Unsullied Recap, Game of Thrones Episode 404 – Oathkeeper
By Oz of Thrones on in Recap.
Tommen and Marg

Wrrrrowwwww.

Spoiler note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show here). We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand or afterwards, so please be respectful of your fellow fans. Thank you!

Oz of Thrones:  Welcome back for this week’s edition of the Unsullied recap, where the non-book readers attempt to delineate what we just witnessed and the book readers chuckle at our confusion and shock.

This week’s episode almost seemed like two totally different shows.  The first half gave us some heartfelt moments and the all-important reveal while the second half felt as if it were only a matter of time before a major character met their end.

And it totally worked, even as we learned that the White Walkers have something akin to a Board of Directors.  Where the hell do we start?

The truth is, I really don’t know.  The assassination reveal will most likely be the headline of the episode, but there were so many important aspects.  Hats off to Cogman… this was one of my favorites.

I typically do the recap by storyline and not necessarily by order of appearance.  But today I’m running through the ep. as it was seen for the most part.  Let’s do it.

Even though I have been somewhat impatient with Dany’s story, I actually thought it was nice to start out with her for a change.  I feel bad for Grey Worm getting up close and personal with lessons from Missandei and not having the parts to perform just in case a romantic situation between the two ever came to pass… you can look at the menu but you can’t eat.  That just sucks.  Or not.

The deal with the Unsullied taking weapons to the slaves was a nice change from what many of us thought would be another slave city getting blasted by dragons.  Speaking of, where are they?

Mhysa walks through the city and Selmy suggests that she have mercy, which she politely declines.  I haven’t known this series to just throw many meaningless tidbits like that in for nothing, so I wonder if there will be any repercussions for the decision to nail the masters (not that they didn’t deserve it).

Bronn continues his backhanded training with Jaime and asks him if he is going to stand up for his brother.  I sincerely hope we get more scenes with these two, but I also think that Jerome Flynn with anyone in a scene would be entertaining.  That guy is gold.

Jaime finally visits Tyrion thanks to some guilt from Bronn and admits that Cersei asked him to kill their brother.  This scene was a rare moment between the two as they actually interacted more like brothers than ever before.  I don’t remember Jaime actually conceding to anyone that Joffrey was his son.  Great scene.

Then there was a boat, and a Littlefinger, and the truth (although I’m skeptical of the words “truth” and “Littlefinger” in the same sentence).

Before even saying anything about it, Ozzette personally wanted to thank the show runners for not waiting until Episode 10 or beyond for the reveal.  I partially agree, but only because of the “Who Off’ed Joff” shirts I just had mass-produced.  They’re on clearance, BOGO, whatever.

On the third review of the wedding reception, I did notice that Olenna seemed to touch Sansa’s necklace and potentially take a stone off of it.  What didn’t make sense was how she would have gotten it in the cup.  Yes, Marg did put the cup on the table near Grandma Lemon Cakes, but it appeared that Olenna would have had to get up and walk a couple of steps to get it in, which seemingly would have been noticed by someone (unless of course she beer-ponged it in).

Regardless of the logistics, LF was heavily involved and apparently has switched his allegiance from the Lion to the Flower.  Ballsy, even for him.  But like he said, he wants everything.  And judging by the way he was touching Sansa, it may include her.

Littlefinger’s confession was confirmed by the conversation between Grandma and Marg in the garden as Lemon suggests that Marg make her move on Tommen before Cersei turns him against her.  The other reveal was that Olenna plans to leave the capital before the trial.  If Olenna does wisely exit as the scene suggested, I will miss the old bird.  You can’t squirt milk back up the udders.

Locke has arrived at the Wall and has already filled out his recruiting paperwork while (shocker) Alliser still hates Jon Snow.  Later, Jon is granted permission to go to Craster’s as Alliser hopes the mutineers will take care of him.  Jon gets more volunteers than Alliser apparently wanted, but one of them was Locke.  All Locke wants is Bran, and now Bran is at the Keep.  And nothing good ever happens at the Keep.

Drunk Cersei is drunk again and asks Jaime if he would bring her Sansa’s head.  She is also pissed that he takes pity on Tyrion and wants Tommen heavily guarded at all times (but oddly does not seem all that upset about being raped). Jaime most likely comes to the conclusion that he will never please DC and sends Pod and Brienne to find Sansa, only the goal is to get her to safety.  Maybe Jaime loves Brienne too.  Ozzette teared up.  She wanted Brienne to get the final rose.

Meanwhile, Marg sneaks in to see Tommen and lays the foundation (but not the kid).  I had seen the name “Ser Pounce” before, but did not realize that it was the name of Tommen’s feline.  Either way, after Marg meets the cat, she gets the puppy-dog eyes from Tommen.  Mission accomplished.

And off to Craster’s we go, where the scourge of humanity seems to congregate and treat women like shit.  After Craster’s last child is left as a gift, Bran and the Band are drawn to the Keep where they are caught and Hodor is tortured (which pissed me off to no end… pick on someone your own size, assholes).  Jojen looked sick the entire time and collapses as Bran reveals his identity to Karl.  The entire set-up at Craster’s with Bran in place and Jon on his way looks like a train wreck.  Nothing good ever happens at the Keep.

And then the mysterious ending.  The gift is delivered and immediately turned into a baby White Walker by what looked like Darth Maul after a bath in Clorox.  More on this in the “Final Thoughts”.

Episode 404 Personal Awards

Favorite Scene:  Jaime and Tyrion, followed by Jaime and Brienne (odd, after Jaime should have won the Jackass award last week).
Favorite Quote #1:  “That was me knocking your ass to the dirt with your own hand.” Bronn

Favorite Quote #2:   “The Kingslayer brothers.  You like it?  I like it.” Tyrion

WTF was That? Award:  Darth White

Jackass Award:  Alliser is always a candidate, but this one goes to Karl (*Burn Gorman fans throwing tomatoes at Oz).  When you drink wine from the skull of the Old Bear and can successfully torment Rast, this accolade is yours to keep.

Final Thoughts:  As mentioned above, I appreciate the assassination reveal and that the Unsullied were not tortured all season with the “whodunit” and “why” questions looming.  There are plenty of other stories to concentrate on.  I’m also glad to see that Jaime looks like he will be standing up for his brother even if it’s because Cersei is treating him like “just another King’s guard”.  Strange how the show is going back and forth with his character… last week he rapes his sister; this week he has a heart.  I think I understand it, but I wonder if this was the show’s real intention.

The White Walker Bureau of Baby Affairs throws another kink in the whole story.  Now instead of being viewed as a bunch of walking dead savage killers, it now appears as if there is a brain working behind the army.  If the message here was “we should all take these Things more serious”, then consider it a success.  It has our attention.

That’s it for me today Ladies and Sers!  What were your favorite quotes?  Scenes?

Were you shocked by Lemon Cakes?  Littlefinger? Darth White? Ser Pounce?

Likes? Dislikes? Grumblings?  Sound off…. Everyone is welcome.

BUT NO SPOILERS HERE!  NO HINTS! NO BOOK RELATED DISCUSSION! 

A man can be followed in the birdverse now, so if the impulse strikes you, I can be found @ozofthrones.

I will be back next weekend for Looking Forward Episode 405 (Lysa in the previews! #breastfeedingboysunite).  Until then, have a great week, hide the wine from Cersei, and may there always be peace in your realm. –Oz

“Unbowed.  Unbent.  Unsullied.”

PLEASE BE MINDFUL OF THE UNSULLIED… Do not post spoilers in this comment thread!


149 Comments

  1. Lady
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Stannis!

  2. Magnar of Thenn
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Honor!

  3. Cheese Souffle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    We are all Unsullied now.

  4. Mike Lane
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Olenna Tyrell (Grandma) stuck the poison in when everyone’s attention was on the doves coming out of the pie. Or so I would imagine.

  5. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Which one of the new Valaryan swords did Jaime give to Brienne? She named it “OathKeeper”, but I don’t know if it was his or Joffrey’s. Did they ever pick a name for Joff’s sword at the wedding? That whole bit between Jaime and Brienne shocked me given the supposed value of the swords. Glad we got to see two of the dire wolves, sad to see one got hurt and the other is penned up. Where is Arya’s dire wolf????

  6. Ser Davos Seaworth
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    sadly i think meera might be raped next episode (probably by Karl), and it might be a hat-trick of episodes which include rape… oh the feminists aren’t going to like that.

  7. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Great writing Oz.. love reading these!

    This was by far a top episode in my books.
    The scenes at the keep had me at the edge of my seat, I yelled once, and I stood up when they got captured. I was freaking out.
    It seems too good to be true that we may see a stark reunion. I have a really bad feeling about this. UNLESS locke somehow manages to steal Bran away before Jon notices.

    Cersei, I think, has now taken the reigns in the “most hated character” list of mine since the passing of her son. She is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!
    I hope she does not harm Margery once she finds out shes canoodling her baby. I fear for her life as well.

    Jamie has proved himself a changed man… and the fact that Cersei had no issues with what happened last week shows me they didnt intend it too be a rape. I don’t know.

    Dany is the $HIT!!!!!! love her

    And well, LF and Olenna… if this is in fact what it was, then I was right all along about her involvement. I want to know how she got it in his cup. Will we ever find out?

    I have no words for the ending. I was shocked. I thought they were eating them!
    This show is killing me, I LOVE LOVE LOVE everything about it.

  8. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    Its just a show. They should get over it.

    Edit: I am female

  9. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    davy,

    Look, this is completely the wrong place to post such a thing. Take it to the other post(s), please.

  10. Andy Gavin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    All the best swords have names, and so it is with this episode. This isn’t at first glance a flashy episode full of big events, but it is a pivotal one in which changes set in motion by recent events take clear new turns. As always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  11. Guymon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Reynardd the Fox,

    I believe we saw Joffrey name his sword ‘Widow’s Wail’ during the wedding day breakfast just before he hacked up Tyrion’s book, which would imply Jaime was giving Brienne his own sword.

