be fine with the plot change.
    I’d pretty much figured out already that that would be how they took Meereen, so i wasnt suprised when it happened, and i suppose that is just as good as a battle which is offscreen. The bit after was very well done, the 163 crucified masters was a good thing to keep from the books as it shows that when it comes to her enemies dany can be ruthless, which makes her more interesting as a character. The scenes with Jaime in were all good, especially the ones with Brienne, hopefully he will be able to redeem himself a bit given time in the minds of unsullied. Also liked the explanation of who killed joffrey between LF-Sansa scenes then Margaery and Olenna.
    Also, Ser Pounce is in the show!

  407. Dant
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    Really surprised to see what they did to Jon and Bran’s storylines.
    I guess it’s understandable, since they don’t have much to do before the big plot points by the end of this season.
    Seeing Bran getting beat up broke my heart, Isaac’s even more brilliant this episode.

  408. Red Hound
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:39 am | Permalink

    Any chance Bryan Cogman can write all 10 episodes per season? Or ok, 9, GRRM can do the 10th.

    Spectacular episode. I loved how uncertain the ending was, as I just didn’t know what was going on. This season has one moment that, if done right, will have me jiggling like a little girl…but now I’m not sure anymore what else will do this to me!

    If you’re curious about what moment is, it’s ! ! !

  409. Ludo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    I don’t understand why book readers feel that they have been spoiled. Gilly implies in the books that the babies become WW…

    And can you stop with all the rape bullshit ? Of course girls are raped at Craster’s Keep. And the mutineers are going to be punished for sure… Do you really think that it’s a praise of rape ? I think not.

  410. Ram
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:46 am | Permalink

    How come this WW (the one who took the baby from forest) looked just like the one we saw at the end of Season 2 and the one that Sam killed? So they are like clones and all look the same? Identical? However the one we saw in Season 1 looked different….my only complaint…

  411. Dragonsun
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:46 am | Permalink

    I just loved this episode. Best episode of the season imo, and in my personal opinion also the best episode of all the series. And I think episode 5 and others of this season will still top it!
    So Much Snow, very wow, pretty awesome. Bran at Crasters? Awesome. So emotional, poor Hodor, poorer Summer and Ghost – kill them freakin mutineers. I am still worried about Meera with all these rapers around. Jon knowing about Bran? More awesome. Dany in Mereen finally flying the Targaryen flag? Awesome, awesome, awesome. I am worried about Jon and Bran with Locke, even though I know both will survive. And were those the lands of always winter?! First time a book reader was shocked by an ending

  412. armsbendback
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    Loved the episode. loved the tenseness of the final 15 minutes not knowing what would happen.

    Cool with the various reductions and reveals that will be necessary to tell the tale and make it all make sense in just 7-8 seasons. There’s not time to wonder who killed Joffrey for5-6 episodes or even into next season and then spend time revealing it then. Make it clear now and move on with the story.

    A lot of the action and changes in the final 20 minutes took my mind away from the of the great Cogman written scenes in the first half of the episode. He truly gets the essence of the book, characters, and fans and can deliver even in the midst of all the moving parts and changes.

    Really wish Cogman was writing 3-4 eps a season.

  413. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    I thought the slave revolt was rushed and could have been better but after that I thought the episode was mostly good until it got to Craster’s. I don’t mind changes and understand they have to add some filler plots for some characters but I just didn’t like it. It felt off, like I was watching a totally different show. The show struggles when it creates new plots not from the book but I understand they have to. I did not like the white walker ending either, sometimes less is more. I felt the same way about the season 2 ending. The white walkers are scarier when they are more mysterious.

  414. Ludo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    I really enjoyed the fact that Grey Worm was not gambling to ride besides Dany but Missandei. I now understand why he told Daario “you’re not a very smart man”.

  415. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    Evi,

    A great episode, one of my favourites, it would have been nearly perfect had they left out the completely unnecessary rape scene. I can’t believe they chose to use so much precious screentime to it. Wtf??

    I agree that was unnecessary and they should avoid putting that kind of stuff in the show unless it is really necessary because it offends a lot of people. I’m surprised they casually threw that into the episode too because they have usually avoided showing that stuff from the books. But it is disingenuous to say they wasted so much “precious screentime” on it because the point of the scene was not the rape, it was in the background. The scene was reintroducing us to the mutineers and Karl.

  416. Greenjones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    Zychotous,

    It might just be stuff that GrrM confirmed to them but we’ll never get a book POV to confirm. I imagine they made up some of the specifics of what goes down with the WW, but that its based on something GrrM confided in them.

  417. Ours the fury is!
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    I, sullied must say they did fine job this episode.

  418. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:16 am | Permalink

    Zychotous:
    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor,

    They edited it. So it was either just a typo, or a really, really bad typo..

    I wish it was the nights king :(

  419. A wolf named Dire
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    Add me to the list of Book readers who were shocked and thrilled by this episode!!!! Bryan Cogman a job VERY WELL DONE!!!!

  420. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    Just… fucking wow!

    Until those final few moments I was going to call this my 2nd favourite episode so far this season, now I’m bumping it up a space. No Oberyn or Tywin was surprising, but not as much as all these beautiful character moments. Truly Kissed by Fire II: Caressed by Ice. I heard a few theories that the sacrifices don’t become wights but true Others, and it seems we finally got an answer; I can’t wait to see where they take the magical elements next.

    Jaime and Brienne’s scenes together moved me to tears, and the opening scene with Grey Worm and Missandei was equally touching. My only complaints would be Dany’s delivery of “Justice” (which I’d hoped would be fixed in the actual episode).

  421. The Mummers Flagon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    Zack,

    It seemed puzzling, I thought Ghost would be introduced wandering through the trees. However, my logical conclusion suggests that given that they all saw Ghost take on a Wight in Series 3 Episode 1, saving Sam and given that you can presume Ghost followed Sam to Craster’s, I’d suggest that they overpowered Ghost and kept him chained up outside as a potential warning sound / perhaps to scare off Wights (Do Wights feel fear). Also, it’s a Direwolf, maybe lowborn Karl wanted a highborn pet.

    On an additional note, I love how book readers last week lamented the ‘sensible, grown up Tommen,’ but this week swooned when that cat came out!

  422. Ludo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Dark Heart: Ghost

    How did they manage to overcome Ghost you say ? Maybe like they did to overcome Summer ? With a trap ?

  423. Lou Reed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:35 am | Permalink

    Nice to see, that most book readers endorse the way they stray from the books in the north. Something was needed to spice things up a bit, especially with more White Walkers and more action with Bran. Can’t wait to see where this will go with this new Bran arch, but perhaps we will see som Hodor warging soon. Should be awesome.

    And was that the Great Other, or just one of his Arch Demons we saw??

  424. Lou Reed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    Ludo,

    It seems last season, that Ghost were following Mormonts group. They could probably trap him, because he trusted them.

  425. Ozymandias
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    This season is going to dwarf the others.

  426. Koi No Yokan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    A big thank you to both Bryan and Michelle for what is my probably my favourite Game of Thrones episode thus far. Outstanding job on both the source material and invented scenes!

  427. Pentosian
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    The first thing came up to mind when i saw the guy that took the child and get it to the ice circle was this is Coldhands!!! Hoo-ray :)

  428. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    Wow, so much to process. Not a bad episode at all.
    BTW, I didn’t interpret the scene as Jaime agreeing to do Cersei’s bidding. Need to rewatch, of course.

  429. Carne
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    I loved this episode!

  430. jasonrp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    As a book reader first show watcher second, I have to say it was nice not knowing what was going to happen. The WW mystery is driving me nuts though. One thing that’s been bugging me all season is that in the opening credits, it seems like Mereen is part of westeros. My GF thought it looked that way too.

  431. Charles M
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:18 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    Oathkeeper or Oathbreakers?

    Seems like D&D took more than just liberties with GRRM’s tale. The ending scene with maybe “The Great Other” ????and I am still not sure if the babies are wights or white walkers. I am assuming white walkers because idk how wights could age. Additionally, how could the Great Bear ever be okay with this!? It seemed he was fully aware of what Craster was doing, way back, when Jon found out and that certain evils need to be accpeted, but this can’t be accepted by any human, wildling or night’s watch.

    And then with Bran??? It would seem that Jon needs to rescue him, but after that happens you want us to believe that he is just going to let Bran continue his journey with a slow giant and the Reeds??? Especiallywith both a white walker army and a wildling army out there!? Jon already lost his father, his brother, and presumably his uncle and now he is just going to let his crippled brother follow his dreams? Hopefully, D&D have an answer because I don’t.

    Finally, in the books I liked how Pod followed Brienne to locate tyrion. I don’t really like how he is with her because he has no place to go. But I get it, this was just a minor quibble. I am mainly concerned about the Bran/Jon thing.

    D&D = oathbreakers

    That could easily be solved with Locke. Locke will prove to Jon why he needs to let Bran go.

    It makes a lot more sense than Sam not telling Jon about Bran.

  432. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    Loved the episode. I thought Reeds, Summer, AND Ghost being captured a bit unlikely or at least insulting to the Reed’s upbringing. I hope there is dialog later to explain it all. I suspect the aftermath of this will be used to introduce D&D’s solution to depicting Coldhands on screen.

    If you think about it, there really isn’t much material in the books for Bran’s storyline for the next few seasons, even if they go scene for scene from the books.

  433. Unknown
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    Commenter,

    Commenter,

    I thought I was the only person who thought the WW looked like Tywin.

  434. Bill
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:41 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Vargo Hoat was dismembered. And they made him ‘et himself, too.

  435. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Eh, wrong. WW are the bad guys, just as ice is evil because it is symbolic of death and something to be feared. It’s not a story about good vs evil, it’s a story about life and death, hence, ice (death) and fire (life).

  436. Solderai
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    I was curious when i read that “the episode had the book-reading fans wide-eyed” before i watched… so true!! I’m still in shock
    I liked
    - Grey Worm and Missandei. So cute together
    - King’s Landing scenes.
    - GHOST !! i have miss you so much :)
    I didn’t like
    - Once my racional brain took control after seing Ghost i started wonder why they have it in a cage (alive!!), why Grenn doesn’t say anything about it to Jon, em.. it doesn’t make sense.
    - To many people knowing Bran is alive (even Jon) and he is the heir of Winterfell. Are they going to leave him go happily north of the wall?
    -If Margaery doesn’t have anything to do with Joffrey’s murder, how was Olenna able to put the poison in the cup?

    But i really liked the episode, i don’t mind they create new storylines to not having characters walking around. My only worry is being spoiled by the show. I prefer reading the books first.

  437. Macdaley
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I feel this episode was the seasons worst. I understand the story changes. Book lovers can’t have everything. But this really felt like so much of a “filler” episode. I feel like there is so much story to tell that they may not get it all done. Especially if they spend time screwing around with “nothing” episodes. To be fair, there was a ton of setup going on tonight. I guess my excitement for what’s to come is greater than my ability to be patient.

    I watch with my “unsullied” wife. We have differing opinions. She is quite stoked with the development of Danerys story. Myself. I’m a little bored, and worried. I found in the books that her storyline dragged on and on. I’m just hoping they move a bit quicker with it on the show. Otherwise…….they are losing my interest. And does Dany still have dragons? We haven’t seen them for some time.

  438. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen:
    The Bastard,

    Eh, wrong. WW are the bad guys, just as ice is evil because it is symbolic of death and something to be feared. It’s not a story about good vs evil, it’s a story about life and death, hence, ice (death) and fire (life).

    The Targaryans and their Dragons have brought upon a lot of death. Fire isn’t automatically life….

  439. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    Fredo:
    The Bastard,

    Exactly. All men must die. It’s an extinction story. And I’m surprised no one is talking about the Bronn scene with Jaime. “Are you going to fight for him now?” Awesome.

    All men must die, but women we save for later?

    LOVED the Bronn scene! I hope one of his few remaining scenes in the books is retained, the one where he defends his gains.

  440. GG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    I kinda guessed that’s what was happening to the babies so this “non-book” reveal wasn’t really a surprise to me. Is that just me or did anyone else think the same thing?

    Albeit I will say it’s kind of hilarious that a small baby would survive that long exposed to the elements.

  441. Wyck
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    you ppl are FAR too involved in this shit

  442. Edie McDermott
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    So nice of you to respond! I love the books and show and will take great pleasure in them for as long as I can.

  443. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Macdaley,

    But this really felt like so much of a “filler” episode. I feel like there is so much story to tell that they may not get it all done. Especially if they spend time screwing around with “nothing” episodes.

    The problem isn’t that they have too little time to tell the story, it’s that they have too much time. There is not enough story at the end of ASOS to fill 10 episodes so they have to make plots up. I didn’t think this was a filler episode but if you did, how would you pace the season? I don’t see why anyone who read the books would complain about filler because you should know there isn’t a lot of material to work with this season. They can’t rush to all the big events because there would be no material for the end of the season.

  444. Edie McDermott
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    KG,

    KG, more than you will ever know.

  445. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Sansa Bird:
    The Bastard,

    I honestly don’t know how to appropriately respond, so sorry if this is a bit jumbled.

    A slit throat, a beheading, a bit of blood gushing from someone a few times on average in an episode is more disturbing to you than a women being stripped and in hysterics as a man rapes her like some untamed animal? That really says something about our culture.

    I’m not freaking out solely on that fact that there was rape, but about how unnecessary it was. Cersei’s scene wasn’t needed in the show, whether or not the events transpired in the books. And I sure as hell don’t need to watch more nude women being aggressively forced into intercourse on this show.

    It is disturbing. I don’t understand how someone wouldn’t find it so.

    Let me start by saying Rape, Murder, and a bunch of other stuff is all horrible.

    Death is the worst possible outcome for anybody. Even as a society we give the strictest penalties to murderers in the prison system. A person who is murdered can’t come back from that.

    Rape, while still bad, it not as bad as murder.

    Sort of goes with what GRRM has said: “I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”

    Obviously rape isn’t a good act, but his quote still is correct. People get way more bent out of shape over horrific sex crimes and then have no problems with horrific killing crimes.

    What this says about our society is that we still have hang-ups about our sexual identities. And we are completely desensitized to murder.

    EDIT: I am not condoning any of these actions. There are a lot of scenes in this show that are hard to watch. Theon being tortured was horrific. The rape scenes int his episode were disgusting. Dany hurting the masters. Jamie losing a hand.

    This show is brutal. And yet fans don’t blink an eye for most of the death. We as a culture have been desensitized to murder on the screen. We almost cheer it on. When we really should be having the same reaction as how we feel about the Theon or rape scenes. It is all horrific.

    Between GoT and The Walking Dead, it shows we need to keep increasing the gore level to be interested. Not a good direction things are going in.

  446. drew
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    Apparently the White Walker at the end of the episode is the Night’s King

    Google the lore if your not familiar, you’ll wiggle with excitement. I certainly did!

    Source: http://i.imgur.com/G1pdcan.png

  447. Kellie
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    when I go to the link it says a walker, not the Night’s King. weird.

  448. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    Bran & co. going to Craster’s really bothered me, especially the mistreatment of Hodor, Bran and Meera, but I suppose this deviation from the storyline was to give these characters more to do. If Coldhands rescues them before Jon and the Night’s Watch get there I’ll rest more easily. When Margery entered Tommen’s bedroom in the middle of the night my pedo alarm went off big time. But thankfully the only contact was a kiss on the forehead. He did look scared though. For me one pedo in the show is enough (cough, cough, Littlefinger). One thing I enjoyed was seeing the White Walker take the baby and ‘turning him’. I have always complained that there is not enough of them in the books. That was pretty awesome. So we take the good with the bad as far as B&W are concerned.

  449. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    I liked the Bran stuff more on a rewatch though I still think they showed too much with the White Walkers. They should have just ended with it with the White Walker carrying the baby away.

  450. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    GRRM was referring to sex not rape, there is a big difference.

  451. Sami
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    predictions…

    Does anyone else think now that Locke is part of the watch… that he will be the one that will stab Jon? … or even the boy! … as for cold hands, this could still happen?

  452. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    The Bastard,

    GRRM was referring to sex not rape, there is a big difference.

    Yes, he was talking about sex not rape. His point still applies for the rape scenes.

    We see horrific killings on the show and people cheer the scenes. We see horrific rape scenes on the show and people freak out.

    We have become desensitized to killing and death in movies. When our reactions to death scenes should be how people are freaking out over the rape scenes.

  453. mariamb
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    Kellie:
    Ser Pounce,

    when I go to the link it says a walker, not the Night’s King. weird.

    I see “Walker” as well. Perhaps it was changed between now and last night.

  454. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    In all mythology, fire is always, always life. GRRM referenced it himself. ASOIAF is dripping with mythic symbolisms, and fire representing life is a major part of it. Yes fire destroys but life springs from it, like the phoenix, like Dany. Fire is heat against the cold, our human bodies has its own heat and fire, and if that goes out and goes cold, it is because we are dead. You can argue the meanings of many symbols, the moon can be symbolic of male or female, though it is usually female, but with ice and fire? They always represent death for ice and life for fire. It is as old as storytelling itself.

    Ice kills everything, fire renews, this is why farmers often burn their fields in controlled fires. They aren’t doing it because they’re bored lol It’s because it stimulates germination, it’s for renewing and that is why the dragons are there in ASOIAF. Yes, they may burn everything in sight, but life will spring from the ashes. Life doesn’t grow in winter, hence the warning, Winter is Coming….

  455. Joan Català
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    The time has finally come. We are not longer totally Sullied. The big dilemma has arrived sooner than expected, and caught us by surprise:

    “Shall I keep watching and expose myself to future Book Spoilers, or should I wait for the books to come out?”

    As far as I see it, it narrows down to how long am I willing to wait. The answer will come next Sunday night (monday morning for me).

    Regarding this episode I enjoyed it very much. The last scene blew me away, and though I knew I was going to see something new, important, and spoilery, I simply couldn’t turn away. If someone doesn’t want to get spoiled stop watching the show now. No-one forces you to watch, no-one is forcing these spoilers down your throat, so don’t come here afterwards complaining about it. PLEASE!

    It wasn’t until after that I realised that most of the scenes weren’t in the books. Just as long as they keep hitting the important plot twists and characters aren’t too changed I will enjoy it. And if I start not enjoying it I will simply stop watching and won’t burden other people with my complaints.

    And for the extreme book purists: Don’t watch if you’re not prepared to see deviations, no matter how big/small. And just because you’ve invested some time in reading the books doesn’t give you the right to bitch about the changes. The only person who is entitled to do so is GRRM, and he has repeatedly said he loves the show, which he’s an exec producer of.

  456. Tenesmus
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Phil:

    My problem is that they are desperate to stretch the material …It’s just unnecessary filler.

