The scene that may never happen on Game of Thrones
By Ours is the Fury on in News, Speculation.

Brienne

In a new interview, Entertainment Weekly‘s James Hibberd talks a controversial deviation from the books with a former Game of Thrones cast member, touching upon the big scene that many fans were hoping to see in the season four finale.

The interview is packed with spoilers and so we’ve tucked all this info beneath the cut!

Fans of the A Song of Ice and Fire series are still debating over whether or not we’ll someday see Lady Stoneheart on the show. After she failed to make an appearance in the season finale on June 15th, more and more people are starting to think that the vengeful resurrected form of Catelyn Stark truly has been cut.

Hibberd broached the subject of Stoneheart with Michelle Fairley after discussing her time as Margot Al-Harazi on 24. He tells Fairley he’s “heard third-hand that you were basically told that it’s not likely to ever happen.”

The actress agrees, “Yeah, the character’s dead. She’s dead.” When asked if she’d be interested in returning for Stoneheart, Fairley elaborates, “You respect the writers’ decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can’t stick to the books 100 percent. It’s impossible—they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of brilliant show.

Ours is the Fury:
I believe Hibberd may be referring to his interview with Alex Graves, in this instance. The final word on whether or not the show chooses to include Stoneheart will always rest with Benioff and Weiss. If they do decide to excise her completely, I doubt they’ll confirm that publicly. And of course, they’re not going to confirm it publicly if they are going to include her. At this point, however, it doesn’t look too good for fans wanting to see some Freys hang.


413 Comments

  1. Mike
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    If you don’t include her, what is the point of Brienne and Pod’s arc? It would be pointless to even have them on the show if you don’t plan to include LS. But of course they’re not going to say if she will or won’t be on the show.

  2. Sword of the Morning
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    At this point, the healthiest perspective for those who are both fans of the books and the show is to assume that Lady Stoneheart is cut from the show.

  3. That boy Ramsey
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Imo I don’t think we’ll ever see LS but only because some other certain important character might need to come back later on.might not have the same impact if we cat back in the show.

  4. stustark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    No ls = bs

  5. GeekFurious
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    I suppose they could skip it… but I doubt George introduced it just as a passing storyline. And the actor suggesting she won’t be back could easily be a ruse to keep it a surprise to even book fans.

  6. Nick_Scryer
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    Disappointing but will make for interesting different story lines for Jaime, Brienne and the BwB going forward. Wonder how it’s all going to come together now.

  7. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    At this point, I think we should just assume it’s cut and if it does happen, yay happy surprise!

  8. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Beauty of Tarth!

    Whether it happens or doesn’t happen,we won’t know until it actually does or until the end of season 6 and she’s still not there.. either way I’m not too miffed about it. There are much more important and enjoyable story arcs for D&D to adapt (or envent) that I’m more excited about, personally. Like their take on Dorne,Jon at the Wall, and Tyrion adventures afar… I’d be more miffed if we don’t have Griff and Junior.

  9. TheLightningLord
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Really nice of EW to spoil Lady Stoneheart’s identity in the title of the article. Completely unprofessional.

  10. Maxwell James
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    At this point, one thing it is not going to be is a surprise to anyone. Far too much press coverage. Too bad, imo, but what’s done is done.

  11. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Ahhh and, of course, the tale of delusional Cersei!

  12. SillyMammo
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Will we not see the Brotherhood without Banners again?

    I desperately wanted LS but I wanted it more for the WTF cliffhanger moment it would create. Since it didn’t happen in the season 3 or 4 finales, Im okay with scratch her.

  13. Clob
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    We don’t know what George does with the character. Maybe she releases Brienne to do something and Brienne lops her head off. End of Stoneheart. I would have liked or would like to see LS but it’s not a big deal if not. I have the events in my head from the book so I don’t HAVE to see them. Besides, you KNOW that no matter how well they would do those scenes there would still be tons of bitching that it wasn’t done right or well enough. So yeah, they saved people from being upset.

  14. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    FUCKING 24 SPOILERS GOD DAMNIT!!!!!!

    I havent seen the latest two episodes of 24 ARGHHHHHHHH

    Seriously there is ZERO fucking spoiler warnings for 24 on that article. FUCK.

  15. davyJones
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    thats too bad. I see this happening a lot going forward, the show removing major events to make room for original story lines. A pity.

  16. Joel
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    SillyMammo,

    Exactly! LS, like Coldhands, is likely a pointless character, and the show creators know this better than anyone else except Martin at this point. Martin is good at shock value, but not great at keeping is plot moving and filtering out the filler, as the last two pointless books testify. The show will be better off without a vengeful zombie killing minor characters.

  17. agent777
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Only ten hours? So longer than all three lord of the rings films? Each season? Yeah those guys are sure up against the wall…

  18. agent777
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Joel,

    I know, they need money to hire more porno actors and pervs.

  19. Vin Sidious
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    I’m not “one of those” whiny book purists. I’ve actually enjoyed many of the changes and at this point I actually embrace them, considering the books and the show two separate entertainments.

    Having said that, the Lady Stoneheart reveal is one of THE hallmark moments of the series so far, probably top 10, I would say. It doesn’t matter if the character doesn’t appear much, or won’t have much to do in the grand scheme. THAT MOMENT is simply awesome. One of those handful of book scenes that readers wait literal years to see translated to screen.(Hence all the caterwauling over its omission in S4.) The showrunners being the fans that they are, I have a hard time believing they could cut this scene and this character completely.

  20. Bastard of B-town
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    We dont need spoiler tags yeah? So Stonehearts absence would mean that Beric is not dead? They can bring him back into the show to perhaps fill some of the role that LS does. I for one am happy about it, Beric is my favourite minor character from the books and id love to see them do a lot more with him. I found LS a bit cheesy though I am sure it would have been entertaining still!

    Beric’s the boy though! Theres no reason he cant come back into it now…

  21. D'Arcy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    She also interviewed over at TVLine: http://tvline.com/2014/06/25/24-live-another-day-michelle-fairley-game-of-thrones-lady-stoneheart/

    More vague answers, of course.

  22. Linda
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    So again the writers and producers believe that they are better and smarter than the author. As for the author, he’s riding a cash cow and isn’t going to do anything to fall of it. He’ll just go along to get along. He doesn’t impress me as remotely caring how far off the show goes, so you can drop the “But Martin is being consulted.” Doesn’t matter. He doesn’t care. The show-only people are hooked and don’t care because they don’t know. The book readers are enjoying the show but no one cares how angry we get about the changes. So it comes down to no one really giving a damn as long their paychecks keep rolling in.

  23. Bastard of B-town
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Hopefully they dont go all “Yara attacking the dreadfort” with Brienne and Jamies arcs and screw them up with plotholes and useless twists. I have some faith still after the Brienne vs Hound scene that they can do some awesome deviations

  24. Nick Larter
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    So does Michelle Fairley being told LS won’t happen, open the door for Talisa Stoneheart?

  25. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    agent777,

    Lord of the Rings are 300-400 page that are relatively straight forward…ASoFaI are 800-1100 page books with layers upon layers of plot and subplots…so 3x as many minutes sounds about right.

  26. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    No surprise really…
    I always thought it was quite possible she would not make the TV series based on the logistics of the actress versus impact on the story, how little she appears in the books, and the fact that her scenes could be co-opted by any number of other characters without losing much….

    That said, if the character were to go on and do something important in the books I would not mind if she does surprise me and appear on the TV series.

    Also, I do not think the actress or director were paying a shell game and trying to fake out the fandom in any way whatsoever. Like so many other interviews (or Instagram pics) taken by some fans to mean one thing or another, I think both parties were just being frank and talking off the cuff. No spoilery foreshadowing or misdirection intended…

  27. agent777
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Clob,

    I doubt it… the complaint is the whole sale abandoning of elements from the book, often clearly in favor of other weird scenes which don;t do anything but add nudity and kinkiness. When they stay somewhat close to the books, people are usually pretty happy with the series, and it’s stupid to blame the people who made it a bestselling book. If we find fault with the series, maybe it’s just plain because we don’t think the job is well done. Like if someone you hire does you plumbing badly, you don;t just smile and say “Oh that’s just his interpretation of how you do plumbing. The fact that the toilet backs up now just makes going to the bathroom that much more exciting.”

  28. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    But why?
    Why can’t they just tell us?
    Would it hurt the show in any way if we know whether she’s in or out? I don’t think Michelle’s comment amounts to anything new. If she IS returning as Lady Stoneheart, she wouldn’t say it- and her statement comes off very politically correct.

    I don’t get why they need to put us- book readers- out of the know about this. Why not come out and say she was cut?! Why include the line where she was thrown in the river?! Why send Brienne and Podrick on a mission?! Either LS is in or D&D are consciously teasing the fanbase into not being sure- which is fucking odd! I don’t see how it would hurt for us to know. Especially if she was cut. You’re better off just saying it, instead of eating shit for it when season 5 airs

  29. BryW
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Well, Michelle’s right. The character *is* kind of dead you guys. :)

  30. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Bastard of B-town,

    I wouldn’t bank on any of the BwB coming back. What the hell was the point of including them in Season 3… What was the point of showing us Beric being resurrected… What the hell was the point of ANY of it, if not to introduce Lady Stoneheart?

  31. Duval
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    All things combined it seems likely she’s cut, but more importantly, does that mean there’s no real purpose to her in the books? With rumours of Jaime heading to the south and the possibility of being revived by a red priest already explored last season,it appears she has no true use. That does indeed leave the question, what the hell is the purpose of Brienne’s storyline? They could have her traveling south (if that’s were Jaime’s going) as well, just to have them meet up -not in Dorne per se- there again and wrap up their storylines.

  32. agent777
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Bastard of B-town,

    If this means more Beric… than I’m down, you scenario sounds good. But if it doesn’t…. well, everyone, reader and none reader would of loved the idea of had a zombie Cat killing off Frey’s…

  33. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Dude. Lena Heady posted a god damn Instagram photo of a Stone Heart with the quote “My Stone Heart” just before the Season where Lady Stoneheart “should” have appeared. That is trolling of the highest order!

  34. Domenico Barbato
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Part of me is still delusional and thinks that this is an elaborate – and frankly idiotic – ruse to keep book readers on their toes. Pathetic, I know. If this is true, I will be sorely disappointed.

    I also thought that maybe the problem was Michelle Fairley not wanting to be back for that kind of role, but it doesn’t seem to be the case now. If that’s actually the problem, hell, make Talisa Lady Stoneheart! I used to hate the idea but better that change that no Stoneheart at all, I think.

    Yes, I don’t know whether Lady Stoneheart has a big role further on, maybe it’s just filler, yadda yadda, but that was a hugely shocking defining moment in the book series and it would be a shame not to see it on screen.

  35. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter,

    Lol no. More likely we will get Lord Beric still leading the Brotherhood or possibly even have the Blackfish involved.

  36. andre
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    RIP TVSHOW

  37. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Bastard of B-town: We dont need spoiler tags yeah? So Stonehearts absence would mean that Beric is not dead? They can bring him back into the show to perhaps fill some of the role that LS does. I for one am happy about it, Beric is my favourite minor character f

    For discussion relating solely to Stoneheart, no, I don’t think spoiler coding is really necessary.

  38. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Duval,

    If LS is cut Brienne could get involved in Sansa’s story. They’re both in the Vale.

  39. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    agent777,

    “Like if someone you hire does you plumbing badly, you don;t just smile and say “Oh that’s just his interpretation of how you do plumbing. The fact that the toilet backs up now just makes going to the bathroom that much more exciting.”

    ROFL!!!!

  40. hinesy24
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    If they don’t include LS, they could bring back Beric and the BwB and have them serve the same purpose without UnCat. You could have Beric becoming more and more deranged as the resurrections chip away at his soul. This “fix” would use established characters and established character developments that are “show-canon”. If we see confirmation that Beric/Thoros/Anquay are back for Season 5, that may be an indicator that we’re heading in this direction.

    I would expect the show to have Brienne head through the Riverlands on her way to The Wall and start to hear rumors of the Brotherhood hunting Freys. Mid-way through the season, she could be captured and sent after Jaime, wherever he is at that point (Dorne?) with the confrontation between Brienne/Jaime/Brotherhood happening at the end of the season.

  41. Hodor H'ghar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    It’s not gonna happen. That sucks big time. Oh well, there’s nothing anyone can do about it, so move on.

  42. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    andre,

    The tv show is more popular than ever. I will be more upset if they replace Young Griff with Gendry or don’t have Euron and Victorian

  43. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    A Blackfish and Lord Beric team-up actually sounds pretty awesome, haha! I really enjoyed both those actors. Would be a shame for the to never show up again.

  44. Ed
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Gonna have to agree with everything you’ve written. Good post.
    I could just imagine how cool it would have been to add that reveal at the end of the last show.

    Bu that ship has said. Sigh. Oh well.

    That, and the fact that I’ll never be 6-ft tall are just two things I’ll have to live with.

    Vin Sidious:
    I’m not “one of those” whiny book purists.I’ve actually enjoyed many of the changes and at this point I actually embrace them, considering the books and the show two separate entertainments.

    Having said that, the Lady Stoneheart reveal is one of THE hallmark moments of the series so far, probably top 10, I would say.It doesn’t matter if the character doesn’t appear much, or won’t have much to do in the grand scheme.THAT MOMENT is simply awesome.One of those handful of book scenes that readers wait literal years to see translated to screen.(Hence all the caterwauling over its omission in S4.)The showrunners being the fans that they are, I have a hard time believing they could cut this scene and this character completely.

  45. JTargs
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Well this blows. They better pray GRRM doesn’t have a big part planned for her, and frankly I can’t see him bringing her back unless he did.

    For whoever said they’re excited to see Beric instead… you’re not gonna see Beric lol theyre not going to bring back the brotherhood if stoneheart is cut and I cant imagine any show watchers wanting to see or remembering the Brotherhood.

    The sole reason that they are cutting stoneheart is because they want to make the show seven seasons. There are two massive books with the biggest plot points, plot twists, battles etc to cover that will need at LEAST a season each and theyve made it clear with added Dorne material that theyre not cutting much from feastdance, so that will need at least a season as well. It looks to me like Jaime will be going to Dorne in TWOW, and theyre choosing to move ahead with his storyline instead of sending him to the Riverlands or his stoneheart arc. Im not sure why Brienne and Pod are in the show though as they serve no other purpose besides telling that stoneheart arc.

  46. John M W
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    I think my biggest beef here is what’s the point of bothering to introduce the whole ressurected Beric thing? Why did they devote precious screen time to that if they never intended to include LS?

    I’m honestly taken aback by this interview. I always figured it was delayed until later in the story, but not taken out completely. But Fairley seems like she’s being direct, not coy.

  47. JTargs
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    hinesy24: Anquay

    They have to fit FeastDance and the two biggest, most important, battle and plot filled books of the entire series into three seasons. Theyre not going to add Berric Dondarion filler.

  48. JTargs
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    I dont really know why quotes and editing posts doesnt work on mobile but alas there is naught I can do

  49. SusieQ
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    I still think the show runners missed an opportunity to have THE MOST awesome ending to season 4. It would have been worth the extra $ to have that scene and hire MF for a day or two….. Can’t wait for Eric and Zach to get to this scene when Game of Owns does its read of SOS and see what they think…….

  50. sens
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    -D&D knows if Stoneheart has an important role or not later on, so they’re not cutting her only to end up “Whoops, who knew??” later on.

    -So far Stoneheart has had very little impact on the grand scheme of things in the book.

    -It’s bad to include a Stoneheart cliffhanger if they can’t deliver an satisfying continuation of that story.

    -Do you think Melisandre visited the Brotherhood only for Gendry? No, probably to make sure her resurrecting Jon won’t come out of nowhere. Jon’s potential resurrection will be the important one, not Catelyn Stark’s.

  51. JTargs
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    agent777:
    Clob,

    I doubt it… the complaint is the whole sale abandoning of elements from the book, often clearly in favor of other weird scenes which don;t do anything but add nudity and kinkiness. When they stay somewhat close to the books, people are usually pretty happy with the series, and it’s stupid to blame the people who made it a bestselling book. If we find fault with the series, maybe it’s just plain because we don’t think the job is well done. Like if someone you hire does you plumbing badly, you don;t just smile and say “Oh that’s just his interpretation of how you do plumbing. The fact that the toilet backs up now just makes going to the bathroom that much more exciting.”

  52. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    John M W,

    If we assume that LS is in just for the sake of this post, nothing Fairley said in the interview is a direct confirmation that she was cut. If she knows she’s in the show, this comes off as an answer that she could say (because she can’t talk spoilers).

    Still, it doesn’t look good.

  53. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    D&D have really never been big on giving away future plot details have they? I have never read that we would or would not see Griff, the Kingsmoot, or Dorne (until very recently). It is completely in character to not say if LS will appear or not. I don’t find it odd at all honestly…

    As for the “why send Brienne and Pod on a mission” question, I would say for the same reason GRRM does it in the book. To get them someplace D&D want them. They could have the pair encounter anyone it does not need to be LS to make their journey worthwhile.

    Personally I do not think D&D owe the fans anything as far as hints at upcoming seasons or events. If fans expect to see something and said scene does not make the TV series they have no one to blame but themselves honestly. I say that already blaming myself for expecting scenes and dialog to be included in past seasons!

  54. Sam
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    If she’s out, it’d be really really stupid and the second change I’m really upset about – after leaving out Tysha.

    However, I still think there’s a slight chance she’ll be in. People often like to overestimate the changes made in the show (such as completely leaving out Dorne, leaving out Edmure, etc).

  55. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    I must admit I am liking D&D more than ever. LS was GRRMS worst character decision ever and cutting her is D&D’s best adaptive decision ever. LOVE LOVE LOVE this!

    Not affiliated with my magic willy BTW.

  56. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    John M W,

    She said Cat was dead, which is what she’s been saying…in other words she is neither confirming nor denying anything and that UnCat will either show up or she won’t. So no actual knowledge was gleamed from the article. Either way there will most likely still be a point to Beric story arc. I highly doubt the BwB will never show up again, even if it is without her.

  57. Jonathan Loesche
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Ser Matt the Sullen,

    So that when Melisandre revives Jon Snow sometime in Season 5 or 6 it won’t look like D&D pulled it out of their ass

  58. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Honestly, I would try to respect the decision if they wouldn’t have been so keen on not letting us now what the decision is. At this point it just comes off as annoying.

  59. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Keep reading. She confirms that she respects their decision to leave her out.

    Y’all keep interpretating what you want and keep hoping for that happy ending that. if you don’t know GRRM by now, won’t ever fucking happen. An actual ending for that matter.

  60. RDS
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I hope they don’t cut this character. Why would they take that from us???

  61. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    To be fair, she would say the same thing if she knew she was in (since she isn’t allowed to discuss spoilers) and she never truly says anything about whether she was cut or not. Only that she respects the writers’ decision.

  62. Vin Sidious
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Nothing for LS to do? Suppose Walder Frey ends up hiring a Faceless Man to kill this Lady Stoneheart bitch who keeps hanging all his kin. (nevermind that he’d probably just as soon send her a “thank you” gift basket)

    That could lead to a truly heartwrenching reunion, of the most very awful kind, no?

  63. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Ser Matt the Sullen,

    When I saw that pic I though “Oh cute” – Not “She is hinting at Stonehart making the series!”

    I thought people overreacted then and still do. I think I said then if Daniel, Gwen or Nikolaj would have sent the pic I would put more value in it, but honestly, even then I would probably not have taken it as anything other than cast mates being cute or showing affection.

  64. Arian
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    first time i’m saying it , Fuck You DnD

  65. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    John M W,

    The purpose of introducing the Brotherhood in season 3 was to set up their eventual encounter with Brienne (with or without LS). It also sets up Jon’s possible resurection by Melisandre

  66. 2awesome4apossum
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Well, this is not my favorite. I wouldn’t mind replacing some of the pornography and filler with interesting plot points. But whatever, guess they’ve gotta make room for the fulfillment of their boyhood fantasies.

  67. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Don’t get me wrong I am going into next season expecting her cut, because that is the best way to enjoy GoT on its own terms, plus it doesn’t bother me one way or the other; however, whether or not she knew if she was coming back she would most likely still say that she respected their decision.

  68. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Ya, I cannot take “But yeah, I knew [there'd be no Lady Stoneheart]….” as anything but direct and fairly definitive! XD

    To interpret that as anything else seems like parsing words to match one’s hopes..

    Stranger things have happened though. D&D could change their minds, but I certainly would not take that bet!

  69. Sara
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    maybe blackfish will do the job. Idk

  70. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    I agree, at this point it’s safe to assume that LS has been cut. Better to accept it now than to be disappointed in the future

  71. Myrish Swamp Thing
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    It was a big fist pump moment on page, but I’m sort of OK with this adaptation decision. I’m with Graves, don’t bring her back unless/until you need her. And anyway, any Frey that is hanged is a Frey that is not baked in a pie.

  72. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    Rygar,

    To be fair, she would say the same thing if she knew she was in (since she isn’t allowed to discuss spoilers) and she never truly says anything about whether she was cut or not. Only that she respects the writers’ decision.

    To be fair, stating what she WOULD say is presumptuously narcissistic. And fuck her right in the pussy.

  73. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Don’t you go GeekFurious on me!
    And fuck you right in the penis :)

  74. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    My Lady Fairley is an actress by trade,

    naturally I do not believe a word she says.

    John M W,

    JTargs,

    J, while it would make sense that the brotherhood would not return if LS is cut, I could still see D&D capitalizing on Lord Beric. Assuming they cut this character I think Beric would be badass in the role alone. His personnel introduction/ trial is one of my favorite chapters and scenes from the show. He is an awesome character and I would enjoy expanded show material devoted to him and the brotherhood.

    {M}

  75. Maelina
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    John M W,

    The purpose of introducing the Brotherhood in season 3 was to set up their eventual encounter with Brienne (with or without LS). It also sets up Jon’s possible resurection by Melisandre

    This. I trust D&D’s vision of the story and I don’t think we can tell before the end of the show and the book series if excluding LS is a bad move. They know more than any of us, so this bitching from book readers seems to them probably similar to what book readers had to endure when the show watchers threatened to quit watching the show after Ned died. Let’s give them a chance, yes?

  76. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Maybe she will show up in the final season of True Blood along with all the other dead actors.

    Thank you, try the Chilean sea bass.

  77. ikriti
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    wow fuck this show, im out

  78. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    But why would they religiously avoid answering this question if they cut LS? Wouldn’t they have to comment on it at some point? Why delay that comment when you can say it now?

    It’s true they don’t owe us anything but if LS is truly cut, and that will not come as a surprise after the season 4 finale, that’s be like D&D not discussing Jojen’s death. No comment. Why do that?

  79. Matt Sinopoli
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    I don’t even care if they cut her at this point since they already wasted the perfect opportunity to introduce the character. I just wish they had come out and told us so that our expectations had been kept in check.

    What’s the harm in letting fans know? I remember Peter Jackson being pretty transparent about why they cut Tom Bombadil from LOTR when the first movie came out. It’s a lot more frustrating to be strung along each season wondering if she will show up. If they really decided to cut her and been open about it from the beginning, I think fans would have been a lot more receptive to the news.

  80. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Matt Sinopoli,

    Exactly. There’s just no reason not to say it.

  81. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    They did the same with Donal, Belwas, and Coldhands.

  82. Phil
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    so no LS, and so far no even casting rumors or anything on Euron/Victarion, but what we do have is Jamie going to Dorne an expanded Trystane/Myrcella teenage romance plotline, and Jaqen as Arya’s teacher Meanwhile Jon hasn’t even been elected Lord Comannder, there’s no Dalla and baby plotline to send Sam and Gilly to Oldtown Plus they want to finish this in 3 more seasons. At this rate is seems like D&D will just write their own story and who knows of GRRM will just not write the last two books since he takes so long and the show will just catch up/change everything.

    I’ve still had like 85% faith in D&D and GRRM, but to quote Community, it feels like we’re entering the Darkest Timeline now.

  83. TheNorthRemembers
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    When I read comments from people on here and other places complaining about “filler” or “pointless” plots, I’m always reminded of how many producers approached Martin over the years to turn ASoIaF into a movie just about Dany and/or Jon Snow. Bafflingly, I think these readers are very similar to such producers, prizing a fast plot over character history and development, excitement over subtlety. I’m surprised people like that are fans of the books (or show) at all.

  84. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Fuck I wasn’t finished. Those three characters, although fodder, would have been better suited for this show than a walking self-rightgeous premeditative zombie.

    Ain’t nothing gonna break-a my stride and nothing gonna slow me down… I’m so pumped. Happy dancing! Smoke a bowl!

  85. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Did anyone ever ask them, though?
    When someone asked GRRM about Belwas he immediately confirmed he got cut.
    When someone asked Sam’s actor if Coldhands was cut he said he got cut.
    No one asked anyone about Donal Noye.
    When they were asked about Dorne, D&D answered that Dorne features in season 5.

