Iain Glen and Emilia Clarke on Dany and Jorah’s emotional goodbye
By Lightbringer on in Interview.

In last Sunday’s episode of Game of Thrones, Jorah Mormont’s spying past finally caught up with him. His royal pardon was delivered from the Hand of the King into the hands of Barristan Selmy, and before Jorah could plead his case, Daenerys had already made up her mind. What followed was a truly heart-wrenching scene, as Daenerys could hardly bear to look at her once trusted advisor as she delivered his second sentence of exile.

Iain Glen spoke with Making Game of Thrones about the difficulties of shooting the emotional scene in Dany’s throne room, that was full of subtext.

“It was a difficult scene to play. Dan [Weiss] and David [Benioff] are succinct writers so it was absolutely jam packed with subtext which I had to try and access from what was basically a two-and-a-half page scene. The directors put the onus on us to discover our way through scenes, but [director] Alex Graves brought some wonderful ideas, and that was one of them, to speak through each other during that part of the scene.”

Iain admits that the scene was made even more difficult because not only was Jorah saying goodbye to Dany, but he was saying goodbye to his filming partner, Emilia Clarke.

“There is a great deal of heartbreak. It’s about us separating, which is what’s going to happen. Emilia [Clarke] and I went through a great deal together. We’ve been together for four seasons. We’re the only two that have really been together from the start.”

In a brief interview with Entertainment Weekly, Emilia shared the same sentiments.

“Emotionally for me it was so intricate. Jorah’s been with me since day one, season one. The scene itself is unpleasant because I — Emilia — know that what Dany is doing is wrong, And it was the first time I’ve ever felt that. I’m looking at Ian Glen thinking: ‘Don’t leave!’ I’m banishing him and all I want to do is cling to his ankles. It was really hard it marked one of the biggest decisions of this character to date.”

It’s unclear what Jorah will do next, as we saw him riding away from Meereen under the threat of death. Iain says that Jorah is “bereft,” but he believes that he will adapt, wherever the road takes him.

“Ser Jorah’s a survivor. He’s lived away from home for many, many years. He’s very good at adapting — he adapted well to the Dothraki, and adopted the way they live and even an element of their dress. He knows how to incorporate himself into different worlds, which is part of the reason why he was so helpful to Dany.”

For more from Iain’s interview visit Making Game of Thrones.

 


Could Jorah return to seek revenge on Daenerys? by winteriscoming

Get a daily update of the site’s latest news, conveniently sent in newsletter form, directly to your inbox. Sign up for WiC Daily.


126 Comments

  1. Dash
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Old Bear!

  2. Stannis
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    It could have been emotional if it weren’t for Emilia’s weird acting

  3. Dolorous Ned
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know who had the idea that Dany should stare into the air above Jorah instead of looking in his face, but it really didn’t work.

  4. Cami
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    “We’re the only two that have really been together from the start.” Wow that’s true, sad scene and really hard decision for Dany. I don’t know why but although I like the scene I have the feeling that the show didn’t make justice to the importance of the moment. Anyway… a little tribute to our J-Bear now that nobody is going to calle Daenerys ‘Khaleesi’ :_( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeOIh8QDGhg

  5. moonlightof1982
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    She was stupid to let him go!

  6. CoolHandLuque
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    I agree 100%…her acting has been really weird this season. Not sure if it’s her or the Director’s decison to deliver her lines the way she does, but for me it is not working.

  7. Arthur
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    This is a preemptive strike against all the Emilia Clarke haters…

    I think the Dany/Jorah banish scene was really well acted on all fronts.

    Of course Dany couldn’t look in his eyes, she was hurt beyond belief and was trying to appear strong and resolved. Looking into his eyes would bring to surface all the emotion these two share, she had to look away. Can’t you understand that?

    It really felt like a GF breaking up with her longtime BF after finding out he cheated. That’s really simplifying it but it was a good scene and I personally remember girls who’ve banished me with that look. (Yeah I was an asshole in my youth)

    It’s just funny how the same posters come out always bashing Emilia. Give me a break, she’s doing fine.

    She’s no Charles Dance or Peter Dinklage, but she’s doing just fine and give her a few decades of acting experience to hone her craft, as Chareles and Peter have had, and then let’s see how well she does.

    People are entitled to their opinions, but when it’s the same people speaking negatively of Emilia Clarke constantly, it just goes to show that that problem has to do with not liking Emilia in general. Those people will never be happy no matter what because unconsciously or not they just don’t like Emilia, so no matter what she does, in their opinions it’ll be awful.

    Okay, rant over….

  8. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    IMO, this scene was Emilia Clarke’s finest hour. There was a seething cold rage just under her steely surface. Brilliant, award-worthy acting, and I’m certainly not a Clarke fanboi.

  9. davyJones
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: IMO, this scene was Emilia Clarke’s finest hour. There was a seething cold rage just under her steely surface. Brilliant, award-worthy acting, and I’m certainly not a Clarke fanboi.

    100 percent agreed! whats up with the hate she always gets on this site?

  10. Paul
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    To all the Danny haters, you f****ng suck! Jorah was the one person she completely trusted and to learn that he’d betrayed her from the very beginning broke her heart. They had her not look at him cause if she had her emotions would have flooded out and that wouldn’t have done her character justice. It was heart wrenching to see this scene but in Game Of Thrones fashion nothing is ever left unresolved. I knew this was coming having read the books but it still sucked to see. I really hope Dany and Jorah reunite in the future!

  11. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Makes complete why she would avoid looking into his eyes. It’s hard for her to exile someone who has been her closest friend for years, but in her head she thinks its the right thing to do. So she avoids eye contact so that she can get through it with as little pain as possible. I thought her last look was perfect, a great mix of anger and sadness when watching him go.

  12. msd
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    I was disappointed by this scene. It didn’t feel emotional. Reading this, I suspect it was due to the direction the actors were given, though.

  13. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    I have difficulty understanding what people expected of Clarke in this scene. Did they want a melodramatic meltdown?

    She has been betrayed by her closest friend and advisor, and she is a queen. That is exactly what she played on screen.

    I can understand that people find her to be one of the weaker actors in the show. I also think so, though I find Heady, Gillen and Harrington to be at the bottom in that regard (though Heady has been excellent this season).

    But criticism of her very authentic acting in this scene confuses me.

  14. Sean C.
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think Clarke was great in this scene, but she wasn’t bad either. I do question the writing, though (quite apart from the pardon plot device, which was ludicrous as presented). We really should have seen Dany’s initial reaction to learning about this — for some reason the show has really drawn back from her, in a story based on her own POV chapters.

  15. Doug
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Don’t think we should see Jorah at all for the rest of this season. Hopefully we don’t. I don’t think we should see him until Tyrion gets to the brothel in Selhorys and bumps into him.

  16. DuffBeerForMe
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Sweet…picked up the third Ommegang beer today…well, two of them.

    Fire and Blood Red Ale

    One to drink with episode #9…the other to drink with my saved Iron Throne Ale and Take the Black Stout…when GRRM finishes book 6.

    Unfortunately the first beer says best before April 2015….might be pushing it there!

  17. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    I’m personally really hoping there is a breakdown/emotional scene later for Dany to demonstrate her “true” feelings about Jorah’s betrayal to follow up on the stoic “farewell”. I understand the way they played the farewell… but I personally got very little emotion from it… yet.