    Ha ha ha ha, don’t you see the irony in that statement? You coudl be saying the same thing about GRRM and the FFC and DWD fiasco.

  457. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen:
    The Bastard,

    In all mythology, fire is always, always life. GRRM referenced it himself. ASOIAF is dripping with mythic symbolisms, and fire representing life is a major part of it. Yes fire destroys but life springs from it, like the phoenix, like Dany. Fire is heat against the cold, our human bodies has its own heat and fire, and if that goes out and goes cold, it is because we are dead. You can argue the meanings of many symbols, the moon can be symbolic of male or female, though it is usually female, but with ice and fire? They always represent death for ice and life for fire. It is as old as storytelling itself.

    Ice kills everything, fire renews, this is why farmers often burn their fields in controlled fires. They aren’t doing it because they’re bored lol It’s because it stimulates germination, it’s for renewing and that is why the dragons are there in ASOIAF. Yes, they may burn everything in sight, but life will spring from the ashes. Life doesn’t grow in winter, hence the warning, Winter is Coming….

    Correct, Fire is always life.

    And the lead character always saves the day. Oops, Ned lost his head.

    And the son of the fallen hero saves the day. Oops, Robb was killed at a wedding.

    GRRM has gone out of his way to take every genre norm and turn it on its head.

    Why would he not do it here? The Starks are connected to the “ice”. The ice will win. Just not in a frozen death sort of way.

  458. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    I understand the point you are making and there is an argument to be made about the hypocrisy in peoples reaction to rape in film opposed to murder but it is disingenuous to use GRRM’s quote to make your point. GRRM was referring to peoples prudishness regarding sex, people who have issues with seeing rape in film has nothing to do with prudishness. It’s mostly do to the fact we haven’t been desensitized to it like murder so it is more shocking to see and unlike murder it is a form of violence almost exclusively directed towards woman so many of them find it more offensive.

  459. David The Grey
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    Jared: Great, great episode. I was on the edge of my seat for the entire hour.

    Me too. I think this was the most scared I’ve been in the entire show!

    I am totally on board with new Tommen now. Excellent choice! (And as others have sais, yay Ser Pounce!)

    Even though there is all the awesomeness, one of my top scenes was with Margaery & Olenna (major props for close-ups again, such wonderful actresses!) and then between Margaery & Tommen in the bed chamber. Margaery is such a skilled player, I’d be her fool anytime (and for sure, unknowingly, she’d have me hoodwinked with out much effort, I’m sure).

    But gosh, those scenes with Bran, Hodor & The Reeds at Craster’s were hard to watch, not knowing what was going to happen. I was sooo hoping Rast was going to get it by the very WW that he was trying to appease. Poor Ghost and Summer!

    And yeah, that finale was amazing too… loved the dead horse, especially. Felt realistic and not over-done (fx-wise). I haven’t read much of the comments yet (but by their sheer number, it seems like everyone is as excited as I am)), so is the baby a wight (my guess) or an actual Other (White Walker)? Seemed to me it would’ve died in the freezing temps way before they took it across the snowy plain to (where? Castle Greyskull?) the ice shrine/altar? Wow! And we are only on Episode 3? So much payoff with this issue (big wheels in motion), yet so much more new ground being laid. Amazing!

    I wasn’t quite sold on Pod & Brienne’s meeting. That was probably the only part where I didn’t quite feel the scene. (But the giving of Oathbreaker and the set of armor scene with Brienne & Jaime gave me all the right amount of goosebumps & heart-string plucking.)

    All in all a great show, totally scared through a good part of it, what a thrill. Looking forward to watching it again tonight (if I get the chance) and maybe even later in the week for a 3rd time. Oh yeah, with all the new stuff, I definitely gotta. So exciting!!!

  460. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Phil,

    My problem is that they are desperate to stretch the material by adding weird stuff like Bran at Crasters and Ghost being captured. It’s just unnecessary filler

    It made be filler but it is not unnecessary. If not for this “filler” these characters would have nothing to do all season until the end.

  461. Serious forreal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    TheWolfofWinterfell,

    Joseph Gatt pretty much has to be Coldhands doesn’t he? Unless they introduce Bloodravenat the end of this season, but that would seem to be very premature and wouldn’t give that storyline much to work with in season 5

  462. Shock Me Sane
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Interesting episode. While the last scene does seem to confirm a likely speculation, I was actually more surprised the baby survived the trip to the land of always winter or wherever they went to.

    Obviously Bran and co. need something to do this season. The mutineers all die either way so it’s not really an important plot deviation.

    I’m surprised more people didn’t comment on what to me were some noticeable changes to Jaimie’s scenes. In the books, he names Oathkeeper when he gives it to Brienne, which I actually prefer. This is totally nitpicky, as I enjoyed the way the show did it as well, but my bf was not happy about it.

    Also, Podrick doesn’t meet up with Brienne until a ways into book 4, and he does it on his own initiative rather than urged by Jaimie.

    My only real concern for the episode is with Tyrion’s arc at this point in the books. His love of Tysha has only been discussed once in Season 1. The reveal about her from Jaimie is pretty crucial to Tyrion’s story going on from the trial, and I’m wondering if the reveal will be sufficient or if they are just going to go in an entirely different direction with Shae essentially emotionally replacing her.

    The latter is seeming increasingly likely. This would almost certainly end with Tywin murdering Shae instead of Tyrion, which is not a change I would be happy about. I know on the show they are doing the sainted version of Tyrion, but that would be a pretty major departure.

    Also, so many Catelyn references. See you at the end of episode 10, Michelle Fairley.

  463. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Then here is another quote from GRRM:

    “And if I’m guilty of having gratuitous sex, then I’m also guilty of having gratuitous violence, and gratuitous feasting, and gratuitous description of clothes, and gratuitous heraldry, because very little of this is necessary to advance the plot. But my philosophy is that plot advancement is not what the experience of reading fiction is about. If all we care about is advancing the plot, why read novels? We can just read Cliffs Notes.

    A novel for me is an immersive experience where I feel as if I have lived it and that I’ve tasted the food and experienced the sex and experienced the terror of battle. So I want all of the detail, all of the sensory things—whether it’s a good experience, or a bad experience, I want to put the reader through it. To that mind, detail is necessary, showing not telling is necessary, and nothing is gratuitous.”

    The level of rape scenes in the show is on par with the level of killing, torture, and many other messed up elements in the show. Not justifying it. Some of it is too much. Fans have no problems with all of the other horrific elements. They have a problem with the sex parts. Fans even complain about too much nudity in the show. It speaks more about the fans comfortableness about sex (good or bad) then it does about what the show is doing. GoT is horrific on so many levels.

  464. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    The Bastard: Correct, Fire is always life.

    And the lead character always saves the day.Oops, Ned lost his head.

    And the son of the fallen hero saves the day.Oops, Robb was killed at a wedding.

    GRRM has gone out of his way to take every genre norm and turn it on its head.

    Why would he not do it here?The Starks are connected to the “ice”.The ice will win.Just not in a frozen death sort of way.

    LOL You’re missing the point based on your own assumptions (which are incorrect) about myth. It is obvious Ned was going to die when you look back on it. Not because of being too good, making the wrong decisions, but because of what he does at the end. He lies and says he plotted to overthrown Joffrey etc etc, he is forced to lie, he gives up his convictions, and the gods never look kindly upon that. (He should have listened to Arya’s mentality of “No, that’s not me” when he said she would marry a lord etc one day. She sticks to her beliefs regardless of whether others think its right or wrong, Ned should have taken note) In real myth, not your impression of gallant heroes winning the day, actual heroes are the ones who are made to suffer the most. It is why Jesus was crucified, why Anakin burned in the fires of Mustafar, why Prometheus is made to suffer eternity (bringing fire aka life to humanity… ;) ) etc The heroes, those of good heart and nature are the ones the gods punish the most, either because of their convictions, or ignoring their own beliefs.

    ASOIAF isn’t GRRM putting spins on anything, he’s just not picking the typical monomyth which has been done to death in books, in TV shows and films, he’s gone back to the original fables, legends and folktales where not everything is happy and nice. The good don’t always win and evil is not always punished. Mythology is about teachings of life, and real stories should do the same, that is what GRRM is doing, and this is why his stories speak to the general public at a subconscious level, it is why it is a phenomenon, it is why Star Wars was also a phenomenon, because George Lucas also played with the myths too, but at a more basic level, but people responded to it all the same. GRRM is a true storyteller, that’s the difference. He’s well read and boy does it show.

    And Ice? Yes, what was Ice used for? Killing people, delivering justice…… It has now been reborn and become Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail… This is the separation and the purification phase. Oathkeeper, perhaps being symbolic of a legendary sword we all know about?…. Don’t know yet, but it has a new life regardless, Ice was burned and is now something else….. From fire springs new life aka Oathkeeper… But the original blade was an omen, ultimately for Ned himself (killed by his own sword because he ignored his beliefs. Doesn’t matter why he did it, but because he did it), but Ice is gone, killed by fire…. ;)

  465. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Serious forreal,

    Joesph Gatt is playing one of the Thenns, he has already had two scenes.

  466. Serious forreal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    no we thought he was going to be styr but they ended up casting someone else in that role, some russian sounding name, i forget who. but they never released gatt’s character’s name so i’m holding onto hope that coldhands gets a run because i’ve been waiting for him since sam fled craster’s

  467. Deborah
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    tysnow,
    I LOL’d at “the Reeds suck”.

  468. B
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    House Nieder,
    In regards to Ghost being a plot hole…
    Or maybe he (Evil Knights watch defector)feels it would be good out in the wilderness with Wilding’s on the loose and Wights to have a warning dog. Something that makes perfect sense to me after what they have seen and been through. No?

  469. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Sadly I can’t add to my last post, but to continue, I found a quote of GRRM:

    “People say I was influenced by Robert Ford’s poem, and of course I was, I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.”

    He gets it, hence why his writing is stellar. Life and death, good and bad, not just people versus people but within ourselves as well. There are no ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ of the main cast, this is true, because there are no ‘all good’ people or ‘all bad’. But when it comes to The Others, that is symbolic, it’s the dark evil of the tale (and also the dark evil of ourselves collective) and the dragons are there at the other end.

  470. OhDanyBoy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Fantastic episode. Don’t know what all the fuss is re: spoilers for the books. It’s been heavily implied and fan theoried for like, a decade, that the WW’s use Craster’s sons as new WW fuel. I wasn’t shocked at all. Awesome ending, but not shocking. I like what they are doing with the Bran storyline too, it needed some filler, and the tension with Jon bringing Locke along who is tasked to kill Bran – good writing.

  471. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Not sure why everyone thinks it’s such a big spoiler to find out the WW are turning human babies into WW. I thought for awhile that would be the logical conclusion of what they’re doing with them. If they just wanted to kill them why not just kill everyone at Crasters and be done with it?
    I thought the episode tonight was overall a strong one. Usually I’m not a big fan of the changes made from the books but felt “Oathkeeper” improved on almost all aspects of the book they changed.
    Show Greyworm is x10 times cooler than book Greyworm. In the show he is probably now my favorite of Dany’s entourage. Show Missandei is better than the book’s version as well.
    Karl and Locke are two created characters the show has down well with, although Karl may be loosely based on a book character. Strange to see lock being genial and befriending Jon. As another poster said when he shows up you feel uneasy.
    King Tommen and Ser Pounce! King T is a lucky little bastard. Getting nighttime visits from Margaery Tyrell in his bedchamber. Reason enough to take the Iron Throne methinks. Also, not sure if I should be alarmed or amused that I felt a pang of loss for Joff after Tommen mentioned him wanting to feed Tommen Ser Pounce’s innards. Ah, that Joff. Little scamp.
    Jaime and Brienne scenes were well done. I knew the parting was coming but still got a bit misty eyed when they were saying their farewells. Good job by Nikolai and Gwendoline wearing their emotions on their faces. Can’t recall getting emotional at their parting in the books.
    Good episode. Not tons of action but the scenes all moved the storylines along where they needed to go. I’d say about an 8/10 as far as GoT episodes go.

  472. Immi
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    OK so I couldn’t read all of these comments AND take them in so I apologise if this has already been said but… Are people really saying that was a huge book spoiler? I thought that was just showing another thing we all kinda figured. I mean that’s not something we could ever seen in the books with the POV format, but where did you think the babies were going? Whatever the WW are up to it always seemed to me that collecting and killing baby boys for the hell of it would be a little pointless, so they must’ve had a use, and this conversion, or whatever you want to call it, I always thought was most likely. And yes now someone said it earlier, I do remember that line about the baby’s brothers coming for him, so now I really don’t understand the big hubbub.

    Oh well, like a lot of you I enjoyed it as well, and all the other changes, you know the reasons by now, good to be surprised, nice to see other characters grow, take different routes etc etc…

  473. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9VgxCUhE5dM confirmation darth maul is the Night’s King

  474. Ludo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Serious forreal,

    Joseph Gatt IS one of the Thenns. He is the skinchanger with the owl in episode 1. He brings the little boy to Styr in episode 3.

  475. B
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Edie,

    I am so sorry man. I am going to hope for the best for you. So sorry.

  476. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    B:
    House Nieder,
    In regards to Ghost being a plot hole…
    Or maybe he (Evil Knights watch defector)feels it would be good out in the wilderness with Wilding’s on the loose and Wights to have a warning dog. Something that makes perfect sense to me after what they have seen and been through. No?

    This was actually immediately what I took from the scene, not to mention Ghost could be unleashed against the wights if there was any warning whatsoever. He’d totally take several down before dropping dead himself.

  477. Strong Belwas
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Serious forreal,

    You’re right Joseph Gatt isn’t playing Styr, but he does play the unnamed Thenn warg with the owl that we have seen very briefly in two episodes already. Struan Rodger has already been cast as Bloodraven for the finale of this season.

  478. Zack
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    The Mummers Flagon,

    That’s actually a really good point.

  479. cindy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Many of you are forgetting something, or perhaps you didn’t know – rape is more about violence and power than it is about sex. Its such a tramatic experience, a life long trauma, for any victim, men or women. To say that its ‘not as bad’ as murder and torture do not know what they are talking about. As for rape being shown on the show – well yes because it shows murder and torture. But there are times for the showing of it – the amount that was happening in crasters keep was very unsettling and hard to watch, and really wasn’t necessary to show the scum that these men are. FWIW

    BTW one thing that has confused me, both in the books and in the show, is how much time has passed. Obviously it hasn’t been four years, for they talk in the show about events that seem like they just happened. How old are the kids now, how much time has passed since Neds beheading? How long have the mutineers been hold up in Crasters Keep (I heard one of the characters say ‘for months’). Does anyone have a sense of this? Its not a major point but time seems to conflate and expand at will in this show (also in the books)

    Finally, a question re Sansa and Littlefinger – how is he able to pull off the disguise of her being Alayne. In the books I really couldn’t buy that a simple dye of hair would pull it off. I’d think the various visitors to the Vale would question this, a lot more than they do in the books. I’ll be curious how they do this in the show.

  480. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    Interesting for you to note that new life came from fire with the forging of “Oathkeeper” from Ice.
    The show/book leaves much to debate about fire and ice in regards to which is “good” and which is “bad”. Which will win out over the other. You scored a point for fire with your speculation.
    However, and I’m not sure if it’s a saying that’s in the show or book or both but, I’m always reminded of a saying that seems to be prominent in the series. Something to the extent of “Fire consumes, but Ice preserves”.
    Either way GRRM has certainly left himself a lot of ways to play out the end game.

  481. dizzy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    To me these were welcome changes from the books. Just the way the show works I think they will all fit together nicely. I like that they are setting up Jon Snow to be a more believable leader before getting elected to Lord Commander. Also I believe that we’ll see some Hodor warging ass kicking going on. And regarding Darth Maul Other … wow just wow. We all kind of figured that some of the Others were Craster’s sons but man I was not expecting that so soon in the show.

  482. GaiusB
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    This was great episode for me. Margery/Tommen and Petyr/Sansa scenes were nicely creepy. All Jaime scenes were good if you do not bother with last episode too much. Dany had nice epic moment with Targaryen flag seen during screams of crucified masters. Best part was suprisingly North, where Jon, Bran, Locke and mutineers stories become one story. A story which carries some unpredictability even for book readers. Only part i did not liked was stuff with WW, it just feel like waste of time to watch some cgi without any human element. But i was always bored with WW so that is nothing new.

    I do not mind all raping, it would be silly and unbeliavable to not have it there. Unlike previous episode it was necessary here. I am bit worried about Meera though, if Jon Snow does not save a day not just next episode, but next day on the show, her being not raped would be bad writing, but if she would be raped, that would make any future great romantic scene with Bran warging into Hodor and making love to her a bit awkward….

  483. TacoErrday
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Filler scenes were added to make up for lack of Coldhands.

    End scene is book speculation confirmation.

  484. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    I’ve criticized Kit’s acting before but he is doing a great job this year.

  485. Matt
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    GTFO! Cogman is a far more faithful writer than D&D with regards to sticking closely to the books, his knowledge of the source material and his adherence to the lore.

    So what if he isn’t GRRM? This episode was amazing, and they did a lot of interesting stuff with it. Just because its different from the books, doesn’t give you the right to insult someone. If it’s such a big problem for you, best you stop watching the show and enjoy the 2 year wait for TWOW… because I’m sure there are more future book spoilers on the way!

  486. chez
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Ser Justin,

    I like the changes, I don’t really like knowing EXACTLY whats coming. These changes help keeep us book readers guessing.

  487. Matt
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    Amazing catch. I read that somewhere else too… I guess when they were writing the HBO Viewers Guide, they added this massive spoiler by mistake, and then VERY quickly changed it.

    Some people might say “Oh it was a typ-o and Darth mOther is not The Nights King” but that is one hell of an error to make!

    Nah, I think someone made a mistake and wrote too much, and was quickly ordered to retract it.

  488. coraxery
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    What’s with all the rape apologists on here?

    If people have a problem with it, it’s not up to you to tell them why they’re wrong.

    I know at least two people that stopped watching the show after the rape in the first season, as is their right.

    And to make some weird straw man argument about…. well, VIOLENCE! is equally ridiculous.

    This season is the first time I’ve worried that this show might devolve into True Blood levels of wonkiness. It’s almost like the show runners want to speed through the last few season’s before they lose their audience.

    Good luck, is all I can say to that.

  489. Drogo's Horse
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    OK, WTF is the effing deal with Sir Pounce?!!? Seriously. People, it’s a cat. Let me say that again. It. Is. A. Cat. Why are people acting like freaking Batman showed up? Who the F cares!

  490. Jakylla
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    First, as a book reader I said myself WTF then I found this episode very fantastic. We already know that the WW have a leader called The Great Other and they take Craster’s sons to increase their army without counting the wights raised up. We didn’t know how until now. The ending was awesome.