    And THIS they keep avoiding, and they specifically don’t tell Alex Graves if she was cut or not either.

    Anyway, if she IS cut (which seems likely at this point) I think it’s a really stupid way to face the issue. If they would have said now that she was cut rather than “no comment”, at least we could move on.

  86. Zack
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Not gonna lie, but I’m disappointed. Not only is the character exciting, cathartic and tragic, it provides something for Brienne, Pod, and Jaime to do, it gives us more with Thoros, Anguy and the rest.

    They’ve solved the Jaime thing I guess by sending him to Dorne (I guess to kind of be Arys Oakheart?)

    The hell are Brienne and Pod going to do, though?

    I’m hopeful the Brotherhood is shown hanging Freys at least. Fuck the Freys

  87. TheNorthRemembers
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m equally baffled that so many people get so angry at GRRM for not writing “fast enough”. I know that I eagerly await the next book (and yes, I do sometimes fear for his health), but seriously, this hate and anger? It’s like you’re entitled to a quick story, that your satisfaction is paramount. GRRM is not your servant. We all know that if you have to wait 20 more years, you’ll snap up the book and enjoy every page. If you love the story, respect the author.

  88. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    John M W:
    I think my biggest beef here is what’s the point of bothering to introduce the whole ressurected Beric thing? Why did they devote precious screen time to that if they never intended to include LS?

    I’m honestly taken aback by this interview. I always figured it was delayed until later in the story, but not taken out completely. But Fairley seems like she’s being direct, not coy.

    There was still a purpose for the Beric resurrection. There was a reason Melisandre visited the Brotherhood to find out about this capability. Once Jon Snow is killed, he can be revived by Melisandre.

    My concern is how much are D&D cutting out of the Riverlands story going forward. Seems rather silly to have someone else performing the function of Lady Stoneheart and not just use Lady Stoneheart. With Bran you can now show the past event in a small scene that could be only a few minutes. Cutting LS isn’t the same cutting Coldhands or Strong Belwas. You aren’t casting a new actress or adding a new character.

    I guess all we can expect from Brienne is an introduction to the sparrows heading to King’s Landing, after that, we are as good as the unsullied.

  89. TheNorthRemembers
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Fuck I wasn’t finished.Those three characters, although fodder, would have been better suited for this show than a walking self-rightgeous premeditative zombie.

    Ain’t nothing gonna break-a my stride and nothing gonna slow me down… I’m so pumped.Happy dancing!Smoke a bowl!

    I didn’t know there were trolls in Westeros.

  90. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I tried answering you but my comment never appeared.
    In a sense, D&D were never asked outright about the roles you mentioned- and Belwas and Coldhands were actually confirmed to be cut from the show (by GRRM and Sam’s actor). When D&D were asked about Dorne they immediately said that it’s in. Why not say LS is out?

    I’m just saying, they should say she’s cut. That’s all.

  91. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    My comments aren’t showing up. Help?

  92. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    TheNorthRemembers,

    That has literally nothing to do with this article

  93. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish,Beric, and Thoros. I’m giddy.

  94. ColdStark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m convinced it will never happen and this exclusion will utterly spoil the rest of the TV series for me…. no way around it. I’m sure some of you are foaming at the mouth to scream SEE YA at me after reading that. That’s fine by me, go ahead if it makes you feel better.

    I hate the majority of the changes and deviations they are making, so I’ll simply stop watching and stop spending my money on the brand. Its the only meaningful protest I can make.

  95. 2awesome4apossum
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    TheNorthRemembers,

    The implication you’re making is that there’s no such thing as filler. Character beats are what this show is about, and you combine them all together and they form the plot. Sometimes this is done really well, sometimes it isn’t.

    Tell me what purpose the Podrick inneundo scenes serve. They don’t really tell us anything about his character, and they seem to have no impact on anything whatsoever. It literally tells us nothing about him, it’s just a recurring joke for a few episodes, and then is dropped completely. (Unless season 5 is gonna be full of Podrick sexposition, which seems borderline likely. ;p)

    I think it’s kind of juvenile to think that you have to love every choice the storyteller makes in order to enjoy the show. My favorite series, Battlestar Galactica, made a LOT of bad choices, but also a lot of good an unexpected choices. Doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it anyway. Doesn’t mean it’s not my favorite show.

    Discernment and discussion enhances my enjoyment of a show, it doesn’t lessen it.

  96. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    TheNorthRemembers,

    I don’t understand “filler” either. To me that indicates that they are lacking material and have too much air time.

    {M}

  97. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    ColdStark,

    SEE YA!!!

  98. Noob Takes the Black
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    stustark,

    If you need an interested party out for revenge, couldn’t you build out the Blackfish to fill some of that role? It keeps a Tully around until an endgame. I’m in a minority, I suppose, but unless That Character has something fundamental to the end of the story (and I don’t see how), she strikes me as dispensible.

  99. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish and Beric > Lady Stoneheart

  100. George Bell
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    I can live without vengeful undead Cat in the show as long she doesn’t play a large role in the books. The! LS scene was a surprise but Brienne’s story arc was very boring in AFFC.

  101. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Totes magotes

  102. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I can see your point if and only if one assumes Lady Stoneheart would only appear in Season 4 and not after… It could make some sense for them to comment after the fact, but certainly not before!

    In theory LS could appear in the upcoming Season 5 at the natural point for her appearance in Brienne’s arc, so why would they comment now? Technically I guess if they wanted they could even intro LS later as long as some character in Season 5 commented about a mysterious new leader to BWOB as set up.

    I do not get why people expect (maybe desire is a better word) an answer right now. We have never got a definitive answer for characters that may yet appear in the series that I recall – Not from D&D at least.

    GRRM has commented about a character not appearing in a given year. He mentioned Belwas was cut a couple seasons back I think…

  103. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    I think GRRM has told D&D that he regretted including undead Cat in the story. There have been rumors for years that he felt this way. I respect D&D’s decision to save the one big resurrection for Jon.

  104. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    TheNorthRemembers: I didn’t know there were trolls in Westeros.

    And no revenge minded zombies either. But if either of them were needed to tell D&D’s story, then more power to them for inclusion. But since they are not, in honor of Michael Jackson, just beat it.

  105. Dan Spicer
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    This kind of seals it for me. Blackfish will link up with the Brotherhood and fill the vengeance role.

  106. mariamb
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Nick Larter,

    Lol no. More likely we will get Lord Beric still leading the Brotherhood or possibly even have the Blackfish involved.

    Hope so. Always believed that the Blackfish was a much more interesting character than LS.

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Blackfish and Beric > Lady Stoneheart

    Without a doubt. Throw Thoros in and it gets even better.

  107. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Blackfish and Beric > Lady Stoneheart

    Awesome. You can tell D&D or at least one of them has a man crush on Beric

    {M}

  108. Sam
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Michelle Fairley is an ACTRESS, people. And a good one.

    I don’t see why this interview should have too much impact on what people think about this storyline.

    What else would one expect her to say? Coy would imply a “yes.” “Wait and see” would imply a “yes.” Only “no” means no, so just go with it.

  109. EverydayI'mHodoring
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    I think if she was cut they would have said something by now. I mean they confirmed Strong Belwas and others not making it into the adaptation.

  110. GoT Fan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    ikriti,

    Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

  111. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Eh. I don’t think that will happen.
    I think they’ll get Brienne involved in Sansa’s story.

  112. RobbBreakWind
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    One thing D&D say is what huge fans they are of the books and how they respect the material. The also said Seasons 3 & 4 were the ones they were most looking forward to making because of the powerful source material. The strength of A Storm of Swords are the “Holy Sh**” moments that hit you early, in the middle and then the biggest one, at the end. You’ve got Red Wedding, the Death of Oberyn and then the Lady Stoneheart reveal. Those are the defining moments of not only the book, but of the series. To leave out Lady Stoneheart would be a grave disservice.

  113. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    The way D&D have written Thoros makes him a more compelling character over GRRMs LS. I really like this idea. Like I like it enough to FHRITP.

  114. zerowolf
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Some of these posts are so funny.
    To say ‘If there is no LS I’m not going to watch the show any more’ is ridiculous and blatantly not true – and you know it
    The appearance of LS in the books was a major surprise and, at first, exciting.
    But then what?
    We’ll never know.
    A character without the ability to talk? Not on TV. Same went for Vargo Hoat and his lisp. Great in the books but probably the wrong kind of funny on the show.
    What would LS be doing after the Jaime/Brienne scene?
    What possible story line could they give her that would move the overall story along. With no dialogue?
    The show runners had the same thought and so they ditched her. Sensible.
    If they had introduced her in the season finale it would have been a shocker for the unsullied but would have been a damp squib by episode 1 of the next series.
    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – the show is the only chance we book readers have of finding some sort of conclusion to this saga.
    Our only chance.
    Let’s not be too overly critical.

  115. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    Rygar,

    I agree that D&D gave Thoros of Myr some excellent lines but the Thoros GRRM writes (whom we do not necessarily have to account in person) is a pretty compelling dude and thats why show Thoros is solid.

    {M}

    Honestly all I remember from the book character is the flaming sword so you may be accurate in your assessment of the character. However the depth of the show character and emotional range from the actor makes me want more!

  116. Mimsy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    I spoiler tag because I care.. although most is speculation.

    I feel like Brienne’s end game is to come across Starks so almost anything is possible with her. Could she assist in a Rickon rescue.. Davos/Brienne team would be full of honorable awesomeness.. too bad she hates Stannis.. :/ ..team Davos won’t approve.

    I’m okay with no LS. It was a great read, but there’s only so much that can be done in 10 short episodes. I like the idea of the Blackfish getting Beric support and going up against the Freys.

    At this point, I’m still very pleased with D&D’s adaptation and am grateful for being exposed to ASIOF. I would NEVER have read it if I hadn’t seen Season 1 and for that I will always be grateful.

  117. Renly's Peach
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Christ I really hope GRRM follows through with making Stoneheart a pivotal character in the end. I hope he turns her into a really important piece and the show falls flat on its ass. I’ve been faithfully protecting their asses on every change they’ve done thus far, but this is just ridiculous. They haven’t given ANY solid reason as to why they’ve left her out. Just “hurr she doesn’t talk” or “boo hoo Michelle is TOO GOOD AN ACTRESS FOR THE ROLE” — please.

    The truth is D&D are allergic to the more fantastical elements of the series. If it’s not dragons or ice zombies, they stay away from it like the plague. Even the more outlandish, fantastical elements from Essos (simple stuff like the clothing) is consistently left out because they feel it’s too much fantasy. On a fantasy series.

    If any of the many solid theories about Stoneheart’s future turn out to be true, this is a huge disservice they’re doing to themselves. This is also probably the first time that the show has seriously disappointed me.

  118. JohnnySD
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Vin Sidious: aybe she releases Brienne to do something and Brienne lops her head off. End of Stoneheart. I would have lik

    I think there is an equal number of book readers that think

    Vin Sidious:
    I’m not “one of those” whiny book purists.I’ve actually enjoyed many of the changes and at this point I actually embrace them, considering the books and the show two separate entertainments.

    Having said that, the Lady Stoneheart reveal is one of THE hallmark moments of the series so far, probably top 10, I would say.It doesn’t matter if the character doesn’t appear much, or won’t have much to do in the grand scheme.THAT MOMENT is simply awesome.One of those handful of book scenes that readers wait literal years to see translated to screen.(Hence all the caterwauling over its omission in S4.)The showrunners being the fans that they are, I have a hard time believing they could cut this scene and this character completely.

    Vin Sidious:
    I’m not “one of those” whiny book purists.I’ve actually enjoyed many of the changes and at this point I actually embrace them, considering the books and the show two separate entertainments.

    Having said that, the Lady Stoneheart reveal is one of THE hallmark moments of the series so far, probably top 10, I would say.It doesn’t matter if the character doesn’t appear much, or won’t have much to do in the grand scheme.THAT MOMENT is simply awesome.One of those handful of book scenes that readers wait literal years to see translated to screen.(Hence all the caterwauling over its omission in S4.)The showrunners being the fans that they are, I have a hard time believing they could cut this scene and this character completely.

    I think an equal number of book readers feel LS reveal was THE moment when ASOIAF almost jumps the shark. It is easily the worst thing in the books until he resurrects Jon and quite frankly I am tickled that she has been cut completely. Even GRRM himself has said he would not include her if he did it over, so why would anyone think her arc is important?

  119. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    True and my bad since you weren’t even talking about that

  120. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    I think the maniacal fan outrage has probably ensured that LS will be cut. If the sullied had kept their passions bottled up a bit, there might have been a chance that D&D would have considered the benefits of the the LS shock value for season 6. But given how ubiquitous coverage of the missing LS has been, I doubt it will even have that kind of limited value.

    I, for one, am delighted by this news. The rest of the story focuses on the children of the Starks and Lannisters, and the LS stuff is regressive. Leave the parent’s story behind, and let Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon or Jon take vengeance on their enemies.

    RIP Catelyn Stark!

  121. Pam
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    JohnnySD: I think there is an equal number of book readers that think

    I think an equal number of book readers feel LS reveal was THE moment when ASOIAF almost jumps the shark. It is easily the worst thing in the books until he resurrects Jon and quite frankly I am tickled that she has been cut completely. Even GRRM himself has said he would not include her if he did it over, so why would anyone think her arc is important?

    That’s a rumor. Unless you have a source?

  122. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    JohnnySD,

    At least the Jon stuff has been foreshadowed, with the whole AA reborn prophecy and the visions Mel had in ADWD. Plus, he’s an infinitely more important character than Cat.

  123. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Blackfish alone is way better than LS. And the actors playing Blackfish and Dondarrion? Badass. I’ll take more of them over an undead Cat any day.

  124. Weiss
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Brienne is in the vale for a reason. She will join Sansa. So will The hound.
    Sansa+ LF + Brienne will kill all the freys and take Riverrun. And Jaime will join them at the end on return from Dorne. This will make Sansa YMBQ [Took Joffrey and Jaime away from Cersei.]
    Sansa is already in Winds of Winter, lot of people didnt notice that. her arc was accelerated for this reason only. You will notice they did not accelerate any other arcs except for hers.
    Purpose of BwB – Melisandre will resurrect Jon snow.

  125. dragonreborn
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    I wanted it to happen so much but after this point, they’d better not include her. catelyn is long forgotten for show viewever. it won’t make the impact it could have anymore.

    Now what I want to see is how brienne’s arc will continue. I think the actress implied in an interview that she may encounter the hound again. Maybe she’ll get killed that way or may be she isn’t dead even in the books!

  126. Turncloak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    dragonreborn,

    Brienne is alive in ADWD

  127. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    Brotherhood is probably cut too next season. I see no reason for Brienne to even consider joining the Brotherhood without Lady Stoneheart. She will probably be captured by Faith Militants and Jaime will need to rescue her from them. They’re gone. We may get a few conversations about what the Brotherhood is up too, but I wouldn’t expect to see them next season.

    ColdStark,

    I know exactly how you feel. I’ve been very open to the changes D&D have made, but this one just doesn’t sit well with me. I’ve always looked at Lady Stoneheart as the Gods way of punishing the Frey’s for violating Guest Rights. She brings a glimmer of hope that justice can be found for those actions. If Nymeria’s wolf pack takes over this function, then I’ll be okay with eliminating Lady Stoneheart. But if we don’t see any Frey’s suffering next season, I’ll be pissed.

  128. JaimenotJamie
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Love the decision – hoping Blackfish fills that role with BwB.

    Also hoping they go this route with Jon.

  129. DocBean
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m mostly concerned about LS cut not because I cared about her, (I actually hate the character) what makes me nervous is that we are getting to a point where the show may spoil the books. If they know how all of this stuff is going to play out, then they are telling us she doesn’t have a big part to play in the books. What happens when they pass GRRM’s writing? Do they spoil the series for book readers? Granted, some dumbass readers deserve to be spoiled.

  130. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see why D & D can’t just come out and say that certain characters are going to be cut. It would subdue the disappoint a little rather than watching each episode praying for that character to show up.

  131. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    NoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

    Saw it coming. Do I have to change my name now?

  132. Renly's Peach
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    I find it so amusing how you people bend over backwards going into full damage control over every bullshit omission and change D&D make.
    “O-Oh it’s better this way. GRRM didn’t know what he was doing when he wrote that.” Jeez. You don’t even know if these characters will be important later on and I very much doubt they do either.

    I hope she turns out to be a pivotal part of the story in later books and the show falls flat on its ass.

  133. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    JaimenotJamie,

    Did you watch the scene where Mel stares at Jon through the flames in the finale? If Jon being resurrected is what happens, I don’t see them cutting it or the character. I think the decision to cut LS, if they do, has more to do with what the character is, than being against resurrection. They did show Beric being brought back, after all.

  134. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Some of us learned how to separate the books from the show long ago.

  135. Greenjones
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    The Omar Sy thing is a false lead. He tweeted that it was fake. NVM all.

  136. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    Yeah was just coming over here to say that, after checking it out.

  137. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Linda:
    So again the writers and producers believe that they are better and smarter than the author.As for the author, he’s riding a cash cow and isn’t going to do anything to fall of it.He’ll just go along to get along.He doesn’t impress me as remotely caring how far off the show goes, so you can drop the “But Martin is being consulted.”Doesn’t matter. He doesn’t care.The show-only people are hooked and don’t care because they don’t know.The book readers are enjoying the show but no one cares how angry we get about the changes.So it comes down to no one really giving a damn as long their paychecks keep rolling in.

    IMO, the show writers and producers ARE smarter and better than the author.

    Plus, I believe there have been strong hints that GRRM regrets the inclusion of LS. For all we know, he may have encouraged her exclusion!

  138. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    I find it so amusing how you people bend over backwards going into full damage control over every bullshit omission and change D&D make.
    “O-Oh it’s better this way. GRRM didn’t know what he was doing when he wrote that.” Jeez. You don’t even know if these characters will be important later on and I very much doubt they do either.

    I hope she turns out to be a pivotal part of the story in later books and the show falls flat on its ass.

    Finally, a voice of reason. I applaud you good sir or madam.

  139. EverydayI'mHodoring
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    She’s coming back. D&D usually come out and say when a character isn’t showing up (Strong Belwas, for example). It was pointless to have the Brotherhood Without Banners on the TV show and go over the resurrection magic scenes otherwise.

  140. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    All hail Queen UnCat and King Littlefinger! D&D are going to look like even bigger fools when this happens in the books. Lady Stoneheart = most important character EVAR!!!

  141. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    I’m disappointed if she’s cut. It’s one of the few times I hate a deviation. However, if there are practical reasons for it I can understand. I just wish they’d come out and say it so we don’t have to speculate all through the off season.

    I hope the whole rest of the Riverlands and BWB aren’t gone too.

  142. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of the books and what will happen in them, are the pizza’s still coming, George? Will they be excellent? I’m fucking hungry, so hurry up.

  143. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    JTargs:
    Well this blows. They better pray GRRM doesn’t have a big part planned for her, and frankly I can’t see him bringing her back unless he did.

    They don’t have to “pray,” they can simply ASK GRRM! And as D&D have already indicated, GRRM has told them where the story is going for the final books, and has likely given them a breakdown of what he plans to do with each character, including Lady Stoneheart.

    You do know that GRRM is a writer for the show, as well as a co-executive producer for the show?

  144. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Ffs. Why didn’t my post show up? This never used to happen to me. Now it does all the time. Can somebody please explain why this is happening. By the time they show up the thread moved on and nobody reads it. What a waste of time.

  145. strokememarge
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    D&D will save the magic McGuffin for a more integral character. They will probably build off the Thoros summation from season three that his love for Beric enabled the red god to work that miracle. Therefore since Mel now understands this new power but also its rules and limits, she will use it for someone she truly cares for, if that’s possible. This is just one plausible option the show runners could employ with this plot device.

  146. The Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    For as brilliant as GRRM is…. Bringing so many people back from the dead is a down right horrible thing for any writer to do. Characters need to stay dead unless it is in a really special way. They will likely have to bring Jon Snow back from the dead soon and it completely makes it look cheap if they did it with Lady Stoneheart first. And the BwB is still important to show that a character can be brought back to life when it happens to Jon.

    D&D are correcting a bunch of what the books get wrong.

  147. Renly's Peach
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Holy D&D fanboyism, Batman!

  148. The Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    EverydayI’mHodoring:
    She’s coming back. D&D usually come out and say when a character isn’t showing up (Strong Belwas, for example). It was pointless to have the Brotherhood Without Banners on the TV show and go over the resurrection magic scenes otherwise.

    That is wrong. The BwB is still important without Lady Stoneheart. When Jon Snow needs to Combe back from he dead…..

  149. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    EverydayI’mHodoring:
    She’s coming back. D&D usually come out and say when a character isn’t showing up (Strong Belwas, for example). It was pointless to have the Brotherhood Without Banners on the TV show and go over the resurrection magic scenes otherwise.

    Why bring back an amazing actor to just mime her scenes? It seems like D&D have GRRMs end story straight from the turtles kraken so if LS is crucial to the overall story then it’ll be GRRM making some late inning changes when he completes the story 10, 15, 20 years from now. At that time, there will probably already be talks of another TV adaptation of the books and D&D’s version forgotten.

  150. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Why bring back an amazing actor to just mime her scenes?It seems like D&D have GRRMs end story straight from the turtles kraken so if LS is crucial to the overall story then it’ll be GRRM making some late inning changes when he completes the story 10, 15, 20 years from now.At that time, there will probably already be talks of another TV adaptation of the books and D&D’s version forgotten.

    Hello father.

  151. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: I think the decision to cut LS, if they do, has more to do with what the character is, than being against resurrection.

    You’re telling me the audience wouldn’t like the idea of Cat coming back to avenge the Starks? I can’t agree with that. Saving the big resurrection for Jon Snow is a sensible reason for cutting Lady Stoneheart. Beric and the Blackfish going after Frey’s is simply a conflict the Frey’s must deal with. Lady Stoneheart was the realization the Gods are out to punish the Freys. While I like Beric and Blackfish more than Lady Stoneheart as characters, the idea of a Frey facing Catelyn Stark for judgment is >>>>>>>>>>>> better than facing Beric and the Blackfish.

    Besides, the Brotherhood under Beric was about avoiding the taking of sides in the conflict. I question how the Blackfish simply showing up would all of the sudden make them want to hunt Freys.

  152. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach,

    Holy butthurt pizza fanboy, Batman! Just wait, they are coming, and they are going to be great.

  153. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    There are no gods. Just magic.

  154. Greenjones
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Have you heard any whispers about that Angela Sarafyan lady btw? Since yesterday’s deleted tweet or whatever it was?

  155. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Seriously though if they wanted to cast LS don’t waste the role on Michele, hire Linda Antonsson.

  156. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    I find it so amusing how you people bend over backwards going into full damage control over every bullshit omission and change D&D make.
    “O-Oh it’s better this way. GRRM didn’t know what he was doing when he wrote that.” Jeez. You don’t even know if these characters will be important later on and I very much doubt they do either.

    I hope she turns out to be a pivotal part of the story in later books and the show falls flat on its ass.

    Er, why would the show fall flat on its ass? Even if LS becomes important in the books, D&D can simply craft the show in a way that LS is unnecessary! The show must stand on its own merits, independent of the books.

    Look, love LS or not, it’s likely that she’s not very important in the books. My guess is that GRRM didn’t object to her exclusion, and may have even encouraged it. Those of you who think GRRM is sitting in a corner raging about how the show is raping his story are insane. GRRM is an integral part of the development of the show, in terms of both writing and production.

    In other words, if you hate the exclusion of LS, you may also want to blame GRRM!

  157. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones: Angela Sarafyan

    I missed that. What was the content of the tweet?

    She would be an absolutely perfect Sand Snake. I hope she’s in!

  158. Renly's Peach
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I’ve seen you desperately trying to sling shit towards GRRM for making the “mistake” of including Stoneheart, but have yet to see any reliable source on this. You gonna post some of that or just keep going on blind guesses and hopes?

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I didn’t expect anything different.
    Keep on shitposting strong.

  159. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: You’re telling me the audience wouldn’t like the idea of Cat coming back to avenge the Starks? I can’t agree with that. Saving the big resurrection for Jon Snow is a sensible reason for cutting Lady Stoneheart. Beric and the Blackfish going after Frey’s is simply a conflict the Frey’s must deal with. Lady Stoneheart was the realization the Gods are out to punish the Freys. While I like Beric and Blackfish more than Lady Stoneheart as characters, the idea of a Frey facing Catelyn Start for judgment is >>>>>>>>>>>> better than facing Beric and the Blackfish.

    Besides, the Brotherhood under Beric was about avoiding the taking of sides in the conflict. I question how the Blackfish simply showing up would all of the sudden make them want to hunt Freys.

    The Stark children and/or the Tully survivors should avenge the Starks (and the dead Tullys), not an undead Cat. Her story is over. Let her children and her family have the spotlight.

    That’s my main problem with LS. It’s not that I hate resurrection. It’s that I feel like she represents a story regression. We’re moving forward with the new generation of Starks, and then she pulls us back into the mud of the earlier parts of the story.