  12. wizardeyes
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Reynardd the Fox,

    It was his own – the one given to him by Tywin. Joffrey’s is called Widow’s Wail and has now been passed down to Tommen.

  13. Littlebird
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Amazing Oz, I´m glad that finally you will see Lady Arryn the next episode =)

  14. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Oz, I thought you’d be more giddy at Lysa in the previews. I am disappoint.

  15. Lady Mychelle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Jaime did give Brienne his own sword

  16. Matt
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully, the Facebook recap will include the line, “Mrs. Tyrell, are you trying to seduce me?”

  17. Pentos
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Dany is so badass I love her!

  18. Kay
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    This is the first time I watched every moment of the scenes at the Wall and Beyond – usually I find them a tad boring in parts. The last “being” had a very “Laufey” look to him, and their place looked so like Jotunheim! I immediately thought, it would be pretty horrible for humans if Midgard was converted to a Jotunheim-like land!

    I loved the shot of Daenerys standing under the Targaryen flag with the dragon motif. But where is Drogon? Eating cattle and growing bigger? I also loved the Tyrion and Jaime scene. Jaime is so much nicer in scenes with his younger sibling.

    I am puzzled by the logistics of how Olenna managed to slip the poison in. But it’s good they cleared up that mystery; by not drawing this mystery out for many episodes, it indicates that it is not as important as many other events in the future.

  19. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    The Jamie Brienne Scene was awesome.

    Ugh I cannot stop thinking about how we may lose yet another loved character. I dont know who or why or what…. But after the Joffrey death, fans are probably going to be disappointed soon. IM SCARED
    UGH!!!!!!!!!

  20. lady sansa
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth:
    sadly i think meera might be raped next episode (probably by Karl), and it might be a hat-trick of episodes which include rape… oh the feminists aren’t going to like that.

    Gosensgo:
    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    Its just a show. They should get over it.

    Edit: I am female

    I really don’t see why people on here look down on westeros for being a cesspool, if this site is no better =/

  21. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Oh don’t worry… the Looking Forward post this coming weekend will be Lysa Gone Wild.

  22. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa,

    People pick on things when its just a show.

  23. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:10 pm | Permalink
  24. Mopiiii
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Favorite quote : Bronn ” What are you waiting for ? A Kiss ?!! “

  25. wizardeyes
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Do you watch the next week previews Oz? There’s something in the one for next week I think you’ll be very excited by…

    I thought this was a great episode despite the fact it was lacking some of my favourites (Tywin, Oberyn, Roose, Stannis, Davos). I like how they’re using Jaime to tie together alot of the other King’s Landing plot points. He was the common factor in most the KL scenes this week.
    Jaime & Cersei
    Jaime & Bronn
    Jaime & Tyrion
    Jaime & Brienne

    I loved the Tommen, Margaery scene. It was just the right mix of sweet and sinister. And Ser Pounce!

    I also liked how tense and dark they made the stuff at Craster’s Keep. Karl is quickly becoming one of my most hated characters (how dare he drink from Mormont’s skull!?!?!?!) – Burn Gorman is fucking fantastic.

    As good as this episode was – I think the next one will be better. The pieces have been laid out – lets see where they start to move.

  26. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Pickypoo,

    We really don’t welcome these comparisons with the books here. It’s not necessarily spoilery, but don’t do it. Just don’t. If you feel the need to put spoiler tags on something, don’t post it in the first place.

    The show, including characterisations, stand apart, and that’s what we discuss here.

  27. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    “Now instead of being viewed as a bunch of walking dead savage killers, it now appears as if there is a brain working behind the army.”

    I think that was made crystal clear in the episode where Mance’s army reaches the Fist of the First Men.

    Walking dead savage killers do not create perfect spirals on the ground, much less are they referred to as “artists” by their enemies.

    That scene made it perfectly clear, IMO, that the Walkers are intelligent beings, who aren’t killing/converting humans into Wights indiscriminately and w/o reason, but that they have some sort of plan in place.

  28. lady sansa
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo:
    lady sansa,

    People pick on things when its just a show.

    The show doesn’t exist in a vacuum, thou. And after that scene aired, I’ve seen every disgusting rape apology that I know from real life used for Jaime. She deserved it for denying him sex or it wasn’t rape at all, cause they are in a relationship. And people think it’s okay to think this way. And depicting rape on TV like that and then not following up on it (no comeuppance for Jaime, not even acknowledging that rape happened) encourages that way of thinking.

  29. TT
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Hah :) Darth White eh :). I like that name!

    Overall, I liked this episode very much. The reveal was good… in the sense that revealing in ep3 would be too soon… ep4 is rather quick but then why hold off on it? It might clutter other storylines, and revealing it later would maybe disconnect from the events.

    My favorite scenes: Jaime vs Bronn – love the sparring, both physically and verbally. Followed by Jaime vs Tyrion – more sparring :). And then Jaime vs Brienne… for the finishing touch. Like the chivalry with a touch of love. I bet a lot of women will put that as their best scene, and will probably want more of this..

    Not completely satisfied with the taking of Meereen. Not that it should have covered 1/4 of an episode, it just felt too easy and not fleshed out enough. On the other hand, I’m not dissatisfied either. I think the story on the other side of the pond isn’t really central to the interesting stuff happening in Westeros…. We just need a sense that Dany+dragons+former-slave armies+conquered capital will be a threat coming seasons.

    Loved the part on the Wall, Locke plays his role real well… His excuse for joing the brothers was a little weak but then Jon is too wet behind the ears to notice that he’s being played. Strong performances all around… that guy that plays (Acting Cmdr) Allison does sooo well playing a dang bastard :-).

    Thanks as always Oz.

  30. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa,

    You are over analyzing and overthinking it

    Just enjoy the show! Or don’t watch if those scenes bother you!

    OH and the director said it was not meant to be a rape scene.. possibly why they didnt discuss it this episode.

  31. mellowjohn
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    “…not having the parts to perform just in case a romantic situation between the two ever came to pass… you can look at the menu but you can’t eat.”

    oh, yes he can.

  32. lady sansa
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo:
    lady sansa,

    You are over analyzing and overthinking it

    Just enjoy the show! Or don’t watch if those scenes bother you!

    Saying that a popular character on a popular TV show getting away with rape and still being depicted as a sympathetic character after that contributes to people thinking that rape is excusable is overthinking? Okay then, whatever.

  33. Andy Smith
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Loved this weeks episode , the final couple of minutes blew my mind , also love the fact that spoilers for book readers are starting to show up , soon they will have to join the ranks of the unsullied muhahahah

  34. Bekah
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    It should be “Who Offed Joff” or “Who Off’d Joff”. There’s no need for an apostrophe if you keep the E.

    I think Littlefinger and Olenna had the whole thing very carefully choreographed. The dwarf spectacle would prompt Joffrey to torment his uncle (they couldn’t have predicted the cupbearer thing, but Joffrey’s delight in torture is predictable), making Tyrion the immediate suspect, and the pie would draw everyone’s eyes away so Olenna could pop the poison in the king’s cup. She was close enough she could just stand up as if to applaud, reach out, and drop it in.

  35. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa,

    my God.

    I don’t think it was meant as a rape.
    DIDNT THE DIRECTOR Say that?!?!?

  36. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo,

    Take this discussion elsewhere, please. It’s not productive, definitely not under this post.

  37. intothevoid
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    (but oddly does not seem all that upset about being raped)

    Because it’s normal in Westeros! And because Robert did it to her for 15 years!

    Jesus fucking christ. Don’t you people understand that you can’t place your modern values on historical/fantastical cultures? I mean, how hard is that to accept? Your ethics HAVE NO PLACE in a medieval world.

  38. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar,

    My bad. It was discussed plentiful last week!
    I think it’s useless as well!
    Thanks!

  39. Nagga´s Kin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Ok, so now we have confirmation that it was indeed the QoT who poisoned Joffrey. Re-watching the event in ep2, I also don´t understand exactly how she pulled it off. Margaery had placed Joffrey’s cup immediately behind her on the high table, several feet from where the QoT was sitting. Even with everyone else distracted by the pie with the doves, there was a kingsguard standing right next to the QoT at that moment. Surely he would have noticed if she had walked over to her granddaughter and, we didn´t get any indication of that, either. I figured perhaps the she had handed Marg something when she passed her before sitting down earlier in the scene, but the younger woman’s disbelief at the wily old crone’s quasi-admission of murder suggested that she had not been involved.

    The other unresolved issue is why the QoT decided to assassinate Joffrey after the scene in the Sept but before the bedding ceremony, right under the nose of so many witnesses. As plans go, this one was incredible complicated and hence, risky. Unless the timing had some legal advantage for Marg that we don’t know about yet, it would surely have been much easier to dispatch the little tyrant at some point prior to the wedding.

    Cersei had already demanded that Sansa be apprehended, but this week she insisted that Jaime bring her the girl’s head. The dialogue suggested this would be something of a consolation prize since he had refused to murder Tyrion for her. Given last week’s awful scene in the Sept, it would have been logical for her to shame Jaime into an act of contrition instead.

    Otherwise, I could have done without yet more gratuitous raping at Craster’s Keep. Seeing those poor women injured from beatings and hearing them regurgitate their late father’s/husband’s/cult leader’s dogma was quite enough to get the point across.

  40. Dementia
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar:
    Pickypoo,

    We really don’t welcome these comparisons with the books here. It’s not necessarily spoilery, but don’t do it. Just don’t. If you feel the need to put spoiler tags on something, don’t post it in the first place.

    The show, including characterisations, stand apart, and that’s what we discuss here.