    P.S. I’m not an Emilia/Dany hater. That just what I got from the scene.

  18. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Agree 100% I don’t why it’s difficult to grasp why she couldn’t look him in the eye. People are just determined to be negative I guess.

  19. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    I think it’s fixed so it doesn’t log us out every time we comment?

    Testing.

  20. Mark
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Jorah and Tyrion’s scenes are gonna steal the season next year

  21. KG
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    You just ride that horse right to my house, Jorah.

  22. strokememarge
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane,

    I’m personally really hoping there is a breakdown/emotional scene later for Dany to demonstrate her “true” feelings about Jorah’s betrayal to follow up on the stoic “farewell”

    I really like this idea, hopefully D&D have or will create such a scene, would be powerful and tell viewers she isn’t just a stone cold queen and can be devastated. Wonder who she would open up to, Ser Barristan (papa figure) or Missandei (sister figure).

  23. Tatters
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Thats hardly suprising, Clarke and Gillen definitely has the two most complex characters on the show. I cant imagine many in those roles.
    Harington is definitely having little to play with, but he is pretty much the perfect Jon Snow.

  24. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Mark:
    Jorah and Tyrion’s scenes are gonna steal the season next year

    Yeah, I can’t wait to see how and where they meet. Another one of those bizarro GoT buddy adventures. Les Miserables.

  25. Kay
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    it was absolutely jam packed with subtext which I had to try and access from what was basically a two-and-a-half page scene.

    This is the problem I had with the entire Jorah betrayal plot in the last episode. Why a two-and-a-half page scene? These two characters have been together for 4 seasons, didn’t this parting/betrayal/hurt deserve more time than that? It’s the same problem I’ve had with the Meereen storyline this season. Too little screentime, not enough to develop the evolving characters. As for Emilia Clarke’s Daenerys, it seems to me the scripts and they are playing it as if Daenerys is stoic and hardened since that is what she thinks is expected of a ruler. No wonder there has been no scene with the dragons after episode 1; it’s as if she has forgotten her most important identity, the mother to her three “children”.
    I confess I am quite disappointed with the way the showrunners have dealt with the Meereen plot this season. Jorah has felt wooden too, and the scripts? “They are dragons, Khaleesi, they cannot be tamed, not even by their mother.” What profound dialogue! Oh dear! I am actually glad that finally Jorah and Daenerys are getting separated: the writers need to liven both of them up with new character interactions.

  26. Ashara D
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    strong>DuffBeerForMe,

    I still believe that you shall have your beer while it is still “best.”

    strokememarge,

    Agreed. Hope it is Barristan and that we get a little Story time with Uncle Barri. I’d like a little Rheagar and Lyanna please.

  27. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane:
    I’m personally really hoping there is a breakdown/emotional scene later for Dany to demonstrate her “true” feelings about Jorah’s betrayal to follow up on the stoic “farewell”. I understand the way they played the farewell… but I personally got very little emotion from it… yet.

    P.S. I’m not an Emilia/Dany hater. That just what I got from the scene.

    Couldn’t disagree more. There was a deep hurt and seething anger behind that “stoic” exterior that was clearly visible. It wasn’t nearly as cold as some insist it was. There was some serious dragon fire in her eyes! That “volcano ready to blow if Jorah doesn’t get out of her sight” interpretation of Dany’s demeanor was far more appropriate for such a throne room scene (and for Dany) than a melodramatic freak out. This is why I am so glad excellent directors direct these actors, and not GoT fans! :-)

  28. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 7, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    strokememarge:
    Lady Wolfsbane,

    I really like this idea, hopefully D&D have or will create such a scene, would be powerful and tell viewers she isn’t just a stone cold queen and can be devastated. Wonder who she would open up to, Ser Barristan (papa figure) or Missandei (sister figure).

    But she WAS devastated in that scene. In fact, she comes a close second to Michelle Fairley’s scream after Robb’s death, IMO, in terms of “level of devastatedness” in that throne room scene with Jorah. Watch her eyes and her hand gestures, particularly when she holds them up to prevent Jorah from touching her. She’s been gutted. Excellent, subtle acting. No need for melodrama. We have Peter Jackson for that sort of thing.

  29. Chaser
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane,

    I agree 100%. Perhaps if in the next episode, Jorah comes back to Meereen, and they kinda redo the scene , with another director who actually reminds Emilia Clarke that acting queenly allows her to sometimes emote things with her voice and face? Dat’d be cool. Iain Glen was really good by the way.

  30. jwal
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    davyJones,
    my theory is it all came from horrible Dany’s story was and how horrible she was in season 2. Overall, I think she’s good. For me, both Jon and Dany were some of my favs season 1, so 2 was soooooo aweful, acting and story-wise. That scene when Dany was looking at Drogo declaring war for her proved she could act. For Jon, the entire first season and his relationships between people were really effective and affecting. Seasons 3 and 4 were marked improvement.

  31. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree Emilia did some very good acting and I just don’t understand why some people are complaining about her not looking at Jorah. Made perfect sense to me. I talk about it in my review http://drangedinaz.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/20-things-about-mountain-viper/

  32. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Chaser:
    Lady Wolfsbane,

    I agree 100%. Perhaps if in the next episode, Jorah comes back to Meereen, and they kinda redo the scene , with another director who actually reminds Emilia Clarke that acting queenly allows her to sometimes emote things with her voice and face? Dat’d be cool. Iain Glen was really good by the way.

    Seriously, re-watch that scene. And this time, without blinders on. If you can’t see the searing emotion behind her eyes, and in the tremble of her face and hands, then you are simply not paying attention. She has barely contained grief and rage in her, and I can’t imagine a better way to play it.

  33. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Dany was showing stern cold rage. If she was all wound up it would have showed instability and emotional problems. She’s a queen! She can’t act like a 14 year old girl bawling her eyes out now can she?

    And I’m no Dany fan by any means but people in power can’t act that way. It would be like Obama crying on TV over Putin or Boehner

  34. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree Emilia did some very good acting and I just don’t understand why some people are complaining about her not looking at Jorah. Made perfect sense to me.I talk about it in my reviewhttp://drangedinaz.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/20-things-about-mountain-viper/

    Loved your review. I had a similar reaction to the Molestown scene. In fact, I said to the person next to me: “The crazy thing is that these kinds of sudden attacks on towns are happening all the time in Syria right now.” Gratitude is important indeed!

  35. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Not just in Syria. There are a lot of immigrants sitting in human rights violating conditions along the Mexican/ US border from those fleeing Honduras, El Salvador etc… Or how about Ukraine? It’s not just the Middle East brutality is not as uncommon in our world as people think

  36. Kay
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Chaser: Iain Glen was really good by the way.

    I found him to be quite wooden in that scene. From his interview, it seems he too struggled with the script in that scene.

    If Daenerys needs to be all emotional and have a break down, perhaps they should have shown Jorah bawling as he rode off all alone on his horse.

  37. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Not just in Syria. There are a lot of immigrants sitting in human rights violating conditions along the Mexican/ US border from those fleeing Honduras, El Salvador etc… Or how about Ukraine? It’s not just the Middle East brutality is not as uncommon in our world as people think

    Thanks, and agreed (though I am well aware of the various zones of instability in the world, as it is all very much related to my profession). I was just using Syria as one of the more severe examples of instability and insecurity at the moment. More people, innocent and otherwise, are being killed right now in Syria than anywhere else. Otherwise, we could expand your list to include Kashmir, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Somalia, etc.

