Season 4 Finale – The Children – Recap
By Ours is the Fury on in Recap.

Arya, The Children

Tonight’s season finale of Game of Thrones was loaded with shockers for everyone, including fans of the books. Check out our book readers recap to see what we thought, and stop in to share your opinions on “The Children” in the comments section below!

Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. As such the post itself and the comments will contain spoilers. If you haven’t read the books yet, you can discuss this episode in our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!


Jon and Mance

Picking up right where we left off in last week’s episode, Jon Snow heads into Mance Rayder’s camp with his plan to assassinate the King Beyond the Wall. Jon claims to be offering peace when he’s brought before Mance, in order to get close to him, but it doesn’t take wily Mance too long to suss out Jon’s true intentions. However, before Jon gets too deep into hot water, the wildling base camp is attacked by unknown soldiers on horses riding down and slaughtering the wildlings easily.

Stannis Davos etc

Mance surrenders, not wanting to lose any more of his people, and he and Jon are introduced to the person who has brought this new army into play: King Stannis Baratheon, along with his advisor Davos. Stannis asks Jon’s opinion on how to handle Mance, and accepts Jon’s recommendation of taking the wildling leader prisoner, and of burning their dead.

Qyburn and the Mountain

Gregor Clegane lingers near death as a result of hi injuries from the duel with the Red Viper. Oberyn’s spear was poisoned, and Qyburn and Grand Maester Pycelle are debating their patient. Pycelle thinks it’s hopeless, but Qyburn, a man tossed out by the maesters of the Citadel, does not agree. He believes he can improve the Mountain’s condition with his unusual methods; Cersei grants her permission.

Tywin Lannister presses the issue of Cersei’s engagement to Loras Tyrell. Cersei is adamant that the marriage won’t happen and she refuses to be shipped off to Highgarden; her presence is needed in King’s Landing with Tommen. Cersei has another card to play: she threatens to publicly expose the truth of her relationship with Jaime, destroying Tywin’s legacy, if he doesn’t agree to her wishes. Quietly stunned by her revelations and threat, Tywin concedes.

Flush with her victory, Cersei rushes to Jaime in the White Tower to share it with him. After arguing about Tyrion briefly, she brushes that aside to celebrate her win over Tywin. She kissing Jaime passionately, uncaring who sees them now, and they have sex on the table in the Kingsguard tower room.

140615-ep40-dany-1024

After dealing with a man who wishes to sell himself back into slavery because freedom has brought him only hardship, Daenerys learns from another citizen of Meereen that one of her dragons has killed a three year old child. The black dragon called ‘the winged shadow’ is responsible, but hasn’t been seen in days. The other two are living beneath the pyramid. Dany visits them, and makes the painful decision to chain up her dangerous children, for the safety of others.

The men of the Night’s Watch lay out their dead in the courtyard, including Pyp and Grenn. Stannis and his retinue are in attendance. Jon and others set the pyre ablaze, and through the flames, Jon and the red priestess Melisandre lock eyes.

Melisandre

Afterward Jon visits Tormund, who has survived the battle and had his wounds tended to. They discuss Ygritte and saying goodbye, and Tormund remarks on how he knew Ygritte loved Jon because all she ever talked about was killing Jon. He also insists that Ygritte belongs in the real North. When it’s Ygritte’s turn for a funeral, Jon lays her out in the woods to the north of the wall before lighting her funeral pyre.

Hodor

After endless trudging through the snow, Bran’s band of travelers have finally arrived at the weirwood heart tree of’ his vision. As they head toward it, a hand bursts through the snow and grabs hold of Jojen. It’s a wight, and it’s just the first of several. Jojen, Meera, Bran and Hodor are all under attack, with Meera fighting them off hard. Bran decides to warg into Hodor to use his strength and succeeds in knocking some aside but the undead skeletal creatures are still coming. Riding inside Hodor, Bran’s body is unattended, and Jojen screams at him to save himself. Unaware of the danger to his own body, Jojen doesn’t realize the shattered partial skeleton by him is moving- and it has a knife. The wight stabs Jojen repeatedly in the gut, as two more wights rush at Bran, only to be blown apart by fireballs.

cotf

“Come with me, Brandon Stark,” says the childlike creature. And referring to Jojen,”He is lost.” Meera is forced to leave behind her brother’s body. The child throws a ball of fire back at Jojen, presumably to keep him from reanimating as a wight, and helps the others escape into a cave guarded by magic. They explain then that the First Men called their people “the Children.”

Led by the Child through tunnels of overgrown roots, Bran, Hodor and Meera find a man growing into a tree, and Bran then understands.

“You’re the Three-Eyed Raven.”

The Three-Eyed Raven explains he’s been watching them all their lives, and that Jojen knew what would happen to them if he came on the journey. Jojen died so that Bran could find what he had lost.

“You’re going to help me walk again?”
“You’ll never walk again. But you will fly.”

Brienne and Hound

Traveling through the Vale, Brienne and Pod have misplaced their horses and run into a girl practicing with her sword. Arya is intrigued by Brienne, and they share the names of their swords and discuss their fathers. The Hound joins the group, and Pod recognizes him, causing Brienne to realize that she’s been talking with Arya Stark. The Hound isn’t willing to give Arya over to Brienne, since Arya has no family left to bring her to and Brienne has a connection with the Lannisters. They draw their swords and the fight gets ugly fast with the Hound reminding Brienne that he’s no ser, and the woman responding in kind, biting his ear off for good measure. Pummeling each other, Brienne gets the upper hand until the Hound is backed up to a cliff edge. He goes over, tumbling down and breaking his leg.

Hounddying

Arya is nowhere to be found when Brienne and Pod look for her. She turns up soon after they leave, to sit with the Hound as he suffers, certain his death is coming. He urges her to kill him, egging her on with taunts about Mycah the butcher’s boy and her sister, but Arya stares without emotion, leaving the Hound to plead without providing any mercy. Instead she takes his bag of gold, and abandons him to die slowly and alone.

Tyrion

In the Black Cells, Tyrion’s surprised to find his visitor is his brother Jaime, helping him escape with the aid of Varys. The brothers part affectionately, and Tyrion decides that before leaving the city, he’s going to pay a visit to his father. But in his father’s chambers, he finds something unexpected- Shae, occupying Tywin’s bed. Feeling threatened, Shae grabs a knife to defend herself, and Tyrion tries to disarm her, straddling her body. He knocks the knife away from her, and strangles her using the thick golden chain she’s wearing.

Spying a crossbow hanging on the wall, Tyrion grabs it and seeks out who he came for. He finds his father in the privy. Tywin maintains his calm, telling Tyrion he respects his will to survive, claiming he never would’ve let him be executed. Tyrion admits to killing Shae, but Tywin is uncaring, as she was simply a “whore.” Tyrion raises the crossbow again, and continues the conversation. Tywin calls Shae a whore again and this time Tyrion fires a bolt. And soon after another, ending Tywin Lannister on the privy.

The bells in King’s Landing ring, but Tyrion is safely escaping on a ship with Varys. (Side question: Is this the same box Varys used for his magician friend or does Varys have a lot of man-boxes lying around?)

Braavos

On the coast, Arya spies a ship and approaches the captain, asking for passage to the Wall. He refuses, citing the war and pirates, and informs her he’s going home to Braavos. Recognizing the name of the Free City, Arya remembers something else.
Pulling out the iron coin she was given by Jaqen H’ghar, she gives it to the captain, whose demeanor instantly changes. “Valar morghulis,” she says, as the assassin told her should should.

“Valar dohaeris,” the captain replies, accepting the iron coin as passage. Arya has her own cabin and is on her way to Braavos.

SoldiersWhat I Liked

A clash of kings – I loved the opening scenes with Stannis and Mance, and the fighting. I wish we’d seen more of Ciarán Hinds and Stephen Dillane both this year, and really enjoyed the characterization we got to see here, however brief. The moment between Jon and Stannis was a great teaser of things to come, I hope.

The wight attack – I’m sure some will be very upset about Jojen dying early (or at all) but to me, he’s a dead man walking in the books, and it’s just a matter of time. So it doesn’t feel like a drastic alteration. The fight was amazing, and it was great to see Meera getting to kick ass along with Hodor/Bran and Summer getting a piece of the action. All the special effects were outstanding.

Brienne vs the Hound – knock-down dirty brawl between two not-a-knights

Rory McCann – I don’t know when/if we’ll be seeing him again, but he turned in a hell of a performance tonight.

The Three-Eyed Raven scene- I cried. Really. It was perfect.

The funerals – I’m glad they took the time to acknowledge the losses of the Night’s Watch men (with the intriguing moment of Melisandre seeing Jon through the flames) and Ygritte.

The Children – the design of the children of the forest is very cool. I hope we see more next year.

What I Didn’t Like

Still no Stoneheart? – I guess she could turn up next year, but the longer the show takes to introduce her, the less relevant she becomes, which makes me worry more and more that they’re simply not going to have the character. And I don’t like that. It doesn’t ruin the entire finale; it’s just a disappointment.

Cersei & Jaime – The Cersei and Jaime scene left me cold and uncomfortable. Everyone has their opinion on the controversy, but the fallout from “Breaker of Chains” is undeniable. I don’t see their relationship the same way anymore, and besides that, this felt like wasted time in a packed episode. Cersei’s power play-confession with Tywin on the other hand, though a change, was one I enjoyed.

The Butterfly Effect: Tysha – The show hasn’t been talking about Tysha at all, since Tyrion told the tale of his first wife in the first season. His first marriage has been alluded to a couple times, but that’s it. A non-ASOIAF-reader is unlikely to recall it. So in this episode, we didn’t have Jaime confessing to have deceived Tyrion about Tysha. (Also severing Tyrion’s last stable relationship- his one with Jaime.) And so when Tyrion confronted Tywin, instead it’s Shae that’s being called a whore. And I have a very hard time taking Tyrion being incensed on Shae’s behalf seriously when he just killed her. Tyrion also spends a lot of time in ADWD looking back at his past, and wondering, “Where do whores go?” in the hopes that he might find Tysha eventually. That’s all effectively been written out here.


841 Comments

  1. French Guy
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    No ls? Fuck hbo and d and d

  2. jentario
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm. I don’t know what to say.
    This leaves room for Stomeheart next season, or else what the hell is the point in Brienne and Pod.
    I really liked the wight scene. Would have loved for the Three Eyed Raven to have one eye, though. It kind of makes no sense since he did say he had a thousand eyes and one. Oh well.

    Great episode overall, but I’m sure it’ll drive a lot of book readers insane.

  3. freoduwebbe
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    STANNIS

    loved it.

  4. Clob
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Not the exact final scene I expected, but I’ve been wanting that one for the whole season so I can’t complain.

  5. Ryan John
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Great episode, but I’m kinda bummed.

  6. jentario
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Oh yeah, Stannis was great.
    And Kit killed it as Jon Snow this season.
    And Peter as Tyrion. But no Tysha=fan rage.

    Recaps always tell.

  7. Happy Hollyoak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    That absolutely blew my mind.

    In my opinion, that was the best episode the series has done so far. In comparison to last week, I am very happy.

    Now where is the person who is going to say that the fireballs were cheesy?

    I thought it was absolutlely trippy and mind-blowing!

  8. Ashara D
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Emmys for Dinklage, Gwendolyn and Rory!! That was GREAT!!

    Ready to watch again…

  9. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    So, where are you? All of those who were 100% sure that LS was going to appear at the end. Nothing to say?

    Cue the drama, the crying and the bitching towards D&D and HBO.

  10. Krh
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    That was what they considered the best episode of the season? I found that really anticlimactic. I thought Hazzea and the dragons, Arya and Tyrion’s scenes were really poorly executed. The only segment I liked was Bran’s.

  11. jentario
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Drogon namedrop!
    And Emilia did some solid acting in the end there.

  12. Anguissette1979
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Rory McCann fucking KILLED IT. I guess that means he still has a role to play later on. Gravedigger vs. Robert Strong or we riot!

  13. helen
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink
  14. Josh
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Great episode. Definitely disappointing that there was no LS. Honestly it could have fit in the end, especially if you cut out half of the Jon scenes which were just sort of “there”….I guess we’ll get it next season instead but still.

  15. Laurent Guillemard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    This blew my mind. They completely got away from the books. That was awesome.

  16. Rebecca
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    so, so disappointed by the lack of Lady Stoneheart :(

  17. Clob
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    I’ve never been a huge Stannis or Davos fan but I’ll admit I loved the scene with them riding up through the smoke.

  18. Victor
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know… It was good, but the overload of storyline endings made this episode feel a little too crowded. That’s just me, though.

  19. GB
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Wow…that fight between Sandor and Brienne was epic. Loved the Bran sequence, really liked the arrival of Stannis’ army and enjoyed tremendously Tyrion’s revenge on Shae and Tywin…is Tywin dead? Good to see Varys finally. Wonderful ending to show Arya on her way to Bravos. Going to be a long wait until next eason, but I really like how they finished this one.

  20. Robar
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    WHERE THE FUCK IS SHEEE?!?!??! WTF DUDE, WHERE IS SHE?!?!

    *rants for the next year*

  21. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Good acting by all. Good shots. Bummed the season is over. I could voice some concerns but I’m gonna let the episode settle for a while.

    1000 eyes and one? Not quite right….old man.

  22. loco73
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Wow…an amazing season finale capping an amazing season! What the hell am I going to do now!

    To much to think about…I’m going for a second viewing!

  23. HouseMartellBitches
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    10/10

    Why no Stoneheart?????

    Fucking awesome episode though!

    And Mel, looking through the flames at Jon!!!!!!

    I fucking screamed!

    Hopefully the Cersei/Jamie stuff gets rid of the rape controversy, though lack of Soneheart is gonna make 10 months hell.

  24. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    So is it safe to say lady stoneheart is officially cut from the show? Theyd never bring her back mid season and next season finale is WAY too late. Plus, if jaime is in dorne next season theres no way brienne and pod are going to find him. Also, what the heck are brienne and pod going to do next season? I guess we move into a dream of spring storyline with them since theyre cutting the first part of their winds of winter line…?

  25. Happy Hollyoak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and Stannis’ riding in with his army, THAT was a way better battle sequence than last week!

  26. hedonism
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Awesome episode except for another eh ending, closing scenes are suppose to be awesome not forgettable, what the fuck is a matter with D&D the last two seasons, the closings are not near the wtf awesomeness as the first two seasons. Tell me D&D what is so fraking hard about creating an awesome wtf ending to a season which will be talked about for weeks afterwards. Don’t you dudes realize the non-LS appearance will create negative backlash, Jesus H Christ D&D, you blew it again for the second straight year at least when it comes to endings..

  27. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Hated the wight scene. Terrible CGI. Loved Arya selling to Braavos. Also really like The Hound vs Brienne. Dino is going to be so pissed! Lol

  28. NOLADY
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Dropped like a rock from the top of the Eiffel tower.
    No Lady Stoneheart?
    No Jon Snow nomination?
    No Tysha? Not even a minuscule fight with Jaime?
    Dungeons and Dragons are truly the hackest of hacks.
    All that Craster’s Keep filler sure was worth it, right?

  29. Stony♥
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    The episode was epic. Everything I predicted happened (except for Stoneheart, which makes me mad), but seriously, it was so canon, and the uncanon parts were amazing (Cersei was super awesome and Jojen’s death wasn’t necessary, but I think it fitted the story).

    So, the expensive CGI was for the multiple Spinels from Killer Instict?

  30. Valar Morghulis
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Awesome!!!! So sad to see jojen get blown up but overall this ep had great action and tugged at the heart strings. Countdown begins 42 weeks til we continue our journey eh

  31. eL
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Awesome finale! Daenerys and her dragons had me misty eyed. I was expecting the three-eyed crow to have a much different look.

  32. house of snow
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Well I’m not worried about ls. Everything still suggests its going to happen, maybe the first scene of next year even.

  33. HouseMartellBitches
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and MASSIVE Jojen spoilers there!

    Wanna bet Bran eats Jojenpaste?

  34. Mark
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    I couldn’t care less about Stoneheart but I hope someone sends Benioff and Weiss a Faceless Man who tells them “Tysha sends her regards”.

  35. The Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    Amazing finale. The last 2 hours of this season were just fantastic.

  36. JoffreyTrueKing
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    I’m mad for Stoneheart, but I’m madder for Jaime and Tyrion. I mean, this changes much of his arc for next season, I wonder if they’ll take Tywin’s death as an excuse for his failed relationship with Cersei.

    And, fuck, where’s my Lady SH? /angry.

    It could be a great way to finish S05E01 though. /yeahsure

    *keeps dreaming*

    *cries himself to sleep*

  37. Andrew
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    The only thing I didn’t like was that now we’ll have to deal with idiot book purists for a whole year. I’m already dreading it.

  38. BranSnow
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Wow. Did the children shoot fireballs in the show? Wow. Cheap. I new they wouldn’t be creative enough to work SH in the show.

  39. Manuel Paredes
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I never complain about GoT, but there are several missed opportunities:

    - No Melissandre fancy magic up north
    - No Coldhands
    - No ancient looking Bloodraven
    - No Jaime revealing Tyrion that his ex wife was not a whore.
    - No “wherever whores goes”
    - No golden shit
    - No Stoneheart

    That said, this is going to be a long year…

  40. The Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Mark:
    I couldn’t care less about Stoneheart but I hope someone sends Benioff and Weiss a Faceless Man who tells them “Tysha sends her regards”.

    The fans would be confused. They kept it simple without changing the type of scene it was.

    They are masters at doing this.

  41. JamesL
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully the writers will confirm or deny whether or not Lady Stoneheart is going to show up in the show after tonights episode so we don’t have to have this debate all next season.

  42. Whit
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I was disappointed by the lack of any mention of Tysha. It felt like the scene suffered for the loss of it.

  43. Nessa
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    If I couldn’t have a LS end, I wanted Arya on the ship. So ths was awesome to me. That music plus her looking out into the open sea was beautiful.

    So glad that Podrick rumor was false.

    Tyrion scenes felt a bit rushed to me though. Did love the bit with Varys starting back for the castle and then turning around.

    Bran’s scene! Amazing. Made me sit up and get really in to it. Bye bye Jojen. I’m currently only halfway through adwd (pretty spoiled on the bug stuff though) so I have no clue how he comes into play a little later.

    Got a little teary watching my beautiful Grenn’s funeral. And now their watch has ended.

  44. house of snow
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Also mance was a million times better this year.

  45. Vieira151
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Well, based on where Brienne and Pod ended up I can see them having Stoneheart as the intro scene to episode 1 next season.

  46. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    I was 50/50 on whether it would be in or not, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a stupid decision on their part. I’m honestly surprised this time, not at D&D as writers, but as fans of A Song of Ice and Fire. They are well known for loving everything about the third book, so I find it hard to believe they’d both look at each other and go “Yeah, let’s not give showwatchers the same awesome shock we got!”

    I’ve heard the reasons for cutting LS, and I simply disagree. There are more reasons to do it like the book. Sorry, but not sorry. Still a great episode.

  47. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    So Varys and Tyrion are boat buddies now? Did i misinterpret? If i’m right and they are going to be boat buddies, we might have another great roadtrip pairing.

  48. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    The Jon scenes were on point. Stannis’ army looked awesome. The Bran scene had some really shotty CGI and I don’t know how I felt about the skeletons. Im sure people will bitch about them killing Jojen but I think we all saw that coming.

    This episode managed to make me HATE Daenerys where previously I only disliked her… what a stupid bitch.

    The Tyrion scene felt a little rushed at first and Im slightly disappointed we didnt get “wherever whores go” or Tysha, but Im sure what they did made more sense for viewers. Varys changing his mind and getting on the ship was great; Im sure theyll stick him with Tyrion for a while next season.

    Brienne and Hound was awesome and Arya Hound was great.

    The end was the biggest let down in the entire series. I kid you not, that was worse than crowd surfing. ARYA GETTING ON A BOAT? REALLY? I have to wait 10 months with Arya getting on a boat to hold me over? Whether Stoneheart is cut or not, I think D&D did themselves and the show a complete disservice by not ending that season with Stoneheart – it could have been so much more than it was.

  49. James
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    WTF now we’re all going to have to go through another year of wondering whether LS will be shown or whether she’s going to be cut. Obviously this doesn’t mean she’s cut, it just means they could be saving her for a reveal later. BASTARDS!!! I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR THAT SCENE FOR YEARS! I know not everyone likes it but for me it was one of the most unexpected things.

  50. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Manuel Paredes:
    I never complain about GoT, but there are several missed opportunities:

    - No Melissandre fancy magic up north
    - No Coldhands
    - No ancient looking Bloodraven
    - No Jaime revealing Tyrion that his ex wife was not a whore.
    - No “wherever whores goes”
    - No golden shit
    - No Stoneheart

    That said, this is going to be a long year…

    No Horn of Joramund

  51. HouseMartellBitches
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Mark,

    I really hope Tysha comes back into it somehow. Maybe Varys knows something.

    And wont that be a way to introduce the Griff’s. THAT has been decently well foreshadowed, plus, it gives the awesome Conleth something to do and still make it back in time for Kevan!

  52. Maxwell James
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm. Well, the Brienne/Hound fight and it’s aftermath was inspired. Rory McCann was amazing this season and I desperately hope he’ll be back somehow. Maisie and Gwendolyn hit it out of the park as usual.

    But the rest was… meh. I have serious misgivings about the Shae scene in particular, but will wait to see how they follow up on it next year. No Tysha and nothing but good feelings between the Lannister boys doesn’t make sense to me either, plus I’m tiring of Varys as a white hat. And of course, no LS, at least not yet.

    Also think the episode as a whole needed better editing. Presenting each storyline on its own, with no breaks, made for ineffective pacing.

  53. utiz4321
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Hate the episode, the first I can say that about. Don’t care about LS, do care about the Jamie tyrion stuff. Sorry that was a supper big miss for me the betryal of his brother and then Shea was epic. I have 100 percent loved the show and all the changes until now. Sorry just can’t get over it.

  54. Gerr
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Terrible episode. That Stannis scene so underwhelming, they really should have had that at the end of episode 9. That horrible CGI. Why exclude Tysha and Tyrion’s outburst?

  55. house of snow
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Oh by the way mance is going to poison ramsey

  56. KG
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Awesome fight between the Hound and Brienne. Very well designed, very well performed. And uh … seeya, Jojen. Never liked you much in the books or the show. (shrug)

  57. wais
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Book readers please stop whining, I couldn’t be happier about the changes they made and I hope they make bigger changes in the seasons to come.

  58. ak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    varys heading back towards the ship probably means no kevan either?

  59. Rebecca
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Episode had a lot of good parts but I am so disappointed by the lack of Lady Stoneheart and cutting the whole conversation between Tyrion & Jaime. Also did Varys get on that boat at the end?

  60. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Just facetimed my unsullied friend. Had her watch 39 episode over the last two weeks to catch up. She thought the finale was underwhelming

  61. Winter Soldier
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Great episode, but more than disappointed by the ending with the absence of LS. Seriously, I never expected it to happen in the books and it was one of the few things that wasn’t spoiled for me by the lot of asshole trolls who run around spoiling things just for shits and giggles.

    Whatever, next year. Maybe.

    They included Dr. Frankenstein and Gregor Clegane though…c’mon.

  62. Nessa
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Also forgot to mention how much I loved the Brienne/Arya exchange. I was smiling through their stories and Arya’s grin like “Yes, finally, she gets it! This is who I am and who I want to be too.”

  63. Commenter
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Emmy vote for Lena Headey.

  64. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    hedonism:
    Awesome episode except for another eh ending, closing scenes are suppose to be awesome not forgettable, what the fuck is a matter with D&D the last two seasons, the closings are not near the wtf awesomeness as the first two seasons. Tell me D&D what is so fraking hard about creating an awesome wtf ending to a season which will be talked about for weeks afterwards. Don’t you dudes realize the non-LS appearance will create negative backlash, Jesus H Christ D&D, you blew it again for the second straight year at least when it comes to endings..

    I guess that’s why the ratings fell this season.

    Oh wait.

  65. Mark
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    It is the single motivating factor of Tyrion’s character. They even alluded to it in 407 when Jaime speaks with Tyrion. Someone actually loved him for who he was, not for being a Lannister. #NOONEUNDERSTAANDS

  66. KG
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Nope. The elf-analogue blew him up like Tim the freakin’ Enchanter.

    … And it was good.

    HouseMartellBitches:
    Oh, and MASSIVE Jojen spoilers there!

    Wanna bet Bran eats Jojenpaste?

  67. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Gerr,

    I loved the Stannis scene. But I agree, I would have liked to see that in Episode 9 instead

  68. Wolfsbane
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    They certainly are. Nobody can dumb down a scene like D&D.

  69. Josh
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    My only issue with no LS is that This season has really had a lot of Cat looming over it; Sansa’s wholes storyline was in the shadow of Cat, Brienne’s mission, even part’s of tonight’s episode. When(if..) she does show up next season, it will be two years after she’s died, after a hiatus break. This was “supposedly” subtly building towards Cat, now next season it will be much more abrupt.

    We’ll hear about Tysha next season. Not too worried about that one.

  70. Dorian
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Sorry, but who cares about Tysha. Like Shae said back in Season 1 – he should’ve known she was a whore. Someone who almost got raped doesn’t invite someone into her bed immediately after. I always thought it would’ve been clunky as hell to work that into Jaime/Tyrion/Tywin and I’m glad they dropped it.

  71. gewa76
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Farewell purists. Obviously the show is not even worth your time anymore. Why nitpick about no LS when they didn’t even mention Tysha and there will be no Jojenpaste?

  72. King Stannis
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    That was a great episode!!! Those that say was bad because some mute does not show up need to get over it. Move on because I don’t want to keep seeing all the crying again when season 5 comes back.

    Want stoneheart? Read the fucking books.

    Want to be entertain for an hour on TV? Stay & watch the show.

  73. Arrowtic
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Really glad that Stoneheart didn’t make it this season ! It would be way better if we have her during next season because :
    1 . It makes such a hype while she doesn’t have that big a role(at least until the end of adwd) and she’s there for few chapters .
    2 . Next season lacks climatic events(unless they add stuff from TWOW) and well Lady Stoneheart is one of the most shocking events of all .
    For god sake people , just grow up . Nagging like this all over the internet while we all knew she was probably out .

  74. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Where do whores go? Where is LS? Where is Drogon flying away?

  75. Amanda M
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    So… I liked that episode, but I set my expectations WAY too high. They TOTALLY screwed everything up with that Brienne/Hound fight, they wasted too much time on Dany, rushed through Tyrion’s escape. And no Tysha, but I personally don’t see that as super major. The only thing it took away was Tyrion telling Jaime about Cersei’s infidelity, and I’m sure Jaime has other ways to find out about that next season… I guess Tyrion’s hatred toward Jaime could be viewed as somewhat major, but I’m more upset about the pacing issues and the Brienne and Hound stuff) It was a decent episode, but…

  76. Kristine M.
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    It was a good episode but count me as one of the book readers who is a little disappointed. The meeting of Hound & Brienne was good but I really wanted to see the Brotherhood. And 2 of my favorite lines in the entire series were missing!! How will Tyrion properly mope around Pentos without wondering where whores go?

  77. The Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    The comments here are proof that even if something is near perfection, you can still find people to complain about it.

    Going to have to stay away from these comments for next season.

  78. Black Dredd
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    Overall I like the Tyrion with Tywin scene and the Bran scene the most.
    Bran’s the most badass character in the series, and I love how Isaac masterfully handled the scene.
    Tyrion killing Shae… just heart breaking.

  79. JD
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    It was a good episode, definitely not a great episode, im tired of the fanboys on this site who kiss ass and think every episode is perfect, when it is not, the ending scene of a finale is everything, the first 2 seasons they knocked it out of the park, the last 2 have been anticlimactic.

    Also, im no purist but can someone tell me how not including Tysha improved the scene? it didnt & IMO it was poorly executed.

    Same with killing Jojen, what was the point? We have no Coldhands & now they have killed Jojen.. very nice.

    Last but not least, this was the shortest season ever, i think of how much could have been covered, Balon, more Yara, Riverrun, LS, such a wasted opportunity, there were 4 episodes that ran 51 minutes, 1 ran 50, and last week was 48 minutes of actual show, that is ridiculous, go ahead and tell me to stop watching but its true

    OH & i think Balon is gonna stay alive in the show to avoid the entire kingsmoot plot, GET OVER Stoneheart because she isnt going to happen, and neither will Coldhands.

    The fanboys will call me all kinds of things for this, but its my opinion, this would have been the best season yet had it not been for a few fatal errors in the last 2 episodes.

  80. hedonism
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Now for what I loved about tonight, eveything else but the ending.

    Jaime and Cersei finally having a truly romantic moment, unless Cersei is just playing him again.

    Mel’s eyes widening when she glimpses Jon through the fire:)

    Hound/Brienne fight, that was absolutely the funniest fight sequence (in a good way) yet. Boy Brienne cannot accept losing a fight to anyone.

    Stannis, Stannis, I loved the epic overhead shot of his heavy horse attacking from both sides, and Mance the way he stood to his beliefs.

    Shirreen sighting, wonder whats in store for little stag next year.

    The CoTF, WW scene, totally epic, though the 3 eyed dude wasn’t near as freaking frightening as the image the books create.

    The best for last, Tywin and Tyrion, yesssss.
    But Vary’s decided to leave along with Tyrion once the bells rung, wonder what butterfly effect that will entail.

    Concerning butterfly effects, the renewed vows between Cersei and Jaime definitely shake up the Riverlands plot.

    Come on D&D can you straighten up your act and give us a wtf awesomely shocking finale next season, I mean what is so hard about giving something the fans and viewers want to see for a closing scene, tell me.

  81. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    HOW can they ruin the greatest (IMHO) Tyrion scene in the books due to, what, running out of time? Adding a bunch of other crap that wasn’t needed? Tyrion still had plenty of motivation shown to want to kill Tywin, but without the Tysha tie-in it was just anticlimactic to me. Besides being hurried….no chat with Jaime, Varys running around without a disguise, Tyrion not hurrying to the Tower of the Hand, oh hell. You all know what I’m talking about. 5 extra minutes could have made all the difference.

  82. Rygar
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Nope. The elf-analogue blew him up like Tim the freakin’ Enchanter.

    … And it was good.

    Tim. You just blew my mind.

    I am so happy right now. Now terrible zombie idea. D&D know their shit and are honing their craft.

  83. Michel
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    I really loved the episode! Fuck Stoneheart, I don’t carefor now, it was very awesome. I won’t talk about SH until 5×05, if she doesn’t appear until that, she is officially cut IMO.

    WOW, that Jojen death really got me… I know he was bad in the books, but I had hope about him.

    So, they finally used “For The Realm”! Right!?

    The only thing I didn’t like was Bloodraven, he seemed to human for me, like a 60 years old dude guy.

    And IDK about Brienne fight with the Hound, it was amazing, but that scene made me dislike her, she was a jerk. I was with the Hound, I found his motives the best. And that is confusing, because it never happens in the books and I still love her there.

  84. Karl
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    People are complaining about a character that only appeared in one book (A Feast For Crows) that is not appearing in a series which has too many characters as it is and will have more joining next season. I can’t see Stoneheart doing a lot in the books for them to want to include her.

  85. Queenofthorns
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Lena Headey trolled us all!

    Well, anyway, great episode. Loved most of the changes. I couldn’t envision the hound meets Brienne scene working, but they totally made it work.

    Well, LS will be next season I guess! Makes sense not to show her until she’s relevant.

    Killing Shae was made less terrible since she tried to preemptively defend herself and then he apologized, worked for show!Tyrion.

    Well handled in general

    Btw why the hell didn’t Dany just tell the guys master he has to fukin pay him? IDGI

  86. Strider
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Good finale. Some awesome scenes, and great shots. Loved Brienne kicking the shit out of the Hound. Meera badass. Summer ripping skeletons. Stannis at the Wall!

    The scene between Jon, Mance, Davos, Stannis. I got to see that one again. Tremendous.

    Killing Shae was something incredible. I was floored at both. Tyrion’s “I’m sorry”… No comment for Peter’s acting.

    Oh, can I just say my hat is off to Lena! Her scene with Dance whoa! She stood toe to toe with him and her Cersei was excellent!

    HouseMartellBitches:
    And Mel, looking through the flames at Jon!!!!!!

    I fucking screamed.

    YOU. WERE. NOT. ALONE.

  87. Rygar
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    And BTW Qyburn looks sexy with that ‘do.

  88. Neoammiechan
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    I just wanna know one thing…how the heck did Stannis end up on the OTHER side of the wall? I dun remember that happening in the books, didn’t he show up at castle black as the fight raged on? Just didnt make much sense to me.
    Really gotta say I loved the Brienne/Hound fight tho- really enjoyed that venture outside of book territory. RIP Jojen =(

  89. Lyle Sandok
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Vieira151,

    I can see intro or end of the first episode for Lady Stoneheart. Disappointed a little, still great show.

  90. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Where the hell is Daario? Still in Yunkai?

    Also, I’m worried about Euron now that they did not give us the Horn of Joramund. I’m hoping since the horn was a fake it wasn’t included in the episode. Wish they did not rush the Tyrion scene. That came out of left field. No time to bask in Tyrion’s rage at all.

  91. utiz4321
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Dorian,

    The stories importances has nothing to do with the girl and everything to do with Jamie and tyrion sorry but the story lost a lot by its exclusion.

  92. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Neoammiechan,

    No Stannis showed up in the books exactly as he did on the show, when Jon and Mance were parlying. Ur misremembering

  93. Winter Soldier
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Great finale, but I wanted LS I really did. It was one of the few things that wasn’t spoiled for me by internet trolls. I couldn’t help but finally think things were going to turn around when I read the epilogue of ASOS and it left me legitimately happy, at the end of this episode it was just not the same.

    I can’t believe they included Dr. Frankenstein and the Clegane monster and left out LS.

  94. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    To all those who are bitching, i give you this:
    Adaptation – Something that is changed or modified to suit new conditions or needs

  95. hedonism
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Arrowtic,

    I am more upset it was another forgettable closing scene like last year than lack of you know who. Viewers are wanting a wtf closing scene. It’s good PR too, has the internet buzzing for weeks afterward.

  96. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    utiz4321:
    Dorian,

    The stories importances has nothing to do with the girl and everything to do with Jamie and tyrion sorry but the story lost a lot by its exclusion.

    Agree

  97. I Read Books
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Ugh. So much of that finale was great. And yet, I can’t help but be disappointed. This isn’t a little adaptation quibble we’re talking about. This is one of the biggest moments of the entire series, and it’s somehow completely sidestepped by the showrunners. Now maybe, they’re saving it for next season, but why? It fits perfectly at the end of the third book/fourth season where it is. And because they’ve cut it, a ton of people will have it spoiled for them by next season and it won’t be a surprise. I’d feel better if David or Dan or Bryan Cogman would give us an explanation, but I doubt it will happen.

    Also, can we please talk about how we didn’t get any mention of Tysha, or “wherever whores go”? So sad right now.

  98. Bebopanonymous
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    A- episode. Would have been an A+ if not for two things. The story of Tysha should have been in there. Devalued Tyrion’s overall story in my opinion. And just don’t understand not putting LS in. That would have been the perfect ending. The worry I now have is, after a full season it is going to feel like she died months ago show time. She’d be nothing but bones by time they find her. I guess her revival wont be in. Or a flashback maybe? There were many good things in this episode, and I know its kind of nit-picking, but those two things really should have been in.

  99. mariamb
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    house of snow:
    Also mance was a million times better this year.

    Absolutely he was. This was the Mance I’ve been waiting for. And no Dalla, Val or baby in the tent.

    Stannis’ arrival was appropriately awesome as was Mel looking at Jon thru the flames. I look forward to the Northern story line next year with all of these wonderful characters in one place.

    Very sad to lose Jojen. I didn’t expect that this season. TBS was a perfect piece of casting. He brought depth to that role. I will miss him.

    Loved the meet-up with Bloodraven. Very well done. Meera is a bad-ass and I adore her.

  100. Hotpie
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Peter Dinklage, Charles Dance, Isaac and Roy deserve major credits for this episode.

  101. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    I knew there’d be some whiners in here. It was a great finale. It didn’t quite top the dragon birth for finale moments but otherwise it was one of the best episodes.

    I’ll get few the negatives out of the way first.

    No LS although I prepare myself for that.

    I wish they didn’t kill Jojen already. Maybe it was needed to make room for new actors next season?

    The skeleton wights looked a little cheesy. It reminded me of Army of Darkness which is a fantastic movie but it’s campy. GoT isn’t supposed to be campy. I liked Leaf’s fireballs though!

  102. The Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    The Unburnt:
    HOW can they ruin the greatest (IMHO) Tyrion scene in the books due to, what, running out of time? Adding a bunch of other crap that wasn’t needed? Tyrion still had plenty of motivation shown to want to kill Tywin, but without the Tysha tie-in it was just anticlimactic to me. Besides being hurried….no chat with Jaime, Varys running around without a disguise, Tyrion not hurrying to the Tower of the Hand, oh hell. You all know what I’m talking about. 5 extra minutes could have made all the difference.

    You think they didn’t cover it because they ran out of time? You think they put together an entire season and then just cut out something from one of the last scenes because they ran out of time? Come on.

    They made the choice not to put it in. And for good reason. It would have confused the fans too much. Same reason they changed “Only Cat” a few episodes before.

    The motivation for Tyrion killing his father was still basically the same. And the scene was just as good because of it.

  103. Strider
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    HouseMartellBitches,

    Sorry, I seem to be quoting or answering to you today! LOL not exactly on purpose I assure you.

    But I thought it was clear the way COTF blew Jojen away that #JojenPaste is no more!

  104. Chris
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    People should try to understand that just because some people didn’t like parts of the episode doesn’t mean they are stupid\crying book purist it just means they have an opinion

  105. BranSnow
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else feel the CotF shooting fireballs was extremely cheap?

  106. Rygar
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Did Cersei just rape Jaime?

  107. Madgreyjoy
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Don’t think I have to put spoilers since this is the sullied page so I’m just gonna go…
    I LOVED the change with Sandor’s death!!! That fight was so epic and for a sec I thought Brieanne got her cheek bit off, but she didn’t. That would have been awesome but it was still epic!
    I loved Jon’s conversation with Mance but could we not have shortened that and got some Tysha? That’s what sets Tyrion off on his rampage in the first place. And no wherever whores go either? Are you kidding. That was the only thing that really made me mad. Now we aren’t going to get any of Tryion looking for Tysha. Wherever whores go. C’mon it’s one line! If they really thought tv peeps would get confused they could have put it in the previously on. That really upset me. Oh and no LS…yeah I can’t even process how epic that would have been had it been the ending. They totally missed an opurtunity with that one. I’ll just be hoping they don’t cut her out of the show completely.

  108. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    The show has done much better. If you want to see something near perfection go rewatch “The Laws of Gods and Men” episode

  109. crabber's son
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    So I feel like ive never been really disappointed with an episode but this episode felt like i was watchin pirates of the Caribbean or something idk i feel like the cgi and lighting were just off. I swear most of this episode was cgi and i guess i jus hate cgi it really takes me out of the mood i realize im jus watchin a tv show. Also reading the books kind of ruins it for me since sooooo much was different. But since i dun like bein negative there were parts i liked and disliked equally.
    What i liked:
    -The first shot of stannis’ army and how the episode opened with jon snow. When i saw all those men i cheered. However when they were going between trees from the top view the cgi took me out of it a little. (Ciaran Hinds looked rly different to me too, he looked thin)
    -The brienne hound fight was rly intense i liked it a lot. One change from the books that im glad happened, although the hound rly took a long shit and didnt care who was out there talking, it was too convenient it wouldve been better if they had the hound shouting or something sayin hold the fuck up dont rush me or something idk.
    -The end with the coin and arya was exciting and the cgi wasnt bad.

    Things I didnt like:
    -The fight outside the cave it was half good and half bad the cgi wasnt terrible but it seemed jus barely short of good which is what i wanted. Did they really have to use skeleton wights? I would of preffered if it was the human looking wights with minimal cgi tbh. Also it was just so bright it made the fight seem like it was out of a disney movie.
    -The three eyed raven was just an old normal looking guy really and the cave was pretty bright, idk i always imagined it as a really dark place and that the three eyed raven would have like tree roots goin through his eye and jus look like more tree than person, in the show he jus looked like a guy sitting in a tree.
    -And ofcourse the book reader special no tysha, no lsh, no mountain screaming in pain, no melisandra burning an eagle, no val.

  110. Dorian
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    utiz4321:
    Dorian,

    The stories importances has nothing to do with the girl and everything to do with Jamie and tyrion sorry but the story lost a lot by its exclusion.

    We know that Tyrion was furious at Jaime for the betrayal, but none of it has any bearings on his actions in Book 5 and there’s no reason to think it’ll bear on any actions he has in later books, either. I can’t fault D&D for cutting it. I always found it an awkward and inappropriately timed revelation in Book 3, and I don’t really mind that Tyrion and Jaime are still BFFs. The same purpose could still be served by having Jaime mad at Tyrion for killing their father, if any purpose is really served at all.

  111. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Madgreyjoy,

    Loved the fight too! But I don’t think The Hound is dead. He’s the gravedigger that Brienne runs into. Cleganebowl is coming

  112. Neoammiechan
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Thanks just had to look it back up, he used the ranger roads to flank mance. makes more sense now- I can see alot of non-book readers wondering the same thing tho since it wasnt explained in the show (at least not yet). It’s been awhile since I’ve read the books, may have to do some re-reading this summer! =)

  113. John W
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Best episode of the season.

  114. Tabes
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    WTF? So now the lack of LS is all anybody will talk about and the likelihood of that being spoiled for unsullied just skyrocketed. That was such a great cliffhanging scene to end such an amazing season with and they go with Arya sailing away instead? Which was cool don’t get me wrong but the final scene shouldn’t be cool, it should be fukin epic. I’ll never understand their decision on this. I feel cheated, and apologies for being another whiny fan, I just need to vent.

  115. Jack Hamilton
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    No LS is one thing but to cut out Jaimes confession to Tyrion R.E Tysha is beyond baffling…

    Otherwise a solid episode.

  116. Andrew B
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    So happy about no LS, hoping it gets cut completely, always thought it was such a silly, tacky choice in the books

  117. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one glad to not have the Tysha stuff in? I’m typically a defender of ADWD but all the “wherever whores go” crap really started to annoy me. All the dwelling Tyrion does on Tysha makes him really unlikeable for a good swath of the book. I’m glad we won’t have to hear him bitching about it all next season.

    A TV show audience is not going to care about a backstory character they haven’t heard much about. They are going to care more about Shae because she was actually in the show. Having her as the motive for the patricide makes perfect sense in the show universe.

  118. Antipurist
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm:
    So, where are you? All of those who were 100% sure that LS was going to appear at the end. Nothing to say?

    Cue the drama, the crying and the bitching towards D&D and HBO.

    She almost has to be in the show, otherwise the Brienne story line won’t work, and who would she summon Jaime to see? But moving it to next season should work better anyway. And if she’s cut, oh well, if you want her that badly go re-read the books.

  119. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    It wouldn’t matter if one was a book purist or not, the final scene with Tyrion and Jaime, then Tyrion and Tywin lacked the depth it should have had for a show of this scope, and seemed remarkably hurried. Especially after ignoring Tyrion for a full episode and most of the finale, it seems like any viewer would have been a bit disappointed with that ending regardless of what all got left out from the book (which was MOST of Tyrion’s motivation, though there was obviously always a bad relationship there).

    If you’re up to speed on the show and complaining about the book readers being disappointed, just go pick up A Storm of Swords and read Tyrion’s last chapter. Then see if that wasn’t a bit of a let down. They’re not exactly heavy reading, nor prohibitively expensive, just read the chapter. It’s one of the best in all the books, IMO, and I was hoping it would get shared as written tonight. As it wasn’t, please go read it for yourselves!

  120. Lex
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Haven’t seen it yet, but man… I wish Alex Graves and D&D would stop overhyping the episodes.

    They did it last week, which is probably why some people felt a bit underwhelmed. And now they did it again, going on and on about how amazing this finale would be. I’m sure it’s good, but that kind of hype + no LS (or Tysha??) is just setting people up for disappointment.

  121. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Dorian,

    The Tyrion scene felt rushed imo. Tyrion killing seeking revenge is completely out of character. Not only that but we were also robbed of a major emotional scene between Jaime and Tyrion with the Tysha reveal. Also, Tysha was set up since season 1. And then reinforced in season 3 (“I WAS WED!”). The scene suffered for it

  122. TheSphinx
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    So we have come to the end of a Storm of Swords. Wtf does HBO do with books 4 and 5. There’s almost no action, certainly no battles. A lot of (great) internal stuff with Arya in Braavos, Bran in the cave and Samwell going to Oldtown. How can they introduce BloodRaven…now that we’ve seen him?

    I guess they can backfill with action in Dorne and the presentation of the Head. Maybe Valerion, Damphair and CroW’s Eye? DarkStar? Is that hoping for too much?

  123. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    hedonism:
    Arrowtic,

    I am more upset it was another forgettable closing scene like last year than lack of you know who. Viewers are wanting a wtf closing scene. It’s good PR too, has the internet buzzing for weeks afterward.

    Agree. I would still be a little disappointed about lack of LS if it had had a good ending, like a huge Bran shocker moment or something, but less so for sure. I cant believe they ended it with another forgettable, trivial bit of unexciting fluff like last year. Arya getting on a ship could have been done in 501, not LS.

  124. Dorian
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Am I the only one glad to not have the Tysha stuff in?I’m typically a defender of ADWD but all the “wherever whores go” crap really started to annoy me.All the dwelling Tyrion does on Tysha makes him really unlikeable for a good swath of the book.I’m glad we won’t have to hear him bitching about it all next season.