    What is the point of having spoiler tags then? If you don’t want anyone to USE them, why would you have them? I really don’t quite understand. Book readers can shed a little more information on the show (how many Valyrian steel weapons are around, what’s up with Ser Pounce?) WITHOUT “spoiling” a plot. As Pickypoo did, you let everyone know what you’ll be elucidating and black it out. Let the readers decide if they want some info that hasn’t been covered in the show.

    If you really don’t want any single, tiny bit of book information…I’d really suggest removing the spoiler tags altogether and ask Oz to rephrase his request from “We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from posting spoilers in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand or afterwards, so please be respectful of your fellow fans.” to something more like “We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from mentioning anything that is in the book that was not covered in the show. Please refrain from posting spoilers…”

    Your forum, your rules. But I think some unsullied would, on occasion, like some additional information not covered in the show but don’t want to risk looking it up because then they would probably get spoiled.

  41. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo,

    Regardless of what the director meant – and he’s given another interview where he does refer to it as rape – what matters is what aired. And what aired was a rape. Cersei said no.

    Loved your recap as usual, Oz. Although I do have to argue the point about Grey Worm – just because he can’t have penetrative sex doesn’t mean he can’t be intimate with someone. I think those were stellar scenes, btw.

    Beautiful transitions in this episode, too. From Tyrion saying “She’s no killer… yet” over to Sansa and LF, and then from LF’s “my friends grow strong” to Olenna and Margaery. And then Lady Olenna plucking at Margaery’s necklace as she talks about Joffrey’s death…

  42. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle,

    This. It is almost all new material now. It is the unsullied’s turn to chuckle at our confusion and shock.

    I imagine the unsullied have a much better understanding now of the show than book readers do, because they aren’t trying to keep two separate sets of characterizations and plotlines straight in their heads.

    So, seriously, are the ‘Who Offed Joff?’ shirts really available? because I would buy one.

  43. Joh
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle,

    This. It is almost all new material now. It is the unsullied’s turn to chuckle at our confusion and shock.

    I imagine the unsullied have a much better understanding now of the show than book readers do, because they aren’t trying to keep two separate sets of characterizations and plotlines straight in their heads.

    So, seriously, are the ‘Who Offed Joff?’ shirts really available?

    I would buy one.

  44. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Nagga´s Kin,

    I really don’t know how she could have pulled off the poison! I’m so curious!
    I think she waited till after the wedding so that she can at least be considered his widow… But not having consummated the marriage makes it a weaker marriage. I don’t know! So many questions !

  45. Lyanna_targaryen
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    I laughed out loud when Bronn pimpslapped Jaime with his own golden prosthetic.

    I got verklempt when Jaime and Brienne said goodbye.

    If Tommen hadn’t had his first nighttime sheet mess by that point, I think it’s safe to say that milestone has been passed. Ser Pounce!

    Also, here is me being nit picky – I feel like a newborn babe left in the cold in nothing but a light blanket for hours wouldn’t have survived to be taken to the mystery ice circle and the WW board of directors. But, I suppose we have to suspend a bit of reality in this show :)

    Great episode. Looking forward to Lysa “Crazypants” Arryn next week!

  46. zod
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Joh: I imagine the unsullied have a much better understanding now of the show than book readers do, because they aren’t trying to keep two separate sets of characterizations and plotlines straight in their heads.

    I’m sorry, but this is a very stupid thing to say.

  47. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin,

    Good point, and maybe I wasn’t clear enough in that statement.

    The way I understand it is this:
    There are the Wights and the White Walkers. The Wights are the dead people (soldiers) and the Walkers that we’ve been exposed to before are similar to field generals.

    The Walker last night that touched the baby looked somewhat different than the Walkers we have seen and the impression I got was that whoever “they” are, it’s a step up from the field generals. Granted, it’s a big assumption, but that is how it came across to me.

    I did not mean to imply that the Walkers we have previously seen are stupid, and that is on me.

  48. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Dementia,

    Spoiler tags are there to be used in other posts, not in this one. I didn’t mean to sound harsh or unduly berate you (if it came out that way, I am sorry). It’s a slippery slope kind of warning to everyone. Any book-related discussion is unwelcome and always has been, as it may inadvertently reveal things yet to come; even highlighting what information already seen in he show is important can damage someone’s fresh experience. It’s the only type of posts where we’re really super strict in moderation. You will understand that.

    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion, also on the meta-level. Oz can weigh in on the matter as well.

  49. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    intothevoid: Because it’s normal in Westeros! And because Robert did it to her for 15 years!

    Jesus fucking christ. Don’t you people understand that you can’t place your modern values on historical/fantastical cultures? I mean, how hard is that to accept? Your ethics HAVE NO PLACE in a medieval world.

    Calm down

  50. Soopa Doop
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    That final scene just blew the door wide open on the possibilities of what’s in store for the future. Glad they paid off one of the images in Bran’s vision with the White Walker’s reflection.

    Now for theories on why the White Walkers held that ritual. I wonder if they came across Craster and his young boys and turned them into Walkers to see if they can both be a Walker and have their strengths and the human part helps deal with Obsidian. I’m assuming the Walker that attacked Sam was “pure” and created from ice, which is why Obsidian shattered it easily. The Walker with the baby had armor, so I’m assuming it may be a grown Walker that was transformed from a baby itself and intelligent enough to know to protect itself when going south to The Keep after what happened to the last Walker.

    The First Men were able to hold off the White Walkers seasons ago. Now, they’re creating hybrids to succeed at what they weren’t able to do last time. Bran can warg into humans as we saw with Hodor, can Bran’s destiny north be to warg into one of those hybrids? Ok, enough, my mind is working overtime on these theories. Let’s just hope Bran, Summer, Jon, and Ghost reunite.

  51. Mod
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo,

    Season 1 Sansa should go watch Disney movies instead of GoT

    Only Sansa post-Ned post-Almostbeingrapedtwice should comment here.

    Seriously, there are no unicorns in GoT, and if GRRM adds them in book 6, they’ll be Undead Unicorns.

  52. Amanda M
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Dementia,

    You take the words right out of my mouth! I’ve had some very unpleasant and rude interactions from the mods on here (and had comments deleted) all because I tried to clarify something innocent that has zero bearing on any future plot of the show. I’m afraid of even typing the word “book” around here sometimes, for fear of a mod-attack haha.

    I was unsullied myself during seasons one and two, and ended up googling lots of things for clarification purposes, and ended up unwittingly spoiled. Wouldn’t getting clarification from your friendly neighborhood sullied be better than risk actual spoilers? Oh well…

    Anyway, great recap, Oz! Glad they are doing Jaime justice again, and I also got teary during Jaime and Brienne’s farewell, so Ozette was not alone! I knew it was gonna be a great scene, but I hate having my favorite ship be separated, so I was dreading it haha.

    I thought of you when I saw Lysa in the trailer too… I’m sure no matter what happens next week, you’ll love it because you’ll get to see your girl again… Hahahaha. Thank you for a great recap, as always!

  53. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    intothevoid,

    And I tend to agree with you. It doesn’t take away from the fact that it was neither mentioned or acknowledged and that is more of what I was referring to.

    It’s all good, void!

  54. Brena
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Reynardd the Fox,

    Jaime gave Brienne his own sword.
    You can sort of see it’s the same. Sorry about the poor pictures, but notice the details on the guard.

    Joffrey’s sword (Widow Maker) : no swirlies but there are red stones on the pommel
    http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/game-of-thrones/thumb/e/e9/Game_of_thrones_season_4_joffrey_hearteater.png/468px-Game_of_thrones_season_4_joffrey_hearteater.png

    Jaime’s sword: swirlies
    https://www.vancouverobserver.com/sites/vancouverobserver.com/files/resize/images/article/body/recycled-500×339.jpg

    The sword Jaime gives Brienne: swirlies and no stones on the pommel
    http://static.tumblr.com/47c026755235a388cd655d1dd295c37a/kjnofwq/6rQmzogms/tumblr_static_j_b_sword_pic_2.png

  55. Caravaggio
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    and the book readers chuckle at our confusion and shock.

    Yeah… about that…

  56. Streetad
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    It was mentioned back in the S2 finale that Margery was clear to marry Joffrey as her marriage to Renly was never consummated. So if the plan was for her to marry Tommen all along that would explain the timing of the murder…

  57. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    Thanks for your reply, good sir. Much appreciated.

    I can see how a lot of folk could’ve been led to believe that the Walkers are just as mindless and dead as their minions, the Wights. That’s why I decided to mention the “always the artists” scene, so that we all remember how the WW are intelligent beings with magical powers, as opposed to mere mindless, ice-zombie killers.

    As for their power structure, I must admit that as a sullied, I didn’t have that clear till last night’s episode. But now I view their “organization” exactly like you do.

    It’ll be very interesting to see where this whole plot leads, since it’s unchartered waters for us sullied now, as well, as you can plainly see in the comments posted by most fellow readers here.

    ETA: I also agree with your assumption about higher ups in the WW hierarchy. Or at least a leader, “Darth White”, as you aptly dubbed him lol.

  58. Hislocal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    I think Olenna had to poison Joffrey at the very public wedding so that there would be no shortage of suspects. If she does it at some point later, then she’d be one of only a few people in the room with him.

  59. Amanda M
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Random question for anyone (sullied or unsullied). I feel like it makes no sense for the Nights Watch mutineers to be keeping Ghost alive. If they captured Jon’s direwolf, why not just kill it? That was one of the only weird, plothole-ish thing I noticed this episode, and was wondering what others thought.

  60. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    I don’t even remember now ghost got there!?

  61. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    JRR Tzolkin,

    My pleasure, good Ser. And if we are seeing the “organization” in the same way, it does give satisfaction that I am not completely off base.

    In addition, I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that the Sullied don’t know about these new Walkers. It seems like a such a major deal as to where the future of this series is going for the show to just add it. But I guess they want to shock you guys too.