    But I appreciate your comment nonetheless.

  38. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Kay,

    Seriously? He’s on the verge of tears for much of it. Some of his best acting yet…

    I really must have watched a different scene than some of you…

  39. strokememarge
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I know she was devastated, but she was keeping herself composed as best she can being queen. What I mean is a scene in private where she breaks down and cries on someone’s shoulder and lay’s out her feelings on everything. Ser Barristan is good, because he can then provide exposition on her family.
    Knowing D&D and how they love exposition disguised as sexposition, it might be Missandei and the scene devolves into you know what. Book fans do miss that Irri/Dany loveboat scene.

  40. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree Syria is the worst right now and appreciate your comment as well.

  41. Monchi
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Anyone else finds interesting that Emilia thinks Dany is making a mistake? What would have been the right or the wise thing to do in this situation? I’m really conflicted about it and the only thing I’m sure is that the decision felt rushed.

  42. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Monchi,

    IMO we know that Jorah changed at the wine merchants and definitely when Dany woke the dragons and was unburnt. He stopped spying in season 1 so he was telling the truth. Dany should have believed him but I would have liked it to be interesting maybe a trial by combat and I would have loved for it to be Jorah against Daario just so Daario could die!

    Any reason why I’m getting signed out after every post?

  43. Amanda M
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp: Our Bl

    I’m not necessarily disagreeing with what you said, but do you see the major irony in your statement? Haha I don’t know if you read the series, but book-Dany is actually 14. Don’t know if you chose that age intentionally, but I found it ironic :P

  44. Amanda M
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    (Woah, your quote vanished when I posted my comment… But I was referring to your comparison of Dany with a 14 year old :P)

  45. msd
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    I don’t think it’s helpful for people to dismiss criticism of the scene as Dany-hating. I found it curiously flat and truncated. Her struggle with the decision didn’t really come through. They should have had more of a lead in or lead out, imo.

  46. Monchi
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    Not sure about a trial by combat but if she couldn’t forgive him maybe she could have kept him around (as a prisoner) till she found something useful for him to do? Or how about using him as a double agent or something? Deep down she must know the man was being honest saying he is sorry and completely loyal to her. If that’s not the case and she has any doubt about his current loyalty then letting him walk away alive seems to me like an incredibly stupid decision, he knows her best than anyone and he probably know best than anyone how to destroy her. And yet… If she is completely sure that he will never hurt her again, why banishing him?

  47. strokememarge
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    It’s a shame about Syria, terrible, horrible things happening to the little people, as always the innocents suffer. You can blame as usual the Tywin’s of the world. Saudi family, Mossad and CIA instigated the whole business over two years ago. Syria was fairly peaceful, until the above decided to destabilize the country. The Saudi family wants to build pipelines through Syria to Turkey, but Assad wouldn’t agree. Mossad wanted to get rid of Assad so they could fly their planes over to Iran without him giving them early warning. CIA wanted to remove him to remove a key ally of Iran. Did you know Iran and Iraq signed new pipelines deals with Assad just weeks prior to the rise of civil strife. Of course those pipelines were key targets of the rebels after the fighting started. To many people think it was the Arab Spring, but it actually was power players as usual behind the scenes so they could reap the benefits of a change in government there. They just thought he’d role up and take the golden parachute, but then Putin entered the fray along with divisions of Republican Guard, Russian equipment, Chinese ghost support through Iran, etc. The later did it to muck up the west, Syria became a brush war between Russia/China/Iran and the G7, therefore you can blame them too, because if those three hadn’t backed Assad, the war would be over long ago.
    You can blame almost a quarter million deaths at their hands, because 99.9% of those people would be alive today if it weren’t for foreign meddling.

  48. Monchi
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    msd,

    Yeah I felt the same, what kind of bothers me is that they used almost the same amount of screentime for the Grey Worm- Missandei scene in the episode than for the Jorah’s banishment one. Just feels wrong …

  49. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    strokememarge,

    I appreciate you sharing your perspective, but my research has uncovered significant evidence to suggest that the Assad regime is primarily culpable (and was far less stable than it liked to project), and this included insecurities related to land use and water, as well as ethnic favoritism.

    If you don’t believe Assad is “one of the Tywins,” we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this subject!

  50. strokememarge
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    If you think I am kidding or what, I am a Foreign Affairs major and uncovered and accumulated all the information concerning the above while researching Middle East conflicts, economics, cultures and international relations. If you dig you can find tons of information concerning the goings on there that 99% of Americans know nothing about. Sometimes it involves analysis, most of the information were in news articles you just have to piece together the puzzle. My professors have given me ‘A’s and praised them for the research and conclusions.

  51. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Monchi,

    I was also thinking the way the scene played out on tv was feeling like she made a rushed decision, especially cause he told the truth. But as soon as she brought up Robert having killed her brother and father, and fer sure his informing KL on her and Drogo’s child…. I was sold. I really liked the scene.

  52. strokememarge
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Assad is definitely to blame also, he is a Tywin too, the point is this civil war wouldn’t have happened and especially to the extremity it has, if it weren’t for the meddling of outside forces from the beginning. They all had selfish reasons, mainly involving profit and influencing changes to a region for their own national interests.

  53. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    Amanda M: I’m not necessarily disagreeing with what you said, but do you see the major irony in your statement? Haha I don’t know if you read the series, but book-Dany is actually 14. Don’t know if you chose that age intentionally, but I found it ironic :P

    I do realize that but I meant it more from 14 year olds of our world. Mostly spoiled entitled rich American girls who think they are a princess and want a pony every birthday and cry when they don’t get one

  54. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    I’m not sure why my comments are disappearing… Is it because I asked why I have to sign in after every comment?

  55. msd
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:32 am | Permalink

    Monchi,

    Yeah, the pacing/structure of the ep was a little off for me this week. Dany/Jorah was over in a couple of minutes but the beetle story went on and on …

  56. paul
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Enjoyed and agreed with your rant, but must say I do have a chuckle sometimes at Charles and Peter’s sort of shakespearian delivery, Charles, after the blackwater couldn’t say “We’ve won” or We won” It had to be a booming “We have won”

  57. Greenjones
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    Well done. Though I understand a lot of the criticism that comes Emilia’s way, I think she did just fine in that scene. Of course she was overshadowed by Iain Glen but that’s to be expected. HE’S. THAT. GOOD.

  58. barak
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 3:57 am | Permalink

    paul: Enjoyed and agreed with your rant, but must say I do have a chuckle sometimes at Charles and Peter’s sort of shakespearian delivery, Charles, after the blackwater couldn’t say “We’ve won” or We won” It had to be a booming “We have won”

    I didn’t mind the “we have won”, I found it weird that the line needed to be spoken at all. The scene could’ve had a lot more punch if they conveyed the fact without dialogue.

  59. vosh
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 4:39 am | Permalink

    Acting is very subjective, so I respect the views of those criticizing Emilia’s performance, but I think she was outstanding and so did Alex Graves, going out of his way to praise her in the Hollywood Reporter for the second time this season:

    “People [book readers] know that scene, but I wanted to make the acting so incredible that it felt like they didn’t know that scene. I think the actors really delivered on that. We did about 10 takes of each of them. We spent a fair amount of time growing it. For all the talk of the fight, I hope people look back and [see the] incredibly complex narrative turn in Emilia Clarke’s performance last night. I think she was brilliant.”
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-oberyn-mountain-fight-708673

  60. Snowbird
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    I don’t have anything against Emilia but personally I don’t like her acting. Everytime she’s on screen it’s like she’s reading. There’s no emotion only reading the script.