    A TV show audience is not going to care about a backstory character they haven’t heard much about.They are going to care more about Shae because she was actually in the show.Having her as the motive for the patricide makes perfect sense in the show universe.

    I agree with you completely – refer to my comments above. It was always awkward and inappropriately timed. One of GRRM’s few missteps in Book 3.

  125. Polish
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Ok for some real complaints (that are not Tysha / LS) — CGI was pretty darn bad. I didn’t like how they made Leaf look. Bloodraven wasn’t as decrepit as I imagined. Jojen died.. wtf? Not a big deal, but still weird.

    At first I was going to bitch about the Brienne + Hound thing… but then I realized it left Arya / Hound’s arch more or less where it was supposed to be anyway. Hound didn’t die-die, and that’s all I could ask for.

    I also predicted that Varys would be going with Tyrion. Sometimes the show alterations are easy to predict when you think pragmatically. Varys disappears for like 2 whole books, then comes back and clearly is important. This was the most logical way to keep him in the show. I’m totally down with it.

    Bran is literally one chapter short of where he was last in the book. Bran spoilers-by-show coming next year.

    I PREDICT they bring Jaqen back to train Arya. What do you guys think?

    Also I’m geeked up for more Reek next year (exciting storyline) and Jon + Stannis interaction which will consume a lot of the time next year I bet.

  126. hedonism
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Sad to see Jojen go, but it was a way more epic and heroic ending than in the books. Shae’s death was difficult to watch, but boy she hated Tyrion at the end, I believe Tyrion realized it was his fault in the end for what she did, because he dumped her for the sake of the Game. The whole scene transpired w/o words, just their facial expressions said everything between them.

    Brilliantly executed, exquisitely acted episode, kudos to cast and crew and yes even to Dan and Dave, even though you two flipped books fans the bird by not including our beloved LS, bastards.

  127. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Am I the only one glad to not have the Tysha stuff in?I’m typically a defender of ADWD but all the “wherever whores go” crap really started to annoy me.All the dwelling Tyrion does on Tysha makes him really unlikeable for a good swath of the book.I’m glad we won’t have to hear him bitching about it all next season.

    A TV show audience is not going to care about a backstory character they haven’t heard much about.They are going to care more about Shae because she was actually in the show.Having her as the motive for the patricide makes perfect sense in the show universe.

    We could have had the Tysha scene without having the “whereever whores go” in the future. One amazing scene does not force us to swallow the bad fallout. Thats the beauty of the adaptation. Unfortunatly we missed out on the great scene today…

  128. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard: You think they didn’t cover it because they ran out of time?You think they put together an entire season and then just cut out something from one of the last scenes because they ran out of time?Come on.

    They made the choice not to put it in.And for good reason.It would have confused the fans too much.Same reason they changed “Only Cat” a few episodes before.

    The motivation for Tyrion killing his father was still basically the same.And the scene was just as good because of it.

    No, obviously they didn’t run out of time, I was being snarky. They just got sloppy. I think it was hurried and bad writing on their part. The motivation wasn’t as strong, period. They made room for that long scene with Tyrion and Jaime and the beetle crushing, they should have made time for this. We didn’t see Tyrion for almost 2 full episodes, and then he got what, 2 minutes? 3? Sloppy as hell. Or even 7 hells.

  129. The Dear Hunter
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    I’ve never felt compelled to complain, but that was awful.

  130. Croat
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    This episode did not disappoint me.
    BUT:
    D&D said they are proud of this ep, IMO they should be ashamed of themselves. They had many opportunities to make this episode even better: Lady Stoneheart, Tysha reveal and so on… I don’ know why didn’t they include this. LS in S5???

  131. gewa76
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Tabes,

    It must be cut, because Hibberd of EW just posted an article defending their decision not to include her. Hibberd is basically D&D’s PR man.

  132. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Jack Hamilton,

    For all we know that storyline in the books doesn’t lead anywhere. Maybe D&D are just doing what they think is best for the story.

  133. Pace
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Man, I really didn’t like this episode, unlike many of your apparently. I thought it was underwhelming, and had some unnecessary changes. Wherever whores go is one of my favorite lines from the books. Also, what are Bran, Sansa, and Brienne going to do next year?

  134. Clob
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard:
    The comments here are proof that even if something is near perfection, you can still find people to complain about it.

    Going to have to stay away from these comments for next season.

    Agreed. It’s getting to be more common it seems. Some can’t accept when anything is different, no matter how well what they do is done. It’s like some think that D&D just sit in a room alone and hammer out a script without any thought or planning. They, along with all of their associates are fans of the books. They wouldn’t be doing this if they weren’t. Do people think that specific things that they don’t include are not also favorites for them? I’m certain they go through topics many, many times and argue over them. If something doesn’t work at a specific time with everything else they may have to push it back or even eliminate it. They shouldn’t force something for a quick buzz if it doesn’t make any sense. The one specific thing on all of our minds, while a big thing when reading, has been rather insignificant in the entire ASoIaF through five books. Yeah, I want it too, as they probably do. We haven’t moved out of its possible window yet, but if it has little more than it has so far in the unpublished work then it isn’t very necessary.

  135. Joh
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    For those who are genuinely concerned –

    Calm down, guys. LS will be in next season. Some of the actors have made a few *subtle* references to it in interviews.

    Season 5 is covering a mix of material from ASOS, AFFC, AND ADWD.

    We have to leave a few shocking moments for next year. ;)

    For the trolls who are throwing tantrums about it when they know very well the character is not cut –

    Leave.

    Go scream out your frustrations with the world somewhere else.

  136. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Not going to read all of the comments right now, as I am sure this episode disappointed many. I’ll just leave my thoughts.

    I was surprised that they left out the Tysha revelation, and how did Tyrion know how to get to the Tower of the Hand? That was sloppily handled. Another 2 or 3 minutes would have really helped to flesh out that scene, Tyrion going nuts. The Cersei stuff was well acted, but I’m not sure I understand why Jaime and her are seemingly back on. Also didn’t like how they didn’t have the Mountain die. I guess Oberyn didn’t have some form of revenge, afterall.

    Arya’s scenes were my favorite. Guess who’s still alive!

    Mance went out easily, but he at least said he didn’t want any more blood. So I can somewhat understand. Jon and Melisandre was good foreshadowing. Can’t wait for the Jon/Stannis/Mel triangle and the true Azor Ahai confusion.

    I love Bloodraven. I didn’t get a good look at whether he had only one eye, and if it was red, but I geeked out at the ‘A thousand eyes, and one’ reference. The Children were less creepy looking then they were described, but don’t really care. Did they throw fire in the books? And I guess Jojen really did die in the books.

    Overall, I really liked the episode. There were some great scenes. Rory McCann may have stolen the season MVP from Pedro Pascal. So glad he didn’t die. Had the KL scenes been absolutely nailed, it would have been my favorite episode of the season. As it is, it is probably tied with ‘Mockingbird’,'Watchers On The Wall’, and ‘Two Swords’, as my favorite episodes of the season. All of them would be in my top 12-15 overall. Season 4 was just below season 1 as my favorite.

    We now enter the unknown, and I think I’m good with that, so long as they keep the main beats close to the books.

  137. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II,

    The issue is not that they have changed the story from the books. The issue is that they missed out on the best possible ending to a season of any show ever and instead put arya on a boat

  138. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Tonight’s episode, while admittedly an awesome one, confirmed a fear I have as someone who’s read the books: I don’t want to see the show’s ending before reading the book one. I thought I was finally accepting that the show will pass up GRRM, but the alterations and cuts and changes are adding up…Tonight really ignited my displeasure at having to watch this version of the story conclude first :/

    I don’t begrudge anyone who doesn’t care, and especially am happy for all the Unsullied who will get to see a great show play out, but I hope you guys understand how tough it is to have read these books for years and years and to know that you’ll have to watch the show conclude it in a different way, thanks to the “butterfly effect”. It’s a little sad.

  139. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Jesus Christ these Show Purists are so God Damn annoying. Book readers have legitimate disappointments and are stating their opinion.

  140. Ryan E
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Amazing finale. Loved the change with Brienne and the hound, surprised ne but mad sense, great scene. Bran scenes were intense. Glad no Ls.

  141. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    I feel strongly that LS will still be in the show. If not, I expect D&D to come out and say so.

  142. Pace
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Also, D+D were straight trolling the book readers with the Hounds infected wound, only to have Brienne kill him.

  143. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    I dont think that people are quite grasping that nobody commenting on this post is upset because David and Dan changed material from the books. If this was the case, people would be crying about Brienne and the Hound or something. Please dont make people being upset that they didnt like parts of the episode or that they thought the ending was a shitty, wasted opportunity about “book purists” when that isnt the case here at all.

  144. jill
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    I watched with 2 unsullied and their favorite parts were the fight with brienne and the hound, as well as Varys nope-ing right the hell out of westeros. I’m interested in how that will play out, as i can’t really remember what Varys gets up to until his next big scene and I’m curious about how the run in with the hound will effect Brienne’s later story. I was expecting LS, so i gasped when the credits started, but I can see, for planning/ financial reasons why they would hold off until the beginning of a new season. No way it’s cut though, just next year.

  145. JamesL
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Polish,

    I PREDICT they bring Jaqen back to train Arya. What do you guys think?

    I would love for them to do that but sadly I think the actor is busy filming another show.

  146. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    I loved the change to having Dany lure the dragons into the catacombs instead. It might not have provided a crazy CGI battle, but it was much more emotional. She had to betray her children :( It made me weepy.

    I loved the fight between Hound and Brienne too. We knew it would end with the Hound at death’s door like the books but I can imagine how tense it must have been for unsullied to have two fan favorites pitted against each other like that.

    I wonder if she’s going to look for Arya next season and that will lead her to the BWB? Maybe they’ll go back to the inn and interview Hot Pie again.

    I’m also relieved they kept in the goodbye scene between Arya and the Hound. Almost exactly like the book. Even the creepy Sansa remark.

  147. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Pace,

    Sandor Clegane ain’t dead. The ending of that scene made a fan of a certain book theory very happy.

  148. Maurice James
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Stannis was amazing but that ending was disappointing.

  149. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    Eddard Stark II,

    The issue is not that they have changed the story from the books. The issue is that they missed out on the best possible ending to a season of any show ever and instead put arya on a boat

    Exactly. It was right there in the book, they could have gone word for word as they did in a few other Tyrion/Tywin scenes. Along with the other issue, being that fans have been waiting to see “wherever whores go” for quite a few years now and just got snubbed. If they’d changed it completely, that’d have been different. But to just abbreviate it was awful.

  150. Jack Hamilton
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II,

    I get that but for me that is the moment where Tyrion snaps in the books as without this i think he would have left twin. Also he tells Jaime about all the people Cersei has been shagging behind his back which keeps playing on Jaimes mind through the next two books. I just don’t see the sense of leaving it out.

  151. Connie
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    I was really surprised they didn’t keep the “Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know” line in after we had the touching romantic reconciliation between brother and sister. (Hahaha)

    They could have easily brought up his wife being a whore/not a whore to set up the “Where do Whores Go?”

    But to be honest? I’m GLAD they dropped it. It was a horrible repetitive line. I get it. Tyrion is in shock following what he went through. But it got really old REALLY fast.

    Also: Love to Hodor for getting an epic fight scene even if it was Bran Warg’d in him.

  152. crabber's son
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    I liked how the cersei scene with jaime kind of made the controversial scene seem more like it wasnt rape in retrospect. I was like wait did they add this last second to fix that sept scene?

  153. JamesL
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Except most of the complaints are about David and Dan changing things from the books like no LS or Tysha.

  154. The Bastard
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Jesus Christ these Show Purists are so God Damn annoying. Book readers have legitimate disappointments and are stating their opinion.

    Show purists? That is a new one.

    The show is amazing and book readers do nothing but complain about it.

    Can’t wait until the show passes the books…

  155. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Also I feel it’s my duty to call out people who are anti-book purists. Reading the comments after every episode continues to prove that some of you are just as stuck up, and in fact take pleasure when someone is disappointed about certain changes. It’s not mature or cool to label people as “whiners” just because they aren’t 100% happy with everything the way you are. Yes, some readers definitely take it too far and call something TERRIBLE, WORST EVER which is obviously stupid. But quite a few of us have legitimate concerns, and our opinion is not any less valid just because you’re cool with whatever the show adaptation does.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and both sides need to be better about actually discussing these opinions and engaging in healthy debate, instead of insulting the other group for not thinking the same.

  156. Dorian
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Jesus Christ these Show Purists are so God Damn annoying. Book readers have legitimate disappointments and are stating their opinion.

    And non-book purists (what the hell is a show purist?) are entitled to disagree with that opinion.

    Tysha would not have been a great scene. It would’ve killed the scene dead and have everyone but the most avid fans grasping for what the hell was being discussed, and why. It was bad in the books and it would’ve been bad in the show.

  157. David The Grey
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Favorite Scene – Jon Snow & Melisandre looking at each other through the flames. Very foreboding there (along with Melisandre’s theme playing). Nicely done!

    Second Favorite Scene – Brienne thinking she was going be Arya’s hero. You’re not dealing with a normal child here, Brienne!

    I was hoping to see the LS reveal, but I guess that will be used as a hook for S5. Additionally, I would have liked the Tysha story between Jaime and Tyrion. I think leaving that out really reduced the motive for Tyrion’s actions. Oh well. They may bring that into the story at a later point as well, for some other purpose.

    Overall, while it is satisfactory, I would not say this episode ranks amongst my favorites. For S4, I think I’m going to have to go with Episode #8 as my fave.

  158. HouseMartellBitches
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Shit, does stuff still have to be tagged in the book reader topic?

  159. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    So you told me that D&D would not cut Tysha :p

  160. gewa76
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Read Hibberd’s column in EW. He just spoiled it, and said it was a mistake by George. You know who Hibberd speaks for.

  161. davyJones
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    It was a pretty good episode but to the people upset with anyone giving criticism, its ok to criticize what you enjoy.

    Saying “go read the book again” is beyond stupid. This is an adaptation. Yes extra storylines are neat but it shouldn’t take precedent over the actual story. When it starts to cut on original story to fit in extra content we start to get into fanfiction territory.

    If LS is cut then we will have crossed over into the fanfiction territory or at least closer to it.

    Still a great episode that is hurt by having no grand reveal and rushed scenes for tyrion.

  162. Chris
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    I wish the show would just make something different than the books at this point instead of making big changes to show off but then still follow other parts of the book. If its completely different everyone can judge it on its own.

  163. soangry
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Why do D&D feel the need to pander so much to the viewers.

    Tyrions the favourite character? Best not have him be too dark. Everyone loves the bromance? Won’t break that up then.

    Arya’s a popular character, and we don’t really care for catelyn? Arya gets the finale!

    I used to be an apologist but they have consistently shown themselves to dissapoint. If they can’t adapt this source material well, i have no hope for season 5.

  164. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    I dont think that people are quite grasping that nobody commenting on this post is upset because David and Dan changed material from the books. If this was the case, people would be crying about Brienne and the Hound or something. Please dont make people being upset that they didnt like parts of the episode or that they thought the ending was a shitty, wasted opportunity about “book purists” when that isnt the case here at all.

    ^5. Exactly.

  165. Ramsayreek
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    hedonism,

    Wow. Chill dude. It was an amazing episode all around and D&D did a wonderful job.

  166. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Dorian,

    Show Purist are people that believe the show can do no wrong. They defend the show not out of their own thoughts about the episode but just to defend the show at all costs

  167. Ramsayreek
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    NOLADY,

    Nomination and LC storyarc for jon will be next year

  168. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Yeah. So no LS – but D&D have been known to leave things in reserve before. If it’s relevant at Season 5 end, it may be best to include in Season 5 early (it makes for a killer cold open or end of Ep 1, or something).

    So instead of focusing on what’s not there, let’s look at what was:

    –With everybody on the whole bit about Melisandre looking at Jon from across the flames

    –I guess it’s unclear whether Alliser survives, but seems he does – never showed him among the bodies.

    –Really, really nice scene between Tormund and Jon there, convincing him to bury Ygritte in the north. And I liked the parlay with Mance, especially how they gave (what was Jon/Tormund’s dialogue) to Mance. Mag the Mighty!

    –So, Jojen!! :( But I guess that means he wasn’t long for the GRRM world either, this more or less just confirms it.

    –The Brienne/Hound fight, and Arya/Hound talk, were really nicely done. Where it sends Brienne next year is unclear, of course.

    –Holy Skeletons coming out of the damn ground! FUCK!!

    –Unless the Season 3 closer, I really liked the last few minutes of this one. It is a somewhat more hopeful note, and ending in Arya leaving for Braavos points to a new direction for her that I found really poignant.

    –Those of you saying Varys getting on the boat changes things? It doesn’t, not all that much. He disappears for the entirety of ADwD anyway, so having him cross the sea makes sense.

  169. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    What’s the point of putting a character in for one scene, and not showing her again for another season or so. I rather see her have a storyline that moves the story along than see her as a shocking cliffhanger.

  170. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    What the hell is jojenpaste and cleganebowl

  171. Andy Smith
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    Eddard Stark II,

    The issue is not that they have changed the story from the books. The issue is that they missed out on the best possible ending to a season of any show ever and instead put arya on a boat

    Yeah it would have been a truly epic end for the season , having a character who has had no build up in any way whatsoever suddenly appear as if from nowhere , that would have left nobody at all confused would it?

  172. :(
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    If anything by not ending with wat everyone expected and if they are still planning on doin it next year they screwed themselves because it’ll def get ruined now on twitter people are googling wat everyone is complaining about not being there and finding out

  173. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    I dont think that people are quite grasping that nobody commenting on this post is upset because David and Dan changed material from the books. If this was the case, people would be crying about Brienne and the Hound or something. Please dont make people being upset that they didnt like parts of the episode or that they thought the ending was a shitty, wasted opportunity about “book purists” when that isnt the case here at all.

    EXACTLY

  174. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II,

    Whats the point of introducing her two years and 20 episodes after Catelyn Stark dies?

  175. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    The same could be said about some book readers.

  176. drivlikejehu
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    D&D clearly made the correct move to edit out the Jaime/Tyrion argument. It’s a mistake that Martin made because he wanted to build up the scene at all costs, even at the expense of the characters. The show had the opportunity to correct it.

    Tysha is sort of collateral damage – there was no realistic way to incorporate her into Tyrion’s immediate motivation. He already had plenty before the Shae discovery, and that took it to the necessary level of intensity.

  177. Queenofthorns
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Btw… Husband totally ruined the scene with Dany tying up the dragons by pointing out the collars would have been Wayyy to heavy to lift. I started giggling when I should have been crying. ;_;

  178. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    gewa76,

    I’ll wait for D&D to come out and say she has been cut. I don’t think they will leave it open. Still, I hope that article was marked with spoilers and not out there for everyone to see.

  179. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Cleganebowl is Sandor “gravedigger” Hound vs Ser Robert Strong (Gregorstein). Jojenpaste is self explanatory

  180. wycoff
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Fantastic episode. I hope that this means LS will not be in the show. I thought that LS’s appearance cheapened the Red Wedding and was a “jump the shark” moment for the books.

    Since D&D are going to be finishing this story, maybe they’ll have a role for Beric Dondarrion, a more interesting character than zombie Cat.

  181. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    davyJones,

    Exactly, it gets old seeing show apologists attack anyone who has a single criticism, especially when it’s over BIG things like LS. It’s not like we’re complaining about someone’s hair color or a minor character being cut. We’re talking about an extremely important scene and character that really *should* have been the finale, if it’s included at all. It wasn’t until this week that I discovered how many people apparently didn’t give a shit about Stoneheart when they read the book… I’m pretty sure far more people enjoyed that epilogue.

    Anyways, I find it interesting how people are more eager to defend the show’s decisions over Martin’s storytelling, the very reason the show exists. I don’t need everything to be 90% accurate or identical – I just want the major things to be kept intact, which is actually what D&D had claimed was their plan. With these past two seasons, I no longer trust that claim. It’s especially weird seeing book readers jump so quickly to dismiss characters and plotlines from the books, like “Oh that part sucks anyway. I’m sure it’s not even important, who cares.” That’s a hell of an attitude to have about a series you supposedly love. It’s also pretty hypocritical, since your right to judge the source material is as legitimate as my right to judge the adaptation.

    The whole “it’s an adaptation, things will be different” excuse is not a blank check to do ANYTHING you want and have your product be considered holy grail material. You have to be responsible with it. I still love this show very much, but it pains me knowing it could be even better. I mean honestly, of all the awesome aspects of Game of Thrones, how many are lifted right from the books and how many are filler/invented by the showrunners? Shouldn’t that tell you right there that the source material is the reason it’s so successful? Aye, my head hurts. Sorry for the rant, just sticking up for my fellow readers who are getting insulted a lot on these comments.

  182. James
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    King Stannis,

    LS IS BARELY IN THE BOOKS. I don’t want book LS, I want SHOW LS. It’s not a complaint really, more like a need. Great season. JUST GIMME SOME LS. I especially want to see all the youtube reaction videos that are sure to be made.

  183. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    Andy Smith,

    What? No build up? There was Cat build up all season long and literally in this episode. Brienne talking to Arya about her had me thinking they would end with her. Im not sure if youre expecting them to introduce her but not show her face for a few episodes or have somebody say “gee wouldnt it be something if somebody brought back Catelyn Stark from the dead” but any more buildup than was done this season would have ruined the surprise before it happened. And something like the first scenario I just suggested would be way too obvious and cheesy for GoT

  184. C-Cass
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    So no Tysha reveal to enrage Tyrion… I guess he really didn’t need anymore motivation than he already had. This explains why the relationship with show Shea was far more serious than in the books. “She’s only a whore” was the final statement. I think this is a good change. No constant, depressing “where do whores go?” rhetoric’s for next season. Thankfully. Tysha wasn’t essential.

    Bran meeting the raven was fantastic. Poor Jogen. I guess his mission was done. And there’s a trend to keep cast numbers minimal as the season closes. The children and their magic – amazing! A thousand eyes and one!!! Can’t wait to see the Bran-Raven story develop next season. Guess warging into Hodor’s a regular occurance now…

  185. Gum
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Was this whole episode just a big middle finger to book readers? After the Red Wedding I had to read the books to avoid feeling sick like that again (which worked for Episode Eight), but after this episode I now wish I could Men In Black memory wipe myself of book knowledge to not feel left wanting with that ending.

    I really don’t see the rationale of setting up Brienne and Arya’s stories all season just for a Brienne vs Hound brawl and leave out Stoneheart.

  186. Ozymandias
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Now I understand why Maisie Williams said in all of her interviews that she was afraid of people’s reactions to her storyline.

    The episode was phenomenal but disappointing. (not just for LS)
    How is that even possible ? Probably because of the source materiel. My expectations weren’t met.

    Still an AMAZING episode of TV.

  187. gianoshoes
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    I have a feeling that Lady Stoneheart will appear in episode 1 of Season 5. THinking back, I don’t think they needed it for a finale episode. From episode 1 of next season will be a jumping off point for many story lines. That’s why I’m not upset ’cause I honestly think still possible. Also, I don’ t think Bri & Pod storyline has much to do next season BUT meet Lady SToneheart and Brotherhood

  188. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Madgreyjoy: Now we aren’t going to get any of Tryion looking for Tysha. Wherever whores go.

    You don’t seriously think Tyrion in ADwD is truly *looking* for Tysha, do you?

  189. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Andy Smith,

    There was buildup for Tysha in season 1, 3, and 4.

  190. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Am I the only one glad to not have the Tysha stuff in?I’m typically a defender of ADWD but all the “wherever whores go” crap really started to annoy me.All the dwelling Tyrion does on Tysha makes him really unlikeable for a good swath of the book.I’m glad we won’t have to hear him bitching about it all next season.

    A TV show audience is not going to care about a backstory character they haven’t heard much about.They are going to care more about Shae because she was actually in the show.Having her as the motive for the patricide makes perfect sense in the show universe.

    In the book Tyrion’s motivation to kill Tywin – a hasty decision that turns out ok – is Jaime’s revelation. In the show he calmly decides to kill him with his bare hands before sailing away. He then discovers Shae.

  191. ReadJunk
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Thought a lot of the episode was great but definitely missed opportunity! felt rushed, especially the jaime and tyrion scenes. and the fact that jaime tells everybody where tyrion is going baffles me! that was one of the surprises in the book! If LS isn’t in the very first episode of Season 5 then consider her cut, doesn’t make sense to use that character after that.

  192. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: We could have had the Tysha scene without having the “whereever whores go” in the future. One amazing scene does not force us to swallow the bad fallout. Thats the beauty of the adaptation. Unfortunatly we missed out on the great scene today…

    I understand why people are upset because it was a huge revelation in the book. But I stand by my opinion. I’m trying to see from the perspective of a show runner.

    Most fans haven’t read the books or read them awhile ago. Fans who aren’t really invested in the books too aren’t going to remember or care about Tysha. It still might come up again later. But in the show universe squeezing it in would’ve caused an awkward exposition overload that would undercut the tension.

    I suspect they planned for it to be this way from the beginning. That’s why they made the relationship between Tyrion and Shae more substantive in the show. So it would work as a motive for Tyrion that wouldn’t have to be clunkily explained.

    If you were unsullied, you probably wouldn’t notice anything amiss. It would make perfect sense. TV audiences aren’t going to care about a character we’ve never seen.

  193. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber,

    Lol some ppl think just because we get Tysha means we have to get Tyrions “wherever whores go”. The latter does not have to be included just because the former was in!

  194. liam
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    WOW,four years now and there are still people who do not realize they are watching a tv series, not a book.

  195. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    Eddard Stark II,

    Whats the point of introducing her two years and 20 episodes after Catelyn Stark dies?

    They waited 36 episodes to tell you who killed Jon Arryn.

  196. Strepsi
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    The privy scene was fantastic! Charles Dance and Peter Dinklage nailed every nuance.

    I liked an upbeat epic finale, and it did a great job of feeling like closure for most of the characters, especially because unsullied viewers were starting to get antsy about Arya and Bran not getting anywhere…

    I love this site and the recaps, but oh my god you Stoneheart freaks are plucking my last nerve every thread.

    Given that almost nothing happens in the next book, personlly I’m glad they’re saving an OMG moment.

  197. s
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Liked:
    -Arya and Brienne meeting
    -Brienne and Hound fight (AWESOME showcase for both actors)
    -I was conflicted about Arya letting The Hound die slowly, but remembered the scene where he killed the man who had given them food and shelter.
    -Arya heading for Braavos
    -Tyrion’s revenge on Tywin
    -Varys and Tywin leaving King’s Landing
    -Dany locking up her dragons was emotional
    -Bran finally making it to the 3-eyed raven (book 5 territory!!)
    -Stannis arrival up north, though…

    Didn’t Like:
    -Stannis’ arrival should’ve happened at the end of ep. 9. Lost it’s power since Mance was already negotiating with Jon
    -No Lady Stoneheart. I understand she could be introduced in S. 5, but it loses the power and I’m sure it will be spoiled between now and then for non-readers
    -Weird ending for Dany’s storyline
    -No ending/closure for Sansa, Rickon, Theon
    -No Balon Greyjoy death??
    -

  198. Ryan E
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    JTargs: Ryan

    Most seem to be complaining about no LS, which is the definition of complaining about a book change.

  199. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Greatjon of Slumber: They waited 36 episodes to tell you who killed Jon Arryn.

    That was the knockout punch. These show purists are grasping at straws

  200. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Ryan E,

    Most are complaining about Tysha. Not LS

  201. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    This is how it would have gone:
    LSH reveal – HOLY CRAP WTF!
    Season 5 – Can’t wait to see LSH.
    Mid-Season 5 – Where the hell is LSH?!
    Season 5 finale – Hey look, it’s LSH. I guess she’s finally doing something.
    The excitement dwindles.

  202. James
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Seriously you guys, who cares about Tysha? Sure, it kinda gives Tyrion a little purpose how she’s always on his mind and he wonders where she is. And it gave some good tension between him and Jaime and Tyrion. Clearly, she’s absolutely nothing in the scheme of things. Tyrion is awesome and having him thinking she really did love him and him looking for her in not at all necessary, especially if he never even finds her in the future of the books.

  203. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    liam:
    WOW,four years now and there are still people who do not realize they are watching a tv series, not a book.

    We do realize the difference. Thats why we praise the Hound vs Brienne but are dissapointed about Tyrion

  204. Maester Blaster
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Even if I had my issues (fireballs?) I still enjoyed it, and I have a little analogy that hopefully will get people to back off the cliff a little. GRRM refers to writing the story as a journey, he knows where everyone is going but he is still working out the details of their individual paths to the climax.

    Those details can be very important and individually meaningful to people, I know. Lets say you go on vacation in Paris every year and on your first day there you always go to this great little place, let’s call it Cafe Stoneheart. This experience is very important to you. It’s an integral part of the experience for you.

    Now lets say a friend of yours is going to Paris and you recommend Cafe Stoneheart and you find out later they didn’t find time to go there. At this point you start screaming at them about how they did it wrong and they might as well never have gone to Paris at all. Don’t you think maybe you should let them have their own experience without crapping on it? Don’t you understand you can always go back to Cafe Stoneheart in your own way?

    Honestly guys, all of the changes I disagree with are not ruining it nearly as much as the people casting shade at every opportunity. I understand you are upset, that’s cool, just try to find a better way to express it.

  205. Clob
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    I may finally be at a point where I can say that I wish this show existed without everybody having read a general summary script (the books) for the entire thing. Silly, I know. No, the show may have not gotten so huge quickly out of the gate without a built-in fanbase, but most of the complaints are bitching about things not included from the books. It’s a fucking brilliant show that’s being downgraded by some because they can’t separate it from written material.

    I can’t believe my eyes when I read comments from people saying it was a terrible episode. Seriously!? I can say that I entirely hate those comments and don’t think much more of those that write them. This episode, the action, the writing and the acting were top quality entertainment. I watch a lot of movies and television and there isn’t any fanboy shit involved in my view when I say that they did some damn fine work. I don’t even care to have a discussion with those that say otherwise.

  206. :/
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    She was left out because of another characters revival in the future.. Can’t play the same card twice

  207. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    liam,

    So long as they stick to the main beats of the books, I am fine. It should be obvious the show will not hold true to the little details/dialogue that closely moving forward. The show will never be perfect, but it still entertains me and is well made. The books are the books, and they will always be better, I just hope to read the end of GRRM’s story at some point in my life, so I can get the little details the show will leave out.

  208. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    James,

    We care about Tysha not because of her at all. We care about her because of the epic scene it gives us with Tyrion and Jaime

  209. hedonism
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    OMFG, EW just spoiled the whole LS story and who she is right in their headlines, the writer is a LS hater. See, many of us were worried the lack of a LS finale would ruin the character’s wtf reveal and we were proved right, so HBO get Bryan Cogman to write the finale for next season. We won’t be seeing LS now, because D&D and EW ruined her, I so wanted to see her in the series. If Arianne is removed, D&D better stay across the pond.

  210. C-Cass
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    The show often changes timing on when certain stuff happens compared to the books. Brienne biting a man’s ear off for example! I’m not too bothered about the Lady Stone Heart omission. It can happen later. Plenty of great stuff happened. Tywin’s dead! Tyrion escapes!

    Always thought Arya & Brienne would be great in a scene together! Glad they met briefly and talked Dads, swords, and learning to fight! Arya gets to watch her handle a formidable challenger. The hound looks messed up…

  211. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    #WhereverBookChaptersGo

    LS can always show up later, disappointing, yes, but it’s not as if that can’t be added at a later time (if ever). Tyrion’s ending, even without Tysha, could have been much more the focal point than throwing in the Brienne/Hound scene (which I did like). Even some more dialogue with Shae and Jaime would have helped, instead of just seeming to tack Tyrion on towards the end.

    They already changed the entire Lysa/Littlefinger/Sansa storyline (which in the book happened after Tyrion kills Tywin), and I like the idea of seeing it go differently in the show vs. the book. It’s not about the purism, it’s just the writing. Jaime also now has no reason to be brooding over thoughts of Cersei being unfaithful, well, as unfaithful as a previously married twin sister in an incestuous relationship can be anyway…lol. I don’t mind when they change things a little. But we get so little each season as it is, they are remarkably short seasons, I kind of do want more bang for my bucks at the end considering how long it is until the next season even starts.

  212. KG
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Looks like a lot of readers need to join Larry Williams on the GTFO Express.

  213. dubq
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    French Guy,

    Oh shut up.

  214. Drewr15
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Here is the reason why leaving Tysha out was a bit of a miss. Shae in the end turns out to be just a whore and while it hurts Tyrion it falls flat as a reason to kill his dad and be mad about him calling her a whore. Tysha on the other hand turns out is the one person in the world who really loved him for who he was and his dad took that away from him and made him think she was a whore. That is the reason he killed his dad. It takes big part of the emotional impact out of it. Not to mention feeling betrayed by Jamie who is the one person his whole life he thought he could count on. Otherwise loved the episode and the switch up of Brienne and the hound fight was a shock but worked well I thought.

  215. ColdPie
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Tysha was always figurative to me in ASOS. Tywin has no idea where she is and Tyrions storyline has nothing to do with finding her at this point

  216. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Okay but the thing is nobody is complaining BECAUSE something was changed. Theyre complaining because they feel that David and Dan made a sub-par episode and left out parts that would have made for a far better episode than what they produced.

    Personally, I dont care either way about Tysha. I dont care that they killed Jojen or Pyp or Grenn or that Strong Belwas or Coldhands arent in the show or that Bran was captured by the mutineers or that Brienne and the Hound fought each other. I care that they ended season four with a really crappy, easily forgettable disappointment instead of a jaw-dropping, epic and insane moment that would have had people talking for months and that would have made for a better episode and also better storytelling. I am not upset because something from the books was cut.

    Any complaint anyone might ever have with the show is going to stem from book material because thats where the story is coming from. Saying that these peoples complaints are invalid and that “book purists need to shut up because the show is good” is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the fact that people didnt like parts of the episode and thought a different course of action would have been better. Of course peoples complaints come from parts of the book that were removed or changed because what else could there be to complain about? The complaint is not about the removal itself, its about the removal being a bad one. The show is great and I dont care if they change stuff, but that doesnt mean the writers can do no wrong and that every decision they make is a great one. Some things from the books should be cut and others shouldnt. If they decided to just cut the rest of Jon Snows storyline from the series, you guys would be like “ugh these book purists the show is so good jon was too emo anyway”

  217. Clob
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II:
    JTargs,

    This is how it would have gone:
    LSH reveal – HOLY CRAP WTF!
    Season 5 – Can’t wait to see LSH.
    Mid-Season 5 – Where the hell is LSH?!
    Season 5 finale – Hey look, it’s LSH. I guess she’s finally doing something.
    The excitement dwindles.

    Pretty much spot on. Don’t forget the bitching that would happen if that character was given multiple scenes to make it worth it rather than just the two that have been written.

  218. Leo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Justin DiMatteo:
    davyJones,

    Exactly, it gets old seeing show apologists attack anyone who has a single criticism, especially when it’s over BIG things like LS. It’s not like we’re complaining about someone’s hair color or a minor character being cut. We’re talking about an extremely important scene and character that really *should* have been the finale, if it’s included at all. It wasn’t until this week that I discovered how many people apparently didn’t give a shit about Stoneheart when they read the book… I’m pretty sure far more people enjoyed that epilogue.

    Anyways, I find it interesting how people are more eager to defend the show’s decisions over Martin’s storytelling, the very reason the show exists. I don’t need everything to be 90% accurate or identical – I just want the major things to be kept intact, which is actually what D&D had claimed was their plan. With these past two seasons, I no longer trust that claim. It’s especially weird seeing book readers jump so quickly to dismiss characters and plotlines from the books, like “Oh that part sucks anyway. I’m sure it’s not even important, who cares.” That’s a hell of an attitude to have about a series you supposedly love. It’s also pretty hypocritical, since your right to judge the source material is as legitimate as my right to judge the adaptation.

    The whole “it’s an adaptation, things will be different” excuse is not a blank check to do ANYTHING you want and have your product be considered holy grail material. You have to be responsible with it. I still love this show very much, but it pains me knowing it could be even better. I mean honestly, of all the awesome aspects of Game of Thrones, how many are lifted right from the books and how many are filler/invented by the showrunners? Shouldn’t that tell you right there that the source material is the reason it’s so successful? Aye, my head hurts. Sorry for the rant, just sticking up for my fellow readers who are getting insulted a lot on these comments.

    Quoted, because this cannot be said enough.

  219. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Maester Blaster,

    The fireballs were lame. Only time i remember facepalming like that was when Xaro cut his hand on the show because of the pact of “kamui”?. Unnecessarily making the scene cheesy and jumping into syfy network territory

  220. Ramsayreek
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    TheSphinx,

    Action and battles are not needed to make the show good……..

  221. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    I no longer trust the series. The actress playing Catelyn was dynamite, and the reveal was also explosive.

    They are settling for fizzle.

    No Lady Stoneheart seals it for me (and hey, my name) They missed their opportunity. And they missed mine.

    Will no longer watch.

  222. Gum
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    hedonism,

    That’s another reason to not sit on LS, because now half the world knows about a character that has not shown up.

  223. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    JamesL,

    Okay but the thing is nobody is complaining BECAUSE something was changed. Theyre complaining because they feel that David and Dan made a sub-par episode and left out parts that would have made for a far better episode than what they produced.

    Personally, I dont care either way about Tysha. I dont care that they killed Jojen or Pyp or Grenn or that Strong Belwas or Coldhands arent in the show or that Bran was captured by the mutineers or that Brienne and the Hound fought each other. I care that they ended season four with a really crappy, easily forgettable disappointment instead of a jaw-dropping, epic and insane moment that would have had people talking for months and that would have made for a better episode and also better storytelling. I am not upset because something from the books was cut.

    Any complaint anyone might ever have with the show is going to stem from book material because thats where the story is coming from. Saying that these peoples complaints are invalid and that “book purists need to shut up because the show is good” is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the fact that people didnt like parts of the episode and thought a different course of action would have been better. Of course peoples complaints come from parts of the book that were removed or changed because what else could there be to complain about? The complaint is not about the removal itself, its about the removal being a bad one. The show is great and I dont care if they change stuff, but that doesnt mean the writers can do no wrong and that every decision they make is a great one. Some things from the books should be cut and others shouldnt. If they decided to just cut the rest of Jon Snows storyline from the series, you guys would be like “ugh these book purists the show is so good jon was too emo anyway”

    THIS

  224. Ser Endrew Tarth
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    The omission of Tysha is unforgivable. Show purists have no excuse for it that holds water. I asked my unsullied sister after the episode if she knows who Tysha is and she did. In a confession Jaime can lead with a bit of exposition if average people are really that dumb.

  225. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Drewr15,

    Drewr15:
    Here is the reason why leaving Tysha out was a bit of a miss. Shae in the end turns out to be just a whore and while it hurts Tyrion it falls flat as a reason to kill his dad and be mad about him calling her a whore. Tysha on the other hand turns out is the one person in the world who really loved him for who he was and his dad took that away from him and made him think she was a whore. That is the reason he killed his dad. It takes big part of the emotional impact out of it. Not to mention feeling betrayed by Jamie who is the one person his whole life he thought he could count on. Otherwise loved the episode and the switch up of Brienne and the hound fight was a shock but worked well I thought.

    Yeah definitely. And while I think this is certainly valid, I think that the mistake was more not setting up Tysha than not putting her in the finale. There was no setup for her and viewers would have been confused so I dont blame them for leaving her out but I think that had they set her up properly (which they did in the first few seasons) it would have been a huge positive to keep her in.

  226. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stoneheart:
    I no longer trust the series.

    No Lady Stoneheart sealed it.They missed their opportunity.And they missed mine.

    Will no longer watch.

    Then please, no longer post.

  227. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    What’s so epic about that scene?

  228. Michel
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Are the fireballs in the books too? I can’t remember, the CGI was ok, but for me fireballs was too much magic for GOT territory (even having dragons, smoke baby and white walkers)

  229. johnnytata
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Haven’t seen it yet, but man… I wish Alex Graves and D&D would stop overhyping the episodes.

    They did it last week, which is probably why some people felt a bit underwhelmed. And now they did it again, going on and on about how amazing this finale would be. I’m sure it’s good, but that kind of hype + no LS (or Tysha??) is just setting people up for disappointment.

    well, they are setting a small percentage of their viewers up for disappointment since the people who are pissed are merely a loud minority.

    sorry to pick you out to quote, but i just started getting annoyed by the same old broken record, the two things that people are complaining about are 1) a minor detail (tysha) i’m sorry it just is. a backstory character who was mentioned once in 4years is a MINOR DETAI. and 2) a scene that hasn’t hAppened yet that can still happen at any time, just didnt happen exactly when people whp hyped themselves up over it wanted it to is just a three year old temper tantrum. it’s like you didnt get the toy you wanted. boo fucking hoo.

    i honestly can’t wait till the shows pass the books so 1) i don’t feel tempted to come to this annoying thread just to sift through a bitchfest and 2) i dont ruin a perfectly good scene for myself by thinking “well people are gonna br pissed about this.”

    seriously you jokers are sooooo predictable.

  230. Jakylla
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Great start with Stannis, Jon and Mance but to short. The scene with Daenerys coul be more intense if they had shown Drogon escaping.
    The fight between the Hound and Brienne was not so bad.
    I enjoyed seeing Arya leaving Westeros to Braavos.
    The scene with Braw was dreadfull and the reference to Dunk and Egg was awsome !

    The scene with Tywin was fantastic. But I’m a bit disapointed with Tyrion ! Where is the talk between him and Jaime about Joffrey and Cersei ? Where is the talk with Varys when Tyrion told him that he killed Shae and his father ? And finally no Lady Stoneheart. She could be the great cliffhanger of this season to surprise the viewers.

    I think they missed the opportunity to ended this season with a powerfull scene.

    RIP Tywin Lannister. Charles Dances give us a outstanding performance throughout the four seasons. A great actor with a huge charisma. I will miss him.

  231. C-Cass
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Maester Blaster,

    Haha – cafe StoneHeart! Brilliant :-D

  232. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Ramsayreek:
    TheSphinx,

    Action and battles are not needed to make the show good……..

    I agree but I think that most average viewers who watch the series every Sunday but have no further commitment to the show would disagree, and since people like us are already committed, those are the kind of people that they want to reign in.

  233. hinesy24
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Before I read the rest of the comments, let me just say that I thought it was epic and while it didn’t necessarily include everything I was hoping for, what it did include was fantastic.

  234. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Justin DiMatteo:
    davyJones,

    Exactly, it gets old seeing show apologists attack anyone who has a single criticism, especially when it’s over BIG things like LS. It’s not like we’re complaining about someone’s hair color or a minor character being cut. We’re talking about an extremely important scene and character that really *should* have been the finale, if it’s included at all. It wasn’t until this week that I discovered how many people apparently didn’t give a shit about Stoneheart when they read the book… I’m pretty sure far more people enjoyed that epilogue.

    Anyways, I find it interesting how people are more eager to defend the show’s decisions over Martin’s storytelling, the very reason the show exists. I don’t need everything to be 90% accurate or identical – I just want the major things to be kept intact, which is actually what D&D had claimed was their plan. With these past two seasons, I no longer trust that claim. It’s especially weird seeing book readers jump so quickly to dismiss characters and plotlines from the books, like “Oh that part sucks anyway. I’m sure it’s not even important, who cares.” That’s a hell of an attitude to have about a series you supposedly love. It’s also pretty hypocritical, since your right to judge the source material is as legitimate as my right to judge the adaptation.

    The whole “it’s an adaptation, things will be different” excuse is not a blank check to do ANYTHING you want and have your product be considered holy grail material. You have to be responsible with it. I still love this show very much, but it pains me knowing it could be even better. I mean honestly, of all the awesome aspects of Game of Thrones, how many are lifted right from the books and how many are filler/invented by the showrunners? Shouldn’t that tell you right there that the source material is the reason it’s so successful? Aye, my head hurts. Sorry for the rant, just sticking up for my fellow readers who are getting insulted a lot on these comments.

    Agree with Everything here

  235. Drewr15
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Agree they should have set it up better. honestly I was expecting them to recap the scene from season 1 where he tells Shae and Bronn about her. That would have been enough of a setup I think. Oh well.

  236. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Anyone want to talk about the Wall scenes?

    It’s gotten lost in the shuffle. For once I feel the pain of the Stanstans!

    I really loved the confrontation between Mance and Stannis. I think they did a great job showing Jon and Stannis sizing each other up too. I look forward to their scenes next season and am glad they saved the LC election and the Winterfell offer. I like Jon’s ADWD chapters but a lot of it is internal and would be tough to translate to TV. This way we get lots of good story at the Wall next season. I think this means they’ll shorten Sam’s journey to Oldtown.

    I also couldn’t help but notice all the fire imagery we got with Jon. We had the Ygritte pyre. More importantly, we had Melisandre eyefucking Jon through the flames at the NW pyre. I took that as foreshadowing of Jon’s future.

  237. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    johnnytata,

    My unsullied friend thought the episode was underwhelming

  238. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS

  239. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    :/: point

    On the contrary, I feel like the card kind of has to be played twice. If they just revive Jon out of nowhere, its like “Oh, come on… the main character dies so we just magically bring him back to life?” But if weve seen it before, we know it is possible and it is law in this world and that its not just a card randomly pulled out of a hat to keep him alive.