  62. Mariya Martell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Bekah:
    It should be “Who Offed Joff” or “Who Off’d Joff”. There’s no need for an apostrophe if you keep the E.

    I think Littlefinger and Olenna had the whole thing very carefully choreographed. The dwarf spectacle would prompt Joffrey to torment his uncle (they couldn’t have predicted the cupbearer thing, but Joffrey’s delight in torture is predictable), making Tyrion the immediate suspect,and the pie would draw everyone’s eyes away so Olenna could pop the poison in the king’s cup. She was close enough she could just stand up as if to applaud, reach out, and drop it in.

    My problem with that is, Margaery clearly wasn’t in on the plan, but she is the one to put the cup down near Olenna. She could just as easily not have put the cup down, or put it somewhere else. A lot was left to chance and that doesn’t sit well with me.

  63. gia
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Ser Davos Seaworth,

    do you think women should be treated equally to men? would you like to see injustices against women (in real life) changed for the better? then you’re one of those feminists

  64. Laura Stone
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa,

    HIgh five and signed, too. It’s always shocking when people think it’s weird that someone might not be comfortable (at best) with huge levels of rape anywhere. So sensitive, ladies! I mean, it’s not like dudes have to worry about it, so why should we? =/

    And we GET IT. It’s bad for women in this fantasy world. (It’s bad for women in the real world, too!) But do we have to have all of the visuals at Craster’s? The sound is enough, the sight of black eyes and downtrodden spirits is enough. The physical act is just gratuitous for no purpose other than to have it there for the few tittilated by such things, imo.

    (Countdown to someone being disgusting towards my comment in three…two…)

  65. mal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo,

    I’m a potato

  66. noodle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa:
    I really don’t see why people on here look down on westeros for being a cesspool, if this site is no better =/

    it’s not. I want to say I agree with all you’ve said so far on the issue of rape and the really disgusting responses people have made, here and elsewhere. I personally have no problem with the show regarding it though, Jaime’s character is pretty accurate to me. those are what rapists look and act like–familiar and close, not always strangers with no faces in dark alleys. I don’t think of him as a sympathetic character and never have. him going unpunished, thinking he’d done nothing wrong, is perfectly reflective of reality, and so is Cersei’s response (or lack thereof). she knows there’s no justice coming for her so why bother. that goes both ways–justice for the things that have been inflicted on her, and the things she has inflicted on others. I would say it’s not the show’s responsibility to ‘punish’ rapists or hold back from depicting rape but the audience’s responsibility to think about what we watch.

  67. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Lyanna_targaryen:
    I laughed out loud when Bronn pimpslapped Jaime with his own golden prosthetic.

    I got verklempt when Jaime and Brienne said goodbye.

    If Tommen hadn’t had his first nighttime sheet mess by that point, I think it’s safe to say that milestone has been passed. Ser Pounce!

    Also, here is me being nit picky – I feel like a newborn babe left in the cold in nothing but a light blanket for hours wouldn’t have survived to be taken to the mystery ice circle and the WW board of directors. But, I suppose we have to suspend a bit of reality in this show :)

    Great episode. Looking forward to Lysa “Crazypants” Arryn next week!

    I thought the same thing about the baby not surviving that long out in the cold – but rationalized it as the White Walker using some kind of magic to shelter it and/or make it resistant to the cold. Perhaps the transformation had already begun in some small way?

    And it was a bit squicky, the way Margaery was “grooming” Tommen just like pedophiles do with their intended targets.

  68. B
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    TT,

    I agree about Mereen. That is a place where all the voilence would have served a purpose. It would have shown more how the slaves feel about their empowerment and the years of slavery. It would have shown us more about the slavers. That is where it is needed not at Crasters. They put all the violence in places like last Season with Theon and in this ep north of the wall but not in Meereen? That is weird. I also agree with you about… ah shit. I forgot what you said in the rest of your post, but I agreed.

  69. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones:
    intothevoid,

    And I tend to agree with you.It doesn’t take away from the fact that it was neither mentioned or acknowledged and that is more of what I was referring to.

    It’s all good, void!

    You shouldn’t agree with him Oz as his argument is total bullshit. The show gets praised because of how human and alive the characters feel despite being in this setting. Being based on a different time period does not make the show immune to valid criticism. You can’t use a pathetic argument like “this is how things were!” to try to deflect blame for the show. Torture was also prevelant during medieval times so does that mean we should feel ok with how Theon is being treated? Should we root for Ramsay because he’s just playing his part in the setting? Does the fact that rape is prevelant in a society make it less damaging emotionally and physically to the victim? D&D are human and they make mistakes. Game of Thrones is not a perfect show by any means. The many recappers criticism of the rape not being addresses is a very valid one

  70. noodle
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    that bothered me too, and Jon knowing about Bran being alive and beyond the Wall. are they setting up a meet or something?

  71. JRR Tzolkin
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    You’re absolutely right; it should be “good SER” not sir lol! My bad.

    I won’t lie to you; I had pictured the WW’s power structure/stronghold in my mind several times (and I suspected that they turned the human babes into little WW’s) but I had no confirmation of this till last night’s ep., like I said before.

    More than anything, though, I think I speak for most sullied when I say that I had NO idea that the show would give us such a great and detailed tour of the WW’s HQ before the books ever did! Big shocker, indeed.

    See, I’ve always had this theory that the point behind this whole thing may be a confrontation between the Walkers and the dragons, with a few surviving and unlucky humans armed with obsidian weapons caught right in the middle, as an epic final battle for survival and domination of GOT’s world.

    I think I’m far from being the only one who has thought of this, but the funny thing’s that I’ve kept saying this for years, and nobody around me seems to take my theory seriously lol.

    People around me (sullied and unsullied both) keep saying that “X” or “Z” will end up winning the Iron Throne in the end, overlooking this supernatural (and extremely important) little detail, just like most of the characters in the show do.

    So, to me, it was not only awesome to get such a good inside look at the world of the WW far beyond the Wall, but very satisfying too. Oh, and if this is the end game indeed, well, I guess I’ve just spoiled it for us all, sullied and unsullied both lol!

  72. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    If I was a 12 year old boy and Natatlie Dormer came in my room at night I would at least get my first motorboat before she left. Fuck what everyone says Tommen is living every guys dream right now.

  73. GeekFurious
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo:
    Jamie has proved himself a changed man… and the fact that Cersei had no issues with what happened last week shows me they didnt intend it too be a rape. I don’t know.

    It is impressive to me how many people refuse to utilize their brains on this one. As you note, the fact that Cersei makes no mention of it, and more importantly, that the writers made no mention of it in any way at all, means it was exactly what many suggested… AN EDITING PROBLEM.

    And if people still, after that, decide to harp on him “raping Cersei”, then fuck ‘em. They are making an effort to have a problem with something that didn’t happen. And why would they do that? It’s like someone revealing to you that 2+2 does not = 5 and you still demanding that 4 is now ruined forever because they mistakenly pushed the wrong key once.

  74. JamesL
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    The book story is not the same as the show story. Details and history that book readers want to give nonreaders may not ever be a part of the show. If it hasn’t been brought up yet in the show than it is not part of the show story. It is best to ban all book comments or else the comments section gets filled with “helpful” book readers trying to flaunt their knowledge of the story to nonreaders who usually are not even asking for extra information from the books.

  75. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    The problem here Geekfurious is also the confusion caused by the different parties involved in the episode. Alex Graves is on the record of saying that the scene started off forceful but ended up consensual only to backtrack in another interview and call it a rape. David Beinoff essentially calls it a rape in his inside the episode. Brian Cogman refuses to comment on that scene on twitter. We don’t know for sure what really happened as the creative minds don’t offer a clear answer

  76. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    this!

  77. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    And the “editing problem” is really the only reason I mentioned it. I had no intention of prompting an argument of right or wrongs depicted in medieval fantasy televisions shows. It was more of an issue of acknowledgement.

    Should the viewers act like it didn’t happen? The characters did.

  78. Laura Stone
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    noodle,

    “I would say it’s not the show’s responsibility to ‘punish’ rapists or hold back from depicting rape but the audience’s responsibility to think about what we watch.”

    That’s a really good point, actually. I think what’s so disconcerting for me (and has me lurking on these boards more than commenting) is because of the responses/comments from people who seem to be glee-filled over how rapey the show is, ready to shut anyone down who is bothered by it. But it’s another time! It’s another place! And yet here we are in this time and in this place and it happens just as we’re seeing it on screen.

    The key words in your comment are “audience’s responsibility.” There seems to be a significant # of people who don’t feel that there should be ANY responsibility, that’s my one quibble.

    And I’m incredibly grateful for the people who are having reasonable, thoughtful conversations about this. That’s what good television should do – elevate discourse.

  79. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    I was confused by Ghost in a cage as well. I like the idea of them all meeting up at Carl’s Keep. But, I’d of rather Summer(and Hodor as well) had met Ghost on the fringes and mulled over getting Bran & Company’s fat out of the fire until the cavalry(Jon’s squad) arrived.

  80. GeekFurious
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones:
    GeekFurious,

    And the “editing problem” is really the only reason I mentioned it. I had no intention of prompting an argument of right or wrongs depicted in medieval fantasy televisions shows.It was more of an issue of acknowledgement.

    Should the viewers act like it didn’t happen?The characters did.

    Yes. The viewers should act like it didn’t happen. Because it didn’t. We thought we saw something we didn’t see. It’s pretty clear now. So why keep pretending like what our lying eyes saw actually happened? It’s unreasonable. It’s even childish to refuse to accept reality in the face of logic.