  61. sebhai
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    Her acting during that scene is definitely the best from this season.In season 3 is when she gained the unsullied army,season 1 is on episode 10 when she emerged from the fire

  62. Turncloak
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    There’s a reason Emilia Clarke’s Breakfast at Tiffany’s got canceled. She is not a quality actress. Her delivery is so ham fisted. It’s very irritating

  63. Josla
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane: I’m personally really hoping there is a breakdown/emotional scene later for Dany to demonstrate her “true” feelings about Jorah’s betrayal to follow up on the stoic “farewell”. I understand the way they played the farewell… but I personally got very little emotion from it… yet.

    P.S. I’m not an Emilia/Dany hater. That just what I got from the scene.

    Lady Wolfsbane: I’m personally really hoping there is a breakdown/emotional scene later for Dany to demonstrate her “true” feelings about Jorah’s betrayal to follow up on the stoic “farewell”. I understand the way they played the farewell… but I personally got very little emotion from it… yet.

    P.S. I’m not an Emilia/Dany hater. That just what I got from the scene.

    Thank you. I personally didn’t like the scene either and I’m probably the biggest Dany/Jorah shipper there is. I felt it should be more emotional and I’m still crying over the fact the cut THE KISS! Jorah showed a little more feelings that her but I felt they both should have been more intense in their acting. However, after reading some comments about how she was containing herself and your idea of a later scene showing her breakdown I’m starting to warm up to the scene (if they in fact show that). What I loved about season one (and to an extent, two) Daenerys was how human and multidimensional she felt.

  64. Marty
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Josla:
    Thank you. I personally didn’t like the scene either and I’m probably the biggest Dany/Jorah shipper there is. I felt it should be more emotional and I’m still crying over the fact the cut THE KISS! Jorah showed a little more feelings that her but I felt they both should have been more intense in their acting. However,after reading some comments about how she was containing herself and your idea of a later scene showing her breakdown I’m starting to warm up to the scene (if they in fact show that). What I loved about season one (and to an extent, two) Daenerys was how human and multidimensional she felt.

    Maybe show her crying over the stack of books he gave her as a wedding present or something…

  65. johnnytata
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    i think people who think the acting was stiff and wooden are just completely wrong. that scene needed to be underplayed. if you don’t agree you don’t understand the characters or their story. melodrama would be completely out of place, would feel hack and over the top. it also can’t be too long or risk again overdoing it.

    backseat drivers, armchair quarterbacks and couch directors are among the most annoying species.

  66. johnnytata
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    just don’t understand the idea that the only way you can show hurt is by crying. i know i have certainly seen different people express hurt in very different ways so i am not sure why this is any less dramatic.

  67. John Buzzolo
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Personally I thought they was great scenes .

  68. Tatters
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Emilia is certainly the most controversial topic in this fandom, thats a fact. Every thread, everyone one of them. Always the same discussion.

  69. House Mormont
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    The last shot of Emilia just looking so empty and hurt after Jorah leaves was perfect, I was just thrown off by her voice not sounding like her

    Dany is one of my favourites to watch because her facial expressions always match up completely to her internal monologue from the books. Watch that Dany/Jorah scene in 4×05 and read the book version

  70. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    strokememarge,

    I don’t think you are kidding. I simply disagree. And I have been a professional Middle East analyst (as well as a foreign affairs practitioner for both governmental and intergovernmental institutions) for 19 years. I know Syria better than my hometown! :-)

  71. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Marty,

    I assume you’re being sarcastic about the crying over a stack of books thing? Unless you mean it as a metaphor for book purists lamenting the show’s changes to the text… :-)

  72. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    By the way, is there a reason that Tywin Lannister is allowed to be steely and kingly, while Daenerys is not allowed to be steely and queenly? I see Daenerys as a combination of Queen Elizabeth I and Alexander the Great. She’s an iron lady with a deep well of emotion buried within her – a well of emotion that is always threatening to bubble over, but rarely does (and in this scene with Jorah, it comes close). The truth is that she absolutely cannot afford to look weak, even to her closest advisors, IMO. She is a teenage girl fer shite’s sake. One breakdown and she could be finished.

  73. johnnytata
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    By the way, is there a reason that Tywin Lannister is allowed to be steely and kingly, while Daenerys is not allowed to be steely and queenly? I see Daenerys as a combination of Queen Elizabeth I and Alexander the Great. She’s an iron lady with a deep well of emotion buried within her – a well of emotion that is always threatening to bubble over, but rarely does (and in this scene with Jorah, it comes close). The truth is that she absolutely cannot afford to look weak, even to her closest advisors, IMO. She is a teenage girl fer shite’s sake. One breakdown and she could be finished.

    you consistently have the most measured, balanced, thoughtful and insightful comments on this website, without having to stoop to condescension to make your points. i love reading your comments and make a point to look for them. wish more people would listen to you.

  74. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    johnnytata,

    I thank you, Sir. Just sharing my impressions, that’s all. Though I am new to this site, I have also enjoyed your comments and look forward to discussing the rest of this season (and hopefully, another 4 seasons!)

  75. jentario
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Arthur,

    I agree!
    The acting in this scene was off the charts!

  76. Interior Bannisters
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Emilia nailed the scene. Why do we need to have cheesy tears in order to portray sadness. She was being stoic at times, but you could feel her rage seeping through, and that all comes from a place of deep hurt. Was the moment a bit rushed, yet, but it still worked. Emilia is hit/miss, but when she gets it right, she nails it. All the critics were praising her this episode, and I see more positive comments than negative here. And I do believe we are going to see her have an epic breakdown next episode

  77. Ross
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    My only issue with the scene was that Danaerys seemed to almost enjoy it. She seemed so sure of herself – whether that was acting on Dany’s part or not – that she seemed coldly pleased to revel in the moment of exiling him. Which for me struck a wrong note. I would have liked to see it more nuanced – have Jorah throw any opportunity of redemption away with his stubbornness as per the books. They makes it even more sad and painful because the chance of forgiveness is there. I do think they write Danaerys as TOO single-minded and sure. She needs to start having some self doubt at some point otherwise she really is less interesting and less believable.

  78. Chaser
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    I’m pretty sure she could have afforded, despite her Queen Elizabeth 1st pedigree, to tilt her heard 30 degrees lower. Tywin is one described as having basically never smiled. Daenerys is either a 14 y.o. girl, as in the books, or according to the show, one who used to shout “werrrrre’s my draggggggonss,HAA!” Either way, her acting is now off.

  79. Josla
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Ross,

    Agree

  80. Tatters
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Chaser,

    She is 20 by now, so she isnt a little girl, little girls doesnt act this way.

  81. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    By the way, is there a reason that Tywin Lannister is allowed to be steely and kingly, while Daenerys is not allowed to be steely and queenly? I see Daenerys as a combination of Queen Elizabeth I and Alexander the Great. She’s an iron lady with a deep well of emotion buried within her – a well of emotion that is always threatening to bubble over, but rarely does (and in this scene with Jorah, it comes close). The truth is that she absolutely cannot afford to look weak, even to her closest advisors, IMO. She is a teenage girl fer shite’s sake. One breakdown and she could be finished.