    I don’t know what they’re doing with Bran and Jon but I trust D&D. I’m sure they didn’t mess up the show. I just hope that they will not go to far in the spoiler before GRRM release TWOW. I enjoy being suprised but not too much.

    As they said above, now we are Unsullied ;)

  491. Justin James Dixon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Is it just me, or did that under-the-ice-bowl shot of Nights King look a lot like Stannis? Foreshadowing? Overall I thought this was an excellent episode and I loved the ending! I’m enjoying the liberties the show is taking so far, though I just hope Bran and Jon don’t meet.

  492. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    Looking at the episode reviews, a lot of them are upset that the rape was not directly addressed (both book readers and non book readers). Its probably because the scene last week was not intended as such. I just hope D&D don’t find themselves forced to invent a resolution to that rape in season 5 because of all the backlash.

  493. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    “Things I liked: Essos Rising”

    I disagree with you Fury. Dany’s scenes are feeling very repetitive to me and it feels like Emilia Clarke overplays her role with her grandiose way of speaking. I could use less of Essos

  494. Streetad
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Why do people think Mormont knew what Craster was up to? He knew he practiced human sacrifice and was willing to overlook this, sure, but there is never any indication that he knows what happens to the victims or indeed that the Others still exist…

  495. Hollyoak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Drogo’s Horse:
    OK, WTF is the effing deal with Sir Pounce?!!?Seriously.People, it’s a cat.Let me say that again.It. Is. A. Cat.Why are people acting like freaking Batman showed up?Who the F cares!

    This is so hilarious. Ser Pounce! I thought the same thing but wasn’t going to say anything. It’s fun though. Kind of like how fans of the Lord of the Rings wanted to see “the fox” in the first film as Sam and Frodo are leaving the Shire.

    It’s just fun to see a little aside to the fans. That’s the nice thing about Cogman’s writing. He knows how to add a little something-something to excite the fans, even if it is, well, the mention of a frigging cat.

    Won’t it be interesting to hear the commentary on this episode when the DVDs come out!?

    The thing that’s interesting–and James Hibberd just wrote about this–is that Thrones is more like a medieval history saga than a fantasy show. Even though there are dragons and shadow babies, we still kind of nod and say, OK: dragons. But when something as fantastical as the White Walkers show up with a baby, and then some King-looking-Dude pierces the baby’s skin and turns him into a White Toddler, it feels like a different show.

    But that is what I like about the show. It has the effect it should, like WTF? We, the viewers are just as surprised by these fantastical elements as the characters in the show! Now, if you’re watching Wrath of the Titans, where every scene is fantasy your mind adapts to it and you go along for the ride…but with Thrones, it’s a major mind-f**k. Hope that made sense.

    White Toddler was said by a guy on the Game of Thrones Post-Show-Recaps podcast. Gotta give props where due.

  496. Leo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Just how many times exactly was Catelyn Stark referenced?

  497. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Shock Me Sane,

    I actually prefer it this way, with Brienne naming it such. It was like when she called him “Ser Jaime.” Only she is in a position to acknowledge the best of him. The way it was played, we got yet another moment of her affirmation, and they both sold it.

    As for the passing off of Pod, they streamlined that skillfully. His expressions of delight, concern, and embarrassment were priceless. They just ironed out a lot of unnecessary happenstance.

  498. jmrodriguez
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor:
    Heres a quote someone from westeros posted:

    Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

    “They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

    “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

    Its not reallya spoiler because gilly mentions ‘The boys brother’

    This. I always thought that Craster’s sons became “Others”. The hints were somewhat clear in the books, of course keeping the veil of mistery.
    The TV show went full disclosure, probably pulling some scenes from the unpublished books (I don’t think D&D are willing to jump too far from book canon in these matters).
    More shocking to me is the reveal of what’s probably one of the big ones from the far north. :B.

    Nice ep.

  499. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Yea, Emilia hasn’t had good stuff to work with this year, seems like it may be season 2 all over again. It’s a shame too because I think this show is at it’s best when Dany has good material. The whole slave revolt should have had multiple scenes throughout the episode and built to the finale image of her with the Targaryn flag. If they had built to that moment throughout the episode it would have had more of an impact, it was all rushed. The same thing with the finale scene in season 3. It would have been better if they had built to that moment throughout the episode instead of just tacking it on at the end. Also, they need to stop with the Mhysa chants, it comes off really cheesy in the show.

  500. UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I kinda knew someone big was coming in episode 4 if you look at the previous seasons
    Season 1: catelyn arrests tyrion starting the war
    Season 2: birth of a shadow baby
    Season 3: sack of astapor

  501. Batmahon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Charles M,

    Locke will prove to Jon why he needs to let Bran go?! I am not sure that makes any sense.

  502. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Unbowed Unbent UnHodor:
    I guess we now know that the kid is gonna kill ygritte too

    I hope he does. This Ygritte is a vile, evil bitch who deserves death. I won’t shed a tear for her. I’ll be cheering the kid on and planning a parade route.

  503. dizzy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Best line of the night: “Ser…M’lady”

  504. UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    To the editors of the site or whoever is in charge: COULD WE PLS GET A JUMP TO BOTTOM BUTTON. Surely its not that hard to create. Im on my phone and it takes ages to get to the bottom!!!!

  505. Veltigar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Holy fucking shit, by all the Gods and Mads Mikkelsen, that was a good episode. It seems D&D decided to cut CH and use his NK as the “Great Other” on the show. Bold move.

    Only nitpick: Grey Worm from the Summer Islands? Say what? I always thought that the Summer Islanders looked more like Salla and Xaro.

    Oh, no wait another one… Did they cut the Red Lamb, Tumco Lho and Lharaq the Lash? There is no mention of fighting pits… I’ll be genuinely pissed if they decide to cut the Red Lamb. Such a fucking badass.

    A new age has begun. An age of freedom, and all will know, that 300 Spartans gave their last breath to cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron!

  506. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    Charles M,

    Locke will prove to Jon why he needs to let Bran go?! I am not sure that makes any sense.

    Locke is an enemy and Ghost will reveal him as such. His sneaky betrayal will be prevented by one of the Dire Wolves and then we’ll get a real throw down between Locke and Jon Snow. Which will end the same way as it would between Ser Alliser and Jon Snow. With Jon alive and the opponent dead.

    Jon Snow is the classic fantasy hero; his sword is magic, his blood noble, his fate pre-destined. This throw-away villainous character isn’t going to change any of that.

  507. Cinegeek
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    tysnow,

    8) The Reeds suck, book Reeds would never allow themselves to get caught or even noticed.

    THIS!!! I was totally yelling at my tv at that moment. Trapped Direwolves and Jojen and Meera being totally obvious??? NEVER!

  508. Lucho
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Dark Heart,

    I agree. It’s possible that Locke role in the NW is set to link the Bolton storyline with his mission of destroy all the living Starks. I think they should keep him as a Brother in Black until the end of the DWD final scene.

  509. David The Grey
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    David The Grey: (But the giving of Oathbreaker and the set of armor scene with Brienne & Jaime gave me all the right amount of goosebumps & heart-string plucking.)

    Oathkeeper, I meant. Sheesh! Mine fingers betray me!

  510. Red Hound
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    What is your opinion on Theon? He was :

    1) Almost raped by a man.
    2) Physically tortured.
    3) Mentally tortured.
    4) Raped by two women (he clearly said “No” because terrified of Ramsay if he found out)
    5) Castrated.

    Almost nothing was hidden from it, except the 5th point.

    Has any female character suffered anything similar? Or are we going for the route of “women are precious characters, no one cares about men”.

    Overall there have been 1,528 male deaths, 26 female deaths and 207 children killed. The male deaths take up 85% of the deaths in the series where as the females only take up 2% (children take up 13%).

    That’s from the books. The show has, probably, a rather similar %.

    What do you have to say about that?

  511. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    Charles M,

    Locke will prove to Jon why he needs to let Bran go?! I am not sure that makes any sense.

    I suspect he means that Jon may realize that with Locke (assuming his purpose as a Bolton man is revealed) already at the wall Bran wouldn’t be safe anywhere and that he might as well let him go where very few would be willing to follow him.

  512. Varayr Fourskins
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Lots of stuff going on with the Great Other.

    Here’s my take — he’s not the Great Other. He’s a human under a spell set by the Children of the Forest. And he represents Jon Snow from the last historical cycle — the King of Winter — a Night’s Watchman who deserted his post for a White Walker woman (supposedly) and became King Beyond the Wall. He still lives as the King of Winter, and turns humans into Others for the Children.

    But he is not in control. Bloodraven, and more importantly, the Children of the Forest are. It is their spell that turns men into ice creatures to do their bidding. And Bloodraven (and Bran, by extension) — the Children’s generals in their war against humanity — control and communicate with them by way of their abilities.

    In regards to Norse mythology — Bloodraven is Loki — the trickster. Bran is Fenrir — the bound wolf. And the Sons of Craster are the Sons of Muspell, whom Jon Snow — Surtr — will lead into Ragnarök after toppling the Wall with his fiery sword. He’s even carrying a Son of Craster, conveniently, and that will draw the Walkers to him.

    Or, at least, that’s how I see it going down. And this episode did nothing to dissuade me from it.

  513. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Misspelled my screen name in the above comment. It’s Varamyr Fourskins, FYI.

    Edit: It appears my spoiler tags were removed from the 2nd paragraph of my previous post when I tried to edit it. So, sorry about that.

  514. Deno
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    I liked this episode. But I’m not sure about that WW scene. That mountain, green sky, circle and table of ice… It made me feel like all storylines south of The Wall are irrelevant. And I didn’t like look of that WW.
    Though great episode! Loved Dany and Jamie/Brienne scenes.
    I like Bran storyline changes as long as he doesn’t meet with Jon!
    Wonder what George has to say about the Baby/WW scene…

  515. Dark Heart
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Looking at the episode reviews, a lot of them are upset that the rape was not directly addressed (both book readers and non book readers). Its probably because the scene last week was not intended as such. I just hope D&D don’t find themselves forced to invent a resolution to that rape in season 5 because of all the backlash.

    Why would they address it?

    Their scene made perfect sense as an aftermath, she acknowledges him as “Lord Commander”, and gives him the cold shoulder.

    If they were just plain old brother/sister, and it happened, i’m sure she’d have more to say; but considering they are lovers, it makes it more complicated.

  516. Tori Targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Rickard Greyjoy,

    Yes but preservation isn’t a good thing. Preservation is not moving on, not evolving. It is the greed for immortality. “No I will not die, I will live forever”, that is ‘evil’. “All Men Must Die”, those words are to be dreaded, but it is also the meaning of life. “Only death can pay for life” etc. So preservation isn’t the moral of this story, it is about life and death. The one thing each of us need to accept is that one day we will die, no matter what we put in our bodies, whatever we try to do to maintain ourselves it is all a delay of the inevitable. The thing is to let go and accept it. We die, but a child in the world is born somewhere, and that is right. That is the moral of stories for thousands of years, and GRRM is playing with the same themes, and naturally people get confused by the meaning, because many people are confused about life. Some people don’t like aging, they don’t want to accept they are getting older, so they dye their hair, get face lifts etc, they do anything they can to deny the reality which is happening to them. Whereas other people go, ah well, that’s life. And that’s the beauty of GRRM’s work, he reflects every aspect, and that’s what makes it so enjoyable. He doesn’t make it all doom and gloom, he doesn’t go all Disney and lollypops lol Life isn’t one or another, its both.

  517. Batmahon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    But how will that convince him to let Bran continue North.

  518. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    cindy:

    Finally, a question re Sansa and Littlefinger – how is he able to pull off the disguise of her being Alayne. In the books I really couldn’t buy that a simple dye of hair would pull it off. I’d think the various visitors to the Vale would question this, a lot more than they do in the books. I’ll be curious how they do this in the show.

    Of course hair dye would be enough. We really do not have an appreciation for how important photographs are. In a society where there is no photography, no fingerprints or other documents evidencing who you are, you are who you are because others around you vouch for you and say that’s who you are.

    Throughout the 19th century and even into the early 20th century, when photography had become widespread (though not necessarily commonplace), criminals could move and vanish by going on the run to a different city. It happened frequently throughout Canada and America.

    Becoming Alayne was easy for Sansa, (and becoming Arya was easy for Jeyne, for that matter). All they needed was someone to vouch for their new identity and that was it. Too easy.

  519. Ragman's Harbor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    I don’t know why I’ve thought of this, but I would have liked to see people react if the episode would have ended with ”The Bear and the Maiden Fair” by The Hold Steady. Da Fuck? X 100

    - Jon knows about Bran. I’ve never thrown a tantrum because of changes in the show. Dan and David know best….but if Jon and Bran actually meet, man I’ll be bummed.

    - Daenerys at the top of the pyramid with the Targaryen flag in the back was a little scary. Like she could go either way, greatness or madness.

    - Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion , Cersei, Sansa, Tommen, Margeary, Olenna. All great scenes. And correct me if I’m wrong but Olenna was never promised to a Targaryen. Was she?

    - 3 eps out of 4 without Theon. We now know who has to suffer for the other storylines to prosper…fine by me. And Stannis.

    - No Mountain, but Lysa next week. Stoked!

    Overall… 8.5

  520. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Batmahon:
    Steel_Wind,

    But how will that convince him to let Bran continue North.

    Bran is not eight, he’s 13 or 14. Moreover, he’s Lord of Winterfell and the King of Winter and Jon has no right to tell him what to do at all. Indeed, Bran might give an order that Jon’s honour would cause him to have to accept. (Even in the book, the order from an eight-year old King caused Sam to never tell Jon) Jon would let an aged-up Bran go if Bran had a reason to go that Jon would accept.

    The age difference between “book Bran” and “TV series Bran” is the critical element here.

    I might add that if we see Locke make an attempt on Bran’s life, that will also persuade Jon that Bran cannot be kept safe at the Wall. If Locke knew about him and had come to the Wall to kill him, others will follow. A Jon who is not Lord Commander cannot keep him safe – and Jon will know that, too.

  521. Red Hound
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    Answering to myself, I saw that you talked about Theon, but you used “abuse”, not “rape” or “sexual abuse”, while you brought up “sexual” for Ros’ death and that Ramsay’s bitches were naked.

  522. Bard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Things I Didn’t Like

    More sexual mistreatment- I get that it happens in the GoT world, but I’m bored with it onscreen, especially when it’s for no necessary story purpose. We know that Karl is creepy and dangerous and the mutineers are no good already. We don’t need to belabor the point that way.

    Ok, of course I understand why you don’t like scenes like that. But I fully expected them to rape and mistreat the women at Craster’s Keep. What else would they do? Nothing is stopping them, some of them probably have raped women in the past and their oath means nothing to them now.

  523. Ser Tahu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    So the White Walkers are lead by one of the Nazgul? Got it.

    Seriously though, given Bran’s heart of winter vision in the first book, I am almost certain that the final scene draws from future book canon, which in my opinion is a good thing. Hopefully seeing unpublished stuff on screen will really motivate GRRM to write faster. As for the show spoiling the books, in my mind it is no different to reading the books ‘spoiling’ the show and therefore making it less enjoyable – ie it doesn’t. It won’t affect how much I enjoy the books at all.

  524. HappyB
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Let’s face it – Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons are dull. I thought the show would go downhill this season as they try to “respect the books”. I don’t need 2 hours of Brienne wandering around the woods, or 3 hours of Bran slugging through the snow, or 4 hours of Cersei lamenting prophecies from her childhood. Everything so far is a welcome change. I am curious what happens at Craster. Bran and Jon never hook up in the books, so I don’t want them to encounter each other at Crasters. Although, when Jon escapes the wildings, Bran helped him in the book as a warg. I don’t recall that happening, so maybe Bran saves Jon at Crasters and runs along (well, rolls).

  525. Suzaku
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who actually thinks that Coldhands will show up and save Bran before Jon even gets there?

  526. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    John M W:I’m floored by the fact that many of you think the rape was “forgotten” about this episode. The entire Jaime/Cersei scene this episode was about that. Just because they didn’t come out and talk about it openly, it was obviously in the subtext of the entire scene.

    Must say I agree with this. To me her “Lord Commander” kiss-off said it all, and the look on her face, and more drinking. Will D&D maybe retcon it in Season 5 if they don’t otherwise address it given the fan reaction? Perhaps they will. They may need to.

    Phil: Cause really, it can’t be in the books unless he’s gonna do a white walker POV

    A white walker POV would be the most awesome thing ever. “Ice. More Ice…lot of ice today. Hm. Frozen guy. Ok, at least one job today. Feels cold, even for me. More ice.”

    WompWomp:

    WildSeed,

    Jon has dropped the term at least once, when petitioning to perform the recon op with the Half-hand. Something to the effect of “I killed a wight.”

    This is correct. Sam uses the term as well. There are 2 things: The White Walkers, and the wights. The wights are the undead made alive again as zombies. The White Walkers are all the other ones. Of course this one was the first non-bearded dessicated one we’ve seen, which suggests that White Walkers that do not live in the Land of Always Winter or are not there all the time A) do not wear clothes and B) need to shave.

    JamesL: But the point is this stuff is everywhere in the books and book fans who only criticize the show for it are hypocrites.

    I think the use of rape has by now been fully put out there, and it can border at times on unnecessary. By now it’s like, “We get it.” I will say that there’s a shot of one of Craster’s wives looking grim while Karl is speaking that’s certainly quite good in evoking the horror, though.

    WompWomp: As an astute reader mentioned (I nearly forgot this myself…), one of Craster’s wives does warn Sam that Gilly’s baby’s brothers would come after him. This was our first confirmation of a connection between humans and Others, but specifically infant humans. At this point, I believe only infants can be turned into full-fledged Others.

    Right now the only evidence we have of people being turned are either babies (into White Walkers) or dead people (into Wights). Adults? Hard to say. But then again, whenever White Walkers come into contact with living humans (who tend to attack with swords or run like hell), naturally they respond in a confrontational style. Not that I’m sympathizing with White Walkers here. (Well, they aren’t raping anyone.)

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    300+ comments, damn! Late to the party. Loved the episode. Nothing bothered me in the least. Ser Pounce! That’s all that needs to be said. Oh, and Jaime’s gifts for Brienne definately means he loves her. Must. See. Them. Make. Love! No rape(as if Jaime could).

    AMEN! AND ALL HAIL SER POUNCE, KING OF THE ANDALS AND PROTECTOR OF FUZZY BLANKETS!

    Tyrion Pimpslap: To think people didn’t like the Grey Worm casting choice. I think the actor is hitting a homerun with his portrayal.

    And this too, Tyrion Pimpslap. He’s really doing a great job. Do you see a parallel between him and the baby? “Always Unsullied. Before Unsullied, nothing.” Before White Walker, nothing. Then again, White Walkers are pretty much the top of the food chain around these parts.