    I like the “fresh start” feeling that the end of season 4 gives, and I hope that carries through season 5.

  160. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    The gist was she would play a character close to Stannis, but the source was reportedly a friend of her brother or something like that. Not sure it can be trusted… Seemed sketchy.

    I agree though, great Sand Snake…. Not sure on a role close to Stannis she would fit as well though!

  161. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Seriously though if they wanted to cast LS don’t waste the role on Michele, hire Linda Antonsson.

    Yes because a role like Stonheart is beneath an actress who’s currently staring as a generic villain on 24.

  162. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Rygar’s Magic Willy: Yes because a role like Stonheart is beneath an actress who’s currently staring as a generic villain on 24.

    My point was that for once I’d like to hear Linda shut up.

  163. sens
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    I find it so amusing how you people bend over backwards going into full damage control over every bullshit omission and change D&D make.
    “O-Oh it’s better this way. GRRM didn’t know what he was doing when he wrote that.” Jeez. You don’t even know if these characters will be important later on and I very much doubt they do either.

    I hope she turns out to be a pivotal part of the story in later books and the show falls flat on its ass.

    You do realize that D&D know how every story arc ends, all the way up to the end of DoS? Right?

    Only a week or so ago they even confirmed in an interview that they have talked extensively to George about how the story goes, and that they will continue to do so? They even said the conclusion for the entire ASOIAF was 100% satisfying, further proving that they probably know A LOT more than you and I about which characters are important and how to adjust the show without writing themselves into corners.

  164. Marty
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    I liked the LS chapter in SoS more than the red wedding, Dracarys, etc… The whole atmosphere later in the Riverlands with Freys and Lannisters decorating the trees like lawn ornaments was awesome. The little hope of payback for the Starks when she’s introduced is great, only have it to turn bitter later when she starts going after “good guys” like Brienne & Pod. I want LS to get her revenge, I don’t want her to kill Jaime, who I used to think was a douche but now like. I think her imagery, atmosphere, and potential are excellent additions to the story and will be majorly disappointed if she’s cut.

  165. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I was about to follow up on your joke but realized that mine was waaaay too dark so I decided not to write it

  166. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: My point was that for once I’d like to hear Linda shut up.

    How dare you attempt to silence my future wife, no more erections for you!

  167. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Marty,

    We are assuming she is cut

  168. barak
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Vin Sidious: Having said that, the Lady Stoneheart reveal is one of THE hallmark moments of the series so far, probably top 10, I would say. It doesn’t matter if the character doesn’t appear much, or won’t have much to do in the grand scheme. THAT MOMENT is simply awesome. One of those handful of book scenes that readers wait literal years to see translated to screen.(Hence all the caterwauling over its omission in S4.) The showrunners being the fans that they are, I have a hard time believing they could cut this scene and this character completely.

    THAT MOMENT. Really, that’s all there is to the character, a single shocking moment, after which she basically does nothing interesting. (No, she’s not an integral part of Brienne’s story, anything she does any other vengeful Stark/Tully/etc. can do, too.) It’s bad in the books, but it would be even worse on TV – imagine the show introducing a character like LS and then doing nothing with her for two seasons. It’s not worth it. No “shock moment” is worth this.

  169. ramsayreek
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Mike,

    Well we haven’t finished their arc in the books yet, and the show has already shown us that they can come to the same end point but take a different route, so don’t jump to conclusions yet.

  170. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    The gist was she would play a character close to Stannis, but the source was reportedly a friend of her brother or something like that. Not sure it can be trusted… Seemed sketchy.

    I agree though, great Sand Snake…. Not sure on a role close to Stannis she would fit as well though!

    Thanks! Unless they are casting Mance’s wildling wife, I have no idea why a woman her age would be “close to Stannis…”

    Unless the person was confused, and she’s playing fake Arya…There are some striking similarities between Angela Sarafyan’s face and Maisie’s, so that’s not entirely impossible…

    Wild speculation based on hearsay is fun! :-)

  171. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Have you heard any whispers about that Angela Sarafyan lady btw? Since yesterday’s deleted tweet or whatever it was?

    As far as I can tell, there never was a tweet. Someone came over here and announced a rumor, but refuses to link us or tell us anything more, won’t say who allegedly tweeted anything to begin with. It’s completely sketchy.

  172. matt v.
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    my theory: there was no point of introducing her in season 4 just to kill some freys or whatever. D&D maybe wait for book 6 where she have a much bigger role, so they can show it on the show, and have much more sense to introduce her, having more to do. My bet is S5e1 ending we will have her. They wont spoil of course and say she will be in it. They made a lot of reference for her appearing this season, they wouldnt do that if she wont appear. So calm down, it will be a suprise for sullied and unsullied, and everyone will be happy…

  173. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Magic that included the resurrection of Catelyn Stark.

    R’hllor may be the equivalent of Brynden Rivers sitting in a volcano in Old Valyria, but someone or something is feeding Melisandre visions in the fire…not just magic. Otherwise the eating of bread and salt for protection is completely pointless to include.

    ArgonathofBraavos,
    So the fact D&D keep talking about 7 seasons while GRRM is talking 10 seasons…GRRM must be cool with everything D&D are doing. I don’t think so. GRRM sold the rights and him being a part of the show gives him a voice, but it doesn’t give him final say.

  174. David Thomas
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I have started enjoying Game of Thrones much more since I let go of any expectations of what the show should be like. D&D have earned my complete trust. I now feel strongly that they understand ASOIAF, they are staying true to the spirit, characters, primary plot, and even many subplots.

    In the two weeks between episodes 7 and 8, I binge-watched (for the first time) the entire four seasons over a few days. WOW. It’s SO cohesive, and little knits that I was picking at the time turned out to be very smart decisions in the long-term.

    So I have let go of any expectations that I’ll see LS, and I’m completely fine with that. If they want to pleasantly surprise me with her later, I’ll be all the happier as a viewer by teh surprise. If they decided to pull those plot threads together in a different way, I’ll get to enjoy that for what it is.

    I have enjoyed seasons 3 and 4 much more than seasons 1 and 2, in part because I look forward to being surprised by something new. The Brienne/Hound fight was absolutely fantastic, in part because I never bothered to try to figure out how it was going to work out, why it happened that way, or where things had to go from there to get “the plot back on track.”

    So, I watch GoT like I watched Breaking Bad, one episode at a time, not knowing what’s coming, and it’s SO MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE.

  175. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know why anyone can trust a person that wrote Troy and the first Wolverine movie. Or who created that abysmal Yara scene in S4.

  176. Tatters
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    Dragons man, dragons are cheap.
    Dead people are norm.

  177. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Magic that included the resurrection of Catelyn Stark.

    R’hllor may be the equivalent of Brynden Rivers sitting in a volcano in Old Valyria, but someone or something is feeding Melisandre visions in the fire…not just magic. Otherwise the eating of bread and salt for protection is completely pointless to include.

    ArgonathofBraavos,
    So the fact D&D keep talking about 7 seasons while GRRM is talking 10 seasons…GRRM must be cool with everything D&D are doing. I don’t think so. GRRM sold the rights and him being a part of the show gives him a voice, but it doesn’t give him final say.

    I know it doesn’t give him final say. In any event, just because D&D are saying 7 seasons, that doesn’t mean its their ideal choice. GRRM is simply espousing his ideal choice!

    Might GRRM have a problem with certain elements of the show? Sure! But he also seems quite pleased with it in general, given the degree to which he promotes it with positivity and enthusiasm.

  178. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: The Stark children and/or the Tully survivors should avenge the Starks (and the dead Tullys), not an undead Cat. Her story is over. Let her children and her family have the spotlight.
    That’s my main problem with LS. It’s not that I hate resurrection. It’s that I feel like she represents a story regression. We’re moving forward with the new generation of Starks, and then she pulls us back into the mud of the earlier parts of the story.

    I disagree. The idea of there being a curse against those whom violate Guest Rights falls flat if you remove all magic and simply have the relatives exact revenge. The Frey’s knew they would be hated. Lady Stoneheart leaves no doubt the Gods are punishing them for their crime. Anything else doesn’t have the same weight behind it.
    Talisa replacing Stoneheart would be fine. Blackfish coming after them doesn’t have that “we are cursed” vibe that I liked from the Stoneheart character.

  179. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Rygar’s Magic Willy:
    I don’t know why anyone can trust a person that wrote Troy and the first Wolverine movie. Or who created that abysmal Yara scene in S4.

    Er, you do realize that blockbuster franchises usually take writers’ scripts and chop them all to hell, right?

  180. Tatters
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Rygar’s Magic Willy,

    Cogman didnt write troy.
    Benioff didnt write that wolwerine movie, thats some bullshit thats overblown out of context.

  181. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Rygar’s Magic Willy,

    Cogman wrote the Yara scene. I liked ‘Troy’, and ‘Wolverine’ was re-written by other writers, and Benioff himself has mocked that work. Why not mention ‘City Of Of Thieves’,'The 25th Hour’, and ‘Game Of Thrones’ on that list?

  182. Chaser
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    At this point, the show should change its name from now on to “Adventures of Lame added Monologues, Mustache twirling and Character tropes, created by D&D” *may or may not have been inspired by a book series by some guy.

  183. Rygar's Magic Willy
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Rygar’s Magic Willy,

    Cogman wrote the Yara scene. I liked ‘Troy’, and ‘Wolverine’ was re-written by other writers, and Benioff himself has mocked that work. Why not mention ‘City Of Of Thieves’,’The 25th Hour’, and ‘Game Of Thrones’ on that list?

    Did Cogman write the Yara scene of his freewill or were David and Dan standing behind him with a crossbow aimed at his head?

    I’d do anything to see Cogman become the show runner.

    PS: I actually like Troy but I would classify it as a guilty pleasure.

  184. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Might GRRM have a problem with certain elements of the show? Sure! But he also seems quite pleased with it in general, given the degree to which he promotes it with positivity and enthusiasm

    You think the guy who was willing to sell water damaged books is going to shoot his cash cow? GRRM is a professional and understood what he was signing up for. Of course he will be positive and enthusiastic about making boatloads of money.

  185. Brodor
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    I want some season 5 casting news damn it!

  186. Carl Drago
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    The more I think about that idea the more I really like it as an alternative, if the showrunners are really set on no LS. Bringing Beric back means that Arya’s entire storyline in s3 wasnt a complete waste, and as of right now they introduced great characters like Thoros, Anguy, and the Blackfish and then just never went anywhere with them. Having a vengeful Blackfish allied with the BWB is a change I could get behind

  187. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Rygar’s Magic Willy,

    Cogman wrote the scene. He also plans the season out with D&D. Sure, he doesn’t have the final say, but he is involved in the process of mapping out each season. I like Cogman, but in my opinion Benioff is the best writer on the show, excluding GRRM.

  188. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    So…you don’t respect d&d or grrm…why the f*** are you even here?!

  189. Cumsprite
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    Renly’s Peach:
    You don’t even know if these characters will be important later on and I very much doubt they do either.

    I hope she turns out to be a pivotal part of the story in later books and the show falls flat on its ass.

    Welp, you keep telling yourself that if it helps you cuddle with your Dark Sword miniatures at night. That D&D didn’t ask about UnCat during their numerous sessions with Martin is inconceivable. They asked. He told them. Wormfood.

  190. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: IMO, the show writers and producers ARE smarter and better than the author.

    1. George Martin creates ASOIAF
    2. D&D read ASOIAF
    3. D&D ask George Martin if they can use his story.

    {M}

  191. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Yes, but none of those are characters we already know!

    The audience is already familiar with Catelyn Stark, so it’s not like they have to spend time introducing ANOTHER new face. This is a face we know!

  192. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite,

    Something about Linda. FHRITP.

  193. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: You think the guy who was willing to sell water damaged books is going to shoot his cash cow? GRRM is a professional and understood what he was signing up for. Of course he will be positive and enthusiastic about making boatloads of money.

    Obviously. But he’s beyond just positive and professional. He uses superlatives all the time, and has on more than one occasion stated that changes made for the show improve on his own books (Shae and Ygritte, for example).

    So I think his public feelings about the show go beyond PR.

  194. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Hey, WiC could you guys maybe add an editing option (or at least a delete post option) for phones? I seem to recall being able to do that before all the site updates.

  195. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark: 1. George Martin creates ASOIAF
    2. D&D read ASOIAF
    3. D&D ask George Martin if they can use his story.

    {M}

    Really? I though this was an original story.

    My point is only that I believe D&D (and a few of the other show writers’) are generally better at writing dialogue and sketching characters than GRRM is. Not by a long shot, but enough that I find it noticeable.

    ASOIAF are a great set of books, I agree. But I don’t think GRRM is as an amazing writer as many here do. He is incredibly creative, a pretty good world-builder, and occasionally infuses nuance into his characters, but he falls into a lot of amateur traps.

    But enough of that. I like GRRM. I just like D&D better.

  196. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Way off base bud. I respect both D&D and GRRM. I disrespect the conclusion that GRRM is quite pleased with the show based on his level of enthusiasm. I respect him even more if he does have problems with the adaptation and is keeping his mouth shut to reporters about it.

    If D&D have a plan for manifesting the curse against the Frey’s is some other way, I’m fine with cutting Stoneheart. Just because I respect D&D doesn’t prevent me from pointing out when I think they are potentially making a mistake.

    A friend who kisses your ass all the time doesn’t respect you.

  197. Elwood
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    I predict we’ll eventually see the character but not until Season 6, assuming she does something in “Winds of Winter.” In order to include her in Season 5, D&D would have to invent a lot of new material for her in the vein of Craster’s Keep in Season 4 – because she only has two scenes so far in the books. She hangs some Freys in one, and Brienne and Pod in the other. Later we see Brienne working for her, but she doesn’t appear again. The earliest she could be introduced would be late in Season 5 in a cliffhanger. She would never have been introduced in Season 4 because there’s nothing for her to do in Season 5 except hang Brienne. If she has a major role down the road, she can be introduced at that point pretty easily. The Reeds were not introduced in Season 2 for the same reason – they didn’t have a role in the story yet. When they mattered, they were introduced.

  198. fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Obviously. But he’s beyond just positive and professional. He uses superlatives all the time, and has on more than one occasion stated that changes made for the show improve on his own books (Shae and Ygritte, for example).
    So I think his public feelings about the show go beyond PR.

    Those changes were improvements. I would expect a professional to perform exactly the same and hide his true feelings.

    My only point was you can’t claim GRRM is fine with this change base on the evidence you provided. And being a professional, George should never let it be known if he does have a problem with this change. As you say, he may have even suggested this change. We simply don’t know.

  199. ace
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    We may think she is important right now, but probably, after D&D asked GRRM about the end game of LS subplot, they found that it lead nowhere like the Tansy or Quentyn subplot.

  200. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    The biggest difference to me is D&D have knowledge of the entire story beforehand and can choose which aspects they want to include based on their desired storylines. They can streamline things and build a more linear overall narrative.

    Of course the flipside of that is D&D lose many of the incredible character moments and gems that are fun, but do not necessarily contribute to the greater story very much, if at all.

    I think both parties do well at what they do.

  201. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    That message was actually supposed to be replying to someone else, must have clicked the wrong post. Can’t edit or delete on phones.

  202. Eleanor
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    I’m happy about it!

  203. Dolorous Ned
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    I never read that bit as the Gods punishing the Freys. Lady Stoneheart and the BWB punish them. I don’t think literal Gods exist in ASOIAF. The Freys violating guest right is important, because people believe they crossed a sacred line and noone will trust them anymore.

  204. Chad Brick
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    I find it odd that people keep claiming that Stoneheart has little impact on the books without adding the huge caveat “so far”. It is obvious that Stoneheart, Brienne, and Jamie are going to collide early in Winds of Winter, and almost certain that not all three are going to survive the encounter. None will survive unchanged.

    Unless D&D go complete fan-fiction for Jaime and Brienne for the next season and beyond, leaving out Stoneheart guts their storyline completely.

  205. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: I don’t think GRRM is as an amazing writer as many here do. He is incredibly creative, a pretty good world-builder, and occasionally infuses nuance into his characters, but he falls into a lot of amateur traps.

    Fair enough my lord,
    I think D&D take advantage of the their opportunity to “show” instead of “tell” on certain occasions. Example-Sack of Mereen: Original book version, epic. Show version, too hard to do. Show version, grew worm speech, epic. Unsullied have brains? (D&D fleshing out the characters)

    I value creativity/world engineering over dialogue (I still give George all the credit for the dialogue, he created the characters). Both are essential however you need the former first. We all agree that George has masterminded an extraordinary and expansive network of characters and settings. Without his creativity (yes, obviously) we have no show.

    My questions to you are what are the “amateur traps” George falls into and what are specific instances on the show that you feel D&D did better?

    {M}

  206. Brodor
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Where is your casting news for next season?

  207. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Chad Brick,

    That is the only worry I would have with cutting LS. I don’t care about the actual character, but I do hope whatever they do with Jaime and Brienne works.

  208. kisses
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    The LS reveal was just so sweet in the books, and I love Michelle Fairley. I told my unsullied boyfriend about it after the finale after he kept asking (bad me, I know). He said that would have been epic revenge for the Starks; I think the viewers still want revenge for the Starks! I’m still hoping for the character…

  209. Easteros bunny
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    I’m calling bs on ls

    Isn’t she kinda important to brienne, pod and Jamie’s story line? And what was the point of all that shit in season three wit the brotherhood? They have already set up that resurrection is possible.

    I knew they wouldn’t have the balls to show her at the end.

    That ending with Arya on the boat was straight up disney! The show has sold out completely, sold out to hipsters that don’t know any better.

  210. Cumsprite
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Chad Brick:
    I find it odd that people keep claiming that Stoneheart has little impact on the books without adding the huge caveat “so far”. It is obvious that Stoneheart, Brienne, and Jamie are going to collide early in Winds of Winter, and almost certain that not all three are going to survive the encounter. None will survive unchanged.

    Unless D&D go complete fan-fiction for Jaime and Brienne for the next season and beyond, leaving out Stoneheart guts their storyline completely.

    As to the larger story arcs in the books (who sits the iron throne, what of the White Walkers/Dany’s dragons/etc.) the hypothetical meeting between UnCat, Brienne and Jaime are popcorn farts in a hurricane.

  211. Balon01
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    Easteros bunny:
    I knew they wouldn’t have the balls to show her atthe end.

    Yeah, they don’t have balls for a cheap shock moment.

  212. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always been intrigued by the darkness and possibly misguided rage surrounding LS. I don’t believe for a second that GRRM “made a mistake” with her resurrection. If anything, GRRM has underutilized her presence thus far in the ASoI&F tale…the possibilities for LS in TWoW may be short-lived but are still fascinating.

    Like CH, LS is another conundrum that D&D have reworked (not really wonderfully but oh well) but if she is really out, hopefully the BwB via Beric/Thoros and Nymeria come into focus again.

    And since LS will not appear, I think we are now fairly assured of Mel pulling a Thoros and keeping a certain dear character alive.

  213. Ghost
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    The way that Graves spoiled who/what LS is in that interview, for anyone who didn’t know, makes me think she 100% is cut. Why not just say he doesn’t know if she will happen instead of specifically saying that LS=zombie Cat? That just seemed weird to me.

    I have no idea what they’re planning with Brianne and Pod now. I guess the BWB could fill in, but the entire story will be changed. With the whole Jaime in Dorne thing, she has no one to go get for them and his whole Riverlands thing looks cut too. I wonder if we ever see the Blackfish again.

  214. jentario
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Chad Brick,

    Jamie is going to Dorne.

  215. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Brodor,

    I don’t think I’m doing a casting, speculation and rumor post this year… Thanks for asking though!

    It takes a lot of time to update it and I’m not sure I can commit to doing so… I do have a lot of my personal casting speculations done though, so things may change, I may do one and just not update it as frequently.

    Either way though, Winter-Is-Coming and Ours_is_the_Fury in particular keeps everyone up to date on the casting info quite nicely.

  216. Joe Frost
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    She said “Yeah, the character’s dead. She’s dead.”

    Lady Stoneheart is dead so she’s not lying! People on these forums take things far too seriously and read far too much into things. Do you really think she’d start talking about the details of negotiations for casting and babbling about plotlines for a yet to be introduced character?
    Hold your horses and wait for something more concrete before venting your spleens.
    If she is removed then I have to admit I’ll be pissed as they’re making pointless changes again. You’ve stuck to the source material pretty truely so far and it’s worked well so don’t fuck about with it now! I remain hopefuly that they haven’t cut anything or anyone that major out so far. So LS , Victarion, Euron, Arianne and Young Griff should all be in next season…hopefully with Griff and Penny.

  217. Monica
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    I am extremely disappointed.

  218. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Easteros bunny:
    I’m calling bs on ls

    Isn’t she kinda important to brienne, pod and Jamie’s story line? And what was the point of all that shit in season three wit the brotherhood? They have already set up that resurrection is possible.

    I knew they wouldn’t have the balls to show her atthe end.

    That ending with Arya on the boat was straight up disney! The show has sold out completely, sold out to hipsters that don’t know any better.

    I have heard this exhortation of “Disney!” far too many times now. What the hell does that even mean? A person sailing on a ship is “Disney?” Does that make every moment in history when someone embarked on a boat voyage, and stood at the prow, a Disney moment? In that case, history sucks. It’s way too Disney!

    Ridiculous. IMO, it was a perfect season ender. Arya has spent the past four seasons in danger, in Westeros, and mostly in captivity, and she’s leaving all alone and heading East towards the continent where another major plotline has been occurring. It’s a powerful mix of hope, adventure and uncertainty. And beyond Arya, it symbolizes where the whole story is. A number of people are headed into uncharted waters, from the Wall all the way down to King’s Landing. Season 5 is going to be something completely different!

    This whole “if it’s not dark, it’s not smart or cool” movement has got to die someday. Cynicism and nihilism is not the only philosophical currency in the world.

  219. David The Grey
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Sword of the Morning: At this point, the healthiest perspective for those who are both fans of the books and the show is to assume that Lady Stoneheart is cut from the show.

    Emphasis on healthiest! I was going OK if it was just delayed, but now I’ll be very sad. Time to try some of those drink recipes that have been posted. :(

  220. Carne
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Maybe just casting speculation without the rumors, news etc? That’s at least what I liked most about your season 3 speculation :)

    I enjoy seeing the different actors you suggest!

  221. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: Those changes were improvements. I would expect a professional to perform exactly the same and hide his true feelings.

    My only point was you can’t claim GRRM is fine with this change base on the evidence you provided. And being a professional, George should never let it be known if he does have a problem with this change. As you say, he may have even suggested this change. We simply don’t know.

    Points well taken. I often harp on about uncertainty, and the unfortunate tendency of fandom to make absolute judgments in the face of uncertainty. We simply do not know what GRRM’s plans for, and opinions of, LS are. And we don’t know if he is supportive of her exclusion from the show, or miffed about it. That’s why it’s ridiculous for us to claim that D&D and GRRM are at odds about this, and to hope that GRRM makes LS out to be a crucial part of the story in spite of the showrunners. From what little evidence we do have, I suspect that GRRM is likely okay with this change. But as you say, we just don’t know. I can only speculate.

  222. Monica
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    My extreme disappointment is shared by many other book fans…

  223. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    deekan,
    No problem. :)

    Dolorous Ned:
    fuelpagan,

    I never read that bit as the Gods punishing the Freys. Lady Stoneheart and the BWB punish them. I don’t think literal Gods exist in ASOIAF. The Freys violating guest right is important, because people believe they crossed a sacred line and noone will trust them anymore.

    The resurrection of LS is the curse. Any Frey seeing LS would know it was a curse for their actions. Simply being hung by the Blackfish wouldn’t strike fear in the Frey’s as someone whom they killed coming back to life would. The gods really existing isn’t the important part. The Frey’s thinking the gods have cursed them is important IMO. That’s what Lady Stoneheart brings that the plain old BwB doesn’t. If this curse is manifested in some other way that strikes fear in the Frey’s, then I’m fine with cutting LS.

  224. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Whatever the case, I think the Blackfish will be back. Roose Bolton’s observation at the end of season 3 that the Blackfish escaped was NOT a throwaway. Love that actor, and can’t wait to see him in revenge mode.

    However, I do think it may have been a mistake to completely excise the Frey’s from season 4 (given that they were instrumental in eliminating the entire Stark household and most of his loyal bannermen). A few scenes early on, perhaps with Roose, would have been enough to remind viewers that he controls the Riverlands. The comment to that effect from that one farmer to Arya and the Hound was not enough.

  225. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    agent777: lord of the

    Well, the Lord of the Rings films cut loads of characters, some of whom were fan favorites (and pretty influential to the plot). Bombadil, Radagast, Fatty Bolger, the Dunedain, the Dunlendings, Ghan-Buri-Ghan, Erkenbrand, all the non-Rohirrim allies of Gondor, the Prince of Dol Amroth, Bergil, etc.