    Gee, what could that reason be? I’m sure people will get mad at me for bringing up sexism, but yeah. I think people have certain expectations about women should deal with things versus how men should.

    I would have hated the scene if she was weeping and blubbering. It would be completely out of character. That isn’t who Daenerys is. Not in the show. Not in the books.

  82. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Chaser:
    I’m pretty sure she could have afforded, despite her Queen Elizabeth 1st pedigree, to tilt her heard 30 degrees lower. Tywin is one described as having basically never smiled. Daenerys is either a 14 y.o. girl, as in the books, or according to the show, one who used to shout “werrrrre’s my draggggggonss,HAA!” Either way, her acting is now off.

    Where in the books, particularly after she starts conquering does she run around crying and acting melodramatic?

  83. Chaser
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Where in my comment did I say “run around crying and acting melodramatic”? Now, if you read “act less wooden” and infer “start wearing a Phantom of the Opera mask and crank that emotion up to 11″, those are your conclusions.

  84. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Gee, what could that reason be? I’m sure people will get mad at me for bringing up sexism, but yeah.I think people have certain expectations about women should deal with things versus how men should.

    I would have hated the scene if she was weeping and blubbering.It would be completely out of character.That isn’t who Daenerys is.Not in the show.Not in the books.

    Thanks Weirwood. I was indeed implying that as one possibility, but was trying to be subtle about it. :-)

  85. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Ross,

    I saw the exact opposite. She was struggling to contain how hurt she was, and how difficult it was to expel her most trusted advisor, whilst maintaining her authority. I got absolutely zero sense that she was “enjoying” it. Watch her arms and lips tremble as she tells Jorah to “never presume to touch me, or speak my name, every again” (paraphrase).

    I can accept that people are less enthusiastic about her acting in this scene than I am (particularly as I do think Clarke has been a little one-note here and there – esp. in season 2). However, I cannot accept the description of her acting in this particular scene as “wooden” or “robotic.” It is essentially a fact that there’s nothing wooden or robotic about it. Whether or not you agree with her interpretation of Dany’s reaction is another matter.

  86. MX
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    While your comments on the Khaleesi are excellent, as someone who also deals with the Middle East professionally (with a Ph.D. in its history, and not from some minor school), I do need to tell you that you are tendentious.

    Certainly, Asad is a Tywin — even more precisely, a Jaime, I’d say, since he has largely been a privileged, indulged son who wasn’t expected to inherit “the throne”. Yet, while the Syrian regime is nasty, I would far rather live under his clout than under Mubarak’s, for instance. Education and health care in Syria were excellent compared to Turkey, let alone most of the Arab world.

    At the same time, to deny that major players have wanted to destroy Syria and that the US and the Saudis have happily supported a large influx of jihadis into the country smacks of either willing and disingenuous information campaigning, or of general naivete.

    Asad or not, the Arab world needs states which are secular (without being adverse to religion in one’s private sphere). And, another “detail”: There is no need for yet another exile of Christians from the Middle East, such as it was caused by brutal US policies in Iraq.

    To end on a lighter note, I don’t see how anyone could fault Heady’s acting. She does more with one eyebrow in five minutes than someone like Angelina Jolie has done with her entire body in 20 years of acting.

  87. Ser Florian
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    This is something I’ve always felt, with the Dany-hate, from both book readers and show watchers… If Dany was a man, he’d be Daeron the Young Dragon come again. He’d be Aegon the Conqueror reborn. He’d be the kick-*ss Dragon Knight, father of Dragons, killer of the Undying, kickin’ *ss in Slaver’s Bay, before heading back to Westeros to take back what is his. It wouldn’t have mattered if he’d cried or not while banishing Jorah… if he didn’t, it’d because he’s a leader, he’s stoic, he knows what needs to be done. If he did cry, it’d be because he’s still sensitive, despite being so kick-*ss, and Jorah was like an uncle to him, one of his closest friends and advisors. There’d be no expectation for how he should react.

    But, as a woman, there’s an expectation to how she should react, what she should do… And if she goes against that, she’s “doing it wrong”. In the books at least, she herself starts to realise and play with this (“I’m just a young girl, unfamiliar in the ways of war”). And she becomes a good mirror to Cersei’s constant claims that if she’d been born a man, she’d be more effective. Dany wasn’t born a man, she’s demolishing slavery, amassing an army, and, maybe, forcing the Dothraki to follow a woman.

  88. Turncloak
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Ser Florian,

    We have a male Dany. His name is Jon Snow/Kit Harrington. In past seasons I’ve heavily criticized his acting as well. This year he seems to have improved

  89. Tatters
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Unlike Emilia, he has to run around in snow and swordfighting, and no dragons.
    There is a big difference.

  90. arden
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    If you think its stupid for Dany not to look in Jorah’s eyes you really don’t understand the scene.

    Jorah is practically her father at this point. Could you look into your father’s eyes while you’re exiling him? Lol what a joke

  91. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Agreed. IMO, Dany is unequivocally the most honorable, effective and kick-ass character in the books (and on the show) up until her descent into navel-gazing after book 3 (which I think GRRM is to blame for – a strange digression in her character arc that only seems to justify stretching out her story, rather than saying anything meaningful about her growth).

    It’s impossible to prove a negative, but I don’t doubt that she wouldn’t be so controversial if she were a man. Some people treat her in very much the same way as they treat strong female leaders such as Hillary Clinton and Margaret Thatcher.

    I mean, is it realistic to believe that very many people would have complained if a male Dany had killed all those slavers in Meereen? The overwhelming response would have been “Yeah, screw those guys!”

    Note that I am not, however, accusing anyone here on WIC of sexism. I have not been here long enough to determine whether or not there is any sexism embedded in criticisms of her book and TV character.

  92. Turncloak
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Tatters,

    The point that I was making is that Dany being a female does not excuse her from bad acting. Jon Snow/Kit Harrington is the perfect example to compare as he has very lackluster in season 2 and 3 despite having the ability to wield a sword

  93. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    MX,

    I appreciate your comments, but you are battling a straw man here. I have never denied that the US, the Saudis and others have had an interest in undermining the Assad regime as part of a strategic calculus (whether or not that is justifiable is another matter).

    However, the existence of said interests does not imply that the outbreak of revolt in Syria was driven by external forces, no matter how much Assad (and Russian) propaganda have claimed otherwise.

    I don’t want to play an authority/ self-promotion game here, but you’ve forced me into a corner. :-) I not only have an area studies PhD with a focus on Syria, but I also have a PhD focused on land and water use in the region (and from a prestigious school in the UK, which I will not name here, as I don’t want to appear any more pretentious than I already seem at this point!) Let’s just say I spent a lot of time in the Bird and Baby. On top of this, I have spent 19 years working both in the field, and outside the field, on Syria for both governmental and inter-governmental institutions.

    And based on both my scholarly and professional assessments, I believe the catalyst for the Syrian revolt was primarily internal, and consisted of a mix of four basic drivers/ proximate causal factors:

    1. Severe water stress and food insecurity in rural regions, particularly Northwestern Syria, exacerbated by the Assad regime’s criminal mismanagement of those water and land resources (including subsidizing water-intensive cotton farming and over-extracting fossilized groundwater), and serious favoritism toward Alawites in rural areas (including in awarding well-digging contracts, etc).