    Serious forreal: Joseph Gatt pretty much has to be Coldhands doesn’t he? Unless they introduce Bloodravenat the end of this season, but that would seem to be very premature and wouldn’t give that storyline much to work with in season 5

    It’s over. He’s not coming. Let it go.

    Shock Me Sane: My only real concern for the episode is with Tyrion’s arc at this point in the books. His love of Tysha has only been discussed once in Season 1.

    Season 3, Episode 5, Kissed by Fire:
    “It’s time you were married.”
    “I WAS married.”

  527. serum
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    I’m a book reader and I loved the episode! My unsullied friends thought it was great as well! Some even thought it was one of the best episodes they can remember!

  528. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Veltigar,

    Oh, no wait another one… Did they cut the Red Lamb, Tumco Lho and Lharaq the Lash? There is no mention of fighting pits… I’ll be genuinely pissed if they decide to cut the Red Lamb. Such a fucking badass.

    Why would you assume they are cutting any of that, she only been in Meereen for about 2 minutes on the show. I don’t know about those characters but they will definitely not cut out the fighting pits.

  529. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Suzaku: Coldhands will show up and save Bran before Jon eve

    You are. Given the fact that it has been confirmed that Coldhands has not been cast and does not show up this season, I don’t think there is much of a chance of that.

  530. Sami
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    So was that the first glimpse of the lands of always winter?

  531. cosca
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I’m not usually big on the Essos scenes, but this time it really worked for me. I think it’s because a lot of it was followed Grey Worm rather than Dany.

  532. Veltigar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    Veltigar,

    Why would you assume they are cutting any of that, she only been in Meereen for about 2 minutes on the show.I don’t know about those characters but they will definitely not cut out the fighting pits.

    Well, the slaves did put a lot of emphasis on not being able to fight. And there was no one who mentioned that it might be a good idea to free the fighting slaves first.

    Malcolm: I need to speak to Caesar! Together we can cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron

  533. Cielo Snow
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Skye:
    I didn’t realise I was such a purist until now. Most of the changes haven’t bothered me but this episode drove me crazy.I’m dying to know if George told D&D that’s what white walkers do with babies.White walkers are dead right? So if they are turning the babies into white walkers won’t they just have a mess of frozen zombie babies? They won’t grow up if they’re dead.
    IIRC the White Walkers are not dead. They are not human, they are made of ice as GRRM explained in an interview. The humans killed by WW are transformed into wights.
    I was also blown away by this episode by the changes and new info.

  534. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor: To the editors of the site or whoever is in charge: COULD WE PLS GET A JUMP TO BOTTOM BUTTON. Surely its not that hard to create. Im on my phone and it takes ages to get to the bottom!!!!

    THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES OVER.

    Veltigar: Oh, no wait another one…Did they cut the Red Lamb, Tumco Lho and Lharaq the Lash? There is no mention of fighting pits… I’ll be genuinely pissed if they decide to cut the Red Lamb. Such a fucking badass.

    Totally off-base but WTH prediction from me: We will see Strong Belwas in Season 5. Dany will be in Meereen dealing with the consequences of her actions, and we’ll see the pitfighters beg to have their livelihood restored. They introduce Belwas as the strongest and biggest of the pit fighters, and he makes a big speech about it. He then defeats some other poor sap (or hell, 2-3 of them) and then strides to sit next to Dany as her guest of honor…and enjoy a snack of locusts. It would be the perfect way to add the guy in, to represent Meereen’s slaves, keep what was otherwise kind of an odd role in the books and be another one of those nice little nudges to the fans.

  535. Rickard Greyjoy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    Nice, I had not thought of preservation like that. However if preservation and therefore ice is considered “bad” is Dany’s comment “All Men Must Die, but we are not men” learn towards the “Ice” side of things in that it seeks preservation? One would assume Dany would be on the fire side of things what with fire and dragons and such. Or is this just more of the “everyone has good/bad (ice/fire) theme that runs through the series? Just goes to show almost any theory one has in regards to ASOIAF there is another that can contradict it.
    I was thinking of preservation as a good thing not so much because it would preserve any particular character or even humanity but the preservation of life in general.
    If Dany maybe leans towards madness and decides to toast the planet with her dragons might not Ice and preservation then be a good thing? In a fiery cataclysm one would think that something or somewhere cold enough to ensure that life continues would ultimately be good.
    In similar fashion, how can we be sure that the White Walkers even can’t ultimately be perceived as good? We pretty much know they just want to kill human kind but what if it is humankind that we are ultimately supposed to view as evil with all of the war, death, famine, rape etc? The White Walkers may be just a purge that happens every so often to restore the balance. If fire is running out of control with a Mad Dany and dragons/fire combined with more people turning from the Old Gods and the Seven to R’hollor than maybe the WW and therefore Ice might not turn out to be such a bad thing in the big picture.

  536. The Baby Beyond the Wall
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Polish,

    What do you mean it was LOTR-esque BUT awesome? Calling it LOTR-esque is a serious compliment without the qualifier.

  537. The Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    coraxery:
    What’s with all the rape apologists on here?

    If people have a problem with it, it’s not up to you to tell them why they’re wrong.

    I know at least two people that stopped watching the show after the rape in the first season, as is their right.

    And to make some weird straw man argument about…. well, VIOLENCE! is equally ridiculous.

    This season is the first time I’ve worried that this show might devolve into True Blood levels of wonkiness. It’s almost like the show runners want to speed through the last few season’s before they lose their audience.

    Good luck, is all I can say to that.

    I don’t think there are any rape apologists.

    It just seems silly to watch a show that has murder, incest, rape, torture, mutilation, burning people alive, throwing kids from a building, and a host of other horrific events…. and people get upset only about the sex related items.

    This is a sick show. To only be disturbed by on thing is sort of goofy.

  538. BlackTalon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Too true. Imagine the outcry if the show had shown Joffrey slitting open a pregnant cat … not even the radfems would have been heard over the outrage of the PETA folk.

  539. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Deno:
    It made me feel like all storylines south of The Wall are irrelevant.

    That’s because all those threads are nothing but one huge “mummer’s show” used by GRRM to keep both the characters and the readers (and now the TV viewers) distracted and unprepared for the real conflict at the heart of the story.

    In the end, it won’t be the Game of Thrones, but the Song of Ice (Others/Walkers) and Fire (dragons) that matters. And I think the final mins. of last night’s ep. pretty much confirm this.

  540. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Totally random theory about rest of this season:

    –Bran won’t go with Jon after the rescue and the mutineers are killed. (That’ll proceed pretty much as one would expect.) But the injury to Hodor means they hole up at Craster’s Keep for at least one or two extra episodes, and get a bit more history of the children of Craster. Which gives you the title of Episode 10 – the attack by White Walkers at the Three-Eyed Raven’s Tree and defense by the Children of the Forest. So, 2 kinds of children.

  541. Angie
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Loved this episode! And as far as Jaime’s storyline is concerned, the rape scene melted away in the superior acting of Nikolaj and Gwen. There was some really beautiful emotional work here by the two of them. I was in tears all throughout the goodbye, and what a nice touch that Jaime initiates the goodbye this time, and not Brienne. Highly symbolic, now that Cersai is out of the picture, which is part of the function the rape accomplished (see my previous comment under Nikolaj’s article, #130 for my thoughts on the rape). The rape scene in the show between Jaime and Cersai is Jaime’s darkest moment by far.

    But out of darkness, comes light, there we have the contrast again (fire/ice), and we have the giving of Oathkeeper, and the charge to Brienne. Might Oathkeeper become Lightbringer? I have wondered about that given the flaming sword on Jaime’s armor.

    It might be nice for the fans if they did show a love scene with Jaime and Brienne, to not only show Jaime does have a full capacity to love as well as to soothe the “trauma” the rape scene caused for some fans of Jaime. It is quite clear now they love each other. Great episode.

  542. Call Mac
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Cielo Snow,

    Not dead, according to Martin, but ice elves with the ability to turn into mist/snow and lurk unseen among humans north of the wall, with the ability to shape ice into fantastic objects, and the ability to reanimate dead creatures and humans into zombies. So what we saw was a white walker transferring their magic powers into a human baby…the baby didn’t die, so we should infer that it will grow into one of these creatures, which can live for hundreds of years according to some of the myths Martin tells about them in the books.

    Here’s a couple theories: White walkers began making their comeback because the last dragon died 100 years before the beginning of this story. And there are no gods, just superstitions, and creatures with magical abilities, including some humans, and the offspring of cross-breeding humans with magical creatures. This has been hinted at in the books with cross-breeding between white walkers and humans, and possibly between the green people that Bran is seeking. The books have emphasized that magical abilities are growing stronger around the world now that dragons have come back. It will ultimately be dragon fire, dragonglass spears, and dragon metal swords that drive the white walkers back into “hibernation” or lurking status. One last theory regarding the riddle of dragonglass candles: how do you light them? With dragon fire…I’m guessing, but I bet the dragonglass candle at the citadel has been burning for over a hundred years.

    Pirates, zombies, elves, dragons, knights and castles and errant knight quests, desert dwellers, a Venetian-like city, cult of assasins…LOVE THIS STORY….it’s like Martin took every fantasy element he could think of and integrated it into this story.

  543. kris
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    I am with you but while I think the episode was well written, it was such a jumpy cluster. The ending was fantastic but everything leading up to it was such a mish-mash. I like Cogman but I wasn’t as blown away as some. Aside from Littlefinger, Tyrion and Brienne, the characters all seem so different. It felt like a first episode, not an established show in season 4.
    I think I need to give it another view to wrap my brain around it all. The problem might be, for me, that there are so many plot lines happening, that week after week they jump from one to another, sometimes skipping weeks where we don’t see characters. It’s disjointed. I know this is nothing new for GoT but it seemed to work better in the previous seasons. This could prove to be the perfect season to watch in it’s entirety in one fell swoop when it is all said and done. The puzzle right now is missing way to many pieces.

  544. Craig
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    Just realized something…

    The kid that the Thenns sent back to Castle Black- He mentioned he was the best archer back at his keep.
    He is going to be the one that kills Ygritte.

    I wondered why they had Ygritte so cold-bloodedly kill that boy’s father, but that completely makes sense now.

  545. Jen@House Stark
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    gewa76:
    Did anyone else have their HBO feed screw up and start showing an ending from True Blood? Wait…that was Game of Thrones???

    Rolling on the floor laughing

  546. Sid
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Andrew:
    I am so over book purists. They are—obviously not entirely but for the most part—entirely insufferable. Christ, the show is not the exact same as the books. That doesn’t make one better than the other.

    Jesus, some of you people make me sad.

    Being a book reader who loved this prior episode, I’m going to have to agree with this assessment.

  547. Macdaley
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    True enough. I guess it’s probably my own desire for HBO to develop more of the stories I have an interest in. I found during the books that Danerys and Brans storylines were an “exhausting” read. So long, with not much really happening. And I guess my concern is that HBO may never complete the story. I know they keep renewing the series, but there is always a fear they won’t.
    As far as pacing goes……I’m not sure. I know that ASOS isn’t the best, but given the “license” D&D are taking with the story, why do they even need to stick strictly to the book timeline. It’s a good thing to have some issues with the series because it means they’re doing a good job with it and have me invested. When I think of the alternative being that this story may never have made it to the screen at all, what do I really have to complain about? When LOTR was made, I’m not sure if there was this level of “fandom” so to speak. And the LOTR story was much shorter. ASoIF is such a huge, encompassing undertaking. How can they avoid a little bit of fan backlash? All in all, I’m spoiled. The quality of the episodes this season has been spectacular. So when there’s a drop off maybe I’m a little more sensitive than I should be.

    Regardless, I can’t wait for next Sunday!

  548. TheFrozenKing
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    okay pretty awesome episode,but i did not like the bran story with them getting captured,unless we get coldhands next episode,rest of it was fantastic,all of the jamie scenes was awesome,and the Deanerys story keeps getting better and better!
    GIVE US COLDHANDS !

  549. Braincandy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Can we give it up for B cog!!! So well done.

    This seems to be the most talked about episode for the Sullied.

  550. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Haven’t caught up with all the posts but I find it interesting that so many have problems with the brutality and harshness of the sexual violence at Craster’s Keep. Is it relevant or irrelevant that a very talented woman (Michelle MacLaren) directed those scenes of disturbing violence against women? Does that affect how we should process those scenes in any way?

    This clearly wasn’t a case of a bunch of men (BCogs and D & D) sitting around trying to up the rape quotient for no reason. This was the logical conclusion of a mutiny of formerly celibate criminals suddenly cut off from civilization entirely. And Michelle MacLaren had a huge hand in crafting those scenes for us to watch. She’s not just a journeyman director taking orders from D & D… she has an artistic viewpoint of her own.

  551. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Def a fanfic… Between this episode and dead babies in jars on Dragonstone i wouldn’t mind if Cogman never wrote another ep.

    I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about how cheesey Dany’s conquest of Mereen was.

    I liked the WW reveal though.

  552. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    So what are they going to do with Jon when Stannis offers him Winterfell. He knows the legitegate heir is still alive. So will we not see his self struggle with being brother and Lord Commander of the Nights Watch or the Lord of Winterfell.

  553. Iconoclast
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    What if the actor for Coldhands was actually cast back in Season 1? The return of the actor might be kept secret, like the Jason Momoa surprise reprisal of Khal Drogo at the end of season 2. HBO might dismiss the book facade (a la Arstan Whitebeard/Barristan Selmy) and outright confirm book hints and/or fan speculation (a la Renly and Loras being gay and Craster’s babies becoming white walkers) by re-introducing Benjen Stark played by Joseph Mawle? Would Jon Snow be more willing to let Bran go off with their Uncle Benjen Stark, whom interestingly enough is assumed to be dead by everyone in the North (Ramsay Snow and Roose Bolton consider Jon Snow to be the only Stark family member with the Night’s Watch; they have no concern about or make any mention of Bran’s Uncle Benjen Stark?

  554. TC
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    I love the departures from the book. just awesome. Bran needed to have his story line revamped for the Show. and love the bluntness on who took out Joff and explaining why the white walkers are taking the babies. lots of WTF moments. thought it was an excellent episode.

  555. Shmofo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    I am not a book purist, but if they cut Zhoraq mo Lofak and Lhorak zo Qoral from Meereenese plot, I’m done with this show, they’ll definitely ruin the books for me.

    No, seriously, I liked the episode very much, as a fact, in a twisted way, I like the parts where they stray away from the books even more than the “puristic” ones. I can hardly wait the 5th season, where they will completely reshape AFFC and ADWD, where we can expect a lot of surprises, and even more the 6th and the 7th — Unsullied at last, UNSULLIED AT LAST! I’LL BE UNSULLIED AT LAST!!

    For me, the equation was always books>show, but this is not the right question anyway, the show will give me the closure and the ending of all the storylines I am waiting nearly two decades to come to an end. Fine, if in 2030 GRRM finishes his series, I’ll buy it and read it (I’m not buying any not-last book from him anymore, I’m done with unfinished series), I may well enjoy it too, but for now, I just want this story to surprise me and keep me on toes and keep me entertained and enjoying, like the first three books did more than a decade ago.

    Spoil me, D&D, spoil me Cogman, I want to be spoilt, that’s the only thing I want. Spoil me, HBO, spoil me in the way, Martin never managed to. I’m in your hands, like Reek in Ramsay’s, but willingly and enjoying every second of the journey we embark together. SPOIL ME, USE ME AND ABUSE ME!

  556. Mr Fixit
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Looking at the episode reviews, a lot of them are upset that the rape was not directly addressed (both book readers and non book readers). Its probably because the scene last week was not intended as such. I just hope D&D don’t find themselves forced to invent a resolution to that rape in season 5 because of all the backlash.

    Meh. Critics jumping on bandwagons, really. As usual.

    Go read many of the original Ep.3 reviews that had been written in advance before the whole “outrage” thing. Majority of them barely mentions the rape or if they mention it, it’s matter-of-factly, noting an interesting deviation from the books. Now, those same reviewers are expressing their displeasure because GoT didn’t “address the rape”.

    They are so desperately trying to be relevant it’s not even amusing.

  557. Zack
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Sunfyre:
    Haven’t caught up with all the posts but I find it interesting that so many have problems with the brutality and harshness of the sexual violence at Craster’s Keep. Is it relevant or irrelevant that a very talented woman (Michelle MacLaren) directed those scenes of disturbing violence against women? Does that affect how we should process those scenes in any way?

    This clearly wasn’t a case of a bunch of men (BCogs and D & D) sitting around trying to up the rape quotient for no reason.This was the logical conclusion of a mutiny of formerly celibate criminals suddenly cut off from civilization entirely. And Michelle MacLaren had a huge hand in crafting those scenes for us to watch. She’s not just a journeyman director taking orders from D & D… she has an artistic viewpoint of her own.

    Agreed. This week’s rape was probably by a rapist taking advantage of an opportunity to return to his old ways. I don’t ‘get’ people who complain about rape ‘because rape is bad’ and give a pass to murder depiction. Unlike the scene last week when a man trying to be worthy of his status as a Kingsguard raped his lover…here there is just (probably) a raper on the Wall raping somebody.

    It’s an unpleasant moment, to be sure. But it’s not out of line to show it, or anything.

  558. Jon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Michel,

    I’m holding out hope that “Thenn Warg” is code for “Varamyr Sixskins” the way that “Boy” was code for “Ramsay Snow.”

  559. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound:
    Sansa Bird,

    What is your opinion on Theon? He was :

    1) Almost raped by a man.
    2) Physically tortured.
    3) Mentally tortured.
    4) Raped by two women (he clearly said “No” because terrified of Ramsay if he found out)
    5) Castrated.

    Almost nothing was hidden from it, except the 5th point.

    Has any female character suffered anything similar? Or are we going for the route of “women are precious characters, no one cares about men”.

    Overall there have been 1,528 male deaths, 26 female deaths and 207 children killed. The male deaths take up 85% of the deaths in the series where as the females only take up 2% (children take up 13%).

    That’s from the books. The show has, probably, a rather similar %.

    What do you have to say about that?

    Oh gods. Please don’t tell me this site is getting an MRA infestation. A lot of people did find Theon’s treatment upsetting. I found it upsetting, but necessary for the story. Making Jaime rape Cersei doesn’t advance the story and showing rapes up close and personal isn’t necessary for the story.

    The notion that no one cares about male characters is just absurd. Just stop.

  560. Zack
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Iconoclast,

    I am not sure evidence supports the idea that Benjen is Coldhands, but it is one of my personal favorite fan theories anyway and I would so love for it to be the case.

  561. Mod
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    I forgot, Margaery… what the hell are you waiting for? Jump Tommen and ride him until you are pregnant!

