New set photos from Klis and Dubrovnik
By Ours is the Fury on in Filming.

Klis set

As filming winds down in Dubrovnik, sets in the Split region of Croatia are taking shape around the medieval Klis Fortress. Thanks to Split.com, we’ve got a close look at the new location in progress. It is believed that the locations in this area will primarily be used for Daenerys’s storyline, as production will not be returning to Morocco this year. In addition to the Klis Fortress, Game of Thrones will be filming in Diocletian’s Palace and a quarry near Žrnovnica, as well as locations further to the south such as Baska Voda, as previously reported.


Here’s a selection of the images from Split.com’s gallery:

got_klis_7

got_klis_8

got_klis_10

got_klis_13

got_klis_16

got_klis_18

And lastly, a fan snapped this pic of Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark) and Tony Way (Dontos Hollard) on their way to filming in Dubrovnik:

SansaDontosOurs is the Fury: I’m guessing we’ll get sightings of Emilia Clarke and the Essos gang in Croatia fairly soon.


221 Comments

  1. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    HODOR.

  2. Viky
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Daenerys

  3. Loki
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    thats two sansas

  4. Ronald
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    When I see those pictures, I totally think of Juliet. Why did she leave me? She was my everything. It would make sense to have it this season, because remember her beautiful strawberry blonde hair in the wind. Juliet. Please come back. Should be a good season!

  5. GeekFurious
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Sansa.

  6. Jentario
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    Ronald,

    I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I consider myself an insightful book reader.

  7. Abyss
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    The Split.com link seems to be broken. My guess is that “Greška 404″ means “Error 404″. ;-)

  8. Abyss
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    fixed now.

  9. Bethany
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Jentario,

    I think someone was just having fun with spoiler tags.

  10. Bethany
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    It looks like we’re going to get kids nailed up pointing the way to Meereen for sure. Erg.

  11. ebevan91
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Sophie Turner is pretty tall lol

  12. caoimay
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    sansa is getting catelyn sleeves more and more now

  13. oierem
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Won’t it be a bit jarring the contrast between Astapor/Yunkai in Morocco and Meereen in Croatia? It seems quite different from the other desertic cities

  14. Siobhan
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Sansa’s purple dress is gorgeous. I think it really needs some purple accessories to set it off, though. Maybe a jewelled hairnet? :)

  15. Luka Nieto
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    oierem,

    I Imagine much of the background will be CGI in the shots that need it, as it was oftentimes in Season 1, especially during the end, when they were entering the desert. It was filmed in Malta, this in Croatia. They certainly don’t look the same, but they are pretty similar if we compare them both to Morocco.

    Or, you know, they will probably could do a subtle visual change from desert to *some* vegetation on the way to Meereen, thus making TV-Meereen less desertic than Book-Meereen and the other cities in both versions.

    In other words, there are workarounds for the location change. Although I admit I’ll miss Morocco. It looked —appropriately— very different from the Westeros sites. Malta/Croatia, not so much. The kind of dry land with some vegetation found in Southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Croatia, Greece, etc.) would ideally suit Dorne or the Western coast of Essos much better, especially considering GRRM said the Dornish culture and ethnicity was mostly Southern European/Mediterranean.

  16. Braincandy
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    oierem,

    Not really. Meereen is a port city. Astapor was rather flat and sandy and then Yunkai became rockier. Both had reddish hues where as Meereen does not might be a bit jarring, but ecologically speaking the transition in environment, from inner desert to coastal range, makes sense.

  17. Dolorous Fredd
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    “Excuse me, do you know the way to Mereen? Oh… that way? Thanks ever so much.”

  18. Luka Nieto
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Braincandy,

    Well, I guess it’s fine then ;)

  19. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Dolorous Fredd: “Excuse me, do you know the way to Meereen? Oh… that way? Thanks ever so much.”

    Well, if you have to ask……you may be living on borrowed time. Good luck finding your way through the chaos….Don’t mind the dragons, harpies, sellswords…..and the thousands of starving, desperate ex-slaves following their liberator mindlessly through the desert.