    2. A mass displacement of peoples from rural to urban areas as a result of the above (1.5 million people) that put enormous pressures on major cities.

    3. A heightened perception of the “probability of regime change” as a result of the dynamics in Egypt and Tunisia at the time

    4. A much more fragile multi-ethnic and sectarian mix than many political and security analysts had imagined, which broke down/ responded to the three drivers above

    Yes, the US, the Saudis and others have, since the outbreak of violence, supported rebel forces, both with financial and physical assets. But this has nothing to do with why such a large percentage of the population revolted.

    A final point: Yes, we need secular regimes in the region. But that does not excuse the actions of authoritarian secularists who have failed the governance game. I believe in the concept of the Responsibility to Protect, and the Assad regime was coming dangerously close to violating that concept in terms of its treatment of a large cross-section of Syrian society. It seems that many Syrians agreed, for various inter-related reasons.

    I have published on the subject, and would be happy to communicate privately with you, if you’re interested. Though we’re not likely to ever agree, I would guess. Like the blind men and the elephant…

  94. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Tatters,

    The point that I was making is that Dany being a female does not excuse her from bad acting. Jon Snow/Kit Harrington is the perfect example to compare as he has very lackluster in season 2 and 3 despite having the ability to wield a sword

    Agreed. Though many of us are saying that her acting is quite good, and that some may not appreciate it because it is different from their interpretation of how a female leader (or Dany from the books) would (or should) act.

    Personally, I think she has the severe yet justice-minded queen thing down quite well. Could she inject a bit more subtlety here and there? Yes. Certainly.

    But IMO, not in this scene with Jorah. She was perfect.

  95. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    It just came out that those immigrants were bussed and flown into AZ because they had a warehouse to put them in here. There are hundreds of children without families that they are having to take care of and they are expecting more. The latest report I read said that Border Patrol was overwhelmed all of a sudden. There are about 48,000 children without families that came across the border. So goodness knows how many more are intact families. I don’t understand why AZ is angry at the Feds…they are getting overrun in TX and they had to put them somewhere. AZ officials are complaining on one hand that the Feds aren’t taking care of the kids well enough but then are saying that the Feds should just seal the border and leave those kids to their fate in the Mexican desert. I guess if they die in the desert on the Mexican side it’s morally acceptable. The lack logic and basic empathy in my state boggles the mind. I know it’s off topic but I just wanted to clarify the situation that you mentioned. I’ll shut up now.

  96. KG
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    To paraphrase off the top of my head, “Love comes in through the eyes.”

    And THAT is why she wouldn’t look at him. Self-defense.

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Arthur,

    Agree 100%I don’t why it’s difficult to grasp why she couldn’t look him in the eye.People are just determined to be negative I guess.

  97. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    It just came out that those immigrants were bussed and flown into AZ because they had a warehouse to put them in here.There are hundreds of children without families that they are having to take care of and they are expecting more.The latest report I read said that Border Patrol was overwhelmed all of a sudden.There are about 48,000 children without families that came across the border.So goodness knows how many more are intact families.I don’t understand why AZ is angry at the Feds…they are getting overrun in TX and they had to put them somewhere.AZ officials are complaining on one hand that the Feds aren’t taking care of the kids well enough but then are saying that the Feds should just seal the border and leave those kids to their fate in the Mexican desert.I guess if they die in the desert on the Mexican side it’s morally acceptable.The lack logic and basic empathy in my state boggles the mind.I know it’s off topic but I just wanted to clarify the situation that you mentioned. I’ll shut up now.

    There’s one overarching problem in the state, and it begins with a J and ends with an R. :-)

  98. KG
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    GTFO of our Game of Thrones blog with this.

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    MX,

    I appreciate your comments, but you are battling a straw man here. I have never denied that the US, the Saudis and others have had an interest in undermining the Assad regime as part of a strategic calculus (whether or not that is justifiable is another matter).

    However, the existence of said interests does not imply that the outbreak of revolt in Syria was driven by external forces, no matter how much Assad (and Russian) propaganda have claimed otherwise.

    I don’t want to play an authority/ self-promotion game here, but you’ve forced me into a corner. :-) I not only have an area studies PhD with a focus on Syria, but I also have a PhD focused on land and water use in the region (and from a prestigious school in the UK, which I will not name here, as I don’t want to appear any more pretentious than I already seem at this point!) Let’s just say I spent a lot of time in the Bird and Baby. On top of this, I have spent 19 years working both in the field, and outside the field, on Syria for both governmental and inter-governmental institutions.

    And based on both my scholarly and professional assessments, I believe the catalyst for the Syrian revolt was primarily internal, and consisted of a mix of four basic drivers/ proximate causal factors:

    1. Severe water stress and food insecurity in rural regions, particularly Northwestern Syria, exacerbated by the Assad regime’s criminal mismanagement of those water and land resources (including subsidizing water-intensive cotton farming and over-extracting fossilized groundwater), and serious favoritism toward Alawites in rural areas (including in awarding well-digging contracts, etc).

    2. A mass displacement of peoples from rural to urban areas as a result of the above (1.5 million people) that put enormous pressures on major cities.

    3. A heightened perception of the “probability of regime change” as a result of the dynamics in Egypt and Tunisia at the time

    4. A much more fragile multi-ethnic and sectarian mix than many political and security analysts had imagined, which broke down/ responded to the three drivers above

    Yes, the US, the Saudis and others have, since the outbreak of violence, supported rebel forces, both with financial and physical assets. But this has nothing to do with why such a large percentage of the population revolted.

    A final point: Yes, we need secular regimes in the region. But that does not excuse the actions of authoritarian secularists who have failed the governance game. I believe in the concept of the Responsibility to Protect, and the Assad regime was coming dangerously close to violating that concept in terms of its treatment of a large cross-section of Syrian society. It seems that many Syrians agreed, for various inter-related reasons.

    I have published on the subject, and would be happy to communicate privately with you, if you’re interested. Though we’re not likely to ever agree, I would guess. Like the blind men and the elephant…

  99. MX
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Argonath,

    The Bird and the Baby is a 20-minute walk from my current place, but I don’t see us sharing a pint there. Glad that you agree on the necessity for a secular state, though. Funny that Fidan and Davutoglu’s little chat got so little attention from media in the “West”, wouldn’t you agree? Honi soit qui mal y pense…

  100. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Apologies to the blog (though not to you), but I was responding to particular comments from another poster. And as I did not violate any terms of service, please refrain from telling me to “GTFO.”

    The conversation started off as relevant, as we were discussing the attack on Molestown, and the various areas around the real world where populations experience such insecurities every day. In Syria, which is in the throes of a civil war/ governance breakdown not very much unlike the governance breakdown in Westeros, innocent people die horroble, violent deaths every day. Just making the point that this state of affairs is not just from “yesteryear.” Not all of us have the luxury of sitting on our couches and watching HBO in peace!

    But out of respect for this site (and because I am here to talk about GoT, not my work!) I will try to leave the Syria dialogue alone for now.

    But I will have you know that I do not respond well to threats and vulgar personal attacks. You could have politely suggested that I stay on-topic, but instead decided to be an adolescent about it. Hope that made you feel better.