    I guess I have a problem with rabid purism about ASOIAF partly because of the Lord of the Rings experience. IMO, Jackson’s LOTR films are abysmal interpretations of brilliant and timeless source material. The films depressed me on a number of levels (and the Hobbit films are barely worth mentioning). So when I see D&D treat ASOIAF with significantly more care and nuance, on the level of both writing and directing, it’s difficult for me to nitpick. To me, they’ve really done GRRM proud, while Jackson soiled a masterpiece.

  226. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    For the record, my magic willy would never spew out such filth as stated in the above posts. Splash!

  227. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Yo aragonath,

    given any thought to the homework I gave you? Probly gonna take you a few days

    {M}

  228. Rygar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Well, the Lord of the Rings films cut loads of characters, some of whom were fan favorites (and pretty influential to the plot). Bombadil, Radagast, Fatty Bolger, the Dunedain, the Dunlendings, Ghan-Buri-Ghan, Erkenbrand, all the non-Rohirrim allies of Gondor, the Prince of Dol Amroth, Bergil, etc.

    I guess I have a problem with rabid purism about ASOIAF partly because of the Lord of the Rings experience. IMO, Jackson’s LOTR films are abysmal interpretations of brilliant and timeless source material. The films depressed me on a number of levels (and the Hobbit films are barely worth mentioning). So when I see D&D treat ASOIAF with significantly more care and nuance, on the level of both writing and directing, it’s difficult for me to nitpick. To me, they’ve really done GRRM proud, while Jackson soiled a masterpiece.

    Jackson is a terrible director IMO , but JRRs works are in need of serious editing and alterations in order to adapt to film. Who the fuck would want to watch two hours of songs about the Entwives? Fatty Bolger? Seriously? He was important for one reason. Sure the attack on Buckland is some of the scariest and creepiest shit I’ve read in fantasy (traumatized as a 12 year old first reading it), but it’s a scene that would slow down the narrative as Frodo and Co. already moved on. Anyway, we got the attack on Bree, so adding Buckland would be redundant.

  229. Darquemode
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Carne,

    Thanks!
    Maybe I will put something together this weekend…

  230. The Dragon Demands
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    They’re just building up tension over it so we’ll be surprised when it actually happens. Like when Doctor Who returned and they weren’t sure if the Daleks would actually return (due to legal issues) which only built up massive hype for when they truly did return.

  231. Ren Snow
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    Or perhaps we will get Blackfish Stoneheart

  232. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    This is a bummer, man. I will remain hopeless and delusional roaming the riverlands in search of a mysterious woman with a hooded cloak. Fuck

    Really hoping this is some elaborate ruse.

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Get fucked with all your talk of “Rabid Puriism” and the “unfortunate tendencies of fandom”…..

    While you’re at it, take some of your own advice and get over the LOTR debacle. Its fucking tired, man. Though i agree that Jacksons treatment basically sucked, It’s old news and this is new shit coming to light about GAME OF FUCKIN THRONES.

  233. TheAmir
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Linda,

    Pretty much how I’ve felt since about mid-season 3. Some of the changes are probably necessary for TV, but some of them are like bad fanfic and utterly -stupid-. No LS is pretty stupid.

  234. strokememarge
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    I am wondering if Bran is now the one who will terrorize the Frey’s, he can warg into all manner of beasts and go crazy, think birds, rats, dogs, cats and of course chickens too.

  235. Bob Dobalina
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Nick_Scryer:
    Disappointing but will make for interesting different story lines for Jaime, Brienne and the BwB going forward. Wonder how it’s all going to come together now.

    I suspect Jamie is replacing Arys Oakheart and going to Dorne to look up on Myrcella. Pod and Brienne are going to continue to the Vale and get entangled in Sansa’s storyline.

  236. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister:
    This is a bummer, man.I will remain hopeless and delusional roaming the riverlands in search of a mysterious woman with a hooded cloak.Fuck

    Really hoping this is some elaborate ruse.

    Brothers in arms, dude. Here’s to delusional roaming in search of undeads w/hoodies, Nymeria or anyone who’ll listen. BF, where the fuck are you?

    It’s too late for LS. They had their chance, but they chose instead to dazzle us with Yara’s misadventures. Maybe a cool CH reveal in S5, perhaps? (fingers-crossed)

    Btw, Biter is not dead (so don’t do a curtain call for him). He lives in Uruguay!

  237. Kingslayer
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Yeah…no. This literally means nothing. She could have been told not to say anything about the character in the future; regardless of whether or not D&D were planning to bring her back as LS. I’ll continue to remain optimistic that we’ll see it.

  238. Kingslayer
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:

    It’s too late for LS. They had their chance, but they chose instead to dazzle us with Yara’s misadventures. Maybe a cool CH reveal in S5, perhaps? (fingers-crossed)

    Hardly. Brienne & Pod are still on the road, and they’ve already missed Arya, so their adventures will continue. They could run into BwB and LS still. Not sure where you got that it’s too late. It’s not.

  239. Rebecca
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Sigh. I am pretty unhappy about this. LS was one of the things I was most looking forward to seeing.

  240. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    Kingslayer,

    Believe it or not, I do respect your optimism. Please keep it up…I have withdrawn into AFfC and sought comfort in the retelling…

  241. Brodor
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    I concur with Carne

  242. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    TheAmir:
    Linda,

    Pretty much how I’ve felt since about mid-season 3. Some of the changes are probably necessary for TV, but some of them are like bad fanfic and utterly -stupid-. No LS is pretty stupid.

    By what logic is no LS “pretty stupid?” I can understand liking LS, being intrigued by the notion of a curse on the Freys, and wanting her in the story. But I cannot understand how her omission is “stupid.” Help me out here.

  243. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister:
    This is a bummer, man.I will remain hopeless and delusional roaming the riverlands in search of a mysterious woman with a hooded cloak.Fuck

    Really hoping this is some elaborate ruse.

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Get fucked with all your talk of “Rabid Puriism” and the “unfortunate tendencies of fandom”…..

    While you’re at it, take some of your own advice and get over the LOTR debacle.Its fucking tired, man.Though i agree that Jacksons treatment basically sucked, It’s old news and this is new shit coming to light about GAME OF FUCKIN THRONES.

    Please don’t address me directly ever again.

    Thank you.

    - AoB

  244. Elenar
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Nick Larter,

    Did you come up with this purely to make me have a mini-stroke of horror at the thought? Because that’s what happened.

  245. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Jackson is a terrible director IMO , but JRRs works are in need of serious editing and alterations in order to adapt to film.Who the fuck would want to watch two hours of songs about the Entwives?Fatty Bolger?Seriously?He was important for one reason.Sure the attack on Buckland is some of the scariest and creepiest shit I’ve read in fantasy (traumatized as a 12 year old first reading it), but it’s a scene that would slow down the narrative as Frodo and Co. already moved on. Anyway, we got the attack on Bree, so adding Buckland would be redundant.

    I wasn’t arguing that Jackson should have kept all those characters in. I largely support those omissions. I was just referring back to someone’s previous post about the LS omission being unacceptable because of the length of the series. In fact, I would have supported further editing and cutting, as some of the stuff was bloated (such as Helm’s Deep, which I would have reduced to a much quicker sequence).

    I dislike the Jackson films because of his directing style, and the terrible scripts. To me, D&D, the team of script-writers (including GRRM) and the team of directors, are light years ahead of Peter, Fran and Philippa.

  246. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    ace:
    We may think she is important right now, but probably, after D&D asked GRRM about the end game of LS subplot, they found that it lead nowhere like the Tansy or Quentyn subplot.

    Am I the only one who sees that Quentyn was the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east. What good are the prophecies if we don’t include the parts of the story which fulfills them? Another character my take on this role, but we will have a Martell traveling to try and marry Dany.

  247. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Yo aragonath,

    given any thought to the homework I gave you? Probly gonna take you a few days

    {M}

    Sorry, Mikken. I must have missed something. What homework?

  248. Michel
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Since in the show Brienne has already seen and “killed” the Hound, have you guys imagined, if D&D do the Quiet Isle scene, how the gravedigger scene will change? Like, there is Sandor Clegane that found peace doing his work alone and them he suddenly sees the woman who fucked him, when in the books, he doesn’t have idea who Brienne is.

  249. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Mikken’s Mark: what are the “amateur traps” George falls into and what are specific instances on the show that you feel D&D did better?

    To put this into context it is a serious question and I am looking for YOUR opinion

  250. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Please don’t address me directly ever again.

    Thank you.

    - AoB

    Well, that was clever, but this is the Internet. It will take more than a polite request to deter me.

    Look, I understand your position on the matter of LOTR, and i generally agree. But please, does every thread have to come to this? Why must you take every opportunity to compare these two epic fantasy authors and then contrast their respective adaptations. The game of whose better than who gets old, rarely provides anything useful, and should be left wayyyyyy back at creative writing 101. I respect your voice, you are clearly thinking it through…. But damn. Let it go.

    Oh, and Lady Stoneheart just farted in Lady Goldberry’s general direction.

  251. Maverick
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    I feel bad for Michelle Fairley. She is trying to promote her work and people just jump on her ass about Lady Stoneheart all the time. I wouldn’t blame her if she decides never to return to the role, give the lady some breathing room. Talk to me goose.

  252. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: By what logic is no LS “pretty stupid?” I can understand liking LS, being intrigued by the notion of a curse on the Freys, and wanting her in the story. But I cannot understand how her omission is “stupid.” Help me out here.

    I’m not going to speak for TheAmir, but I can list a few things that are worth discussing (although please note that I no longer carry the torch):

    1) They showed GreyRobb but never showed Cat’s disposal (a bit of a tease)

    2) There was Brienne’s vow from S2 and her continued reaffirming it throughout S3 & S4. (to me, that is the single most interesting aspect of Brienne’s arc…how she “upholds” her vow given LS in the picture)

    3) I always thought Thoros/Beric was foreshadowing…and they made a BIG deal of Beric being “tired” of being resurrected in S3′s “Kissed by Fire”. (but it is probably just foreshadowing for Mel’s actions now)

    4) Cat being mentioned throughout S4 by various characters, including Arya (I thought the darkness within Arya would be physically represented by an LS re-appearance…as if Arya willed her dark revenge list to life)

    5) Valar Morghulis (All Men must die) WTF? Wasn’t that a tease? I was really hoping that the season motto would lead to a woman resurrected. (although I admit that I was happy that the last scene was “valar morghulis”)

    6) Just the sheer “What the Fuck!” moment of it all! It would have been a great gift to the Sullied. There would have been much cheering throughout the land.

    7) A secret contract with MF would have been cool. And the LH Instagram hint coming true would have been even cooler. Instead…we got trolled.

    Oh well. We’ll survive.

    Edit: 8) Oh yeah…as you stated, the Frey curse regarding guest rite violation and all…sort of a big deal.

  253. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Good question.

    By “amateur traps” I am referring to a few things.

    First, GRRM’s obviously cookie-cutter approach to certain elements of his world. For example, GRRM seems to have copied and pasted the same descriptions of food and refreshments over and over again across the five books, not to mention the faux-Middle English he sometimes decides to use (“japes” is my least favorite overused word). You can tell that he knows very little about the historical progression of the English language, and isn’t that well-versed in European history, and that he’s mainly copying and pasting words and descriptions he learned from his historical “research.” An inability to seamlessly weave this kind of research into a story is a very common failure among lots of writers.

    The second trap he falls into, IMO, is a penchant for overdoing the “genre-busting” and “trope-busting” thing. GRRM has stated, over and over again, that he deliberately subverts these tropes because “that’s not what readers expect from fantasy!” To me, this emphasis on the shock value of a narrative (rather than an emphasis on the thematic sub-structure of a story) smacks of amateur showmanship. IMO, it makes his stories very enjoyable (and sometimes catahrtic) but he overdoes it, and I think that lessens the impact. The endless nihilist-tinted descriptions of brutality, etc, also become “stock” after a while.

    The third trap is what I call “One liner-itis.” He loves the one liners, and they often come off as goofy. Tyrion’s “he doesn’t shit gold after all” was uttered after he had just murdered his father and Shae, and while he was ALONE. A silly line which kills suspension of disbelief.

    The fourth trap is the truly awful softcore-porn descriptions of sexual encounters. Gag-worthy, IMO. Just poor, soap-opera level writing.

    The showrunners unfortunately replicate the fourth problem through the terrible “sexposition” scenes.

    The showrunners, through a combination of a more rounded characterization of multiple characters (the Red Viper, Shae, Jaime, Brienne, the Hound, etc), artful direction of dialogue scenes, fabrication of excellent “one on one” character-building conversations not from the books, and gorgeous cinematography, are able to elevate the material from the level of GRRM’s “low mimesis” to the occasional “high mimesis.”

    Something about the show seems less petty and mundane than the books. As if the truths explored in the show are more profound and consequential than those in the books.

    Not by a long shot, though. I still like the books a lot. I just respond better to the show.

  254. Doug
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    This honestly gives me little hope for quality if and when Benioff and Weiss have to start writing their own material from scratch with no more finished source material to go on as inspiration. I say this because if they had planned all along to cut this character than why did they even bother keeping and introducing the Brotherhood Without Banners and the Beric Dondarrion story? Why bother keeping the Brienne/Pod story? To introduced those stories and then not complete them with this character, then I really don’t know what to say. They’ve created willing plot holes and inconsistencies. I’m guessing we never see Thoros or the BWB again. So again, why bother introducing them?

  255. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Just me throwing stuff around in my head but:

    So, here is just a comparison from books to show. In the books LS has killed a few Frey’s, she has shown that she has zero f***s to give, and she is currently a direct threat to Jaime, Brienne and Podrick’s (and that other a-hole’s) health and general well-being. There are only to possible outcomes here, either Jaime (and other others) lives or he dies. Either ending is completely possible. Why? Because Jaime has seemingly reached the end of his arc or will by the time he meets her. He has redeemed himself on his journey, cut off his relationship with Cersei, even refusing to help her when she is in dire need, and he has kept his oath to Catelyn. Him going would be a poetic ending to his character. Buuut, that would be what we expect and not often does Martin go where we expect him to.

    Now, show Jaime had a very similar arc to the third season and seemed to redeem himself, but has been very conflicted this whole season and by the end of this fourth season he is nowhere near where Jaime is mentally by the end of the third book and still seems to be in a complex relationship with Cersei. This seems to be D&D’s intent. Believe or not they do have source material to draw and also (believe it or not) they are intelligent people that know where they are heading with these story arcs. They know that the logical destination for Brienne and Jaime is a clash back together where honor and oathkeeping is brought into question by a third party.

    Whether that third party is LS or some other vengeful spirit (Beric or Blackfish?) remains to be seen. But a clash is coming nonetheless. But Jaime is not ready for it yet and when Brienne does come across this third party we will not see her again most likely until the end of next season or beginning of the sixth season. D&D has never been ones to let characters disappear for long periods of time, case and point Theon. So Brienne would not run into this party until the beginning-mid season next year, when Jaime has almost reached a satisfying conclusion to his story arc. This season would have been too soon for her to meet up with the BwB.

    Anyways that was my ramblings, hopefully there is some sense to be made in there.

  256. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I’m not going to speak for TheAmir, but I can list a few things that are worth discussing (although please note that I no longer carry the torch):

    1) They showed GreyRobb but never showed Cat’s disposal (a bit of a tease)

    2) There was Brienne’s vow from S2 and her continued reaffirming it throughout S3 & S4. (to me, that is the single most interesting aspect of Brienne’s arc…how she “upholds” her vow given LS in the picture)

    3) I always thought Thoros/Beric was foreshadowing…and they made a BIG deal of Beric being “tired” of being resurrected in S3′s “Kissed by Fire”. (but it is probably just foreshadowing for Mel’s actions now)

    4) Cat being mentioned throughout S4 by various characters, including Arya (I thought the darkness within Arya would be physically represented by an LS re-appearance…as if Arya willed her dark revenge list to life)

    5) Valar Morghulis (All Men must die) WTF? Wasn’t that a tease? I was really hoping that the season motto would lead to a woman resurrected. (although I admit that I was happy that the last scene was “valar morghulis”)

    6) Just the sheer “What the Fuck!” moment of it all! It would have been a great gift to the Sullied. There would have been much cheering throughout the land.

    7) A secret contract with MF would have been cool. And the LH Instagram hint coming true would have been even cooler. Instead…we got trolled.

    Oh well. We’ll survive.

    Edit: 8) Oh yeah…as you stated, the Frey curse regarding guest rite violation and all…sort of a big deal.

    That’s a great list. You certainly carried the torch well for those arguing for her inclusion. Though I still think the reveal would have felt regressive, given the progression of the Stark children, I am almost convinced that her appearance would have been at least been pretty cool (though I’m less convinced that the implementation of her storyline could be delivered satisfactorily).

    But while you make a great argument for why LS could have been good for the story, it’s not an argument for why her omissions is “stupid.”

    I suppose it’s not thoughtful posters like you that I was addressing… :-)

  257. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    deekan:
    Just me throwing stuff around in my head but:

    So, here is just a comparison from books to show. In the books LS has killed a few Frey’s, she has shown that she has zero f***s to give, and she is currently a direct threat to Jaime, Brienne and Podrick’s (and that other a-hole’s) health and general well-being. There are only to possible outcomes here, either Jaime (and other others) lives or he dies. Either ending is completely possible. Why? Because Jaime has seemingly reached the end of his arc or will by the time he meets her. He has redeemed himself on his journey, cut off his relationship with Cersei, even refusing to help her when she is in dire need, and he has kept his oath to Catelyn. Him going would be a poetic ending to his character. Buuut, that would be what we expect and not often does Martin go where we expect him to.

    Now, show Jaime had a very similar arc to the third season and seemed to redeem himself, but has been very conflicted this whole season and by the end of this fourth season he is nowhere near where Jaime is mentally by the end of the third book and still seems to be in a complex relationship with Cersei. This seems to be D&D’s intent. Believe or not they do have source material to draw and also (believe it or not) they are intelligent people that know where they are heading with these story arcs. They know that the logical destination for Brienne and Jaime is a clash back together where honor and oathkeeping is brought into question by a third party.

    Whether that third party is LS or some other vengeful spirit (Beric or Blackfish?) remains to be seen. But a clash is coming nonetheless. But Jaime is not ready for it yet and when Brienne does come across this third party we will not see her again most likely until the end of next season or beginning of the sixth season. D&D has never been ones to let characters disappear for long periods of time, case and point Theon. So Brienne would not run into this party until the beginning-mid season next year, when Jaime has almost reached a satisfying conclusion to his story arc. This season would have been too soon for her to meet up with the BwB.

    Anyways that was my ramblings, hopefully there is some sense to be made in there.

    This. I think you’re onto something. Brienne and Jaime will meet (in season 5 or 6), and Brienne will have to choose between loyalty to Jaime and loyalty to Lady Stoneheart. Despite Fairley’s comments, I could see this happening.

    And in this context, an LS appearance at the end of season 4 would have been out of place. Brienne isn’t ready to meet her yet, and Jaime isn’t yet on his path to Brienne.

  258. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Interesting thoughts. Thx.

    What GRRM did in ADwD with regards to the Jaime-Brienne reunion was almost criminal. Just a few paragraphs of teaser that really should have been built up a bit more….and extended into the ultimate LS encounter before dropping the reader off the bus.

    I never really thought of Jaime’s arc as redemptive (as others have)….maybe progressive. In any case, I believe he has a role yet to play as a result of his LS-Brienne encounter.

    I wonder how this Dorne detour for Jaime (if speculation is correct) will contribute to his Riverlands/KL arc and what shape he’ll be in when he next meets Brienne in the show. Remember in S2 when Cat approached a chained Jaime with a dagger and the scene ended with the viewer thinking that she punished him? Will we ever get “part 2″ of that scene?

  259. Sam
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    davyJones:
    thats too bad. I see this happening a lot going forward,the show removing major events to make room for original story lines. A pity.

    Ugh. I’m not interested in an original storyline to be honest. I get things change, it is an adaption, but the major changes for an adaption should result from transferring the medium and compression – that’s it.

    I hate it when things get cut just for something that wasn’t as well written, if I dare say, fanfic like.

    I hope they don’t cut Stoneheart, but my hopes aren’t high anymore. I feel like that is a major OMG moment that you’d want transferred into the show.

  260. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    I suppose it’s not thoughtful posters like you that I was addressing… :-)

    Oh, I will still jibjab you on your Yara defense though. I think I got your goat on that one! :)

    Saruman lives!

  261. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Brother,

    I have heard the pack. They will avenge. I will remain hopeful a woman undead will emerge, though I fear you are right- the timing has passed.
    As to Yara’s misadventures, I had a bad feeling from moment she embarked on her hero journey in the Myhsa episode. Felt like an afterthought then, and the follow up… Well, followed that up with yet another afterthought. Hopefully Balons death does not establish a pattern in the Greyjoy world….

    I saw Biter! Damn! Did you see the Nigerian player’s arm explode? Where’s Moqorro when you need him?

    USA/Germany mañana.

  262. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    OT: Yes, the WC matches have been simply awesome. Hope you have been enjoying the games as well. Tomorrow’s US-Germany match is full of intrigue!

    The broken arm was insane. All the concussed heads too…and they still play on! Substitution is for ninnies! Enjoy, my wildling frenemy! :)

  263. Ser Hound
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    I’m calling it for the ending of season 5. Mark my words!

  264. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Thank you my lord.

    I still have to ask if you can expand on how the showrunners elevate the material with specific scenes you recall? The bonus one on one scenes certainly, which ones? The red viper is easy, as they depicted a worldly man. Also, Theon in season 2 would be obvious to me. D&D combined with the casting do a great job of capturing the majority of book character identities but not to the length where I would give them more credit than the father of the concepts for he developed the ideas after all. I would appreciate if you included Cersei.

    {M}

  265. deekan
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Thx, just trying to take the comment section in a new, less negative direction, rather than the same back and forth “she will or she won’t” or “D&D should’ve or they shouldn’t have” comments of the past twenty posts.

    And I guess we’ll have just wait and see what is to come in the next season and, indeed, the next novel. Will there be this fated confrontation? And what will come of it? Alas, a long wait is in store for us, I feel. 9 cruel months for next season. And gods know how long before GRRM gets that next book finished; hopefully before next season…nah, realistically August 2015 at the earliest.

  266. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Thank you my lord.

    I still have to ask if you can expand on how the showrunners elevate the material with specific scenes you recall? The bonus one on one scenes certainly, which ones? The red viper is easy, as they depicted a worldly man. Also, Theon in season 2 would be obvious to me. D&D combined with the casting do a great job of capturing the majority of book character identities but not to the length where I would give them more credit than the father of the concepts for he developed the ideas after all. I would appreciate if you included Cersei.

    {M}

    Sure. The characters I feel are much more 3-dimensional in the show are: Theon, Cersei, Bronn, the Hound, Oberyn, Brienne, Tywin, Tyrion (yes, despite the Tysha omission), Aemon, Ygritte, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jorah, Catelyn, Ned, Tommen. There may be a few more, but that’s already a huge list!

    As for the one on ones, there are too many to count or remember. I loved the Olenna one on ones. With Tywin, Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, etc. The Margaery/ Tommen scene was sheer brilliance. All the added Bronn/Tyrion stuff was excellent (as was the Bronn/ Jaime material). The Tyrion/ Jaime scenes in season 4 were excellent, as were the Tyrion/Oberyn scenes.

    I could go on, but I’ll be here all night! :)

  267. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Oh, I will still jibjab you on your Yara defense though. I think I got your goat on that one! :)

    Saruman lives!

    I will not kneel!

  268. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 25, 2014 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: Well, that was clever, but this is the Internet.It will take more than a polite request to deter me.

    Look, I understand your position on the matter of LOTR, and i generally agree.But please, does every thread have to come to this?Why must you take every opportunity to compare these two epic fantasy authors and then contrast their respective adaptations.The game of whose better than who gets old, rarely provides anything useful, and should be left wayyyyyy back at creative writing 101.I respect your voice, you are clearly thinking it through…. But damn.Let it go.

    Oh, and Lady Stoneheart just farted in Lady Goldberry’s general direction.

    Sorry, but I have barely discussed LOTR. Possibly 5% of my posts include the kind of comparisons you mention (and some posters are very interested in the topic, being fans of both GRRM and Tolkien). I may bring LOTR up more than most here, but certainly not in “every thread,” as you claim. And where it’s appropriate for the point I’m making, I’ll continue to do it!

    And maybe it’s just me, but I simply don’t respond well to the command “get fucked.”

    I imagine Lady Stoneheart’s farts probably smell a lot worse than elderberries. ;-)

  269. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Sure. The characters I feel are much more 3-dimensional in the show are: Theon, Cersei, Bronn, the Hound, Oberyn, Brienne, Tywin, Tyrion (yes, despite the Tysha omission), Aemon, Ygritte, Grey Worm, Missandei, Jorah, Catelyn, Ned, Tommen. There may be a few more, but that’s already a huge list!