  20. Turncloak
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Can’t wait to hear the unsullied fan rage when Dany tells us she’s not going to Westeros and is instead staying in Mereen to rule at the end of season 4. XD Luckily there will be awesome moments at the wall and in kings landing at the end of the season to offset that disappointment

  21. Alvis
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Braincandy,

    But actually Meereen was supposed to have more vegetation than the other two, there were supposed to be trees outside it (like olives and stuff like that). I mean, the city is supposed to be where a river (the Skahazadhan) and the sea meet so the change is fine, i guess…

  22. AngryRosFan
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Luka Nieto:
    oierem,

    I Imagine much of the background will be CGI in the shots that need it, as it was oftentimes in Season 1, especially during the end, when they were entering the desert. It was filmed in Malta, this in Croatia. They certainly don’t look the same, but they are pretty similar if we compare them both to Morocco.

    Or, you know, they will probably could do a subtle visual change from desert to *some* vegetation on the way to Meereen, thus making TV-Meereen less desertic than Book-Meereen and the other cities in both versions.

    In other words, there are workarounds for the location change. Although I admit I’ll miss Morocco. It looked —appropriately— very different from the Westeros sites. Malta/Croatia, not so much. The kind of dry land with some vegetation found in Southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Croatia, Greece, etc.) would ideally suit Dorne or the Western coast of Essos much better, especially considering GRRM said the Dornish culture and ethnicity was mostly Southern European/Mediterranean.

    As I recall, there were some green places with rivers or streams on the way from Astapor to Yunkai on the show last season. So, a change in topography as they get closer to the sea wouldn’t be that unusual, I would think. I’m sure they’ll do something exceptional with the scenery. They always do.

  23. Boojam
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    oierem:
    Won’t it be a bit jarring the contrast between Astapor/Yunkai in Morocco and Meereen in Croatia? It seems quite different from the other desertic cities

    Not to forget season 2 all the Esso shooting was in Croatia.
    I know the big Red Waste vistas were CGI but shooting leading up to Qarth was shot on some island? off Croatia? That’s what I remember. In season 2 they did not go to Morroco or Malta.
    From the books I got the impression that land surrounding Meereen was not as arid as it was around Qarth, Astapor and Yunkai , after all the Dothraki Sea is not far north of Meereen.

  24. Ben
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    That dress of Sophie is absolutely fabulous! She looks so grown-up compared to her debuts back in season 1! Sansa has nothing more to envy to Cersei for sure! They do take care of transformating her into a Cersei-like character.

  25. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    I was hoping to see a hair net on her

  26. Boojam
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    In that first photo that flag must be local, nothing like that in ASOIAF that I know of.

  27. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: Can’t wait to hear the unsullied fan rage when Dany tells us she’s not going to Westeros and is instead staying in Mereen to rule at the end of season 4. XD Luckily there will be awesome moments at the wall and in kings landing at the end of the season to offset that disappointment

    I have often wasted an afternoon pondering that same issue….
    Perhaps the showrunners will switch things up a bit and put Dany in the driver’s seat, using Meereen status as a huge port city and her own considerable army and power, to attract what she really needs….which is an efficient escort to Westeros (with maybe a sidetrip to Valyria?…and/or other major Essos cities to mature/gather her forces or ease them through the seasickness).

    Via suitors, traitors and supporters alike…her mission is to sift through these dangerous folk, train her dragons for battle, realign herself with the Dothraki, and find a solid path to Westeros….while surviving the battles and cryptic curses/prophesies that surround her.

  28. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I’m surprised more info hasn’t leaked on the shooting of the PW this week. As it is, the KL scenes in Dubrovnik are almost fully wrapped up. Hopefully some news on the casting of new character’s in Dany’s story will start to trickle in as well.

  29. Howland Reed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Boojam,

    It’s the Croatian national flag.