    GTFO,
    ArathornofBraavos

  101. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    MX:
    Argonath,

    The Bird and the Baby is a 20-minute walk from my current place, but I don’t see us sharing a pint there. Glad that you agree on the necessity for a secular state, though. Funny that Fidan and Davutoglu’s little chat got so little attention from media in the “West”, wouldn’t you agree? Honi soit qui mal y pense…

    I do agree that attention to it was non-existent in the western press, but it isn’t very surprising. In any event, I am currently in Beirut, so stopping in at the Bird and Baby for a pint would be difficult. :-) Haven’t been back in 10 years, but hope to sooner rather than later. No reason why I couldn’t share a pint with someone I disagree with on one particular subject. Keeps the mind sharp. And if that conversation fails, we could always turn to GoT!

    After all, we seem to agree about both Dany and Emilia!

  102. KG
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Yes, yes, you’re terribly polite when you’re cluttering up an entertainment blog with your personal political views. It’s off-topic, I don’t appreciate it, and I don’t honestly care if my abrupt dismissal of your essay on the topic hurt your feelings or not.

    ArathornofBraavos:
    KG,

    Apologies to the blog (though not to you), but I was responding to particular comments from another poster. And as I did not violate any terms of service, please refrain from telling me to “GTFO.”

    The conversation started off as relevant, as we were discussing the attack on Molestown, and the various areas around the real world where populations experience such insecurities every day. In Syria, which is in the throes of a civil war/ governance breakdown not very much unlike the governance breakdown in Westeros, innocent people die horroble, violent deaths every day. Just making the point that this state of affairs is not just from “yesteryear.” Not all of us have the luxury of sitting on our couches and watching HBO in peace!

    But out of respect for this site (and because I am here to talk about GoT, not my work!) I will try to leave the Syria dialogue alone for now.

    But I will have you know that I do not respond well to threats and vulgar personal attacks. You could have politely suggested that I stay on-topic, but instead decided to be an adolescent about it. Hope that made you feel better.

    GTFO,
    ArathornofBraavos

  103. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    Agreed. IMO, Dany is unequivocally the most honorable, effective and kick-ass character in the books (and on the show) up until her descent into navel-gazing after book 3 (which I think GRRM is to blame for – a strange digression in her character arc that only seems to justify stretching out her story, rather than saying anything meaningful about her growth).

    It’s impossible to prove a negative, but I don’t doubt that she wouldn’t be so controversial if she were a man. Some people treat her in very much the same way as they treat strong female leaders such as Hillary Clinton and Margaret Thatcher.

    I mean, is it realistic to believe that very many people would have complained if a male Dany had killed all those slavers in Meereen? The overwhelming response would have been “Yeah, screw those guys!”

    Note that I am not, however, accusing anyone here on WIC of sexism. I have not been here long enough to determine whether or not there is any sexism embedded in criticisms of her book and TV character.

    I very much doubt any of the commenters here are overtly thinking that women are incompetent or that they hate women or anything. It’s just that we live in a sexist culture and everyone (including women) internalizes it a bit. It becomes a reflexive to get put off by women not being soft and emotional enough while at the same seeing a display of emotion as evidence she is not reasonable or competent. It’s something we all have to actively fight against.

    The way people talk about Dany reminds me so much of the media coverage about Hilary Clinton. Clinton’s marriage gets brought up so often, people even asked if her becoming a grandmother would effect her decision to run for president. Except for with Dany people talk about her sex life and complain about her friendzoning Jorah.

  104. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    To paraphrase off the top of my head, “Love comes in through the eyes.”

    And THAT is why she wouldn’t look at him. Self-defense.

    I agree with this. Her love for Jorah, and her feelings of betrayal, would have bubbled over if she looked at him. She has learned how to maintain her resolve. Akin to thinking about something not-so-sexy while attempting to…you know…last longer.

    But there may be another layer to it. Dany may have feared that if she looked Jorah in the eyes, his love for her, and devotion to her, would have been apparent, and that this would have made it far more difficult for her to do what needed to be done, which is banish Jorah. She may have wanted to keep him de-humanized and abstracted. Just another faceless supplicant on the steps who had committed an unforgivable act, and needed to be punished. Not dissimilar to those faceless 163 Meerenees slavers. They, as an abstract group, needed to be punished, and it was only when one of them looked her in the face (at least, the son of one of them – Hizdar zo Loraq) that her resolve broke down, and her mind turned toward mercy.

    In that sense, this will be the start of the backward slide for Dany. It was Jorah who counseled mercy, and convinced Dany to be merciful to the Yunkai. Now as the backlash against her rule intensifies, and as Jorah has proven false, she may decide that Jorah’s advice was ultimately poor, and that she needs to maintain her “severity,” – you know, Margaery’s “price you pay for greatness” and all that.

    In that context, it’s not just that Jorah is not around anymore to give good advice. Dany will now see Jorah’s entire philosophy as suspect, and take actions that are intentionally contradictory to what he may have counseled.

    Such a pivotal scene, and I think wonderfully executed by Clarke and Glenn. And if it feels “truncated,” I believe that is in service of Dany’s character arc here. The scene must be short, because otherwise, Dany might have had second thoughts. And Dany, at this point, is done second-guessing herself. She has begun the downward slide that is “second-guessing everyone except herself.” Her descent into poor governance has begun…

  105. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    I’ve already moved on, KG. Keep up! :-)

    In any event, I tend to think of GoT as far more than entertainment, if that means anything to you. It’s a testament to the skill of both GRRM and the showrunners that their respective fantasy worlds contain so many well-drawn real world parallels – ancient, medieval and modern.

  106. MX
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    That was indeed rude and uncalled for. While we “experts” can be a bit excessive in our interests and polemics, I would have imagined that someone who is into GoT wouldn’t mind a bit of Realpolitik mixed in.

    Arathorno,

    Beirut would make an even better King’s Landing than Dubrovnik if they hadn’t destroyed the old city. I wish I were there to enjoy the food and the bookstores. Last time I was in the area, summer 2006, things got a little hot…!

  107. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I would really like to reply, but you’re clearly not interested in other people’s opinions, and debating what you got from a scene. “Take the blinders off?” K, so I’m blind? Now THAT’S condescending. I didn’t insult you.

    When Tyrion was betrayed by VARYS, I got more emotion from that scene, let alone the scene with Shae. I believe Tyrion is MALE. Please don’t make it about gender, when for me it certainly is not. I wasn’t even commenting about the acting. I got not emotion from the scene. Hoping for more in episode 10 maybe…

  108. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    One last thing. I can understand your frustration if all my comments were off-topic. But it is clear that my comments on Syria were a short detour, and that I am here to discuss GoT. In that context, why not ignore my off-topic posts and respond to my on-topic material?

    Lastly, I apologized for the digression. If you are too small of a person to accept that, then I have nothing more to say to you. It’s just a shame that these stories, and your experiences in life, have not yet taught you of the limited value of small-mindedness.

    Take it from me: it doesn’t get you very far, and is rarely appreciated.

  109. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane,

    I actually didn’t intend to direct that comment at you, but rather, those folks who instinctively react negatively to Clarke’s acting. I do believe that people can have legitimate differences in opinion about how Clarke interprets the character of Dany during scenes of interpersonal communication (particularly ones that are pregnant with emotion). However, I have some difficulty accepting broadsides about her acting in this particular scenes, such as “she was wooden” or “she was robotic.” While I agree that she has occasionally seemed a bit flat, I don’t see that flatness at all in this scene.