  81. Blinded Dragon
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa: The show doesn’t exist in a vacuum, thou. And after that scene aired, I’ve seen every disgusting rape apology that I know from real life used for Jaime. She deserved it for denying him sex or it wasn’t rape at all, cause they are in a relationship. And people think it’s okay to think this way. And depicting rape on TV like that and then not following up on it (no comeuppance for Jaime, not even acknowledging that rape happened) encourages that way of thinking.

    When I took Women’s Self Defense as a college freshman, I was enlightened that rape isn’t actually about lust or sex. If it was, 80-year-old women wouldn’t be raped, nor would small children. (So none of the typical rape apologies are ever valid.)

    Rape is about power, specifically overpowering someone else and bending them to your will. Our instructor went further to talk about “little rape” and “big rape”. Big rape is the easily recognizable overpowering of one person by another succeeding in engaging in penetrative sex (whether the victim is another adult of either gender, or even a child). Little rape was something that even you are overlooking: ANY time one person treats another as an object, whether it’s sexual harrassment, racial or ethnic slurs, socioeconomic or religious disrespect, or treating someone in a service job as though they are less than human. Tywin has made every effort to raise his children to be that sort of rapist: if you aren’t from a long-standing noble Family, you’re not worthy of respect as a human being (his sub-human category includes bastards, peasants, and dwarves). Cersei’s attempt to insult Ellaria Sand is an example of how well she’s learned that lesson.

    In Littlefinger’s speech about Players and Pieces in “the game”, all the Players are “rapists” who use the Pieces as tools. Cersei has been using sex as a tool for years. “Do something [wrong] for me and I’ll let you sleep with me (getting Lancel to poison Robert).” When she denied RObert sex in an effort to control him, he found it elsewhere. When she commanded Jaime to kill Tyrion, then started kissing him passionately, only to pull back because he hadn’t yet agreed to kill Tyrion for her, she lost that round of power. Jaime loves her and was not going to let her use sex as a tool with him, but by “raping” her instead of letting her manipulate (rape?) him, he shifted from a Piece to a Player. By the end of that episode, it was obvious Jaime is no longer letting his father and sister push him around as though he were a piece on a chessboard.

    I doubt there will be “comeuppance” for Jaime, at least in the short run. The Players in Westeros use the Pieces in abominable ways; blatantly inserting lessons on contemporary values would undermine the overall narrative about the battle of good vs. evil.

  82. Critical Geek
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Dementia,

    Because not all posts are unsullied posts. There are other posts where spoiler tags are still appropriate. Here, just don’t bother posting if it would need them.

  83. GeekFurious
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    GeekFurious,

    The problem here Geekfurious is also the confusion caused by the different parties involved in the episode. Alex Graves is on the record of saying that the scene started off forceful but ended up consensual only to backtrack in another interview and call it a rape. David Beinoff essentially calls it a rape in his inside the episode. Brian Cogman refuses to comment on that scene on twitter. We don’t know for sure what really happened as the creative minds don’t offer a clear answer

    There is no confusion if you use your critical thinking skills.

    Graves said it turned consensual. That’s it. Done. No one else said it was rape. They just beat around the bush of answering it because someone along the line edited the scene down (I suspect it was Graves, which explains why none of the producers are throwing him under the bus).

    As for the often mentioned “Graves referred to it as rape in an interview”, that’s a misrepresentation. His first interview was with Sepinwall where he CLEARLY STATED it was consensual. Subsequent interviewers then referred to the “rape”. So when he was asked about it in followup interviews he said that Jaime came in and began “raping” Cersei, but then he closed that discussion out with saying it turned consensual. The fact that a bunch of articles left out that end part is about sites wanting to mislead you. You’ve been effectively bullshitted into hitting their site 500 times an hour.

  84. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    LOL. Exactly.

  85. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: There is no confusion if you use your critical thinking skills.

    Graves said it turned consensual. That’s it. Done. No one else said it was rape. They just beat around the bush of answering it because someone along the line edited the scene down (I suspect it was Graves, which explains why none of the producers are throwing him under the bus).

    As for the often mentioned “Graves referred to it as rape in an interview”, that’s a misrepresentation. His first interview was with Sepinwall where he CLEARLY STATED it was consensual. Subsequent interviewers then referred to the “rape”. So when he was asked about it in followup interviews he said that Jaime came in and began “raping” Cersei, but then he closed that discussion out with saying it turned consensual. The fact that a bunch of articles left out that end part is about sites wanting to mislead you. You’ve been effectively bullshitted into hitting their site 500 times an hour.

    I can buy your argument that D&D didn’t want to throw Graves under the bus. However, D&D do have the final creative say and are heavily involved in post production. I’m inclined to think that they gave the final Ok on the Jamie/Cersei scene. they are also to blame if that scene was indeed lost in translation. You may argue that they didn’t have time to do re-shoots when it was all said and done but I would think they would do re-shoots if they felt it was necessary. In this case they didn’t feel it was necessary which I believe you and I might agree that was the wrong call to make.

  86. TOIVA
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Very nice episode and a very fitting nickname you found, Oz. Darth White is basically what I though after seeing the … eh, being? But I like the bearded (lower ranks?) ones better.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the White walkers actually relied on human children for ‘reproduction’. We haven’t seen any females after all.

    The revelation of Olenna and Littlefinger (I still have reservations, maybe we are being played and Tywin, for instance, could have been part of the plot with or without their knowledge) came much sooner than I expected and the murder now seems just too obvious to me…

    I’m wondering what body part Locke is taking next, and out of who’s body (actually expected the one he was sparring with loosing a hand). Jon Snow is in trouble. What outraged me the most up north was Karl and his cup. Jeor Mormont skull?! How dare he?

    Glad Pod didn’t disappear of the show yet (thought last episode was the last we see him), but we might loose Brienne along with him for a very long time now. At least she got proper equipment and squire.

    Tommen is such a lucky kid now, I believe the only ones who are after him are Stannis and his grim domain. I can’t see anyone in the capital willingly hurting the boy, as most can just control him. In other words, he is a rare person appearing safe for the moment (Ok, appearing safe spells doom, right? Dammit!). And I so envy him the late night visits…

    After the Cersei scene, it seems I was right and neither her nor Jaime considered their little adventure rape (though, yes, by today’s standards it would most likely qualify as such). But they don’t really live happily ever after. Cersei really seems loosing sense of reality in wine and it gets difficult to really understand what she’s angry about (Joffrey, still planned wedding with Loras, loosing Tommen to Tywin and/or Margaery, Jaime without hand, Jaime defying her, Tyrion still alive,…).

    The one part that was a bit disappointing was Meereen. It looked like it took one night to an unorganised bunch of slaves with only weapons brought by some Unsullied to take the greatest slave city. That’s just a very large stretch. First: the way Grey Worm and co. got in. Noone defends an entry point anyone can open from the outside? Second: even with all swords Daenerys has at her disposal, she couldn’t outfit all the slaves, and certainly not in one night. Would just a small amount of armed untrained slaves suffice to ignite a wholescale rebellion so fast and so easily? Third: After what the masters saw last episode, wouldn’t they fear exactly this outcome and prepare somehow? Their slaves outnumber them, yes. But they’re still a fourth of Meereen’s whole population, they couldn’t be dealt with in one night.
    The absence of dragons make sense though. Nothing like huge flying beasts attacking whoever they like to prove Daenerys brings prosperity and justice. (I guess they’ve been sent to an expensive boarding school in order to learn to behave.)
    And Dany delivering her justice and posing as a goddess herself (with the lovely banner over the place’s previous deity) is clearly a setup for big trouble down the road.

    EDIT:: Let me add one personnal request: More Margaery please! Margaery for THE Quenn forever.

  87. clegane
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    lady sansa,

    seriously, watch the “rape” scene without sound. Cersei is holding Jaime like a lover regardless of what she says. that was no rape. go watch Irreversible to see a rape.

  88. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    clegane,

    Most people watch game of thrones with the sound on…

    That’s the problem. The combination of the writing and editing made the viewers see something that the creators of the show did not intend us to see (I think so atleast. there has been no clear confirmation from the show runners about what they were trying to show. We have to use critical thinking skills as Geekfurious stated which just shows you how much they effed it up)

  89. Lyanna Mormont
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: There is no confusion if you use your critical thinking skills.

    Graves said it turned consensual. That’s it. Done. No one else said it was rape. They just beat around the bush of answering it because someone along the line edited the scene down (I suspect it was Graves, which explains why none of the producers are throwing him under the bus).

    As for the often mentioned “Graves referred to it as rape in an interview”, that’s a misrepresentation. His first interview was with Sepinwall where he CLEARLY STATED it was consensual. Subsequent interviewers then referred to the “rape”. So when he was asked about it in followup interviews he said that Jaime came in and began “raping” Cersei, but then he closed that discussion out with saying it turned consensual. The fact that a bunch of articles left out that end part is about sites wanting to mislead you. You’ve been effectively bullshitted into hitting their site 500 times an hour.

    Except that what Graves said in an article means nothing compared to what aired on the show. What aired on the show was a rape. Cersei said no. Rape does not “become consensual” – if one of the parties says no, and the other keeps going, that’s rape. Once again, Cersei said no. That is the ONLY thing that matters.

  90. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Oz of Thrones,

    YESSSSSSSSSSS

  91. TT
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    B:
    TT,

    [...] I also agree with you about… ah shit. I forgot what you said in the rest of your post, but I agreed.

    You made me laugh out loud with this one :-D.

    Anyway, If you “quote” or “reply”, you will get the HTML a-tag at the top of your post. Copy the value in the href-attribute (#comment-394101 was the href to my comment you replied to). Then paste it after the link in your address-bar. It will move this page to that particular comment. You could do that in a seperate window eg. Maybe easiest is to just “quote” instead of “reply”, and delete the text once you’ve made your reply.