    As for the one on ones, there are too many to count or remember. I loved the Olenna one on ones. With Tywin, Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, etc. The Margaery/ Tommen scene was sheer brilliance. All the added Bronn/Tyrion stuff was excellent (as was the Bronn/ Jaime material). The Tyrion/ Jaime scenes in season 4 were excellent, as were the Tyrion/Oberyn scenes.

    I could go on, but I’ll be here all night! :)

    Forgot to add Varys to the list of characters that are far more rounded in the show. He’s one of my favorite characters on the show, while being one of my least favorite in the books. That’s an amazing feat on D&D’s (and Conleth Hill’s) part!

  270. Vin Sidious
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    I don’t care if she’s important. I just think she’s wicked cool!

    JohnnySD: I think there is an equal number of book readers that think

    I think an equal number of book readers feel LS reveal was THE moment when ASOIAF almost jumps the shark. It is easily the worst thing in the books until he resurrects Jon and quite frankly I am tickled that she has been cut completely. Even GRRM himself has said he would not include her if he did it over, so why would anyone think her arc is important?

    I don’t care if she’s important; I just think her intro is awesome and it’s extremely cool and intriguing to have her as a piece on the board.

    JohnnySD: I think there is an equal number of book readers that think

    I think an equal number of book readers feel LS reveal was THE moment when ASOIAF almost jumps the shark. It is easily the worst thing in the books until he resurrects Jon and quite frankly I am tickled that she has been cut completely. Even GRRM himself has said he would not include her if he did it over, so why would anyone think her arc is important?

  271. davyJones
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Its puzzling that suddenly everyone here is encouraging they cut characters that dont “play a role in the end”. As if a character is only interesting if they play a part in the grand scheme of things or resides in kingslanding. With that mentality tons of characters would have been cut from previous seasons. With this thinking we wouldn’t have the GreatJon from season 1, jory, gendry etc.

    How interesting a character is doesnt depend on how many chapters they appear in.

  272. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Aaaah man, ya know… I’m sorry. I’m the asshole. I saw the (imo bad) news, read the bits of interview, scrolled to the bottom of posts and like a child wandering into a movie I caught a few posts of yours more or less saying Grrm’s writing sucks (don’t quote me, I’m not quoting you) and the LOTR/GOT comparisons were flowing again….. This is not the first time I’ve read your comments go there in a LS related discussion.
    I overreacted, and apologize for that. I have no interest in making enemy’s here, or anywhere (except HB that horse fucking fuck), so this is me suing for peace, FWIW.
    Also, though I don’t blame you for not responding well to “get fucked”, I say that to all my friends. :)

    Stonefarts, if you will, would send Goldberry AND Bombadil bounding off, without song!

  273. oblivious
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Is it possible that LSH could be portrayed by another actress? If so, that means Fairley won’t be in the show, but the character is.

  274. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    deekan,

    I also enjoyed your thoughts Deekan, particularly regarding the importnce of third parties as a fulcrom between Brienne and Jaime. I’m not sure this is how things will play out (a showdown between these two) or that somebody will necessarily die, but I do like the idea that Brienne may have to choose between two forces she has sworn to….
    One question. Are you assuming now that Brienne’s meeting with BwB would be the necessary moment for the LS reveal, if she is indeed introduced? If she does make it, I think she needs a standalone scene like the book 3 epilogue (and yes, I think the beat moment for that has been squandered. It would be really fuckin strange if Brienne/pod and Jaime did not meet up again in the Riverlands under circumstances similar to the books. FANFIC

  275. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    oblivious,

    That would suck

  276. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister:
    (except HB that horse fucking fuck)

    Hey! How do you think California Chrome got his mojo?

    There are those who call me…..Seabiscuit.

    Oh, and the Hound asked me to take care of Stranger while he is recovering. Made my day.

    Wilbur!

  277. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Right on.

    It is not a matter of distaste for the show just as it is not a matter of distaste for the books on your end. I am on the other side of the spectrum only because we spend extended time with the book characters as opposed to a significantly smaller amount of time on the show. For that reason the book characters to me are naturally more rooted but the show carries them over well. For example, to speak to the integrity of the character of Tywin: within Tywin’s small council meetings he withholds information and only gives his lord enough to make them feel important. He is vigilant and disciplined to the point where he never breaks. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them”.

    The Spider is my favorite character from the book and show. And yes the Marg/Tommen scene was one of many excellent show inceptions.

    {M}

  278. johnnytata
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    not sure how much of this is going sunce i can’t tolerate 275 comments of likely 75% complaining,

    but if people are upset about this arc being spoiled, book purists have only yourselves to blame, your overly vociferous outrage and dissapointment at the exclusion of something for which you were solely responsible for creating the hype brought too much attention to the issue and made media folk feel like they needed to cover it (which is their job by the way) .

    you have every right to voice your opinion but no right to complain about the consequences.

    if i were in charge of the show i would definitely cut it now, any gravity it would have had as an unexpected turn is utterly lost now.

  279. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Aaaah man, ya know… I’m sorry.I’m the asshole.I saw the (imo bad) news, read the bits of interview, scrolled to the bottom of posts and like a child wandering into a movie I caught a few posts of yours more or less saying Grrm’s writing sucks (don’t quote me, I’m not quoting you) and the LOTR/GOT comparisons were flowing again….. This is not the first time I’ve read your comments go there in a LS related discussion.
    I overreacted, and apologize for that.I have no interest in making enemy’s here, or anywhere (except HB that horse fucking fuck), so this is me suing for peace, FWIW.
    Also, though I don’t blame you for not responding well to “get fucked”, I say that to all my friends. :)

    Stonefarts, if you will, would send Goldberry AND Bombadil bounding off, without song!

    No harm done. I have a thick skin (the better to deflect stonefarts with). And thanks for the clarification on the use of that phrase. I’m now going to channel Eddie Murphy and say: “get fucked too!”

    But noone messes with Tom Bombadil, the original Iarwain Ben-adar. He’s master of wood, water AND hill. With a ring a ding a fuckin’ dillo, he’d sing Lady Stonheart right back into the grave.

  280. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Comparing the two bodies of work is a polarizing topic worth discussion. It doesn’t have to have any negative connotations.

    Ours is the Fury,

    What’s up playa, how we feelin this evening/ morning?

  281. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Right on.

    It is not a matter of distaste for the show just as it is not a matter of distaste for the books on your end. I am on the other side of the spectrum only because we spend extended time with the book characters as opposed to a significantly smaller amount of time on the show. For that reason the book characters to me are naturally more rooted but the show carries them over well. For example, to speak to the integrity of the character of Tywin: within Tywin’s small council meetings he withholds information and only gives his lord enough to make them feel important. He is vigilant and disciplined to the point where he never breaks. “The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them”.

    The Spider is my favorite character from the book and show. And yes the Marg/Tommen scene was one of many excellent show inceptions.

    {M}

    Exactly. We just have slightly different preferences. But as we know from history, slightly different preferences can sometimes lead to bloody warfare! I’ll try to keep a cooler head in the future – recognizing the significant respect a lot of folks have for GRRM’s written word.

  282. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    And not one mention of your beloved Broncos! Nice work! I think the wildlings may square off with your horde in the pit yet again, horselord!

    Too soon? Is it football season yet? Oh, right. It is Futbol season….

  283. johnnytata
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    my take on tolkien vs. grrm:

    both are great in their own right.

    tolkien is literature, transcendent beyond genre, and tolkien’s literary essays on the genre add a lot of insight into why his writing carries so much weight. i am certainly no english major snob type, but tolkien was really a literary genius, a true scholar who created his entire universe as an exercise in language creation.

    i love grrm’s writing, and this will sound blasphemous to some who take it as an insult, but i consider ice and fire genre heavy pulp fiction, the best of its kind, capable of crossing over to a wider audience and important in its own right but (and here is where i get killed on this site) tolkien is in a whole different stratosphere

  284. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    But wait, we were on the topic of horse fucking…. I completely dropped the ball(s).
    i bet youve been through the desert on a horse with no name… But it was no Stranger. Now THATs an accomplishment

  285. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    johnnytata:
    my take on tolkien vs. grrm:

    both are great in their own right.

    tolkien is literature, transcendent beyond genre, and tolkien’s literary essays on the genre add a lot of insight into why his writing carries so much weight.i am certainly no english major snob type, but tolkien was really a literary genius, a true scholar who created his entire universe as an exercise in language creation.

    i love grrm’s writing, and this will sound blasphemous to some who take it as an insult, but i consider ice and fire genre heavy pulp fiction, the best of its kind, capable of crossing over to a wider audience and important in its own right but (and here is where i get killed on this site) tolkien is in a whole different stratosphere

    Well, I certainly won’t kill you.

    There are some pretentious academic words to describe your comparison. In LOTR, Tolkien created a story of “high mimesis” that interacts seamlessly with “low mimesis” (mainly, the hobbit POV). GRRM’s story, on the other hand, sits firmly in the muddier realm of “low mimesis,” and often drops far lower than that even. The essay “On Faery Stories” describes perfectly why Tolkien’s writing is likely to remain timeless, while GRRM will likely be seen as just a really good fantasy author.

    In that context, I agree fully with your characterization of ASOIAF as exceptional pulp fiction. It’s very enjoyable, and sometimes very smart (there are insights in it about leadership and power that are spot on), but I personally wouldn’t call it literature.

    At the same time, most literary critics refuse to classify Tolkien’s work as literature. Fantasy balderdash, and all that…They are wrong, of course!

    Crap. I’ve just validated Sister Wrister’s accusation from earlier… :)

  286. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Comparing the two bodies of work is a polarizing topic worth discussion. It doesn’t have to have any negative connotations.

    For my role forging this negativity, I should extend my apologies to you as well. Came in a little hot with this news fresh. You’re a classy dude, and I am lowborn scum. Just ask the bastard of hodor, he’ll tell you!

    And for the record, I grew up reading Tolkien and have great respect for his achievements. He was a genius, and at a time when the entire world around him was at war. Takes spiritual balls the size of the ones the Spider has hidden away somewhere to channel all that. Reading the Hobbit, the trilogy, and scouring through the Silmarillion was the first time I really checked back out of this world, so to speak, So yeah, Tolkiens rad. Grrm’s rad. I dont care whos better, because they are different beasts altogether. It’s all good.

    GET FUCKED!

  287. deekan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I believe that IF they decide to bring LS in that it is too late for the same kind of reveal that is in the books and have the appropriate impact. They could have her in the cold open, though I doubt it, I believe that will be reserved for Cersei’s rumored dream/flashback for that would be the best place for something that weird (since the show never has flashbacks). They could also have it at the end of the first episode. But I believe that that scene was just a necessary sacrifice due to the reasons I said previously said about the characters not being ready. The closest I feel they can get to that punch is with Brienne. Not having shown LS prior to Brienne’s capture by the BwB will put the unsullied viewer really into Brienne’s boots. But the viewer will still believe that Beric is in charge and expect that they are taking her to him, and then when they see LS, that will really throw the viewer off their guard, because they thought they knew where the story was headed; that is the best place for a shock. I don’t, personally, believe we need the first scene. So, I guess to sum it up, I am of the opinion that it would, at this point, probably work better for them not to do the scene. Maybe they could also throw in some Frey’s in the background as nod or easter egg for the sullied viewers. But, in the end, who knows but D&D.

    That being said I’m not going into next season expecting LS. I do expect the BwB though. As some people have theorized here, I think a Blackfish/Beric/Thoros team-up would be pretty awesome. They need someone to be leading the group that is fueled by a need for vengeance and Blackfish probably isn’t too happy at the moment, and I would love to see Clive Russel and Richard Dormer again. Not to see them again would be a real shame.

    And yes, I agree that Brienne just having a lovely jaunt around the Vale and Riverlands getting into fights with random people or trying to BS some other random invented story arc would seem hilariously fanfictional, and probably a complete waist of her character. I don’t believe that will happen, since that would mean completely or mostly ditching her story arc up to this point. And that would terrible from a storytelling prospective, and at the end of the day you would have to ask why did they make such an unnecessary change to these character’s arcs when it is literally written write THERE. No, I believe Brienne will be forced to find and trick Jaime by somebody. Maybe she’ll try to head to the Riverlands looking for the Blackfish, since that is Sansa’s only known-to-be-living relative and come across the BwB and LS or whatever replacement they invent for her. It doesn’t have to be the BwB, but I mean that would be a pretty dumb change considering they are already in the show and underutilized.

    Jeez…there I went again; another rambling tome of a comment.

  288. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    My Lady ;),
    let me begin by saying….

    Just kidding my LORD,

    Apology not accepted. You did not play a role in forging negativity. I was suggesting a post dedicated to discussing the show vs books which would in turn would cause a war. We got a long off season and I don’t know how much WiC.net has lined up for the upcoming months besides pugs in sweaters and myrcella recasts. And I respect the passion when people get fired up, I love it!!!

    I have never read Lord of the Rings.

    Ours is the Fury,

    Me again playa,

    Got another idea. Fortune Cookies. The concept: …simply brilliant. GoT quotes. The details: low production costs, WiC.net inscribed on the the back, marketing in every chinese restaurant in America.

    What’s the catch?: none. My gift to you….free of charge.

    {M}

  289. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Hey man. The dust has settled, and I was out of line anyway.

    I’m too lazy to google the terms “low mimesis” and “high mimesis”. Can you explain?

    Tolkien is truly literature, without a doubt. And timeless indeed. And while I agree that Martin’s works with ASOIAF are a bit more low brow, only time will tell what history considers relevant. Nobody thought the low brow impressionist movement would be worth a damn. Then again, these critiques were coming from a perspective not yet far enough removed to see the broader context….. The advent of photography changed everything, including and especially so, the purpose or place for art in the world in general.
    Perhaps in the world of the next twenty or thirty years, a story about Dragons and Direwolves and the humans around them, within a world so epic and distant from our own (yet similar in somany ways) will be just what is needed. Indeed, our sensibilities have changed since Tolkien (where do hobbits come from?), but medevil fantasy is still at the core of both works. And who wants to escape into sci-fi when you’re already living it? I think Martins works will hold up, on some level, with Tolkien. And yeah, HBO is helping with that, as Zepplin did with Tolkien. (A jape?)
    I still cannot bring myself to actually compare the two. Nevertheless, I have just done what I yelled at you about. FUCK
    An amateur trap? :)

  290. Charles M
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    Why must the resurrection of Beric and BwB be about LS? Why must it serve a purpose other than unto itself? Why must every plot be about leading into something else? What is LS leading to?

  291. Grynthaline
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:35 am | Permalink

    RobbBreakWind:
    One thing D&D say is what huge fans they are of the books and how they respect the material.The also said Seasons 3 & 4 were the ones they were most looking forward to making because of the powerful source material.The strength of A Storm of Swords are the “Holy Sh**” moments that hit you early, in the middle and then the biggest one, at the end.You’ve got Red Wedding, the Death of Oberyn and then the Lady Stoneheart reveal.Those are the defining moments of not only the book, but of the series.To leave out Lady Stoneheart would be a grave disservice.

    Indeed. To leave out Stoneheart would be confirmation that the series were entrusted to the wrong people. It makes me think of how they let their own intrepretation ruin the characters, or in this case Catelyn’s (making her stories more about Robb than her, adding the stupid monologue that she wanted Jon dead, removing her politically shrewd side) and now that they’re done with butchering the characters the readers’ like, they missed out on one of the biggest WTF-moment of the series because they don’t think Lady Stoneheart is a big enough moment (because they always thought Catelyn came after Robb, for which they are so wrong).

  292. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    deekan,

    A good read, thank you. You have convinced me, THE scene would be unnecessary, and this would be the better route, given where we are. I do appreciate your take on this.
    As much as I look forward to Cersei next season- she is after all the sister in need of a wrister- I could kinda give a fuck about her prohpesies as far as the show goes. If they get into flashbacks and prohesies… There are much better options. Maybe this fits the show, and her focus next season, but I hope not. I think Bran is the clear winner when it comes to visions, and would like to see him tap in for any of these types of scenes.

    Mikken’s Mark,

    I see, my mistake. And well played with the name, but as Brienne would say…..I.am no lady. :) alas, I am no lord either! Just lowborn scum.

    Starting a war now eh? I recognize that mark, that’s Littlefingers work!

    And, good idea btw. This site could use a forum.

  293. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:48 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister: Starting a war now eh? I recognize that mark, that’s Littlefingers work!

    HAHA perfect!

  294. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Ours is the fury: “No catch you say?” almost too good to be true. why didn’t I think of that!

    Mikken: places his hands of OiTF’s shoulders and gingerly whispers in his ear, “Yes I will not catch y– I mean yes yes no catch. I have only loved one website……your sista, westeros.org” (Push)

    Just playin around don’t kick me off your website!

  295. vlad
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    Oh come one, it’s obvious, she’s completely out. I’m so mad about this, not because it is a huge change from the books for at least 3 important people, but because of Catelyn herself. She was my favorite female character, maybe not in the books, but in the show without a doubt, I loved Michelle Fairley. So, she’s probably not important in the overall picture?? What does that even mean??? Will Margaery, Yara or Brienne ride dragons and save the world??? Clearly not. I’m sure they took her out, because they felt it was a little too fantasy, if that even makes sense in a show with dragons and white walkers. But it’s simply wrong, Catelyn story arc wasn’t over, it’s a huge disrespect to one of the best actresses in the show.

  296. BombjakCross
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    heh… of COURSE LSH will be in the TV show. End of Season 4 was too soon, and served no plot purpose at this time. Be patient.. she will appear…. ;)

  297. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    vlad,

    It makes Cat’s lack of screentime in season 3 an even bigger crime.

  298. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Blackfish and Beric > Lady Stoneheart

    This

    I’m sooo glad they cut LS…what was GRRM thinking!!

  299. Jim
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Sloppy storytelling. Why even have Beric’s resurrection if it’s not LS groundwork?

  300. Uete
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:42 am | Permalink

    BombjakCross,

    YES!!! I’m convinced this is all some sort of ruse on Michelle’s part OR they hadn’t contacted her yet at the time of the interviews. Right now I’d recommend everyone to just chill and wait and see… D&D always say it: they’ll get there, one way or the other. Actually I’m now hoping they don’t portray it like in the books anymore. It’ll have the same flavour, but it’ll be rearranged to better fit their story, as they did with Boy/Ramsay in season 3.

    I think it clearly was unfit for season 4′s finale, with so many crazy things going on, but I trust they’ll find a way to add her next season. Also: I want moar Michelle Fairley, especially if they slightly change the character from the books and just present a more human Lady Stoneheart: still a shadow of her former self, with nothing left but her sorrow for all of her dead children and Ned. That’d be tragic and good TV. If they bring her back, give her something more to do other than vengeance and hanging Freys. I’d love for her to have a more elaborate conversation with someone from the BwB or with Brienne, to actually trick/convince her the only honorable thing to do at that point would be to bring Jaime to her. So… yeah, just don’t cut off her vocal chords and the character will be more appealing to everyone involved.

    For a Fifth season dark(er), and full of Fairley! (Metaphorically speaking)

  301. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    Jim,

    Why say Cat’s body was thrown in the river?

    Pau Soriano,

    I personally think this change sucks. It also implies to me that the show isn’t going to consciously pull material from the books anymore. They’ll do their own thing except for when it’s convenient to follow the books. I wouldn’t be surprised if they cut the Griffs now.

  302. johnnytata
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    i am struck by how many people are so certain they know what is crucial to a story that isn’t even complete and won’t be for a good 10-15 years compared to a production team who sat with the author for hours discussing exactly what is important and who actually know how it is all going to end.

    just mind boggling.

  303. Darquemode
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    Depending on how the endgame of the series plays out, I think Griff and company could be needed and might make the series…

    However, I think (and fear) they could cut Euron and Victarion far more easily…

    Honestly though, with probably 4 plus seasons worth of material in AFFC, ADWD and the next two (or three) books, they will need to cut a lot out to end the series in just 3 more seasons!

    Do the Riverlands arcs need to be as prominent? Will we see Griff and company… The Greyjoy uncles…. Oldtown or White Harbor? I can see ways they could be cut or trimmed back extensively, but I can see them all being included as well.
    I hope they all make the series!

  304. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    johnnytata,

    You’re talking as if they are incapable of changing things. They are clearly changing things. Stoneheart has already left her mark in the books, you can’t say she’s not important. The show will just take a different path to reach the same endgame.

  305. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Well, if they need more seasons they should take more seasons! I don’t understand why D&D are trying to fit it into 7, even HBO said that they’d prefer 8 seasons.

    The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that they know that they’re going to overtake GRRM and that they don’t want to tell his story for him (so they’re making a bunch of massive changes and cramming it into seven seasons).

    I can already see massive changes in Jamie, Brienne and Sansa’s storylines. Who’s next, I wonder? Maybe they’ll cut Manderly and fake Arya…

  306. Grey Ghost
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    Pls pls plssss don’t cut her out. After Arya’s final scene it went to black for a second or two. Myself and the other sullied in the room shifted forward slightly, anxiously expecting, hopeful yet doubtful, of a cut to a misty forest scene…

    Then the credits.

    Glances were exchanged o_o then we just slipped back into unsullied mode for those watching with us.

    Fuuuuck. I can see it in my mind, her face, the expression, and the epic amount of excitement and intrigue that would have filled the gap between now and Season 5.

    I even made a Skyrim character a few weeks ago in anticipation :( she deleted now, so I don’t spoil random visitors. Seriously I got her spot on. Both beautiful and horrific. <3

    They fucked it up man, BAD! But I've been telling myself Season 5 opener Season 5 opener oh em jeeeee.

    But now I'm really scared :( she is an extension of my favourite character. If they chop her plus Coldhands then idk wtf.

  307. Grey Ghost
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    A lot of people will have been spoiled because of this, removing any future shock factor. ALSO… I personally know 2 unsullied who’ll be catching up book wise, therefore removing another chunk of viewers they could have surprised.

    It’s stupid. I like D&D for all the awesome things they’ve done for this show, but HATE THEM, when they suggest they know better than George, and every fan of the books that is out there. It’s kinda insulting tbh.

    FUCK all the made up shit, and just tell the story pls :(

  308. Grey Ghost
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    rant rant rant

    etc…

  309. Chad Brick
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    If D&D cut both Stoneheart and Manderly’s Frey pies, not only will I riot, but I will also conclude that Bolton/Frey alliance has taken over HBO.

  310. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    Jim,

    Why say Cat’s body was thrown in the river?

    Pau Soriano,

    I personally think this change sucks. It also implies to me that the show isn’t going to consciously pull material from the books anymore. They’ll do their own thing except for when it’s convenient to follow the books. I wouldn’t be surprised if they cut the Griffs now.

    I would actually re-phrase my statement saying that while I never liked LS, I understand it can work for some people in the books. I do think that it would be a horrible choice for the show.

    About your other point, I think it’s great the show deviates from the books!! Not because the books are bad mind you, I think they are great, but because now we get 2 stories to enjoy instead of one!!!

    When the show started we all wanted to see the things we most liked in the books translated to tv, and in no minor part because we wanted our “unsullied” friends to share what us “nerds” have been enjoying for so long…

    Now there’s no need, really…the unsullied are as hooked as we are and I quite enjoy the notion of having 2 separate stories, specially taking into account that many things will have to get cut if we want a 7 season show.

    Actually, the thing I would hate most is to be spoiled of the ending by the show, so if they deviate enough to give us 2 different endings, even better

    Another thing I don’t understand is why readers get so angry when theres a deviation in the show…they already have the version of the story they like in the books!! Why get mad? Is not as if by showing a different version in the show the book one gets erased!! And if the reason is so the whole world will get to see the version you like, don’t you prefer that that version of the story is only acceesible to people that makes the effort to read the books!! I very much do so!! ;)

    Off-topic PS: World Cup games are being awesome indeed, and I can’t be happier than the spanish have been kicked out :-D
    Aat this point in time I’d like to see Germany vs Brasil and Argentina vs The Netherlands in the semifinals. I’ve always cheered for the Netherlands, but this time around I find their way to play a bit “cheap”. I much prefer GErmany or Brasil style. And really, what would be more epic than a Messi vs Neymar final??

    PS-2: Time to sign Luis Suarez, now that his biting habits habve brought his price down 15M…just imagine a forward line with Neymar, Messi and “The Chew”!!

  311. Turncloak
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Mikken’s Mark:
    Ours is the fury: “No catch you say?” almost too good to be true. why didn’t I think of that!

    Mikken: places his hands of OiTF’s shoulders and gingerly whispers in his ear, “Yes I will not catch y– I mean yes yes no catch. I have only loved one website……your sista, westeros.org” (Push)

    Just playin around don’t kick me off your website!

    OiTF is a lady not a dude…

  312. johnnytata
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    johnnytata,

    You’re talking as if they are incapable of changing things. They are clearly changing things. Stoneheart has already left her mark in the books, you can’t say she’s not important. The show will just take a different path to reach the same endgame.

    i know they are capable of changing things. i just think it’s ironic that a bunch of know-it-all web heroes think they know better than people who have actually sat down with the author and wo have his blessing.

    i actually don’t care at all if they change things as long as it majes for interesting viewing. i don’t think rigid adherence to source material is good tv storytelling nor do i think it makes any sense to have epileptic fits when thosr changes are made.

    just my opinion that i find it a bit histrionic and sanctimonious.