  562. JR
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    SPOILERs

    Check this crazy theory from Screencrush that looks plausible.

    One of two things happened here. HBO either made a mistake and wrote a little bit of lore into their plot synopsis, realized it was inaccurate and changed it … or they confirmed that the legend of The Night’s King is real and that he’s commanding the White Walkers before he even got mentioned on the show. We’re ready to believe the second option — that lead White Walker is wearing a crown for R’hllor’s sake, not to mention George R.R. Martin openly stated that he’s already informed the producers of ‘Game of Thrones’ how he intends to end the books. Fans have been debating the identity of The Night’s King and whether he’s still alive and commanding the undead North of the Wall for years. The fact that the network jumped right in and seemingly confirmed this still has our jaws on the floor.
    The craziness of this scene goes beyond the White Walkers transforming a baby into one of their own (a detail that’s also completely new to book readers). It goes beyond our first look at the Land of Always Winter, a region that George R.R. Martin has been teasing for ages. It goes beyond the fact that there are 14 White Walkers present in this scene and 14 Fires of Valyria (which is a rabbit hole for another day, but c’mon, it’s called ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’!)
    The biggest and most important thing that this confirms if valid is that the big bad of ‘Game of Thrones’ is a Stark. Yep. In his story, Bran does say that the identity of The Night’s King is unknown, but he adds that he was always told that he was a Stark. And brother to the King in the North. And also named Bran.
    With two books and three-four seasons remaining, is ‘Game of Thrones’ ultimately going to be about the “good” Lannisters defeating the “evil” Stark and his supernatural army? Call us crazy (and we are just playing the role of watchful, obsessive fans here), but we think that really could be the case. If so, the history of Westeros will rewrite the entire Stark family as the villains of this saga.

  563. Tatters
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,
    I thought the rape and torture where equally important. I dont see how showing torture is less gratifying than rape. None or both is what I think. Or it should be a better way of doing it.

  564. noodle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    last week rape, this week inappropriate child touching per Tommen and Meera. that’s progress, congrats HBO!

    wow no one is mentioning they skipped Bran&Co’s awesome magic talking Wall door scene, that really enraged me.

  565. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,

    I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about how cheesey Dany’s conquest of Mereen was.

    I wasn’t a fan of that either. It could have been really suspenseful and exciting but was way too rushed and yea, kind of cheesy, especially the Mhysa chants. There should have been multiple scenes this episode for the slave revolt and Dany’s conquest.

  566. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    noodle,

    No one is mentioning that because they skipped the talking door last season. That happens before he goes beyond the Wall.

  567. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    After sleeping on it, my wish for next episode is this: Bran wargs Hodor again. Hodor/Bran goes all Hulk smash and releases the direwolves. The wolves and Hodor/Bran cause enough of a disturbance to escape and before the mutineers can collect themselves and go after them, Jon and the other NW men arrive. Karl taunts Jon about Bran having been there. After the mutineers are put down, Jon will want to go after Bran and take him back to the relative safety of the Wall, but he can’t because they have to go back to the Wall and prepare for battle. It will mirror the season 1 Jon who made the decision to desert then but makes the decision to not desert now. It will show that Jon has grown into the kind of person who can lead the NW.

    There. My fanfic for the day.

  568. Tatters
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Ser Endrew Tarth,

    It was more cheesy in the books.

  569. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Shmofo:
    I am not a book purist, but if they cut Zhoraq mo Lofak and Lhorak zo Qoral from Meereenese plot, I’m done with this show, they’ll definitely ruin the books for me.

    This must be in the Internet’s hidden “sarcasm font”, right?

  570. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    After sleeping on it, my wish for next episode is this:Bran wargs Hodor again.Hodor/Bran goes all Hulk smash and releases the direwolves.The wolves and Hodor/Bran cause enough of a disturbance to escape and before the mutineers can collect themselves and go after them, Jon and the other NW men arrive.Karl taunts Jon about Bran having been there.After the mutineers are put down, Jon will want to go after Bran and take him back to the relative safety of the Wall, but he can’t because they have to go back to the Wall and prepare for battle.It will mirror the season 1 Jon who made the decision to desert then but makes the decision to not desert now.It will show that Jon has grown into the kind of person who can lead the NW.

    There.My fanfic for the day.

    I’d be cool with this.

    It bothered me seeing Hodor beaten. I want him to dish out some payback, even if Bran is the one pulling the strings.

  571. tysnow
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    For those complaining about the Meereen conquest or lack thereof, from a military stand point there is no way that the unsullied could take that city in an assault.
    The rule of thumb is five (5) times the ratio of attacker to besieged for a successful assault. Looking at Meereen from a logical visual viewpoint, the city appears to have a population of somewhere around 500,000 at the minimum. Three slaves to every freeman. Lets figure 1/5 were children, thats 400,000 adults. half are women, so that leaves 200,000 adult males. Three to one means 50,000 freemen. Perhaps half could be considered to have fighting capability. Therefore Dany would require an army of not less than 100,000 to even have a remote chance of taking Meeren in a frontal assault.
    The only logical way to take the city was from the inside, utilizing the 150,000 or so male slaves.

    Book readers know D&D are saving the Dany budget for the Siege of Meereen in book six, where Dany’s role is switched from offense to defense.

  572. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Mod:
    I forgot, Margaery… what the hell are you waiting for? Jump Tommen and ride him until you are pregnant!

    Isn’t this the part where we jump in and oooh, aaaah, about how age inappropriate that all would be and how TRAUMATIZED Tommen would be over it all? *eye roll* (PUH-LEASE)

  573. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    After sleeping on it, my wish for next episode is this:Bran wargs Hodor again.Hodor/Bran goes all Hulk smash and releases the direwolves.The wolves and Hodor/Bran cause enough of a disturbance to escape and before the mutineers can collect themselves and go after them, Jon and the other NW men arrive.Karl taunts Jon about Bran having been there.After the mutineers are put down, Jon will want to go after Bran and take him back to the relative safety of the Wall, but he can’t because they have to go back to the Wall and prepare for battle.It will mirror the season 1 Jon who made the decision to desert then but makes the decision to not desert now.It will show that Jon has grown into the kind of person who can lead the NW.

    There.My fanfic for the day.

    Except Locke was promised lands and title to kill Brandon Stark and HE is not letting him go. And Locke knows Bran is likely to be there (because he overheard Jon and Sam saying so) and that’s why Locke volunteered to go north of the Wall…

    Sorry. This ends with Locke trying to kill Bran, Jon killing Locke and recognizing that Bran won’t be safe in Castle Black and letting him go.

    I might point out that the REAL problem with this change in the series is NOT Bran Stark and Jon Snow meeting. The weird part is having Jojen Reed and Jon Snow meeting. THAT is where things could get VERY interesting.

    That is because it seems likely that Jojen Reed knows who Jon Snow’s mother is.

  574. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Except Locke was promised lands and title to kill Brandon Stark and HE is not letting him go. And Locke knows Bran is likely to be there (because he overheard Jon and Sam saying so) and that’s why Locke volunteered to go north of the Wall…

    Sorry. This ends with Locke trying to kill Bran, Jon killing Locke and recognizing that Bran won’t be safe in Castle Black and letting him go.

    I might point out that the REAL problem with this change in the series is NOT Bran Stark and Jon Snow meeting. The weird part is having Jojen Reed and Jon Snow meeting. THAT is where things could get VERY interesting.


    That is because it seems likely that Jojen Reed knows who Jon Snow’s mother is.

    You could be right but it would be such a shame to lose Locke/Noah Taylor just when he’s getting interesting. I was looking forward to future subtext with Locke as one of the key players in what happens to Jon at the end of DWD.

  575. noodle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    oh, I must have been just reminded of it because of Sam and Jon’s conversating about Bran&Co. that happened last season? well, I’m enraged they made it so Jon knows and Sam wasn’t sworn to secrecy. and enraged I’m late on being enraged about skipping the magic talking door. how could they, how dare they, etc etc.

    it was nice to see the Others’ house and front yard decor though.

  576. Steel_Wind
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Unresolved from Episode 4: what green-dream vision did Jojen Reed have in Craster’s Keep?

  577. tysnow
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    wizardeyes,

    Yep, and just like Big W dumb ass, she is in for a rude awakening.
    Though it is not totally W’s fault, he permitted the Pentagon to devise a flawed strategy based on old guard tactical mentality, by men who cannot strategically think outside the box. Let alone consider cultural and other outside forces in creating tactics.
    Compare U.S. casualties and the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths directly placed at America’s feet, to the British, who suffered less than one hundred deaths and inflicted less than three thousand civilian casualties in Basra and S.E. Iraq over five years.(British jurisdiction)
    Clearly the Pentagon, their corporate sponsors,the Neo-Cons in the Republican Party and their Iraqi strategy didn’t care about the lives of the people they were suppose to liberate. While the British cared for the latter and adopted the proper tactic as liberators.
    In my humble opinion, Cheney and W are war criminals like Jackson almost two centuries earlier. In fact according to current American policy, if a foreign ruler had done what Bush and Cheney did in Iraq, our gvmt would have branded them a war criminal. Look at Assad, he is just following America’s lead (cough, Bush/Cheney, cough).

  578. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Cinegeek:
    Trapped Direwolves…NEVER!

    No respect for the direwolves. ): Ghost caged???? Summer trapped??? Ugh. I bet Nymeria is in some cage in the Riverlands then. It’s tough to witness but hopefully (like Stannis) they will be redeemed soon and take a more proactive stance.

  579. AA
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    My biggest concern with Bran’s story line is that it will have to resolve itself with either:
    1. Bran and co. escaping, which doesn’t seem likely based on how easily they were captured. It will also be extremely repetitive to have Bran and Jon almost cross paths, just like last season. Or
    2. Jon saving Bran and co. and then what…letting them continue North? Just wouldn’t make sense.

    I think the best outcome will be to have Coldhands rescue them, as other people have mentioned above. All signs point at him not being left out of the show. I think they hinted at him with the crows (or were those ravens) last season when Sam slew the White Walker. And Bran’s crew will definitely need help moving North after the run in at Craster’s.

    Still not sure what will happen with Locke. I like the idea mentioned by a few people that he can be involved in Jon’s assassination (attempt?). But it might be more interesting if Locke ends up being helpful to Jon and the Watch. He seems to hate people who are entitled, and Jon might impress him as a bastard turned leader. Basically, I think any option is out there for Locke, including being killed next episode.

  580. Roekest
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    The Brown Viper:
    The only thing I can honestly say I was really annoyed with in this episode is the fact that Sam broke his promise to Bran and told Jon he was still alive.Other than that the WW scene was dope. DOPE! Purist might want to stop watching the show now. Game of thrones is in the driver seat!

    I’d call myself a purist, but I thought last night was SOLID. I’m starting to think that White Walkers are A) Semi, if not full on, good guys, and B) The Wall was built to protect the White Walkers (the Old Gods, IMO) from the rest of Westeros; not the other way around like we’ve been told.

  581. Dogs
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    But did you not see how friggin’ huge they were this episode? Compared with previous seasons, it seems like they actually put visual effects effort into making them consistently huge rather than interspersed trick shots with regular wolves.

  582. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Dogs,

    I do like the “first-person” direwolf perspective though…maybe a foreshadowing of Jon warging Ghost for a while in the books? Their size was great…especially when he caused Rast to shit his pants when he lunged…but after Grey Wind, I frickin’ hate to see these magnificent beasts helpless in a cage. They are more savvy than that! #NOONEUNDERSTANDS!

    I will warm up to the other stuff (I’m rather intrigued) but the direwolf stuff doesn’t sit well with me.

  583. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Dogs,

    Ghost in particular looked amazing.

    Roekest,

    There are some very detailed expressions of this theory. Some readers speculate that they are, in fact, proactively defending themselves from what they consider mortal threats to their existence. This potentially includes dragons and fire magic.

    Here’s a great post on the topic. It’s not definitive, but it’s definitely food for thought:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

  584. Arya Dunyett
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    I loved it! A surprise a minute!

    The only nit I would pick would be the language used to write graffiti on the walls of Meereen. It should have been Valyrian, the language used by the slaves and the Unsullied and Danerys when she speaks to the Meereen citizens. The translation would be shown as in speech.

    Otherwise, I’ve been pondering the use of Craster’s boys by the White Walkers. We know there have been female WWs because GRRM tells us the story of the Night’s King and his seduction by a beautiful WW. We know Craster’s Keep was protected by the sacrifices given to the WW.

    Before that and continuing on, the WWs must have preyed on the Wildlings to multiply their force with children. The fighters (Wights) were easy enough to find by scavenging through the dead bodies left after the Wildling warred amongst themselves. And the occasional live recruit.

    The line of figures shown in the last scene appeared to be dressed alike, and not like the other White Walkers we’ve seen ranging abroad. Are they all Craster’s sons? No females? Is that horned fellow the leader? Is he the Night King? If so, is he the same one mentioned in the old legends?

    Do I actually expect the geneology of this species to make sense?

    The patterns used by the White Walkers to display their work for the benefit of survivors (the vortex of horse parts on the Fist of the First Men) seems strangely obsessive or perhaps it’s their attempt at artistic humor – like crop circles. Inquiring nerds want to know.

    What brought the White Walkers out of their icy sleep in the recent past? They appear to have been active long before the birth of the dragons.

    More details than were seen in the books, but they simply generate more questions, provoke more thoughts.

    So damn Good!! The whole episode! Thanks, guys.

  585. Jules
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    TheWolfofWinterfell,

    Gatt plays the Magnar

  586. Vin Sidious
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Dominique Lavigne,

    Indeed. I think Tommen should be very greatful that Margaery didn’t kiss him on the lips. Queenly courtesy, that was.

  587. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Tori Targaryen,

    GRRM is known for taking classic story tropes and turning them on their heads. Its not all that he’s making an original he just plays with with all these archetypes to create a truly unique story. ANd because sometimes he feeds into them (shy boy no one likes gets the girl/ Sam and Gilly) or completely destroys them ( Quentin Martel getting eaten by the dragons when he tries to tame them)

  588. Roekest
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Dogs,

    Ghost in particular looked amazing.

    Roekest,

    There are some very detailed expressions of this theory. Some readers speculate that they are, in fact, proactively defending themselves from what they consider mortal threats to their existence. This potentially includes dragons and fire magic.

    Here’s a great post on the topic. It’s not definitive, but it’s definitely food for thought:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

    Thanks. That was very interesting.

  589. Carne
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    AA,

    My guess at how it will go down:

    So with Jon and his men arriving at Craster’s Karl will gather some of the mutineers and they end up fighting outside the keep. Some mutineers have probably been set to guard Bran & Co. Based on the preview Hodor looks pretty angry, and my bet is that one of the mutineers (Rast) gets less than friendly with Bran, Meera or Jojen. Hodor flips and end up going all Hulk on the mutineers, giving our heroes a chance to escape.

  590. Husband2Bears
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    You really need to stop reading the books and watching the show if this is bothering you. It wasn’t intended as rape, yes the show made a bit of a botch of the scene, but otherwise it plays out like it does in the book. you just have to imagine that Cerseis lines came after the scene ended “yes Jaime, do it, you’re home” etc.

  591. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    AA,

    That is an interesting thought (about Locke). If they did that, Locke could be on the list of Ramsay’s pink letter demands.

  592. WildSeed
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    + 1 on that, ser! Well stated.

  593. Brendan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    Matt,
    I was not insulting Cogman in any way. Re-read my post. You didn’t understand it the first time around, that is apparent. I have every right to be critical of the show. I am a book fan and show fan. I think the books are infinitely better than the show is. I think the show has diminished some main characters with some poor choices (Dany losing her dragons, Jon losing Ygritte off her ‘leash’, Jaime becoming a rapist, Bran being foolish enough to get captured and become prisoner at Craster’s). That is my opinion, which I am 100% entitled to. Thank you and carry on with your blind praise of every aspect of the show.

  594. BinhoF
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Last night’s episode wasn’t my favourite, but it was still pretty good! Kind of worried about the Bran departure, we’ll see where they take it though.

    My big questions are…where is Myrcella? Nobody has mentioned her so far this season, despite her being in Dorne. Why didn’t Oberyn bring her up as a bargaining chip? Why aren’t the Dornish trying to make her the Queen, as they did in the books? Why hasn’t Cersei mentioned her at all?

    I’m more curious from a plot perspective. She didn’t necessarily have the most exciting storyline, but hopefully she doesn’t just disappear, as often happens in TV shows!

    Also, where is the Blackfish? Cersei said Jaime had been back for ‘months’ in this episode. When will he get sent to end the siege of Riverrun? Is there even going to be a siege anymore? I’m curious why no mention has been made of the Blackfish escaping, and the mopping up of the Riverlands. This is mainly world building I guess, but these are events that helped to add depth to the world of ASOIAF in the books.

  595. Leslie
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    I agree. Don’t know if it’ll be Coldhands, but that would make the most sense. Remember how fast the water froze when Rast dumped it in front of Ghost? Remember how much that frightened him? It must have suddenly turned a lot colder there. I think there are white walkers or Coldhands near. Bet they kill the deserters in Craster’s keep and help Bran’s group on their way to the Children of the forest. That will also prevent Jon and Bran from meeting and consequently allow Bran to finish his mission.

  596. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Brendan:
    Matt,

    Matt,
    I was not insulting Cogman in any way. Re-read my post. You didn’t understand it the first time around, that is apparent. I have every right to be critical of the show. I am a book fan and show fan. I think the books are infinitely better than the show is. I think the show has diminished some main characters with some poor choices (Dany losing her dragons, Jon losing Ygritte off her ‘leash’, Jaime becoming a rapist, Bran being foolish enough to get captured and become prisoner at Craster’s). That is my opinion, which I am 100% entitled to. Thank you and carry on with your blind praise of every aspect of the show.

    While I agree that many of the choices making the characters look like idiots, I believe they painted themselves in this corner when they jettisoned most of Jon and Arya’s character arcs.

    I think the thing that made me saddest was how the Half-Hand was more or less thrown away. It was one of the best action scenes in Jon’s development arc that was perfect for television. But instead we get a staged fight on the road with no pursuit over the mountains, no battle at the cave mouth and no Stone Snake trying to make a break for the Fist or Castle Black.

    Not to mention the total lack of mutiny prep and WW battle at the Fist of the First Men.

  597. Shock Me
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    BinhoF:
    Last night’s episode wasn’t my favourite, but it was still pretty good! Kind of worried about the Bran departure, we’ll see where they take it though.

    My big questions are…where is Myrcella? Nobody has mentioned her so far this season, despite her being in Dorne. Why didn’t Oberyn bring her up as a bargaining chip? Why aren’t the Dornish trying to make her the Queen, as they did in the books? Why hasn’t Cersei mentioned her at all?