    Not a maester, but happy to help ;-)

  92. Gosensgo
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    omggg this rape convo is killing the vibe!

    Soooooooooooo am i jumping the gun by saying we MAY SEE a stark reunion soon?!?!?! omggg i would love that… but GRRM scares me… he dangles something good infront of your face and snatches it away before you know it

    oh and LOCKE scares me too.. this is not good.

  93. Veltigar
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Lyanna Mormont: Except that what Graves said in an article means nothing compared to what aired on the show. What aired on the show was a rape. Cersei said no. Rape does not “become consensual” – if one of the parties says no, and the other keeps going, that’s rape. Once again, Cersei said no. That is the ONLY thing that matters.

    Yes, death of the author and all that. I feel for the Unsullied here, because a lot of them are now stuck with Jaime-the-raper as headcanon. It’s still strange that no one of the crew saw that that scene would be a potential catastrophe. It’s a bit like the Mhysa scene last year, only without a good excuse.

    I do think that Alliser will warm up to Jon. He seemed surprised and a bit impressed that Lord Snow was able to get so many men to follow him. And Noah Taylor was brilliant. I seriously hope that he sticks around for a fair while longer.

    Johnny: There’s only three things in this world that a ‘real man’ needs: a cup of coffee, casting Mads Mikkelsen as Euron and a good smoke.

  94. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Three scenarios if you please. When Margary went to Tommen’s bedside she was trying to seduce Tommen to get what she wanted(a queen’s crown). They haven’t had sex yet. It is all part of a seduction. These characters have had very little history together. When she has sex with Tommen and uses duress to get what she wants, what is it called? When Cersei took Lancel to bed she was trying to get what she wanted(Robert murdered). They had sex. They had somewhat more of a history together than Margary and Tommen. What was her sex with Lancel and the use of duress to get what she wanted afterward called? When Cersei asked Jaime to murder Tyrion for her. She began a seduction to get him to say yes. They have an enormous history together. Jaime was intent on getting what he wanted. Jaime took Cersei forcefully to get what he wanted. He had not agreed to kill Tyrion for her. She seemed to be searching for the right time and place to have sex with him to get what she wanted. What would have been Cersei’s use of sex under duress with Jaime to get what she wanted be called? Other than casual sex, is all sex outside of love with the use of duress rape,or just that done by physical force? And would you say that of all five of these characters that the men were the only ones that entertained, would have or had real thoughts of love for their female counterparts?

  95. spacechampion
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    I think perhaps Olenna stuck the poison crystal to the inside of the wine jug, so that the next time someone poured from it, it would wash into the cup and quickly dissolve. Surely she had plenty of access to the wine jug. All she’d have to do then is make sure Margaery, Mace or Loras didn’t pour one for themselves at the wrong time. Instead Tyrion unintentionally poisoned the cup himself.

  96. Alex Graves does not know what he is doing
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Why can’t people understand that Alex Graves, the director of the previous episode, completely screwed up the Jaime/Cersei scene?
    It was supposed to be consensual, and that’s the reason why they didn’t talk about this in episode 404. It didn’t even cross the writers’ minds that a director could fuck up this badly and just destroy a character with a single scene. So my advice is, just ignore it. It’s just a fuck-up. Jaime’s many things, but he’s not a rapist.
    I’m a book reader, but I’m not a purist. I loved almost every scene this season, except for the ‘rape’ scene, which was probably the worst in the entire series. I even liked the White Walker part from 404, even though it’s a spoiler for book readers and the guy looked like a Stargate reject. It was cool.

  97. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    Alex Graves does not know what he is doing,

    The problem is that presumably D&D should have caught that mistake in the post prediction process. That means that they sanctioned it and so this can’t all be pinned on Graves. My theory is that D&D didn’t want to ask HBO for more money to do a re-shoot as they already begged for more money to shoot episode 9 of this season. Also I’m guessing that they couldn’t completely edit out the scene as there are episode minute requirements that they are held accountable for

  98. Alex Graves does not know what he is doing
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I thought about it, but I didn’t want to even mention that D&D screwed up something because from what I’ve seen people are really tired of book readers complaining about them. Many of them would just dismiss my post as a purist’s ramblings (and probably they still will). But yeah, they surely had to have seen this, and there’s no way they thought it looked consensual.

  99. Shmurb
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I dunno, thinking about it, does this scene really, REALLY ruin Jaime and Cersei’s characters enough to warrant a re-shoot? Jaime can be a good guy in some areas and a total piece of shit in others. I think a lot of people want to view all rapists as evil, beyond redemption villains because it makes the concept easier to think about as “other” or “beyond us”. Truth is, most rapes occur at the hands of husbands, friends, people who know each other, and so on. Decent people can do terrible, terrible things, and I don’t find it as hard to reconcile as Oz or some other people seem to. Still an absolutely awful thing to have to watch, but not show or character destroying, I’d say.

    Also disagree with Oz, Cersei seemed rather disturbed throughout her scene to me.

    Loved the stuff beyond the wall, such a dark, dready atmosphere that really linked all the Bran/Jon/Mutineer/Walker stuff together well. Last scene with the WWs was crazy-go-nuts, I don’t even know what to think about where that’s going.

  100. Mewcat
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Ser Pounce!!!! Prrrrr….Oh, I was in Heaven with the new Cat-cast member. I hope we see lots of this King’s Landing feline. He was the purrrfect companion to sweet Tommen. Such a great touch to hear that cat Purring so loudly! Cat-Lovers Unite!!!
    Otherwise, surprising show in many ways, and for the first time ever, I was feeling UNSULLIED like all you great people on this board as the surprising events happened. Also looking forward to Lysa and more Arya. Glad to see Brienne & Podrick together…they make a curious team.
    GREAT RECAP Oz, as usual.

  101. Mewcat
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Lord Of Lite,

    Very interesting take on this situation. I agree with you and my opinion is that Cersei has/or used to have feelings/love for Jaime, but she can’t get over his new ‘hand’, plus the fact she deludedly accuses him of abandoning her. Come on, he was captured. So when she’s at a real low point looking at her son’s dead body (yay!), she falls back into ‘leaning’ on Jaime as her protector, and even initiates kissing him. In the middle of that, sure, she wanted him to do something for her, but when she comes back to reality, she realizes she’s not going to give Jaime something for nothing, and she pulls away. He pulls her back and things go further and further. To me, Cersei was only really protesting because of the place they were in, not so much that she didn’t want to have sex with him. Just not in the Sept next to her son’s body. I remember in the first season, I think their second love-making scene, they were having sex while arguing with each other. I think this is normal for them. And, they are both crazy people who’ve both done awful things. Jaime is starting to get a conscience, but Cersei is going downhill fast.

  102. daroe23
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Nagga´s Kin,

    King’s Landing is rife with spies from every faction. Both Olenna and Littlefinger know this. The God’s Wood is one of the few places where one might go for some actual privacy, I mean, come on, even if someone were religious they would have no need to pray to the Old Gods in this Southron city. No one ever goes to the Gods Wood. It was at the Gods Wood that Petyr was able to smuggle the poison to Olenna by Sansa through Dontos with no one the wiser.

    As far a public spectacle goes: pointing a(little)finger at Tyrion will put Sansa’s claim to Winterfell in play.

  103. Jon Snow Knows Nothing
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    I’ve recently discovered this site and love the unsullied recaps & having a place to discuss possible theories of the story!

    I’m still pondering what Littlefinger & Olenna’s angle is – is it simply just to have power in King’s Landing or is there something bigger coming?

    And Dany, I love her but the same ole freeing slave cities is a bit worn out, get across the sea already & have your dragons fire up some stuff!

    Here’s the pieces of the puzzle that I can’t wait to see how they fit in …. Lysa Arryn, Gendry, the dragons & White Walkers. Oh and Brann, I think he’s going to be key somewhere but I have no idea how.

  104. Cersei Wildfire
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    TT,

    I thought Locke’s “reason” for being at the wall was hilarious! “Rather than lose a hand”!? C’mon!

  105. mal
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Cersei Wildfire:
    TT,

    I thought Locke’s “reason” for being at the wall was hilarious! “Rather than lose a hand”!? C’mon!

    Maybe this was on purpose. Is Locke really a smart enough guy to come up with a better lie? But it kinda makes Jon a little slow; I mean, how did he become such a good fighter if he was just a family man who steals food for his family or whatever the lie was?

  106. Ilovejam
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Gosensgo,

    She is not over-analyzing it. Ever heard of rape culture? I agree that the non-dealing with the Jaime-Cercei scene is inexcusable and supports a culture of victim blaming when it comes to rape.

  107. clegane
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    But you could also call this kind of thing a layered character portrait, where a character talks one way and acts another. I understand most viewers just want pure entertainment and not an arthouse movie from GoT, perhaps this attempt was really out of place in this environment, idk, but I liked the intention.

  108. Alex Graves does not know what he is doing
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Ilovejam,
    clegane,

    It wasn’t supposed to be rape (although Jaime did take advantage of a grieving woman). Here’s what the episode’s director said:
    What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual.
    Source: http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

    It’s an enormous screw-up. And if it wasn’t, it wouldn’t make sense that they didn’t address it in the following episode. I tried to clarify it, but I guess not many people read the newest comments. I’m out then. Please continue with the pointless debate.

  109. Turncloak
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    Alex Graves does not know what he is doing,

    Ok yea I see. I too don’t like being labeled as a book purist. I like changes to the source material when they are done right.

  110. clegane
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Alex Graves does not know what he is doing,

    if your definition of rape is “no means no”, then yes it was a rape, but that is as much the screenplay’s fault as it’s the director’s.

    you may go as far as to blame Lena for not conveying enough ambivalence.

    but we could also blame the viewer for not paying attention to the characters’ non-verbal communication and demanding modern viewpoints from a quasi-historical environment.