  313. Valaquen
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Tyrion’s “he doesn’t shit gold after all” was uttered after he had just murdered his father and Shae, and while he was ALONE. A silly line which kills suspension of disbelief.

    Just a correction, because everyone seems to think Tyrion either said or thought this line – he didn’t. It was the authorial voice, GRRM himself, not the character. I’m glad it wasn’t in the show because, as you say, it’s ultimately goofy.

    Re; Stoneheart… I think D&D were planning on using her later, when they can have the BWB cast back, etc. This isn’t a book by book adaptation, so they obviously felt under no duress to throw her in at the end of season 4. The fact that they wouldn’t even tell Alex Graves if she was in or out speaks volumes.

    Unfortunately the caterwauling from the impatient fanbase (and those ridiculous articles from EW, with pictures of Catelyn all over the place) probably spoiled the surprise for a lot of people. I mean, the first thing people did here on this very site was flood the UNSULLIED thread to complain and curse D&D.

  314. Chad Brick
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    johnnytata: Another thing I don’t understand is why readers get so angry when theres a deviation in the show…

    We don’t. We get angry when the show sucks or is inconsistent, especially when it does so because it deviated from the books. Obviously, they aren’t going to cram 9000 pages of text into 70 hours of TV, so lots will have to be cut, and a few things added in order to make those cuts coherent. It’s one thing to suck because the source kinda sucked. It’s another to suck because you ignored it. It triply sucks when you can’t figure out that a woman who is saying “No” over and over while whimpering is not someone your characters should be having sex with, unless you want to trash that character’s reputation. There is plenty to criticize in the TV series that has nothing to do with strict adherence to the novels.

  315. LordNoga1981
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    John M W,

    Because when jon snow dies at end of dance he will end up being resurrected by melisandre just like beric. See, no reason for stoneheart. If they really do only 7 seasons we will probably never see mucb more of the ironborn

  316. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Nick Larter:
    So does Michelle Fairley being told LS won’t happen, open the door for Talisa Stoneheart?

    That might be what they are doing. This would explain why they needed a scene between Catelyn and Talisa where they talk about Jon Snow. Also fits with Michele being vague about the character Lady Stoneheart, but can definitively state her character isn’t returning.

  317. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Chad Brick: We don’t. We get angry when the show sucks or is inconsistent, especially when it does so because it deviated from the books. Obviously, they aren’t going to cram 9000 pages of text into 70 hours of TV, so lots will have to be cut, and a few things added in order to make those cuts coherent. It’s one thing to suck because the source kinda sucked. It’s another to suck because you ignored it. It triply sucks when you can’t figure out that a woman who is saying “No” over and over while whimpering is not someone your characters should be having sex with, unless you want to trash that character’s reputation. There is plenty to criticize in the TV series that has nothing to do with strict adherence to the novels.

    Oki I have several answers for you, just pick up the one you like (or hate )most ;)

    1- But you do in the case of LS…you can’t say the show “sucks or is being inconsistent” by cutting her

    2- Why get angry when the show deviates from the books? They are 2 different stories!

    3- Maybe you want to show that a relationship between 2 twin brothers that are lovers is a bit more complicated than that, don’t you think? There’s plenty of women that stay with their abusive husbands and boyfriends that come back to their cheating girlfriends (and the other way around). Jamie raping Cersei doesn’t “suck” per se. It’s actually much more interesting for the complexity of the relationship. Only “sucks” if you are stubbornely comparing it to a different story, the one in the books, and to a charácter in those books.

  318. Yocy
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    I honestly believe that they just skipped the epilogue chapter. That way LS can make her grand reveal to the viewers in front of Brienne. The shock will be MUCH bigger that way mostly because LS will be psychoticly scary from the beginning. And not murder some random frey nobody has seen before while looking like a cool vengeful zombie.

  319. Phiiiiiil
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Saying Lady Stoneheart is a throwaway character is essentially saying that Catelyn Stark is a throwaway character. Whether or not she has a big “impact” on the endgame story, having Catelyn’s story end at the Red Wedding is like cutting the character arc in half. It would be like having Tyrion actually die at the Blackwater battle on the show. Clearly GRRM wrote her return as something that is essential to her overall arc and who Catelyn is as a whole. The nickname “Lady Stoneheart” is used so often that it’s easy to think of her as a different person, but remember that they are in fact literally removing CATELYN STARK from the story. Cutting LS means that Catlyn was a just a throwaway character this entire time, like Ros.

  320. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Phiiiiiil,

    Sadly, the writers have treated Catelyn as a throwaway character, so this cut doesn’t surprise me at all.

    Shame, because the actress is ridiculously good.

  321. TheAmir
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I don’t even -like- LS, but I understand that she is in the story for a reason. First, there’s no point in even bringing in the BWB unless there’s a LS. They don’t play that big a role in the books EXCEPT they are the reason LS exists. Secondly – she is huge in the Jaime/Brienne arc. Brienne’s arc is pretty much pointless without LS, unless you like reading a few hundred pages of “I’m looking for a girl of ten and three, fair to look upon”. Third, we know that something significant is going to happen between Jaime and Brienne BECAUSE of LS. We don’t even know exactly what yet, but given the fact it was THE cliffhanger of AFFC’s and one of the cliffhangers of ADWD, I’m -pretty damned sure- it’s going to be important.

    So what do the show writers do?

    Write her out? Really?

    Yeah, pretty stupid. I can see changing some minor characters, but LS wasn’t minor in the big scheme of things. Leave out Tom O’ Sevens, I get that, fine, as he can be merged with other characters, etc… but if they’re really cutting LS, that’s about as bad as how they’re handling Stannis’ story arc and leaving out Tysha. It’s stupid, plain and simple.

  322. Chad Brick
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    Pau Soriano: Oki I have several answers for you, just pick up the one you like (or hate )most ;)

    1- But you do in the case of LS…you can’t say the show “sucks or is being inconsistent” by cutting her

    2- Why get angry when the show deviates from the books? They are 2 different stories!

    3- Maybe you want to show that a relationship between 2 twin brothers that are lovers is a bit more complicated than that, don’t you think? There’s plenty of women that stay with their abusivehusbands and boyfriends that come back to their cheating girlfriends (and the other way around). Jamie raping Cersei doesn’t “suck” per se. It’s actually much more interesting for the complexity of the relationship. Only “sucks” if you are stubbornely comparing it to a different story, the one in the books, and to a charácter in those books.

    Stoneheart easily qualifies as one of my top five moments when I read the books. I am hardly alone in this. Yes, the series sucks more when this is dropped in favor of Craster’s Keep Round II, jokes about Grey Worm’s lackings, or overly long musings on beetles. I am not opposed to all changes – Ayra/Tywin was great! – and there are plenty of things that obviously need to be sacrificed. Coldhands, for example, is kind of cool but didn’t add much story-wise and would have been difficult to execute technically. But why would you cut one of the coolest scenes in the books, and without which one character arc is left permanently incomplete (Catelyn) and two more completely derailed from the books (Brienne/Jaime). Unless LSH is brought in next season (probably by skipping the first Frey-hanging scene and going directly to her capture of Brienne and Pod), the stories of Brienne and Jaime on TV are going to have to be mostly fan-fiction from here on out. Perhaps D&D can pull this off without a lot of suck, but I doubt it.

    I would argue that the rape WAS inconsistent. I can’t count the number of unsullied that are now way off-base about the Cersei/Jaime relationship. I’ve heard a number claim that the last scene between them was not love, but Cersei directly manipulating Jaime. None of this is consistent with what D&D intended, with the books, or what TV-Cersei and TV-Jaime will likely be doing going forward. All that because Graves screwed up ten seconds of editing…grrrr.

    I worry as that the TV series derails ever further from the book plot, that it will start sucking…yet be just true enough to spoil the biggest plot points.

  323. Troublesome Birdsong
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    Darquemode,

    Well, if they need more seasons they should take more seasons! I don’t understand why D&D are trying to fit it into 7, even HBO said that they’d prefer 8 seasons.

    The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that they know that they’re going to overtake GRRM and that they don’t want to tell his story for him (so they’re making a bunch of massive changes and cramming it into seven seasons).

    I imagine it’s because they don’t want to spend more than ten years of their lives just on one project, and neither would most actors. As much as they may love the story, everyone gets sick of working on these things when it takes up a huge chunk of their life (I daresay the same has happened to GRRM). It already feels like they’re beginning to tire of it, not to mention they’re already planning the screenplay they want to write next after it’s finished, which is never a promising sign. If it were up to me, I’d probably say they need to be open to the idea of handing the reins over to someone else, so that the show doesn’t suffer from their understandable fatigue, but they won’t. They’re more likely to push on and cut the storyline to ribbons so they can conclude it as quickly as possible.

  324. Troublesome Birdsong
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    Chad Brick: Unless LSH is brought in next season (probably by skipping the first Frey-hanging scene and going directly to her capture of Brienne and Pod), the stories of Brienne and Jaime on TV are going to have to be mostly fan-fiction from here on out. Perhaps D&D can pull this off without a lot of suck, but I doubt it.

    The problem with skipping straight to Brienne is that her scene and the Frey scene are two very different moments and both are necessary for understanding what the character has become.
    When Stoneheart is revealed hanging Freys, that is a moment of unexpected justice; evidence of the Starks fighting back for a change; and a suggestion that all may not be lost (mixed in with the surprise of her being alive again). We’re reintroduced to her as a bad-ass avenger taking out the trash, so we think, ‘Awesome, another good guy to support, however mangled she may be’.
    Then later when she almost hangs Brienne and refuses to even contemplate that Brienne hasn’t betrayed her, it’s a completely different tone, and we suddenly realise this consuming vengeance has turned sour and that we might have accidentally been supporting a ‘bad guy’.
    If the show jumped straight to the Brienne scene, then that jeopardizes the reintroduction entirely and people will just hate her, because Catelyn Stark is suddenly randomly back as an undead villain. There’s no character depth or lesson to be learned without the first scene to balance it out.
    In short, in order for us to appreciate the fact that she is back, we need to see Stoneheart kill some people we don’t like and whom we feel deserve it, before she kills people who don’t deserve it.

  325. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Chad Brick:
    Pau Soriano,

    Stoneheart easily qualifies as one of my top five moments when I read the books. I am hardly alone in this. Yes, the series sucks more when this is dropped in favor of Craster’s Keep Round II, jokes about Grey Worm’s lackings, or overly long musings on beetles. I am not opposed to all changes – Ayra/Tywin was great! – and there are plenty of things that obviously need to be sacrificed. Coldhands, for example, is kind of cool but didn’t add much story-wise and would have been difficult to execute technically. But why would you cut one of the coolest scenes in the books, and without which one character arc is left permanently incomplete (Catelyn) and two more completely derailed from the books (Brienne/Jaime). Unless LSH is brought in next season (probably by skipping the first Frey-hanging scene and going directly to her capture of Brienne and Pod), the stories of Brienne and Jaime on TV are going to have to be mostly fan-fiction from here on out. Perhaps D&D can pull this off without a lot of suck, but I doubt it.

    I would argue that the rape WAS inconsistent. I can’t count the number of unsullied that are now way off-base about the Cersei/Jaime relationship. I’ve heard a number claim that the last scene between them was not love, but Cersei directly manipulating Jaime. None of this is consistent with what D&D intended, with the books, or what TV-Cersei and TV-Jaime will likely be doing going forward. All that because Graves screwed up ten seconds of editing…grrrr.

    I worry as that the TV series derails ever further from the book plot, that it will start sucking…yet be just true enough to spoil the biggest plot points.

    I think you need to realize they are 2 different stories.

    LS was great for you in the books? Great! Hers story is in the books, why get uspset if her stpry is not in the show? You already read her story and will continue doing so there…

    And again you say “Jaime and Cersei actions are inconsistent with the books”…so? This are not the books! They are 2 different stories!!

    The sooner you realice this the happier you will be and then we can enter the next point ijn the discussion: “Is it good or bad that theye are 2 different stories?”

    I’ll debate for the “good” side ;)

  326. Chad Brick
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    My point is that if they leave out LSH (one of the best parts of the books), they can replace it with

    1: Something inferior from the books or
    2: Something they make up, which is likely to be even worse

    Note that this doesn’t just apply to LSH, but also Jaime and Brienne. While D&D have had a few hits in their fan-fiction, they’ve had a number of whiffs and drags as well. GRRM is much more consistent high quality.

  327. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:
    Off-topic PS: World Cup games are being awesome indeed, and I can’t be happier than the spanish have been kicked out :-D
    Aat this point in time I’d like to seeGermany vs Brasil and Argentina vs The Netherlands in the semifinals. I’ve always cheered for the Netherlands, but this time around I find their way to play a bit “cheap”. I much prefer GErmany or Brasil style. And really, what would be more epic than a Messi vs Neymar final??

    PS-2: Time to sign Luis Suarez, now that his biting habits habve brought his price down 15M…just imagine a forward line with Neymar, Messi and “The Chew”!!

    The WC is truly the best way to avoid the sudden dearth of GoT and ASoI&F. Great timing! Except for the Italian & Spanish collapses, this has been spectacular. Don’t discount Columbia either. They are clicking well.

    I didn’t realize Suarez was from Skaagos. Maybe he has some info on Rickon?

    LS, CH, Belwas, Val and Penny forever! Screw the naysayers!

  328. smitzzz
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Nick Larter,

    Lol no. More likely we will get Lord Beric still leading the Brotherhood or possibly even have the Blackfish involved.

    Actually that is a really good point , Blackfish with the BwB hanging Freys and taking over the roll of Stoneheart ,just not dead/rezzed

  329. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    I want the show to tell the book’s story (roughly) since I fear we might never see GRRM finish ASOIAF. The show going in it’s own path means we might never see the intended ending, which is a real shame. Also, while I don’t mind most changes (cutting Stoneheart is the first change I can say I hate), I just don’t understand them sometimes. Why cut something that is good in the books? Obviously, this is based on my opinion, but threads like this prove that most people like Stoneheart. Cutting her means cutting Jamie’s arc in the Riverlands (which was also great) and a heap of character development for Brienne. It’s like cutting Jamie getting captured by the Starks- I mean, he ends up at King’s Landing anyway so why does he need to get captured? Same logic. And their track record so far with made up arcs isn’t great in my opinion (certainly not as good as what is in the books).

    And even if D&D hate the idea of Stoneheart, I still think they should follow through with it. It’s a major element in the books and if they would concentrate its impact into season 5, it wouldn’t have been just killing Freys. It would have been Brienne caught by Stoneheart and sent to bring Jamie, and then it would have been the JamieXBrienneXStoneheart confrontation. If it ends up being a closed circle in the books they could fit it all into season 5 and be done with it.

    It’s not that I hate the show now or that I’ll stop watching it, but it’s definitely disappointing. They’re great showrunners (just the fact that they managed to get this beast to our TVs and do it so faithfully in the past 4 seasons is a testament to that) but I think that here they’re making a mistake.

    PS- if you think this means the show won’t be spoiling the books and the endgame you are wrong. D&D have said that they are building up to the same ending

  330. 3waywithCercei
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Linda,

    I think it’s unfair to say that GRRM doesn’t care at all about how much the show deviates from the books. Also the fact is that he signed the rights for a TV adaptation to HBO so he really can’t do anything about the changes.

  331. Insurrbution
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Who’s to say she won’t appear in the first episode next year? Could make for a great ending scene.

    The show is the show and the books are the books – I like them both equally but prefer reading to watching ;)

    Oh, and I miss the days that only fantasy readers knew about Martin….

  332. Grey Ghost
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Chad Brick,

    “Coldhands, for example, is kind of cool but didn’t add much story-wise”

    I have to disagree. He’s the only character out there who has not succumb to the inherent evil associated with being a Westerosi undead. Imo that’s pretty fucking huge. I hope that angle factors in later and D&D look stoopid for chickening out on a bunch of (perfectly doable) effects.

  333. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Valaquen:
    Re; Stoneheart… I think D&D were planning on using her later, when they can have the BWB cast back, etc. This isn’t a book by book adaptation, so they obviously felt under no duress to throw her in at the end of season 4. The fact that they wouldn’t even tell Alex Graves if she was in or out speaks volumes.

    Ridiculous fanbase or not, given the amount of related subtext the showrunners offered throughout the past few seasons (as debated in posts above), the key indicator for a dismissal of LS, imho, is that the showrunners chose not to pursue any hints or allegations of increased BwB activity and wolf attacks throughout the riverlands. Not a word in the small council about it, and no informal discussion between any characters about it either. I was craving just a sentence, here and there. But absolutely no buildup…like the whole “winter is coming” motif, there is minimal relevance in the show…thus far.

    Perhaps, as you state, they could mix it up a bit, but it is not like the BwB have been dormant since mid-S3, is it? Something has to give.

  334. Turncloak
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    The Jaime/Cersei sept scene was was actually terrible in the show as well. Alan Sepinwall(an Unsullied viewer) criticized the scene heavily in his episode 10 podcast as we see that Cersei has chosen Jaime in the end. He harped on how the only people who saw that sept scene as consensual were D&D while the viewing audience saw it as rape

  335. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I think the actors have contracts, and D&D need to justify their salaries and meet certain specifications in their contracts, hence why there are some seemingly pointless new scenes created for the show (Craster’s, Missandei and Greyworm stupid love affair etc). Missandei is a main cast member next year… okay so now we need to create more scenes for her. Yes sorry Coldhands, or Lady Stoneheart, that means you HAVE TO GO. Because there is only SO much time and we are obligated to spend it on the actors who we pay a fuck-ton of money to. Etc etc.

    Same with Craster’s. Oh hell, we’ve paid Kit Harrington SO MUCH FUCKING MONEY, we CANT have him just sit on the back-burner while we wait for Mance’s army, and focus on some of the more less-developed characters WHO ARE ALMOST AS IMPORTANT LATER ON *COUGH COUGH STANNIS/KEVAN LANNISTER* lets fucking create a whole 3-episode long arc complete with senseless rape, which deviates completely from the books, and we can also use this opportunity to get rid of Locke so we can afford to pay for more scenes of Dany and her dragons.

    The books will NEVER be adapted how we want. NEVER. When money, and contracts and obligations of actors etc are in play, adherence to great story-telling BE DAMNED. Oh we have this great idea for this scene… OH WAIT NO WE NEED THAT TIME FOR A GENERIC DANY SCENE because the viewers 95% who have never read the books dont know or care who Jon’s real mother is. FUCK i hate this industry so much.

  336. fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    I’m beginning to think the idea of Talisa as Lady Stoneheart should seriously be considered a possibility as well as cutting the character altogether.

    Since Talisa is from Volantis, as LS she will have no allegiance other than the Starks and taking out the Frey’s and Lannister’s for their actions.

    Talisa was a healer and didn’t care what side an injured person was on during the battle. Several examples of her nature against killing and war were presented during the second and third season. The dramatic swing from sweet and caring to cold revenge killer will set up worry about resurrecting Jon Snow and what he will end up like. It’s an even bigger swing than Catelyn’s character.

    When Catelyn tells Talisa, “You’re afraid of her and she knows it” as Talisa dismounts the horse. This may foreshadow the position Lady Stoneheart will be in when passing judgement against the Frey’s.

    Having Talisa pregnant makes her hunger for revenge for the death of her child as well as her husband. Giving purpose for her being pregnant other than simply increasing the shock factor.

    In this context, the changes to the Jeyne Westerling character had a purpose.

    LS may still be cut, but we should also prepare for this option as well.

  337. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    GRRM: “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”
    D&D: ****** *****
    GRRM: “WOW! Okay you guys are real fans, I trust you completely to accurately adapt my massive series for television!”

    *5 years later*

    GRRM: “Hey D&D are you even gonna bring up Jon Snow’s mother again? It’s kind of important…”
    D&D: “Sorry GRRM, we allocated that time to Lena Heady getting drunk as Cersei again because seriously we pay her so much fucking money we have to justify her paycheck to HBO. SORRY!”

  338. Solar
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    JTargs,

    Dude they a added Missandi/Greyworm love story. Heck, half this season was filler. We have no idea what kind of filler they’ll add later one since they’re replacing it with what actually happens in the books.

  339. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    Pau Soriano,

    I want the show to tell the book’s story (roughly) since I fear we might never see GRRM finish ASOIAF. The show going in it’s own path means we might never see the intended ending, which is a real shame. Also, while I don’t mind most changes (cutting Stoneheart is the first change I can say I hate), I just don’t understand them sometimes. Why cut something that is good in the books? Obviously, this is based on my opinion, but threads like this prove that most people like Stoneheart. Cutting her means cutting Jamie’s arc in the Riverlands (which was also great) and a heap of character development for Brienne. It’s like cutting Jamie getting captured by the Starks- I mean, he ends up at King’s Landing anyway so why does he need to get captured? Same logic. And their track record so far with made up arcs isn’t great in my opinion (certainly not as good as what is in the books).

    And even if D&D hate the idea of Stoneheart, I still think they should follow through with it. It’s a major element in the books and if they would concentrate its impact into season 5, it wouldn’t have been just killing Freys. It would have been Brienne caught by Stoneheart and sent to bring Jamie, and then it would have been the JamieXBrienneXStoneheart confrontation. If it ends up being a closed circle in the books they could fit it all into season 5 and be done with it.

    It’s not that I hate the show now or that I’ll stop watching it, but it’s definitely disappointing. They’re great showrunners (just the fact that they managed to get this beast to our TVs and do it so faithfully in the past 4 seasons is a testament to that) but I think that here they’re making a mistake.

    PS- if you think this means the show won’t be spoiling the books and the endgame you are wrong. D&D have said that they are building up to the same ending

    I don’t think so, I just hope so. How? Well I think GRRM is more Littlefinguer than Tyrion so maybe he told D&D a different ending or maybe he will change the ending. If I was him I would not let someone else tell the ending of my life work…we’ll see!

    Regarding your fears, it may be posssible he dies before ending the books but Ty and Daniel Abraham would finish it then, so we will have an ending for sure.

    Regarding Jamie’s and Brienne’s arc, let’s see what the show has for us before complaining, no? And why you worry about those arcs precisily, if those stories are already told in the books? I understand you worrying about what may differ at the end, but not about a story you already have.

    Chad Brick:
    Pau Soriano,

    My point is that if they leave out LSH (one of the best parts of the books), they can replace it with

    1: Something inferior from the books or
    2: Something they make up, which is likely to be even worse

    Note that this doesn’t just apply to LSH, but also Jaime and Brienne. While D&D have had a few hits in their fan-fiction, they’ve had a number of whiffs and drags as well. GRRM is much more consistent high quality.

    Yes but what would you rather have, 2 times the SAME story, or the story from GRRM, wich you already like, and a DIFFERENT story, with some better parts, and some worst parts.

    I’ve already read Martin story, I rather have a different one, with different choices, some of wich I also enjoy, and some of wich I don’t, but it’s ok because I already read the original…

    Just stop comparing and enjoy the ride! ;)

  340. MUGger
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Nick Larter,

    All that set up with Thoros and Beric has to count for something – although the real tragedy with LS is that she forgets all except for revenge, including her original orders to Brienne to bring back her daughters. Talisa has no such connection with Brienne – they were never shown interacting in the show. I chose to believe that LS will make an appearance – everyone is just being vague on general principle.

  341. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    I am also baffled by this insistence to keep the show down to seven seasons- the material is there, why not use it? Most television productions would love to have the fanbase, executive support, and budget to go a decade- especially ones with such a family atmosphere on set.
    Yes, cuts have to be made… But why include so much non canon material (some of which I really enjoy) in lieu of a very defining moment like LS?

    Mikken’s Mark,

    Not sure I can make sense of all these whispers of yours, but I believe you should be whispering in “her ear” as Fury is a woman. A lady. That is all, M’lord.

    {low born scum}

  342. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Chad Brick,

    I’ve heard a number claim that the last scene between them was not love, but Cersei directly manipulating Jaime.

    I’m sullied and I thought it was abundantly clear that Cersei was manipulating Jaime in that last scene. In fact, Cersei’s “love” is based on her need for Jaime’s protection and her desire to actually be Jaime….It’s not real or healthy love at all and she has been manipulating him for many years. Was it also an expression of her dysfunctional love…probably. But in the end what matters is the manipulative aspect of it.

  343. jentario
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano,

    I know the story will always exist in the books for me to enjoy, and we’ll probably see the end of it in TWOW (it’s ADOS that I’m skeptical of), but as I said… I didn’t like Craster’s Keep, and obviously the Yara thing was poorly executed. The problem with D&D’s changes is that they are both trying to change things and keep the story on the same track as the books- so they make changes that end up seeming pointless and having little effect on the story. What I’m afraid if here is that they’ll do it again. The worst possible thing IMO would be to try and make Berric replace Stoneheart. But yeah, on that front I’ll wait and see. Jamie going to Dorne could be interesting (or terrible).