  240. Gum
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    hinesy24,

    Agreed, but I just hope the Emmy selection panel hasn’t read the books. Would love to know the true Unsullied reaction to this episode, but that thread here is just a sh*tstorm of spoilers right now…

  241. Leo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    We can have dragons, cheesy fireballs, an old guy in a tree surrounded by little girls and skeletons, Frankenstein and his monster… but no lost soul in need of finding peace.

    and no, this isn’t my only complaint.. I was underwhelmed all around. Since I have no particular reason to be excited for next season, it will make waiting 10 months easier.

  242. Delta1212
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Krh,

    Is it Opposite Day?

  243. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Okay cool so I guess that quote didnt work at all but the person had said that they didnt include LS because Jon will be revived later in the series and they cant play the same card twice.

  244. Lefty
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Don’t blame D&d. Blame GRRM for writing so slow that D&D need to save all the material they can to have some surprises in seasons 5 and 6, and buy time for WoW material.

    I had the same reactions as most. I suspect much of the material that was left out will surface next season.

    It’s been four years and I still can’t figure out how to use the spoiler tags.

  245. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    They rushed the Tyrion-Jaime farewell, and left out Tyrion’s main reason for going nuts and killing Tywin. This was the biggest fault of the episode, and it is valid.

    I could have done without the fireballs, but they are The Children Of The Forest, and they have magic, so oh well. Bloodraven rocked it. A thousand eyes, and one, bitches!

  246. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Did you forget about Beric?

  247. Balerion
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Disappointed that they settled for a generic Arya ending instead of LS.
    So I assume the “Expensive CGI-heavy scene” is the Bran’s skeletons battle?
    Can’t say I don’t like it, just different from what I imagined from the book.
    But Bran’s great and so is Tyrion. Their storylines are what I look forward the most next season.

  248. Maester Blaster
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    As to the whole “show purist” thing, sure, people don’t like anyone attacking something they like, they get defensive. It’s like politics or sports teams.

    I don’t like every decision D&D have made. They pull their punches for the TV audience. They ask a lot from the casual viewer but they could go farther in terms of emotional stakes and defying convention and including back story that is hard to remember if you only watch each episode once.

    That being said it is my favorite show. It’s better than anything I have ever seen on TV. If you don’t like because it’s not as good as it possibly can be remember the alternative. Xena and Hercules, that’s what I grew up with.

  249. Topdecker
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II: Reply

    Eddard Stark II

    Posted June 15, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    So Varys and Tyrion are boat buddies now? Did i misinterpret? If i’m right and they are going to be boat buddies, we might have another great roadtrip pairing.

    Eddard Stark IIQuote

    I can see him replacing Illyrio Mopatis for next season so he doesn’t just disappear for 1-2 seasons.

  250. Anthony Dellova
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Wow. Kind of bummed at some of the omissions. I feel like Tyrion’s brain didn’t break as much as it did in the books. Him killing Shae seemed kind of pointless since it was so obvious she hated him and wanted him dead at this point. In the books I felt like Tyrion was holding out hope that Shae was being coerced to testify against him somehow and that he still had feelings for her. No mention of Tysha either kind of sucks. BUT it was kind of nice to see Tyrion and Jaime have a nice moment (unlike their last meeting in the books). And Varys is just going overseas with Tyrion huh? Is he going to take Mormont’s place? Are they all going to meet up? Inquiring minds want to know. Loved the red woman eye balling Jon Snow (the real chosen one in my opinion).

  251. johnnytata
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    eyefucking

    nice. i found myself dying to see mel there. did not disappoint.

    oh and by the way my two unsullied friends who watched it with me tonight loved it.

    so what does that mean for all you people with one unsullied friend who was underwhelmed?

    means you don’t have enough friends…:)

  252. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Anyone want to talk about the Wall scenes?

    It’s gotten lost in the shuffle.For once I feel the pain of the Stanstans!

    I really loved the confrontation between Mance and Stannis.I think they did a great job showing Jon and Stannis sizing each other up too.I look forward to their scenes next season and am glad they saved the LC election and the Winterfell offer.I like Jon’s ADWD chapters but a lot of it is internal and would be tough to translate to TV.This way we get lots of good story at the Wall next season.I think this means they’ll shorten Sam’s journey to Oldtown.

    I also couldn’t help but notice all the fire imagery we got with Jon.We had the Ygritte pyre.More importantly, we had Melisandre eyefucking Jon through the flames at the NW pyre.I took that as foreshadowing of Jon’s future.

    Agreed! My favorite part of this episode was definitely Jon’s stuff (which is funny bc I went into it thinking it would be the best episode of all time and that the stuff at the Wall would be a necessary bore). I loved Stannis’ arrival and I actually felt some admiration and warm feelings towards him for the first time ever. LOVED Mel looking at him through the flames, though it got me totally pumped to be super annoyed by her next season and wanting her three thousand miles away from Jon. I also hated Ygritte but thought her burning was nice. Loved Mance and I think his speech on behalf of the wildlings was so logical that I half expected Jon to be like “Yeah sure bud you guys can come on over.” It was awesome seeing Davos and Stannis on screen with Jon…

  253. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Gum:
    hinesy24,

    Agreed, but I just hope the Emmy selection panel hasn’t read the books. Would love to know the true Unsullied reaction to this episode, but that thread here is just a sh*tstorm of spoilers right now…

    Thats why their is an unsullied thread -_-

  254. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    johnnytata: nice.i found myself dying to see mel there.did not disappoint.

    oh and by the way my two unsullied friends who watched it with me tonight loved it.

    so what does that mean for all you people with one unsullied friend who was underwhelmed?

    means you don’t have enough friends…:)

    LOL my boyfriend said that he enjoyed it and that a lot happened but that he didnt know why I had hyped it up so much. He also mentioned that he didnt know what the ending was supposed to be so he didnt know what he was missing, which is an interesting point to consider.

  255. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Agreed as well. Loved the Stannis scenes and Brienne vs The Hound. His army flanking the wildlings was epic

  256. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    The show will never match the books, and that’s okay. I see why D&D don’t want to go much beyond 7 seasons. It’s nearly impossible to retain it’s quality for that long.

  257. The Unburnt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Drewr15:
    Here is the reason why leaving Tysha out was a bit of a miss. Shae in the end turns out to be just a whore and while it hurts Tyrion it falls flat as a reason to kill his dad and be mad about him calling her a whore. Tysha on the other hand turns out is the one person in the world who really loved him for who he was and his dad took that away from him and made him think she was a whore. That is the reason he killed his dad. It takes big part of the emotional impact out of it. Not to mention feeling betrayed by Jamie who is the one person his whole life he thought he could count on. Otherwise loved the episode and the switch up of Brienne and the hound fight was a shock but worked well I thought.

    Exactly!

    & JTargs as well. Thanks for putting my disappointment into words. I’m a bit sick of this complaining about “book purists”. We will see with reviews tomorrow from plenty of others who haven’t (or have) read the books and the general opinion as to whether it wasn’t just “book purists” who thought it a bit flat at the end.

    Awesome for Arya, and for heaven’s sakes, will someone give Rory McCann a huge round of applause and an award or two for this past season? They were amazing. Gwendolyn Christie as well, as usual. A great many greats in this season, really. Maisie Williams is getting better and better and better, and to be honest, I’m more impressed with the show in many respects than the books on many counts. It’s great television…..until sliding a bit into a VERY hurried ending after stretching the 3rd book for 2 seasons.

    That much extra time should go out with the best and most climactic scene in to date. And as for confusing viewers, I think they can handle a bit of extra dialogue. I mean, there were quite a few people tweeting last week their surprise that Maester Aemon was a Targaryen (whaaa???? That was also already in the show….). I don’t think viewers are so stupid in general that they couldn’t have grasped a few extra points to add to the emotional import of a scene. It would have been just more rewarding all the way around, especially after giving such great scenes to Arya, The Hound, Brienne, Jon Snow, and so on.

    #WhereverBookChaptersGo

  258. Andrew B
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    lmao at stoneheart fanboys, I mean seriously it’s one of the cheesiest dumbest things from the books, hibberd is spot on with his assessment that it basically cheapens her death

  259. Sweldon
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    WHERE THE FUCK IS STONEHEART. I WAITED THIS WHOLE GORAM SEASON FOR STONEHEART. IM SO ANGRY.

  260. Strepsi
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    You guys are completely losing sight of the fact that TYWIN IS DEAD!
    The big bad of the show is dead!
    This is huge for anyone who loves the show (or Charles Dance, who’s been fantastic)
    and both Tyrion and Arya have left the kingdoms….

    I thought it was a great finale, and as The Children — with the Children of the forest, Dany’s children, Arya and Tyrion losing their father figures — it was very well conceived too.

  261. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    johnnytata: well, they are setting a small percentage of their viewers up for disappointment since the people who are pissed are merely a loud minority.

    sorry to pick you out to quote, but i just started getting annoyed by the same old broken record, the two things that people are complaining about are 1) a minor detail (tysha) i’m sorry it just is.a backstory character who was mentioned once in 4years is a MINOR DETAI.and 2) a scene that hasn’t hAppened yet that can still happen at any time, just didnt happen exactly when people whp hyped themselves up over it wanted it to is just a three year old temper tantrum.it’s like you didnt get the toy you wanted.boo fucking hoo.

    i honestly can’t wait till the shows pass the books so 1) i don’t feel tempted to come to this annoying thread just to sift through a bitchfest and 2) i dont ruin a perfectly good scene for myself by thinking “well people are gonna br pissed about this.”

    seriously you jokers are sooooo predictable.

    Posters on this thread seem evenly split to me. Can you explain show Tyrion’s calm decision to go kill his father with no weapon? They made it pretty obvious he wants to live, and he’s smart. In the show version there is nothing to push him over the edge. He and Jaime remain besties, and Jaime doesn’t hear about Cersei and Lancel. That scene was never about Tysha.

  262. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    I hate to bother everyone with another complain but the VFX department has been pretty saddening to me :/ they do such a phenomenal job with some things (dragons, giants, mammoths, S1-3 walkers and wights) but then things like the nights king, lysa falling out the moon door and brans scene this episode are just major flops. One of the things I used to love about GoT was that there was never corny or shotty CGI like youd find in a harry potter movie or something, but I just dont find that to be true anymore. Those skeleton wights….shudder

  263. mariamb
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I will talk about it. Loved the scenes at the Wall. Mance finally displayed the gravitas that was necessary. So looking forward to Jon and Stannis scenes. The scene of the preparation of the funeral pyre at Castle Black was well-done. Davos is at the Wall…is that a change from the books? (Can’t recall) Will he then be sent to search for Rickon?

    Jon, Sansa, Bran and Arya will begin new journeys in Season 5…and push them to their destinies. I love the uptick in the story lines for the Stark kids.

    I will not touch on what was excluded. Have mixed feelings about it. However, Varys making the decision to sail off with Tyrion made me happy. Hoping to see more of him next season.

  264. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Terrible skeleton wights!!!! I wish they had just used actual actors in makeup. Felt very cheap

  265. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Andrew B:
    lmao at stoneheart fanboys, I mean seriously it’s one of the cheesiest dumbest things from the books, hibberd is spot on with his assessment that it basically cheapens her death

    I really dont think this is fair to say when none of us have any clue what her storyline will be. If GRRM brought her back to have that one scene, then sure. But frankly, I doubt he did that and hes not exactly the type to bring back our favorite characters from the dead because our favorite characters cant die.

  266. Dorne Tootin'
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    freoduwebbe:
    STANNIS

    loved it.

    This. Not sure what else to add… :)

  267. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    I think book readers are flying blind from here on. I told a couple of my unsullied friends that tonight. I’m okay with that, so long as it doesn’t go into True Blood territory. If that happens, I’ll grab my pitch fork and lynching rope and join the mob going after D&D.

  268. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Agreed :( I wish they had been like the wights we’ve seen before. I guess they wanted to go for a stronger, faster angle? But I feel that could’ve been achieved with the same wights we’ve already seen. I was pretty confused when those skeletons showed up

  269. Matt
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Fortunately for the whores of King’s Landing, Pod’s rumored death did not happen. I don’t think they could handle that given Oberyn’s death and Tyrion fleeing.

  270. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II:
    JTargs,

    This is how it would have gone:
    LSH reveal – HOLY CRAP WTF!
    Season 5 – Can’t wait to see LSH.
    Mid-Season 5 – Where the hell is LSH?!
    Season 5 finale – Hey look, it’s LSH. I guess she’s finally doing something.
    The excitement dwindles.

    Your logic doesn’t make sense though, because the showrunners have proven they’re willing flesh things out that are vague or minimal in the books. So knowing that, we’ve come this far and yet now all of a sudden they’re going to introduce a character and then follow the book 100% faithfully flaws and all? No, I think what you and a lot of other people don’t understand is that this was a chance to TRUMP the books. All those scenes we’ve gotten that are not canon, and yet totally believable and flesh out source material characters, we could have gotten that with Stoneheart too. And even if they DIDN’T, and they had people wondering where the hell she was all of season 5…they’ve already done that once or twice. I mean, just look at the White Walkers. Once a season they show them doing something neat or spooky (and most recently, we got that epic baby/Night’s King scene) and yet nothing since. They then leave us dry for 5 or 6 episodes. Where the hordes of watchers complaining about that, huh?

    Inconsistency, man.

  271. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I think book readers are flying blind from here on. I told a couple of my unsullied friends that tonight. I’m okay with that, so long as it doesn’t go into True Blood territory. If that happens, I’ll grab my pitch fork and lynching rope and join the mob going after D&D.

    I know nothing about True Blood but I agree – when you consider how far along we are, there’s going to be a lot of TWOW next season. However if what you’re implying is that book readers will be blind because they’ve changed things from the books so much.. I dont imagine theyre going to make more changes next season than they did this season, and I still think theyre extremely true to the series.

  272. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I liked the skeleton wights…..ducks behind Bloodraven’s tree and hides from fireballs.

  273. JTargs
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Justin DiMatteo: Your logic doesn’t make sense though, because the showrunners have proven they’re willing flesh things out that are vague or minimal in the books. So knowing that, we’ve come this far and yet now all of a sudden they’re going to introduce a character and then follow the book 100% faithfully flaws and all? No, I think what you and a lot of other people don’t understand is that this was a chance to TRUMP the books. All those scenes we’ve gotten that are not canon, and yet totally believable and flesh out source material characters, we could have gotten that with Stoneheart too. And even if they DIDN’T, and they had people wondering where the hell she was all of season 5…they’ve already done that once or twice. I mean, just look at the White Walkers. Once a season they show them doing something neat or spooky (and most recently, we got that epic baby/Night’s King scene) and yet nothing since. They then leave us dry for 5 or 6 episodes. Where the hordes of watchers complaining about that, huh?

    Inconsistency, man.

    Yes. Also ive heard a lot of unsullied are wondering where Gendry is..

  274. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:45 pm | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Well, they’re taking Jaime to Dorne next season. More changes are coming. I won’t complain if they are compelling and done right. And please, no more bad CGI

  275. johnnytata
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    JTargs: He also mentioned that he didnt know what the ending was supposed to be so he didnt know what he was missing, which is an interesting point to consider.

    well who decided what the ending was “supposed to be?”. a bunch of internet hypesters.? why do they get to decide? i didnt want that ending. i didn’t want ANY specific ending, i just wanted to watch and enjoy. and i certainly don’t want a bunch of tantrum-prone knee jerkers to tell me how it’s “supposed to end”

    for you book purists who get annoyed by people complaining about you, try to understand that no one likes know-it-all grownups who act like three year olds punked by their parents in the toy section or worse, the angsty teen who ruins the vacation for everyone else with their constant whining.

  276. JamesL
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Fuck Lady Stoneheart!!!! I’m so sick of hearing about this character. I can’t believe how many book readers are so desperate to see this stupid character and are delusional about the type of of reaction she would get from show viewers. It would have been considered a cheap and lame plot twist if she was included in the show. I knew she wasn’t going to show up this season and guess what, she is not going to show up next season either. The cats out of the bag now even nonreaders know who she is because of all the nerd rage.

  277. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I wouldn’t have minded the skeleton wights if the CGI was not piss poor. Also, not a fan of the fireball hurling. Took me out of suspension of disbelief mode in a way that seeing Dany’s dragons never does

  278. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Ryan E,

    Most are complaining about Tysha. Not LS

    The Tysha reveal leading Tyrion to murder his father is, perhaps, the worst piece of writing GRRM has ever put to paper. The showrunners know this, and made the right decision.

    And do you seriously think that show Tyrion wasn’t given enough cause to kill his father? Here are his reasons:

    1. Injustice: His father wrongfully sentenced him to death, and has wished him dead for most of his life

    2. Betrayal: His father bedded the woman he knew Tyrion loved

    3.Disregard for Tyrion’s humanity: Tywin has no regard for the love Tyrion may have felt for Shae (whether or not Shae actually loved him is irrelevant – its the disregard for Tyrion’s feelings that’s the crime). Tywin is incapable of treating Tyrion as a human being.

    4. Philosophical differences: Tyrion has witnessed the brutality of his father’s actions, whether that be forcing Sansa to marry him, or ordering the slaughter of the Starks. Tyrion actually cares about the realm, and its people, and this adds to his motivation for killing his father.

    5. Survival: At least after he approached his father in the loo, Tyrion HAS to kill Tywin. He has escaped from prison after being sentenced to death, and he is pointing a crossbow at his father. There is no turning back at this point. He must kill him or be killed.

    All that, and purists are claiming that the omission of a revelation of an event that happened years ago (regarding a woman he met years ago), ruins Tyrion’s motivation for killing his father??? This is utterly baffling.

    Tyrion’s father DESPISED him, betrayed him and sent him to his death. That is more than enough motivation for Tyrion to kill him. And if you don’t think so, a blind adherence to the source material is probably the only explanation.

  279. LordDavos12
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Loved the episode as a whole, and it was probably the best season finale of the series…

    but why no Stoneheart? I have to admit I’m very irritated about it :(

  280. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Most book readers are not complaining about LS here. The other adaptations though (Bad skeletion CGI, no Tysha, Rushed Tyrion scene) are legitimate complaints

  281. outdoorcats
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    The Hound vs. Brienne was amazing. The Wall stuff was very good. The rest was…shockingly disappointing. The decision to leave out the Tysha story, and Tyrion’s reveal to Jaime, was a major WTF in the storytelling department, since–here’s my reasoning here–even from an Unsullied perspective–Jaime freeing Tyrion just feels cheap, the get out of jail free card that he could have played all season and played at the last minute. If there had been a major fallout between them, it at least would have felt earned by some gravitas. Does that make any sense? It boggles my mind that they had the chance to do this amazing scene, one of the best of the books, and just passed it over.

    And although Dinklage and Dance were amazing, their final scene together was surprisingly lacking in drama. It just kind of…happened.

    And the decision to leave out LSH…sigh. I doubt she’s in the show if they weren’t going to do her here. And that’s a massive change, sort of a depressing one.

    In the end, except for Tywin’s death, it was much like any other GoT finale – more of an aftermath episode that quietly set the stage for Season 5. What on earth were D&D hyping us for?

    I’ve been an unadulterated fan until now and now I’ve become one of those whiny fans who complain it’s not like the books!

  282. KG
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    I liked them, too. How can you complain about a sequence taken directly from the book?

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Turncloak,

    I liked the skeleton wights…..ducks behind Bloodraven’s tree and hides from fireballs.

  283. KG
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    What sort of makeup would you have suggested? Rubber masks or actually cutting flesh away until the actors’ bones were showing?

    Turncloak:
    JTargs,

    Terrible skeleton wights!!!! I wish they had just used actual actors in makeup. Felt very cheap

  284. Polish
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Predictions for major story arcs for next season?

    King Landing — Cersei v. Margarey
    Dorne — Sand Snakes, Doran, Trystan (the new Quentyn?), Jaime and Bronn? (apparently?) — Queenmaker, a whole bunch of other new shit
    Meereen — Sons of Harpy for sure. Should hopefully be exciting
    Braavos — Arya doing sum training
    Essos — Tyrion + Varys + eventually Jorah … the real question now is about Griff and Aegon. Their inclusion is literally a crapshoot
    Wall — Stannis gonna Stannis, Jon’s election…etc
    Reek at Winterfell
    Brienne and Pod doing who knows what
    Sansa and Littlefinger doing who knows what (maybe these two stories will also collide)
    Bran and Bloodraven doing who knows what
    Maybe? Iron Islands Maybe?

    Holy fuck, that’s a lot of shit to cover still

  285. johnnytata
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Dornish Girl: Posters on this thread seem evenly split to me.Can you explain show Tyrion’s calm decision to go kill his father with no weapon?They made it pretty obvious he wants to live, and he’s smart.In the show version there is nothing to push him over the edge.He and Jaime remain besties, and Jaime doesn’t hear about Cersei and Lancel.That scene was never about Tysha.

    yes i can explain it, and tyrion does too, tywin has always wanted him dead, tyrion has never felt love from his father, and his father sentenced him to death only to try to manipulate him at the very end by lying like a son ofa bitch. straightforward.

  286. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    Justin DiMatteo,

    I think you’re overestimating the White Walkers. Show watchers and even book readers are more invested in Jon, Arya, Tyrion, ect. When we get White Walker scenes yeah it’s cool, but all you’re thinking is when will they reach the wall or what would Tywin or Cersei think about it. It would be the same with LSH

  287. Andy Gavin
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    All in all, a great episode, with a lot going on. The writers took their time with the stories they had, and this has relatively few cuts and a lot of extended time in one or another view point. We do miss out on a few, like Sansa, who’s wrap up occurred in Episode 38. Other characters like Theon or Margaery are just left wherever they were last visited. Like in the book we never really get the scoop on how/why Stannis came to the wall. There are also a lot of changes . The whole bit with the skeletons was slightly over the top — tres Sinbad. The new fight between Briene and the Hound makes sense. His book death is sort of senseless and her journeys seemingly pointless. This draws them together in a structurally more coherent way that is typical of TV (where avoiding new characters is a major concern — paper characters are much cheaper than actors). As usual, the body count was high among regulars: The Hound, Tywin, Jojen. As always, my detailed thoughts on this episode (and every other) can be found on my blog.

  288. Turncloak
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    I would have prefered to see non Skeleton Wights such as the one we saw attacking Sam in season 3 episode 1. The Skeleton CGI was poorly done IMO. Not nearly as good CGI as Dany’s Dragons.

  289. Tatters
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    “Worst piece of writing” Stop with the nerd rage already.
    Yeah, because Peter Dinklage didnt win an emmy the last time about Tysha… facepalm.
    You are only saying this because of your showpurism.
    Tysha is the major recurring trauma about Tyrion.

  290. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    The Unsullied fans on previously.tv seemed to really enjoy the episode. Two of them called it the best episode of the series. Maybe it’s not the end of the world. If only the Tyrion scenes weren’t rushed.

  291. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 15, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    It was good. But I can’t call the episode great. My biggest problem are with the fight scenes. The erratic cuts give me a headache. After seeing the great job Marshall did last week, you can really see the difference. With all the fight sequences this week, this weakness really stood out.

    Although I think D&D missed a great opportunity to close out the season, I’m alright with them moving it to next season.

  292. kris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    So sad and disappointed about Stoneheart….

  293. Jéssica De Freitas Maciel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I think book readers are flying blind from here on. I told a couple of my unsullied friends that tonight. I’m okay with that, so long as it doesn’t go into True Blood territory. If that happens, I’ll grab my pitch fork and lynching rope and join the mob going after D&D.

    I’m with you there, as of now i believe that D&D have made the best adaptation that could have been done, even if a lot of particular favorite moments of mine were left out.

  294. NDC
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Overall, great episode again. One minor thing I didn’t think was a great fit for me, was part of the Bran scene.

    “There’s a purist in every book reader and it stirs when you put stuff that belongs in Jason and the Argonauts in their ASOIAF”

    Ok, so it was pretty entertaing, but still :P

  295. Venger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    I can’t get involved in a show vs. books argument. I love the books and I’m loving the show. I can’t remember ever feeling so involved in a show, in my entire life. Involved. Actually feeling for the characters. Waiting in anticipation for another episode. Wanting it to move forward, but never wanting it to end. A television show. That’s pretty impressive to me. And that wouldn’t be the case if it wasn’t the quality that it is. The acting. The scenery. The effects and make up. The entire production. I have to remind myself that this is a television show. Would be nice if just a couple movies now a days put forth such an effort.
    So, arguing about books vs. television aside, I give applause to all involved in this series, and a thank you for a quality experience.
    Can’t wait till next season.

  296. Val
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    BranSnow,

    HELL YES I AGREE. I was SO embarrassed by that scene, when I was reading the comments and saw some people liked it i died a little inside.

  297. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    KG,

    To be fair, your response comes off as a bit reactionary. I’ve been a staunch supporter of the show’s use of digital effects from the beginning, but I felt the wight fight was shoddy by GOT standards. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to imagine other ways the scene could have been shot (or to think that those approaches might have been more effective at accomplishing the scene’s goals).

    It was mainly an issue of artificial movement and odd collisions (or a lack thereof) between the actors and the digital wights. The lighting seemed off in places, too.

    Obviously they really committed themselves to the sequence, since the choreography was fairly complex (given the fact that the enemies weren’t real), and it wasn’t a short fight. With that said, some of the wight shots were more convincing than others; to be clear, I’m not stating that the scene was bad from start to finish.

    But I think their budget would have been better spent on slapping some really convincing makeup on skinny actors to portray the wights as somewhat less deteriorated, but far more fully realized and convincing than the animated wights we saw. That should be taken with a grain of salt, obviously, since I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the scene’s production, and the digital effects could have been necessary for one reason or another.

  298. 2awesome4apossum
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Well, that was a fantastic episode. I do suspect that Lady Stoneheart will be the cold-open for next season. If she’s gonna make it in the show, they need to reveal her right off the bat before someone drops the ball and spoils it all.

    Then again, I suspect that book-readers will spoiler all of the show-watchers before next season anyway. Even if she plays no substantial role, I don’t see why they’d cut her. There have been plenty of storylines that don’t go anywhere that they’ve included, and this one is actually an interesting development in the story, so …

  299. johnnytata
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Maybe it’s not the end of the world.

    yeah, maybe not, imagine how the hell people with no knowledge of the books could possibly have survived the omission of a character they didn’t even know about.

    thank god they are blissfully ignorant of the swarm of locusts coming their way.

  300. mage
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    Leo: Quoted, because this cannot be said enough.

    nailed it.

  301. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    FUCKING SKELETONS!
    MAKES ME UPSET WORST CGI EVER
    WORST DEATHS EVER
    WHERE ARE STONEHEART
    NO STANNIS, STANNIS, STANNIS!
    THEON AND SANSA HATERSIJGGHIUGPGGUIGGLIHHGGILVVYGIOYOTVUOTEUEWUEnooneunderstands

  302. hedonism
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    BTW, I almost forgot, where are the WW, I just realized they weren’t in the finale, that’s six episodes w/o them. On another point I feel for Maisie, almost all the talk will be about the poor choice for the season’s closing scene, picking the forgettable shot of her sailing away to some awesome wtf moment even another cool inventive WW scene. It’s not the lack of LS, because I would forgive D&D her omission if we could just have wtf totally awesome climatic scenes like the birth of the dragons or the WW assault on the NW. I guess I am still absolutely dumbfounded over D&D’s poor choice for closing scenes the last two years, did they forget the internet and media buzz those first two season ending scenes generated, I just am scratching my head in bewilderment over their decision to continue this forgettable closing scene trend.

  303. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I liked the skeleton wights…..ducks behind Bloodraven’s tree and hides from fireballs.

    I tolerated the skeleton wights and the CotF fireball pseudo-wizardry but I was shocked that BR had two eyes. WTF? When rootman stated “1000 eyes and one” we laughed and *facepalmed* in unison. The whole point of the “and one” is that it is about his one eye! #ANGRYGOTFAN must be going nuts about that one. BR looked like he could get up and walk away from his chair. [sigh]

    Other than that, I didn’t mind the episode. Sad to wait for 9 months. At least a new ASoI&F short story arrives (via anthology) this week! More distractions before TWoW!

  304. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    How disappointing.

  305. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    We got Bloodraven. Now give me the Blackfyre/s and I will be happy. Oh, and Wyman Manderly.

  306. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    The other thing I forgot to mention was Qyburn. That scene was super creepy. I’m so glad they aren’t cutting that out. It looks like we are getting Robert Strong. Out of everything in the books Qyburn is the most horrifying to me. More so than Ramsay even. I just hope they leave a little of Qyburn’s methods to the imagination. It’s scarier that way.

  307. Coldhands
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Where is lady stoneheart :(

  308. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    NousWanderer:
    KG,

    To be fair, your response comes off as a bit reactionary. I’ve been a staunch supporter of the show’s use of digital effects from the beginning, but I felt the wight fight was shoddy by GOT standards. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to imagine other ways the scene could have been shot (or to think that those approaches might have been more effective at accomplishing the scene’s goals).

    It was mainly an issue of artificial movement and odd collisions (or a lack thereof) between the actors and the digital wights. I was just taken out of the scene.

    Obviously they really committed themselves to the sequence, since the choreography was fairly complex (given the fact that the enemies weren’t real), and it wasn’t a short fight. With that said, some of the wight shots were more convincing than others; to be clear, I’m not stating that the scene was bad from start to finish.

    But I think their budget would have been better spent on slapping some really convincing makeup on skinny actors, and portray the wights as somewhat less deteriorated. That should be taken with a grain of salt, obviously, since I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the scene’s production, and the digital effects could have been necessary for one reason or another.

    Yes i agree. Good point. Maybe they felt they needed to shoot the seen in CGI but I felt it was shoddy as well

  309. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    It wasn’t clear whether he had two eyes, to me at least.

  310. hedonism
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    2awesome4apossum,

    Obviously you haven’t realized that EW just dropped the ball a little while ago, their writer spoiled the LS reveal and who she is in their headlines, artwork and opening sentences covering the finale. Apparently the EW writer is not a fan of the character, perhaps Dan or Dave were writing as a pseudonym.

  311. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    NDC:
    Overall, great episode again. One minor thing I didn’t think was a great fit for me, was part of the Bran scene.

    “There’s a purist in every book reader and it stirs when you put stuff that belongs in Jason and the Argonauts in their ASOIAF”

    Ok, so it was pretty entertaing, but still :P

    Jason and the Argonauts is a myth that has endured for two millennia. I’m fine with a little of that in my ASOIAF. :)

    Though I do agree that the fight with the skeletons seemed strangely artificial, and the flame-throwing “Child” was odd. They should have dialed down the CGI here, and gone for a more natural and mysterious tone. It felt a bit too Peter Jackson-esque (which makes sense, as Jackson is also heavily influenced by Harryhausen, just as Graves was for this scene…)

  312. The Unburnt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos–it still came relatively out of nowhere. Tyrion was not shown for quite some time, and considering the cliffhanger in large part was hinging on whether or not he’d live or die (for unsullied viewers), and his fate in general, it was as if he was tacked on at the end there. Of course there has been plenty of motivation for him to hate Tywin to that degree, but it hasn’t been built on for a few episodes now, there was no lead up at all. The show is usually rather careful to foreshadow and lead up to big events such as the death of a major character, though they are still made to shock and be a bit out of the blue, but not in this case. It was just not well done.

    All we got was that he was being sprung by Jaime, then for some relatively random reason decided to go vent this murderous rage….to tie up a loose end that has been obviously bothering him his entire life? In that case, he could’ve just done away with his father in some clever Tyrion-ish way they could’ve re-written entirely. Instead, we got the scene sans the good stuff. Or any stuff. A rushed Tyrion scene. That isn’t even standard for the show. We didn’t even get the fulfillment of Tyrion’s reaction to his decision to kill Tywin, a la the long shot of Arya looking at The Hound as he begged for death. Just, btw guys, here’s what happened to Tyrion! He didn’t die, he got to escape, and oh yes, he murdered Shae and Tywin in the process!

    Look at twitter and any forum of “unsullied” viewers the last several weeks, they have all hinged on what Tyrion’s fate would be. They dedicated plenty of airtime to his trial. His imprisonment. His trial by combat. Then he fell off the map entirely, and viewers were left with just those few minutes of one of the most popular characters of the entire tv show. That is my gripe, aside from not seeing the scene I loved in the book and the removal of immediate motivation. It was just, “oh yeah, Tyrion, the guy on trial for his life, awaiting a death sentence, we have to show him getting away somehow, but keep it quick….”

    I think that’s one of the broader points, all talk of Tysha aside. And the revelation that someone had actually loved Tyrion for being Tyrion WAS actually important, IMO. And was taken from him by the one person, other than Cersei, most dedicated to denigrating him his entire life. Now he doesn’t even have that, and I doubt Jaime’s going to send him a raven in the next season to let him know.

  313. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    johnnytata: yes i can explain it, and tyrion does too, tywin has always wanted him dead, tyrion has never felt love from his father, and his father sentenced him to death only to try to manipulate him at the very end by lying like a son ofa bitch.straightforward.

    Good reasons. But to decide to sacrifice his own life to attempt to kill Tywin is out of character. He is smart, and he wants to survive. Unlike Jon Snow his suicide mission does not come out of desperation as it does in the books, and that makes all the difference . . . to me. Love D&D. Would never want to be them, but this is something I don’t understand.

  314. Phil
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    really pissed they killed Jojen off. There was really no need for that. I also wasn’t too thrilled with the Brienne/Hound fight. And after the fight she looses Arya anyway, much like the Craster plotline, it just seemed like another random loop into nowhere. D&D seem to be intentionally throwing in random plotlines that go nowhere, maybe to keep HBO happy while also giving time for GRRM to write the books.

    My guess is no LS til end of season 5 Brienne will do her whole plotline with Pod and Meribald and Hyle Hunt, and find Gendry late in the season which will lead to Stoneheart

    what the heck is bran gonna do next season? Maybe he’ll just be in like 3 episodes talking with the three eyed raven. I’m also guessing with Jamie in Dorne next season will just be filler and season 6 will be him in the Riverlands, again D&D seem to be using filler to give GRRM more time

    Hoping for Winds of Winter in January 2016. Jon has A LOT to do next season considering he hasn’t even been elected Lord Commander yet They’ve got one more season and then they’ll be mostly caught up with the books I think, minus a few plotlines they will have to wrap up.

  315. TheNorthRemembers
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Now I have to keep the Stoneheart secret from my wife for another year? Thanks a lot, GoT!

    (That being said, loved the episode. I just thought all season that they would end it with the Stoneheart reveal.)

  316. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    People complain about no zombies
    People complain when there are zombies
    Zombies dont exist in real life, so stop complain you know your favorite fantasy show can make people come back to life,
    Lord of the rings does it
    Harry Potter does it
    Narnia does it
    I know you get attached to characters but it wont stop the lord of light.

  317. Phil
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Varys will probably fill in for Illyrio Mopatis, and then go back to KL after Tyrion gets on the next boat with Griff. Really disapointed they didn’t cover Tysha, but Varys could do that, though it still sorta wrecks the Jamie/Tyrion end from Storm, though “where do whores go” really doesn’t seem to have any effect on ADWD stuff anyway.

  318. Jared
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    OK, I just watched the finale for the second time, back-to-back. I loved it even more upon the rewatch, once certain expectations had been dispensed with. This was already my favorite season of Game of Thrones, and now “The Children” is probably my favorite episode of the show.

    That fight between Brienne and the Hound was FANTASTIC. I don’t give the slightest damn that it wasn’t in the books. It’s easily in the running for the best duel in the show’s history, and we’ve seen some great ones. I suspected that neither one would end up dealing the fatal blow to the other, every blow hurt because we’ve grown to care about both of these characters so much. And the aftermath of that battle, where the mortally injured Hound is begging Arya for the gift of mercy was perfect. Rory McCann sold every word and every beat of emotion in that scene. He’s been an underrated yet extremely valuable member of the ensemble cast for a long time, but this the best scene that he’s ever gotten to do on the show, and he crushed it. And Maisie Williams … so good. She was silent almost the entire time, but she didn’t need to speak. She said all that she needed to say with her eyes. Her arc next season in Braavos should be stellar, and I can’t wait to see it!

    The scene between Tywin and Tyrion was equally fantastic. Yes, Tysha wasn’t mentioned and I’m sure that Certain People are pissed, but ultimately it didn’t matter, at least to me. Tywin has inflicted so much pain on Tyrion that Tyrion’s actions were believable even without the reminder (and the Tysha thing did still happen in the show canon, so it still informed his response). Tyrion’s relationship with Shae, which was far stronger on the show, provided sufficient kindling for the spark that set him off on his murderous spree (and I found Tyrion’s murder of Shae to be far more dramatically potent because of it).

    Speaking of stronger relationships on the show than in the books, Jaime and Tyrion’s goodbye was extremely touching. Frankly, I’m glad that they parted on good terms – once again, changes be damned. I also really liked Jaime’s ‘reconciliation’ with Cersei and Cersei’s confession to Tywin. Once again, purists will whine that the spirit of those scenes weren’t true to the characters from the books, but at this point, I think that you can guess how I feel about said purists.

    Stannis’s arrival was a nice moment, even without the chanting, which … whatever. I thought that Jon’s discussion with Tormund about the dead and specifically Ygritte, followed by Jon giving his fallen love a private funeral pyre and then breaking down in tears really brought a nice bit of closure to that relationship, on top of Ygritte’s dying words to Jon last week. The room got the slightest bit dusty for me there.

    Daenerys being forced to chain her dragons was another nice moment. Emilia Clarke gets a lot of hate from some corners for her performance, but I think that she’s great and I loved how she handled the scene where she cries as she leaves her children in the darkness. If she gets nominated at the Emmys again, this could possible be her submission episode (this, or “Breaker of Chains”.

    Bran making it to the Three-Eyed Raven was also cool to see. Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest both looked sufficiently ethereal and unsettling. And yes, Jojen is still (barely) alive in the books, but I think that we all knew that he wasn’t long for this world (I never bought the Jojenpaste theory, but it was bound to happen eventually). Meera’s anguish over Jojen’s death was another nicely tragic moment in an episode that was full of them. I appreciated the payoff to Jojen’s vision of his body burning as well.

    Finally, let’s talk about the elephant in the room: Lady Stoneheart

    Yes, I was expecting her to show up at the end, either with the Freys or with Brienne,, but ultimately I’m perfectly fine with her absence (I actually liked the ending that we got – a rather hopeful beat with Arya boarding the ship to Braavos). But since purists will be in a twist about it, I see two possible options concerning Lady Stoneheart in the series:

    1) They’re saving her for a later reveal in Season 5. If that’s the case, then I trust Benioff and Weiss to handle her eventual introduction well. Once again, I understand why they chose to end what has been an incredibly dark season on a more hopeful note, so I’m fine with them deciding to hold off.

    2) Lady Stoneheart ultimately isn’t that important. Maybe she dies (permanently) shortly into The Winds of Winter, or maybe she just doesn’t have any significant role to play in the endgame of the series. If that’s the case, then quiet honestly I’ll be OK if we never see her, and she’s cut from the show. At this point, I care about the big picture, not minor details and tertiary characters.

    I’ve got much more to say about this episode, but I’ll leave it there for tonight. Great episode. Great season. Great series. I can’t wait for next year!

  319. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    The Unburnt:
    ArgonathofBraavos–it still came relatively out of nowhere. Tyrion was not shown for quite some time, and considering the cliffhanger in large part was hinging on whether or not he’d live or die (for unsullied viewers), and his fate in general, it was as if he was tacked on at the end there. Of course there has been plenty of motivation for him to hate Tywin to that degree, but it hasn’t been built on for a few episodes now, there was no lead up at all. The show is usually rather careful to foreshadow and lead up to big events such as the death of a major character, though they are still made to shock and be a bit out of the blue, but not in this case. It was just not well done.

    All we got was that he was being sprung by Jaime, then for some relatively random reason decided to go vent this murderous rage….to tie up a loose end that has been obviously bothering him his entire life? In that case, he could’ve just done away with his father in some clever Tyrion-ish way they could’ve re-written entirely. Instead, we got the scene sans the good stuff. Or any stuff. A rushed Tyrion scene. That isn’t even standard for the show. We didn’t even get the fulfillment of Tyrion’s reaction to his decision to kill Tywin, a la the long shot of Arya looking at The Hound as he begged for death. Just, btw guys, here’s what happened to Tyrion! He didn’t die, he got to escape, and oh yes, he murdered Shae and Tywin in the process!

    Look at twitter and any forum of “unsullied” viewers the last several weeks, they have all hinged on what Tyrion’s fate would be. They dedicated plenty of airtime to his trial. His imprisonment. His trial by combat. Then he fell off the map entirely, and viewers were left with just those few minutes of one of the most popular characters of the entire tv show. That is my gripe, aside from not seeing the scene I loved in the book and the removal of immediate motivation. It was just, “oh yeah, Tyrion, the guy on trial for his life, awaiting a death sentence, we have to show him getting away somehow, but keep it quick….”

    I think that’s one of the broader points, all talk of Tysha aside. And the revelation that someone had actually loved Tyrion for being Tyrion WAS actually important, IMO. And was taken from him by the one person, other than Cersei, most dedicated to denigrating him his entire life. Now he doesn’t even have that, and I doubt Jaime’s going to send him a raven in the next season to let him know.

    This.

  320. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    The Unburnt,

    Tyrion’s battle with Tywin at the trial was all the foreshadowing we needed. Furthermore, there was a broader foreshadowing from all of Tywin’s children.

    In episode 1, Jaime defies Tywin. In episode 6, Jaime confronts Tywin and Tyrion defies Tywin (and his deal) at the trial. In episode 10, Cersei defies Tywin, refusing to marry Loras and threatening to air her incest-soaked dirty laundry. And in the same episode, Tyrion commits the ultimate defiance and kills him.

    But the buildup has been happening since the beginning of season 3, really (or even season 1, if you count Tyrion’s Tysha reveal in the tent with Bronn and Shae). The show has been building to this moment in earnest since Tyrion was removed as Hand of the King, and ignored, ridiculed and brutally dismissed by Tywin after Blackwater (that scene where Tyrion asks for Blackwater, and is rebuffed, is one of the most painful scenes I have ever watched). It was a slow build, and this is a very natural conclusion.

    All of the unsullied I’ve spoken with found this to ring true, and some of them have been predicting this death for some time.

  321. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    WORST FINALE EVER
    QUITTING THE SHOW
    FCK HBO
    FUCK HUMANITY
    FUCK ALL WORTHLESS NONREADERSV76PY67VYIYYIVYYIOCTYICTYIOTCYOUT5OC5UOCTYKLHLHK, JHLUGKLVCUKGLKHGHKYLCKTYICTYILGYILCIØYGVYUTVPYCT5UT5UPV5TGVYUVY

  322. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    It wasn’t clear whether he had two eyes, to me at least.

    Were you watching with one eye closed perhaps? ;)

    He clearly had two eyes that were blinking…perhaps he was blind in one? The weirwood tree needs to be immersed in his brain/mind/head. Aaaahhhhh! He is one with the root!

  323. Tim
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    I wouldn’t count out Lady Stoneheart yet, like previously stated, they wouldn’t bring someone back who was such a great actress and big role on the show for the last episode. One thing I’ve noticed is that they are also re-arranging the timeline slightly to cover details of what characters they have instead of what is in the book. Also to prep the larger portions/chapters of the characters whose roles will be making a bigger impact on the Westeros, including interactions in between characters to make up for the loss of cast that they have to cut because of costs. (Brienne vs. The Hound). But the episode in general I found to be very entertaining and a great success, probably more so to those that aren’t acquainted to the details of the book. Yet there are some gaps that I’m curious on how they will be tackled. Jon Snow’s storyline has been exponentially changing throughout the seasons, including those within the Night’s Watch, as we see he wasn’t imprisoned on his return from the North, or led the defense that held off the Free Folk siege for a few days before his superiors came that tried to execute him and send him to assassinate Mance who states during their negotiations he has the Horn of Winter. But they are keeping to the bit on the Mountain’s outcome with Qyburn and what might come of her new “perceived” role as head of the household, I do like how they added her revealing she can destroy Tywin’s dynasty with the truth of her children’s father to further drive that point home, even how he revealed it was her time to take her role for the family. I do hate the neglect of the truth on Tysha from Jamie to Tyrion but I’ve noticed also that the writers tend to not bring up a detail early on if they don’t plan to use it later, so I think the truth may be told in a different light. I am disappointed on the lack of Coldhand, the lack of character detail on the Three-Eyed Crow or as he said, once a lord named Brynden and the early death of Jojen (though he did state that in a green dream he had of his fate returning home to Greywater was not a good one). But the show does tend to recast and in turn changing the look of the characters, so this may be a stand-in for the finale until they get a more “permanent” actor for next season. So that may be why the introduction was vague and to the point.

    All in all, I am looking forward to how further this show goes with their adaptation of the books and furthering the overall success of the series. And of course the next book!

  324. perkins
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Didn’t like brienne besting the hound twice. Figured he should have had a few drinks in him to lose.

  325. Ritas Smith
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    So Jojen is not paste fed to Bran. Interesting about the fire throwing by COT. Good thing that Melissandra was not shown fire-throwing, might give too much away. Melissandra and Jon Snow will have more than a meaningful look over the fire in the future.

  326. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Tatters,

    Im not complaining about zombies, im complaining about bad CGI. Would have preferred wights from season 3 or better CGI

  327. Bran the Baker
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    Awesome episode all around.

    I can see why book readers might get a little down because of the lack of small details in the story that the books provide. My wife is an unsullied so I get to see the show from her perspective, and I can totally see why D&D is simplifying the story. As a television show watcher you simply do not have quick access to freshen up on the back story like you do with a book.

    For example, I had to explain why the captain was suddenly ok with Arya coming on his ship after she gave him the coin and said “Valar Morghulis”. The precursor to this scene happened two years ago so it’s definitely not fresh in memory.