  111. jentario
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Hi Oz. You are right about the show’s intentions. Interviews seem to imply that the Cersei rape scene was meant to have become consensual by the end. Clearly, it didn’t seem that way. Which is a shame, since that created the whole controversy and made Jamie look really bad. Oh well, let’s move on…

    This episode was awesome. The last 15 minutes had us all surprised, I assure you :)

  112. Golly Snow Stark
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Thank you Oz great recap
    Favorite scenes:
    Grey worm & Missandel
    Brorn b*tch slapping Jamie with his own hand
    Jaime’s gifts to Brienne & Brienne turning around looking at Jaime was she rode away. Great acting by Jaime and Brienne their eyes said it all.

    Favorite quote: The Kingslayer brothers

    Rants:
    Torture of Hodor
    Fate of Gilly’s baby

    I am afraid for Therion, Sam, Gilly, Sansa, Hodor and Ghost.

    I have to keep telling myself “if I think this has a happy ending, I’m not paying attention

  113. Awful Awful Knight
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    -"I feel bad for Grey Worm … you can look at the menu but you can’t eat."
    Funny you should put it that way. Seems to me that’s one of the few things he CAN do.

    -"Nothing good ever happens at the Keep"
    Not true. It’s where Sam met Gilly!

    -"Marg sneaks in to see Tommen and lays the foundation (but not the kid)"
    Still, a total "seduction" none the less. Speaks sweetly, tells him he’s not like his brother, shows interest in his interests, shows affection for his favorite pet…who's he going to side with, the hot older woman who secretly visits his bed at night or Mean Mommy? If Tywin brokers a new deal with the Tyrell's, Tommen will say yes before Cersei has time to react, much less object.

  114. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Awful Awful Knight: -”I feel bad for Grey Worm … you can look at the menu but you can’t eat.”
    Funny you should put it that way. Seems to me that’s one of the few things he CAN do.

    lol my thoughts exactly.

  115. Aphrodite
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Mopiiii,

    Yes that is my favorite line from the episode too!

  116. Oz of Thrones
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Awful Awful Knight,

    Touché on the eating, as well as Sam and Gilly. But especially on the eating. :)

    Ours is the Fury,

    I’m appalled. ;)

  117. Aphrodite
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    Aphrodite,

    Sorry I meant to quote the line that was my fave was Bronn’s “What are you waiting for a kiss?”

    It looks like I am in the minority but I simply don’t care about the white walkers. IMO there is so much going on in the fight for the Iron Throne this seems like an unnecessary diversion. I would rather see the focus elsewhere and there are soooo many storylines where they could focus. But I guess it must be in the books and everyone else seems to like this storyline….

    The “rape” was last week. I wish everyone would either move past it or post in the discussion for last week’s episode.

  118. outdoorcats
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Amanda M,

    I think Karl just thought of Ghost as an amusement. Rast said something like, “Why don’t we just kill it?” so that was clearly on everyone’s minds, but for whatever sadistic reason (maybe it gave him a feeling of power) Karl wanted it alive, and he’s running things.

  119. outdoorcats
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Laura Stone,

    It’s not like there’s no male-on-male rape in the show though, remember Theon. Although he was saved at the last second, that scene was quite graphic.

    In some ways I agree with you, the way some users dismiss complaints about rape is cavalier at best. However, from the showrunners’ perspective, I understand why they chose to make that scene so graphic. The scene is meant to be repulsive. I’m 100% sure it wasn’t put in there for titillation.

    This is a brutal show that depicts the worst (as well as some of the best) of human nature. I don’t recommend it to everyone because it’s filled with upsetting material like this. But I consider it to be a journey worth taking because of the glimmers of hope it offers. For some of us viewers the darkest stuff in this show is all too familiar, merely a reflection of the world we live in now, but rather than just depicting these things and saying ‘**** happens, tune in next week,’ [coughcoughBoardwalkEmpirecough] it’s filled with humane insights and a staggering amount of empathy.

    My two cents. Peace.

  120. mal
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    Some thoughts:

    Is there consensus that Bran will warg into Hodor and kicks some ass? This isn’t spoilers because Bran is never captured and Hodor never chained.

    Re-watched that Tommen/Margaery scene and I think the kid playing Tommen is really good.Looks so innocent. I don’t think he got horny or anything just found her intriguing, considering she’s probably the most normal, interesting person he’s met in King’s Landing.

    How is Locke such a good fighter considering he was just a family man? caught stealing? These are questions Jon should ask, before it’s too late (and it probably is)

    I hope there’s only 1 more Tyrion in jail scene, any more and I’ll be annoyed. Get to the trial already!

    So happy to see Ghost and Summer!

  121. clegane
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 3:27 am | Permalink

    I think Karl keeps the wolf alive to have a bargaining chip when the Night Watch comes after him. that’s why he keeps Bran too.
    Locke’s excuse was embarrassingly poor. I was waiting for Jon to ask, “and who’s feeding your children now?”
    anyway probably he does not believe him, he just knows that most people there are lying scum and doesn’t really care what crime he committed if he seemingly doesn’t want to admit to it.

  122. Lloga
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Great recap!

    I whole-heartedly agree with you, don’t drag that “whodunnit”, well done, show. They gave the right amount of hints for people to figure it out in the very episode where it happened, now move on.

    We got the usual Villian Speech by Littlefinger, but did you notice how pleased Littlefinger was when Sansa started to question him? He even started to outright tutor her.

    About Jaime:
    I have to say I don’t get all the fuss about it. Jaime always was a man driven by two things:
    - a perverted notion of honour
    - a perverted notion of love

    All his actions come from this, and I don’t really see why that would have changed recently. Jaime is perfectly fine (trying to) kill people who (involuntarily) stand between him and his goals, he is perfectly fine with forcing matters when he wants to. And he’s perfectly fine raping his sister on one day and sending off Brienne to her hero’s quest on the next.

    (I’m not interested too much about what even the show-makers think about what they TRIED to display. But I’m glad they didn’t make a scene where Jaime raped Cersei until she liked it. Because, seriously, that’s worse than a scene where Jaime just raped Cersei.)

  123. Lloga
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 4:38 am | Permalink

    noodle: it’s not. I want to say I agree with all you’ve said so far on the issue of rape and the really disgusting responses people have made, here and elsewhere. I personally have no problem with the show regarding it though, Jaime’s character is pretty accurate to me. those are what rapists look and act like–familiar and close, not always strangers with no faces in dark alleys. I don’t think of him as a sympathetic character and never have. him going unpunished, thinking he’d done nothing wrong, is perfectly reflective of reality, and so is Cersei’s response (or lack thereof). she knows there’s no justice coming for her so why bother. that goes both ways–justice for the things that have been inflicted on her, and the things she has inflicted on others. I would say it’s not the show’s responsibility to ‘punish’ rapists or hold back from depicting rape but the audience’s responsibility to think about what we watch.

    THANK YOU.

  124. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    I’ve read now a ton of reviews and articles and it appears that the “rape” scene, wasn’t actually intended to be viewed as such (keeping in line with the book). This is evident by the fact that it isn’t brought up at all, which it certainly would have, had rape been the case.

    I guess all the “no Jamie, not here. It’s not right” was Cersei referring to boning by their dead son’s body, and not that she didn’t want the JD.

  125. Dheep'
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    “I’m Bored” “Nothing’s Happening” “There’s No Splosions” Don’t ya just Get sick of that ?
    This episode gave out SO much info. The ending took us to a place with the White Walkers that Martin has not even come close after 5 Books as thick as Bricks! Thank you

  126. noodle
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    get out with the “what about ________ this other thing that matters more than women getting raped” bullshit. 1) Theon DIDN’T get raped, he was saved. 2) I don’t give a shit about Theon or his shitty penis or his shitty penis getting cut off. That’s right, I don’t care. I care about female characters in this show being raped, but not about a male character getting his dick cut off. Don’t care, won’t care, don’t give a shit. Doesn’t matter to me.

    “Oh no noodle how could you? Why don’t you care, you’re mean and immoral! How can you care about women being raped and abused but not when it happens to men that’s hypocrisy!” 1) No man has been raped and sexually abused in this show so far. Many, many women have. 2) Mean, immoral, hypocrite–I expect all you Jaime lovers to start kissing my ass right about now. If you don’t feel the urge to kiss my ass, I’ll go out, find a child, and throw him off a very tall building. I will lure him up this building by making inappropriately sexual overtures towards him with the intent of controlling and manipulating his behavior. I expect noodle/Brienne fanfic from all of you within the hour.

    “Even if it’s not in the show there are men in the world who do get raped and abused!” And? What the fuck am I supposed to do about it? What do you want me to do, make sad cooing noises? It’s overwhelmingly MEN who rape, murder, and behave violently and abusively in this world. The most powerful people in the world, the people who control it, run it, and so ultimately are able to execute any sort of real and meaningful change, are all men. Why don’t you go say something to them?

    “Women do it too!” And? (see above.)

    “So you should still care!” I know, I do. I care a lot about the oppression of women by men globally, especially the rape and sexual abuse of women, one of the most horrific and damaging manifestations of this oppression. I also care about how it’s depicted in media, and what kind of effect it has on those who are exposed to this media. I mean, GOT is a pretty popular show. I care about it because I want rape and abuse to stop and not exist anymore. Do you have any ideas on how to make that happen? Oh you meant care about your man problems. I don’t give a shit about man problems. You can go elsewhere about your man problems. Do you think I’m a terrible, monstrous person now? Whatever, I don’t care if you don’t like me, look at all these former Jaime fans who love me now. And I still don’t care about Theon’s dick getting cut off. Theon’s dick getting cut off <<<<<<<<<<<<< numerous depictions of women being raped in this show.

    It would be so much easier for men if women wanted the D all the time. Because if women wanted it all the time, any time a man wanted to put his penis inside her, technically, no women would ever be raped. Because she wants it all the time. Technically. It's women not wanting D that's the problem. Women are the problem.