    On the topic of GRRM lying to D&D about the ending, I don’t think he would do that (especially since he- until a couple of months ago, at least) actually believed that they will make three seasons out of AFFC and ADWD (which would have given him enough time to finish). He wouldn’t lead them on with fake storylines since they need to know what happens in order to set it up appropriately and know what is cuttable and what isn’t. The prospect of GRRM changing the ending is terrible. This guy puts so much work into Foreshadowing and set up, I doubt he’ll just throw it all away because the show beat him. GRRM knows that in the long run the quality of his books could keep the brand alive for a long, long time (kind of like LOTR) and he has said so in interviews.

  344. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    MUGger,

    Talisman doesn’t need a connection with Brienne to know what Catelyn’s orders were. The switch from anti-war healer to cold hearted revenge killer would be dramatic.

  345. Mercha
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Joel,
    Don’t talk about “cutting the filler” when they add 4 minutes scene of Tyrion&Jaime discussing a simpleton smashing beetles, and 2 scenes to show a romance developing between Missandei and an eunuch…

    These arguments ( cutting the filler, no airtime, only 10 hours a season, etc.. ) are invalid by the monstrous quantity of pointless scenes they added to the show. The beetles, Greyworm/Missandei, Pod having an enormous manhood…

    You can’t tell me that any of those scenes are more “usefull” than a murderous zombie.

    At least the zombie was a big “oh s***” moment and would get people to talk about the show.
    I guess the beetle scene got people to talk about too… Everyone said it was an idiotic and pointless scene.

  346. Darquemode
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Completely agree about them targeting 7 seasons…
    Never made sense to me. Even with pairing down AFFC/ ADWD to a season or season and a half there is going to be a ton of material in the last two books. Eight seasons always felt like a better number to me considering the last two books could be massive!

  347. dragonreborn
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    but she is possibly a zombie

  348. 2awesome4apossum
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan:
    I’m beginning to think the idea of Talisa as Lady Stoneheart should seriously be considered a possibility as well as cutting the character altogether.

    Since Talisa is from Volantis, as LS she will have no allegiance other than the Starks and taking out the Frey’s and Lannister’s for their actions.

    Talisa was a healer and didn’t care what side an injured person was on during the battle. Several examples of her nature against killing and war were presented during the second and third season. The dramatic swing from sweet and caring to cold revenge killer will set up worry about resurrecting Jon Snow and what he will end up like. It’s an even bigger swing than Catelyn’s character.

    When Catelyn tells Talisa, “You’re afraid of her and she knows it” as Talisa dismounts the horse. This may foreshadow the position Lady Stoneheart will be in when passing judgement against the Frey’s.

    Having Talisa pregnant makes her hunger for revenge for the death of her child as well as her husband. Giving purpose for her being pregnant other than simply increasing the shock factor.

    In this context, the changes to the Jeyne Westerling character had a purpose.

    LS may still be cut, but we should also prepare for this option as well.

    1) I love this, but

    2) I don’t think it’s going to happen, because while she would work as a character, she also has less connections to other on-screen characters. Her appearance would likely be less cathartic, because we know a LOT less about her.

    3) With previous changes (like cutting Coldhands), it was to make room for bringing our favorite characters closer together (like John at Craster’s keep being within seeing distance of Bran), and I think to have a character that we don’t really understand, and didn’t have screentime with much of anyone except for Robb, wouldn’t fit their needs.

    4) That said, I wholeheartedly agree that giving the pregnancy aspect some meaning would be fantastic, instead of just making it a horror moment that was supposed to make us all feel sick inside, while ruining the tragedy that happened in the books of betrayal and real understandable mistakes. (Not so much the Little Mermaid problem of, “But mommy, I *love* her!”)

    [EDIT] 5) There’s also the issue that LOTS of people have talked about Catelyn’s death, but we’ve pretty much all forgotten about Talissa.

  349. Alex
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    I really can’t believe it.

    So many of you are bewailing the absence of a mute zombie.

    In a show that has become globally popular, largely for its delicious intrigues and political conspiracies (the TV show is called Game of THRONES), laced with brilliantly witty and devilish dialogue (Littlefinger, Tyrion, Varys, Tywin being champions in this regard)…

    you are moaning about the absence of a zombie that doesn’t say a word.

    In a show that the former Prime Minister of Australia has described as a wonderful portrayal of political machinations, you are getting terribly upset that a character who has been magically raised from the dead won’t be wasting screen time by just standing there and staring at people. And perhaps releasing bizarre gurgling sounds.

    It was an extremely stupid thing already in the books. I remember reading A Storm of Swords, loving it, and then suddenly… a zombie appears. That was the moment the books jumped the shark for me. Long before Feast and Dance, I fell out of love with ASOIAF – precisely when this totally unnecessary, totally uninteresting zombified version of a dead character who had served its purpose appeared for no reason and no benefit to the overall storyline.

    Yes, I’m sure the die-hard book fans, who would probably worship Martin as a god even if he turned all the characters into Muppets and transfer the story to Turkmenistan in the 1950s, totally loved the conversion of a dead and spent character into a zombie who says nothing and just stares into Freys as they die. But what would be the reaction of the remaining 90% of Game of Thrones the TV show’s viewers?

    You know, the people responsible for the show becoming something more than just a cult interest, the people because of whose viewing HBO keeps financing the show’s existence? I suspect those people, who primarily watch the show for its intricate story arcs and excellent dialogue, would DIE LAUGHING if they saw a first-rate actress playing a zombie, who also wastes screen time by SAYING NOTHING. The show would become the laughing stock of the world and perhaps lose a substantial part of its audience. It wouldn’t survive on viewership figures of only die-hard nerds and geeks.

    So, no, I guess we’ll just have to accept the sad, cruel fate, and settle for the thing that was one of the most vital ingredients of turning GoT into one of the most popular TV shows ever and the highest rated HBO show of all time – intricate political conspiracies and first-rate screenwriting – and will just have to live without a ridiculous zombie who doesn’t say a word! Dreadful, I know!

  350. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Stupid autocorrect.

  351. Mikken's Mark
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I have to say you do not give yourself enough credit. In my line of work I have yet to meet to meet a low born-commoner who knew how to read. But you would have to have read this to make sense of it:

    Mikken’s Mark: Ours is the Fury,
    Me again playa,
    Got another idea. Fortune Cookies. The concept: …simply brilliant. GoT quotes. The details: low production costs, WiC.net inscribed on the the back, marketing in every chinese restaurant in America.
    What’s the catch?: none. My gift to you….free of charge.
    {M}

    Idea /undercover scheme #1 was the forum. Also the Turncloak informed me that I had made this mistake. I have made this error easily half a dozen times before. However I did not believe him (or possibly her?) because I do not trust him nor his nature.

    {M}{M}{M}{M}
    ~The Forge~

  352. Eman
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    It is ironic that a writer who says “I want the reader to know that when a character is in peril they are really in peril” then goes and ressurects a character from the dead you have to wonder at his motivations. One of the greatest strengths of Martin’s narrative is the fact that he will kill anyone off and while at times I have struggled with who he killed it did make the books more powerful and meaningful. Ressurecting any character is a cop out and if D&D cut it out completely I am all for it. Besides the fact that LS shows up only twice in two books or over 2000 pages of text.

    I do not see this as a significant cut especially considering D&D know they are going to have to go into mostly uncharted territory by season 7 and even possibly season 6. I find it hardly credible for any poster to come on these boards and say they are not going to watch the show because a character who barely even appears in the books is cut if so that is absolutely ridiculous. So what they are saying is LS is their favorite character, lol, pretty silly.

  353. irhde
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    So with the possibility of abandoning the Lady Stoneheart arc, do you think we will still see the Brotherhood without Banners again in the future?

  354. Eric
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Hmm, interesting. To me, if LS is cut, all that confirms is that she doesn’t play a terribly major role in the books. Doesn’t really bother me either way, I have no special connection to LS as a character and always preferred Catelyn to just go ahead and stay dead. Really lessened the impact of the Red Wedding to me, for George to turn around and bring her back to life at the end of the book.

  355. Galen Firestone
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Okay, I may be rehashing older comments, since I chose not to read most of them, but I want to at least state what I’m feeling.

    First, Michelle Fairley comes across as kind of glib during the interview. I read a portion of it on TVGuide.com, and she made a rather poor joke about zombie makeup. From her statements, she doesn’t seem like the world’s most discrete person, so it’s entirely possible at the time she was interviewed, she just didn’t know any better. OR, she did know better, and she was just trolling. Because it’s not like people are capable of lying or anything.

    Stoneheart is an important character in Brienne and Pod’s story, cutting her would send the storyline mildly berserk. And we don’t know where that character is going to go in later books. We just don’t. This one definitely falls under “anything can happen.” I think it would be a mistake to cut the character, and while they’ve added and subtracted from points in the story, they’ve hit every MAJOR point, and removing the book 4 cliffhanger or Brienne’s brief book 5 appearance doesn’t seem like something D&D would do.

    Now I did read one comment a bit above mine griping about the idea that Stoneheart was a mute zombie. THAT’S probably something they would change. The creators don’t seem averse to changing some vocal qualities of characters, like Roose Bolton not whispering every word, or Locke (Vargo Hoat) no longer having that thtupid lithp. Or even Ghost making some noise from time to time. These are acceptable changes in the TV medium.

  356. Alex
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    or Locke (Vargo Hoat) no longer having that thtupid lithp

    Perhaps because Locke is not Vargo Hoat, he is Locke.

    And yes, they do change things. They changed Stoneheart so much that she doesn’t exist! Thank the seven gods and seven goats for that!

  357. Alex
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    And pray tell, what would a zombified Catelyn Stark have to say? “Oh, I have been wronged, everyone I love has been butchered, woe is me, I shall have my revenge, revenge, revenge!”

    It would be the height of silliness. Every single person I know watches GoT for the conspiracies and dialogue, and they’re all annoyed and bored by supernatural elements. They appreciate it as the first serious and adult piece of really popular mainstream fantasy. That’s your 90% of the total viewership – the non-book readers part. With a genuine non-White Walker zombie the show would have been laughed out of town. Twitter would implode with snark, the memes produced would reach a trillion.

  358. Cinegeek
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    If they cut LS, Wyman Manderly is going to have to eat a LOT of pie…..

  359. fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    2awesome4apossum: 2) I don’t think it’s going to happen, because while she would work as a character, she also has less connections to other on-screen characters. Her appearance would likely be less cathartic, because we know a LOT less about her.

    That would depend on how much those connections to other characters are really important for LS to have. In the books it appears LS has abandoned those connections and is just hellbent on killing Frey’s. If you just consider the show, we actually spent quite a bit of time with Talissa in season 3. I remember people complaining how little screen time Catelyn was getting. If we go back a re-watch Talissa’s scenes, there is probably more there than we expect. We thought we knew her fate and weren’t paying as close attention to her.

    2awesome4apossum: 3) With previous changes (like cutting Coldhands), it was to make room for bringing our favorite characters closer together (like John at Craster’s keep being within seeing distance of Bran), and I think to have a character that we don’t really understand, and didn’t have screentime with much of anyone except for Robb, wouldn’t fit their needs.

    I see LS as the curse against the Frey’s for violating guest rights. Talissa was the Queen in the North. She lost both her husband and child at a wedding. Now she exists as LS to wipe out the Frey’s. Seems to fit their needs perfectly. Her lack of connection to other characters might be an asset. Say a situation arose where Lady Stoneheart could kill a dozen Frey’s or save Lord Edmure. Book readers know UnCat would go after the Frey’s, but I’m not sure that would translate well for the show. UnTalissa going after the Frey’s avoids that relationship complication.

    This is pure speculation and dependent on the true motivation of LS. But it could solve a problem GRRM is having with UnCat.

    2awesome4apossum: 5) There’s also the issue that LOTS of people have talked about Catelyn’s death, but we’ve pretty much all forgotten about Talissa.

    Part of this could be misdirection since the sullied are expecting UnCat. Upon seeing Oona’s face, I doubt viewers will be wondering who that was. Besides, if you want to shock the fans, you want them to forget about Talissa.

    I’m not advocating for this to happen, just saying we better be open to the possibility in cause it does happen.

  360. fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Eman: Ressurecting any character is a cop out and if D&D cut it out completely I am all for it.

    But they didn’t cut it out completely. Remember Beric Dondarrion? It’s already a part of Show Cannon.

  361. luciana
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Hard to believe D & D aren’t excited about getting LS in the show. She is such an awesome character!! How come?? It’s beyond belief that they are passing LS.

  362. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Eman,

    Also, this resurrection, in particular… Results in an entirely new character. I don’t see it as a cop out, or a devaluation of death. I am particularly interested to see how this “new” character fits into the storylines of others major characters, since that has clearly been setup( also the reason I don’t think her role will be entirely meaningless, and why she should be included)

    Mikken’s Mark,

    Haha, fair enough m’lord. But do not mistake the meekness in my speech to any lack of power. It is not unheard of for even an armorer from fleabottom to posses kings blood, and fortunately in today’s world even low born scum such as myself can obtain an education. Plus, my mother taught me to speak proper….. Properly.

    And yet, I do not forget where I came from. Lowborn scum for life…. Up next- Belgium!

    I did not see the Turncloaks post until after I replied. I understand your hesitation, but the Turncloak will not lead you astray. To be certain, he can be trusted on this matter.

  363. Darquemode
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Despite undead R’hllor wights(insert your favorite term) being canon and both characters being resurrected the same way I personally see them in totally different ways.

    Beric was not much more than a faceless name until we meet the BWOB. We basically got to know him already in his undead state. However, we were introduced to Catelyn, experienced her life struggles, and her death was impactful. Bringing her back felt like a cop out to me, and is one of my least favorite moments in the series so far.

    Even if I don’t find Stoneheart’s role very important from her two short scenes in the books I have hopes LS pays off in the next books. Otherwise I can see why D&D seem to have cut her since there is little point to her in the overall narrative so far IMO.

  364. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    The 7 seasons thinguie is probably an impossition of HBO so they don’t have to re-negotiate the contracts of the actors. D&D talked about 8 seasosn during the first years, and then they change to “probably 7, maybe 8″

    PS: There’s many things I don’t like either, and overall I think Martin’s is the better story, but I’m glad D&D make changes so I can emjoy 2 different takes of the tale. For me it would be very boring to watch/read the exact same thing twice. Also, Martin has had 20y to work on the books,all the time he’s needed, and this guys have a HUGE task to do each year…I’m sure if they had twice the time and twice the budget, the show would be even better.

    PPS: Having said that, we don’t even know were is the LS arc going in the books or what D&D have in store for us the next seasons, so people going nuts over this need to calm down, relax and grow up ;)

  365. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Alex:
    And pray tell, what would a zombified Catelyn Stark have to say? “Oh, I have been wronged, everyone I love has been butchered, woe is me, I shall have my revenge, revenge, revenge!”

    It would be the height of silliness. Every single person I know watches GoT for the conspiracies and dialogue, and they’re all annoyed and bored by supernatural elements. They appreciate it as the first serious and adult piece of really popular mainstream fantasy. That’s your 90% of the total viewership – the non-book readers part. With a genuine non-White Walker zombie the show would have been laughed out of town. Twitter would implode with snark, the memes produced would reach a trillion.

    Interesting set of comments…and maybe the viewers would react according to your assumptions if given the chance to view an onscreen LS. However I must continually remind folks that the ASoI&F books and GoT show literally started with a zombification/resurrection with macabre consequences. We (like the Night’s Watch) must accept that “zombies/undead” are wholeheartedly part of the ASoI&F and GoT experience. We have thousands of wights, Beric, CH, LS, Robert Strong, possibly Mel, soon to be Jon, undead prophecies, undead visions, faceless men assuming faces/bodies of the dead, debatable non-PoV deaths, etc.…they are all players in this amazing tale. The LS role does indeed bring a new level of darkness and revenge to the established BwB agenda and plotline and does not reduce the impact of any of the disturbing events (Red Wedding, etc) that preceded it.

  366. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Hear, hear!

    But wait, Mel?

  367. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Alex:
    And pray tell, what would a zombified Catelyn Stark have to say? “Oh, I have been wronged, everyone I love has been butchered, woe is me, I shall have my revenge, revenge, revenge!”

    It would be the height of silliness. Every single person I know watches GoT for the conspiracies and dialogue, and they’re all annoyed and bored by supernatural elements. They appreciate it as the first serious and adult piece of really popular mainstream fantasy. That’s your 90% of the total viewership – the non-book readers part. With a genuine non-White Walker zombie the show would have been laughed out of town. Twitter would implode with snark, the memes produced would reach a trillion.

    Every single unsullied person I know loves the mythical and supernatural elements of the story, including Bran’s (and these are highly educated and literate people). These story elements, if integrated well, can elevate the intelligence, depth and cultural value of the show, rather than diminish it. So I don’t think this kind of anecdote from “most people you know” should determine how the show treats the LS situation (even though I am not a huge fan of hers).

    As for “conspiracies,” anyone who believes that a show is smarter or more adult because of “conspiracies” is not a very smart person. There’s nothing particularly smart about trying to detect conspiracies. In fact, most conspiracy theorists are morons.

    IMO, it take a lot more grey matter to process the abstract symbols of myth and legend, than to figure out a whodunnit.

    Not to mention that I have little respect for people who use the word “adult” to describe a piece of art, unless it’s pornography. I often find that such people are B-level thinkers. Insecure about their own intelligence, and desperate to place themselves above perceived “dumb” entertainment, such as fantasy and science fiction.

    These are probably the same kind of people who think Tolkien is juvenile trash, while the latest piece of short fiction from some hipster in Brooklyn is the apex of human civilization’s output.

    And if Franz Kafka’s characters turn into bugs, why can’t GRRM’s turn into zombies? And if Fritz Lang can populate all of his films with mutes, why can’t D&D have one?

    The answer? Faux-intellectualism (which is boring AND stupid).

    I don’t even like the concept of Lady Stoneheart, but not for the awful reasons you’ve given.

  368. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Beep! Beep! Beep! That’s the sound of the US Soccer Team bus backing into the Round of 16! It wasn’t pretty but not bad for the Group of Death!

    :)

  369. Brodor
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree with you on basically every point you’ve made. I also think Tolkien is better than Martin; however, I actually enjoyed the LOTR movies. This show is an amazing adaptation and I enjoy it more than the books as well. I have to admit though, I did watch the first season before picking up the books. So it is possible I have a bias. I’m curious, what is your opinion on JK Rowling?

  370. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Mercha:
    Joel,
    Don’t talk about “cutting the filler” when they add 4 minutes scene of Tyrion&Jaime discussing a simpleton smashing beetles, and 2 scenes to show a romance developing between Missandei and an eunuch…

    These arguments ( cutting the filler, no airtime, only 10 hours a season, etc.. ) are invalid by the monstrous quantity of pointless scenes they added to the show. The beetles, Greyworm/Missandei, Pod having an enormous manhood…

    You can’t tell me that any of those scenes are more “usefull” than a murderous zombie.

    At least the zombie was a big “oh s***” moment and would get people to talk about the show.
    I guess the beetle scene got people to talk about too… Everyone said it was an idiotic and pointless scene.

    Speak for yourself. The Tyrion-Jaime beetle scene was, for me, one of the best pieces of dialogue and characterization across all four seasons.

  371. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Brodor:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree with you on basically every point you’ve made. I also think Tolkien is better than Martin; however, I actually enjoyed the LOTR movies. This show is an amazing adaptation and I enjoy it more than the books as well. I have to admit though, I did watch the first season before picking up the books. So it is possible I have a bias. I’m curious, what is your opinion on JK Rowling?

    I’ve actually never read any of the Potter books, so I am unqualified to have an opinion! In general, I prefer actual myth and legend (and history) to fantasy, so I don’t read much fantasy beyond Tolkien (who was deeply grounded in the dark spaces of Anglo-Saxon myth). I might pick up a Potter book someday, but I’m not in a hurry.

  372. 2awesome4apossum
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Fantastic replies to my criticisms. I still maintain it’s unlikely, but that would be *quite* interesting to see unfold.

  373. hearmeroar
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Oh gods. If Alex was the source (and Fairley relied on his statement) then I’d take the statement with a grain of salt. He knows nothing. He gave wrong answers regarding the controversial jaime cersei scene in 4×03, called jaime a psycopath and he called brienne a lesbian. If Graves says SH will not be on the show do not believe it.

  374. hearmeroar
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    And lets admit it the show viwiers perceive the Starks arr protagonists of the show. What would be more thrilling for the viewers than to see their favorite Stark mama exacting her revenge on her enemies. If GoT could not afford Fairley anymore its no problem. Stoneheart is a zombie and cannot talk they could use a body double and let her croak.

  375. Brodor
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Nice. Love history as well; I majored in it. I think you should check out those books sometime. Just don’t watch the movies lol. Anyone see the GRRM tease on TWOW yet?

    http://shelf-life.ew.com/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

  376. R'hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Can someone clarify something for me? It’s been a looong time since i’ve read the books. Do all the gods look down on the violation of guest rights? I know the Seven do and apparently R’hllor, but I can’t remember if that is actually stated outright.And do which ones except a trial by combat? Another question I have is why does Jaquen kill for the R’hllor if he worships the MFG?

  377. Jim
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:
    Another thing I don’t understand is why readers get so angry when theres a deviation in the show…they already have the version of the story they like in the books!! Why get mad? Is not as if by showing a different version in the show the book one gets erased!! And if the reason is so the whole world will get to see the version you like, don’t you prefer that that version of the story is only acceesible to people that makes the effort to read the books!! I very much do so!! ;)

    It’s not deviations, the Hounds story REALLY deviated from the books and no one really minded. Strong Belwas? It’s that the LS is a pretty big one. She only shows up a few times, but intersects with Breanne’s story in a big way and it looks like Jamie’s story is next. Plus the sudden vanishing of frey after frey would have an impact. AND it validates Thoros’ resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, if they were going to drop LS they should have dropped that as well. Why even have it if it’s a one off that never happens again (I won’t even get into the Jon Snow business, since i don’t think he’s dead to begin with. Big GIANT right there, remember?). It’s just sloppy writing if she’s cut. Coldhands is a bummer, but i have a hard time seeing the point of him in the books much less the series.

  378. Jim
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand:
    Another question I have is why does Jaquen kill for the R’hllor if he worships the MFG?

    They cut out the MFG on the show. Too many religions, i guess.

  379. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Thank you, Portugal. But was is this business about resurrected Mel?

  380. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I was hoping you would question that. It is one of those goofy Westeros theories (that I enjoy) that, given Mel’s thoughts from her ADwD PoV chapter, Mel might be using a glamour on herself to either keep herself alive or keep her identity secret. But it is a stretch.

    We’ve discussed it here before as well, a few months back.

  381. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand:
    Can someone clarify something for me? It’s been a looong time since i’ve read the books. Do all the gods look down on the violation of guest rights? I know the Seven do and apparently R’hllor, but I can’t remember if that is actually stated outright.And do which ones except a trial by combat?Another question I have is why does Jaquen kill for the R’hllor if he worships the MFG?

    IIRC it mentions Gods, implying all the gods look down on guest rights violations. Same goes for kinslayer curses. Jaqen kills for R’hllor because Arya saves them from fire. Had she saved the three from drowning, he would repay the drowned god. For trial by combat I guess it would depend on which ones are called to bare witness. Since Pycell didn’t finish his prayer to call the seven, it would imply the mountain vs viper battle had no gods witnessing.

  382. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand,

    I think the Great Other might heartily approve of guest right violations.

  383. R'hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Thanks. Do you guys think the any of the gods are real or is it just magic we see sometimes and not their powers?

  384. Jim
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand:
    Thanks. Do you guys think the any of the gods are real or is it just magic we see sometimes and not their powers?

    I doubt that will ever be made clear.

  385. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Aaaah yes, the glamour…. My head started spinning looking for recollections of actual resurrection, but yeah, I suppose this is very much along the sameish lines. Cool .

  386. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 26, 2014 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Poor Stannis. Hey Mel, Johnny bench called

  387. loco73
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Holly shit! Are we still blabbering on about this?! Whatever will be will be, just let it be and move the fuck on!

    I for one am looking to next season, casting news, filming locations and schedules…first on set images etc.

    I love the books and the show, but I won’t obsess over one detail, even one such as this, and somehow sour my enjoyment of the show or novels!!!!

  388. Sandor Claws
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Jim: I doubt that will ever be made clear.

    George answers that question in this interview:
    http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/11/08/3887040.htm

    When asked, How real are the gods in the world of Westeros?

    George gives the best answer ever. He replies,

    How real are the gods in our world?

  389. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Darquemode:
    fuelpagan,

    Despite undead R’hllor wights(insert your favorite term) being canon and both characters being resurrected the same way I personally see them in totally different ways.

    Beric was not much more than a faceless name until we meet the BWOB. We basically got to know him already in his undead state. However, we were introduced to Catelyn, experienced her life struggles, and her death was impactful. Bringing her back felt like a cop out to me, and is one of my least favorite moments in the series so far.