    I’m thankful I didn’t have to explain Tysha. Did Tyrion really need yet an additional reason to kill Tywin? I think most people would conclude that he was well justified and his actions were not over the top.

    Jojen’s death was pretty shocking. I did not see that coming. I think I prefer this death to him becoming paste.

    My wife asked me about the skeletons, and I admit I was at a loss. I always assumed they would have a little more “meat” on their bones.

  328. Tryrion Pimplap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    I am rarely one to get all hot and bothered by the differences between the show and the books. While disappointing, I can understand how certain choices may benefit the television show and streamline the plot.

    However, the decision to not include the Tysa revelation is a big loss to me. D & D may have felt the audience would have forgotten about it, but then they should have replaced the beetle scene with a mention by Tyrion regarding his biggest regrets or something of that sort. The Tysa reveal is THE driving factor as to why he goes to the Hand of the King only to be betrayed again by the presence of Shae.

    And what about excluding the scene where Jaime threatens Varys to help Tyrion escape? That was another missed opportunity. I don’t believe Varys would have done it willingly and it showed Jaime’s commitment more than just a surprise entrance.

  329. House Nieder
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    TheNorthRemembers,

    No problem, James Hibberd has a nice article with a nice photo of Lady Stoneheart for everyone to see and discover.

  330. Phil
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    on am completely separate note, really hoping the season 4 blu ray cover is not the silly bird photo, or at least that best buy does special covers (though not the same houses) They did so well with season 1 and 2 regular covers, didn’t care for season 3′s (got the Lannister red one for Red Wedding) But the bird thing is silly.

  331. Rad1999
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Maybe I was expecting LS but that was a good ending not a great one. I had to watch my Spurs win the NBA title to see a great ending. D&D come on, it was there for the taking.

  332. park
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    i’d have to think they are saving the tysha thing until next season and maybe substitute a face to face with jaime with a face to face with varys who, being a spymaster who knows everyone’s secrets, tells him. or something like that. i dont think they’d just cut it because it completely changes tyrion and jaime’s relationship.

  333. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Phil,

    Season 4 blu ray will be the raven cover (its always the promo poster). I will lose my shit if they make people vote on the alternate covers on fb again

  334. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    The show will now never be able to do a shocking Stoneheart intro. She’s all over the darn internet. She trended higher on Twitter than characters actually in the episode, and that EW article gives away the spoiler before even opening it….

  335. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    Bold prediction, I think Charles Dance wins the Emmy for supporting actor. He is a well respected thespion who has never been put forth to be nominated until this year.

    My top 5 in MVP voting for this season:

    Actors:

    1. Rory McCann
    2. Pedro Pascal
    3. Peter Dinklage
    4. Charles Dance
    5. Alfie Allen

    Actresses:

    1. Sophie Turner
    2. Maisie Williams
    3. Gwendoline Christie
    4. Lena Headey
    5. Kate Dickie

    There weren’t as many standout female performances as in years’ past, IMO. Mostly because of screen time.

  336. Michael Martinez
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    Mister Stoneheart,

    You know you are going to keep watching. Who are you kidding?

  337. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Rebecca:
    The show will now never be able to do a shocking Stoneheart intro. She’s all over the darn internet. She trended higher on Twitter than characters actually in the episode, and that EW article gives away the spoiler before even opening it….

    link?

  338. Brianne Aubin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    I’m so mad Jaime didn’t tell Tyrion about Tysha. That was one of the things that made Tyrion mad enough to go kill Tywin in that moment — The lie about Tysha!! I HATE that they left that part out because I felt it was so important for the emotional peak in the scene with him and Jaime. I’m super disappointed. I’ve let A LOT slide without commenting this season, but that really pisses me off. It would’ve taken 30 seconds to add that to the scene! How about show that instead of killing Jojen or having Arya meet Brienne. Why leave out vital info from the book just to add on invented, made-up bullshit???

  339. Ed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Yep, totally agree.

    They went away from the books and I love it. And I love the books.

    Awesome.

    Laurent Guillemard,

    Laurent Guillemard:
    This blew my mind. They completely got away from the books. That was awesome.

  340. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    Fuck James Hibbard and Ew.com! That’s all I can say. If he is speaking with D&D’s words, then let them come out and say LS is cut.

  341. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    I just went to the unsullied recap thread and it looks like the reactions are pretty positive. Just as I thought. The absence of the Tysha reveal means jack shit to them.

  342. shadowcat
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Great episode, but I am really confused. Well Tywin and Tyrion’s scene was executed flawlessly and I loved that Jaime and Tyrion left on good terms. Got some issues though as a book reader such as
    1.What was up with Brienne vs. the Hound? I mean it worked fine for the way the show took Arya and the Hound’s relationship but i hate that Arya just left him there.
    2. Skeleton warriors? I can dig it. I’m guessing those are what wights look like in the show.
    3. Coldhands! I think the show may have forsaken him.
    4. Where. Is. Lady. Stoneheart.

    Had an usullied friend that was like “It’s easier for me to just pretend the books don’t exist.” and my response was “At this point, yeah me too.”
    Not a complaint… just confusion. Show is still great. Just… hmm.

  343. Dornish Girl
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Top 3 Adaptations:
    3. Brienne/Hound/Arya
    2. Tyrion and Shae
    1. Dany and dragons

    Top 3 Missed Opportunities:
    3. LS
    2. Drogon flying away from Mereen
    1. Tysha

  344. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Ed,

    Other than the Brienne fight and LS they stuck to the book. Just executed poorly imo in some scenes.

    Brienne, Stannis, Arya, scenes were terrific. Bran and Tyrions left something to be desired

  345. Einar Schloch
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    I feel like an Unsullied viewer after the Mountain vs Oberyn fight.

    How could they do this?

    How could they screw up the BEST dramatic scene in the book, between some of the BEST characters at King’s Landing, a scene that they had ALREADY SET UP groundwork for in season 1, for no other reason than thinking the audience is too stupid to wrap their heads around it?

    I don’t even know what am I or anyone is supposed to think about Tyrion now. Shame on you David and Dan.

  346. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    http://www.ew.com/ew/

    look at “Game of Thrones: Lady Stoneheart?” with a picture of Cat above it.

    http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-finale-lady-stoneheart/ that’s the actual article but the picture on the main page kind of spoilers it

  347. KG
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    I dislike everyone cutting their wrists over it. Any time you use CGI for fast-moving creatures there’s a danger of overdoing it.

    And again – none of us have ever seen a dragon, so we have no frame of reference. Contrarily, we have ALL seen skeletons and know perfectly well how humans can move. THAT is the root of the problem.

    NousWanderer: ne could have been shot (or to think that those approaches might have been more effective at accomplishing the scene’s goals).
    It was mainly an issue of artificial movement and odd collisions

  348. House Nieder
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    Rad1999,

    Glad to see a Spurs fan out here! Best ending of the night goes to that game!

  349. Topdecker577
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    The Lady Stoneheart surprise is ruined. Many people are spamming facebook and social media with pictures of an undead Catelyn Stark and their disappointment in her not being in the finale and it will be the major Game of Thrones conversation over the next 10 months.

  350. Coldfingers
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    “..Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated. ‘She don’t speak, but she remembers’…” :(

  351. Ed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    What was wrong with the CGI on them? They look as good or better than any other animated skeletons I’ve ever seen in any movie, and certainly better than anything I’ve ever seen on TV

    I didn’t like the fireball thing myself (I can’t remember if it was in the books or not), but I had ZERO problem with the CGI. I actually liked it.

    My son yelled, “Use a bludgeoning weapon!” I laughed, anyway.

    Turncloak:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I wouldn’t have minded the skeleton wights if the CGI was not piss poor. Also, not a fan of the fireball hurling. Took me out of suspension of disbelief mode in a way that seeing Dany’s dragons never does

  352. Arthur
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Lol…

    The Jojen getting stabbed scene is really bad..

    He just lays there getting stabbed slow motion in his gut… Both his arms are free, you’d think someone would raise their arms up in a natural reaction to try to block the knife.

    Lol everytime I watch that scene I laugh because its so corny looking…

    I don’t know, it was a good episode but I was kind of disappointed. It’s not in my top 5 for sure.

  353. Rygritte
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Characters I hate: Tysha, Mycah, & Shae the funny whore.

    Tysha was effective in driving Tyrion to hunt his father down, but i didn’t like Tyrion wanting to kill Jaime. Loved wherever whores go, Kettleblack & Moonboy.

    My favorite part was Stannis’ arrival with his army on horseback followed by The Red Witch seeing Snow in the flames & Brodor fighting with a sword. Brienne v Hound was difficult to watch through my tears.

    Mance & Tormund characters were much improved. Mance no longer looks 60+ years old & too delicate for snow.

    Pycelle would have made a better Bloodraven. :/ Bran’s whole storyline is a bit superfreaky.

  354. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Just can’t believe they went n’ cut it.

  355. House Nieder
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Let’s cheer up and talk about something else:

    In EW’s interview with GRRM, he said he has yet to reveal a few aspects of Tywin/Tryion/Shae and Varys’ motives in all of this. What do you think this teases?

    Also: Screw James Hibberd

  356. Steel_Wind
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    Jack Hamilton:
    No LS is one thing but to cut out Jaimes confession to Tyrion R.E Tysha is beyond baffling…

    Otherwise a solid episode.

    Look you people, it’s not “beyond baffling”. A non-reader of the book series would have to be hit over the head with a “previously on Game of Thrones” in the intro to call back to THE FIRST SEASON and it would lose its surprise quality *instantly*.

    Moreover, they changed the order of Jaime meeting Tyrion. He’s been there the whole season. They have had time to talk. Jaime knows Tyrion didn’t kill Joffrey. They’ve been through that. So there is no point going down the road of “yes I did it”. It would ring completely false.

    But what we DO HAVE is a different Tyrion/Shae dynamic. One where he loved her -and she probably loved him back it seems.She’s not just “golddigger Shae” in the show. And yet Tywin was banging her anyways.

    So they soften it a little, make it a little more “Tyrion as victim” where Shae goes the for the knife first and she fights back hard – he had to kill her really. He says “sorry”. And we move next into the garderobe and that is that. The motive is essentially the same, the outcome is the same and it all fits FAR more smoothly; rather than Tyrion killing Tywin over a girl we’ve never seen and who was explained briefly in Season 1 referenced a few times thereafter.

    You guys need to lighten the fuck up.

    As for Stonehaert, she may be in it — she may not be. Fact is, GRRM has not given us any real reason yet to think she’s important at this stage. Moreover, Jaime is going south to Dorne – not north near Brienne. And Brienne has SEEN Arya. So her conversation with Stoneheart goes in a very different direction now – and I don’t think this Brienne would make the same choices.

    I’m all for leaving Michelle Fairley ALL dead instead of “mostly dead”.

    I enjoyed all of the episode except for Dany; that’s not surprising though. Dany at this point in the story is more of a Debbie Downer than victim Sansa ever was. If we have to put up with her for an entire year in boring Mereen, I’ll scream in boredom.

  357. Bittersteel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Jojen Paste Debunked. Clegane Bowl confirmed, Sandor Clegane will fight Robo Mountain and be the faiths champion. Thank you tv show for confirming my theory and giving Jojen a proper death, Bring on Season 5 bitches.

  358. Dave
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    I’m Sullied and was fine w/the changes. Book readers, we’ll be in uncharted territory next season. Accept it or get off the ship now.

    Best season yet. What a show. Well done to D&D and all involved.

    “…and now, my Watch begins.”

  359. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Okay, so Bloodraven does have two eyes, and he isn’t an albino. Booooooooooo!!! How hard would it have been to put a prosthetic over one of his eyes or to put a red contact in his eye?

  360. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    KG,

    The point is that this particular (action) scene was sapped of its strength (to some) because (they believe) it failed in this respect. And while I appreciate the show’s use of CG in almost every case, I think it was unnecessary here, and might’ve prohibited a more effective solution–especially if a great deal of money was spent on it in lieu of a practical effects fight (which is merely conjecture, but not unreasonable conjecture given the cost of detailed CG). It’s not an unimportant scene–it frames Bran’s emergence into an entirely new stage of his journey, and it marks the death of a significant character. I’m not cutting my wrists over it, but it’s worth commenting on how well it succeeded (or how failed in ways that at least a notable minority acknowledge). And since that’s the case, pretending that these people are inches away from advocating that we actually cut the flesh away from the bodies of actors — as if there weren’t a massive number of convincing approaches other than straight CG — is disingenuous and silly.

  361. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Skeletons were fine. But why’d they have to take away Bloodraven’s defining characteristics? Why!?!?!

  362. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Rebecca:
    Turncloak,

    http://www.ew.com/ew/

    look at “Game of Thrones: Lady Stoneheart?” with a picture of Cat above it.

    http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-finale-lady-stoneheart/ that’s the actual article but the picture on the main page kind of spoilers it

    Wow I can’t believe EW (an HBO company no less) would effing spoil LS like that. What is wrong with James Hibberd?

  363. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    He’s a cunt. That’s what’s wrong with him.

  364. Howland Reed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    The pacing, the tempo, of the whole episode was off for me. Why rush through Tyrion’s line like that? Why not help us understand Jamie’s perspective on releasing T a bit more, especially after having sex the love of his life, who wants T dead?

    The absence of LS was TOTALLY due to the fact that season 5 will be positively barren where shocking moments are concerned. They are hoarding it for ep 5.1. Still, a bad call I say.

  365. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Also, dragons and ice zombies are cool, but bringing people back from the dead TOTALLY CROSSES THE LINE.

    I feel like he misses the whole point of the Stoneheart character as well. It doesn’t cheapen the Red Wedding because Catelyn got nothing back that she lost. Just the opportunity for revenge, after which she will probably end up dying for good (though I hope she sees one of her living children again before she goes, maybe then she can at least have a little bit of peace).

  366. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Howland Reed,

    Ah yeah the problem with that now, if that’s what was planned, is that I am pretty sure tons of non-readers have now been unintentionally spoiled.

  367. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe they rushed the Tyrion stuff. Biggest misstep of the season, other than the sept sex.

  368. Shock Me
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:01 am | Permalink

    My only disappointment was that the previously on mentioned Stannis. It ruined the reveal of him and Davos coming from the smoke.

  369. Gutts187
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Makes sense to save her for next season books 4 and 5 aren’t exactly full of shockers next season will
    Need it the show is known for that

  370. gewa76
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Stoneheart’s in Never Never Land, playing cards with Coldhands. Deal with it.

  371. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    Einar Schloch:
    I feel like an Unsullied viewer after the Mountain vs Oberyn fight.

    How could they do this?

    How could they screw up the BEST dramatic scene in the book, between some of the BEST characters at King’s Landing, a scene that they had ALREADY SET UP groundwork for in season 1, for no other reason than thinking the audience is too stupid to wrap their heads around it?

    I don’t even know what am I or anyone is supposed to think about Tyrion now. Shame on you David and Dan.

    It’s not a matter of D & D thinking the audience is too stupid to remember who Tysha is. A previously on flashback would’ve taken care of that.

    It’s a matter of emotional resonance. In the books we are in Tyrion’s head. He thinks about Tysha all the time. In the show she’s only been mentioned a couple of times.

    Shae on the other hand is a flesh and blood character who has been with us for 4 years. In the show universe she is far more important. The Tysha reveal is earth shattering. in the books In the show it would have only achieved the same level of importance if they had Tyrion constantly discussing her.

    If you look at from the point of view of what works best for television. This was the way to go. Exposition would’ve weighed the scene down. Remember this is first and foremost a TV show. It isn’t a book with pictures.

    I don’t mean to single you out here. I’m just hoping people, once the disappointment wears off can come around and appreciate the scene for what it is. Good TV. None of the unsullied in the other thread are confused about why Tyrion would kill Tywin.

  372. RamBam
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    To be honest, I didnt really like those skeleton zombies! were really cheesy and the little girl throwing fireballs made me feel like Im watching one of those crappy fantasy video games! Like the worst thing GOT can become is an actual fantasy show! I think most people watch it for the intrigue and the politics and human interactions etc.

    Overall a really good season but most things felt a bit rushed and quick! a lot more could be done with these characters I believe if they would add an episode or two or have longer episodes!

    Also, a general complaint about fight scenes all along this season! Please stop cutting the scenes to half a second frames! It makes our eyes bleed and also we cant see anything! you can just say that they are fighting but thats it! You have no clue WTF is going on!

    Season 1 did not have this problem at ALL! Go back and re-watch those fight scenes, camera was focused and steady, the scenes were long and uninterrupted and you could see and follow everything smoothly, after that….its just become like this, it seems they have become lazy in making fight scenes cos it is easy to take 200 shots and just mix them up rather than one nice long shot… just sayin…

  373. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    Lesson moving forward, enough with the hype! That goes for book readers hyping unsullied. Producers/writers/directors hyping the show. Let the episodes do the talking. Don’t tell us it may be “the finest hour yet”, let us decide for ourselves.

  374. Steve
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who really loves the look on Bran when he asked Bloodraven about making him walking again?
    The hopefulness expression that slowly turned into disappointment. It was so good I hope we will see more of Bran next season.

  375. Zack
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    I came very close to being 100% satisfied with the episode, and then on reflection I realized that my remaining issues really were nothing.

    I missed the Tyrion/Jaime argument, and Tyrion talking to Tywin about Tysha…but…I can understand cutting it. It’s really not necessary, and devoting time to bringing up that story again…there really wasn’t a need. It’s a nice bonus for viewers who will end up going through the books and getting a bit more subtext.

    But as I said, everything else, I loved. Great episode. My favorite season.

  376. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That’s what the ‘Previously On’ is for, dude.

    The amount of exposition needed was one or two lines. “Tyrion, we might never see each other again. There’s something I need to tell you, something I should have told you a long time ago. It’s about your wife.”

    “What are you talking about? Sansa?”

    “No…your first wife.”

    It’s the single most powerful and horrifying scene of ASoIaF, IMO. To me, leaving it out is like leaving out The Red Wedding, or saving Ned Stark. Before tonight I was a fan of the show. Now I’m a guy who will keep watching the show for the parts of it I like.

  377. Jaqen is Q
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Maybe we should stop with the whole “purism” complaints on both sides. Whether you liked it or not, anyone who opens their mouth seems to get shot down.

    Nearly every forum/comment section on the internet is a breeding ground for vitriol… ugh…

  378. Alexandre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Looks like they’re saving LSH’s content for Season 5; It will make great source material.

    This has got to be the best episode in the series so far, it didn’t feel rushed at all like some of the episodes beforehand in this season and it contained a good balance of action and drama.

    I love how we see more supernatural factors; the more dangerous it is the more north they are.

    The worst part now is the 10 month wait…

  379. gewa76
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Good idea. Next season, HBO’s marketing department should say “You can skip this one. It blows.”

  380. Blourd
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    I am SO glad we won’t have to listen to “Where do whores go?” for 2+ seasons of television.

  381. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    One complaint I will agree with is I don’t like the CGI wights. I liked the look of the wight Jon fought in season 1 and don’t why they decided to change the look so much.

  382. Clob
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    I’ve watched the episode a full three times now plus a few scenes several more times. I have to say that personally I love the final scene. Arya has been my favorite throughout the books and again in the show with Maisie doing so well. I couldn’t be more pleased with her being thrust to forefront by being in the final scene.

  383. Nick_Scryer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    An amazing episode brought down by my own stupid expectations. Being a book reader sucks sometimes.

    No LS was surprising, either she’s cut or they’ve made a mistake. Introducing her next year I fear is too late as it will be spoiled for many or will feel too “Jump the Shark-y”.

    The Major thing I’m pissed about though is Brienne beating the Hound. FUCK THAT. Even though he was already injured, no way, NO FUCKING WAY Brienne beats the Hound in combat. There’s just no way. Rory was awesome though.

  384. Zack
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    One complaint I will agree with is I don’t like the CGI wights.I liked the look of the wight Jon fought in season 1 and don’t why they decided to change the look so much.

    There is a difference between men recently killed and men killed ages ago. Skin, muscle etc decays. So I thought having them be skeletons instead of the traditional wights was just the show’s way of getting across the idea that these ones died much further in the past

  385. Bittersteel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    Steve,

    You are not alone big fan of Bran right here. Dude when that little girl starting throwing fireballs I almost clapped, but I was really sad when Brynden Rivers told Bran he won’t be able to walk again. Bring on Season 5 my body is ready.

  386. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer:
    An amazing episode brought down by my own stupid expectations. Being a book reader sucks sometimes.

    No LS was surprising, either she’s cut or they’ve made a mistake. Introducing her next year I fear is too late as it will be spoiled for many or will feel too “Jump the Shark-y”.

    The Major thing I’m pissed about though is Brienne beating the Hound. FUCK THAT. Even though he was already injured, no way, NO FUCKING WAY Brienne beats the Hound in combat. There’s just no way. Rory was awesome though.

    Brienne was fighting with Valyrian Steel and was in full health. I find Brienne completly owning Jaime in the show more unbelievable

  387. Clob
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    One complaint I will agree with is I don’t like the CGI wights.I liked the look of the wight Jon fought in season 1 and don’t why they decided to change the look so much.

    I haven’t seen it as a change. My view is that there are just different levels of decay. Those buried under snow for years in an area hardly visited being less fresh than those killed and changed a day ago.

  388. Joaquin De Las Carreras
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    I wish if Winter is Coming, or Ours is the fury or someone from the site can tell me if they know or can reach someone from HBO and ask if Stoneheart is officialy discarted. I think before season 3 there was a post that said that Strong Belwas was discarted from the show.
    I wanted LS to be the final scene for 2 years know. Ending with Arya sailing for BRAVOS was, like the last scene from season 3 with Dannys dragons flying,so GAY (and im not a homophobic dont get me wrong) for Game Of Thrones. The music composer for GOT is amazing but enough with the choir voices for the final song (Mysha and The Children resemble so much).
    Overall, great episode i dont want to say much becuase its 2 25:am in Argentina.

  389. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    gewa76,

    No, but the past few episodes suffered from overhype. This can not be denied. IMO. I don’t think any other show was as hyped by the producers/writers/directors as this season of Thrones was. I’m not going to hype individual episodes/storylines for my unsullied friends anymore. I’m just going to watch things unfold with them, as we readers clearly don’t know how things will work out in the show.

  390. Ragman's Harbor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Hmm.. I tried not to hope for Lady Stoneheart, and when I saw the river at the end I was 100% sure that was it. I just don’t get it.

    This season was absolutely a Lannister season, no Brotherhood, no Freys, no Blackfish. Bran got reduced, Theon got reduced, Dragonstone got reduced. It was afterall, their season to shine, but I’m glad (or hope) King’s Landing will get a little drop next season. There’s too much to handle and not much time for Intrigues in King’s Landing!

    Glad there was no Tysha. Tysha is fully part of Tyrion’s inner monologue. His character shift can be fully explained by the murder of Shae and Tywin. No need to confuse the viewers.

    3 eyed Raven.. I don’t know if any readers here on WiC who are from Quebec and know ”Fort Boyard”, but he looks exactly the same!

    http://boutiqueartinca.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Le-pere-Fouras.jpg

    Brienne and the Hound.. awesome cool. But I fear people will dislike Arya for leaving the Hound, he is a fan favorite.

    Stannis… can not wait for season 5. I just can’t. But I will. Duh.

    Its gonna be a long wait..

    PS: Owns of the episode; dragons and wights!

  391. Ulf da Wolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    So… this was the so much talked about episode.

    No, it was mediocre when compared to the hype.

  392. Einar Schloch
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger, it’s not just this one thing the show’s version left dangling. Among other things:

    - Jaime forcing Varys into action
    - Reveal of Joffrey’s involvement with attempt on Bran’s life
    - Continuation of the scene with Oberyn in that hating Tyrion for his looks is mostly a family thing
    - Tyrion punching Jaime, conflicting (and excellent) drama from Jaime’s perspective. “I killed your vile son”.
    - Revealing Cersei’s infidelity to Jaime. I was looking forward to “… and cousin Orson for all I know.”
    - Show Tyrion’s motivation for killing Tywin remains dubious.
    - They had already set up Tysha and her story, now it leads nowhere
    - Show Tyrion has no motive to go “where the whores go” and no agency other than crossing the sea

    I suppose the one positive aspect is that they needn’t bother with Penny anymore.

    Altogether, it was stupid, stupid, stupid. Wonder what GRRM says about it, as it’s EXACTLY the kind of dumb-down treatment he rightfully expected Hollywood to apply on adapting his books. I’m not a hater of the show, never was, but next to good adaptation changes this season has had several significant blunders. D&D are losing their touch. I can’t trust them to do a good job adapting the story anymore.

    P.S: What on earth was the scene that D&D said they were looking forward for 10 years to bring it on screen? That sure couldn’t have been it.

  393. Richard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    To all the complainers – D&D sent a message last episode

    It means that the person in charge gets second guessed by every clever little ….

  394. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    If they had to kill off some characters for budgetary reasons why not Meera instead of Jojen. Or they should have never even including her in the show and only added Jojen in season 3. Jojen is a much cooler character and much better casted than Meera. Sad to see him go.

  395. Jerry
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    TheSphinx:
    So we have come to the end of a Storm of Swords. Wtf does HBO do with books 4 and 5. There’s almost no action, certainly no battles. A lot of (great) internal stuff with Arya in Braavos, Bran in the cave and Samwell going to Oldtown. How can they introduce BloodRaven…now that we’ve seen him?

    I guess they can backfill with action in Dorne and the presentation of the Head. Maybe Valerion, Damphair and CroW’s Eye? DarkStar? Is that hoping for too much?

    It seems like they are casting for Cersei’s prophecy so I wonder if they are going to use Bran’s abilities as a way to introduce flashbacks to fill some time

  396. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Jojen died in the books too. At least I always assumed he did.

  397. \//
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:30 am | Permalink

    I loved the episode, as a book reader I liked most of the changes they made and having no Tysha really didn’t bother me at all. Thought they nailed Stannis, Tyrion and loved the Hound/Brienne fight as a change. The Bran thread finally went somewhere which was great (even with the CGI skeletons) and Dany locking up the dragons was very well done. That being said I felt slighted with no Stoneheart. The epilogue to SOS was one of my favorite chapters in all 5 books and wouldv’e been a perfect moment to close a great season. The show is by far the best on TV right now and they’ve done an amazing job adapting the books. But it felt like an empty ending without Cat.

  398. chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Joaquin De Las Carreras:
    like the last scene from season 3 with Dannys dragons flying,so GAY (and im not a homophobic dont get me wrong) for Game Of Thrones.

    Then don’t use ‘gay’ as a fucking insult. Jesus. It’s not rocket science.

  399. gewa76
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    I can buy that D&D truly believe this was the best finale of the four so far. I bet a lot of non-readers will agree. They were only overhyping it if you were expecting Stoneheart or the Tysha reveal. Case in point: @Sarah_Hyland: Perfect @GameOfThrones finale. I laughed, cried and am very happy with how everything was left :)

  400. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Lets get one thing settled right now. Arya’s ‘Valar Morghulis’ final scene > Dany’s Mhysa scene. Don’t even compare the two. And no, I don’t care that LS wasn’t in the episode.

  401. Steve
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    There’s a scene in the preview with a flock of crows flying through the forest, have they shown that? I don’t remember seeing it.
    JamesL,

    I don’t think it’s because of budgetary reasons. Jojen’s fate is pretty much marked with death in the last book. The show just confirmed it with a fireball.
    Or maybe you could say they want to put an end to the Bran and Jojen shipping.

  402. loco73
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    Now, after a second viewing (more will follow) of the finale of Season Four, I can safely say that I am one lucky fan! To have had the beautiful story of “A Song Of Ice And Fire” brought to and translated so beautifully for television in the form of “Game Of Thrones”, is trully a rare feat and a true treat for this here fan!

    It is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the men and women who stand behind this television series, their passion and tireless effort which allows the rest of us the luxury to watch this exquisit process unfold before our very eyes, for four years now, as Spring turns into Summer…

    They sure make it look soo easy, don’t they?! They take that monumental amount of work, the long days, the countless hours, all the problems, aches and pains and distill it all down to the rarified hour of television we have been lucky enough to watch since 2011!

    With that in mind, as another season ends and we have reached what is likely the half-point of the show, I would like to take this oportunity and thank each and everyone who participates and toils for us fans on this show, so that we might derive enjoyment from it, a prescious commodity in today’s cynical and oftentimes empty world.

    All the complaints, ridicule, venom and vitriol being constantly spewed, spat and vomitted on many of these threads, this one included, come from those who constantly do it like a broken record, while offering no alternatives, solutions or any effort of their own worth a damn…All these only serve as an insult and backhanded slap in the face of all those who work on our behalf as an audience and fans…

    Believe me reading even a little sampling of these brainfarts masquerading as witty critiques, makes one’s head spin faster than a wight’s skull being punched by Hodor!

    As Bronn once said, in now his most famous musing, “There is no cure for being a cunt”, and boy was he right! On this ocasion included…

    And here we are, Season Four concluded, and now a long wait ahead of us until Season Five! Every year since “Game Of Thrones” premiered, I always keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best for each season, and I am glad for every one we get, even at this point in time!

    Until then…Winter Is Coming!

  403. Larissa Baldwin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    The 3 eyed raven scene was better in my head… but i still loved the episode!

  404. House Nieder
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    As of right now, my favorite season is still Season 1. I’m probably alone in this but it was amazing. Seasons 2, 3, and 4 are all amazing in their own ways and therefore my preference of which seasons are superior shift when it comes to these three. The changes that are made… we get to the same places but the ways we get there are just so. . . Not the best. I’m not doubting D&D, I know people love to sit and say, “YOU try writing something this good,” which I probably couldn’t. But I just have the occasional quip with their choices and if that makes me a disgusting purist, whatever. I’ve always stood by the changes the show made, even Dany’s dragon debacle in season 2 but this season’s changes felt off to me in some places and I look forward to future seasons and books to see where we are being led.

  405. The Unburnt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    The Unburnt,

    Tyrion’s battle with Tywin at the trial was all the foreshadowing we needed. Furthermore, there was a broader foreshadowing from all of Tywin’s children.

    In episode 1, Jaime defies Tywin. In episode 6, Jaime confronts Tywin and Tyrion defies Tywin (and his deal) at the trial. In episode 10, Cersei defies Tywin, refusing to marry Loras and threatening to air her incest-soaked dirty laundry. And in the same episode, Tyrion commits the ultimate defiance and kills him.

    But the buildup has been happening since the beginning of season 3, really (or even season 1, if you count Tyrion’s Tysha reveal in the tent with Bronn and Shae). The show has been building to this momentin earnest since Tyrion was removed as Hand of the King, and ignored, ridiculed and brutally dismissed by Tywin after Blackwater (that scene where Tyrion asks for Blackwater, and is rebuffed, is one of the most painful scenes I have ever watched). It was a slow build, and this is a very natural conclusion.

    All of the unsullied I’ve spoken with found this to ring true, and some of them have been predicting this death for some time.

    That rather misses the point. Yes, of course there has been buildup. From the very first episode this has been set up regarding Tyrion and Tywin’s relationship (“All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes.”), but the absence of Tyrion since The Mountain and the Viper has been nonexistent. I’m not talking about overall plot here, but the scenes and buildup within the last 2 episodes. Cross cutting between Tyrion in his cell and the other scenes just a tiny bit during the finale would have accomplished this, or a final scene in the previous episode with Tyrion. The episode (and Tyrion’s arc, just in terms of the show this season) were building towards his fate and it fell a bit flat.

    I did just watch the scene again, and wasn’t AS dissappointed with it as what I had originally been left with, since I was desperately awaiting certain aspects from the book, but in terms of the show’s writing, I think this was a bit of a dearth overall compared to previous quality. My disappointment over the book notwithstanding, I would have found it a bit weak if I’d not read the books. My “unsullied” friends I watched with were impressed he killed Tywin, thought it obviously justified, but were basically also saying, “That’s it?”. The reaction on twitter is even a bit mixed from people who obviously haven’t read the books. Though some are just saying they feel less traumatized….lol…they had every opportunity to be cheering Tyrion’s triumph and Tywin’s comeuppance, and they didn’t really get the chance. That’s writing and timing of the scene, not just leaving out certain aspects from the book, as people were waiting for this moment since Tyrion was first accused of Joffrey’s murder.

    That’s mainly what I am trying to express.

  406. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    I’m surprised how many people still think Lady Stoneheart is going to show up in the show. She probably won’t show up in season 5 and people will still be waiting for her in season 6. They need to just come out and say whether or not she will be in the show. What could possible be the satisfying end game for a character like that? I think she is lame plot twist in the books but is tolerable because she remains on the peripheral like the white walkers. If she becomes a major player in the story it will be ridiculous and look 10X more ridiculous on film. What ever GRRM has planned for her he probably told D&D and they realized it was something that wouldn’t work very well on TV.

  407. Benjamin Wakefield
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    I generally loved the episode, especially every scene with Arya and Brienne. Let’s not forget Frankenqyburn the necromancer with his massive syringe and the scribe justifying selling himself back into slavery.

    However the Wight attack was bad in a way that reminded me of the Army of the Dead in Return of the King, it wasn’t badly executed, just that skeleton battles belong in kids’ cartoons and videogames, and clash awkwardly in a live action drama in a way that other supernatural elements don’t.

    Lady Stoneheart and the brotherhood are a new plot thread that has no direct relationship to anything else going on in S4, it has no place in the finale but it will come in at the beginning of S5 and play out throughout the season. Let’s not consider GRRM’s pacing sacrosanct, he did leave the battles of Winterfell and Mereen out of ADWD!

  408. TheBerylfly
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    Someone up in the comments on another of those “horrible book purists!!” rant put it best (unintentionally, perhaps): it’s about “Tyrion as a victim”. Again, and again, and again they whitewash Tyrion as hard as they can, changing vengeful murder out of misguided sense of betrayal into… self-defense, really?
    There are many other changes I am really pissed at (such as Cersei and Jaime, color me of the same opinion as Fury on this one), but strangely not LSH. Martin handed D&D the perfect ending, and they decided they knew better. Again.
    Also, no JoPaste for the show((

  409. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That’s what the ‘Previously On’ is for, dude.

    The amount of exposition needed was one or two lines. “Tyrion, we might never see each other again. There’s something I need to tell you, something I should have told you a long time ago. It’s about your wife.”

    “What are you talking about? Sansa?”

    “No…your first wife.”

    It’s the single most powerful and horrifying scene of ASoIaF, IMO. To me, leaving it out is like leaving out The Red Wedding, or saving Ned Stark. Before tonight I was a fan of the show. Now I’m a guy who will keep watching the show for the parts of it I like.

    Did you deliberately miss the point or do you have reading comprehension issues?

    I specifically said that not knowing who Tysha was isn’t a problem because they can do previously on to refresh memories.

    I said that because we are not in Tyrion’s head in the show, Tysha just isn’t an important figure in the show. Shae is.

  410. Keelah
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    I am a rather casual fan of GoT and even I could not believe how hurried the Tyrion scenes were. The book carries so much more weight here when Jaime reveals the Tysha secret. It would not have taken long for him to say this ” Remember Tysha… the woman you were to marry…” Jaime knew it could be the last time he ever sees Tyrion and wanted to tell him the truth. It totally makes sense and would have “confused” no one.

    Great dialogue and extra psychological trauma was cut here, this is the one time I agree with avid book readers in their surprise. It just didn’t make a whole lot of sense to throw those moments and great lines out. In my opinion the Tyrion scenes ended up good instead of great.

  411. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Why “fuck James Hibberd”? Just because he has a different opinion than you and doesn’t like Lady Stoneheart. He has had the best GoT coverage and scoops since day 1. Not everybody is a fan of Lady Stoneheart.

  412. Atomix
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    I cried like a baby when Jojen got it. The stabbing all slow and methodical – reminded me of some horrible Prison Stabbing video I saw once for a few seconds.

    and yeah and STANNIS!!!! STANNIS!!!!!!

  413. Lost Stones of Varys
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    Unsullied. I have been lurking on this site for years but without comment. As a book reader it was initially my fellow fans that drew me to this site, but as the seasons have went on I have become a little tired of the complaints that the series is getting from those who expect a verbatim translation. The books will always be superior to the show .. but I for one enjoy the variation and not knowing exactly what will happen from week to week.

    I judge the television series based on the 4 unsullied I watch the show with and the unsullied on this site. Oz’s recaps are the highlights of my week.

    The deviations (and there are lot) I believe will are cleverly done and will end us up at generally the same point. The Sullied are a little upset with this episode over some important details in the Tyrion/Jamie farewell that were left out. I have faith that D&D will work them back in. I though this to be a phenomenal episode.

    Thank you unsullied, it is because of you that this show is a massive success.

  414. EverydayImHodoring
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: The Tysha reveal leading Tyrion to murder his father is, perhaps, the worst piece of writing GRRM has ever put to paper. The showrunners know this, and made the right decision.

    And do you seriously think that show Tyrion wasn’t given enough cause to kill his father? Here are his reasons:

    1. Injustice: His father wrongfully sentenced him to death, and has wished him dead for most of his life

    2. Betrayal: His father bedded the woman he knew Tyrion loved

    3.Disregard for Tyrion’s humanity: Tywin has no regard for the love Tyrion may have felt for Shae (whether or not Shae actually loved him is irrelevant – its the disregard for Tyrion’s feelings that’s the crime). Tywin is incapable of treating Tyrion as a human being.

    4. Philosophical differences: Tyrion has witnessed the brutality of his father’s actions, whether that be forcing Sansa to marry him, or ordering the slaughter of the Starks. Tyrion actually cares about the realm, and its people, and this adds to his motivation for killing his father.

    5. Survival: At least after he approached his father in the loo, Tyrion HAS to kill Tywin. He has escaped from prison after being sentenced to death, and he is pointing a crossbow at his father. There is no turning back at this point. He must kill him or be killed.

    All that, and purists are claiming that the omission of a revelation of an event that happened years ago (regarding a woman he met years ago), ruins Tyrion’s motivation for killing his father??? This is utterly baffling.

    Tyrion’s father DESPISED him, betrayed him and sent him to his death. That is more than enough motivation for Tyrion to kill him. And if you don’t think so, a blind adherence to the source material is probably the only explanation.

    pwnin’ the n00bs

  415. Violentos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:55 am | Permalink

    I didn’t even question the possibility that LS wouldn’t be the last scene of this episode. I was thoroughly convinced it would happen. I mean, no Catelyn Stark for an entire season, so why not include her in the finale? Viewers are going to lose interest in the character if left for too long…

    Other than that, the episode was amazing. The Tyrion scene was one of my favorite scenes in the book, so I had high expectations for it. It was done well, but I have to say that I wish they could have cut the Cersei/Jaime/Tywin scene and gave more screen time to that Tyrion scene. Jaime breaks him out of the cell faster than you can say “Imp”. Dinklage could have had time for a whole emotional Tysha speech before feathering his father.

  416. malcatraz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Amazing season but who the hell was the wizard in the tree?! That was a HUGE miss, look-wise. Was really looking forward to that scene and he looked awful.

    Also no LS, and no coldhands apparently ever and I’m mad.

  417. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    Loved:

    -Mance in general. Drinking with Jon, making a compelling case for the wildlings, and his refusal to kneel to Stannis.
    -Stannis’ arrival. When the smoke cleared and you saw it was them, pretty damn cool.
    -Brienne and Arya exchange
    -Breinne and Hound fight (maybe the best one-on-one fight in the series)
    -Cersei’s scene with Tywin
    -Tyrion’s killing of Tywin

    Liked:
    -Jon’s mini funeral for Ygritte
    -Fight with the wights. Liked the skeletons, thought the fireballs were a little cheesy, and honestly didn’t care much during Jojen’s death. Probably a little biased against Bran’s storyline anyway, though.
    -Arya going to Braavos. Not a “wtf” moment to end on, but a pretty decent ending, better than a hoehorned Dany scene involving some crowdsurfing.

    Slightly critical of:
    -Thought Cersei going to Jaime came out of nowhere. Last they spoke they were pretty much not forgiving each other over Tyrion, seemed odd to see them get together right before he escapes.
    -Jaime rescuing Tyrion always felt really convenient in its timing, even in the books. Jaime could have saved him whenever, but waited until after there was a dramatic trial and a tragic death to do it. Wished we would have had some explanation for why Jaime suddenly changed his mind about breaking out Tyrion.

  418. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    I have heard a number of people complain about the lack of leadup to Jaime’s decision to free Tyrion (particularly as ‘what’s going to happen to Tyrion?’ has been foremost in unsullied minds) but I thought the episode did an excellent and subtle job of delivering that rationale (so subtle, I suppose, that a number of people seemed to have missed it). Cersei’s defiance of Tywin, and threat to expose their secret, removed the mantle of fear, authority and invincibility that their father had held until then. Sort of how the “veil of fear” was lifted among Arab publics after the Tunisians took control of their government. Jaime loses his fear of Tywin, including his fear of retribution should it be learned that he helped Tyrion escape, as a result of Cersei’s act. Not only is he emboldened by her action, but the threat of exposing their incest to the world is too grave for Tywin to take lightly. This is seen by Jaime and Cersei as serious leverage over Tywin. They have the upper hand. And so Jaime makes an immediate decision to free Tyrion.

    IMO, this was done masterfully. I still can’t stop thinking about it.

  419. Fancy word for a sellsword
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    So if Qyburn can “save” The Mountain, does that mean the Martells don’t get a Gregor Clegane Skull Keg Party?

  420. Michael
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:06 am | Permalink

    I thought it was pretty fantastic, if there was anything I would change it would be both of the “I’m Sorry”‘s from Tyrion. That was unnecessary. If they’d added, “I should have left with you after the Blackwater.” I could have tolerated it. As it played out, I felt like Shae never truly loved Tyrion, it was always about survival for her, right til the end.

    I’m glad there’s no Tysha mention, it means we won’t get 3 episodes of Tyrion asking everyone “where do the whores go?” Tywin and Cersei heaped more than enough trauma on him, didn’t need that extra level of pathos.

    I was 50/50 on Lady Stoneheart, even thought maybe they’d pull a Marvel and have a scene after the credits. As it stands, I personally think she’s a lock for Season 5. Brienne has only one lead on Arya, and it’s the Brotherhood. We may not get a LS reveal early next season, but I think Brienne will have to meet her in the early episodes and we might get Jaime meeting her too by the end of the next season

    If only Winter WAS Coming, instead of Summer…now all we have to look forward to are months of speculation, speculation and more speculation.

  421. MustHaveTheGreyjoyUncles
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Seriously, who cares about Tyrion saying Where do whores go over and over again for a whole season. He still loved Shae so I get why they changed it from Tysha to Shae. While I would have liked it to be exactly like the books there. I actually enjoyed the show version. Strengthened the thought that Tyrion actually loved Shae. I don’t see how this could be a huge Butterfly Effect deal. Tyrion is still leaving and Tywin and Shae are dead. The major details are the same for the most part. I think the Butterfly Effect thing is overblown at times.

  422. Raga Dal
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    There is a book-reader’s theory that Varys set Tyrion up to kill Tywin the entire time. That he made sure Shae knew about the 3-headed dragon thingee in the floor so Tyrion would find the Hand’s chamber, made sure the crossbow just happened to be situated right under a convenient trunk that Tyrion could climb up to reach it, and that he convinced Tywin “I don’t consort with whores” Lannister to hook up with Shae *OR* just planted her in that bed without Tywin’s knowledge, possibly drugged (which is why she’s sleeping when Tyrion finds her). Also, that he may have poisoned Daddy Dearest with something, possibly Tears of Lys, to upset his bowels which is why he’s on the privy *and* why his corpse starts to smell awful and deteriorate so badly so quickly after his murder which is not normal.

    I have to say it did strike me as odd that Tywin would bother with a whore like Shae given how strongly he was opposed to her kind. Yeah, you can write it off as him being a big, fat hypocrite, but it really does not seem in character for Tywin at all.

    Remember Varys has his own agenda and is doing all sorts of surprise things like Pycelle and Kevan

    House Nieder:
    Let’s cheer up and talk about something else:

    In EW’s interview with GRRM, he said he has yet to reveal a few aspects of Tywin/Tryion/Shae and Varys’ motives in all of this. What do you think this teases?

    Also: Screw James Hibberd

  423. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:09 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen: -Jaime rescuing Tyrion always felt really convenient in its timing, even in the books. Jaime could have saved him whenever, but waited until after there was a dramatic trial and a tragic death to do it. Wished we would have had some explanation for why Jaime suddenly changed his mind about breaking out Tyrion.

    See my post above. Jaime does it now because he no longer fears Twyin, and the charge of treason and death. Cersei’s threat to expose their incest to the world gave them near-impenetrable armor against Tywin (who values family legacy above all), and that changed everything.

    Tywin’s children finally used Tywin’s love of legacy against him. Cersei threatened to permanently poison his “idea” of the Lannister family, and that threat completely hamstrings Twyin. He’s essentially been neutered.

    Frankly, he almost didn’t even need to die at Tyrion’s hands. Cersei had already killed him (or at least, killed his power over his own family).

    I actually have difficult believing how well this was done.

  424. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Just watched, sorry a little late but I’m at my sons boyscout campout and had to wait to watch it in hbogo. First reaction. Best episode yet, for book fans and show fans. Loved the story lines. Brienne vs hound was great and very we’ll choreographed. I’m soooo glad they decided to keep danys story line minimal and it was emotional. It Really touched my feels. Didn’t mind the change of Jamie’s freeing Tyrion and the omit acne of tysha for obvious reasons. I’m glad they left on good terms. The shae murder was done as well as it could of been. Not hating Tyrion for it. I like that we might see varys with Tyrion next season. Melisandras looking at Jon through the flames was great. They should of put stanniss arrival last episode. Although I we didn’t get the final scene we all wanted it was a good one I thought.