    But again, I do appreciate that there are differences of opinion on how this scene played out, and am sorry if you were offended. I am interested in the opinions of others on this subject, as long as those opinions seem well-articulated, open-minded and genuine. I didn’t intend to lump you into the same category as those who simply can’t stand the sight of Emilia Clarke.

    Lastly, I’m not accusing anyone here of sexism. I haven’t been here long enough to confidently make such an assertion about any of the posters here. But in my personal experience, I have indeed witnessed a great deal of such attitudes from people regarding Dany – some of whom surprised me.

  110. ArathornofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    MX,

    In my dreams, Beirut’s old city (intact) IS King’s Landing. It is such a potent dream that I will forever have difficulty accepting Dubrovnik as a setting, despite its extraordinary beauty.

  111. johnnytata
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    i agree that there is no way dany would be treated or thought of the same way if she were a man. i don’t think that it’s necessarily sexism, unless you think crying is a bad thing, which i do not, it’s human nature to have different expectations, maybe a little stereotyping but not necessarily sexism.

    having said that, dany was in a very tough spot. she has just decided to be a ruler as well as a conqueror, and she is very ripe for second guessing, and keeping your composure, which i agree was/is crucial for her character, cannot be an easy thing when you find out that the person you trusted most was partially responsible for an assassination attempt on you and your unborn child.

    i think she conveys that pretty well.

  112. MX
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Dubrovnik has many charms; as a child, I once stayed in the (now abandoned) hotel where the Oberyn fight was filmed. Another place wracked by war… While Dubrovnik is very dear to me, in many ways I prefer the rich golden colors of the southern Mediterranean to the melancholy pinks and grays of the Adriatic.

    More wickedly, I would add that the old elites of Dubrovnik and Beirut are similar in their arrogance toward outsiders — another good ingredient for King’s Landing.

  113. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    The interesting thing is that my familiarity with Dubrovnik – primarily through friends who live there – prevents me from accepting it as King’s Landing. I just see Dubrovnik. But my even deeper familiarity with Beirut does not have the same effect. For one reason or another, King’s Landing pulses in a way that reminds me of old (and even new) Beirut. It may be the golds and the oranges that are the primary culprits, but I suspect its a combination of that and the personality of the cities’ inhabitants.

    Dubrovnik (and stereotypically, Croatians in general) are far more direct (and occasionally tactless) than the elites of King’s Landing that we spend most of our time with in the show and books. In Beirut, people (particularly the elite) are less direct, more circumspect (and more polite), in my experience, and that may contribute to its “King’s Landing” edge.

  114. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    johnnytata,

    I agree. I think that’s largely because many people do not like “that kind of woman.” You know, ambitious, confident and commanding with a strong sense of justice.

    Personally, if “that kind of man” is seen as likeable by a lot of people, I think society would benefit from getting to a point where “that kind of woman” can also be likeable.

    I like the kind of woman Dany is in books 1-3 because I see her ambition and confidence being utilized successfully in the service of bettering the lives of the downtrodden through conquest. She seems less capable of “governing” in the service of the same goals, however, which is her downfall in the remaining books. But IMO, she had the capacity to be a good ruler, but her rejection of Jorah (and his perspective on ruling) killed that capacity in its crib.

  115. B
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Ned,

    Dolores Ned, I agree with you about that Dany misstep. Her looking above him looked as if she were blind or something, not avoiding looking at him. IF she as going to do that it should not have been until the very last word.

  116. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Thanks for the positive feedback on the review. In regards AZ, I hear ya. In truth, the problems are much deeper than whoever is in the governor’s office. Kind of like it is in Westeros actually…I don’t think it matters who is on the throne, the problem is systemic. ;)

  117. David-Frédéric Prince
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Emilia Clark just can’t act. She’s as wooden as they go. But she’s pretty and has charisma.

    I just don’t see it as far as the praising go. Sometimes she’s not so bad, but that scene with Jorah was awful.

  118. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    David-Frédéric Prince:
    Emilia Clark just can’t act. She’s as wooden as they go. But she’s pretty and has charisma.

    I just don’t see it as far as the praising go. Sometimes she’s not so bad, but that scene with Jorah was awful.

    I’ve found that an IMO here and there helps the discussion. :-)

  119. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    ArathornofBraavos,

    Thanks a lot. That brings it back down to a place where I can play.

    Sometimes I feel… like they brought Dany from terrified young pawn to stoic Queen too quickly. It’s hard to show her self/doubt, indecision, conflicted emotions when she doesn’t have anyone to confide in, and we can’t see her inner emotions like in the book. She HAD a confidant – “it is known” – but they had her turn on Dany, and they she got sealed up in a safe. ;) Tyrion had Shae to babble to, and Jamie – so we were brought in on the journey. Dany has no one. So it’s harder for me to connect to her. Perhaps if they had ramped up her dependence on either Jorah or Berry or Missandei to compensate, I would feel differently. Heck – even a scene where she THINKS about trusting someone… and then she doesn’t…. Insead we we get Missandei confiding in HER about Grey Worm – the opposite…

  120. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Lady Wolfsbane:
    ArathornofBraavos,

    Thanks a lot. That brings it back down to a place where I can play.

    Sometimes I feel… like they brought Dany from terrified young pawn to stoic Queen too quickly. It’s hard to show her self/doubt, indecision, conflicted emotions when she doesn’t have anyone to confide in, and we can’t see her inner emotions like in the book. She HAD a confidant – “it is known” – but they had her turn on Dany, and they she got sealed up in a safe. ;) Tyrion had Shae to babble to, and Jamie – so we were brought in on the journey. Dany has no one. So it’s harder for me to connect to her. Perhaps if they had ramped up her dependence on either Jorah or Berry or Missandei to compensate, I would feel differently. Heck – even a scene where she THINKS about trusting someone… and then she doesn’t…. Insead we we get Missandei confiding in HER about Grey Worm – the opposite…

    That is an excellent point that I hadn’t considered. In this context, I feel the fault lies more in the writers than in Clarke’s acting. More scenes of her down time with her advisors, as you say, could have gone a long, long way toward humanizing her, and attracting the admiration of some of her detractors.

    And I have to agree on the Missandei scene. It is almost as if the showrunners are turning Missandei, Greyworm and Jorah into POV characters, while moving Dany into non-POV status.

    Perhaps there is a reason for all of this that has to do with the ultimate endgame of Dany’s story? Maybe the showrunners want us to start distancing ourselves from her for some reason or another?

    In any event, great points. You’ve gotten me thinking between the lines of what Benioff and Weiss might be plotting!

  121. Justin
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Doug,

    Agreed but they can’t keep An out of the show for too long so in thinking they will fast forward T’s journey to pair the two up quicker

  122. Tatters
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    No one in particular was good in that storyline, Kit was at least able to stand up to veterans such as Ciaran and Mackensie Crook.

  123. KG
    Posted June 8, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Good show. Nice to see that some folks around here can argue and get over things.

    ArathornofBraavos:

  124. sebhai
    Posted June 9, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    411530″>Longmont,
    Longmont,

    I second this

  125. bran
    Posted June 10, 2014 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    It seems some folks need to said GTFO just to get over things perhaps he/she needs to hear GTFO as well

  126. Arya
    Posted June 13, 2014 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    KG,

    GTFO!!!!


  • Recent Comments

  • Archives

    • 2014 (983)
    • 2013 (679)
    • 2012 (550)
    • 2011 (512)
    • 2010 (309)
    • 2009 (174)
    • 2008 (47)
  •