    I’m more curious from a plot perspective. She didn’t necessarily have the most exciting storyline, but hopefully she doesn’t just disappear, as often happens in TV shows!

    Also, where is the Blackfish? Cersei said Jaime had been back for ‘months’ in this episode. When will he get sent to end the siege of Riverrun? Is there even going to be a siege anymore? I’m curious why no mention has been made of the Blackfish escaping, and the mopping up of the Riverlands. This is mainly world building I guess, but these are events that helped to add depth to the world of ASOIAF in the books.

    Actually both the Blackfish and Myrcella have been mentioned. At the end of last season Bolton mentions he’s escaped. And this season Oberyn mentioned Myrcella being fostered in Dorne “where murder and rape are considered distasteful”.

  598. KG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Suzaku,

    No, you aren’t the only one. I’m as close to certain as I can get with this show that they won’t meet.

  599. House Nieder
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    You now have me hoping for this as well. Thank you.

  600. Leo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if we could get confirmation next year of the “Myrcella is already dead” theory.

  601. BinhoF
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Shock Me: Actually both the Blackfish and Myrcella have been mentioned. At the end of last season Bolton mentions he’s escaped. And this season Oberyn mentioned Myrcella being fostered in Dorne “where murder and rape are considered distasteful”.

    Hmm, I must have missed that! Or forgotten it.

    In any case, it’s still being sidelined. Cersei was pretty upset at losing Myrcella when she was shipped off, but she hasn’t mentioned her at all since Joffrey’s death. You would think it would be something she would have a dig at Oberyn or Tyrion about, especially now. And Tywin doesn’t seem the least bit concerned about having a potential heir floating around in Dorne.

    And it would have been nice to have some mention about what’s going on in the Riverlands and at Riverrun. They were a central part of last season, but are completely off the radar so far. I personally feel it would have made for better early season filler. Actually, did that farmer the Hound killed mention something? I remember him talking about the riverlords, but I can’t remember what he said…

  602. Thoros of Brooklyn
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Craig:
    Just realized something…

    The kid that the Thenns sent back to Castle Black- He mentioned he was the best archer back at his keep.
    He is going to be the one that kills Ygritte.

    I wondered why they had Ygritte so cold-bloodedly kill that boy’s father, but that completely makes sense now.

    :O

  603. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    BinhoF: Hmm, I must have missed that! Or forgotten it.

    In any case, it’s still being sidelined. Cersei was pretty upset at losing Myrcella when she was shipped off, but she hasn’t mentioned her at all since Joffrey’s death. You would think it would be something she would have a dig at Oberyn or Tyrion about, especially now. And Tywin doesn’t seem the least bit concerned about having a potential heir floating around in Dorne.

    And it would have been nice to have some mention about what’s going on in the Riverlands and at Riverrun. They were a central part of last season, but are completely off the radar so far. I personally feel it would have made for better early season filler. Actually, did that farmer the Hound killed mention something? I remember him talking about the riverlords, but I can’t remember what he said…

    I agree they could drop in a mention of Myrcella – Cersei could have asked Oberyn “is your family taking care of my daughter?” or something to remind the audience that Myrcella is practically a hostage in Dorne. Would up the stakes even more in the gamesmanship being played out between Oberyn and Tywin.

    As for the Riverlands – that feels like Season 5 material to me when Jamie finally leaves Kings Landing. Unless they use Brienne’s story as a way to provide exposition about the state of Riverrun this season. Will be interesting to see if they get the Blackfish and possibly Edmure back for Season 5.

  604. mariamb
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I agree with your perspective. Well done.

    Thoros: I cursed loudly at the tv when I saw he was there….He scares me…

    Noah Taylor does a great job with Locke but I don’t like him either. However, I think he is around for awhile since his current purpose is to be a threat to the remaining Starks. I wonder if he will end up instrumental in the Fake Arya plot since he clearly is not going to capture or kill Bran. If the Boltons want a Stark heir, perhaps Locke will be sent to find an appropriate stand-in.

    UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor:
    To the editors of the site or whoever is in charge: COULD WE PLS GET A JUMP TO BOTTOM BUTTON. Surely its not that hard to create. Im on my phone and it takes ages to get to the bottom!!!!

    Another vote for the “jump to bottom” button. And while you are at it, please…please make the adjustment to the “Show Spoilers” button so that I do not have to click it each time I refresh the page? Please!

  605. YeOldGods
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    FNF,

    The show is pretty much a fan-fic now, with some good episodes and some bad episodes. Tonight’s was mostly good minus the Craster Keep crap. What a waste of time imo. The Great Other spoiler for us Sullied? Interesting. That looked like Winds of Winter material imo, considering GRRM said we would be looking further north than ever before.

    Might be a good time for you to stop watching? Maybe write your own fan-fic and hope it coincides with Winds of Winter?

  606. Leslie
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Except Locke was promised lands and title to kill Brandon Stark and HE is not letting him go. And Locke knows Bran is likely to be there (because he overheard Jon and Sam saying so) and that’s why Locke volunteered to go north of the Wall…

    Sorry. This ends with Locke trying to kill Bran, Jon killing Locke and recognizing that Bran won’t be safe in Castle Black and letting him go.

    I might point out that the REAL problem with this change in the series is NOT Bran Stark and Jon Snow meeting. The weird part is having Jojen Reed and Jon Snow meeting. THAT is where things could get VERY interesting.


    That is because it seems likely that Jojen Reed knows who Jon Snow’s mother is.

    wow! never thought about that angle! That’s a spoiler I’d love to see :-D

  607. GeoffreynotJoffrey
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    I loved that episode so much because knowing what is going to happen after reading all the books has detracted from the enjoyment of this wonderful production.
    With a confused look on my face the wife asked what’s wrong and I said that didn’t happen in the book and that didn’t happen and holy shit I liked it.
    One question though didn’t Danys have Jorah go through the sewers because she found out why he was with her? Of course if that happened he would be banished from any plot line.

  608. zigzag
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    I dont like that they keep repeating and mentioning past plot points in the characters conversations this season, that’s for the lazy viewers! I love it when they treat us as intelligent audience which it also keeps the show consistent. If you watch the show and are a fan then do your homework! Either go and re-watch previous seasons or eat some blackberries which are supposedly good for memory!

    Stop all that “who’s that guy or where is this guy? ….”

    Angry rant?!?

  609. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
  610. Thoros of Brooklyn
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Craig:
    Just realized something…

    The kid that the Thenns sent back to Castle Black- He mentioned he was the best archer back at his keep.
    He is going to be the one that kills Ygritte.

    I wondered why they had Ygritte so cold-bloodedly kill that boy’s father, but that completely makes sense now.

    If that’s true, I wonder what Jon’s interaction with him will be like afterwards (If he finds out).

  611. theonetruebastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    @binhof OBERYN brought her up to both cersei and tywin when they had their lil head to head convo at joffs wedding…….BinhoF,

  612. IRON BORN
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    soo the others are crasters 99 sons(gillies son got away) interesting..

  613. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    zigzag:
    I dont like that they keep repeating and mentioning past plot points in the characters conversations this season, that’s for the lazy viewers! I love it when they treat us as intelligent audience which it also keeps the show consistent. If you watch the show and are a fan then do your homework! Either go and re-watch previous seasons or eat some blackberries which are supposedly good for memory!

    Stop all that “who’s that guy or where is this guy? ….”

    Angry rant?!?

    Not to be a D&D apologist but it must be really hard to find a balance on this stuff. Obviously they don’t want to handhold and spell out every little thing. But with this many characters, plotlines, locations combined with a complex strategic game of chess between different houses (and wild cards like Littlefinger and Varys) must be damn near impossible to juggle it all. It is hard for big moments and twists to land and have full effect if half of the audience is two or three steps behind.

    I don’t mind a little bit of underlining with dialogue or editing to make sure everyone is on the same page. The cut from Littlefinger to the Queen of Thorns in this episode made things very clear what was going on for show-only viewers. That was smart economical screenwriting from Cogman. He’s good at using transitions to get points across — he did a great job with Tyrion’s three “plans” to send Myrcella away in season 2. Quick and clear use of scripting and the powerful tool of editing.

  614. Red Hound
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Was that supposed to be some sort of personal attack, as if a MRA is an insult? Wow, some people (men and women) want equal treatment in divorce courts and more social support so less men commit suicide, such scummy behaviour!

    Theon being raped and castrated was upsetting, but no one ran to write silly blog entries about “rape culture” or sexual violence and stuff like that, which happened with Cersei and Jaime. THIS is silly.

    I actually invite you to read the recaps of that particular episode :

    http://winteriscoming.net/2013/05/17/episode-27-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-analysis/

    The only rape comments are about potential marital rape and supposed endorsement by HBO of “misogyny”. Go figure. The very same person defends Ramsay’s Bitches. No one calls him out.

    Next one :

    http://winteriscoming.net/2013/05/12/episode-27-the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-recap/

    Two people bring up rape, one is me who talks about rape in the book, the other is someone who gets some negative answers.

    There’s even a joke about it :

    WiC….

    Please have a curtain call for Theon’s testicles and a recap of all his sexual conquests up until that point…

    Should I continue or I think my point stands?

    EDIT : Ironically (depends how you look at it), your gravatar is from a movie of a woman torturing a man in a nasty fashion. Very fitting for this conversation.

  615. Ted
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    So I just noticed something while talking a to a friend of mine about the possibility of the Night’s King being The Great Other. The only person we really here talk about The Great Other is Mel, and she refuses to say his name. Coincidentally the Night’s King had his name struck from all books, and no one says/knows it anymore.

    These are really the only two characters who have a taboo associated with speaking their name, so that could certainly be a clue that they are one in the same.

  616. Ted
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    So I just noticed something while talking a to a friend of mine about the possibility of the Night’s King being The Great Other. The only person we really hear talk about The Great Other is Mel, and she refuses to say his name. Coincidentally the Night’s King had his name struck from all books, and no one says/knows it anymore.

    These are really the only two characters who have a taboo associated with speaking their name, so that could certainly be a clue that they are one in the same.

  617. Call Mac
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    RE speculation at: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

    Thanks TreeHugger, that link made for some really good reading!!! After reading the books a couple times through, I still hadn’t pieced together the probable parentage of Jon Snow. The mystery of parentage is a huge theme in mythology…especially in the age of Darth Vader…so it’s very interesting to consider that Ned Stark may not be the father. Thorne has a great theory.

    Thorne’s theories about a brokered peaceful resolution based on oathkeeping with the Others is in keeping with a recent interview with Martin. This week’s issue of Rolling Stone has a long interview with GRR Martin in which he describes growing up during the Vietnam Era and how he successfully registered as a Conscientious Objector during his college years to avoid the war. I don’t think this will have a LOTR massive war sequence at the end, instead I think we are witnessing Martin’s views on the pointlessness of war, and he will demonstrate that oathkeeping and mutual respect are the true path to peace.

    This reminds me of how much fun we had speculating about Harry Potter after book five was published and the movies were adding new perspectives to the story. Seems like we got pretty close to figuring out how things would turn out for Harry at that stage in the story. The closer Martin gets toward the finish, the more these storylines seem to force the story to resolve itself in certain ways. I suspect our man is still in the process of trying to figure out how to surprise us all.

  618. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    THIS JUST AIRED IN BRITIAN

    WHAAAAAAT JUST HAPPENED????????????????????? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHT?

    THE WHITE WALKERS ARE JUST SLAVES TO A HIGHER RACE? OMFGGGGGGGG????????

  619. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Hahahaha I went on GRRMs website to see if he was freaking out that they’ve jumped into TWOW but nope he’s like “whew, we’ve had quite a week at the Jean Cocteau”

    I’m not even surprised

  620. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    HOLY SHIT, WHAT AN EPISODE! FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC! That ending beats the season 2 finale by miles, and that truly means something! Wow, everything was just so good! I think people should just forget the scene that shall not be named, this season deserves better than for us to hold grudges.

    People who are saying “it’s so different from the books” are kidding themselves. Aside from the stuff in the North, it was as similar (or imaginably similar, considering that Margery scene) as any Bryan Cogman episode ever was. And those last two scenes really caught me off guard. I was expecting much less! Ghost locked in a cell- what?!- Bran being captured- I dreaded that possibility, but so far they’ve pulled it off, and my oh my that final scene. That was just so beautiful and cold and perfect and scary! This is much more White Walker action than we’ve ever seen in the books!

    The real question is- is the baby now a wight, or… Holy shit! I can’t believe they’ve shown that! And the King of the White Walkers (which is how I plan on calling that demon thingy) was a monstrosity! I can’t put in words just how good this episode was. And I was fearing it’ll end up being season 4′s “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”! Ha!

    I love this show. Sorry Georgie, but it’s happening and you know it.

  621. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Red Hound,

    From what I remember, people did complain about how graphic Theon’s scenes were. A lot. You’ll have to take it up with GRRM, the man who wrote it.

    And yes, MRA is an insult. They literally do nothing to help men. Their version of activism is harassing and doxxing feminists and making endless misogynistic comments online. They’re often racist and homophobic too. Anyone who thinks straight white cis men are an oppressed group is an idiot and I don’t mind saying it.

  622. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Okay okay I couldn’t really say anything else because I was blown away by the fucking HEART OF WINTER AND THE FUCKING RULER OF THE WHITE WALKERS

    but um:
    Cersei and Jaime was perfect
    Littlefinger and Sansa was perfect
    Tommen and Margaery and Ser Pounce was perfect, I was so surprised and happy with that
    Locke at the Wall was great, I was edge the entire time
    LOTS OF DIREWOLF ACTION, I WASN’T EXPECTING THAT THIS SEASON
    they put Sir, My Lady in!!! Yay awkward excited Pod

    and um:
    The shot of Dany overlooking the city, and then showing the flag on the pyramid, was the first time the CGI on this show has been bad,like really bad
    AND WHERE IS YARA???

  623. KG
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Pretty crazy, huh? :D We’re in bat country now!

    House Mormont:
    THIS JUST AIRED IN BRITIAN

    WHAAAAAAT JUST HAPPENED????????????????????? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHT?

    THE WHITE WALKERS ARE JUST SLAVES TO A HIGHER RACE? OMFGGGGGGGG????????

  624. Marissa O'Connor
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Skye,

    There’s a difference between the White Walkers and The others.
    I forget which is which, but one are the sentient one’s with an agenda (what we say last night). While the others are simply reanimated dead (zombies, like the little girl we saw in the first episode of season 1).
    That’s discussed in the books but not in too much detail. The others are just a tool the walkers use basically, not the walkers themselves. That’s why the zombies can be killed with fire, but you need obsidian to kill the walkers.
    Like I said I might be confused on the terms but basically as long as you know there’s a difference between the sentient and the reanimated corpses you’re good.

  625. Julia
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Yes sure only MEN are getting killed.Men men men.

  626. Bryan
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    This episode just blew my mind. Even though the ending was EPIC, it kind of boggled me a bit. Questions like will Jon just refuse Bran to travel when they meet up at crasters? (this is ofcourse if Bran still will be there when Jon comes)

  627. Jackman
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    The White Walkers are not (un)dead, only the wights are. The “normal” White Walkers are somewhat superhuman and supernatural beings, but these new, horned Darth (Sky)Walkers must be immortal elemental manifestations of ice – counterparts for the dragons!

    Only these elemental chiefs can “make” new White Walkers, and probably they are too powerful to be killed even with the dragon glass daggers. I bet we will see them fight the three dragons at the absolute end of the series… Who knows, maybe Melisandre turns the tide for the Fire against the Ice.

    Unless there are priests of ice, too? Among the children of the forest, maybe?

  628. You Understand Inequality But Not Equality
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Sansa Bird,

    You have issues. The fact that women being naked in a scene where someone is sexually mutilated is what you find wrong says everything about your bias and leanings.

    Bad things happen to people of both genders and all ages here, regardless of your discriminative nature.

  629. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Marissa O’Connor,

    The Others and White Walkers are the same thing. It is the wights that are just reanimated corpses controlled by the WW/Others.

  630. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: Except Locke was promised lands and title to kill Brandon Stark and HE is not letting him go. And Locke knows Bran is likely to be there (because he overheard Jon and Sam saying so) and that’s why Locke volunteered to go north of the Wall…

    Sorry. This ends with Locke trying to kill Bran, Jon killing Locke and recognizing that Bran won’t be safe in Castle Black and letting him go.

    I might point out that the REAL problem with this change in the series is NOT Bran Stark and Jon Snow meeting. The weird part is having Jojen Reed and Jon Snow meeting. THAT is where things could get VERY interesting.


    That is because it seems likely that Jojen Reed knows who Jon Snow’s mother is.

    Lol no…Locke will be the one killing Jon not the other way around

    I don’t like how the show has stole the surprise of some of my favourite wtf moments of the books by too much foreshadowing:

    1- Jon becoming Lord Commander
    2- Stannis coming to the rescue
    3- Jon getting stabbed
    and even Ygritte’s death by that boy…it was heartbreaking in the books, but show-viewers actually want her dead :S

    Also, poor Reeds and poor direwolves…none of them would get captured by Kurtz and his men in a million years. And wtf with Jon “Robin Williams” Snow…

    O well, all the Bran/Jon storyline is pretty silly, but that actually means they’re slowing Bran’s arc up, so they’ll still have some Bran stuff from AFFC/ADWD left for next season. So no TWOW spoilers until season 6 (the only spoiler from yesterday’s episode was the Night’s King bit, but that has been since erased…the rest was known for the books. And what’s this shit of book readers still getting confused with the WW/Others and the Wights?? o well)

  631. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    No , that’s Moma Walker. All the other White Walkers are apparently (or were) human babies.

  632. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    The baby was turned into a White Walker. This basically is what I thought was the case. In the books, Gilly says the babies’ “brothers” come and take them. Also, if the HBO recap of the episode was not just a typo, the guy who turned the baby into a White Walker is the Night’s King!

    Here is a good write-up on it: http://www.ign.com/wikis/game-of-thrones/Night's_King

  633. Carne
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink
  634. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I got the impression that the Night’s King isn’t a White Walker, and the White Walkers are just human manifestations of his power, since all the White Walkers have very human features and hair and he doesn’t, he’s definitely something different.

    White Walkers aren’t the evil beings they are at this point in the books, they’re just slaves of “the great other”

    I’m glad they put this in, since all momentum of the White Walker storyline just disappears in the books

  635. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Also since Jojen collapses from having a vision before this, does that mean he SAW this?