    Right?

  127. Matt
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    noodle,

    Theon didn’t get raped… he was saved! By what? Having his DICK chopped off? Jesus Christ man… Mutilation, especially the sex organs, is horrific and just as brutal as rape.

  128. Udi
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Bekah,

    Stannis? Is that you?!

  129. DoubleD
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Lyanna Mormont:

    And it was a bit squicky, the way Margaery was “grooming” Tommen just like pedophiles do with their intended targets.

    A particularly keen observation I must say. Considering the storm of protest over Jaime’s rape of Cersei, it does seem a little surprising there has not been similar concern over Margaery’s seduction of a young boy. Granted nothing has “happened” yet but still . . .

  130. Thonetender
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Oz, thoroughly enjoy your recaps. Didn’t expect so much of this week’s to be still hashing out Jaime and Cersei from last week. Just goes to show what a volatile issue it is.

    Loved every aspect of this episode, especially Jaime and Brienne – the Oathkeeper. Brienne sees something in Jaime that no-one else does. Much better that Kingslayer. But Tyrion’s Kingslayer Brothers remark was hilarious. That’s one King dead, one murdered on Jaime’s watch. Not a great scorecard.

  131. Thonetender
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Thought I’d expound a little on a hidden-in-plain-sight issue underlying the whole series, especially this season. Brother issues … it seems everyone has them. How they are handled by each character has lasting impact on that character’s life. Hmmm..

    Cersei has basically dismissed both of hers, from heart, mind and body, where applicable.

    Jaime has always loved his brother, despite negative opinions from other family members. He needed a gentle nudge to remember how he felt.

    Tyrion has always adored his brother. He’s a tad disappointed said brother seems disinclined to do anything about setting him free, however. “Oh, wouldn’t want you to do anything inappropriate.” Hilarious.

    Sansa is mourning three brothers. Just a matter of time before circumstances allow that sorrow to turn to rage. She isn’t a killer – not yet anyway. Great lines. Wonder how long it will take for her to find out Bran and Rickon are still alive. Nothing much has been shown about her relationship with Jon; no doubt she’d love to see him right now.

    Arya is already at the rage stage over her brothers and everything else.
    She’s handling it in her own Needling way.

    Jon has more complicated brother issues. He has blood and sworn brothers. Some he must mourn, some fend off, some teach, some unite, some rescue. That’s a lot of issues.

    Dany’s brother issue is already resolved; that resolution propelled her into the rest of her life.

    The Women of Craster’s Keep – are in a self-induced trance. After all, every baby boy sacrificed is the sacrifice of … a brother.

    I’m not sure where this can go, I’m bleary-eyed from reading all night. Regarding issues of eating, lol, munch on that for a while.

  132. Thonetender
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Crap, I think I posted the same damned post about brothers three times. Retyped it because it didn’t seem to be going through. My connection must be slow or something, or maybe my mind is slow today, who knows. If it shows up three times, delete a couple and accept my apologies. I told you, I’m bleary-eyed.

  133. Randa
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    noodle,

    I’m in school to be a rape counselor. It is my non professional undergraduate Britta Perrian opinion that you choose wiser battles. And learn to include men in your crusades.

  134. Thonetender
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Regarding my prior “Issues with Brothers” posts – the one that finally did get through left out Arya and Yara.

    Unlike Sansa, Arya is already at the rage stage, regarding brothers and everything else in her life. She seems to be handling it though, in her own Needling manner.

    Last but not least, Yara. I saw a preview that showed her rowing toward shore with the most determined look I’ve ever seen. She’s a woman of few words and swift, potent action. I loved what she said last season about gathering her best killers and finding Theon, sorry I can’t remember it all right now. I can’t wait until she gets hold of Roose Bolton and that damned Ramsay. Hard to believe, but I think that sockcucker is worse than the other little creep.

  135. noodle
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Randa,

    that’s what I did during the posts on last week’s episode, here and on other sites. the things I did read were very telling, however.

    I don’t need to learn anything. I think it’s great that you’re going to be a rape counselor. I assume there’s no grossly ignorant and sexist untruth in your education that rape and sexual assault has nothing to do with patriarchal oppression of women. What crusade? Perhaps less of a crusade, more of a taking the spotlight off the victim and putting it on the perpetrator. Who it is, what it is, where it comes from, why it does it. Finger pointing the source, if you will. Once the damage stops, there will be no need for counseling anymore, will there? It’s a noble thing you’re doing. Thanks for your opinion, but it’s not one I haven’t heard before.

  136. Niamhy
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Matt,

    “I guess all the “no Jamie, not here. It’s not right” was Cersei referring to boning by their dead son’s body, and not that she didn’t want the JD.”

    IF SHE IS OBJECTING IN ANY WAY, FOR ANY REASON THEN IT IS RAPE.
    CONSENT NEEDS TO BE ENTHUSTIC AND VERBAL.

  137. Khal James, Breaker of Beers
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    noodle,

    “I don’t need to learn anything.” Wow. Nothing at all?

    One can’t help but think that there could be a place and an audience where your arguments (read: “man-hate-seethed rantings”) might be more effectively utilized… like a political forum, or Facebook, or literally anywhere else. Forgive me, just an opinion from an avid book reader and show watcher/infrequent commenter that had this crazy notion that this site was for good, tasteful people to share their relevant, unique and well-thought out insights on a damn good series. Nobody’s antagonizing you here, so you aren’t changing anything… just bumming out fans of a TV show. Laura Stone’s comment was correct, TV is meant to elevate discourse; however, your brand of discussion is not productive, healthy, or – in my opinion – well informed. Please, if you feel so strongly then start a group or something, but we’re just trying to talk some Thrones here.

    Oz, I don’t comment often (and I’m sorry for writing a novel there), but just wanted to say that your posts are some of my favorites on the site as a very Sullied reader, and I’m looking forward to the next Looking Forward!

  138. vlad
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Hm, Oz you are usually very well informed. Just look what the director of episode 3 said about the scene between Jaime and Cersei. The fool thought he was making a consensual sex scene, that’s what was in the script…. I am still shocked nobody told him that it looks like a rape. Anyway, it’s annoying that we need to read post statements, but it wasn’t a rape, only horrible directing (and probably bad writing by D&D)

  139. Deez
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone know how old Tommen is supposed to be? My unsullied prediction is that Margery is gonna be offed by Cersei which will kick off a whole lot of crazy other crap. And I’m ready for the Oberyn and Mtn fight to go down. Also thanks Oz for a place non-book readers can read about the show.

  140. Gatorfisch
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    mellowjohn: oh, yes he can.

    Well played!

  141. TOIVA
    Posted April 29, 2014 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Deez,

    Good question about Tommen’s age. I’d also love to know. Two seasons ago, he seemed about 6-7 year old when crying at Myrcella’s departure. That’d put him at about 9.
    Yet his current looks (which could be deceiving) and Tywin’s ‘instructions’ would seem to indicate he might be 12 already. And therefore it’d be theoretically possible for Tywin to have grand-grandchildren very very soon (about 9 months from the Wedding night, as I doubt Margaery would get to that point in her late night visits). I’m curious how the show will handle that.

    Also, how old was late King Joffrey, anyway? Don’t believe that was revealed either.

  142. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Seems like we may be in for an episode with multiple family reunions in it given how the writers seem to like to reflect multiple takes on the same concept or idea (e.g. two swords times two). I’m hoping that sisters reunite at the keep (Arya and Sansa) while brothers reunite at Kraster’s Keep (Jon, Bran, and Rickon). The “issues with brothers” post pulled me back from the brink and caused me to think about the show again instead of just respond to it (thanks Thronetender.) Is it too much to hope that direwolf brothers will be reunited too?

  143. Reynardd the Fox
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Reynardd the Fox,

    Oops. meant to type that Arya and Sansa would reunite at the Eyrie. (Let’s hope)

  144. DoubleD
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    TOIVA,

    According to GoT Wiki, Tommen is about 12 when 19 yr old Joffrey dies.

  145. Asoiaf_Fan
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Alex Graves does not know what he is doing,

    It’s the same scene in the books Cersei says yes after some time they just cut it too soon on the show.
    And it’s not because she changes her mind after he overpowers her that it’s not a rape in the book either if you see it through your modern lense every love scene between them is (in show or book form, see their love scene from season 1, imagine that Cersei doesn’t change her mind after Jaime psychopatic monologue and tell me it doesn’t look like a rape too).
    And about what i think of judging the act as if it happened in our world and time : see below.

    Lyanna Mormont: Cersei said no.

    In a world/time where a woman saying no is not enough to define the act as rape (if they have the same laws as we had in the middle ages, it’s only if her male guardian denounces it as a rape that it is one, and usually it was only pursued when the woman was previously a virgin and that the rape endangers her prospect of finding a good husband).
    Cersei doesn’t see it as one, neither Jaime –> hence no change in the characters interactions with each other because of that act.

    The act may be despicable for us but it’s not for them and it would be a big mistake for D&D to make, the story is already dumbed down for the show they better not start to apply more modern morality view in medieval characters just to get the audience to be more comfortable.

  146. TOIVA
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    DoubleD,

    Well, assuming that’s valid for the show, let’s hope for Tommen’s sake the Bedding Ceremony will not be requested. Because it could.

    And 19 for Joffrey? He was no child then. I’ve always seen him more like 15-16 in the last season.

  147. DoubleD
    Posted April 30, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    TOIVA,

    GoT Wiki appears to follow the show, not the books.

  148. Gilly Snow Stark
    Posted May 3, 2014 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    Hi Oz, Where and when do I go to read Looking Ahead? Thank you

  149. Oz of Thrones
    Posted May 3, 2014 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Gilly Snow Stark,

    Usually on Saturday mornings, U.S. time. It will be up shortly!


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