    Even if I don’t find Stoneheart’s role very important from her two short scenes in the books I have hopes LS pays off in the next books. Otherwise I can see why D&D seem to have cut her since there is little point to her in the overall narrative so far IMO.

    Getting to know Beric in his undead state is irrelevant. We had no idea he was in an undead state when the Hound killed him and Thoros brought him back.

    I would agree that resurrection could be a cop out if it was easy to do and always worked, but GRRM set up very specific conditions in order for it to occur. R’hllor is the one who brings the person back. The fact Beric had to forfeit his life for Lady Stoneheart, suggests R’hllor kept bringing Beric back from the dead for that moment and then had no more use for him.

    Just because you didn’t like UnCat doesn’t make it cheap or shitty storytelling, just something you didn’t like. For me, Lady Stoneheart was the SYMBOL that the Frey’s were cursed for violating guest rights. D&D set up the idea of the curse, they need to follow through with something.

  390. eric
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    You are missing the point of showing Beric resurection because you read the book. If you never read first, the resurrections are critical to demonstrate the power of the lord of light. Remember, this is a fantasy story. Many of the folks watching the show have not read the books, and most probably dont read any fantasy. So for a casual fan, the establishment that this lord of light is not just another of the seven who are prayed too, but worthless apparently is critical.

    I personally started reading the books because of the show after season 2. Like you, some of the changes have annoyed. I am much more annoyed by the rape scene from episode 4.3 than a potential omission of LS. I was sort of briefly excited when I read that epilogue. But I was also spent … all those deaths to major characters were just epic. Then we get the reveal, but really, so what? The people she kills are meaningless characters. The scene would take 5 minutes or more of screen time, and do nothing for anyone who hasn’t read the book.

    As for the Brienne story line, it should be pretty apparent they intend to give her more to do. I wouldnt be surprised if she ends up killing Frey’s to avenge the Starks.

    John M W,

  391. Jeff
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    Personally I thought Stoneheart was an unnecessary addition in the books. One great thing about Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones is that main characters die – and stay dead. If they come back to life than the shock you feel when they die isn’t there – and this shock is responsible for some of the finest moments in both the books and the TV show.

    Keep her dead unless she is absolutely necessary for whatever comes in Book 6 and 7.

  392. dave
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    i still think its possible, i mean they very vague about it… and the makers and the actress will not say of course! Brienne and Pod walking into Stone Heart is pretty cool. I can see it in the season 5 finale

  393. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 5:21 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    Sister Wrister,

    Beep! Beep! Beep! That’s the sound of the US Soccer Team bus backing into the Round of 16! It wasn’t pretty but not bad for the Group of Death!

    :)

    Congrats!! I was cheering for you guys

  394. Jssc Stnhrt
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    I just found this by a tumblr-user and I sign it 100%.

    Just leaving this here in case B&W might come across it or Wic could forward it to them.


    OKAY SHOW FANS

    I think that since it’s been confirmed that she will not be in the show, please allow me to explain to you why your book fan friends have been FREAKING THE FUCK OUT over Lady Stoneheart.

    Do you guys remember how blown away you were when Ned died? Do you remember the Red Wedding? Do you remember how angry you were? Remember the vengeance you wanted? The pissed off feeling that you’re so tired of the good guys losing and the bad guys not being punished?

    Okay I’m going to need you to remember that anger.

    Also, remember these guys:

    Th[ere]’s Thoros of Myr, the Red Priest, and Lord Beric Dondarrion, the re-animated corpse. Basically, Thoros went to administer a ceremonial funeral rite of the Red God R’hllor called The Kiss of Life, and, well, it worked. That dead fucker jumped up and continued to Robin Hood the Westerosi countryside with his Brotherhood without Banners. It’s a pretty cool storyline, but ultimately it only exists as a jump off for Lady Stoneheart, the real shit.

    One night, after the Red Wedding, Arya is having a wolf dream with Nymeria much like the ones Bran has with Summer. In it, Nymeria pulls a dead body from the Trident, one that has obviously been there for days. She hears men coming, and her pack runs off.

    That’s when Lord Beric administers the Kiss of Life to Catelyn Stark, giving his life for hers, and Lady Stoneheart is born.

    And let me tell you, Lady Stoneheart is just as fucking ruthless as the most blood thirsty Northern fans could hope for.

    Basically, she takes over the BwB and hunts down every mother fucking Frey and Lannister she can, hanging every single solitary one of those mother fuckers. She remembers, and she is not fucking happy.

    And she is terrifying. Imagine Catelyn Stark, in the water for days, decaying, her face a bloody ruin where she tried to claw out her own eyes in grief, her neck cut from ear to ear. She can’t even talk in much more than a rasp, and even then, she has to hold her fucking throat to manage that much.

    And the men she captures are fucking horrified because they know they fucked up, and she is this terrifying walking corpse that is out for their blood. And she fucking kills all of them. The weak Catelyn that the show creators dreamed up that is nothing like the Catelyn from the books? Yeah, she is long gone. What you have is pure malice and vengeance.

    In Merrett Frey’s own words before she kills his ass:

    Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother’s blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone’s. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated.
    Thoros describing her resurrection:

    The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so LordBeric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And… she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose
    And finally, because everyone knows the North remembers, I am going to leave you with this chilling quote, because Catelyn Stark is the one that offers up the vengeance so many fans cry for, because the showrunners couldn’t even give her that after destroying her character so badly, because jfc how the hell could anyone axe one of the most chilling characters in the entire series, one of the most interesting fucking storyline because somehow a woman getting vengeance for her family is unfathomable when there’s other (male) re-animated corpses walking around, because it’s said just before killing a Frey… and because I love this line at the end of the epilogue for ASOS:

    She don’t speak. You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers”

  395. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand,
    Sandor Claws,
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Do you guys think the any of the gods are real or is it just magic we see sometimes and not their powers?

    In regards to whether they are real or not and GRRM’s statement, D&D weighed in on this point as well with the Beetle monologue (that so many people disliked). I happened to love it and spent a good bit of time going over it’s many layers of meaning in my video recap/review, not least of which was the “gods” aspect of it. People are like Tyrion (both in Westeros and here)…we see things happen, often bad things, and we think there has to be a force behind it, like their cousin, except we ascribe it to the gods. And we desperately want to believe that there are reasons for the gods going “kunk, kunk, kunk” on us but we’ll never really know. And in the end, it doesn’t matter. Just like the story didn’t matter with Tyrion. Knowing wouldn’t have changed his circumstances, just how he felt about his circumstances. Neither does knowing the motivations of the gods nor knowing whether they’re real or not.

    One of the major themes in GRRM’s books is Power and Agency and you can’t address power inequalities without addressing those things that manipulate humans. We manipulate ourselves because we want to know “why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people” (i.e., why life is unfair and chaotic). Others manipulate us on behalf of their gods (Melisandre, the Faceless Men, the Sorcerers, etc). Still others manipulate for their own benefit (LF, the Boltons)….etc, etc, etc. I think D&D understand this. Their viewpoint regarding misfortune and whether the gods are real or not accurately reflects GRRM’s and the Beetle monologue is the perfect example of that.

  396. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    I said it in an earlier article, and I’ll say it again….frankly, I’m not surprised they won’t include her.

    I am grateful for an adaptation, but honestly, Game of Thrones is run a little like Game of Bros.

    We get Samwell’s first kiss, Podrick’s manhood, Missendei and Grey Worm’s lack of a worm, Carice strutting about naked for half her screentime. Sansa flirt/winking at a much older man (a relationship not yet seen in the books). Burping Whores!

    There’s nothing wrong per se, but how many of the female characters (except when it comes to nudity) get additional complexity? Lady Stoneheart is a mother re-born, avenging her children. I wouldn’t call GRRM a feminist, but he does create a strong woman in Catelyn and the potential for a vicious kick-ass villain and leader in Stoneheart–and I just don’t think D&D have it in them to keep this in their version. The character of Catelyn Stark has been watered down to that of Mother as an appendage (that Ms. Fairley has less screentime than her two seasons-ago dead husband is telling).

    Other than Lady Olena (who’s there to be a Maggie Smith of Westeros), there’s been no real interest in inhabiting the psyche of an older woman. A reborn, angry, mother in her late 40s hungry for vengeance–a woman wracked with demons—I don’t see it happening.

    Their version is Game of Bros, after all.

  397. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stoneheart,

    But what about Cersei, Margery, Brienne and Arya? How are they not strong, complex characters?

  398. Mister Stonheart
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Margaery is not strong. Cersei is very feminine, but they have done the best with her characterization. My favorite invented scene being the one with her and Robert, reminiscing about their failed marriage. Very well done.

    Arya (as written) is just always strong.

    Brienne is strong but there is no subtlety. In the books, she has sexual feelings, especially toward Renly and later to Jaime. Show Brienne is a bit one dimensional. A bit super hero. Sure, she is tough, but she is UBER TOUGH. She lusted after Renly. They don’t show her too much as a sexual being. In a way, D&D fail to show her feminine sexual side. Ironic, but again as I’m arguing, they aren’t good at showing any feminine side. She is basically a Dude. A Bro. (Game of Bros).

    Catelyn is older. Older than any of the 4 you mentioned, and I feel they just excised her as irrelevant. A bit of their dear old mum. And Catelyn is anything but an old Mum.

    D&D don’t have the balls to fully commit to a woman who isn’t naked, a girl, a naked girl, or a cartoon hero. And that’s a shame.

  399. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stonheart:
    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Margaery is not strong.Cersei is very feminine, but they have done the best with her characterization.My favorite invented scene being the one with her and Robert, reminiscing about their failed marriage.Very well done.

    Arya (as written) is just always strong.

    Brienne is strong but there is no subtlety.In the books, she has sexual feelings, especially toward Renly and later to Jaime.Show Brienne is a bit one dimensional.A bit super hero.Sure, she is tough, but she is UBER TOUGH.She lusted after Renly.They don’t show her too much as a sexual being.In a way, D&D fail to show her feminine sexual side.Ironic, but again as I’m arguing, they aren’t good at showing any feminine side.She is basically a Dude.A Bro.(Game of Bros).

    Catelyn is older.Older than any of the 4 you mentioned, and I feel they just excised her as irrelevant.A bit of their dear old mum.And Catelyn is anything but an old Mum.

    D&D don’t have the balls to fully commit to a woman who isn’t naked, a girl, a naked girl, or a cartoon hero.And that’s a shame.

    Thank God D&D don’t dwell more on the sexual side of characters. There’s enough boring sexposition as it is. Injecting sexualized characterizations into the story would be over the top, in that context. Plus, IMO, it’s boring. Yeah people are sometimes sexually attracted to other people. Big deal – no need to dwell on it. Plus, who says show Brienne is not sexually attracted to Jaime? Did we need to have a scene of her trying to hop in his bed to prove it? IMO, I’m glad D&D have enough wisdom to jettison GRRM’s soft porn tendencies. I wish they would axe that sort of thing more often. It’s only interesting when it directly impacts the story – Jaime-Cersei, or Oberyn, where his bi-sexual proclivities serve to heighten the contrast between him and the Lannisters, and unsettle the Lannister nest (viper in the nest, so to speak).

  400. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stoneheart:
    I said it in an earlier article, and I’ll say it again….frankly, I’m not surprised they won’t include her.

    I am grateful for an adaptation, but honestly, Game of Thrones is run a little like Game of Bros.

    We get Samwell’s first kiss, Podrick’s manhood, Missendei and Grey Worm’s lack of a worm, Carice strutting about naked for half her screentime.Sansa flirt/winking at a much older man (a relationship not yet seen in the books).Burping Whores!

    There’s nothing wrong per se, but how many of the female characters (except when it comes to nudity) get additional complexity?Lady Stoneheart is a mother re-born, avenging her children.I wouldn’t call GRRM a feminist, but he does create a strong woman in Catelyn and the potential for a vicious kick-ass villain and leader in Stoneheart–and I just don’t think D&D have it in them to keep this in their version.The character of Catelyn Stark has been watered down to that of Mother as an appendage (that Ms. Fairley has less screentime than her two seasons-ago dead husband is telling).

    Other than Lady Olena (who’s there to be a Maggie Smith of Westeros), there’s been no real interest in inhabiting the psyche of an older woman.A reborn, angry, mother in her late 40s hungry for vengeance–a woman wracked with demons—I don’t see it happening.

    Their version is Game of Bros, after all.

    But you ignore the most prominent and impactful woman in the series, Daenerys Targaryen, who up to this point is both the most influential AND ethical leader in Martin’s world – one of the few leaders that has been able to effectively combine honor with effectiveness (unlike Ned Stark, for example, who had honor but was ineffective). Why does it matter that she’s not older? Sorry, but the existence and prominence of Daenerys, a favorite character for many unsullied (and sullied) throws a wrench in your “Game of Bros” critique.

  401. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 27, 2014 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    R’hllorShouldResurrectJamiesHand,
    Sandor Claws,
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    In regards to whether they are real or not and GRRM’s statement, D&D weighed in on this point as well with the Beetle monologue (that so many people disliked).I happened to love it and spent a good bit of time going over it’s many layers of meaning in my video recap/review, not least of which was the “gods” aspect of it.People are like Tyrion (both in Westeros and here)…we see things happen, often bad things, and we think there has to be a force behind it, like their cousin, except we ascribe it to the gods.And we desperately want to believe that there are reasons for the gods going “kunk, kunk, kunk” on us but we’ll never really know.And in the end, it doesn’t matter.Just like the story didn’t matter with Tyrion.Knowing wouldn’t have changed his circumstances, just how he felt about his circumstances.Neither does knowing the motivations of the gods nor knowing whether they’re real or not.

    One of the major themes in GRRM’s books is Power and Agency and you can’t address power inequalities without addressing those things that manipulate humans.We manipulate ourselves because we want to know “why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people” (i.e., why life is unfair and chaotic).Others manipulate us on behalf of their gods (Melisandre, the Faceless Men, the Sorcerers, etc).Still others manipulate for their own benefit (LF, the Boltons)….etc, etc, etc.I think D&D understand this. Their viewpoint regarding misfortune and whether the gods are real or not accurately reflects GRRM’s and the Beetle monologue is the perfect example of that.

    Is there really a lot of evidence that “so many people” disliked the beetle monologue? I feel like it was primarily book readers who were checking their clocks, worried that the Red Viper-Mountain fight wasn’t going to get enough screentime.

    Personally, I think it may have been one of the show’s finest moments. A perfect picture of brotherhood, and the confounding nature of death.

  402. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    She’s strong, but they do give her nude scenes. Hence, excellent screen time and way developed character. Game of Bros!

  403. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Damn I like how you describe the beetle monologue! I agree with you and ArgonathofBraavos regarding your enthusiasm and insight into that unique scene. In fact, the ideas behind the beetle monologue (insignificance, predestination, etc) serves as key foreshadowing into the mindset of Tyrion throughout ADwD/S5 as he wanders toward Dany and destiny.

    Screw the haters of entomological metaphors! :)

  404. Joe Frost
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Mister Stoneheart,

    I’m a bit confused at what you’re trying to argue here. As in one sentence you’re bemoaning characters having a lack of sexuality and the next criticising those that do.
    I tend to find talking about gender of characters as being pretty self-defeatiing. Just talk about tehm as actualy characters and only reference their gender when it’s used as a story-telling device.
    GRRM writes incredibly complex female characters and for the most part D&D have done a good job of adapting them. Do they sometimes get naked? Yes. Do they sometimes have sex? Yes. Do they sometimes fall foul of someone in a more powerful position than they are. Yes. But all of this can be said of the male characters too. The ladies in GoT all play the game in their own way some through manipulation and using their feminine wiles (Cersei, Olenna, Margery, Melisandre), some through playing the game in the male style ( Brienne, Yara, Meera, Arya) and then there’s Dany who kind of combines the two. There’s some anoying depictions in the show. For example I don’t mind the liberal use of nudity because it sets the scene and tone for the world it’s trying to portray. I think the aging up of Missandei so she can get her (admittedly very nice) body out and have some weird/pointless romance storyline with Greyworm was daft. Book Missandei was much more interesting as it was strange to have such a little girl be so clever and mature yet emotionless. I can see how Ros was used as a plot device but she had much too much screen time for my liking. If D&D really wanted to sexy things up then they’d include other scenes like Irri (I think it was) “taking care of” Dany one night where she had the urge and Cersei, taking Tanya Merryweather (I think it was?) as her bed warmer. In the books these were scenes that I thought showed how the powerful women had the same leaning as powerful men in fulfilling their sexual desires through underlings/servants/whores. Not sure if it was needed in the show so not fussed it got left out.
    Anyone who complains about the depiction of females in this show needs to look again. They have some of the most complex and interesting female roles there has ever been on TV. They’re not perfect but that’s the point. Perfection is boring.

  405. militant marker
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    andre,

    Lucky for the tv show that the overwhelming majority of the viewers aren’t book readers.

  406. militant marker
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    “The lucky part is that George works with us and he’s a producer on the show,” Benioff says. “Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with him and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be. If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.”
    http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/04/game-of-thrones-season-4

    They know how all the character arcs end and how the series ends, so any notion they’re leaving something out thats “major” down the stretch is ridiculous. They know and we don’t and her omission is more than telling. Also this notion that MF is using some type of trickeration is funny too. She already knows the questions they’re going to ask so if LS was some big secret for the future that she would be contractually obligated to she or her PR team would have simply asked that those questions be omitted all together. Keep ignoring all the evidence that LS has most likely been cut from the show and any epic disappointment will be your own doing. As far as what to do with Brienne, I’m sure her meandering storyline from AFFC forward is something I’m sure the writers can do something entertaining with. Trust me, less heartburn will ensue if you treat the books as the books and the show as the show. At this point if some book readers can’t come to grips that reading something expansive then going to a format thats more restrictive isn’t going to have some content casualties, that’s on them.

  407. Joe Frost
    Posted June 28, 2014 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    militant marker,

    I do worry that the show mays spoil the books a little though. One of the great things about the books and show is the twist. If LS is no longer an issue then I don’t need to worry about anything happening to Jaime of Brienne from her and the storyline loses that edge that makes it exciting.
    I’m trying my best to keep the faith as the show hasn’t cut anyone vitally important yet but if folks like LS, Victarion, Euron, Arianne and Young Griff start going missing I’m going to start to lose interest. IF you’ve got such great source material and adapting it relatively faithfully so far has been successful then don’t mess it up by taking too many liberties with the IP.

  408. Udi
    Posted June 29, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    If you like House Stark motto ‘WINTER IS COMING’ or other quotes or mottoes from ‘Game of Thrones’ get it in a handmade speech bubble to hang on your wall

    https://www.etsy.com/il-en/shop/MsgBbl?ref=hdrshopmenu

    http://www.pinterest.com/MsginaBbl/message-in-a-bubble/

  409. DocWimsey
    Posted June 29, 2014 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    militant marker,

    The other key issue is that you cannot end a season with a big “cliffhanger” and then not make that a key issue right away in the next season. That would require major revision of the plot that wouldn’t serve the story.

    If LS is going to be important, then it won’t be until the 6th book: which probably won’t be until season 7. They can do a big reveal in 2 years.

  410. Ronin
    Posted June 30, 2014 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    I have a bad feeling about Season 5. I’m afraid HBO will totally butcher “A Feast for Crows” storyline.

  411. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 30, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Is there really a lot of evidence that “so many people” disliked the beetle monologue?

    My perception of the dislike is skewed because I almost exclusively read “book reader” sites and comments. So it’s a good point. But my argument is actually for book readers, trying to make the juxtaposition plain and show how important that theme is in the books. The use of the beetle is immaterial so long as they did reflect GRRM’s take on things and they accomplished that. I don’t understand why book readers don’t like that kind of thing–time for the combat notwithstanding. And I agree with you…I think it’s one of their best moments.

    ArgonathofBraavos,
    Mister Stonheart,

    Brienne is strong but there is no subtlety. In the books, she has sexual feelings, especially toward Renly and later to Jaime. Show Brienne is a bit one dimensional. A bit super hero. Sure, she is tough, but she is UBER TOUGH. She lusted after Renly. They don’t show her too much as a sexual being. In a way, D&D fail to show her feminine sexual side. Ironic, but again as I’m arguing, they aren’t good at showing any feminine side. She is basically a Dude. A Bro. (Game of Bros).

    Argano is right, you’re ignoring a lot of subtlety and aspects of several women on the show. Brienne’s love of Jaime is pretty clear on the show…the lustful was hinted at in the bath scene (if she was all bro, she would not have given a crap if he got in the same bath with her, believe me, I know some seriously “bro” women and they don’t give a flying f*ck what guys think about their body) and when Cersei accused her of loving Jaime at the wedding–so there’s two quick pieces of evidence. Brienne’s romantic love for Jaime and her realization in that moment that it was so is a big part of why she was so embarrassed. If it was pure, platonic love she’d not have felt a smidgen of guilt or fear at being exposed and would not have blanched and run away from Cersei.

    And lust is much easier to describe in a book that uses POV than it is on screen….How much display of lust from Brienne is enough then? Would a glance or two at him be sufficient? Because that’s all book or show Brienne is capable of. She was near tears when parted with Jaime this season in Oathkeeper. Can you tell when someone is lusting after you in real life by a glance? I bet there are tons of signs we miss but boy if we could listen to their inner monologue….On the screen we look for overt actions because that’s all we have but in her case overt actions are simply not acceptable. For instance in the Jaime/Brienne bath scene in the book, he reacted sexually to seeing her naked and it was made very clear from his POV. On the show it was much less so. He seemed more embarrassed of seeing her and of being cruel to her. Averting his eyes seemed like a sign of respect but in the book, he was all arrogance and sex in his head. She was very uncomfortable being naked in the same room much less naked in the same bathtub (pool, whatever). But we don’t know what was going on in her POV there, do we? It’s just not that easy to communicate sexuality, which mostly occurs in the brain, on screen.

    As for your statement that Brienne is a Bro, so what if she is (although as I just explained she really isn’t)? Probably none of the show’s characters are exactly as they were in the books…again that’d be impossible. The only thing that matters is if the story gets told correctly so that their personalities allow them to hit the major plot points. If you truly want to see the full spectrum of 3-D complex, female characters then including someone who takes on mostly masculine characteristics is perfectly natural. Your wanting to see her behave in a more “feminine” fashion belies your original statements. Do you want her to get all googly eyed when Jaime comes around? You aren’t accepting the fact that many women are like that and that they, just like men, can show love and even lust in different ways than our society tells us we can and should. I think the books are pretty clear that most of Brienne’s lust is buried under her devotion to behaving in a knightly fashion. Really it’s the only safe way for her to express her sexuality, to camouflage it in honor and platonic devotion. Show Brienne is no different in that regard.

    As for Margery, why is she weak? Because she’s not physically dominating people? When she uses her sexuality to manipulate people, isn’t she in a way physically dominating them? You don’t think that’s a strength? You don’t think that’s acceptable? Now you’re playing into stereotypes and swallowing wholesale what society says about how women are allowed to express power. I think she kicks a$$, just on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, using her feminine wiles and her wits. See, no matter what women do, we get criticized. We’re either slutty manipulative hos (aka Margery, perceived as being too weak) or frigid and too androgynous (aka Brienne, perceived as being too strong, “bro” for your tastes). Not allowed to beat people up and not allowed to manipulate them….pray tell how are women supposed to behave? In truth, women run the gamut and the women on the show do too. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there…certainly hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of other people see the subtlety.

    Hodor’s Bastard,
    Thank you! /curtsy I think we should spawn a new term…whenever D&D get all ontological in an ep what should be call it? Meta Beetle? :)

  412. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted July 1, 2014 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Nice response. I enjoyed the points you made.

    I think, perhaps, my logic failed my words. Margery is strong when you put it like that, I think it’s just fairly typical to see a younger beautiful woman use her strength in that way.

    And Brienne has had moments of Jaime-attraction, too. You’re right. But I also think the writers often go for the lowest common denominator. Margery is pretty. Sexy time! Brienne strong! Bite man ear off!

    Catelyn was the one chance to explore a female character written with many facets…and a startling reversal in character after her resurrection. But the writers seemed to distill her into Dear Mum. With 10 lines per season.

    I think what I’m saying is, there are some flashes of power in the characterizations, but for the most part the females are being heavily distilled in the HBO series.

  413. Winterfell_Is_Home
    Posted July 2, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    My primary objection to the omission of Lady Stoneheart is the fact she is the literal embodiment of one of George RR Martin’s major themes of the series: Revenge destroys people and turns them into monsters. I also am intrigued by the theory that somehow LS gives her life to resurrect Jon Snow, just as Beric gave his life to resurrect her. Surely, that’s more emotionally satisfying than a simple resurrection by Melissandre. It has a lovely literary symmetry after the way Catelyn could not love Jon while she was alive. And I’m baffled by people who refer to Lady Stoneheart as a “minor character.” You do realize that’s a nickname for Cat, who is a pretty major character, right? :)


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