    Maybe Bran sees the city of Ice and the Night’s King in TWOW, since GRRM says the story goes North… although there weren’t any trees growing there

  636. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Ghost is NOT a plot hole!!!!! He is a hostage….they know Jon loves him and has a special bond. When Jon realizes they have Snow I’m predicting right now that Jon will consciously warg with Ghost and Bran will warg into Hodor to escape using the confusion of Jon’s attack to get out. He and Bran will not meet or they will meet very briefly in the midst of danger and Jon will tell Bran to leave fast.

  637. Kaeyrys
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    gia,

    Nah I reckon Coldhands comes and causes carnage at Craster’s and starts taking Bran and co. to the Three-Eyed Raven.

    Jon gets there too late/not at all as Wilding attack happens before they set off. Dreams as Ghost and sees the events unfold but as Ghost also sees Mance Rayder is near to Wall etc.

  638. daroe23
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Michael Kehoe,

    I would have to go back and check, but I am fairly certain the Theon never tells Bolton’s bastard the truth about Bran and Rickon either.

    Ramsay killed the Millers boys in the books. Original Reek was Ramsay.

  639. Greenjones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    And for those wondering how they could have caught Ghost…the same way they did Summer. In a trap.

  640. Niamhy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,

    Completely agree with you, Sansa is literally the only thing keeping me going right now. Why did we need more sexualised violence towards women? I felt ill and anxious during most of this episode, which is not a feeling I want while watching one of my favorite things.

  641. Geneva
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    Amazing. Yes. Love it.

  642. Tony
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Not sure if it has been mentioned yet…
    But how is that baby still alive as it arrives in the Land of Always Winter?
    George has mentioned the lands beyond the wall are roughly the size of Canada. I highly doubt the Lands of Always winter are anywhere near close enough to Craster’s keep for that babe to survive the journey…

  643. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Exactly, Bran was controlling Summer and he was completely focused on the sound of the baby, not thinking about traps.

  644. cosca
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Tony,

    Magic.

  645. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The Others and White Walkers are the same thing.

    As much as folks blast this opinion down our broadstreams, I’m not buying it. There is a difference. I’m not budging. :)

  646. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Exactly. They needed to go big with the White Walkers this time, since it’s going to be a long time before we see them again. Lest we forget that they are a real threat (which almost happens in the books until Hardhome, but even that was off page).

  647. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    He should have been able to sniff out deceit! Right? Riiiiight? [wink]

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    I got the impression he was more of a trophy than a hostage. An exotic pet.

  648. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    Tony,

    Are you doubting a White Walker’s parenting skills? I can’t believe we’ve gone as far as racism at this point -_-

  649. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    WIGHT POWER!

  650. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    If they’re really going into White Walker offpage but mentioned things, Hardhome will definitely happen, the White Walkers gather an army of nearly 100,000 wights and “dead things in the water”, they can make that huge

  651. Niamhy
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard: QUOTE

    I don’t think you understand how utterly terrifying the threat of rape is for a woman. I have many friends who have been sexually assaulted. I have been followed home by a man before. I walk home with my keys between my fingers. Even cat calls and street harrasment make me anxious. Angry, but anxious. To be raped is to be utterly violated in every way. It is, and I cannot stress this enough, HUGELY distressing to watch dipictions of rape. I couldn’t properly watch the rest of the episode of the scene at Crasters, I was too anxious. I’ve found that men generally don’t understand this and always say things along the lines of “but they show brutal murders! That’s much worse that rape!” One in 6 women will experience sexual assult/rape in her life. Rape is a much more real, ever present threat than being brutally murdered. I would like you to put your self in the place of a woman when making comments like that, and understand just why so many women get upset about the repeated sexual violence shown on game of thrones.

  652. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,
    And for those wondering how they could have caught Ghost…the same way they did Summer. In a trap.

    Boooo! PETA and I are officially filing a complaint regarding the mistreatment of direwolves in GoT.

  653. AM
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    AA,

    I’m guessing Roose Bolton sent Locke to find out the location of Bran and Rickon, since Theon mentioned they might have went to the Wall to find Jon Snow..? From there, maybe he has to kill them?

  654. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Back when 8 seasons was on the table I was really pushing for them to have Jon replace Cotter Pyke and attack Hardhome to save Tormund and his wildlings. [not really a spoiler?] But seven seasons means detours like this one are impossible and Jon will probably end where he does in ADWD. I think we will see a glimpse at it in season 5, quite possibly from Bran’s own POV, in a vision or a dream.

  655. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Well if we see Hardhome through Bran at the end of an episode, and we have Jon and Tormund about to head there before Jon’s demise (this is the Sullied thread right?) then when all chaos and genocide erupts at the Wall, we can go back to the White Walkers, who by that point are probably marching with a new army, but that’s all TWOW speculation

  656. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:

    Genocide at the wall? Please elaborate.

  657. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Niamhy,

    I find that experiential testimony a lot more informative than the general outcry and intellectual arguments that ensued last week. That was more direct, and I thank you for taking the time to write it.

  658. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Well Jon was the only thing keeping the Wildings and the Night’s Watch and Stannis’ men from killing eachother, and now that he’s been murdered, and the Wildings outnumber the watch 3:1, and many of the Wildlings had just agreed to go with Jon to kill Ramsay… mass, mass killings and chaos are inevitable

    edit: oh and Wun Wun just killed a few people, causing the Night’s Watchmen to draw their swords

  659. Tony
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    cosca,

    Ha! ;) Exactly what George wanted to avoid in his books (the deux et machina. Magic saving the day) I suppose it has to be though yeah since it would take at least a week to get there if you estimate distance / travel speed. (assuming the horse just keeps going as it doesnt need to sleep)

    Highly curious to see if George let’s it take place like this in the books. My guess: yes but not necessarily all the way over in the Lands of Always Winter.
    Seems like the illustrated book The Ice Dragon was as relevant as everyone thought!

    First time we were really spoiled. It’s not ‘Cersei wins her trail’ or ‘Margaery loses her head’ level of spoilers but still. I’ll just keep watching.

  660. Greenjones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m sure they’ll give their captors what-for next episode.

  661. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,
    Ok…it was the “genocide” that I was wondering about. Wun Wun’s shit will definitely hit the fan but I’m not totally down on the murder (and its effect) though. Don’t throw his warm body on the pyre just yet!

  662. A frog of logs
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    M,

    You are insane if you call that a filler episode.

    Jaime’s character development moments hit as hard as any plot whammy. I cheered and clapped at the screen for his scenes with Brienne.

  663. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    A frog of logs,

    In the world where “Oathkeeper” is filler, steak must be a kind of sausage.

  664. House Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    he’s definitely not gonna stay dead, since George has confirmed he’s writing his POV, the question is how, I’m guessing he’ll be inside Ghost until Melisandre does something to bring him back to his body

    there’s a theory that Melisandre will keep his body below the wall, since in the House of the Undying, Dany sees a blue rose from the ice at the bottom

  665. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Hey WW, can you tell the difference between feral pig and NW mutineer? ;) Still hoping for the ultimate guide for their northern trek and a hell of a lot more treacherous snow!

  666. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Tony: Ha! ;) Exactly what George wanted to avoid in his books (the deux et machina. Magic saving the day) I suppose it has to be though yeah since it would take at least a week to get there if you estimate distance / travel speed. (assuming the horse just keeps going as it doesnt need to sleep)

    I don’t have a problem with it. Yes, magic explains it in a sense, but these are the White Walkers we’re talking about. They’re magical beings! Also, notice the baby is only crying when it is put down (just like in real life). The white walker holds the baby during the trip on its horse, and it’s content. The other one picks it up, and it becomes contented again. So perhaps warmth, or something, I don’t know, I’m not sure (how it feeds the child, ok, that’s another story…)

  667. WompWomp
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Sorry, but you lost me at “ultimate guide.” There is something I’m not getting here.

  668. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    CH. There’s a scene in ADwD where he and Summer go hunting and they stumble across some mutineers and maybe a feral pig. What did they actually bring back for Bran and Co to eat?

    (your sausage-steak reference got me whimsical for CH)

  669. Sunfyre
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Niamhy: I don’t think you understand how utterly terrifying the threat of rape is for a woman. I have many friends who have been sexually assaulted. I have been followed home by a man before. I walk home with my keys between my fingers. Even cat calls and street harrasment make me anxious. Angry, but anxious. To be raped is to be utterly violated in every way. It is, and I cannot stress this enough, HUGELY distressing to watch dipictions of rape. I couldn’t properly watch the rest of the episode of the scene at Crasters, I was too anxious. I’ve found that men generally don’t understand this and always say things along the lines of “but they show brutal murders! That’s much worse that rape!” One in 6 women will experience sexual assult/rape in her life. Rape is a much more real, ever present threat than being brutally murdered. I would like you to put your self in the place of a woman when making comments like that, and understand just why so many women get upset about the repeated sexual violence shown on game of thrones.

    Thank you for this comment. You are totally right that sexual violence should never be depicted lightly or gratuitously for shock value. But to play devils advocate isn’t the role of art to provide a mirror for all aspects of life — our history, our dreams, life, death, love, pain… everything under the sun in terms of what it means to be human? Unfortunately our world is a violent place. And much of the history which inspired George Martin to create ASOIAF was even more violent. Therefore Westeros reflects that violence as it should.

    It might be painful to look into that mirror but I don’t believe art should be restricted in exploring those dark areas of the human experience. These types of scenes should be done advisedly, with thoughtfulness and good taste. We can debate whether or not the show does a good job of that in some or all of these scenes. I do believe there might be a law of diminishing returns with scenes like this. If the audience comes to expect them or becomes numb to them they lose their power. And then they do a disservice to the audience, the creators, the cast, HBO, everyone…

    George Martin felt free enough to write about difficult and painful material. Game of Thrones the television show should be able to do the same. Re:Craster’s – in this case it felt logical that a group of celibate criminals who had just murdered their lord commander and were totally cut off from civilization and societal norms would go down this route. And lets face it, the “societal norms” of Westeros seem to be even more open to violence against everyone (women, children, and men) than our own world. The only violence that seems totally frowned upon might be against the nobility.

    Hope I didn’t offend anyone with this post. Not sure there are any easy answers for an issue as sensitive as this.

  670. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Sunfyre: We can debate whether or not the show does a good job of that in some or all of these scenes. I do believe there might be a law of diminishing returns with scenes like this. If the audience comes to expect them or becomes numb to them they lose their power.

    I think you’ve hit it. The diminishing returns. The shots of the Craster wives sitting looking grim, with screams in the background, would have been enough to get the point across. This isn’t about the psychological damage to a particular character that would have made showing more detail a stronger choice – say, Dr. Melfi on the Sopranos. This is mostly background noise to show what depraved sickos these former Night’s Watch folk have become, so that very porn-like shot of one woman getting raped from behind was just really not necessary. It shouldn’t be titillating, basically. Disagree or agree with the choices made in the Jaime/Cersei scene, but it sure wasn’t titillating in the least.

    So yes, the show can ‘hold a mirror to society blah blah’ but it can do that without just giving in to show certain things that makes these background characters (like the whorehouse in Season 1) look like cheap goods.

  671. telobsidion
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    I’m good with the changes to this episode. So many book readers I know aren’t. I do think the show has had lots of adaptation issues in the past, and there are things to criticize, but I’m sick of the “OMG IT’S NOT A 1 to 1 ADAPTATION” complaints.

    I’m getting this from another forum. I haven’t read most of the comments here yet, so nobody think I’m talking about them.

  672. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone notice that the distant shot of the WW w/child on his dead horse travelling through the ice valley looks very similar to the preview shot of Theon on horseback heading toward Moat Cailin? I wonder if that Theon shot is in the next episode, since it is another MM-directed episode? I like those wide landscape shots with a single slow-moving figure.

  673. B
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Can someone please tell me hot to spoiler tag. It is not working for me. I want to share a theory on the Magic awakening and what I have been thinking on the Night King as well and some Dany Prophecy stuff but I dont want to spoil troll.

  674. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    Next Time on Game of Thrones:

    Jon Snow and the Night’s Watch launch their assault on Crasters’ Keep. Bran and Co. are rescued and Jojen Reed confirms R+L=J! Internet EXPLODES! BOOK PURISH RAAAAAAAAAGE.

    My God, that would be an absolutely classic follow up to the Night’s King and Lands of Always Winter bomb-drop this last episode, and a complete trolling session from McLaren.

  675. The Pointy End
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    The White Walkers do NOT perform blood magic most likely. Their thing must be ice-related. Kill them and they shatter, not bleed. So yes, much more to be revealed about WW in books/episodes to come. Having said that, I do not expect to see much more of the WW this season. Maybe Coldhands and/or that other encounter before Bran reaches his destination, but no more. Love the books, love the show, we all have to keep them separated in our heads. After all it seems hard to keep a show 100% to the books it came from. Go on any thread about True Blood or even The Walking Dead and you will realize they’ve gone a completely different way.

  676. Lorenzo
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:03 am | Permalink

    Pedro,

    Certain numbers and procedures seem to be important for magic powers to be unleashed in the ASOIAF world, as we have seen with Daenerys, WW etc. performing a number of rituals by now. Might the fact that the WW in the line-up in the last scene were 13 be of any importance? Would remind of other fantasy stories…

  677. jentario
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:06 am | Permalink

    Matt,

    I don’t think we should be so sure that IS the Night’s King. The person that wrote the recap shouldn’t know this (D&D and Bryan Cogman don’t do it, I assume).

  678. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    Greenjones,

    Exactly, Bran was controlling Summer and he was completely focused on the sound of the baby, not thinking about traps.

    Summer maybe, but Ghost??? o well…

    Regarding rape…if you were disturbed by Jaime&Cersei scene (after rewatch I don’t think it was rape, although I think Jaime would have done it regardless), don’t watch Irreversible by Gaspar Noé, with Monica Belluci and Vincent Cassel…or rather watch it to see how disturbing a realistic rape scene can be. It is crucial to the plot, but I never felt so bad in a theater in my life (well I lie, I think Michael Haneke “Funny Games” was worse). Bad and outraged, and you really empathize with the guys seeking revenge. I’m not a vengeful person and I’m againts the death penalty etc, but while watching that movie, wow…makes you feel things you thought you would not feel. And that ending…Time Destroys Everything indeed…or rather Valar Morghulis

  679. Asoiaf_Fan
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    jwal:
    Sansa Bird,

    I agree.I also understand that war is horrible and people run amok and all, and rape can be prevalent.But the show makes it like 1 in 10 men are either rapists, or will rape if given the chance.Unrealistic.Lazy storytelling.

    Are you for real?
    You really think than in our world during medieval times in a time of war less than 1 man out of 10 would rape their women’s ennemy given the opportunity ?
    Rape wasn’t even a word to describe that act, it simply was the spoils of war, and Westeros is supposed to be even worse than our own medieval world.

    But you’re right the producers are changing the amount of rape we would be supposed to see to set the atmosphere right : they cut more than half of them and Westeros looks like a kindergarden playground now.

    And you know that by keeping people from showing and intelligently discussing rape you are a bigger part of rape-culture than the producers of game of thrones who create endless debates between viewers about this very subject while never condonning or presenting it in a titillating way.

    How can you criticize something and help people see how fucked up our society has always been if you forbid people to think about those subjects by never adressing them?

  680. You-know-nothing
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    I haven’t read all the comments here, so I’m sorry if I repeat anyone else’s opinion. But I was amazed by that ending. I’m a book reader and loved it. My theory is, these White Walker leaders are cold equivalent of Melisandre. The White Priests in service to the Great Other! it was such a great scene and I loved it. What does everyone else think they were?

  681. Ape
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Men in this series fight, and are ‘born equals’. When they show a woman in the series, now matter where, there is a treath of rape or sexual assault, only because it is a woman. That is the difference in this story.
    Also, the way we look at rapescenes is very disturbing. Even the director doesn’t acknowledge the cersei and jaimee scene was rape. The rape scene of latest episdoe ws very graphic, and very unnecessary. It glorifies rape, -filmed as the male gaze – and thats troublesome because it is REALITY for the majority of women in this world. It’s TOO MUCH. NOT NECESSARY. The fact that I have to explain myself why I felt sick because of the latest rape scene (nr10000) proves exactly my point.
    It ‘reinforces’ #rapeculture. google the term if you don’t know what it means.

  682. Ape
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    It was rape, she said no. There is a definition for the word rape. And it is not something to argue about, because when a woman says no, and the man continues because he is fysically stronger, IT IS RAPE. That is what people mean by #rape culture. And that is the problem here.

  683. Shock Me
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Can I just say this? As much as I love the scene between Jaimie and Brienne, how about giving her a freaking clue about where to start looking for Sansa?

  684. Asoiaf_Fan
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Ape,

    You want to play with semantics ? Then at least do it according to the subject at hand :

    This is the definition of rape in our world during the middle ages :

    Early Middle Ages
    . It is very difficult to ascertain the law of rape before the end of the twelfth century.
    The legislation of the Anglo-Saxon kings is our near exclusive source.
    Unfortunately, these laws are difficult to interpret, and their relation to practice is often uncertain.
    The earliest codes seem to proscribe only
    abduction–seizure, marriage, and/or sex contrary to the will of a father or guardian-.

    source : http://lawweb.usc.edu/users/dklerman/PDFs/Klerman.%20Rape.pdf

    You can’t project modern sensitivities to judge past events where said events were viewed in a whole different manner at that time.
    It would be like saying (in a future where humankind has found a different system from capitalism) that we all are monsters because we value money more than human life, and we all do just by being part of our current system.

  685. Paul Meyer
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Holy shit! This is the first time that I can honestly say the show surprised me, being someone who’s read the books. I actually liked the changes due mostly to the fact that with the Bran storyline it seems that it could be setting up a Jon/Bran reunion which doesn’t happen in the books. This is something I really hope happens and I’m really excited about. Also the whole white walkers part was awesome, yes it was horrid but it seems that we’ve finally been introduced to the Nights King which I think’ll be a big part of the last 2 books. So kudos to Benioff and Weiss for putting that scene in to shock everyone even those of us who’ve read the books, if not even more.

  686. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Ape:
    Pau Soriano,

    It was rape, she said no. There is a definition for the word rape. And it is not something to argue about, because when a woman says no, and the man continues because he is fysically stronger, IT IS RAPE. That is what people mean by #rape culture. And that is the problem here.

    Have you seen “Irréversible” (2002)? What did you though about it?

    Well it’s a confusing scene because even Alex Graves said he meant to show it was consensual. To me it didn’t seem it was, but upon rewatch and with Grave’s words in my mind, and looking for what he said we should be looking (she started kissing Jamie, she kissed him back later on, she grabbed him with her legs, hold onto the table etc..) it looked more consensual to me.

    What is the truth about something, in this case, what is the truth about this rape?
    1-What really happened?
    2-What Jamie really wanted to do?
    3-What they wanted to show us happened?
    4-What it ended up looking that happened?