    Now my book fan rage. Why no stoneheart? Why? If it not the very first scene or last scene of the next episode tables might be flipped. Blood raven was cool but why is he not more of a tree where’s the wine stained birthmark and why does he have 2 FUCKING eyes? And I guess Jojen is actually dead? But I think we all knew that anyway. Although I don’t mind the weird fighting skeletons. Why is Tywin repeating over gain that Tyrion is his son although at they end of the scene they kinda made up for it.

    Oh and who knew the CotF were fire elementals . All n all being a huge book and show fan. I loved it it. Can’t wait to get home and rewatch on a real screen.

  425. rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Probably wishful thinking in a series like this but I have hoped she’d find out most of her children are still alive, and be able to die peacefully. She died thinking all her children were probably dead and then she couldn’t even rest in peace but came back to an existence where all she could do was try to get revenge…

  426. Arian
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    Polish:

    Or we could hope that george releases TWOW by then.

    was so happy to see leaf . almost cried #Nerdgasm
    No LS was a bummer tho :(

  427. KG
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    Defend the statement how you will, but saying “Use makeup” was downright foolish and well worth the scorn I heaped upon it.

    NousWanderer: ely false.
    But what we DO HAVE is a different Tyrion/Shae dynamic. One where he loved her -and she probably loved him back it seems.She’s not just “golddigger Shae” in the show. And yet Tywin was banging her anyways.
    So they soften it a little, make it a little more “Tyrion as vict

  428. Violentos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I think that the whole Tysha story was the straw that broke the camels back. It wasn’t the sole reason, and I hardly think that the people who are mad at the absence of the Tysha talk believe that it was. It’s one of many reasons for Tyrion to kill his father, but it was the extra push that brought Tyrion across that line. It was important. But I suppose the television series has to claim that Tyrion’s finding out that Shea was involved with his father was enough of a push. I just don’t buy that as much.

  429. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    Violentos:
    I didn’t even question the possibility that LS wouldn’t be the last scene of this episode. I was thoroughly convinced it would happen. I mean, no Catelyn Stark for an entire season, so why not include her in the finale? Viewers are going to lose interest in the character if left for too long…

    Other than that, the episode was amazing. The Tyrion scene was one of my favorite scenes in the book, so I had high expectations for it. It was done well, but I have to say that I wish they could have cut the Cersei/Jaime/Tywin scene and gave more screen time to that Tyrion scene. Jaime breaks him out of the cell faster than you can say “Imp”. Dinklage could have had time for a whole emotional Tysha speech before feathering his father.

    But that scene is essential for setting up why Jaime decides to free Tyrion. He no longer fears Tywin, who’s been neutered by Cersei’s threat.

  430. tempertee
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:14 am | Permalink

    eL,

    Yeah I thought the 3 eyed crow would be all interwoven into the trees. Like part bark and part human – aged and timeless. This just looked like an old dude stuck in a tree…

  431. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Because it wasn’t his right to spoil it for many unsullied in an article on a major website, especially right after the finale, when interest is peaked. If D&D have decided to cut the character, fine, let them announce it. Hibberd didn’t report that. He said she may still show up, and that pissed me off. A non-committal on the future of the character is basically a confirmation that she will still be included, IMO. Until D&D or GRRM or Cogman confirm LS is cut(As they have with Belwas and Coldhands), I will continue to believe she will be in season 5.

  432. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    Violentos:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I think that the whole Tysha story was the straw that broke the camels back. It wasn’t the sole reason, and I hardly think that the people who are mad at the absence of the Tysha talk believe that it was. It’s one of many reasons for Tyrion to kill his father, but it was the extra push that brought Tyrion across that line. It was important. But I suppose the television series has to claim that Tyrion’s finding out that Shea was involved with his father was enough of a push. I just don’t buy that as much.

    You don’t have to buy it. But I think you don’t buy it because of your knowledge of the books. This is all anecdotal, but I watched this with about 15 unsullied, and they all bought it. Hook, line and sinker. His father sent him to his death, and on the eve of his execution, fu$ked the woman he loved. That’s more than enough motivation!

  433. Bittersteel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    Violentos,

    So you are saying if Tyrion walked into Tywins chambers and found Shae in his bed, he wouldn’t kill Tywin because Tysha was never mentioned. I don’t think Tysha being mentioned or not would have changed the outcome of Tyrion killing Tywin.

  434. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    What was his motivation to enter the Tower of The Hand and seek out Tywin, though? And how did he know how to get there? The scene could have been stronger and even more emotional, IMO. It was my only complaint with the episode, well, other than Bloodraven not being a one eyed albino.

  435. RT
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    Phil,

    I was thinking the same thing with Jon’s storyline — surprised no LC.

  436. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Sorry but I disagree. Meera is a way better character then Jojen. First. If its budgetary reason, I have to assume that Jojens actor is better paid cuz he’s more well known. Meera is a badass even though they haven’t shown it too often in the show. There a slight love angle there with bran if they choose to pursue it. And most fans think Jojens dead anyway. I’m sad to see either of them go. Cuz I like the reeds but the show never got to involved with either one yet

  437. TheUnburnt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    Just thought this was kind of funny. A post on all of the extremely angry LS tweeters: http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/game-of-thrones-lady-stoneheart-omission.html

  438. Violentos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    Bittersteel,

    I don’t believe that Tyrion would have been pushed over the edge by his father’s involvement with Shae. She made it clear during the trial that she was against him, and he had all that time in the cell to come to terms with it. Tywin taking his wife Tysha (who wasn’t a whore and truly loved him it turns out), ordering his men to rape her in turn while he was forced to watch, all because she was a commoner. That’s a push!

  439. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That’s what the ‘Previously On’ is for, dude.

    The amount of exposition needed was one or two lines. “Tyrion, we might never see each other again. There’s something I need to tell you, something I should have told you a long time ago. It’s about your wife.”

    “What are you talking about? Sansa?”

    “No…your first wife.”

    It’s the single most powerful and horrifying scene of ASoIaF, IMO. To me, leaving it out is like leaving out The Red Wedding, or saving Ned Stark. Before tonight I was a fan of the show. Now I’m a guy who will keep watching the show for the parts of it I like.

    But WHY would Jaime tell him that then? I’m sorry, but GRRM erred on this one. There is no reason for Jaime to reveal this horrible secret at this time. “Hey bro, I may never see you again so let me tell you this thing that will make you hate your life even more than you do.” No reason for Jaime to reveal this. No reason, of course, apart from GRRM’s decision to amp up Tyrion’s motivation for killing his father. It was ham-fisted in the books, and deserved to be cut.

  440. Pointy End
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    here I am scrolling through the comments and seeing everyone all butthurt over various details and all I’m thinking is… FINALLY WE GET A DROGON NAMEDROP

  441. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Violentos:
    Bittersteel,

    I don’t believe that Tyrion would have been wounded enough to kill his father just because of his involvement with Shae. She made it clear during the trial that she was against him, and he had all that time in the cell to come to terms with it. Tywin taking his wife Tysha (who wasn’t a whore and truly loved him it turns out), ordering his men to rape her in turn while he was forced to watch, all because she was a commoner. That’s a push!

    But there were other motivating factors as well, such as…I don’t know…Tywin sending him to his death for a crime he knew he didn’t commit.

    Plus, it doesn’t matter if Shae was true or not (and I would argue that she did love Tyrion, but had to adapt in order to survive). All that matters is that Tyrion loved Shae, and his father fu$ked her. That’s more than enough to push even the sanest person into a murderous rage.

  442. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    {M} {M} {M} {M}

    Good tidings fair lords,

    PRAISE:
    1. Tyrion and Jamie
    - I enjoyed the happy farewell alteration
    2. Lord of Light
    - pretty badass flanking the wildlings from behind
    - one of the great opening scenes of an episode
    - Stannis’ scruff coming in nice

    AMENDMENTS:
    1. Ayra leaves the bloody gate
    - In my opinion she should never have arrived there. Whether they simply turned around or the Hound cut down a few men (unlikely) is up for interpretation. Eddard was fostered there for one and I feel Arya’s well being would be considered by the Vale’s men at arms.
    2. The children
    - Could have done without the Pirates of the Carribean scene but whatever can’t say it doesn’t happen
    - the children are spooky enough. Would have liked to see an almost alien looking being sitting in the tree that comes down and guides Bran to the three eyed raven. Im sure I will be corrected if I misspeak but I did not literally envision the children as children. To me they had a creepy feeling as if they were a different species that have being living underground for centuries, smaller in stature to humans.
    3. “Some dumb whore”
    - One of my favorite scenes of all time is the look that Tyrion and Tywin exchange in season 3 when Tywin says, “I remember all too well” when Tyrion is seeking reward for his efforts at the Blackwater. After the privy scene all Tysha references are rendered insignificant. Along with Tyrion’s story of Tysha in season 1 I thought they were building to this moment. Jamie would have had to have told Tyrion the truth and I have already said I enjoyed not bringing it up when they said goodbye but I think it could have come up with Tywin especially since Shae was in his bed.
    4. The Targaryen chambers of the Red Keep
    - had a feeling the tunnels would not be highlighted
    - the architecture of the Red Keep is fascinating and before the battle of the Blackwater we get good dialogue between Varys and Tyrion about its construction. Could have been used considering the episode before shows the defenses of the wall.
    - Little finger has been making big moves, its time to show another aspect of the Spider and his little birds

    Mikken’s Mark
    {M} {M} {M} {M}

  443. Filip Hasson
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Written out, I doubt it. Granted people do lose interest if you ignore a character, but Catelyn Stark was in the show just about ever episode for the first three seasons and will be an easily recognized face. Also like you said mid season and finale is way to late to reveal her, so just think of this…

    First episode opening scene before the title theme song similar to tywin melting the swords, its some frey guy being captured by the brother hood and brought before Stoneheart and being killed the last shot before the main title starts will be her face, and then show nothing of the character until Brienne and Pod see her later that season.

    It would be a great hook/attention grabber for the opening of the season.

  444. JS
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:38 am | Permalink

    JTargs,

    I agree my favorite parts were at the Wall too–it’s also where not all of Jon’s storyline from book 3 was covered (LC).

  445. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:39 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    What was his motivation to enter the Tower of The Hand and seek out Tywin, though? And how did he know how to get there? The scene could have been stronger and even more emotional, IMO. It was my only complaint with the episode, well, other than Bloodraven not being a one eyed albino.

    He was planning on killing Tywin anyway, methinks. His motivation? Tywin despised him, sentenced him to die, and is a horrible person that will continue to cause the realm untold misery and suffering. Before he sails away to the free cities, he wants to make his mark and get his revenge. Best way to do that is to kill his father. The show builds Tyrion’s hatred for Tywin over season 3 and 4. It felt like a wholly natural conclusion to me.

  446. Derek Schwarz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    bran defeated multiple stalfos, whilst aided by a kokiri on his journey to enter the great deku tree. Bran is Link. story, over

  447. Rose
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Four years and I’ve yet to REALLY complain about an episode. There have been a few scenes I haven’t loved, a few cuts I’ve questionned, a few changes I’ve disagreed with, but never before have I come out of an episode feeling like I thought D&D were in over the heads.

    I feel like shit, now, actually.

    These people are going to finish the story. That’s almost a certainty at this point. Martin will never get over himself and write a fucking ending (and before the GRRM is not your bitch bullshit starts, I am a professional writer, I am published, I have an agent, I know about writer’s block, I know about commitments, and ultimately, it is a writer’s job to write a fucking book. End of story. I sympathized with him seven years ago. Now I’m over it. Just WRITE.) These people are it. And for the first time, I don’t believe they can do it.

    This episode was a mess. Bloodraven: guy sitting in tree. Terrible CGI skeletons. Big stupid long swordfight with Brienne and Sandor that actually lowered my IQ (Did Brienne think that Arya would go with her after that shit? Really? Come on, you’re a smart lady.) No LS. No Tysha. Shae, who, after all those changes to her character, LITERALLY didn’t get to speak a word to explain herself to Tyrion. And Tyrion smelling like flowers coming out of it.

    I am so upset. Maybe in the morning it’ll hurt less.

  448. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:44 am | Permalink

    “I remember all too well”
    Could have actually occurred while discussing marriage prospects between Tryion and Sansa. Aside from the point though, that face Tryion makes is priceless

  449. Lou Reed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:46 am | Permalink

    For some people at least, it seems that having read the books is a curse. Neither Coldhands, Stoneheart or Tysha is necessary.

    Like Martin says, it is a shame we only have 10 episodes each year, but that is how it is. Were there 13 episode, I bet we’d have seen more Brotherhood. And we would have seen Stoneheart, Coldhands, Blackfish etc..

    But I totally get, why they are pushing this for later. Is there going to be a Riverlands arc, and a Greyjoy arc next season? Depends on if HBO are aiming for 7 or 8 seasons.

  450. zerowolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:47 am | Permalink

    Stop bitching everybody – if you liked the story in the books then go and read them again. This is something different and in my opinion just as good.
    Do you honestly think that HBO would go to the expense of assembling the entire Brotherhood Without Banners for a five minute scene?
    Get over it with the LS obsession and enjoy the show for what it is – wonderful entertainment.
    ASOIAF isn’t a sacred text – it’s just a fantasy novel, albeit a very good one, and it’s time to forget about it from now on. At least the show is moving toward an ending which is more than can be said of GRRM.

  451. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    zerowolf,

    Watch yourself wolfboy,

    this is a website where people can discuss the show. If you think everything is going to be peaches and roses perhaps you should write a book about your fantasy life.

    Mikken’s Mark
    {M}

  452. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:52 am | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer:
    An amazing episode brought down by my own stupid expectations. Being a book reader sucks sometimes.

    No LS was surprising, either she’s cut or they’ve made a mistake. Introducing her next year I fear is too late as it will be spoiled for many or will feel too “Jump the Shark-y”.

    The Major thing I’m pissed about though is Brienne beating the Hound. FUCK THAT. Even though he was already injured, no way, NO FUCKING WAY Brienne beats the Hound in combat. There’s just no way. Rory was awesome though.

    Why not? Hate the idea of a badass woman beating a madass man?

  453. Valyrian Walker
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    First of all if they were showing Stannis’s arrival in the beginning of this episode, they might as well have ended the 9th with his arrival.

    Truly dissapointing episode.

    I just hope D&D make the episode even more shorter next season. Except for Bran’s & Arya’s scenes everything else felt left wanting for more.

    HBO: Let’s end it with Dany again this season.
    D&D: There’s nothing good in her story. We could end it with Stoneheart.
    HBO: Forget Stoneheart, lets just let the vieweres keep on arguing whether she’l turn up next season or not.
    D&D: It may be too late by season 5
    HBO: who cares, as long as the show is popular

  454. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Gotta say Im with Sir Scryer, theres no way. The biter got Sandor. He never brushed his teeth a day in his life and the Hound’s neck got infected

  455. Lexyvil
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Great episode all around!
    The only bummer is the absence of LS, but I don’t mind at all since that will be more source material to tell in the fifth Season.

  456. Franksinatra
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:11 am | Permalink

    you forgot about the Viper Mountain episode, they all been sick!!! X)

    The Bastard,

  457. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:11 am | Permalink

    I didn’t have a problem with the Brienne-Hound fight. The Hound wasn’t 100% and Brienne had a Valyrian steel sword. They gave The Hound more respect as a fighter than they did for Jaime. I’m still disappointed they never did Jaime justice as a fighter.

  458. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    JamesL:
    Hopefully the writers will confirm or deny whether or not Lady Stoneheart is going to show up in the show after tonights episode so we don’t have to have this debate all next season.

    This, yes.
    I will be pissed if they dodge the question again.

  459. KG
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    And how do you KNOW he would win? You don’t. You can’t.

    … and your fanfic doesn’t count.

    ArgonathofBraavos: hought D&D were in over the heads.
    I feel like shit, no

  460. Vyrion
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    I was sad about Tyrion / Tysha because was really looking forward to that paying off… it sucks. Apart from that a great finale.

  461. kdenn1020
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:24 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe how many people are freaking out over this episode. Get over it god dammit. Sure some significant lines or moments we hold dear from the books were cut. OH WELL. GTFOver it.

    Hound-Brienne fight? Awesome. I bet a handful of you book readers would have loved to see that duel mater like in the books.

    Jojen? Who really thinks he’s going to survive in the books? Kid is barely alive @ the end of DWD. The stunning impact of him being killed floored me. I love being surprised. Somehow they surprise me even if I’ve read the books and know what’s coming.

    You got the giants. You got the mammoths. You got Stannis’s army and shit. This is TELEVISION and CGI is expensive. So what if the skeletal-wights weren’t perfect. That fight sequence was awesome and I loved Leaf’s introduction.

    There was no direct reference to Tysha since Season 1. Did you really expect her to make it in?

    You guys complaining are sad. One week you heap praise for this and that. Next you freak out and absolve yourself of any association with the show from here on out. Be fortunate OUR series is being ADAPTED to the optimum entertainment medium on the best outlet possible in that medium.

    Go read the books again and stop fucking crying. God damn.

  462. Harry
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:29 am | Permalink

    Was totally OK with the episode. But fireballs? Come on…

    But I am guess LS will appear next season. My theory is we won’t see her getting brought back ot life by Beric. I image it like: Brienne and Pod will be captured by the BWB and a certain someone will reveal herself under a hood.

  463. House Nieder
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:30 am | Permalink

    Raga Dal,

    I always preferred the Oberyn poisoning him to the Varys theory.

  464. barak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:31 am | Permalink

    kdenn1020: Go read the books again and stop fucking crying. God damn.

    Yeah, seriously.

    And all the whining about LS. Yes, it would’ve been a great surprise, THEN WHAT. Hell, what’s the point of the entire character? She just appears, everyone goes “WHOA, WHAT!!” and then she does nothing of interest for two more seasons, except for that part with Brienne that I’m not sure how many people care about.

  465. The Unburnt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:32 am | Permalink

    kdenn1020:
    I can’t believe how many people are freaking out over this episode. Get over it god dammit. Sure some significant lines or moments we hold dear from the books were cut. OH WELL. GTFOver it.

    Hound-Brienne fight? Awesome. I bet a handful of you book readers would have loved to see that duel mater like in the books.

    Jojen? Who really thinks he’s going to survive in the books? Kid is barely alive @ the end of DWD. The stunning impact of him being killed floored me. I love being surprised. Somehow they surprise me even if I’ve read the books and know what’s coming.

    You got the giants. You got the mammoths. You got Stannis’s army and shit. This is TELEVISION and CGI is expensive. So what if the skeletal-wights weren’t perfect. That fight sequence was awesome and I loved Leaf’s introduction.

    There was no direct reference to Tysha since Season 1. Did you really expect her to make it in?

    You guys complaining are sad. One week you heap praise for this and that. Next you freak out and absolve yourself of any association with the show from here on out. Be fortunate OUR series is being ADAPTED to the optimum entertainment medium on the best outlet possible in that medium.

    Go read the books again and stop fucking crying. God damn.

    Jeez….whatever I can do to piss off rude people, I guess…rofl.

  466. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    kdenn1020,

    Yeah I expected her to make it in considering thats the final straw when Tryion lets crossbow go

  467. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:35 am | Permalink

    BranSnow:
    Does anyone else feel the CotF shooting fireballs was extremely cheap?

    Yes. Very cheap. Was it in the book, I don’t remember?

  468. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    kdenn1020,

    that being said am I in tears like you suggested? Yes because I loved Tywin, reminds me of my own father.
    Turn down kdenn youre getting too hyped

  469. Carolina
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:43 am | Permalink

    Loved every moment of this episode…….great performances all round. Rory McCann was awesome, he knocked it out of the park! Hope to see more of him in the future, fighting for the faith?

  470. KG
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:44 am | Permalink

    Eh magic is magic. It was a good way to show viewers that all bets are off and MAGIC IS BACK.

    jentario: Yes. Very cheap. Was it in the book, I don’t remember?

  471. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:46 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I don’t remember fireballs I want to say bran doesnt see the children until he enters the cave. I wasn’t feeling it but i gotta be careful so the show purists dont get pissed at me

    Mikken’s Mark
    {M}

  472. Bittersteel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    Carolina,

    Clegane bowl is definitely going to happen. Sandor= Valanqor and he is going to champion the fate and kill Ser Robo Mountain and Cersei.

  473. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    About time Stannis got a beard, he looks much better with it. I haven’t read all the comments but I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone complain that they skipped filming the scene where Drogon kills the farmers daughter. Seems like wasted potential for a shocking yet great scene. Overall I didn’t think the episode was that great. Definitely not the shows best. I really did not like the directing style for this episode, way too much jerky camera work. Alex Graves also directed Kissed by Fire which is one of my favorite episodes so I’m not sure why the directing was so bad for this episode. After the first 7 episodes this season I was for sure this would be the best season yet but I’ve found the finale 3 episodes underwhelming, especially episodes 8 and 10. Episode 9 was good but lacked proper build up. Now I’m not sure where I would rank this season. It was better than season 2 but about equal with season 3. I’m not sure this show will ever top season 1.

  474. kdenn1020
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark,

    Mikken’s Mark,

    The final straw is Tywin not biding his tongue and saying “whore” again after Tyrion warns him. Not Tysha.

    Skim through the comments on this page. I’ve read most. And I’ve gotten texts from sullied friends renouncing any further interest in the show.

    Are the omissions really going to change your life? Again if it’s that big a deal, go re-read the books.

  475. Starling
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:52 am | Permalink

    Enough has been said about LS, so I won’t belabor it. I feel like we’ll see her when the time is right, and when the BWB is back in our collective consciousness.

    I would rather pay tribute to some awesome and rich performances in an episode full of them. Stand-outs:

    Maisie: EVERY MOMENT. I am so jealous of this girl’s natural talent. Loved her calculating coldness with Sandor, as well as her curiosity about Brienne. I wish Arya and Brienne could just ride off into the sunset being badass women together, but this is the wrong show for that. But my heart wants it. So bad.

    Rory: So good, and one of the most vastly underappreciated players on this show. I loved seeing him own up to protecting and taking care of Arya, which made it all the more terrible as he cried for her to kill him as she walked away.

    Peter and Charles Dance: Great, as always. I’m so sorry I’m not going to see these two match wits any more.

    Emilia: I was crying right along with her as she chained her dragons. She does a lot of declaiming and posturing as Dany (and as I believe Dany would do), but it’s in these quieter moments when she really shines as an actress — the rare moments when Dany gets to shed her persona and just be herself.

    And a HUGE tip of the hat to Ellie Kendrick, who fought like a boss and then completely broke my heart with one look of anguish. The moment she slit Jojen’s throat was so powerful, and flooded that scene with humanity to help counter all the magic and CGI. I’m not Bran, but I’m a little bit more in love with Meera after today.

    Can’t believe this season is over. Hope we get some casting dirt to occupy our minds really soon!

  476. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:56 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Cersei/Qyburn scenes are my favorite in AFFC. Can’t wait for those next season.

  477. rorschach-
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    Thousand eyes and one.

  478. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    What is the exact line from him about this?

  479. Fabian Schneider
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:01 am | Permalink

    I know I might be stoned to death, but I must be one of the very few people who actually hope that they’ve dropped the LS plot. I always found that one very annoying as it diminished the threat of “death” in the setting, especially considering there’s another even more powerful Red Priest(ess) about.

  480. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:04 am | Permalink

    kdenn1020,

    I’ve just been looking at the bottom, I hear you though. I like commenting on the differences, they don’t kill me. And you know those renouncers say that now but when season 5 comes out will they really hold out? Maybe, you know, I dont.

    The whore is Tysha though. In the grander scheme you are right it is not a big deal. A lifetime of factors lead Tryion to pull the trigger.

  481. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:06 am | Permalink

    RamBam,

    Also, a general complaint about fight scenes all along this season! Please stop cutting the scenes to half a second frames! It makes our eyes bleed and also we cant see anything! you can just say that they are fighting but thats it! You have no clue WTF is going on!

    The directing was mostly crap the entire episode not just the fights.
    I did not like the way the episode was filmed at all especially the shaky cam stuff. That shaky cam crap does not belong in Game of Thrones and it was jarring because they never used that style before.

  482. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:07 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I think in one of the EW articles it’s mentioned that Leaf gets a torch and lights them on fire. So fire but no fireballs (which is a much better weapon).

  483. MaesterDjidja
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    SHOW TIMELINE READING TIME!!!!

    CATELYN

    The pain was gone. For a time all she knew was pain, but then it was gone. Was it all just a dream? For a time there was nothing to feel, except cold. Cold and hatred. It burned through her, engulfing her, and consuming her whole.

    The Lannisters send their regards. She had no recollection of the meaning of the phrase, or anything else for that matter, but it was stuck in her mind and made her feel helpless and angry. But words are wind. She opened her eyes. It was dark all around and she couldn’t move, a warm stinging feeling lingered in her throat.

    With all her might she pushed upwards and what turns out to be snow opened up in front of her and she went out into the light.

    First thing she noticed was the corpses. The whole countryside was filled with corpses laying motionless in the snow. In the distance she saw a ruin of a great city overlooking a frozen lake and by a wall lay what appeared to be a dead dragon.

    “What the h…”

    THE END

  484. manashima
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:14 am | Permalink

    People think Jojenpaste is debunked? Watch the show.

    In the books, in order to unlock Brans Weirwood powers he eats bloody porridge with Jojens blood in it(blood sacrifice is common for the old gods religion).

    In the show, Bran just touches the trees and gets visions, he doesnt need the paste from Jojen, they essentially cut this part out, so they could effective change how Jojen dies(likely cause they cut Coldhands and it was a butterfly effect.

    No coldhands means Brans needs a new way to get to the tree so new powers>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new powers means latent powers so no more Jojen paste to unlock them>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so now they can get rid of Jojen in a different way.

  485. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Watched it a second time sans expectations and without fear that the clock was running out, and it was phenomenal. This is not my favorite GOT episode ever (mostly because I’m not a huge fan of Graves’ directorial style – much prefer MacLaren and Sakharov), but it’s definitely in my top 10.

  486. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:18 am | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider:
    I know I might be stoned to death, but I must be one of the very few people who actually hope that they’ve dropped the LS plot. I always found that one very annoying as it diminished the threat of “death” in the setting, especially considering there’s another even more powerful Red Priest(ess) about.

    With you lord Fabian. More so cus I wanted Thoros to find Robb instead. Aside from the “diminished threat of death” I still think onscreen the frey chapter would be solid for the opening of season 5. The beginning and endings of episodes are key for me, I love when they fill them with shock value material.

  487. Bittersteel
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    manashima,

    Sorry but it never states in the books he is eating Jojen blood. In the text it says he is eating weirwood sap or something and weirwoods can bleed. I think weirwood sap is more reasonable since he is using the trees to see stuff.

  488. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider: Season 4 Finale – The Children – Recap

    I’m with you. IMO, resurrection should only be reserved for god-like entities, such as Gandalf in LOTR.

  489. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:25 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    But do you remember Thoros of Myr crossing the bridge with the burning sword though???

  490. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Best finale ever! I’m actually dreading when the time to cast our votes for best episode of the season will come. There are so many strong contenders it’s like trying decide which bite of the chocolate bar tasted the nicest. I predict a very close poll indeed.

    Though with that being said, I was dissapointed that the Tyrells were no where to be seen (AGAIN!) despite being brought up enough during Cersei’s excellent scene with Tywin. Same goes for Ellaria and Alliser; it would be at least good to acknowledge them as well. Also, WTF is up with Ciaran’s accent? Last year it was pure North, now it’s become like Littlefinger’s.

    But Riders of Rohan (whoops, Dragonstone), Dany’s scene with the teacher and the goatherd & the rest of the Wall & beyond material was superb. Brienne vs. Sandor was bloody-hands-down the best swordfight they’ve ever done and the decision to make Varys go with Tyrion is very intriguing, not to mention awesome.

  491. Harry
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:45 am | Permalink

    Rygar: Did Cersei just rape Jaime?

    :) yeah. Let’s all get nuts about it…

  492. KG
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    This fan-made “canon” can be so damn annoying. There is no confirmation anywhere that it’s blood.

    manashima:
    People think Jojenpaste is debunked? Watch the show.

    In the books, in order to unlock Brans Weirwood powers he eats bloody porridge with Jojens blood in it(blood sacrifice is common for the old gods religion).

    In the show, Bran just touches the trees and gets visions, he doesnt need the paste from Jojen, they essentially cut this part out, so they could effective change how Jojen dies(likely cause they cut Coldhands and it was a butterfly effect.

    No coldhands means Brans needs a new way to get to the tree so new powers>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new powers means latent powers so no more Jojen paste to unlock them>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so now they can get rid of Jojen in a different way.

  493. barak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider: I know I might be stoned to death, but I must be one of the very few people who actually hope that they’ve dropped the LS plot. I always found that one very annoying as it diminished the threat of “death” in the setting, especially considering there’s another even more powerful Red Priest(ess) about.

    I agree so much. LS is good for cheap shock value, but pointless and grating otherwise.

  494. Stark Raving Mad
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:20 am | Permalink

    Vieira151:
    JTargs,

    Well, based on where Brienne and Pod ended up I can see them having Stoneheart as the intro scene to episode 1 next season.


    My thoughts exactly. When they didn’t have Stoneheart in this year’s intro I thought the finale. But she’d work for next year’s intro just as well. I see no need to wait until the finale to have it simply because it was at the end of a book. I don’t like her, but I don’t see much need for the Brotherhood if she doesn’t show up. Book readers will discover how important she is to the story by her presence in the show.

  495. Adam Austin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    O MY FUCKING GOD!!!!

    What a Fan-Tastic episode!!!

    Ok… So no LS I felt sure the last scene was going to be the ratty-looking Frey Screaming “But I brought you your Ransom” only for a hooded figure to emerge and say “What a pity I’ve come for Revenge, Frey” and then the revel. Damn!!! :o) lol

    But to make up for that, we got a full ending thus far for Bran and saw the 3-Eyed Crow. (not-quite what I envisaged from the book but maybe the show version needs the actor to move around) Poor Jojen :o( … wasn’t expecting that but this is GOT and I think Martin is going to let him go too.

    And for one of the 1st times Ever… I was actually terrific that one of my two favourites from the book would be dead by the outcome.

    Now I TRULY know how unsullied feel!!!

    When Brienne recognized Arya, I thought “O Shit… either Brienne or the Hound dies… and when Brienne was on the ground and the Hound was beating her… I felt sure she was going to die and … well words can’t describe my anguish!!! LOL

    Take you D&D and All involved in the TV show… that was Epic and some truly Frighening outcomes for a book-reader. Show is in great hands and I look forward to Season 5 to be shook-up again! lol

    We’re still on track and characters are where they are meant to be. Varys seems to be in a much more appealing scenario.
    And we have the promise of Dorne

    Just one niggle…

    Please bring some prophecies next season… ?

    I think the time is coming for the Tourney of Harrenhall revelations ;o)

  496. Winter
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Terrific finale!! I loved that two pivotal characters are heading east, fed up with the constand shit they’ve witnessed in Westeros. Definitely felt like defining moments for both.

    Brienne vs. Hound was probably the best one on one fight I’ve seen on the show. It felt earthier and dirtier, kudos to both Gwen and Rory for that.

    Bran’s scene was epic, and imo, I didn’t find any of the CGI tacky. The introduction to the COTF is something I’ve been anticipating forever. Next season we can expect some flashbacks, and revelations! Sad to see Jojen go, but we all saw it coming.

    I understand Sansa and LF weren’t needed, but I missed them. It has been the highlight of my the season, very much looking forward to Season 5.

    All in all, Season 4 has been my favourite. I feel sad for the constant complainers, who live in a perpetual fear that certain scenes will be omitted or not enacted via the books’ route. They are two separate entities that will arrive at the same overall destination. Appreciate the masterpiece that take months and months to create. Otherwise just wait until about 2020 when TWOW will be released! P

  497. Winter
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    Also have to mention that closing scene between Arya and the Hound. Wow. It was sublime!

    Season 4 has been the year of Charles Dance, Sophie Turner and of course Pedro Pascal.

    The wait for Season 5 is going to be painful, at least we can anticipate some casting announcements soon.

    Just a request to D&D – please more Vary/Conleth Hill come Season 5. Well done to all writers, actors, directors, and crew for a record-breaking, brilliant season.

  498. WestEssos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    Although I was disappointed not seeing Lady Stoneheart, I can see why they didn’t put her in the season finale. Catelyns death is still sort of recent and it had such an impact on everyone, bringing her back now would lessen the impact and tragedy of her death.

    I hope they put her in the first episode of Season 5 – maybe at the beginning as a prologue before the opening title (like they did with Two Swords) or right at the end of the episode. It would seem right; they could show the Brotherhood without Banners and Catelyn being killed in the “Previously on Game of Thrones” recap clip and it would stay fresh in the audiences mind.

    However, if anyone has been watching 24: Live Another Day – Michelle Fairley plays Margot, a terrorist who is out for revenge after the death of her husband (where have we seen that before haha), and she reminds me of a modern day Lady Stoneheart – or Stoneheart 2.0 – crazy as her character is; she does a fantastic job. So in a away there is a Stoneheart on television.

    Let’s wait if Lady Stoneheart will appear next year…

  499. Solderai
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    … why, just why …
    I’m so disappointed with the episode
    am i the only one who watched all the credits waiting for Stoneheart to appear? .. I can’t talk :(
    I hope a second watching bring me some understanding for this new changes

  500. Carolina
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Bittersteel,

    Oh God, I hope so…That would be so awesome!!!!

  501. Miguel Moreira
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:31 am | Permalink

    WIC, can you please contact D&D and ask them if they have any idea how badly fans want Lady Stoneheart on the show????????????

  502. Dame of Mercia
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    There was a comment on the Unsullied thread yesterday that no reference should be made to books. I mentioned politely that I understood the need for rules but that surely the danger of inclusion of reference to source material depended on whether it included “spoilers”. I know the story as far as the end of “A Storm of Swords”. My comment was deleted – I did not include any spoilers and was careful not to use the word “book”; I did mention “source material” and “novels” but not their content. I am very surprised I did not get the courtesy of a reply. I’ve never been a Whinger and Whiner on the Wall but I am surprised by the rudeness of the moderators of the site.

  503. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    The Bastard: You think they didn’t cover it because they ran out of time?You think they put together an entire season and then just cut out something from one of the last scenes because they ran out of time?Come on.

    They made the choice not to put it in.And for good reason.It would have confused the fans too much.Same reason they changed “Only Cat” a few episodes before.

    The motivation for Tyrion killing his father was still basically the same.And the scene was just as good because of it.

    Agreed. People need to chill. It’s a tv show, not a book. How can people possibly think that Tysha would be something tv watchers would even remember?

  504. Eos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    I LOVED it!! What a great finale! Sure, the bone zombies were a bit cheesy as were the fireballs, there should’ve probably been more wildlings to fight Stannis … but I’m still amazed.

    I thought the Three eyed raven scene was sufficiently eerie and the Children seemed quite cool. Wish there was more of them, but that’s not a biggie. Jojen’s death was a bit of a surprise – I didn’t consider him almost as good as dead in the books – but can’t say I’m too shocked.

    I LOVED the Arya and Brienne meeting. Arya was almosh childishly fascinated by a notion of a female warrior and Brienne seemed quite frustrated with herself for not being a bit more smooth. The fight was great and when she bit the Hound’s ear of … I couldn’t help but think of this and laugh my ass off. But I thought it was a cool fighting scene, but I did feel the frustration when two characters I love clashed. I just wanted them to become friends, have a beer and play WoW together. Ah well.
    Arya’s apathy regarding the Hound’s death was very spot-on. I really enjoy this new Arya who’s past the teenage angsty stubborness and just becoming a very motivated, determined individual. Her cold stare was really amazing. And I couldn’t help but feeling excited with her finally leaving Westeros.

    I’m not too sure what I think of Cersei’s powerplay. My impression from the books was that Tywin was the only thing she feared and that essentially being the only thing holding her back from getting as crazy as she does after his death. I believe now this impact is somewhat lessened. But it was nice to see Tywin struggling with Cersei’s revelations and I did feel kinda happy for Cersei and Jaime – after decades of hiding it must feel enormously liberating to be able to just confront Tywin about it.

    I really felt for Mance. His disappointment after Jon’s very unsubtle glance towards the knife just pained me. Great dialogue. Stannis’ arrival was equally epic although I really do wish it was much grander in scale. We’ve heard the talk about tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) wildlings and yet in this episode it merely looks as if Stannis bumped into a single wildling camp of no more than some hundred men. But seeing Jon and Davos meet was really nice and when I feared Jon would get all cheesy with Ned’s mentioning, he suggested the burning of the dead from some very pragmatic, eerie reasons. Very well executed. I must say that even though I’ve never been Kit’s fan, I’m really impressed with his work this season. The funerals were very painful to watch and seeing Jon’s tears just … just … I can’t even.

    Well, this was a very emotional episode for me – maybe the high point of my misty eyes was when the peasant brought in his daughter’s body before Dany. It was a blow when reading the books but seeing his grief overwhelmed me. I’m not sure if I wouldn’t call this my favorite scene of GoT – if not ever, than surely this season. Sooo moving :( Great irony for the Breaker of chains to be seen putting them on her children’s necks – and her confusion with the former slave’s wishes.

    And finally, Tyrion’s prolonged escape. I didn’t mind Tysha’s omission at all. Like others have said, it’s not necessary for the scene to work; Tyrion has enough reasons as it is. I quite like him and Jaime parting in good terms. I don’t necessarily think her inclusion would slow the episode or confuse TV viewers, but I think it worked just as well without her. The situation Tyrion was faced with was mind-blowing enough without bringing her up. His confrontation with Shae was great. If I ever looked forward to seeing his revenge upon her, well, it didn’t feel at all victorious or anything, I just kinda felt his desperation when killing the woman he loved, when facing the fact he did indeed become a murderer. I just wish they left out that very bizarre and unfitting “Sorry.”
    Tywin’s death scene didn’t feel as strong – but I am glad they left “You shot me!” in. And I absolutely loved Varys’ face when sitting among the ship’s cargo :D

    Such a great episode. Is it just me or does this show indeed get better every season? And seeing how emotional the whole episode was, I was – in the end – glad they decided to leave Stoneheart out. Am I worried they’ll omit her all the way? Yes. But this certainly wasn’t the place to introduce her.

  505. arya_fan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Anguissette1979:
    jentario,

    Rory McCann fucking KILLED IT. I guess that means he still has a role to play later on. Gravedigger vs. Robert Strong or we riot!

    Totally agree! :)

    I understand all the complains about the missing LS but, really, the episode was very good and I still believe they’are gonna show LS and the Brotherwood at the beginning of season 5.

  506. You lie Lena! Unless next season......
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Harry,

    Did Brienne just rape The Hound?

    How will they keep Fairley hidden if she has many scenes next year. Comic-Con will let us know. D&D will say SH is cut or if she isn’t they won’t answer any questions about her.

  507. Kate
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:45 am | Permalink

    I’m really disappointed with the finale. The source material had a lot of potential, and I feel that they have missed the opportunity to make something really great.

    I’m specially disappointed with Shae and Tywin’s death. I found them really flat.

  508. NedsHead
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    Even when Stannis saves the day he’s a jerk.
    I also honestly forgot about LS until I read the recap…episode so good I forget major plot points!
    Oh, and Maisie Williams and Rory McCann completely owned their final scene together. Such a great finale!

  509. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    You lie Lena! Unless next season……,

    Twitter people should bombard Bryan Cogman for a definitive answer

  510. Oliver Hardy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    So there is no Lady Stoneheart. OK, but the what is the point of character Brienne of Tarth? Who`s gone send her to kill Jamie Lannister? Or maybe in HBO version Brienne will marry Jamie Lannister and they will live happy ever after. Welcome to Disney version of GOT.

  511. WestEssos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Although I was disappointed not seeing Lady Stoneheart in the Season Finale, I can see why she wasn’t in this episode. Catelyn’s death still seems quite recent and it had an impact on everyone and resurrecting her in Season 4 would lessen in the impact of her death.

    I hope Lady Stoneheart will be in Season 5. The first episode of Season 5 seems like a goof place to introduce her – either at the beginning of the episode as a prologue (like they did with Two Swords this season) or at the end of the episode (so people can look forward to the next episode and rest of the season etc). Showing Stoneheart in the first episode of Season 5 would allow them to show the Brotherhood Without Banners and Catelyn’s death in the “Previously on Game of Thrones” recap clip – it would stay fresh in everyones mind.

    Although Stoneheart wasn’t in this Season, if any has been watching 24: Live Another Day will know that Michelle Fairley plays Margot, a terrorist who is after revenge for the death of her husband (where have we seen that before haha) – she reminds me of a modern day Stoneheart – or Stoneheart 2.0. As crazy as she is, Michelle does a brilliant job playing her and does have that Stoneheart vibe. So in a way, there is a Stoneheart on TV this year

    We will have to wait until next year…

    Coldhands may appear later on in the series – maybe he has a bigger part to play in the last 2 books and they will introduce him later. I hope the same for Strong Belwas… Edmure was in the first 2 books and wasn’t introduced in the show until the 3rd Season

    We’ll just have to wait and find out….

  512. Koi No Yokan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    You know, I love the idea that Lena Headey just randomly made a heart of stones for a bit of fun one day; only for her to be completely oblivious of its implications within the GoT fandom!

    I’d love for LSH to be the cold open next season. They wouldn’t even have to reveal who it actually is… just the BWB hanging Freys with a hooded figure. But, we’ll see I suppose. A bit disappointed she wasn’t the climax to the finale (I mean seriously, how much better does it get than that?) but for whatever reason they scrapped. It’s my own fault for setting those expectations, though – looking forward to going back and enjoying the episode rather than tentatively waiting for the bombshell.

    The Hound versus Brienne was the highlight of the episode for me. Totally wasn’t expecting it, and I was nervous the entire fight because I didn’t want either of them to die. The choreography was great. Was so scared that they actually were going to have The Hound die, and leave one of my favourite theories rotting in a gutter… but thank the gods!

    Overall, a really good finale (possibly the best one since “Fire and Blood”). There’s only a handful of nitpicking I could do (Jojen’s campy death being chief among them), but I’d rather not. I think Season 4 has now knocked Season 1 off as my favourite so far. There were a few hiccups here and there, but when they were on-point they were on-fucking-point! Another painfully long wait for the next season to air!

  513. theamir
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    I love how GOT fansheep say its whining whenever someone raises a complaint or dislike about a change or something important being left out.

    I actually am on the fence about even continuing with the show because I don’t like the many, many needless changes they’ve made. I have to wonder how GRRM really feels about it and how much input he still has in the production – he says he hates fan fiction and that’s pretty much what this series has become. Badly written fan fiction.

  514. wizardeyes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    I’ve come around to them not doing the Tysha thing. In the books Tyrion’s real relationship was with Tysha and his relationship with Shae turned out to be one-sided. In the show it wasn’t one-sided – they were in love. Shae was the character we knew and the character Tyrion cared about – to suddenly bring up Tysha would discredit the work the show has done with Shae and alot of Unsullied would have thought “who the fuck is Tysha?”

    My main disappointment was with Bloodraven and the children of the forest. They didn’t look nearly as cool as I imagined. Bloodraven just looked like an old man stood in a tree. I imagined the roots would be growing through him and he has kind of decomposed into the tree.

    Like this basically –

    http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–IeNtNvHF–/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/193zrp6sdc2bfjpg.jpg

    The Tyrion stuff was brilliant – loved his goodbye to Jaime. Dinklage played the murders in a very subtle way – almost detached which worked really well.

    I’m really going to miss Charles Dance next season – hope you guys have a curtain call planned!

    The Stannis arrival was brilliant – although there was no chanting, Stannis & Davos’ boss walk through the smoke made up for it. Love how his men attacked from both sides – shows Stannis’ military prowess. Looking forward to lots more Jon and Stannis next season – one of my favourite character pairings.

    I really like how they ended with Arya sailing away. It was kind of sad but hopeful at the same time. So much better than the Dany crowd-surfing debacle from last year.

    Season 4 has definitely been the best season so far – season 5 has alot to live up to.

  515. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    strong finale, probably the strongest episode of the season for me, even if there might have been a couple of disappointments (No Stoneheart!)
    My two favourite moments were at the beginning and the end. Stannis attacking the wildling camp was done very well, they managed to convey the sense of confusion which you get in the books pretty well, and it went on for just the right amount of time. The CGI was great too, most cinematic battle we have seen yet! Also loved the following exchange between Stannis and Jon, and as OP said, I anticipate whats to come between next season eagerly.
    Obviously the other great bit was with Tyrion’s killing spree, especially the scene between tyrion and tywin, great acting from peter dinklage especially. The part about the shit was missed out, but oh well. Also enjoyed the scene with Varys smuggling tyrion out that followed.
    I liked the Bran stuff, as has been said Jojen is going to die pretty soon in the books so at this moment i’m okay with his premature death (wait until tWoW to pass full judgement) good to see the Children of the Forest, and even better to see bloodraven, the cgi and sets and stuff used in this part of the episode were top notch, hope we get to see a bit more of similar standard stuff in future seasons. Also enjoyed the Danaerys stuff, they did well at conveying the right levels of emotion about it. Some changes in the Brienne/Arya storylines, but I’m not too bothered by it and we got to see Brienne and the Hound facing off, but tbh my favourite part of it had to be the scene between Arya and the Hound after (great acting from both Maisie and Rory McCann) and then the ‘valar morghulis’ moment after. Also was interesting to see Cersei confront Tywin and tell him the truth, bit of a deviation from the books, but its intriguing to see a bit more of how Tywin thinks about the twincest, which we dont get much of in the books.
    There were a couple of disappointments, obviously stoneheart was the major one though, but i remain confident we will get her next season, or whenever we reach the point in brienne storyline we are up to now in the books, as they would need to do some major alterations from the books to get to where she is now without stoneheart. I still think now would have been the ideal time to show her though. Also, I’m not a massive fan of tyrion’s whole quest to find Tysha thing, but I liked the revelation in the books as it severs his last connection with Jaime, and puts him in an even worse pyschological state. Plus we will be missing the classic ‘where do whores go?’ moments.
    All in all strongest finale of all four seasons so far, even if season four was probably not quite as good as S3 (about level with S1 for second place imo) still there are some things to look forward too next season even if from here on out the adaptation of the books is probably gonna be an even harder job for the showrunners.