    As this is a work of fiction, questions number 1 and number 2 are invalid BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED. So between 3 and 4, what is the more truthful? Well the answer is NONE of them of course, because it never happened. For the tale though, for the story, what’s important is what they wanted to show us, because that is the truth in tht FICTIONAL reality. For show-Cersei and show-Jaime what happened is what Alex Graves wanted to show us happened, regardless if he succeded or not.

    Regarding number 4, even that truth is not absolute in itself, depends on the viewer; for you it was, for me it wasn’t etc. (even in my case I thought it was the first time, so not even that is set in stone) What can’t be is that the truth for Jamie and Cersei is dependant on my point of view. What counts is the point of view of the authors.

    And again, we can’t judge the truth of a make-believe scene because it’s NOT REAL. Imagine that they tell the 2 actors portraying the scene to play it in a way that one think it’s rape, and another thinks is not, and the other way around…there’s no inherent “truth” in the scene as the real truth is that there was no rape really, because they are actors pretending.

  687. Paul Meyer
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Ape,

    She was kissing him back at numerous points and getting into it. I’m not necessarily saying it was necessary but if you read Nikolai Coster Waldeau’s (aka Jaime) reaction to the scene he said yes and no that it was rape. You have to understand that he’s been through so much to get back to this person who he loves and now she’s obviously fucking with his head. I’m not condoning it but you’ve got to see how much grey there is to this matter. In the end I wouldn’t say it was rape, you may disagree as well as others but this is fucking GAME OF THRONES what do you expect, horrible shit happens in this story get over it.

  688. Valaquen
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Ape:
    Pau Soriano,

    It was rape, she said no. There is a definition for the word rape. And it is not something to argue about, because when a woman says no, and the man continues because he is fysically stronger, IT IS RAPE. That is what people mean by #rape culture. And that is the problem here.

    Doesn’t she say no in the books? I remember Jaime ploughing on regardless until she capitulated and went for it. Sounds horrible to me, I don’t know why folk think it was an okay thing to do even in AFFC.

  689. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Summer maybe, but Ghost

    Well, remember Ghost probably thought those men were Jon’s allies. Do you remember where Ghost was during the mutiny? I don’t. Maybe he was off hunting because they didn’t have enough food for the men much less a huge dire wolf. Or maybe Jon sent him out to scout around the Keep. Since Jon is not a full-on warg yet, I suspect he and Ghost don’t have an “open info pipeline” 24/7. So even when Jon knew they had rebelled (which he didn’t for a while I think, he was with the wildings right?), there was a very good chance Ghost didn’t either. A good trap can catch any wild or semi-wild animal…. Remember men will be able to catch the dragons too (speaking of which, that will be a similar theme coming up for Dany’s story line soon, the caging of “familiars”!)

    Edited to add: About the C/J sex scene, I suspect that more women were disturbed by it than men because we tend to be more sensitive to such things (naturally, because we’re the most common targets of such violence). And a lot of women have had negative experiences for which aspects of that scene could be a trigger. But ultimately, for me, it comes down to this. She said no, which in our modern context makes it a crime. But she had a lot of non-verbal yesses and in the context of their relationship and fictional medieval world, it probably would not have been a crime. Although I was uncomfortable with it personally, I think it worked for the story, for the characters and I’m okay with how it played out.

  690. Patchface
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    NEW prequel novella coming up in June! No, it’s not Dunk&Egg, it’s a new novella that takes place before the events of The princess and the queen.

    Now Game of Thrones will get another prequel, and this time it will tell the story that comes before all of that. Called The Rogue Prince, or, the King’s Brother, the story will go into the life of Viserys’ brother, Prince Daemon.

    Like The Princess and the Queen, this story will be part of a collection with other writers. It will be the last in the Rogue collection, which will include short stories from Scott Lynch, Connie Willis and many more. It is currently available for pre-order, but will officially be released on June 17, 2014.

    http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/game-of-thrones-to-get-another-prequel/

  691. JohnnySD
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Leslie:
      QUOTE  

    It would melt book purist’s brains if Jojen meets Jon and flat out states who his mother is. And it could happen because they have to address it at some point. I think though we may get Tower of Joy as it is rumored that Sean Bean does a cameo

  692. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    You-know-nothing,

    I was blown away by the ending too. My boyfriend, who isn’t a reader, was like ‘why are you so excited?’ I was clapping my hands like a kid and saying ‘it’s NEW and I don’t know what is going to happen!’ And that’s a very good thing. :)

    Okay, so to answer your question. I don’t think GRRM means to portray either the WW/Night King as evil/good or Melisandre and her Fire God as evil/good. I remember him in an interview refusing to label Melisandre as either. He said something like she just is who she is and she has an agenda.

    In the context of GRRM’s story, most viewers tend to define evil as any agenda that hurts humans or at least the characters that they care about–come to think of it, that’s how most people define it.*** But characters like Melisandre take a larger view….she is willing to hurt and kill a few humans in order to obey what she thinks is her god’s agenda. And she assumes that agenda is in the best long term interests of humans because it counterbalances the agenda of the death god, which she assumes is the destruction of life (GRRM confirmed he based her and that religion on Zoroatrianism). Melisandre very well could be wrong. And as Davos indicates many times, he’s seen lots of gods and the people that worship them. You can pick one or the other but ultimately there may be no right answer. People just make a choice as to which agenda they will follow according to whether it fits their best interests. Gotta love Davos very pragmatic thinking there. Stannis also reflects this thinking. Not being a true believer he follows Melisandre because it’s to his advantage and so far it has worked for him (plus she’s a very hot chick LOL).

    Now look at it from the perspective of the Faceless Men who seem to worship the death god. In the books they not only perceive death as something unwanted (e.g., assassination) they also see the other side of the coin that it sometimes can be a gift of mercy and a necessary part of the life cycle. You can’t have life without death, after all. So the death god has an agenda, to administer death to balance out life, in a sense.

    So from a plot stand point, if you want to guess where stuff is going, look at those gods’ agendas, insofar as we can suss that out. Also, look at the individual perspectives and motivations of those gods’ servants. Just because they set out to do their gods’ bidding, doesn’t mean they will. Melisandre could interpret her visions in the flames wrong. We already know (or at least I think we do that Stannis is not Azor Ahai even though she claims he is).

    What is the perspective of the other god servants? From the Night King’s/WW’s perspective, why wouldn’t they want to kill humans?! Craster, although he provided them with children to fill their ranks, was without a doubt an evil SOB. The fact that they don’t eat the babies, but they save them and take them in, may be an act of benevolence. Otherwise what would the babies’ fates have been? To freeze, starve, be eaten by wild animals or killed by their own father? Who wouldn’t despise humans after seeing them do such things to infants? Maybe they’ve judged humans too sinful, too violent, and/or too weak to have the right to live on their planet. Or maybe mankind has misjudged them? Maybe the stories passed down of them being evil is because he who wins history, writes history. Were the Romans all that ethically good? No. Did they write about the people they defeated as being savages, evil, unworthy? Yes. Were the people they defeated necessarily savages, evil and unworthy? No. Aren’t we all assuming that history has recorded things correctly?

    And the children of the forest, what would their perspective be? As representatives of nature, I would think they don’t like humans all that much either. Men chopped down their weirwood trees, stopped worshiping the old gods, have driven them into hiding, and destroyed a good bit of nature. We will be seeing them soon, I hope, so I guess we’ll find out more then.

    Ultimately, I think the point of these magical representatives of the gods is that they are simply tools of their gods’ will. They do their gods bidding, insofar as they can, and their gods are neither good nor evil in the way we tend to define such things. They simply have their agendas, which may or may not correspond to what humans want or need. Humans who choose to be their servants are not players so much as pawns in a larger game. Humans who choose not to be pawns, serve their own agendas. Most people are oblivious of even having the choice. Like the naive farmer they periodically pause to pray for help and worship and then go back to their lives oblivious of the larger forces swirling around and eventually over them. People like Melisandre are willing, knowing pawns who want to direct those events. Bran will become one soon too. But there are sacrifices and choices that have to be made after they choose to become a god’s pawn. Next season (or the one after that) if Melisandre brings Jon back to life after the stabbing but Bran ends up opposing Melisandre and all of her efforts, does he oppose Jon as well? Where are the good/evil lines drawn there?

    Basically we can’t draw lines and GRRM doesn’t want us to. He wants acknowledgement that it’s messy and full of gray. That his characters can only do the best they can with what they’ve got in front of them at the moment. And beyond the philosophical issues here, it opens up the possibilities for story telling and conflict that we wouldn’t see in a strictly “all good” versus “all evil” kind of story. In a gray world, the permutations are endless.

    ***I used to teach Ethics 101 at a university, so my definition of it is much more formal and based on benevolence, justice and autonomy. I WISH everyone was required to take an ethics course. The world might actually be a better place for it. But I digress…

  693. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    and though he hesitates, Jaime agrees he would break his oath and give her Sansa’s head if she demanded it

    I totally missed this. When I saw it the first time, I thought he simply didn’t answer and by doing so had refused. So did Jaime really agree to break his oath? And if so, does that mean he sent Brienne out to find Sansa so he could kill her or turn her over to Cersei? Or did he send Brienne out to find Sansa and keep her safe, meaning he lied to Cersei?

  694. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Ape,

    I don’t think anyone on here is disputing that it was rape in the modern, real-world sense of the word. Since we as viewers live in THIS modern, real-world, it would and should make us uncomfortable because it does fit our definition of a crime and certainly dysfunction. That’s understood, expected and intended on GRRM’s and D&D’s part.

    Was it rape in THAT fictional world though? There’s a good argument that it wasn’t but I don’t want to dwell on that. I think the argument over whether it was actually rape or not is important to many simply because it adds weight to the argument that the show is feeding into what is known as rape culture. Could that be an unintentional consequence? Yes. All shows that depict violence and particularly sexual violence risk feeding into and perpetuating our society’s obsession with violence. That doesn’t mean that they do…it means they are risking it. And intentions matter. The makers of Grand Theft Auto are seeking to titillate and don’t care if they feed into that horror if it makes them money. D&D and GRRM do not seek to do that IMHO. They are presenting a world and it’s characters as truthfully as possible and if that means showing such dysfunction, if it serves a purpose in the story, then they are going to do it. We don’t compare Hustler magazine with Nobokov’s “Lolita” so why are we doing it here?

    I don’t know if that makes sense but I understand where both sides are coming from. I just think it’s a mistake to:
    1. judge the entire show by one or two scenes
    2. take any scene out of context of that world and those people
    3. judge that situation from our real-world morality
    4. assume the intentions of the authors/writers are bad when evidence points to the contrary
    5. assess this form of art using different standards than we do other forms of art and literature we’ve seen/read in the past

  695. Josh
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    If they showed all the rape that is suggested to happen after war and even Ned stark himself talks about the rape after war, that would be on a monumental level of difference then what they have showed so far, Its impossible to challenge that there is more rape on the show then in the book because that just is not the case, There is suggestion of rape all throughout the book just because they do not go into detail about it does not mean it is not there. If they showed all the rape and things the mountain has done alone it trumps everything shown on screen so far ten to one. You guys are being irrational in your logic.

  696. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:

    I don’t know if that makes sense but I understand where both sides are coming from. I just think it’s a mistake to:

    1. judge the entire show by one or two scenes
    2. take any scene out of context of that world and those people
    3. judge that situation from our real-world morality
    4. assume the intentions of the authors/writers are bad when evidence points to the contrary
    5. assess this form of art using different standards than we do other forms of art and literature we’ve seen/read in the past

    That was refreshing to read. Along with the original NousWanderer response from last week, I am pasting this onto my wall of logic in my office.

  697. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    he’s definitely not gonna stay dead, since George has confirmed he’s writing his POV, the question is how, I’m guessing he’ll be inside Ghost until Melisandre does something to bring him back to his body

    there’s a theory that Melisandre will keep his body below the wall, since in the House of the Undying, Dany sees a blue rose from the ice at the bottom

    Yes! He should warg well and often. I think Bran/BR will help him as well.

  698. WildSeed
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    UnbowdUnbentedUnhodor:
    To the editors of the site or whoever is in charge: COULD WE PLS GET A JUMP TO BOTTOM BUTTON. Surely its not that hard to create. Im on my phone and it takes ages to get to the bottom!!!!

    A million plus in support ! Not just mobiles have been impacted by the loss of this feature.

  699. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont,

    Yes! He should warg well and often. I think Bran/BR will help him as well.

  700. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    thank you /awkward curtsy

  701. uvuv
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Sansa Bird,
    I feel the same way, Sansa Bird!

  702. Zack
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Yes. It is the most glaring missing feature at the moment.

  703. paul
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Niamhy: I don’t think you understand how utterly terrifying the threat of rape is for a woman. I have many friends who have been sexually assaulted. I have been followed home by a man before. I walk home with my keys between my fingers. Even cat calls and street harrasment make me anxious. Angry, but anxious. To be raped is to be utterly violated in every way. It is, and I cannot stress this enough, HUGELY distressing to watch dipictions of rape. I couldn’t properly watch the rest of the episode of the scene at Crasters, I was too anxious. I’ve found that men generally don’t understand this and always say things along the lines of “but they show brutal murders! That’s much worse that rape!” One in 6 women will experience sexual assult/rape in her life. Rape is a much more real, ever present threat than being brutally murdered. I would like you to put your self in the place of a woman when making comments like that, and understand just why so many women get upset about the repeated sexual violence shown on game of thrones.

    All true but I found it a bit strange there wasn’t any protestations about the woman being torn to pieces at the beginning of the same episode that kicked off the uproar,I think. to paraphrase a certain imp.”If you are watching to see modern day morality. you’ve come to the wrong place”

  704. Zack
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ,

    This is such a thoughtful take on a very important issue. I really appreciate that you wrote it. I don’t feel as annoyed with the scene having read that.

    What bothers me is the point you make about the characters not recognizing that as rape. Because it’s probably true and it just makes me think of when it was common practice for husbands to demand sex from wives when she didn’t want to, and justifications like “If it’s between a husband and wife it’s not rape.” That viewpoint is dying off rapidly but you can still find people today who would say that. I feel like when a TV show portrays that behavior as ‘okay’ it gives those people fuel, you know?

    But…you’re right. When the characters really wouldn’t have called that rape…because of a lack of enlightenment or feminism or whatever…I mean, you have to be able to feel free to depict that kind of a world if you’re creating fiction where themes are the lack of power afforded to women.

    So…I’m not so bothered I think. Thanks again.

  705. WildSeed
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    …never tire of projecting this wisdom, although it has been stated by many here, both recent and archived.

    Not every one takes the bait for what become sensationalized or hyped, either. It’s just that those posts get swallowed up in the tidal wave of oncoming comments. That is, if they care to stay and engage. Still, it’s important for fans to express their passion about the show and what fell flat, for them. When it gets to much for me, I respect their right but flee from being drowned in that undertow ( : Nonetheless, it remains a challenge for those with foreknowledge to easily adapt to the show runner’s vision for the show. For some, the production has little merit without the books, instead of appreciating a show influenced by the books. They are wholly separate mediums, both unique in their own way. Judging fairly, most of us here experienced a learning curve when it came to the screen version. I made a conscious decision to enjoy them both, for what passion each inspire, be there social or other modern day intrigues that arise from the discussion. Anyways, thanks for reiterating these points.

  706. WildSeed
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Patchface,

    Thanks for this. I’m a bit deflated about the D & E non news for the moment, but it’s worth the wait.
    I’m sure Mr George tells his wife everyday ” I’ve got to get this finished for my lovely fans, I won’t sleep until I do “. LOL! He’s working on it, my hope remains true. *>*

  707. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Zack,

    No problem! I’m glad it helped.

  708. Griffinsroost
    Posted May 1, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    Skye,

    Yea, I felt the same way. I really didn’t mind any changes up until this point.

    The first half of the episode I thought was brilliant. The transitions from characters seemed to flow effortlessly But once Jon revealed that he knew Bran was alive I sort of lost my shit. I’m not sure if it was because it happened off screen. Then Ghost in a cage makes absolutely no sense at all; why keep him alive? Bran at Craster’s? Fuck that. Then the cartoonish ending that looked exactly like every other fantasy movie ever made. I don’t know I’m clearly struggling with these changes.

  709. WidowMaker55
    Posted May 1, 2014 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    SPOILERS: I am very livid with the Bran arc!! Jon Snow currently has no idea that Bran is alive. For us Sullied, that is absurd!!!!! What purpose does that serve?? TV fans rooting for the Starks to reunite are going to be disappointed AGAIN!!! IT IS WORTHLESS! If they want to know all, WHERE IS RICKON STARK??? Does anyone think Direwolves can be caught?? But not killed?? As soon as Jon shows up, the Reeds, Hodor, and Bran are going to leave during the mayhem. Hopefully, COLDHANDS shows them the way to safety for the time being!

  710. Bean of Westeros
    Posted May 1, 2014 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    WHEW. My heart started pounding when I saw 713 comments, but I read every single damn one of them and enjoyed (almost) all of them. I hate that I’m so late commenting that this will probably not get read because I want to see if my Pollyanna-ish thoughts today resonate with anyone.

    I, too, get anxious and upset when GOT characters and events vary from the ASOIAF books. But let’s look at it this way. In the history of modern life, we all got to live in the decades in which very creative and smart people are getting pretty damn good at bringing amazing books to TV and the movies. The Hobbit, LOTR, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones. I remember seeing To Kill A Mockingbird after reading it and it was amazing, but that was probably the acting that pulled that off.

    Come on, hard core book purists! You have to admit they’re doing a fucking awesome job with probably some of the most complicated source material these people have ever seen. What to keep, what to remove, what to explain in a different way? How to do it technically? I would kill to sit in on one of their writing meetings, wouldn’t you? Even Peter Dinklage admitted he tried to read the books but put them down because they were too complicated. Which actually I wish I didn’t know because that’s not what Tyrion would have done! But I digress.

    The only thing as fun for me as every Sunday night (or the friggin day the next book comes out) is reading all your insightful observations of this show. So thank you for your intelligence and imagination! But when you get pissed off and feel like it’s not exactly what you wanted, just thank the gods, old and new, that it exists at all. :-)

    Having said that, keep the critique coming! LOL And to the man with the heart condition who wants to live to see the end of this season, I wish to you good Ser that you live to see every last season!!

  711. axia777
    Posted May 1, 2014 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    About Oathkeeper and the end scene with the White Walker and the baby. From a Sullied perspective:

    Is the Other at the end with the baby the Night King or the Great Other? If so then this is a MAJOR spoiler for book readers. I am super pissed off. I may stop watching the show completely if this is all true. If that was a spoiler from the books, HBO, D&D and the rest can get fucked. This is it.

    Nuff said.

  712. BobSF
    Posted May 3, 2014 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Polish,

    Well predicted.


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