  516. Jasonrp
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Overall, I liked it. The change in Jamie and Tyrion’s scene fit better for me than the way it went down in the books. It always seemed unrealistic that someone as smart as Tyrion would confess to a murder he didn’t commit just because he was angry. I’m not a huge Stoneheart fan but I think that saving her for next year is a good idea. Pacing seems to be a problem with this show and S.H would’ve made an already busy episode even more crowded. I’d say save her entrance for the beginning of 5-01. Make it like the wight scene in the very first episode and that would be a shocker (for the unsullied fans)

  517. Carne
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    I liked the episode, although the last scene with Arya felt very anti-climatic. All in all I enjoyed episode 8 and 9 more than this finale.

    They cast a second CotF, so I wonder what happened to her scene(s)?

  518. Tom W
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    It occur to anyone else that we made it to the end of season 4, and Baloney Greyjoy is still not dead? I wonder if anyone will remember the leeches by the time he meets his end? Also, won’t Gendry’s arms be tired from rowing for almost two years?

  519. Aaron
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Omg, I cried when Dany locked up her dragons. Wow. I don’t get emotional easily over fiction but that was some really sad stuff…

  520. The Ghost of Nymeria, of House Shaggydog, Breaker of Summer and Lady of the Grey Wind
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    I’m calling it now: Lady Stoneheart is not happening in the show. Ever. It just isn’t. There were consistent references to Cat all season long and they STILL did not bring it in. This was the perfect opportunity to do it and they purposefully chose not to. We also have no idea what Brienne’s gonna do next season but I’m predicting a fairly significant shift. What is she gonna do, spend all of next season looking for Arya instead of Sansa? That’s gonna get boring really quickly.

    Funnily enough, the storylines I was the least invested in going in(Arya, Bran & Dany) turned out to be the finale’s highlight for me. Emilia, Maisie, Rory & Thomas absolutely KILLLLED it :D Wonder why they killed off Jojen, though?

    Very disappointed in Tyrion’s story :( I can’t help but feel they robbed Dinklage by cutting out Tysha. The rage, the grief, the shock, it would have been amazing to see. And are we just writing Shae off as a traitorous whore now? What was with all the lovey-dovey scenes? If this was her angle, why did she even bother coming back for him after Blackwater? I presume Varys gets off the ship and is only there so people think he left. He has a very prominent place in KL in future seasons.

    All in all, it was an OK finale. Not remotely as fantastic as I though it would or could be. But fine. Certainly better than the season 3 finale.

  521. Tom W
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Only real complaint is that I wish they had taken the money they spent on CGI skeletons and used it for better costume/makeup for the three eyed crow (or at least using a more gaunt looking actor with an eyepatch). I feel like this was where Bran’s story line starts to pick up in the book due to the mysteryious nature of everything that occurs under the weir wood tree, and starting with an old man sitting in some roots doesn’t have quite the same impact IMO.

  522. Jill Abbyalice
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    In China, the Internet is difficult over the wall, and I hope this drama, and more advanced culture in Europe to convey, more positive energy.

  523. West
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    Aaron,

    Me too. This was so heartbreaking. I cried with Dany.

  524. drew
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    The Tysha omission left me feeling cold. It was the ONLY reason Tyrion paid Tywin a visit before he lifted the capital. That was the ONE scene I was waiting to see, and it flopped big time. I love the episode, every change, but that one. I’m no purist, but why even bother mentioning tysha in series 1 and 3 if your not gonna even bother with the pay off.

    Sometimes I truly doubt D&D’s decisions, if only Cogman was the main writer

  525. The Ghost of Nymeria, of House Shaggydog, Breaker of Summer & Lady of the Grey Wind
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    What’s with the Dumbledore-esque 3 Eyed Crow?

  526. freoduwebbe
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Dame of Mercia: There was a comment on the Unsullied thread yesterday that no reference should be made to books. I mentioned politely that I understood the need for rules but that surely the danger of inclusion of reference to source material depended on whether it included “spoilers”.

    Give the mods a break – no books means NO BOOKS… why didn’t you put that comment on THIS thread.

    Unsullied don’t want to hear about the books if you call them books, source material or GRMM’s dream. Just LEAVE THEM ALONE.. ok, read them and giggle, but don’t put your superior knowledge out for them… if this season hasn’t told you that there have had to be cuts and changes, nothing will.

    it is far easier for everyone when the mods make a hard line than to be wishy washy about it. besides the unsullied – whose thread it is – just want you to go away.

  527. Delta1212
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    theamir,

    So… Better an ASoIaF fansheep than a GoT fansheep?

  528. Genevosey
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Andrew,

    amen

  529. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Because he felt guilty about it and wanted to get the secret off his chest. There’s nothing hamfisted about it, it’s natural and in keeping with the nature of Jaime’s evolution. Of course, he had no idea what happened to Tysha, that she was gang-raped in front of Tyrion, and therein lies the tragedy of that scene.

    The fact that it leaves all three Lannister siblings turned against one another is another great little family tragedy which parallels the scattering of the Starks.

  530. 0KEN0
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    It’s equal parts hilarious and pathetic how petty, hyperbolic, and unrealistic some of the “fans” around here are.

    I watched the finale with 8 people. Sullied and Unsullied alike all agreed this was one of GoT’s very best hours. The fact that people are missing all the fantastic parts here because of their obsession over the omission of an over-rated character, or a few changes is so sad.

    The people who are talking about quitting the show; to them I say see you! These comments sections will be a lot nicer when it isn’t filled with so much bitching. And you wont be missed. This show will do fine without the minority of purists who can’t appreciate the show. Finally, given that D&D know the ending, the show will likely land more or less in the same place as the books… so have fun avoiding spoilers for the next 10-15+ years while you wait for George to finish the books.

    Anyway, it was a fantastic episode. I’m not a blind show fan. There are definitely small things I didn’t like here and here, but overall that was just a great piece of television. Fantastic performances, great VFX and music, some amazing fight scenes, and some big book moments being (at least mostly) represented extremely well on screen!

    Overall the season 4 didn’t quite live up to the brilliance of the end of Storm of Swords, but it was still great stuff! When does season 5 start?!

  531. Dame of Mercia
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    freoduwebbe: Give the mods a break – no books means NO BOOKS… why didn’t you put that comment on THIS thread.

    Unsullied don’t want to hear about the books if you call them books, source material or GRMM’s dream. Just LEAVE THEM ALONE.. ok, read them and giggle, but don’t put your superior knowledge out for them… if this season hasn’t told you that there have had to be cuts and changes, nothing will.

    it is far easier for everyone when the mods make a hard line than to be wishy washy about it. besides the unsullied – whose thread it is – just want you to go away.

    Valid point, fredowebbe, but my post DID NOT CONTAIN SPOILERS EITHER VEILED OR UNVEILED!! I haven’t read all the books in any case – I have reached the end of ASOS,so am not really “Sullied”.

  532. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    The Unburnt,

    I agree 100%, the lack of build up to some of these big moments is something David and Dan need to work on. The Mountain Vs the Viper was another scene that was was done disservice by just being tacked on at the end without proper build up. The entire episode 9 suffered from lack of build up. Building up to these moments is important otherwise they don’t have the dramatic impact they should. Imagine how different the audience reaction would be to the Red Wedding if Robb and Catelyn showed up at the Twins in episode 8 and then the only scene we saw of them in episode 9 was the finale one where they get killed. The scene wouldn’t have had nearly the same dramatic power because it would have just been tacked on at the end without any buildup to it. They dropped the ball with Tyrion/Tywin imo not necessarily because of the lack of Tysha but because of the lack of build up to it give the scene the dramatic weight it deserves. This is an issue they need to work on for future seasons and future big moments. I know it’s easier said than done though having juggle all these plotlines and characters. I wouldn’t want their job.

  533. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    But Tyrion is an important character on the show, arguably the most important. I don’t think show-watchers need to be spoon-fed that learning the first love of your life was gang-raped in front of you (by your father’s orders) is traumatic and psychologically damaging to the extreme.

  534. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    theamir,

    There is never a legitimate reason to criticise changes just for the sake of it.

  535. King DBC
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I know D&D avoid the internet, but someone needs to diplomatically tell them they’ve fucked up. I’ve always been in favor of the liberties they’ve taken, if they’re well done and justified, this time it was just bad. Tyrion’s rampant murders without the motivation is just bad writing. After all their hype it just fell flat, along with Ep 9. They’re proud of this as being their best work yet, no, sorry. I’m also worried about season 5 now. I’m not angry and ranting, I will be back to watch next year. I’m disappointed and no longer have as much trust in them as I did.

  536. S
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    gewa76:
    Tabes,

    It must be cut, because Hibberd of EW just posted an article defending their decision not to include her. Hibberd is basically D&D’s PR man.

    I think this is exactly correct and it is just going to take a while for many fans here to square with that.

  537. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    like it.

    People only GRRM & D&D know the whole story. So D&D take what they think is important. We dont really know, all we do is guess.

    LS and her merry band will show up next season, just as Barristan showed up 2 seasons later. no need to bring a actor back this year for just one scene.

  538. Winter
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    0KEN0:
    It’s equal parts hilarious and pathetic how petty, hyperbolic, and unrealistic some of the “fans” around here are.

    I watched the finale with 8 people. Sullied and Unsullied alike all agreed this was one of GoT’s very best hours. The fact that people are missing all the fantastic parts here because of their obsession over the omission of an over-rated character, or a few changes is so sad.

    The people who are talking about quitting the show; to them I say see you! These comments sections will be a lot nicer when it isn’t filled with so much bitching. And you wont be missed. This show will do fine without the minority of purists who can’t appreciate the show. Finally, given that D&D know the ending, the show will likely land more or less in the same place as the books… so have fun avoiding spoilers for the next 10-15+ years while you wait for George to finish the books.

    Anyway, it was a fantastic episode. I’m not a blind show fan. There are definitely small things I didn’t like here and here, but overall that was just a great piece of television. Fantastic performances, great VFX and music, some amazing fight scenes, and some big book moments being (at least mostly) represented extremely well on screen!

    Overall the season 4 didn’t quite live up to the brilliance of the end of Storm of Swords, but it was still great stuff! When does season 5 start?!

    Yes! I to am hearing nothing but positive things with regards to the finale, which my friends agree is the strongest closer yet. The consensus is that Season 4 is on par with Season 1, and the end of Season 3.

    I too am not blind to the short-comings of the season. The battle at the Wall could have been built up better imo, I would have liked to have seen the Mountain in pain akin to the books – this would have given the viewers some sort of gratification over Oberyn’s death, Dany’s storyline wavered mid-season, Arya/Hound’s travels whilst entertaining became a bit repetitive and tiresome. But in the grand scheme of things, these are but small complaints that for me don’t detract from the overall brilliance of Season 4.

    I just wish some naysayers had a bit of empathy for the show runners and how difficult it is to adapt ASOIAF. George doesn’t have time and budgetary constraints, his narrative is limitless and boundless. If you’re constantly comparing the execution of a scene to it’s book counterpart, you’re never going to be satisfied, what a way to watch an series.

    What D&D continue to do is produce a sprawling epic never before seen on the TV medium, juggling a million different plots and characters; one will ultimately suffer at the expense of another, that’s just the way it goes. When you see both the books and the shows as separate forms of entertainment, and lower your expectations with regards to certain events, your viewing experience will become even more enjoyable.

    I am very much looking forward to Season 5, granted D&D will face their biggest challenge, they have to create the series that Martin should have written, rather than filming the one he wrote.

  539. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Because Jaime has begun to open up and clear up his name.
    Did you not read his chapters?
    Jaime feels deep guilt for Tyrion and Tywins relationship, about Shae and the trial. He wasnt there in the books, so tries to help out after he disknowledges Tywin and Cersei.
    He sees the monster Tywin is in the end. He loves to a degree.
    I find it a weird thing to be set up about, it all come together in that moment. It was set up way before.

  540. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    jentario: Twitter people should bombard Bryan Cogman for a definitive answer

    No. Absolutely not.
    1. It won’t work.
    2. It would make the fandom look terrible and could make him want to not be on Twitter at all. DO NOT DO THAT.

  541. Rita
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    Remember Bran’s vision of seeing the dragon shadow over Kings Landing? He will never walk agin but he will fly as the 3 eyed raven said. Will we see him warg into Drogon next season?

  542. Nicolai
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    JTargs,

    No, I think they have pushed her to ending of 501, or introduce her in a diffrent way than in the books.

  543. Strepsi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I am a book reader and re-reader, but sriously the fandom is making itself look terrible already — y’all ruined a fine hour of television for yourselves by squealing in anticipation of the epilogue, then when it didn’t come had a TANTRUM???!!1!!1! all over the internet.

    I find the Book Reader commenters often forget that the producers have to cast actors on salaries for each episode: you really thought that they’d hire ALL the Brothers without Banners for one scene in one episode this season? Of course not, and I expect that LS storyline to begin, happen, and end in Season 5 so they can hire them all for 1 season. (this is also why, with the BwoB and Dorne Sand snakes coming, they had to clean house a bit (Grenn, Pip, etc.) this season.

    Honestly, for a bunch of supposedly literate adults, you all are making Twi-Hards seem sane in comparison.

  544. Yellow Dog
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Through five books and 39 episodes, nothing Dany did could make me care much about her.

    Until last night. Her chaining up her children and leaving them in the dark as they cried out for their mother just about killed me.

    Dragon CGI just amazing.

  545. Ginevra
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Regarding all of the book deviations, starting with how they replaced Shae for Tysha: Tysha wasn’t a whore at all until Tywin made it so, as Book Jaime reveals just before this scene. So when Book Tywin called Tysha a whore, he’s maliciously lying about her. Many moons ago, Tyrion told Jon, “Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.” Well, if Tyrion believes in calling a spade a spade, he should also believe in calling a whore a whore. And Shae is a whore, which has never been clearer than when he found her whoring in Tywin’s bed. So why would Tyrion have qualms with calling her anything but? That scene didn’t work nearly as well as in the books.

    Another scene that didn’t work nearly as well was the Jaime/Cersei scene. How does Jaime go straight from loving his sister one minute to completely betraying her the next with Tyrion’s escape? And how is that about-face not addressed in the show?

    How about Varys heading off with Tyrion? That might actually be a cool deviation if they play it well.

    I love that they kept the “thousand eyes and one” line to let us know that this was, indeed, Bloodraven, but why wasn’t he a single-eyed, red-eyed albino with a raven-shaped facial birthmark? Though he may have a glass eye here, and even that’s doubtful, he’s never been described as using a glass eye before, preferring instead an empty socket or rarely a patch. The “thousand eyes and one” line just doesn’t work for two-eyed dudes!

  546. The Winter Rose
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I generally don’t mind the deviations from the book, but I did scream at the TV when Jojen died. Was not expecting that. Poor Jojen :(

    Overall I liked it, but sad that it looks like we’re not getting Coldhands or Lady Stoneheart now.

    I wonder what they are going to do with Bran’s plot now that it is caught up to where the books are. Will Bran and Co. even be in next season, I wonder.

    I liked the look of the Child of the Forest, though I wished I had seen Bloodraven’s marking and also wish they did more with his special effects make-up to make him look more ancient and entwined in the roots itself.

  547. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: No. Absolutely not.
    1. It won’t work.
    2. It would make the fandom look terrible and could make him want to not be on Twitter at all. DO NOT DO THAT.

    I think Jentario was being sarcastic. Plus Cogman has taken a hiatus from Twitter starting on Saturday. I believe he suspected this very outcome

  548. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Andy Greenwald has posted his unsullied recap. http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/game-of-thrones-season-4-finale-recap-a-lannister-repays-his-debts/

    Looks like he also felt the Tyrion scene was awfully rushed. See it’s not only us book readers :p

  549. Chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    And so ends the ability of book readers to really know what’s going to happen.
    We’ve already seen snippets of AFFC and ADWD in Season 4 but for the most part it was… Season One book one, SEason Two Book Two, Seasons Three and Four Book three.
    Now, it’s anyone’s guess where the show goes. That may make it more confounding for book readers but also give us more common ground in the breathless anticipation and unknown department.
    Already seen some references to Ray Harryhausen’s “Jason and the Argonauts” which are 100 apt. …but yow!
    I liked Varys’ abrupt change of plans when he heard the bells. That wasn’t mentioned in the books but it was a good guess once he learned of Tywin’s death and his role in it. While the Hound vs. Brienne smackdown was satisfying, it was inconsistent. The Hound should have kicked her ass. The only reason he was mortally wounded in the books was that he was outnumbered AND drunk.
    There was no interaction between Jon and Mellisandre in ASOS and the brief glimpse they got of each other… over the flames… was fantastic and telling.
    Yeah, the disappearance of LS was a letdown. Not only would it have been a good “holy shit” moment to wrap up the season but it would have reminded us who the hell she is. Now there will have to be a special appearance from the Red Wedding in the “Previously on Game of Thrones” clip just to explain it.
    Ah well.
    B+

  550. Blind Beth
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    I want to respond to the two major complaints people seem to have.

    1) No Tysha confession / no “where do whores go?” – This works great in the books because we have the time and the direct thoughts of Tryion to completely flesh out how Tysha and Shae are totally different. With the compressed time in the show and not having access to Tyrion’s thoughts I think it would come across as weirdly repetitive. Besides, it would be even more repetitive in the show since both Tysha and show Shea had genuine feelings for Tyrion.

    Tysha reveal also worked in the books because the brutal revelation and bro breakup of Tyrion and Jamie was followed by pure revenge and catharsis for Tyrion. Book Shea is actually a terrible person and a sociopath with no redeeming qualities, so most readers are probably pretty happy to see the end of her even though it is a dark moment for Tyrion. I was a little disturbed on Tyrion’s behalf that he killed two people in cold blood about 5 minutes apart, but I also felt that both Shea and Tywin REALLY had it coming so I wasn’t sad on their behalfs.

    However, in the show, Tywin is presented as a slightly more sympathetic person than in the books. He has Arya bonding time, and as played by Charles Dance he comes across as brutal but largely fair and rational player of the GoT. So, while I doubt most viewers feel super bad for him right now, any happiness that Tyrion has dished out some comeuppance is tempered by the fact that we don’t get any more Charles Dance scenery-chewing.

    Shea in the show is also more sympathetic. I know lots of people hate her for betraying Tyrion, but I hope even they realize that her betrayal was a crime of passion, not the calculated conniving of someone who doesn’t give a shit. I actually still feel a lot of sympathy for Shea and see her death as tragic even if it was kind of inevitable, and I don’t think I’m the only one who feels that way.

    So, in sum, I think it was wise to leave out the Tysha reveal because:
    - there simply isn’t time in the show to develop it for maximum effect
    - Tywin and Shea’s deaths are set up to be sadder in the show than in the books, so additional sadness with Jamie and Tysha would have made Tyrion’s season arc wrap even more depressing than in the books, which is more depressing than I personally wanted to deal with.

    2) No Lady Stoneheart – I completely forgot about her while watching the show. It was only a few minutes after the end of the episode that I realized she hadn’t been in it. My only reaction was “oh crap, some people are going to be mad about that and let themselves get totally distracted from an awesome finale.” And it seems that’s exactly what happened.

    (Note: I’m not saying people are wrong for being disappointed about not seeing her–I would have been disappointed if Tyrion hadn’t made it into a shipping container and onto a ship, or if we had left Arya walking towards Saltpans instead of on her ship with POTC-esque theme music–just that I think that letting yourself feel totally negative about the finale because that one part was missing is cheating yourself of great entertainment.)

    Maybe LS will be in Season 5, maybe she won’t. I don’t particularly care anymore. I think that could be a very meaty thing for D&D to work with, but I also think that Arya and the Sand Snakes will provide a lot of room to explore the theme of all-consuming revenge and its consequences, and I think that the accelerated pace of the plotline in the show will bring us other great “fuck yeah!” poetic justice moments of Stannis v. Boltons, Cercei’s downfall, Oberyn being avenged by his daughters, and probably even more that we don’t even know about yet.

    In the books, LS’s triumph over some of her murderers has to tide us over for years before we get some more substantial comeuppance for the Frey/Bolton axis powers, but it’s looking like we’ll get all the highlights of the Song of Ice and Fire over the next three to four years, so substantial comeuppance may only be months away on the show.

    More importantly, I feel like this episode was so well done that for the first time I feel comfortable letting go of a lot of my conceptions about what HAS to be in the show. I think D&D have finally reached a level of adaptation mastery that I can just sit down and enjoy some great television without being jarred by things that not only are not in the books but make no sense in the context of the show. The show has its own internal logic and flow and I think I’m now ready to fully accept it as totally its own thing.

  551. Proudwing
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Lady Stoneheart is about as interesting as drywall.

  552. sherry
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    I think Tyrion will run into Tysha in Pentos. Where it goes from there, who knows? But she was the love of Tyrion’s life they are bound to reunite sometime in this story.
    Jojen dead? :(
    I think the Hound vs. Brienne was a cool addition.
    And, Stannis riding in to save the day was an awesome scene, too.
    I am a book reader, and I have no complaints about the finale. As for LS, she might show up in the 5th Season at some point. But, if she doesn’t maybe Arya can do the revenge honors! :)
    Michelle Fairley is very busy these days, she makes an awesome villain(the terrorist mastermind on 24)and I have always believed that Talisa being LS would be a cool twist. However, leaving LS out is not the end of the world. Like I say, Arya can do the vengeance part very well, I think.

  553. Tenesmus
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    With regard to LS, I see this going one of two ways, obviously, but either way the Blackfish (BF) may have a slightly different role than books. If LS is in, it makes sense for BF to be the one to pull Cat from the river, then run into the BWB, and then it plays out almost the same. If LS is out, then BF still joins the BWB and assumes LS’s role in the Frey killing spree. When they capture Brienne and once she knows BF is Cat’s brother, it all plays out the same. This theory also aligns with the rumor of Jaime going to Dorne on TV. It gives the BF something else to do.

  554. smitzzz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    You lie Lena! Unless next season……,

    Twitter people should bombard Bryan Cogman for a definitive answer

    Firstly no , lets not , secondly are you for real? , what makes you feel that Brian Cogman or anybody else connected to the show is in any way answerable to you? on top of that I think it is safe to say nobody connected to the show will give away any plotlines for season 5 . It has been said a million times before ,if you don’t like the way the show is going then it is really simple , just don’t watch it , if you people still don’t get that the show and the books are told in two completely different ways even after 40 episodes then there must be something seriously wrong with you.

  555. Kuuh Kuuh Kuuh
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    JamesL: If they had to kill off some characters for budgetary reasons why not Meera instead of Jojen.

    Because Meera & Brandon sittin’ in a tree k i s s i n g.

  556. croccifixio
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    i’m calling it again, LS will be episode 1′s last scene. and with varys joining tyrion, there will be no illyrio mopatis. varys will be the one on his shoes.

  557. PatD
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Ever since this whole project started, I’ve been pretty much okay with the changes made by the TV adaptation. Except for a couple story *development* problems, I’ve always felt these guys were entitled to their artistic interpretations. They’re the ones who brought the books to life, they’re the ones who bought the rights, they’re the ones who secured HBO as a platform, they’re the ones who have been doing all the endless hours of legwork,etc., so I’ve been a major supporter of their artistic freedom.

    But you know why people are starting to get pissed off?

    It’s because viewers and fans are beginning to feel made foolish.

    This whole thing with LS is starting to seem more than a little disingenuous. Like it’s become some sort of backstage joke, or something.

    If the decision has been made to cut that story ARC from the series, then okay. Be done with it. It’s not a spoiler to say so, because if it’s being cut, it has NO BEARING on the show. Stop jerking the fans around. Headey with her Instagram, justifications through Hibberd’s article devoted to the LS as a non issue…

    It’s just starting to feel dumb now.

    I can’t get all worked up like some fans are getting worked up. I mean, in the whole scheme of things, it is just a TV show, peeps. Let’s try to keep that in perspective. But I am beginning to understand the negativity it’s generating.

  558. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    It goes back to what I was saying before, we should have got another scene mentioning Tysha… They did a great disservice to the best character in Game of thrones by not highlighting his motivations properly, but then again, it’s D&D. We should all expect pathetic changes.

  559. Val
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    I really thought LS was in, and I’m still hoping for it, but objectively, I just don’t see it happening anymore.
    The “spoilery” things in the show so far have been about the more obvious things (how walkers are made, Robert Strong, Jojen dying, etc), but the Tysha thing just doesn’t make sense to me. I guess Tyrion could be less drunk and broody if the falling out with Jaime doesn’t happen, but that doesn’t seem like a good enough reason.

  560. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Dropping Tysha and LSH is too much. I really can’t take it anymore. D&D are torturing the fanbase. Well I’m done, the character butchering happening on this show is too much. Let’s hope Martin gets his act together for book 6 because this show blows.

  561. El Beto
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Varys doesn’t do much else on the books, except for the final chapter of aDwD.
    Jojen is clearly a spoiler, he’s gping to die and he’s not important anymore.
    Theon is already on Winterfell, Brienne story is short, so does Davo’s.
    Sansa already have new scenes
    . I believe Season 5 is going to cover Books 4 and 5.

    By that time we hope RR Martin’ll gave us Book 6, right?
    That leave us with Season 6 for Book 6 and Season 7 for the invented and not invented parts they already know/have.
    After all, the scumbags are going to get away with theirs and make only 7 seasons. Leaving us Readers with the difficult task to live in a shelf for years until the book is out, orresign to watch the show first (also, non-readers are son of bitches and are going to spoil us everything in case we decide not watching the show until reading the saga).

    Lastly, I was dissapointed by not seing Lady Stoneheart. Would have been the best episode so far. Also a damn spoiler: maybe she’s not that important so they cut her.

    PD:
    I often find the reviews to be obnoxious because, the girl here is so fuckin’ girly and sometimes she doesn’t make sense at all. I mean, her criteria is 0, everything amuses her and makes her happy… NO, a lot of things are made by poor adaptation and they suck big time.

  562. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    The reason Tyrian kills tywin in the books for saying whore is because tywin was denying that Tysha was a crofters daughter.
    Why would Tyrion kill hick for that reason otherwise?

    I’m pretty sure D&D didn’t understand that scene. It was probably too complicated for them, and so they messed up another thing in the series. Oh well….

  563. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Only casuals can buy that tywin death.

    Then again this show is made for casuals. It’s not the wire, but I keep hoping it is…

  564. SkywalkerIsDead
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    perkins,

    perkins:
    Didn’t like brienne besting the hound twice.Figured he should have had a few drinks in him to lose.

    He wasn’t drunk, however the mention of his infected wound making him slower and weaker was foreshadowed throughout the later part of a season. That is the main reason he was bested by Brienne. Not to mention if that was any body else The Hound would have killed them right away and not played around. Big fan of Brienne, but I don’t like how two of her fights with major characters, Jamie and Sandor, made them weak in order to defeat them. It kind of belittles her ability as an opponent.

  565. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Ginevra,

    Nice thoughts and critique. It does seem like they could have built up even more relevant rage within Tyrion throughout the season regarding a certain past betrayal by his father and brother. I would have loved to hear Dance say “Wherever whores go…” offhand, which sets Tyrion off.

    It seems that Jaime & Cersei’s connection is simply separate from their scheming…everything they do together, hypocritical or not, is almost tangential to their political and social agendas.

    I like the Varys tag-along. We don’t really know if that happened in the books either. He simply disappeared from KL. I think it is a good sign. He has decided to act and bring his Targaryen/Blackfyre back to Westeros. This is wonderful news, imho.

    Yes, BR was not quite right. No, no, no…He is not Dumbledore! He is not really an old man either. He is fully immersed in the root structure of the weirwood…he is the master of the weirnet. He should have skin like weathered bark and one fucking eye. Like you said, at least he said the words “You will not walk again, but you will fly” and “I have 1000 eyes and one” but for over 100 years, he has had one fear-inducing eye. That scene, especially after reading that it was submitted to the Emmys for “best makeup” disappointed.

    Also, after seeing the audition tape for the child who played Leaf, I was expecting much more of a dark, mysterious tone to her presence. The Monty-Pythonesque fireball throwing (“There are those who call me…Tim!”), poorly-imagined CotF that we got was very underwhelming. Also, if they went to such extent and expense to go all Pirates of the Caribbean on us with video-game like skeletons, why not Coldhands?

    That being said, I rather enjoyed the episode. But the debate and critiques must go on! Foolish complacency and numb satisfaction will be the death of us all!

  566. Jason Yager
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    The Unburnt:
    HOW can they ruin the greatest (IMHO) Tyrion scene in the books due to, what, running out of time? Adding a bunch of other crap that wasn’t needed? Tyrion still had plenty of motivation shown to want to kill Tywin, but without the Tysha tie-in it was just anticlimactic to me. Besides being hurried….no chat with Jaime, Varys running around without a disguise, Tyrion not hurrying to the Tower of the Hand, oh hell. You all know what I’m talking about. 5 extra minutes could have made all the difference.

    Would have had an extra 10 minutes to devote to Tyrion if they would have moved Stannis’ 10 minute scene to last week’s short 48 minute episode where it belonged.

  567. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Last shot of the season is Arya on her way to Bravoos, while a track called “the children” plays (makes no sense)? :-/

    They choose that lamery i guess as forshadowing of the boredom that will be season 5 over Stannis fu*king Baratheon ???????????????

    Not to mention Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS! cheer never happend !!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????

  568. Ginevra
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Turncloak

    I love the adaptation overall, and D&D have certainly done as well as I could have hoped an adaptation to do. But nominating this episode for best writing when everything good about the episode comes from GRRM just feels wrong. The changes that Bryan Cogman made in “The Laws of Gods and Men” felt smooth, fleshed out, and right; the transitions between scenes were ingenious perfection; and the episode’s adaption seemed truly Oscar-worthy. But “The Children” script, based on four of the most incredible moments in the book series, gets carried mostly on the weight of what George has already written.

  569. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I find myself with such mixed feelings about the episode, although I did enjoy it. I can’t even make a meaningful comparison with other seasonal finales yet, since I need to continue processing it. Yet my complaints seem to have little to do with what other people are upset about.

    While I would have really enjoyed the LSH scene, I think it would have been over the top in its WTF-content. This isn’t because I don’t think the show can successfully pull it off, but because we haven’t even seen the BWB since sometime in S3. I’d at least expect some kind of scene establishing where they are or what they’re up to before we get the big reveal, if we do at all.

    And in terms of the Tysha issue, I’m less concerned that they didn’t show it (I think there are ways of reintegrating and reemphasizing that back story in S5), I’m bothered by how convenient and rushed the escape felt. We didn’t see Tyrion in his cell until the escape. If I had my way/if the runners had infinite time, I’d love to have seen a shot of Cersei visiting Tyrion in his cell earlier in the episode. Perhaps she doesn’t even enter. She can merely taunt him through the bars and relish his inevitable fate. This could have doubled as a way for Cersei to establish some of her child-specific paranoia, by characterizing Tyrion as a demon to be eliminated for the protection of her children. Because S9 was devoted to The Wall, emphasizing Tyrion’s plight and really bringing a note of bitterness, defeat, and acceptance of his fate would have done a lot of tonal work in setting up the importance of the escape. It also would have given Lena and Peter a final, dark scene together, since they’ve always been excellent when paired.

    Then, position the Jaime/Cersei scene after the Cersei/Tyrion scene. Cersei is a bit unhinged here, and she’s manipulating Jaime back into her good graces. But remember the shocking “rape” scene from earlier in the season–one I felt made complete sense, but would make even more sense if this scene was adequately framed as its “mirror”–for instance, if we see lines of trouble written across Jaime’s features so as to acknowledge that he is, at least in one fundamental way, changed. Remember that Jaime’s viciousness toward Cersei in the Sept was inspired by her act of withholding her love unless Jaime dishonors himself and his family by killing Tyrion, someone he loves. With Tyrion’s fate in the balance, this scene – if moved after the one I suggested – would steel Jaime for what he has to do, and illustrate the gap that exists between him and his sister (even as she tries to close that gap for her own ends).

    Onto the escape itself: it needed two things, in my opinion. 1) We should have seen Jaime actually work his way down to Tyrion, risking being found out. This would have been important for Nikolai, especially if we saw him fight with his one good hand, as it would have satisfactorily resolved the arc which began after he began his training anew. Further, it would have emphasized the sense of danger. 2) The moment between Tyrion and Jaime could have been prolonged. I don’t mean to say that we needed “the thing” everyone is talking about, but I would have liked to see Tyrion force Jaime to wait as he went off to do his business. This would introduce at least a little ambiguity to the question of whether Jaime is doing the right thing, and it would have given an opportunity to introduce a little more complexity to the goodbye. That said, I loved the positive note that they went out on. It’s okay for a moment of sincerity, and not every relationship needs to be devastated. At this point in the books, there isn’t much indication that Tyrion’s bitter departure is going to have any direct impact on Jaime’s story from here on out, so giving audiences an alternate conclusion isn’t too controversial in itself.

    These are structural issues, mostly. They’re missed opportunities because I feel like, perhaps for the first time, that more breathing room really was necessary to do justice to certain character arcs.

    I’ve already commented on the Bran stuff above, so suffice it to say that the wight CG didn’t do the job for me, and made Jojen’s surprise death a bit harder to swallow.

    Dany’s scenes were excellent, but again, I really would have appreciated one more scene where we see her react to all that has befallen her in a short time. This could have been with Selmy or Missandei or really any of her advisors, and it could have been placed before or after the chaining. But having her react to Jorah’s betrayal, giving her a moment of “what am I going to do now?” or some kind of vocalized uncertainty would have been proper, given the already “rushed” expulsion of Jorah two episodes prior. So what we got wasn’t bad by any means, but I felt that it missed one key framing element to make Dany’s arc feel satisfactorily depicted in advance of S5.

    The strongest material of the episode was the Hound/Brienne stuff. It made total sense to me, and is another case where I think that deviating from the book material just works. The fight was vicious, and it worked on at least two levels: as a thrilling piece of action choreography that made us question who we rooted for, and as an embodiment of who Brienne and the Hound are as characters. And by the end of it, Brienne is throwing overhead punches and howling like an animal, too, because that’s what survival looks like. Brienne’s vow-obsession and Sandor’s willingness to state that he – in fact – really is looking out for Arya represents the culmination of the questions of knighthood that have constantly surrounded these two since their televised introductions many seasons prior. And I thought Maisie and Rory acted the shit out of The Hound’s final request. From this, the boat stuff was also great–and in the absence of the thing I mentioned at the outset of this post, it was a sensible place to end the season. It’s certainly a stronger exit than season 3′s closer.

  570. Ben from Yronwood
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I see some considered responses from book readers who are disappointed. Thats OK. You didn’t get your line in, you think a ‘Tysha’ reference could have worked. You thought you might see Stoneheart. I’m sorry you didn’t get exactly what you wanted. But…

    …The episode worked really well anyway. Unsullied will not miss a Tysha reference. They will not miss Stoneheart. They will not wonder why Jojen died. This is your baggage and your issue. Be dissappointed if you want but please separate your ‘it didn’t happen like the book’ moments from actual criticisms of what we saw irrespective of what was in the books. Here is a secret: D&D did not make the series for you. They made it for people who have not read the books who they wanted to share it with.

    Ah, but the missed opportunities you say! Stoneheart would have been terrific season closer! We need to see the conflict between Jaime and Tyrion! Etc. True, we miss out on seeing those things. But we really have no clue what the choices and trade-offs were. I think you can not pretend you do until you seriously block out Seven seasons worth of high level planning and 4 seasons worth of low level planning. Then constrain it by
    - budget, crew, cast and set availability,
    - the best script that will pass internal network review,
    - your best guess at how closely casual fans are following the show,
    - the sense of momentum you need at this specific episode of this specific season
    - the limited amount you can do respond to critical and fan feedback from the last season
    - your imagination, since you are projecting how it will work in your head
    - random low level issues like working with horses and cats and arguing co-stars
    - your own favourite parts of the book
    - other parts of the book you think the fans think are important
    - how you believe you can push CGI and other effects
    - the fact you have no real idea which little details are important for the endgame

    …and who knows what else. The point is I think very few decisions are not the result of cross-benefit analysis, or at worst the results of ‘well, this at least ticks the most number of these boxes that I can think of’. So I have faith that someone (or multiple someones) in the best position to do so, because they are working on this literally fulltime, has made if not the best but one of the best decisions possible in most instances.

    I’m sorry but I am not convinced by what is essentially a gut feeling of how it could have been better given all of those factors.

    We are very lucky this series is even in production, let alone that it is as ridiculously faithful as it is (and it is). Time and time again it is more complicated than it needs to be out of pure fan service.

    So I really liked it, and while I might have temporary disappointments, I get over them, basically because I’m an adult.

  571. Harry
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Apart from the whining of some book purists, some overall complaints in this season 4 were IMO right.

    But the reason I think was always the same:
    Some scenes felt like they were filmed hasty and too short, and others (less important ones) were too long.

  572. the other guy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Hugely disappointed by the lack of Stoneheart, what could have been GoT’s finest hour by miles was diminished by not having ASoS’ epilogue at the end. Finale was still very good, but not mind-blowing. Arya getting on the boat was a strong ending for HER season 4 storyline. Not for season 4 as a whole.

    Now this could mean two things.

    1) They decided to postpone LS until season 5. AFFC/ADWD combined don’t have a lot of huge climax scenes compared to ASoS, they may have wanted to save her appearence for when they need a big ending.

    2) LS is completly cut from the show, for reasons unknown. Now this would mean that one of the current books plotline is leading to absolutely nowhere, because I don’t see ANY TV production in their right mind reading ASoS’ epilogue and thinking “Oh, this wouldn’t work well on screen, let’s cut it”.

    I can’t imagine her being cut.
    They took the time to introduce Beric and the brotherhood in season 3. They showed us Thoros and the fact that he can resurrect people.
    What are Brienne and Pod going to do in season 5 without LS ?

    Now that I think it over, she has to be in. They just missed a really good opportunity for a giant, mind-blowing cliffhanger. Just like last year.

  573. JTargs
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II,
    No, Beric is just such a minor background character that I don’t think any show watchers will remember some guy with an eye patch from season two by the time Jon is resurrected in season six.

    The assertion that GRRM should have given Beric a bigger role rather than introducing Stonehesrt is just silly for the same reasons.nobody wants to read about beric dondarrion if they can read about an actual character lol

  574. JTargs
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Ooops I meant season three

  575. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Well, it’s not always as simple as that. I agree with you that getting deep into who Beric is would be a pointless exercise in the show’s iteration of the story. But, at the same time, the LSH reveal would benefit from at least some reestablishing information about the BWB before it happens, if it ever does. But this “reestablishing information” – a scene or two, ultimately – needn’t be devoted just to the BWB. The trick of adaptation is thinking about how scenes can accomplish multiple objectives at once. Two birds, one stone is always more efficient answer. So the real question isn’t “who is this guy with the eyepatch?”, because I think audience members would remember just fine. The real question is “why are we seeing this guy with the eyepatch again, and what is this scene accomplishing?”

    And I don’t think providing an answer to that question is an impossible task, should D&D opt to go that route before “the big reveal”, if they ever make it (I’m not saying they have to, and I didn’t even really expect it this season).

  576. Boojam
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    jentario: Drogon namedrop!
    And Emilia did some solid acting in the end there.

    Will someone ask , Bryan, after 4 seasons we have gotten only one out of three?!!

  577. Lyn
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    GRRMlin,

    If you hate D&D so much then stop watching the show. I didn’t agree with some of the changes they made but that doesn’t mean I think they are stupid, as you are implying. So please, go whine somehere else.

  578. Dheep'
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Even with having read the books ,was a very satisfying conclusion to the season. Was very happy with where pretty much everything had gotten.
    It got very tedious in the books ,the “Where do Whores go Line”.

  579. Saar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    wow I loved this episode!
    I almost teared up when Dany put her dragons in chains, such a powerful scene.
    Kinda ironic how she tried to get the slaves out of their chains and ended up having to chain her own dragons.
    Also loved the confrontation of Tyrion with Shae and Tywin.
    And the fight between Brienne and the Hound was amazing!
    I really wanted Lady Stoneheart to appear though, that would have made the ending that more powerful.
    I’d rather have them not use her now, because it would seem cheap now, that long after she has been killed (it would be 2 years since we’ve last seen her)
    I also don’t get why Catelyn has been mentioned for so many times in this season.
    I really want Catelyn to find out that Ned never betrayed her by sleeping with another woman and that Jon really is Lyanna’s son with Rhaegar

  580. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    I saw the episode again, tempers have cooled, it definitely improves on a rewatch and I feel less depressed about the lack of Tysha and all the other major/minor story changes which we don’t know are permanent or not (so if there’s no fake Horn of Joramun mentioned, is perhaps the implication is that the show won’t have the real one either? Of course, maybe neither do the books, but I always assumed it was the ‘drinking horn’ found with the dragonglass on the ‘Fist of the First Men,’ which Sam takes with him to Oldtown – they actually showed the horn in Season 2 of the show too. Plus, I always assumed that Jaime and Tyrion would be ready to kill each other if they crossed paths again).

    I don’t know. Part of the reason I panicked was that with all these potential changes, the Jaime in Dorne leak and D&D saying their basically adamant on 7 seasons they were basically going to be writing a completely new story only vaguely based on the source material from here on out. But that’s probably premature and, like George has in the past, I think they will be forced to expand upon their original plan to eight seasons even IF they’re writing a new story, just because there’s no way they can bring Tyrion to Dany and them both back to Westeros, wrapping up all the storylines along the way, in a dramatically satisfying fashion with only three 10-episode seasons. The show just hasn’t been moving at that kind of pace.

    And stuff like the fact that the Hound is still alive (as is his brother), the casting rumors, etc. make me confident that the show will remain preeetty loyal to the books, or at the very least we will continue to see most of our favorite scenes play out in a dramatically satisfying fashion 99% of the time.
    tbc

  581. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    The finale really is great…mostly. But that CotF scene sticks out like a sore thumb. The overlong action sequence, the exploding fireballs, the stilted dialogue of Leaf and Bloodraven, the set design out of Legend, and that cheesy last line which may cause Unsullied to think that Bran will, literally, fly. If ever there was a time D&D SHOULD have divulged from the page, for sure that would have been a smart choice.

    And the buildup to the Tyrion/Tywin denouement still feels rushed. Choppy editing with zoom-ins, and zero explanation is given for how Tyrion got to the Tower of the Hand or how he knows about the trapdoor. It felt like they were pressed for time, as if HBO execs were demanding they get it under ’67 minutes!’ Forgive me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t HBO have to fill the time until 10:15 with commercials anyway? If there were ever a sequence that needed to breathe and slowly build up tension, that was it.

    Upon rewatch, those are the bones I still have to pick. And I still miss the awesome book Stannis, but that’s old news I guess, we bid farewell to him in Season 3.

    What’s mostly important is that for the Unsullied, it was probably a great finale.

  582. DanielHimalia
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    But you know why people are starting to get pissed off?
    It’s because viewers and fans are beginning to feel made foolish.

    How about we agree that this should read:

    “But you know why the people who have read the books and are commenting on winteriscoming.net are starting to get pissed off?”

    Because, after all, let’s face it… the rest of the world who watches the show is probably not pissed off about anything, and had a whole bunch of varying emotions over the season finale that have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with books, fans or anything else.

  583. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    outdoorcats: that cheesy last line which may cause Unsullied to think that Bran will, literally, fly.

    Given how many people theorize Bran may warg into a dragon at some point, this is actually possible.

  584. matt v.
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    wow, the episode is near perfection. my second favorite. best episode is still blackwater. but this one is near. LOVED: bran’s story, Stannis, Brienne vs hound, tyrion the killer!!! what an episode!
    The mountain alive and become something different? so excited!
    And arya you coldheart killer, loved her watching the hound die. Heartless.
    Poor Jojen :(
    Next season: Tyrion and Varys!! Bran flying!! Stannis and co at the wall!! and so much more… ugh 10 months…
    Best season so far!

  585. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    JTargs:
    The assertion that GRRM should have given Beric a bigger role rather than introducing Stonehesrt is just silly for the same reasons.nobody wants to read about beric dondarrion if they can read about an actual character lol

    I think it is more about how the major characters react to changes brought about by minor characters that have been brought forth. Like Oberyn, like Daario, like Beric, like Pycelle, like Qyburn, like Penny. Beric indirectly taught Arya a lot about life and death and contributed to her progression toward facelessness. The minor characters are stupendously interesting in ASoI&F and often they are game-changers. In the latter books, we even have a hard time distinguishing between minor and major characters as additional PoVs are brought forth.

    Is LS a minor character in grand scheme of things? Probably. Is she interesting? Yes, imho. Is she a game changer? Most likely. Is she necessary to the show? I hope so, but who knows where Brienne’s storyline is heading now…hopefully toward the BwB, where former vows will truly be tested….

  586. matt v.
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    I have to say this: to the book readers(1-2% who watches the show) i have great respect for you, but you are waaaay to critical! really it is annoying. So, D&D making this show for ALL people. Not just for book readers. Think as an Unsullied – this was an amazing season, full packed with a lot of characters and storylines.
    - You ask why no CH? Well the bran story this episode was so good it would be to much to digest to show CH too. To confusing…
    - Why no LS? thats a storyline thats told in many episodes, not just as an end. Its really better to introduce her in S5E1. She is to important to be cut.
    - Why no Tyrisha? After everything with tyrion this season you wanna throw the tyrisha story on unsullied?? CONFUSING. You probably read the books a million of times so you know her story and wanna hear it on show, but not a good idea for unsullied. Varys can tell him next season.
    - Why so many new storys which are not in books? well, you wanna 8-9 seasons? they invent new storylines to make an actionfull season and maybe more than 7 seasons, so it will not be as boring as some of the later books.

  587. outdoorcats
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    That’s true, I completely forgot about that. That theory could have gained a good deal of credibility last night.

  588. Kate
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Excellent episode! Usually, I think that the episodes tend to be overcrowded a bit but for some reason I felt that the finale managed to give all the storylines enough time to not feel rushed.
    I LOVED the sequence with Stannis’ army and I am not a huge fan of his. I have yet to read other comments and reactions but I think that Stannis fans should be satisfied – he was an honourable badass in the finale!
    I really teared up at the funeral pyre scenes in CB and with Jon and Ygritte – nice work show, reminding us of Pyp and Grenn again.
    The scene between Melissandre and Jon, the look through the fire, was amazing on its own, but the implications it holds for the book readers – AMAZING!
    The fight between Brienne and The Hound was breathtaking, I did not mind that it was not in the book at all. Kudos to Rory McCann, he made me weep for The Hound. I now hope the Gravedigger theory turns out to be correct, I hope to see him again.
    Tyrion scenes were all great, watching Peter and Charles Dance was a treat. I noticed some changes and omissions from the books but I will not question it yet, D&D do know more about where the whole story is going so I will just sit back and enjoy.
    The lack of LS did not bother me at all, but I am one of those who won’t mind if she wouldn’t show up at all. In my opinion, it takes back from Catelyn’s storyline and lessens the impact of RW…

    I’m going to go through all of the thousands of your comments, sucks to be in Europe right about now :)

  589. Chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    I have a feeling there will be an appearance from Lady Stoneheart in the future. It’s really the only reason to have the set up of Dondarrion’s multiple resurrections, and his weariness of it on the show, which the show has done. It was just too early. Brienne and Pod still have to see a little more action before LS comes along. There was already so much packed into the finale. The (single!) episode already had Tyrion kill Tywin, the reveal of Drogon’s not-so-kid friendly escapade, the Child(ren) of the Forest, the Three-eyed Raven, Arya heading off to Braavos, Stannis’ defeat of the wildling army. The Lady Stoneheart reveal is too big of a deal, and too much of a total shock for it to be crammed in with all this other stuff. It would have been a horrible disservice to the material. As it is the episode was a little rushed–even with the extra 8 minutes.

  590. Rygar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    What I disliked: Was hoping for no zombies but we got them anyway. All that was missing was Leaf yelling “Fireball”! But I am So happy that the Cat didnt come back. I really hope she’s out for keeps. Sorry but Hinds as Mance is terrible. And I guess building the biggest fire the North has ever seen causes strokes because he certainly looks like one hit him in the jaw. Other than that, no complaints.

  591. Unbowed Unbent Unhodor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    On the rewatch i enjoy everything so much more! The highlight was probably brans scenes. Idc what people say, i liked the fireball thing. The whole thing reminded me on skyrim (which is great!)

    disappointed by all of tyrions scenes not because of tysha but because they felt rushed. I wish varys explained where theyre going! But i loved that hes coming on board with him. More screentime!

    I liked the brienne hound fight and aryas scenes. Interesting where they are going now. Riverlands in hopes of finding arya?

    Sad no ls but there was no mention of freys or bwb. Hoping its the premier for s5 that would be amaze!
    Didnt need the cersei jamie scene but like qyburn. Looking forward to that next year! Hes such as sicko!

    Loved that mance was back! Looking forward to the interesting wall story next season! Especially melisandre and jon!
    Was sam in this episode?
    Anyway i must admit this is one of my favourites. Amazing what a rewatch does

  592. Rygar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    I was drunk when I wrote this so sue me if I go too fast….

  593. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    …and that cheesy last line which may cause Unsullied to think that Bran will, literally, fly. If ever there was a time D&D SHOULD have divulged from the page, for sure that would have been a smart choice.

    While I agree with your assessment of the CotF scene, I disagree with the “cheesy line” bit. I would think that Bran, as a cripple, would be totally inspired by those words. This is a boy who climbed tall towers and jumped from ledge to ledge, fearless. Those are words of freedom for him.

  594. Kate
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    matt v.:
    I have to say this: to the book readers(1-2% who watches the show) i have great respect for you, but you are waaaay to critical! really it is annoying. So, D&D making this show for ALL people. Not just for book readers. Think as an Unsullied – this was an amazing season, full packed with a lot of characters and storylines.
    - You ask why no CH? Well the bran story this episode was so good it would be to much to digest to show CH too. To confusing…
    - Why no LS? thats a storyline thats told in many episodes, not just as an end. Its really better to introduce her in S5E1. She is to important to be cut.
    - Why no Tyrisha?After everything with tyrion this season you wanna throw the tyrisha story on unsullied?? CONFUSING. You probably read the books a million of times so you know her story and wanna hear it on show, but not a good idea for unsullied. Varys can tell him next season.
    - Why so many new storys which are not in books? well, you wanna 8-9 seasons? they invent new storylines to make an actionfull season and maybe more than 7 seasons, so it will not be as boring as some of the later books.

    THIS! Although, I do not agree with LS being so important, I think we can do without her. However, you are absolutely correct about the show being for everyone, not just book readers who wish to keep every sentence from the books in the show – that’s just not possible.

  595. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Watched the episode a 3rd time and those fight scenes still bother me. Those quick edits in the fight scenes are like salt in a dish. Done properly, they enhance what could be a bland scene and turn it into a feast for the eyes. However, if overused, they overpower the other ingredients and can ruin the dish. That’s what I feel happened on these Alex Graves fight scenes.

  596. Bard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    I’m not a book purist and if I try to look at the episode in the most neutral way possible, it’s one of the best episodes of this season and probably the show so far. But still, I have some serious beef with this one on the adaption front. Tysha, most of all. Not because it’s “not like in the booooks”, but the emotional impact of Tyrion’s and Jaime’s last scene as well as Tywin’s death suffers because of it. I can live without LS this year, but I still hope they don’t cut her completely (=Brienne will meet her in season 5).

  597. fire and blood
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    well all I can say is WOW,…I was really impressed with this episode….way way way way better than last years finale..one of the best! still doesn’t top season 1 but really damn close!!!

  598. Ludo
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    It’s incredible that so many people on the internet do not understand the Cersei / Jaime scene in episode 10. Jaime is in love with her, deeply in love with her. Cersei is not.

    She manipulates him again, like she tried to manipulate Margaery, Oberyn and Tywin in episode 5 (and there again people did not understand).

    All that Cersei wants at that point of the story is the death of Tyrion. She is not stupid and she knows that Jaime loves her brother. She has also understood that Tywin could spare Tyrion if Jaime was going to leave the kingsguard. It still applies after the trial by combat. The only way she has to avoid this situation is to offer something better to Jaime.

    “I will not marry Loras, I will stay in King’s Landing, and I want you to stay with me (= I want you to stay in the Kingsguard), look how I love you.”

    This is mere manipulation. She forbids Jaime to leave the Kingsguard because she knows how much her brother loves her.

    After that, Jaime can only choose between the love he has for his brother and the love he has for his sister. Cersei is confident that she will prefer the love he has for her.

    At the same time, she gets rid of the wedding with Loras.

    There is no romantic feelings at all in this situation. But she never predicted that Jaime could release Tyrion from his jail. This scenes are frakking brillant, a shame that so few people understand them !

    And then people say that D&D are not subtle enough. But when they are, nobody understands.

  599. johnnytata
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    wonder if this thread will reach 1000.

  600. renee f
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Victor,

    you read the books right? at what point is there not an “over crowding”…5000+ pages and not one single resolution to one single theory, character, war, dilemma, ext..If I finish the series of no end and the wolves remain a blip..I will hunt GRRM down myself..I just want one, just one..conclusion

  601. PatD
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    How about we agree that this should read:
    “But you know why the people who have read the books and are commenting on winteriscoming.net are starting to get pissed off?”

    That would be stating the obvious, but, sure, okay.

    I don’t have a problem with leaving the Tysha thing out. For the most part, Jaime is not the same man he was back then, and I don’t see it as necessary to the events of the escape. Tyrion already had plenty of reasons to hate his father and feel betrayed by Shae.

    I liked the depiction of Leaf. The show’s Children of the Forest reminded me more of the mythological Tuatha Dé Danann than it did of anything else. There’s so much authenticity to this show that it sometimes overshadows the fantasy element.

    I thought the fight between Brienne and The Hound was incredibly effective.

    I was as surprised as Jaime that they showed Cersei standing up to/blackmailing Tywin. That seemed to come out of left field at this point in the show, but the acting totally sold it.

    I liked that they showed Jon giving Ygritte a decent send off, and I liked the way they showed Stannis taking Jon’s input re: Mance.

    Over all, I found it a very satisfying season finale.

    I honestly don’t think LSH will be included in this version of the series.

  602. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    johnnytata,

    Could do, though it’s pretty unlikely. The forum discussion for the first Season 4 trailer got to about 850 I think (gotta be a record hasn’t it?), but with new articles coming in thick and fast now it probably won’t hit that mark.

  603. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Ludo,

    Thank you for understanding Cersei’s motivations. I’m not willing to say that she has no feelings for Jaime whatsoever, but it doesn’t really matter if she does, because they’re not strong enough to change her behavior. This scene between Jaime/Cersei perfectly connects to the one they shared in the Sept.

  604. Jenny
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe they killed of Jojen!!!!!!! Dislike. They stripped his character of everything that made him interesting and then off-ed him. I feel betrayed.

    Also I totally agree with the Tysha Butterfly Effect. I feel like they make Tyrion’s character a lot more likable in the show. Not that he isn’t in the books, but he doesn’t really feel a lot of remorse for killing Shae in the books and (as you pointed out) his reasons for killing Tywin are more to do with Tysha than Shae. Also, since Jaime doesn’t tell him about what they did to Tysha, Tyrion doesn’t tell him he killed Joffrey (even though it’s a lie, it definitely leads Jaime down an interesting path).

    Basically what we can all take from this season is that it’s definitely a different animal.

  605. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Yeah, I don’t know how he could go through the five stages of Gillan all in one scene. And I was a little annoyed that he didn’t have the horn.

  606. Ginevra
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Whenever those Facebook quizzes ask about what would be your favorite superpower, I’m all about the flying. And with Bran’s love of climbing to death-defying heights, I’m sure flying would appeal to him, as well. That line could have been clarified, though, if they’d only plugged Bran into the weirnetwork last night and let him fly. But, as it is, I don’t mind the ambiguity: enigmatic dialogue is part of the fun.

  607. Fat 'n' Balda
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II

    I have a feeling they will use Varys’ presence as a more tangible connection between Tyrion and Illyrio, rather than expecting the audience to remember that they have a previousre lationship

  608. Ilia Stark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Hated the scene by the cave to three eyed raven.Seriously,epic True Blood crap.What´s the hell cartoonish skeletons running like sprinters and the stupid fireballs?I laughed all the time. Couldn´t they make the wight at least A BIT scary?
    Also murdering Jojen! And Why on earth The Hound loses his ear when it should have been Brienne and in a totally different situation!
    I also think they robbed Tyrion of some important dialogue lines.There should have been Tysha and “Where do the whores go?”And Shay should have lied and begged before he strangles her.

    Epic Hound -Brienne fight though,i almost cried when he kicked her in the lady parts. And Awesome Ygritte funeral.

  609. Veltigar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    This episode started out so well :crying: I thought “well they are doing a good job given budget restraints and all that to show Jon” and then… the shit just started to fall apart

    1) Disappointed that we didn’t get a view of the Wildling army. All we saw where Stannis’s man. It’s as if he had a 100 000 men and Mance Rayder only a handful

    2) Mance commanding to lay down their arms… WTF?! The dude has a 100 000 warriors under his command and they all just telepatically understand that they need to lay down their arms? Wtf was up with that!

    3) Bran vs. the skeletons just looked ridiculous. The skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts were better than the load of crap we got in this episode. Now, normally I wouldn’t mind the cheeziness but… Can you imagine how much of the VFX budget they must have blown on that shitty sequence? I swear why couldn’t they just use real actors with make up like in season 1? That would have saved them a shit-ton of money which we could have used for more dragon and more direwolf action!!!! Or even better a better Bloodraven!

    4) The children were silly. I kinda feared they would be, it just isn’t something that works really well on screen. They should have cut that annoying little girl (and wtf was up with those fireballs? Felt like Spellbinder) and had Bran and company go into the cave by themselves (like Rust in True Detective).

    5) Not enough horror. The cave felt like a nice an airy place despite all the skulls. Compare that to True Detective, where the root fortress is creepy as fuck.

    6) BR was an utter disappointment. Pycelle looks more badass than this douche. Also, and I might be wrong but… DID THAT GUY HAVE TWO FUCKING EYES?

    7) The Hound vs. Brienne… They are just whiping their ass with the source material at this point.

    8) Jaime throwing away the white book and fucking Cersei in the White Tower. Again fuck you D&D

    9) Tyrion… WTF was up with that? How did he know that Tywin’s room was up there? Why did he even want to go and see his pops? There is no reason given in the show.

    10) Sybel was awful as usual. But this time it was all the writers/directors fault… WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T SHE SCREAM!!!! He was trying to kill her, but she was just like “must be… murdered… in complete silence”

    11) Arya going to Braavos was kind a rushed and it fit right in with the new series tradition of ending with something lame (though it was better than the crowdsurfing we got last season)

    12) Daenerys. The scenes just lacked weight imo. I can’t really put my finger on it. They were just off. I was expecting a real tearjerker from the interview with the actor who played the father of Hazzea. Luckily the dragon chaining sequence was very good.

    13) No LS

    14) The Mountain not screaming. The one time a bad guy get’s to die a horrible death they just pass on it. I also wished we would have gotten Qyburn line about opening the living to learn the secrets of death

    15) Tywin not knowing that C+J is a thing

    16) The whitewashing of Tyrion. This is usually a complaint I leave to others but this time… Did they have to make him killing Shae into self defense?

    Charley Bowdre: We work for Mr. Tunstall as regulators. We regulate any stealing of his property – we’re damn good too! Mr. Tunstall’s got a soft spot for runaways, derelicts, vagrant types. But you can’t be any geek off the street, gotta be handy with the steel, if you know what I mean, earn your keep and cast Mads Mikkelsen as Euron

  610. Daniellica
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    I haven’t been able to read all 350 (!!!) comments yet, but here are my thoughts:

    One of the hardest lessons you learn as a writer, especially in screenwriting, is that you must be able to cut things that you love. You can write the best dialogue, the best scene, the best character, but if it doesn’t fit, if it doesn’t work, if you don’t have the time or the budget or if it just detracts from what’s around it, you must be willing to cut it even if you think it is the best writing of your life.

    LS wasn’t left out of the finale because D&D don’t know a good scene when they see one, or to be dicks, or to tell bookreaders to frak off. It might have everything to do with the availability of Michelle Fairley. It may be that the whole subplot goes nowhere after all. It would also make an epic ending scene for the first episode of next season, to get everyone hyped up again. (Getting people buzzing is far more important at the beginning of a season than at the end, especially if you look at the history of their ratings.) But they did not “miss an opportunity.” It was a very deliberate choice, whatever the reasons for it.

    It is pretty hilarious that “everyone” who dislikes the episode is a whining book purist and “everyone” who loved the episode is an ass-kissing, D&D apologist. HEATHENS! ALL OF YOU!

    The Hound/Arya scene had me bawling, and while Rory’s performance was fucking brilliant, it was Arya’s reaction that brought it to a whole other level for me. Just…wow. The tensions of their entire relationship were wrapped up in that look–anger, hatred, resentment, and finally even love. Sandor admitting to Brienne that he is watching over her, not ransoming her, not holding her captive, but caring for her, it made the whole scene that much more difficult. I love Brienne; I adore the Hound; who do you root for in a fight like that?

    Anyway, I loved the episode as a whole. Being able to take a step back and appreciate something for what it is and not all the things you want it to be is so much more enjoyable, which is true for far more in life than TV shows or books.

  611. Stephen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    They do make some funny decisions.The Bran scene: Why not just have humans in make up as wights. It’s cheaper I presume and looks way better. Could have had more Ghost cgi instead and more giants when Stannis arrived. Giants seem to have just left.

  612. CinnLaFey
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Ludo,

    Ludo,

    Good Post!!! I think you nailed it very well.

    The part I would have liked is when Tryrion gives Jaime the list of Cersi’s lovers…. and he keeps repeating it in his mind. To me that was a pivotal point for Jaime and the next step in his growth. But we will see how they play it out.

  613. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    {M} {M} {M} {M}

    Fair lords,

    “The show and the books are two completely different entities, so stop complaining about the show and go read the books”

    For those who have said something along those lines, child please. Its the same goddamn story. People who are anticipating their favorite scenes or notable scenes to manifest on screen can and will feel a little bummed if they were omitted.

    Tyrion climbing up the Tower of the Hand would have been more baddass. And before you say it, yes I went back and read it right before breakfast.

    Obviously this didn’t happen on the show and “did not need to happen”. Still going to say it cus thats how my lords and I roll.

    Peace Out
    Mikken’s Mark
    {M}

  614. Dragons Can Not Be Tamed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    I have never posted here before, but I read the site every episode.

    In complaining about what was left out, I think a lot of folks are missing the big picture: the show is quickly running out of source material, and the more they include now, the less they have for next season. Book readers know that much of the upcoming source material is not as compelling and focuses less on the main characters that show viewers will expect to see, as opposed to the new secondary characters introduced in the Iron Islands and Dorne plotlines. The producers need to deal with that, otherwise season 5 could be a major letdown for viewers.

    A few things about this episode.

    1. The most important thing to me in this episode was the Hound not dying. He easily could have gone off that cliff, or died as Arya rode off, but he didn’t. That tells me pretty clearly that he has a future role to play in the series.

    2. The Cersei/Jaime scene makes a perfect set-up for season 5 for Jaime being sent off to Dorne. Wouldn’t surprise me if Bronn goes with him, since Bronn is such a fan favorite (he has some of the best lines in the entire series).

    3. Sad to see Arya’s dark side taking over so soon, and so completely. I would have liked to see more compassion from her, especially since we saw so much more emotion from the Hound in the series.

    4. Jon Snow/Red Lady shot has a lot of foreshadowing IMO, setting us up for material after ADwD.

    5. The absence of LS says a lot IMO about Brienne’s plotline next season, because without LS, what can she do?

    6. Surprised there wasn’t more of a battle at the wall, hard to imagine 100,000 wildings and giants giving up like that, but then again I am not the one facing budget constraints on a TV series where one season could easily spend more than entire Lord of the Rings movies if they didn’t make hard choices like that.

    As we look to next season, their main challenge will be to keep the main characters engaging through source material that has them doing less and less. There will be even more non-source material for Bran, Jaime, Bronn?, Daenerys, LS, etc etc, and a lot of surprises for book readers (which means a lot of complaining on these forums!)

  615. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    I’m with the people who looking forward to the show overtaking the books. Even if we get TWOW soon there won’t time to get too attached to anything.

    People get really stuck on certain parts and then can’t enjoy the show as a TV show. As its own thing. I get it because I would have been mad if they cut Arya and the Hound’s final farewell dialogue. That was more important to keep in than the Tysha stuff IMO.

    It’ll be freeing to have some fresh stuff to enjoy.

    Maybe I’m being too optimistic though. People will probably just make assumptions that whenever they don’t like something it must be not in the upcoming books.

  616. ColdStark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    A quote here from Alex Graves that in my mind pretty much confirms we’ll never see Stoneheart. Thats just my opinion, but the wording he uses about how the actress would be used tells me all I need to know.

    But no, they didn’t do it. It was never on the docket to do this season — ever.”
    Graves continued: “They [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] have such a challenge adapting the books into a really focused television experience. It’s very hard, it’s very complicated, it’s much harder then they’ve been given credit for, I think — and they do a brilliant job. But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like? It just didn’t end up being a part of what was going to happen this season. And finally one [more] reason: In case you didn’t notice, a lot happens this season … To add that in is something they opted out of. But what’s funny is that it was never going to be in the season, yet it took off on the Internet like it was going to happen.”

  617. Kate
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Are you all really so upset about Tysha? Why? We have not heard about her in the show at all. It would be too confusing for Unsullied, they have to remember a lot as it is. Besides, what would change? We all know that Tywin was a ruthless bastard with did not care about Tyrion. We saw Tyrion fall in love with a whore / Shae. The Tysha story wouldn’t add much to the story, IMO.

  618. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    {M} {M} {M} {M}

    Fair lords,

    “The show and the books are two completely different entities, so stop complaining about the show and go read the books”

    For those who have said something along those lines, child please. Its the same goddamn story. People who are anticipating their favorite scenes or notable scenes to manifest on screen can and will feel a little bummed if they were omitted.

    Tyrion climbing up the Tower of the Hand would have been more baddass. And before you say it, yes I went back and read it right before breakfast.

    Peace Out
    Mikken’s Mark
    {M}

  619. Carne
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Just a minor thing I noticed; the featured extra with the axe in Mance’s tent back in season 3 (who some speculated might be Styr) looks to be in Mance’s tent this episode as well, although with a beard.

  620. Denpos1
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I think LS will appear in first episode of next season. The episode will have numerous mentions of a new leader of BwB and murdered Freys. The last scene in the episode could be Bran connecting to Weirwood trees and he will see short seconds of various things to come in this season and after a few seconds of Thoros of Myr warning Beric Dondarrion that he will use his remaining life force and therefore can not be brought back to life by Thoros.

    The episode could then end with Freys getting captured and receiving their deserved sentence and reveal of who LS is.

    I don’t know, if they intend to do something along those lines then I will be fine with the lack of LS in s4.

  621. Joe Frost
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    First time I’ve ever been disappointed with an episode. I mean I still enjoyed it but I think all the changes from the books together like that really hit home together.
    Jojen dying seemed a little pointless and I don’t know why they felt the need to rush the Bran storyline ( The Coldhands meet up could have been his finale then the Bloodraven stuff next season) as he’s gonna have little to do next season and they’re gonna hve to moved beyond book territory early.
    The Hound.Brienne fight was annoying as it seemed they were forced together and I’m annoyed she bettered Sandor in a fight ( almost as annoyed as when they changed the book to her bettering Jaime in their fight). Brienne is good with a sword but she’s not in the other twos league. Her strength of character comes from her commitment to honour and her oaths. At the moment she just appears to be a walking attempt at the show trying to deflect blows of mysogeny. As much as I love Maisie Williams I though her acting in the Hound parting was poor. It made more sense in the book that she was that cold but in the show they’re gone with the buddy buddy thing so she should have been more conflicted.
    The Tyrion scene could have been a lot better too. The Tysha bit would have added to it but he could have at least told Jaime about Cersei being unfaitful to plant that seed even if they didn’t fall out. Jaime and Cersei are meant to be drifting apart at this point yet it seems that’s behind scehdule.
    Balon is STILL not dead so I’m hoping next season he’ll die early so we finally get the Kingsmoot. There’s a lot of new characters to introduce next season so I worry but the fact they’ve killed off over half the cast this season does give me some hope that next season we won’t lose huge swathes of characters (Dornish, the two good Greyjoys, Griff and Young Griff, Penny ,etc). All I can say is I’m glad Alex gRaves isn’t directing next year as I think is episodes this season have been below par and have made needless out of character changes. Also if this Missanei/Grey Worm love story continues , I’m gonna go nuts!

  622. croccifixio
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    some things to nitpick like LS, tysha, elf fireballs but i can stomach it BUT WTF?!!! SHAKY CAM?!! GOT?!!! SHAKY M#@W%@$@#%%@ CAMERA?!!!!

    shaky cam is for movies or shows that have stories so BORING that they will shake the #%#@%#@^$ camera to deceive the audience that the scene is exciting.

    MF SHAKY CAM.. F T S.

  623. Isabelle
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    So I re-watched it before I made any comment because yes, the initial reaction was “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. X and Y and Z didn’t make it in, that dialogue wasn’t exactlylikeitwasinthebookdowntotheellipses, me no likey!”

    Re-watch time made things clearer. I really, really liked the episode. Was it the best episode of the lot? No. Best thing on TV ever? Hell no. Did it invoke a sustained emotional reaction? No, not really. I wasn’t overwhelmed à la the Hannibal finale, which left me speechless, bawling and mutinous all at once (to this day, I haven’t been able to re-watch it). That was the reaction I wanted to have, and was frankly expecting. But there was some good stuff there. There were lots of memorable moments, some standouts, and I was left highly entertained and, yes, ready for re-watch number two. My father and brother, both unsullied, absolutely loved it, are still talking about Tyrion murdering Tywin on the toilet and can’t wait for season five. So, it did its job.

    What I liked:

    Jon’s scenes were the standout. This is what the show does best–fleshes out what’s left unseen or unspoken in the books and the scene where he cremated Ygritte was lovely: understated and moving. Great to see him reconnect with Mance and then Tormund, and I can’t wait to see what he and Stannis have to say to each other. You got the sense that Stannis has found his realm: no nonsense, just duty and lots of ugly truths to face, head-on. Kit’s been showing us what he can do all season and I am so, so happy that he had material to work with this year. Jon’s just too essential a character to be ignored or ill-served, and they finally did him justice.

    Nice to see Davos, too, and for Mance to refuse to bend the knee. Melisandre glimpsing Jon through the flames gave me chills.

    Parallels between Jon and Dany continue to be made: in episode 9, the last image was of Jon heading off into the distance surrounded by white and in episode 10, he said farewell to his (fiery) love, and the last shot is of him not able to contain his grief. In episode 10, Dany bade farewell to her dragons and headed back to the city, turning her head at the last second, overcome with emotion. When she headed up the stairs, she was surrounded by white. This time last year we were talking about the obvious parallels between them from the season three finale, so I’m insanely curious what next year will bring!

    I liked that they left off the subtitles when the father shows his daughter’s remains to Dany. Missandei translating “my girl…my little girl” as the camera focused on the child’s bones made it all the more heartbreaking. That poor father. Emilia and Ian did a great job conveying their sadness, and props to the actor who played the grieving father.

    Adored the scene between Cersei and Tywin. I think he’s just started to get what a hellion he’s raised.

    RIP Jojen. I was half expecting him to tell Meera that this was the day he died. Nice, dreadfully tragic touch with having Meera kill Jojen to spare him from a more painful death. The reflection of the incoming fire grenade in his eye was beautiful.

    Neither Brienne nor Sandor interest me much, but that fight scene was well done. Gritty, brutal, as dirty (literally) as it needed to be. Poor Brienne, turning up to save Arya and then having to face not being welcome. Rory McCann was riveting, especially in his last scene, pleading as gruffly as possible.

    And how lucky are we that Maisie Williams was cast? She continues to own the screen–such conviction and poise. The shot of her on horseback looking over the harbour might be my favourite from the episode. Give this girl a (decent) action film pronto.

    Shot of Tyrion’s face next to Shae’s upside-down corpse was haunting. Was that a tear falling down Tyrion’s face? Great acting.

    What could have been improved:

    Tyrion and Jaime–way too abrupt. I get that they want Tyrion to leave with his relationship with Jaime intact, but the whole escape scene just felt forced, and I would have liked a mention of Tysha. There was space for it, and it would have made Tyrion’s emotional ruin complete. This scene left me wanting because it was more transitional than significant.

    (But yay! A proper hug in this show for once!!!)

    Tyrion and Tywin–I liked that it was a throw-back to Tywin courting the Mountain Clansmen in Season One, when he turned up the schmoozing to 10 and showed us Courtly Tywin, not Terrifyingly Displeased Dad Tywin. If Tyrion wasn’t so shattered, it might have actually worked. Alas, Tywin’s fooling no one at this point. I just wish there was a bit more anger on both Tyrion and Tywin’s part, and yes, some mention of Tyrion’s first marriage. Tyrion and Tywin’s troubles are about much more than Shae and I don’t think we got enough of a sense that this was about a lifetime of sorrow, that this was how it had to end.

    I still think Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance next season–as people have said, there’s been lots of set-up this season for a Catelyn revival. The Hibberd article’s not giving me much hope, though.

    I’m really quite excited to see what they do next year. Yep, it’ll be really bizarre to watch ‘blindly’ from now on (and my family is just bloody smug about that. Karma : ) ) but if it means we get to find out what happens sooner, bring it on. We’re all going to read the books anyway, and they’ll be fabulous.

    I’d give this episode an 8/10. Some beautifully emotional moments, some scenes that fell a little flat. Episode 8 remains the standout of the season because my god did that pack an emotional punch. Bring on Season Five and Jon vs Stannis!

  624. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    who knows where Brienne’s storyline is heading now…hopefully toward the BwB, where former vows will truly be tested…

    I’m very curious about what they’re going to do with Brienne now. I would rather she doesn’t run into LS but no matter what her vows have to be tested. I think it was too easy for Brienne to pass judgement on Jaime because she’d never been in situations where there were no good options and that to keep one vow you had to break another. Like Jaime said “there’s so many vows, how can you keep them all straight?” Since she made the vow to Cat she’s been challenged over and over again and it’s only going to get worse. I love Brienne but her view of the world and honor is so incredibly naive. I desperately want her to be right and to remain a good and honorable person but GRRM leaves nothing and noone pure in his story. Insofar as LS is a character that tests Brienne I can accept her but I really never liked LS and would be fine if they left her out. I guess if they don’t include LS then we’ll know she wasn’t important in the grand scheme of things after all.

    Same with the Tysha story….they left it out because it wasn’t all that important in the long run. UNLESS they choose to reveal it a different way….say via Varys who seems to know everything. Now that Varys is traveling with Tyrion, who knows what they’ll talk about and what will be revealed? I’m very much looking forward to seeing those two play off of one another.

  625. Joe Frost
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    First time I’ve ever been disappointed with an episode. I mean I still enjoyed it but I think all the changes from the books together like that really hit home together.
    Jojen dying seemed a little pointless and I don’t know why they felt the need to rush the Bran storyline ( The Coldhands meet up could have been his finale then the Bloodraven stuff next season) as he’s gonna have little to do next season and they’re gonna have to moved beyond book territory early.
    The Hound/Brienne fight was annoying as it seemed they were forced together and I’m annoyed she bettered Sandor in a fight ( almost as annoyed as when they changed the book to her bettering Jaime in their fight). Brienne is good with a sword but she’s not in the other twos league. Her strength of character comes from her commitment to honour and her oaths. At the moment she just appears to be a walking attempt at the show trying to deflect blows of mysogeny. As much as I love Maisie Williams I though her acting in the Hound parting was poor. It made more sense in the book that she was that cold but in the show they’re gone with the buddy buddy thing so she should have been more conflicted.
    The Tyrion scene could have been a lot better too. The Tysha bit would have added to it but he could have at least told Jaime about Cersei being unfaitful to plant that seed even if they didn’t fall out. Jaime and Cersei are meant to be drifting apart at this point yet it seems that’s behind scehdule.
    Balon is STILL not dead so I’m hoping next season he’ll die early so we finally get the Kingsmoot. There’s a lot of new characters to introduce next season so I worry but the fact they’ve killed off over half the cast this season does give me some hope that next season we won’t lose huge swathes of characters (Dornish, the two good Greyjoys, Griff and Young Griff, Penny ,etc).
    LS not this season isn’t a massive blow as thinkg it’s better to commit more tie to next season. If she’s out altogether then I don’t see how the Brienne/Jaime story can go on without major changes.
    All I can say is I’m glad Alex Graves isn’t directing next year as I think is episodes this season have been below par and have made needless out of character changes. Also if this Missanei/Grey Worm love story continues , I’m gonna go nuts!

  626. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I agree. I didn’t enjoy this episode as much as I thought I would. I think it was partly because 1) I knew what was going to happen which is no one’s fault but my own, 2) that it did differ significantly from the books (although the other things they added in, I loved, like the Brienne and Hound fight), and 3) they hyped it too much. I honestly don’t think this was their best script or their best episode. Maybe they were hyping it for the Emmy’s but it hurt them with viewers like me. And I say this as a person who LOVES this show and thinks D&D have done an outstanding work on the adaptation.

    I want to be unsullied so I don’t go into it with so many biases. Season 5 can’t come soon enough.

  627. jomammagon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    I can overlook most of the awkward things about the episode (like fireball-slinging cotf), or Jon somehow sneaking out of castle black with Ygritte’s body and nobody noticing/caring, or Brienne beating The Hound. Personally I don’t really even care about LS. However leaving out the Tysha conversation is inexcusable. It makes no sense and it completely changes where Tyrion and Jamie leave off.

  628. Isabelle
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: And in terms of the Tysha issue, I’m less concerned that they didn’t show it (I think there are ways of reintegrating and reemphasizing that back story in S5), I’m bothered by how convenient and rushed the escape felt. We didn’t see Tyrion in his cell until the escape…Because S9 was devoted to The Wall, emphasizing Tyrion’s plight and really bringing a note of bitterness, defeat, and acceptance of his fate would have done a lot of tonal work in setting up the importance of the escape.

    Yes, this. It felt a bit like “hey there Tyrion, time to bust out. Let’s hug. No, not that way, what are you–oh. Bye Shae. Bye Tywin.” Way too fast. Peter Dinklage et al sold what they had to great effect, but it was still very abrupt.

    My what-I-liked-what-I-didn’t post isn’t showing up : (

  629. Dragons Can Not Be Tamed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Tatters:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    “Worst piece of writing” Stop with the nerd rage already.
    Yeah, because Peter Dinklage didnt win an emmy the last time about Tysha… facepalm.
    You are only saying this because of your showpurism.
    Tysha is the major recurring trauma about Tyrion.

    actually the major recurring trauma about Tyrion was his relationship with his father Tywin, and its not even close. Tysha is just one part of that, and in the show, it was a relatively small part… even before last night’s episode.

  630. Rygar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    What’s funny is that the same people complaining about the lack of Tysha also complained about Tyrions “where do whores go” tirade in Dance. D&D just eliminated the worst part of Dance. Things are looking promising.

  631. Isabelle
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    There it is! Thanks! : )

  632. theamir
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    matt v.:
    I have to say this: to the book readers(1-2% who watches the show) i have great respect for you, but you are waaaay to critical! really it is annoying. So, D&D making this show for ALL people. Not just for book readers. Think as an Unsullied – this was an amazing season, full packed with a lot of characters and storylines.
    - You ask why no CH? Well the bran story this episode was so good it would be to much to digest to show CH too. To confusing…
    - Why no LS? thats a storyline thats told in many episodes, not just as an end. Its really better to introduce her in S5E1. She is to important to be cut.
    - Why no Tyrisha?After everything with tyrion this season you wanna throw the tyrisha story on unsullied?? CONFUSING. You probably read the books a million of times so you know her story and wanna hear it on show, but not a good idea for unsullied. Varys can tell him next season.
    - Why so many new storys which are not in books? well, you wanna 8-9 seasons? they invent new storylines to make an actionfull season and maybe more than 7 seasons, so it will not be as boring as some of the later books.

    Pulling stats out of your ass? Where do you get only 1-2% of the people who watch the show are book readers? I’m PRETTY sure that if the books hadn’t been so popular, you non-book readers (25% of the fanbase, see? I can make up numbers too) would never have a GOT to fawn over in the first place. Try picking up a book instead.

  633. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Ludo,

    Excellent summation of that scene. The whole time I was talking to the TV, “Jaime, she’s using you…she’s using you! Wake up you idiot!” It made me uncomfortable because I knew she was playing him and I think that’s what D&D wanted to communicate. Like you said, she wants to ensure that he’s loyal to her, that he stays in KL or at least does her bidding and not their father’s, and now that she’s alienated her father to such a degree, she felt she needed Jaime to help protect her because her father wouldn’t any longer.

  634. Maginor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    I liked how they told us that town was Saltpans without stating it, just by having people shoveling salt. Completely unnecessary, but it adds detail.

    Also, is that the first time anybody has been called “(monarch) of the andals, the rhoynar and the first men” on the show? I think previously they have left out the rhoynar.

    And the mention of Bloodravens “a thousand eyes and one” was good even though the fireballs were cheesy.

  635. TheNorthRemembers
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    House Nieder,

    I saw that! Putting up any generic picture would have been better, instead of a front page shot of a deceased character with a headline that screams “Hey! This lady is supposed to be back! That one, up there! Oh, yeah, and [spoiler].”

  636. Maxwell James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Ludo,
    NousWanderer,

    I disagree that the Jaime/Cersei scene was anywhere near coherent. It was one of the major weaknesses of this episode. And their relationship was one of the major weaknesses of the season.

    Look: if Cersei’s wants to manipulate Jaime into supporting her goals, then everything she’s done this season is ass-backwards.

    She wants Tyrion dead, and thinks Jaime can help her with that. Then why distance herself from him prior to the trial? If she were so cunning, that’s exactly when she would seek to seduce him, especially after he has been long frustrated. She somehow has the good sense to try to gain Oberyn’s good graces – why not her brother’s?

    She wants out of the marriage with Loras, and threatens to out herself and Jaime in order to do that. But that also makes no sense at this juncture, when her father is on the cusp of giving her Tyrion’s head. This is leaving aside the strategic dumbness of outing themselves at a point when both Lannister gold and force of arms is waning significantly.

    I’ll note in passing that nothing Cersei does this season affects Jaime’s decisions in the slightest. Some manipulator.

    Prior to this season, I thought Cersei was by far the most improved character compared to the books. She’s been smarter, colder, scarier, and yet more human and sympathetic all at once (Shae, who also acted irrationally in this episode and season, is a distant second). The writers put a lot of work into making her a compelling figure. They squandered most of that work this year.

    There’s a lot I still like about GoT, but they fucked up this storyline significantly. That’s on their own terms, not in comparison to the books.

  637. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    I’m very curious about what they’re going to do with Brienne now.

    As much as I enjoy debating the pros and cons of an LS appearance and relevance, I also want to see how Brienne’s journey turns and how her “vows” are tested. Her unfortunately loaded Lannister association should be a struggle for her. Having LS in the show would make that conundrum absolutely clear but I wouldn’t be surprised if they go another (hopefully intriguing) direction. S5 is very late for an LS appearance and given the lack of Tysha and Coldhands to move the story along, I am not anticipating it anymore.

    I’m surprised at my reaction to the episode. I am not bothered by the lack of LS, but I am highly critical of the visual treatment of the wights/CotF/BR and the tame treatment of the dragon chaining. I refuse to believe that R & V would go that easily. I wanted some resistance…but the catacombs were cool.

  638. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    And this is why I think that Jaime was robbed a bit. Not only do I wish we had a Cersei/Tyrion scene to emphasize Tyrion’s doom as well as Cersei’s bitter insanity, but I wish we received greater emphasis on Jaime’s choice. The Cersei/Jaime scene – if positioned between the hypothetical Tyrion/Cersei scene and Tyrion’s escape – would only take on greater meaning in that case.

    Jaime has changed. Jaime hates the fact that to service his unbidden love for Cersei, he must dishonor himself again, and again, and again. When Cersei demands that he murder his own brother, Jaime snaps – that’s what explains the content of the Sept scene. It’s a revolt against bondage.

    So when Cersei suddenly presents Jaime with an outpouring of affection (because she needs him, so she manipulates him), the Jaime receiving this outpouring should be aware that something is up. He ultimately makes the choice to save Tyrion anyway, but having him appear cognizant of Cersei’s machinations at the same time that he, physically, is helpless against them (due to his emotional baggage) would have been great.

    And then, to give the escape far more resonance, imagine Jaime steeling himself to break Tyrion out. He’s unsure if he can fight, so he tests the weight of his sword in his good hand. He descends the stairs. He’s confronted by one of the guards, but he momentarily plays it off before killing one of them. He has to fight the other, and after a struggle, he wins. Meanwhile, Tyrion is hearing all of this happen outside the cell – and he has no idea what it means. We slowly track in on both the door and Tyrion on the bench in alternating shots. And then the sounds stop. And the music stops. And Jaime opens the door, and we’re off. After this, just give Jaime and Tyrion a bit more damn time to talk — either by detaining Jaime while Tyrion takes a detour, or by giving more time to Jaime’s task of filling Tyrion in on what’s going on. The Tysha stuff isn’t necessary, but rounding out the exchange would have been icing on the cake.

    All of this would have:

    1) given Tyrion and Cersei an excellent send-off,
    2) invoked a fresher sense of doom (since we haven’t even seen Tyrion since the last shot of episode 8),
    3) more meaningfully established the connections between Cersei’s behavior toward Jaime throughout the season, her behavior toward him in this episode’s manipulation scene, and Jaime’s choice to “do what’s right” and save his brother (remember, this all ties back to Jaime’s belief that he can be the kind of man who fills that page with good deeds, and his very real, and very chosen love for his brother, in contrast to the almost cosmically unbidden love he has for his sister)
    4) given some degree of pathos to the results of Jaime training with Bronn throughout the season (he struggles with some unnamed guards, but the stairwell fight takes on resonance because Jaime is effectively starting from ground zero, and the fight to save his brother becomes a fight to be the man he wants to be),
    5) made the escape feel earned, rather than convenient,
    6) given time for the final conversation between Jaime and Tyrion to introduce new complications, even without the Tysha material.

  639. NousWanderer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I read it differently than you do. I think Cersei’s manipulation was a failure, but that’s exactly the point. Not only is she hoping to shore up an ally for the months ahead, but she’s trying – and failing – to make Jaime choose her. This would have made even more sense if we had an additional scene where Cersei was a bit unhinged prior to the one she shared with Jaime, and I think the optimal place for this scene would be a Tyrion/Cersei scene, with her outside the cell (see the post I made in response to Ms. D. Ranged in AZ).

    The meaning – to Jaime – of Cersei’s attempt and failure to manipulate him was inadequately emphasized not because the scene with Cersei was incoherent, but because Jaime’s choice to save Tyrion was already set in stone in a way that the show failed to depict (but had an opportunity to depict in the moments immediately prior to him busting into the cell). Another way of putting this is that I’d have preferred that we spend time with Jaime’s POV before the escape attempt. Jaime’s decision to act was a moment of convergence for multiple threads, and it was robbed of its gravity simply because it wasn’t depicted.

    This is why the escape felt a bit convenient to many, and perhaps why you felt the Cersei/Jaime scene was out of place.

  640. GaiusB
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    I think it was very good episode. Something like 9/10. It would be 10/10 if they did not failed to do properly most important scene in the episode – Tyrion murders. Without him mentaly losing it after the truth about Tysha his actions were much less powerfull or even logical.

    I hope a teory about jojenpaste is not right, because with him dead, i could totaly see how D+D would create meerapaste next season….

    No LS, it is sort of hilarious how some people are ruining their enjoyment of seasons finales by expecting her. I still think we will get her, i think they are pushing her back primary because Jamie will not survive an encounter with her.

  641. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    What’s funny is that the same people complaining about the lack of Tysha also complained about Tyrions “where do whores go” tirade in Dance.D&D just eliminated the worst part of Dance.Things are looking promising.

    Couldn’t agree more. Tyrion went from one of my favorite characters in the first 3 books to a character I borderline hated in ADWD. Although he got a little better at the end of the book. I’m glad they’re toning it down for the show so I can still like him. Peter Dinklage is simply too charismatic and likeable to get stuck playing an annoying whiner for a whole season.

  642. James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    Overall this was my favorite episode of all 4 seasons, I thought it was a masterpiece, I went in wanting to see Stoneheart but not expecting it and I was suprised to be not disappointed by not seeing her this episode, probably because this episode was just so good. Heres the things i liked best..

    - Stannis arrival was perfect, him appearing with Davos through the smoke like a BOSS!!

    - Danaerys reaction to discovering Drogon had killed a litte girl and then chaining up Viserion and Rhaegal in the crypts was perfectly executed and also emotional but so glad to see those two dragons get more screen time.

    - The wights attacking Bran & Co and the children of the forrest, whats this about bad CGI during that scene? I thought it was amazing, certainly movie quality. And glad to see the introduction to more of a fantasy element in the show. Jojens death was tough to watch too.

    - Melisandre gazing at Jon through the flames gave a perfect depiction at there relationship to come and gave me the chills! Wouldve loved to have seen Mel take down the wargs owl or Orells eagle.

    - The Hound vs Brienne was incredable and they did a really good job creating the tension between both sides before the fight broke out, acting was superb during that whole scene. (Speaking of actng, Lena Heady deserves an emmy for her acting this episode)

    - Tyrions escape, the farwell with Jaime, murdering Shae, and killing Tywin was all phenomonal, I was expecting some final words between Shae and Tyrion but in the end i didnt think it was needed. The scene where Varys decided not to go back to the red keep was also really great.

    - The final scene with Arya sailing to Bravos wouldnt of been a scene i would choose to close out this season but i thought it was excecuted brilliantly and worked really well with the musical score.

    Honestly cant find any fault with this episode, Yea it wouldve been great to see Stoneheart but if it meant having her in and not seeing her again until episode 3 or 4 of next season it was better to leave her out. I think there just trying to work out ways to expand her storyline and make her role more important in the overall plot. I think the last scene of next seasons first episode would be a great introduction her her.

  643. matt v.
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    theamir,

    LOL dont be so sensitive. I didnt mean something bad with that. All my friends are unsullied. And thats maybe over 20 of them who watch the show. I read the books btw. I said that because not just in US there are people watching it, its popular in the whole world. The books arent available everywhere. And btw i find out about the books because of the show…

  644. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Couldn’t agree more.Tyrion went from one of my favorite characters in the first 3 books to a character I borderline hated in ADWD.

    Tyrion and Jorah are going to be so much fun together, moping and drinking and growling!

  645. Dogmayor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Brienne beating the Hound…what a joke.

  646. Maxwell James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: Tyrion went from one of my favorite characters in the first 3 books to a character I borderline hated in ADWD

    You’re supposed to hate Tyrion in ADWD. He’s lost in self-pity and remorse for 2/3 of the book. And even though Book Shae is a paper-thin character, he’s done something monstrous to a woman he supposedly loved.

    That should have consequences on the show as well – even more so since their relationship was presented as being far more genuine. While I’ve criticized the Cersei-Jaime scene, nothing in this last episode bothered me more than how they handled Tyrion’s murder of Shae.

  647. Maxwell James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I completely agree that they should have placed much more weight on Jaime’s decision, and your suggestions would have helped a lot. In the books that is managed by his decision to force Varys’ hand. They decided to streamline that decision in the show, another decision that I don’t think worked.

    The showrunners seemed to have thought that they could portray Jaime as being on the fence about rescuing Tyrion, so his decision to act in the end would have weight. That also didn’t come through very well. As I mentioned upthread, they also seem to have eliminated Varys’ agency in the murders, making him more of a white hat. I’m not wild about that decision either.

    Sorry to sound so negative – I’ve defended this show a lot, including last week when a ton of other readers were piling it on – but other than the Arya-Hound-Brienne sequence, this episode really didn’t work for me. And since it’s such a climactic and pivotal part of the books, that is pretty disappointing.

  648. DoubleA012
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Well after reading a lot of comments, I haven’t seems this mentioned: Am I the only one who noticed that JS is not the 998th Lord Commander of the Nights watch yet? I’m glad they didn’t rush it into the finale, b/c It’s important that Sam helps him. But still, really, they left a lot of good things and one liners out that could of been added had they not added so much pointless stuff through the season (alla Jamie and Cersie, I thought by this point he was slowly starting to see her for what she really is). But I completely understand Stoneheary for casting and money reasons, same w/ changes to Grenn, Pyp and Jojen, who all seem destined for nothing more of importance in the books anyways. Interested to see how the battle between Hound and Brienne sets up the meeting w/ the Grave Digger. The thing about tyrion a real love you could see getting cut. This show is way to complicated for people who have never picked up a book. I know plenty of people, smart people, who I’ve the show but half the meanings and things that happen are missed or misunderstood. People saw Shae, they saw her and Tyrion together for 3 seasons, it makes since that they just went w/ her (however it may interrupt his mental state going forth, there are bigger things than Tyrion reflecting on his whores), however, the one thing that kinda really pisses me off is how they didn’t have Tyrion say I guess Tywin doesn’t really shit gold afterall. How god damn hard is one line! (Maybe they wanted it to be a dramatic scene and not add humor, but that line fits Tyrion to a T! My two sense, if anyone cares. Wanted JS as The Lord Commander but it will be fine including it next year…I guess

  649. gianoshoes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Thought the Arya ending scene was really powerful, so excited. Loved everything about it;the ship captain, her face, her looking at Winterfell and then running toward the direction of Bravos. I know it wasn’t the final scene many book readers were hoping for, but I loved it and hope those who wanted else were able to really enjoy that scene. And the music!

  650. Salty Dornishman
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Jeez, you guys make it seem as if Tysha will never be mentioned again. You forget that Varys, spymaster extraordinaire, is riding with Tyrion for a long journey across the Narrow Sea… plenty of time for him to tell Tyrion the story about Tysha. And then Tyrion loses his shit right there on the boat.

    It’s certainly plausible that Varys could, and does, know about Tysha (even if he doesn’t know specifically where whores go…)

  651. Stannis
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    I’ve been following the comment sections of this site but after the last episode I just can’t stand all the whiners. Do you know how pathetic you sound? ‘They didn’t include LS’ or ‘They didn’t talk about Tysha’ or ‘Why did Littlefinger said only your sister instead of only Cat’ or ‘OMG, Jaime raped Cersei’, all season long. Jesus!! You sound just like some spoiled brat who didn’t get his birthday present in time. Has any of you written something worth publishing? Does any of you work on a record breaking TV show? Hmm… I guess not.

    You should thank D&D that we even have a show in the first place. Their writing on the show is, with minor exceptions, excellent and I’m pleased about most of the decisions they made on the show (considering the budget constraints, the logistics involved in filming in all those locations, the huge cast and so on). The actors are great, the directing is great, and all the production is just oustanting.

    Then, why so much negativity? Just because you didn’t get the final scene you thought you would get? Ridiculous. I guess today’s audience just wants shock for shock value and doesn’t have the patience to watch a story unfold.

    Enjoy the show. Enjoy the books and hope that TWOW is released before the airing of season 5.

  652. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    BranSnow,

    It’s very hard to see, but I assure you that Leaf isn’t throwing fireballs. She/He is throwing firebombs, you can see one in her/his hand.

  653. Strepsi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    Agree.

    As far as book fans go, the Twilight Twihards are no longer the most insane shriekers on the internet.

  654. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    WHY WAS THE THYSA STORY CUT OUT?
    It is the most annoying difference in the show from the source material, and it is also stupid, coward, bad writing, and even dramaturgically totally illogical (why tell the first version of the story in season 1 then?). It is also completely senseless this way. For God’s sake, Shae _is_ a lying, treacherous whore, and Tyrion just had killed her for it, and Thysa _wasn’t_, that’s the whole f*cking point! Tywin knows in the book that Thysa was no whore, he is directly _provoking_ Tyrion with the word. Because he is a shameless asshole. In this case, he was just telling the truth… and Tyrion seems to be a pitiful murderer,with a hurted ego, instead of the dark, but suffering and deeply shaken guy vengeancing his father for his most horrible crime.
    Without the Thysa story the whole Jaime/Tyrion relationship is also destroyed. For god’s sake, Jaime was so caring and loving with Tyrion for his entire life because he was feeling guilty because of Thysa,not because he is a good man (he is not). The whole change is so stupid that I really can’t understand the reasons for it.

  655. chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    In the casting/logistics department, I took note of the fact that Brynden Rivers’ first appearance was distant and obscured by roots, makeup and a beard.
    Seems to me that this opens up endless casting opportunities for next time.
    Just a thought.

  656. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That only means D&D are coward writers, ergo bad writers, because they are afraid to make Tyrion the dark guy he becomes (and partly was from the beginning),and the only reason is they do not want to lose viewers… The “where do whores go” is essential part of Tyrion’s character. And actually show Tyrion just have became really pitiful: he in the end mainly kills his father for jealousy, it is ridiculous.

  657. Jasonrp
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    After the fireballs I was hoping for the Mario dungeon theme when they went in the cave.

  658. Negar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    I did not like this episode. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a book purist and I had loved every second of this season. But this episode just didn’t do it for me. Things I did not like :
    1. Cersie is the one calling Jaime a fool for wanting to marry her. They changed the whole relationship with that one scene. That just wasn’t Cersie !

    2. Why would Tyrion care about Shae? The whore who betrayed her? They should’ve made Tyrion angry, and then send him off to kill Tywin. It just didn’t feel right to me. And why 2 arrows? That line that Tyrion says in the books, die fast something, I loved that sentence. I wish they wouldn’t have changed it.

    3. Why did they change the way Mance treats his wife? he loved her and respected her. They should have shown how happy he was with his wife.

    Overall, I’m just left here gasping for more, and I know they will never be anymore ! Maybe few decades later they make a series out of the books with 20 episodes a season and I can get all the things that I wanted from this show :(

    Thank you the producers for this great season. Cannot wait for next season.

  659. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Joe Frost,

    Lord Frost of Ice City,

    I had the same thoughts and reactions to every plot you address. (Except for Balon, not disagreeing I just think they can save his stuff because it will mesh with the rest of the Greyjoy additions.)

    That was a good call on Coldhands and Brans storyline. Meeting with this mysterious northern figure riding an elk could have been cool closure for Bran this season. Then they could have stretched out the rest of Bran’s storyline next year. But they have something else planned for Bran next season so we will see.

    Enjoyed your thoughts,
    Mikken’s Mark
    {M}

  660. chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Interestingly enough, that overhead shot of Stannis’ army attacking the wildlings was almost exactly what I hoped to see back in The Battle Of The Fist… a great mob of Black Brothers on horseback in full retreat through the snow and trying to punch through the invading mob of wights.
    Ah, well.
    Yeah, LS was a letdown, but my expectations were forcibly adjusted at the beginning of season three with the deletion of that major story development.
    Oh, and not so sure about Varys and Tyrion being on the same ship. Wasn’t Tyrion supposed to be conspicuously alone and with no support besides Illyrio on his arrival in Pentos?

  661. Kate
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Happy Hollyoak,

    The fireballs were ok, but the Child and the inside of the weirwood were simply awful. Damp and gloomy both, no magic there whatsoever. Shouldn’t at least the roots of the tree be white?
    Also, why are they making all characters white? Dark dappled skin and cat’s eyes vs a British girl. Big disappointment.

  662. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Kate,

    Lady Kate,

    the child looked like a wildling Waif to me. You can tell they tried with the flower pot hair dew but Im saying she should have been tiny and didnt need to be dressed in fur.

    {M}

  663. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Kate,

    the cat eyes too, she looked too plain

  664. 0KEN0
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Stannis:
    I’ve been following the comment sections of this site but after the last episode I just can’t stand all the whiners. Do you know how pathetic you sound? ‘They didn’t include LS’ or ‘They didn’t talk about Tysha’ or ‘Why did Littlefinger said only your sister instead of only Cat’ or ‘OMG, Jaime raped Cersei’, all season long. Jesus!! You sound just like some spoiled brat who didn’t get his birthday present in time. Has any of you written something worth publishing? Does any of you work on a record breaking TV show? Hmm… I guess not.

    You should thank D&D that we even have a show in the first place. Their writing on the show is, with minor exceptions, excellent and I’m pleased about most of the decisions they made on the show (considering the budget constraints, the logistics involved in filming in all those locations, the huge cast and so on). The actors are great, the directing is great, and all the production is just oustanting.

    Then, why so much negativity? Just because you didn’t get the final scene you thought you would get? Ridiculous. I guess today’s audience just wants shock for shock value and doesn’t have the patience to watch a story unfold.

    Enjoy the show. Enjoy the books and hope that TWOW is released before the airing of season 5.

    Couldn’t agree more. A small but vocal portion of this fandom is ruining the fun of talking about this show in these comment sections.

    Like I said before, ever since “bark gate” way back when, I knew we had a ton of irrational cry babies hanging out here. It’s the exact reason I a) don’t post here nearly as much as I once did, and b) just skim the comments section. It’s sad and infuriating to watch people go off on the show because they didn’t get their way.

    But it’s the hyperbole that kills me the most. People saying stuff like “this is basically just shit fan fiction now”, “this was the worst episode ever”, etc. Like, if you seriously believe those statements, you’re so incapable to seeing the positive aspects of this show it’s astounding!

  665. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I am highly critical of the visual treatment of the wights/CotF/BR and the tame treatment of the dragon chaining.

    Me too! I don’t understand why they went with VFX skeletons (far too Pirates of the Caribbean for my tastes and the quality not even as good) and not live actors as zombies. And I was thinking the same thing with the dragons, they’re not completely stupid…surely they weren’t distracted by the food that they didn’t notice her putting the collars on them! I kept thinking, they’re gonna fight her, they’ll lash out but no, they didn’t. I can’t remember, but they did fight it in the books and some unsullied got crisped, right?

    I felt the same about Bloodraven (or the Three-eyed Raven as they seem to be calling him in the show) He just looked like an old man sitting in the middle of the roots. Maybe I need to re-watch it and look more closely. The description in the books is very specific and the guy is supposed to look like he is part of the tree, with roots going into and then out of his body and that just wasn’t communicated here IMO. I liked the dialogue with Bran(taken from the book too) but D&D didn’t have to do much with that. I did like The Child (aka Leaf?). They nominated this ep for prosthetic make-up but I just don’t think it was that awesome. ‘

    Also, the Tyrion thing was too rushed and I didn’t like the fact that he didn’t have a convo with Shae at all and he didn’t seem angry enough with Tywin. Not Dinklage’s fault, that was probably the Director and Producers’ decision.

    There were other aspects of the show that I loved so my review won’t be all negative but it wasn’t what I expected. Maybe my expectations have been too high IDK. I didn’t want to go out of the season all negative but I am. This is the first episode that I’ve felt that way about and I kind of feel like a jerk because Season 4 has been the best season yet. Rationally I know they’re working miracles but I can’t help but feel disappointed. Maybe I need a break to get over my selfishness and childishness…oh wait, I have a year to do that! LOL

  666. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Yeah you right strepsi throat. You in our kingdom now.

    Ruh-R-R-R-Ruh-Ruh-Ruh-Ruh Reek Reek Reek REEK!!

    Strepsi:
    Stannis,

    Agree.

    As far as book fans go, the Twilight Twihards are no longer the most insane shriekers on the internet.

  667. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Dear Benioff and Weiss,

    Thank you for not introducing Lady Stoneheart this season, and please keep her out of the show entirely.

    Best,
    More book fans than it seems

  668. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    DanielHimalia,

    matt v.,

    Actually bookreaders are more like 30% of the shows viewership.

    The viewers of this show can be divided into four types, the casual uninformed typical TV audience, the GoT fanboys, the ASOIAF fanboys, and the more mature sophisticated TV audience. The latter two has similar complaints, and you can see that if you read reviews by someone like Andy Greenwald, who didn’t feel that Tyrion-Tywin scene was very natural.

    It’s not changes from the books we don’t like, it’s pathetic writing.

  669. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    0KEN0,

    Stay strong my lord,

    dont let the comments weaken you. keep scrolling. We will all see stuff we dont agree with

    {M}

  670. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    It is not “negativity”, it is perfectly righteous anger over illogical and wrong adaptation decisions. I am not the one who whines about every minor change, but this time all the characters of Tywin, Tyrion and Jaime and their relationships became simplified, incoherent, and illogical just in one episode. (And why should anyone care about difficulties of show-making? Only the results are important, and this time they are really bad. And a dumbified adaptation is worse than no adaptation at all.)

  671. 0KEN0
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    I too was a bit disappointed/surprised that the Tysha stuff was left out, but people insisting that Tyrion’s actions don’t make “ANY” sense without it are way off base.

    a) Tywin has repeatedly given him shit about whores the entire series. It still makes perfect sense that listening to Tywin use the term would piss him off.

    b) Tywin has f**ked Tyrion over and called him to the dirt SO many times over 4 seasons. Tywin was the one who presided over the trial, and the one who handed out the death sentence. It still makes perfect sense that Tyrion would want to confront/ get revenge for all that.

    I watched the episode with 8 other people. We talked about the scene in depth afterwards. Both sullied and unsullied made up the audience; not one person called into question the motives. It still makes sense… people just don’t want/ can’t admit it cause they’re too caught up in the fact that it didn’t play out how they wanted.

  672. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That only means D&D are coward writers, ergo bad writers, because they are afraid to make Tyrion the dark guy he becomes (and partly was from the beginning),and the only reason is they do not want to lose viewers… The “where do whores go” is essential part of Tyrion’s character. And actually show Tyrion just have became really pitiful: he in the end mainly kills his father for jealousy, it is ridiculous.

    It’s “cowardly” to create a more sympathetic character? What circle of hell are you posting from?

  673. Howland Reed
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    After a second viewing I don’t understand why D&D would think that this was the best episode in terms of writing. Do people honestly think that this was a better written episode than 4.2? Look at how perfectly tight that episode was.

  674. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Salty Dornishman,

    Yes! That’s my theory as well. Varys probably does know about Tysha and when Tyrion finds out, holy crap it will be epic!!!!

  675. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant:
    Stannis,

    It is not “negativity”, it is perfectly righteous anger over illogical and wrong adaptation decisions. I am not the one who whines about every minor change, but this time all the characters of Tywin, Tyrion and Jaime and their relationships became simplified, incoherent, and illogical just in one episode. (And why should anyone care about difficulties of show-making? Only the results are important, and this time they are really bad. And a dumbified adaptation is worse than no adaptation at all.)

    You use the words “illogical” and “wrong” to describe the showrunners’ adaptation choices, and you wonder why people are fed up with having conversations with people like you?

  676. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Howland Reed,

    Episode 2 was real tight

    {M}

  677. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    You do realize that viewers of a TV show are allowed to complain? The show isn’t perfect, and criticizing criticism is a douche-bag move.

    For the most part, most of us like the show. But the scenes you mentioned haven’t just been criticized by us, but by many people, even non-book readers.

    A show deserves criticism when it makes mistakes. The 10 minutes on Olsen Lannister or 12 minutes on Grey-Worm Missandei deserves criticism. The directing and writing mistakes (YES MISTAKES) of the Cersei-Jaime scene deserved criticism. The messing up of character motivations of Tyrion-Tywin deserved criticism. The sexposition, sexploitation deserved criticism.

    Believe it or not, not everyone watching the show is a fanboy.

    Some people take it too far to call this a bad show, but the rest of us just want this show to be better, and that’s a valid opinion.

    I’m watching this show with the Wire and that show does NOT CARE about it’s casual audience. And here we differ but I do not care whether this show has a casual audience or not, I want this to be the best show ever. I don’t care if Tyrion and Jaime talking about Tysha might seem odd or boring to the casual viewer, it would have been better if it was there.

  678. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    That only means D&D are coward writers, ergo bad writers, because they are afraid to make Tyrion the dark guy he becomes (and partly was from the beginning),and the only reason is they do not want to lose viewers… The “where do whores go” is essential part of Tyrion’s character. And actually show Tyrion just have became really pitiful: he in the end mainly kills his father for jealousy, it is ridiculous.

    They can and will make him darker next season. But they’ll do it without making him irritating. I think GRRM went a bit too far with the self pity. He executed the darkening of Arya brilliantly but it didn’t work quite as well with Tyrion IMO. I think the show is going to do it more subtly and it will be an improvement.

    Considering people feared he’d be so whitewashed he wouldn’t kill Shae at all and that didn’t come to pass I’m not worried they’ll drop the ball on Tyrion’s character development next season the way some of you are.

  679. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    What is up with the protesters saying, “No way Brienne could beat up the Hound”. It was a near run thing, she barely wins and walked away very banged up herself. The worst damage to him actually occurred during his fall when he broke his leg. I think a lot of people, particularly men, won’t like it that Brienne won because it’s just hard to accept that sometimes a woman can beat up a guy. It happens in the real world, why couldn’t it happen in Westeros?

  680. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I like biter, he is bold and passionate. Not afraid to voice his opinion.

    {M}

  681. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant:
    WHY WAS THE THYSA STORY CUT OUT?
    The whole change is so stupid that I really can’t understand the reasons for it.

    Have you considered other reasons for why you can’t understand the reasons for it? Reasons that do NOT revolve around the stupidity of the writers and showrunners, but rather, the stupidity of someone else?

  682. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin:
    Stannis,

    You do realize that viewers of a TV show are allowed to complain? The show isn’t perfect, and criticizing criticism is a douche-bag move.

    For the most part, most of us like the show. But the scenes you mentioned haven’t just been criticized by us, but by many people, even non-book readers.

    A show deserves criticism when it makes mistakes. The 10 minutes on Olsen Lannister or 12 minutes on Grey-Worm Missandei deserves criticism. The directing and writing mistakes (YES MISTAKES) of the Cersei-Jaime scene deserved criticism. The messing up of character motivations of Tyrion-Tywin deserved criticism. The sexposition, sexploitation deserved criticism.

    Believe it or not, not everyone watching the show is a fanboy.

    Some people take it too far to call this a bad show, but the rest of us just want this show to be better, and that’s a valid opinion.

    You’d have more credibility if you didn’t make constant troll posts. Lots of people make criticisms and don’t get jumped on. The difference is that they do actual analysis and discuss both the things they liked and didn’t like.

    All you’ve ever done is bash the show. You’re not here to discuss anything. You’re here to be rude and troll. As long as you continue to act like a child throwing a tantrum you’re going to get called out.

  683. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin,

    Yes my lord, yes.

    We have no idea what they are saying on the Wire. haha. Hang with ‘em

    Well Said,
    {M}

  684. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    What is up with the protesters saying, “No way Brienne could beat up the Hound”.It was a near run thing, she barely wins and walked away very banged up herself.The worst damage to him actually occurred during his fall when he broke his leg.I think a lot of people, particularly men, won’t like it that Brienne won because it’s just hard to accept that sometimes a woman can beat up a guy.It happens in the real world, why couldn’t it happen in Westeros?

    I think that’s probably the primary reason. Lots of men are simply uncomfortable with a woman beating up a man. Simple as that. I mean, there are no official “power rankings” stating that the Hound is a better fighter than Brienne, so where does this vitriolic complaint comes from, other than a place of sexism?

    You’ll also notice that people really didn’t give a fig about Brienne beating Loras Tyrell, given his sexual preferences and effeminate demeanor.

    But a woman beating up a manly man is unconscionable!

  685. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I must say may lady,

    if you yourself are indeed a troll, you maybe the greatest, most well thought out troll in the history of the internet.

    Bravo,
    {M}

  686. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark,

    I really don’t get why you guys support the dumb casual audience so much.

  687. serloras
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Really disappointing episode of GOT, one of the worst actually till now IMO. Ok, I really hate the fact that LS was cut from this episode, but I understand the reasons for this. But..the directing of Alex Graves was poor:
    - I didn’t even see Brienne bite an ear off
    -the camera was shaking, why?
    o
    But the most important thing: it felt totally rushed, especially Tyrion’s scens. This was such a big moment in the books, but the series missed it’s effect. Pointless sex scene between Cersei and Jaime again, pointless drinking of Mance and John. OVerall, I missed the mysterious sphere Game Of Thrones has always had. I hope Alex Graves won’t return to Thrones, because he is fucking the seriess ‘Bloody’. Especially with his very stupid comment about LS being a vengeful zombie.

    Game of thrones has always been cautious with magic, why the fuck fireballs? That was so cheesy.
    Hopefully D&D will put this shit out of the rumble for season 5, cause this is not way to go

  688. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Not at all, I’ve been here since season 1. Never complained until the Qhorin half hand changes.

    It’s not trolling, and I’m not rude, you guys are. I am rude to D&D because I consider them sub-par writers compared to others on this show and other shows. I do RANT (that’s the word you are looking for) after certain episodes, but I have the right to do that, just as you have the right to endlessly praise every letter D&D put on a piece of paper.

  689. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I don’t think “illogical” and “wrong” are that harsh words. Why would not I use them, if I feel them fitting?
    We have just seen show-Tyrion: 1. murdering Shae, about whom he found out she was just a whore,who did not love him 2. and then murdering his father _who is just telling him the truth_.
    Why is it logical? Why is it coherent with either Tyrion’s or Tywin’s character? Why is it better than the book scene?

  690. Lex
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Overall, a great finale.. with a couple problems.

    LOVED
    -The Hound/Brienne fight (and dialogue before the fight) was one of the best in the entire show, so far!
    -The Hound’s final monologue was AMAZING. Rory deserves awards.
    -Stannis and Mance. AWESOME.
    -Glad Tywin/Shae died the way they were supposed to.

    DIDN’T LOVE:
    -The skeleton fight was so over the top, it really took me out of the episode. I LOVE Army of Darkness & Jason and the Argonauts, and it felt like a pretty cool homage… normally I’d love it, in a more traditional fantasy movie, but it felt a bit out of place. Need to rewatch.
    -Bloodraven was, unfortunately, underwhelming in appearance. Somewhat comical. Hopefully they made him look better next year.

    HATED:
    -The exclusion of LS
    -The exclusion of Tysha

  691. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin,

    I watch with family members who only watch the show and there is already so much information that is hard for them to recall or put together so I agree with what you said about the Wire. They should just go all out on GOT, if people get confused there are plenty of resources that do a good job of explaining without spoiling. HBO could really even extend their inside the episodes which im sure is in the DVD sets but I would watch online for sure.

    {M}

  692. Stannis
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    My point is that the TV show is an adaptation of the books so it’s not going to be a 1:1 match. It’s not like every page of the book will be transalted into the show because then we would have a thirty episode season with endless dialogue. And then the other group of whiners, which complain that the show is too static, will start ranting.

    So, with a 10 hour season and a huge cast you clearly need to make some decisions to make the show watchable. Clearly, the Tyrion or Jaime from the show are not identic with their versions from the books. Maybe their motivation is different. But when all will be said and done, I think if you’ll watch the show back to back it will be pretty consistent.

    Stop putting equality sign between the show and the books. They are two different entities, each with their faults. Relax, have a beer, or ten, and enjoy both of them. All in all, the adaptation is far more accurate than other works (be them feature films or TV shows). Dumbified version? I think not.

    PS: I didn’t think that this was D&D’s finest hour and I kind of wanted LS to make an appearence, but, hey, the episode still delivered for me.

  693. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I would like to hear any reasons for that, then. I have made my arguments. (It’s not like I do not understand sometimes the dramaturgical reasons behind changes. E. g. in episode 3/1. it was totally senseful to change what jon lies to Mance, because it was necessary to make the situation more ambigous for the audience. This time it is otherwise.)

  694. renee f
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,
    this list almost everything..almost of the things that bother me. Not so much that the series is not following the book “exactly” but it leads me to believe that I don’t have to waste my time waiting or reading most of the yet to be released books. My imagination has just been destroyed regarding the uprising of the Starks…robs wife bearing a possible child, nope. story line killed. Lady Stoneheart..nope, story line killed. which also is the end of the men without banners and all those associated with the Red God. Coldhands being a stark, be it knight’s king or benJen, killed. the fact that Arya’s connection with her wolf has not been mentioned tells me that the dire wolfs will not evolve into a greater character as a unit..which I was desperately hoping for. So many things. the last two books focused, with the exception of Arya, on a bunch of bs. The GOT series ended with the last great book. I am absolutely convinced GMMR has nothing left..and he is ok with HBO cleaning up his mess, his thousand and one throne possibilities. Why would I waste any more time waiting for a book that will be 75% too long? If so much that was left out was “ok” than why write in the first place? Remember, unlike LOTR this series is not over yet. What is GMMR gonna do? have the series create its own story line now? What, is this a throw back to the “choose your own adventure” book series? All these tweaks cause a butterfly affect..which means he will have to write MORE or spend the next book killing more people off to reduce the characters to..from what I have read on this thread, an “unsullied” understanding? How many hours have I wasted reading plots that go now where..worse, mean absolutely nothing? He has no idea how to conclude this series…not a freakin’ clue. HBO will have to take over cause many will not endure the next two books..

  695. 0KEN0
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin:
    Stannis,

    Some people take it too far to call this a bad show, but the rest of us just want this show to be better, and that’s a valid opinion.

    I’m watching this show with the Wire and that show does NOT CARE about it’s casual audience. And here we differ but I do not care whether this show has a casual audience or not, I want this to be the best show ever. I don’t care if Tyrion and Jaime talking about Tysha might seem odd or boring to the casual viewer, it would have been better if it was there.

    Being disappointed by something, or thinking something wasn’t handled right is fine. It’s the complete shit storms that people like me are sick of. Weather people want to admit it, or can even realize it, but Game of Thrones is far beyond the show we could have ever hoped it would be in the beginning. The chances that this show would have been a complete mess from the start were astronomical. Yet somehow, it’s managed to become a massive success that MOST people love MOST of the time.

    So when people start throwing around words and phrases like “pathetic”, “worst ever”, “not worth watching any more”, etc. THAT’S what’s pathetic! Either you’ve at least mostly enjoyed the show up until now; in which case f*** off with the hyperbolic statements and petty drama. And if you’re such a purist that you’ve basically hated it all so far, than why the f*** are you still watching 4 seasons in?

    A clam, measured, rational response is what I’d like to see. Not a bunch of toddlers threatening to take their ball and go home.

    As for The Wire… it’s not even comparable. That should didn’t NEED a casual audience. It could, and did, survive on a shoe-string budget; and even that show came within an inch of being cancelled multiple times because it didn’t have a big audience (despite it being absolutely brilliant).

    Game of Throne on the other hand, without a casual audience? Forget about it. The only reason HBO continues to back such logistically difficult and costly effort is because it has a huge audience (a massive portion of which are “casual” fans).

    To say you don’t care if the show alienates the casual fan is to say you don’t care if the show is cancelled. Or if it wasn’t cancelled, its budget would be far less than what it is; and you say you want it to be the best adaptation and best TV show ever? How would that be possible without a huge budget? At the end of the day, this is a fantasy series, and especially as the story continues, money will be desperately needed to pull off portions of the show. Even with their huge budget now, they have to make all kinds of sacrifices (see the direwolves). With a drastically reduced budget, the show wouldn’t have a prayer of fully realizing this story.

  696. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    Perhaps you are right about the beer :-) but actually my problem is not with changes,or with even whole minor storylines being cut – that is necessary during the adaptation of such a huge book to screen. But making the main motivations of some protagonists totally different is an other cup of tea… Changing Tyrion’s motivations for this patricide scene is not like cutting out Edric Storm, or not showing Lothor Brune killing Fossoways :-)

  697. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I hope the best :-)

  698. Dogs
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    Episode 9 should have been Episode 8.

  699. Ulf da Wolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Lannister… The Shitslayer.

  700. Biter the Gallant
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I am not sure, that he will be written to be really sympathetic (and i admit, as others have mentioned he can hear the Thysa story from Varys later),but yes,it can be a type of cowardice in this case. During an adaptation many changes can and have to occur,but keeping the essence of the protagonists’ characters correctly is very important. (E. g. the whole Thysa-affair is Tywin’s most disgusting and horrible crime in the books,that is what shows his true nature to both Tyrion and the readers. In the show it basically became the dwarf only being angry for the trial and for his father getting Shae’s pussy,which only makes Tywin a bad man and a hypocrite,but not really the monster which he is.) Tyrion is one of the main protagonists; he becoming a really dark guy (with only a few sympathetic deeds) later is essential to the story. (For a paralel: Sansa liking lemon cakes is not essential, she living in dreams about the knights and their world in the beginning is essential.)

  701. ArgonathofBravos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I don’t think “illogical” and “wrong” are that harsh words. Why would not I use them, if Ifeel them fitting?
    We have just seen show-Tyrion: 1. murdering Shae, about whom he found out she was just a whore,who did not love him 2. and then murdering his father _who is just telling him the truth_.
    Why is it logical? Why is it coherent with either Tyrion’s or Tywin’s character? Why is it better than the book scene?

    YOU have decided that Shae never loved him. The way I see it? Share lived him. Then threats from Tywin and Cersei force him to banish her. She feels betrayed, and does what she does: survive. She ends up in Tywin’s bed,

    Now even if you disagree with this assessment, whether or not Shae loves Tyrion is beside the point. Tyrion LOVED Shae, and he killed her for her betrayal. But he still loved her. That’s why he apologizes to her corpse, rather than reveling in the murder.

    You see, his father essentially forced Tyrion to kill the woman he loved. This is the culmination of Tywin’s insistence that Tyrion rid himself of his whore companions. And on the toilet, Tywin continues to mock the idea that Tyrion could care for a whore. This indifference to what Tyrion held most dear (in the show – Shae) is the ultimate nail in the coffin (or arrow in the chest, in this case).

    His father screwed the one he loved, and compelled him to kill the one loved. His father HAD to die for that sin.

    As for why he went to the Tower of the Hand in the first place?

    Well, that’s been building all season (and really, since season 1). His father has despised him all his life, wanted him dead all his life, humiliated him all his life, and orchestrated a trial to get rid of him (either to the Wall or to his death). And his father was a brutal man. In the show, Tyrion’s sympathies had moved to the people of the realm being harmed by the Lannister reign of terror.

    All of these motivations are more than enough to lead Tyrion to shot Tywin. And I haven’t even mentioned the simple fact of survival once he confronts Tywin on the John. At that point, he’s escaped from prison and threatened his father with a weapon. He’s a goner, and he must kill or be killed.

    All this, and “no Tysha!!??” us the only thing a certain crossection of the fandom can focus on?

  702. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    LOL, I had forgotten how she had beaten Loras and the very different reaction that received, you are absolutely correct! Loras was known as one of the best swordsmen in Westeros, on par with Jaime. People tend to forget that. I’ve known women like Brienne and they’re for real. Plus, like I said, it could have easily gone the other way. There’s no shame in The Hound losing to Brienne. Whatever shame these guys feel is their own inadequacies shining through.

  703. Matru
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    They can still reveal LS the same way as in the books, and it would be an excellent start to the new season. Showing her without Brienne and Pod would be a change from the books aswell. Also, Brienne now has confirmation of atleast Arya being alive, which she can tell LS to not be hanged. Similar to what she does in the books.

  704. thisone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Eddard Stark II:
    To all those who are bitching, i give you this:
    Adaptation –Something that is changed or modified to suit new conditions or needs

    Stop bitching about people who criticize the show. Posts like yours are getting really tiresome.

    Changes are good, changes are necessary. But sometimes the writers do a poor job.

    I liked the episode. Except for the cheesy wight skeletons and fireballs, which left my Unsullied friends shaking their heads.

  705. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    What I really don’t get is that Brienne vs. The Hound of all fights between a woman and a man gets called unrealistic.
    Sometimes fights between men and women actually are portrait unrealistic in television. Take a show like Nikita for example where an athletic but not particularly strong looking woman beats up guys who are build like trucks by the dozens. It’s not that that can’t happen of curse (someone like Regina Halmich would probably beat most of the guys here even though she is only 1,60 m), but sometimes the heroin of a show, really doesn’t look like as if she could kick as much ass like she does in her show.
    But I totally buy someone like Gwendolyn Christie as a badass fighter.
    And for the book purists: Brienne could absolutely beat The Hound. She is easily in the top ten of fighters in Westeros as far as we know. She and The Hound certainly play in the same league.

  706. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Dorian: Sorry, but who cares about Tysha. Like Shae said back in Season 1 – he should’ve known she was a whore. Someone who almost got raped doesn’t invite someone into her bed immediately after. I always thought it would’ve been clunky as hell to work that into Jaime/Tyrion/Tywin and I’m glad they dropped it.

    Nice to finally see someone who I agree with about that bit. I also really didn’t like how it played out in the book: Jamie lying about it all those years really didn’t fit for me, and Tyrion’s knee-jerk “Oh then I killed Joffrey LOL” didn’t fit at all for a normally very calculated character. I also hated how it seemed to destroy Jamie and Tyrion’s great relationship. I’m really glad they left it out.

  707. Overtone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    General question…I’ve only read the first three books (should be receiving A Feast For Crows any day now ;) ). Am I sullied or unsullied?

    I only ask because I seem to end up posting in the wrong discussion threads.

  708. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    *heroine (lol)

  709. Matru
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Also, the way the Bravoosi captain says “Valar doaheris” is so cool. I’m not sure why.. :D

  710. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Biter the Gallant: In the show it basically became the dwarf only being angry for the trial and for his father getting Shae’s pussy,which only makes Tywin a bad man and a hypocrite,but not really the monster which he is.

    This is really a lousy, callous way of explaining the true nature of that relationship. Tyrion’s life was filled with nothing but crimes against his person, primarily by his father, who called him a lecherous little stump and is primarily responsible for the way Tyrion considers his own life, as unworthy of love by anyone save for whores. It’s the hypocrisy of Tywin forcing Tyrion to send away the one he did love, only to bed her later and callously call her a whore that serves – in the show – as the final straw, so to speak. But Tywin’s been nothing but awful to his youngest son, and let’s recall then held a show trial to humiliate him as much as he could and then end up *sentencing him to death.* Tywin’s crimes are legion. You may dislike the exclusion of Tysha – to me it doesn’t matter – but the idea that excluding that story removes Tyrion’s motivation is nuts. The entirety of the show is evidence enough of Tyrion’s motivation for patricide. It’s all there.

  711. Vargoat
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Once again I´m leaving westeros with mixed feelings. This season started so promising and i was dreaming of the best season to come, but now with the last episode gone I must say that season 1 is still my favourite, maybe it was the easiest to adapt for the writers.
    I can´t imagine how hard it must be for the showrunners to keep everything together, but still I must say there were some situations they handeled poorly. Scenes I was looking foward to since the first time I read them 8-10 yrs ago, when not even rumors about a TV-show existed. The death of Tywin was one of this scenes and while it was a great scene with excellent actors it leaves a bitter taste on my tounge.
    It just felt like something was missing, one last piece to the puzzle to make everything perfect and there I am feeling disappointed. Not because the episode was bad but because it could have been better, because some things were so close to being perfect but failed because of unneccasary things.
    I hope they will include lady stoneheart next season but now that I think about it, it would still make sense if Beric would take her role.
    The only thing remained unsaid by me, that still has to be said:

    WHY THE FU** FIREBOLTS???? Those guys may be D&D, that doesnt mean they can make westeros into fu**ing Dragonlance… Screw you guys i go home… JK

  712. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Stannis,

    It delivered for me too! I said it was an otherwise good episode.

    I just thought from the original post you made you seemed to be criticizing book readers for hating the show because of scenes left out from the books. It’s not that at all. Many of our criticisms are echoed by unsullied reviewers. And I just hate when the fanboy army descends on us for daring to criticize this series.

  713. Jakylla
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Thoughts of Tyrion: “Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold”

  714. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    Yes, that was part of my reasoning….Brienne is physically larger than most men in Westeros. She’s an experienced fighter and she has beaten some of the best fighters in Westoros, which means she must be pretty darn good. So you’re absolutely right…she is plausible whereas many female stars in movies and TV today aren’t. Heaven forfend that she be given any credit. Some people think that having a va-jay-jay is an automatic disqualifier for anything typically dominated by men.

    I’ve experienced this phenomenon myself. In college I competed for and won a 3 year ROTC scholarship. Out of the dozens of people competing from 5 different colleges, I had the best grades, the best PT scores, the best field evaluations and the best interview scores. Some of the guys that lost said (to my face no less) that I couldn’t possibly have won, that I must have slept with someone to win. They couldn’t accept that I crushed them and couldn’t admit that my winning was plausible simply because I was a woman. Same kind of stupid mentality here I think.

  715. GRRMlin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    0KEN0,

    Admittedly, my first reaction after the episode was a bit too much.

    I understand what you are saying, and it’s a great argument. It would have been more true for season 1 though. By now, whatever audience Game of Thrones has gathered will stay. If the casual audience is still here after 10 minutes of Tyrion talking about a cousin who killed beetles, they will still be around if you had added Tysha there (or better yet, had Jaime and Tyrion talk about it BEFORE instead of putting all the dumb filler.) If the unsullied got confused, so be it. They will stick around.

    I mean, you have that Olsen scene to appease critics. The romance filler to please romance fans. The Craster Keep scenes to please action junkies. Book purists are a big part of your audience too, but it seems like we are increasingly ignored. Even at times like these where following the books would have made for a better episode!

  716. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Matru,

    I liked the captain. He’s a good example of how nice casting in a tiny role like that can really enhance a scene. Every role, no matter how small, counts. And it was nice that he looks olive-skinned/Mediterranean, more along the lines of a Greek, like Syrio/Miltos. As opposed to paleface red-head Englishy-sounding Gatiss.

  717. House Mormont
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    So it just aired in Britain

    I don’t care about no Stoneheart

    I was really worried about Arya and Brienne happening BUT THEY WERE AMAZING LIKE SHIT THE ENTIRE THING

    loved the cersei and tywin scene so much, Lena was incredible

    Only complaints:
    1) the Wights had such shitty CGI, they were all blurry like badly calibrated 3D
    2) Tyrion’s scenes felt rushed, although I supposed it’d be better on mass rewatch

  718. House Mormont
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Also NO ONE LISTENED TO ME WHEN I SAID TYSHA WOULD BE ALTERED TO BE ABOUT SHAE AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME

    F.Y.I it didn’t work in the book either that Tyrion would wish his brother dead over a half-lie years ago when HE JUST SAVED HIS LIFE

  719. Joe Frost
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    I don’t think anyone is arguing that Brienne is a very talented fighter but she is not in the Hound’s league, just like she wasn’t in Jaime’s league yet the show has massively upscaled her ability. This is nothing to do with her gender, it’s just how the characters were written. Although there were subtle hints that both The Hound and Jaime were carrying major injuries/handicaps I still think it’s sacrificing aspects of their character to build hers. Most show watchers don’t really get just how great a swordsman Jaime ( With the rest of the Kingsguard dying in Robert’s Rebellion it was between he and Barristen Selmy for best in the realm) was before his maiming. This really draws attention to how big a deal the hand loss was. Brienne’s strength of character should come from her pugnaciousness and stubborn refusal to give up on her quest/oath. I can’t help but think having her win every fight she has is the show’s way of countering the claims of misogyny.
    We shall see what next season brings I just hope they don’t further demasculinate Jaime’s character in a duel with Obara Sand (hinted at through “leaks”). In fact I’m still a little unsure if him taking a road trip to Dorne is a good idea or not as it is quite the deviation!

  720. Eric
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Completely agree. Them taking out Jaime’s confession to Tyrion ruined the whole episode for me.

  721. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Joe Frost,

    Brienne has won 3 “real” fights as of yet, all of them were pretty close. The last one certanly was. And I’m sorry, she is among the best fighters in Westeros, the books make that very clear and I say that as a manly man man. ;-)

  722. mimi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    outdoorcats:
    The Hound vs. Brienne was amazing. The Wall stuff was very good. The rest was…shockingly disappointing. …….

    And although Dinklage and Dance were amazing, their final scene together was surprisingly lacking in drama. It just kind of…happened………………

    This. My daughter and her husband are unsullied. When I asked about their reactions to the final episode, she just shrugged. I said ‘What about Tywins death?:. Her reply – “oh, yes, that seemed so rushed and undramatic…….”

    The 2 actors are great. We all know that. They just didn’t have much to work with. One more minute might have made a big difference….Tysha or not.

  723. iridium
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Agreed, those whining about Brienne beating the Hound are revealing more about themselves than they realise…

    I loved the episode as a whole. My favourite scenes:

    - everything at the wall and beyond. Ciaran Hinds was wonderful; I’m so glad those scenes were allowed to breathe so we could finally see Mance’s quiet charisma and strength. Stannis arriving through the mist was awesome (one of many moments I’ve wished I was unsullied), and the synchronised dismount of Stannis, Davos and the two soldiers was bad ass (intentional or not). I can already see crackling chemistry between Stannis and Jon, and Jon and Mel. With Tormund and Mance at the wall as well, along with darling little Shireen, I think the wall storyline is going to be very interesting!
    - Jon’s final farewell to Ygritte. Touched by fire she was in life and again in death. Very moving scene.
    - The Brienne/Hound fight, and Rory’s pained monologue at the end. Just brilliant.
    - All the Tywin bits. His expression when Cersei told him about her and Jamie was perfect. Charles Dance and Lena Heady were both incredible in that scene. And the Tywin-Tyrion scene was executed (oops) perfectly.
    - Varys getting the fuck out of KL. I don’t know why, but the “oh shit” look he gave when the bells tolled, and his quick about-face back to the boat made me laugh and clap. I’m excited to see what they will do with him and I really hope he sticks around. He’s too great a character (and Conleith Hill is too awesome an actor) to lose for a whole season otherwise.
    - Arya leaving for Braavos. I found this hopeful and uplifting and entirely appropriate as a final scene. The music was epic as well.

    Least favourite scenes:

    - I can’t wait to see more of Bloodraven and am excited for this storyline next year, but I was rather bemused by the whole skeleton crew attack and Leaf’s fireballs. I take it from the comments above that the skeletons were in the book (I honestly don’t remember and will clearly have to re-read it) but for some reason it didn’t work well for me. I don’t know if it was the CGI, or the fact that dancing/fighting skeletons have been a film device for decades, but as others have said, it felt a bit Army of Darkness. If only Ash had been there with his chainsaw hand, maybe Jojen wouldn’t have died…
    - The Meereen scenes. I felt so sad for the dragons when they tried to come after Dany as she walked away, but the rest of the scenes felt flat for me. I’m not sure what it is this season, but I haven’t enjoyed Dany’s arc at all. I might be in the minority that I actually love the Grey Worm/Missandei scenes, because they are filled with genuine emotion and a gentle realism that I find lacking in Dany herself. I’m hoping Barristan, Grey Worm and Missandei are all used more next season.

    As for the LS thing: I’m glad it wasn’t in the finale, mostly because I want more of the Brienne and Pod odd-couple travels. In particular, I’d love to see her go to Maidenpool and meet Sam’s father, and to the Quiet Isle. Then on to eventually crossing paths with the BwB, Gendry and you-know-who… I think that would be a good S5 arc, and depending on Jaime’s movements (Dorne will be a short deviation I think), Brienne’s story could converge quite nicely at the end of the season with Jaime’s Riverlands arc.

  724. Wodja
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Happy Hollyoak,

    I will. Very good episode but I didn’t like the fireballs nor the whole zombie thing. Read the books, was not expecting this and didn’t like it, as I am sure a lot of non-readers didn’t like it. Just my opinion – everyone has a different one and I respect that.

  725. Wodja
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Hated the Wight scene as well. And it’s “sailing” not “selling” (this from Stannis, the grammar-N)