  30. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    So basically you would have her winning in everything she does? I may not like the whole Meereenese knot, but at least it features her not getting everything she wants and shows how poor of a ruler she would make.

  31. Kilgore Tully
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Part of Dany’s whole schtick is that she’s traveling the world. New season, new place. Meereen might end up more different than Astapor and Yunkai than in the books, but the show deserves some visual fun.

    Those crucifixes are likely for the slave children. Putting them on a mountain pass forces travelers to go by every last one…gruesome little detail.

    The hairnet seems like one of those things that could get dropped. Hope not, it’s such a clever detail, but it might film better to show Olenna doing something a little more obvious.

  32. triforce
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Rutger Hauer was just on Dutch tv telling he finished shooting some scenes for a tv show in Croatia. He thought it was called “the game of lost thrones”……

  33. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: Hodor’s Bastard, So basically you would have her winning in everything she does? I may not like the whole Meereenese knot, but at least it features her not getting everything she wants and shows how poor of a ruler she would make.

    Damn good point…I just contradicted my earlier views I guess. In any case, I do believe that Dany will suffer greatly (and rule horribly) as she pursues these goals but she must get to Westeros for things to make sense, right? Do you believe GRRM/D&D will completely discard her and the 3-headed dragon prophesy?

  34. Bannerless Bro
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    triforce,

    Gosh that would be so cool.

  35. Jake Umber
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    triforce,

    Wait, really? Or is there a joke in there I’m not catching?

  36. Leslie
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    triforce,

    Wasn’t he also in True Blood?

  37. Kilgore Tully
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Do you believe GRRM will completely discard her?

    Completely? No. But she could die and others could carry on in her name with her armies and dragons. Seems highly unlikely, but everything she built would still amount to something important, plot-wise, and, well, leave it to GRRM…

  38. Ours is the Fury
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Very interesting about Rutger Hauer. Have to look into it. Hmmm. He’d make a great Styr. We never had any confirmation of Gatt in the role.

    edit: he mentioned Croatia though? So probably not Styr. Let me think some more. He’s working on some travel show. I hope this wasn’t just so odd joke of his. He couldn’t even get the title of GoT right which is weird.

  39. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    triforce: Rutger Hauer was just on Dutch tv telling he finished shooting some scenes for a tv show in Croatia. He thought it was called “the game of lost thrones”……

    RH’s riveting speech in the rain as his “replicant” char was dying at the end of Bladerunner (“I have…seen things”) is one of the highlights of film history, imho.

  40. triforce
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Jake Umber,

    He said so. No joke on my part.

    Some background info: he was a guest on a dutch talkshow. They were asking him about future projects. He mentioned a documentary and a short film. Then he said he just got back from Croatia shooting for a couple of days in a a tv-series. He thought it was called the game of lost thrones. The host then asked, do you mean game of thrones? To which he replied, I believe that was it.

    So, no 100% confirmation, but a strong indication anyway.
    It is a confirmation that Hauer doesn’t keep up with current tv though. :-)

  41. triforce
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Leslie,

    Don’t know about True Blood, I tried watching that show but gave up after 3 episodes.

  42. mariamb
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    edit: he mentioned Croatia though? So probably not Styr. Let me think some more. He’s working on some travel show. I hope this wasn’t just so odd joke of his. He couldn’t even get the title of GoT right which is weird.

    Getting the title wrong is weird. Hopefully not a joke because this would be awesome.

    Maybe someone in Dany’s storyline…but who?

  43. Urban Bran
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Beyond ready for Sansa’s storyline in S4. Sophie’s time to shine.

  44. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    But Dany’s storyline hasn’t started filming yet, did it? Emilia was at the Toronto Film Festival until a few days ago, and I believe Ian Glen was in Hamburg. Nathalie Emmanuel went to Belfast yesterday or so. He’ll have to be in the King’s Landing storyline.

    Who though?

  45. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    triforce,

    He is 69 years old, so that would narrow the list of characters he could be playing. If he has already filmed in Croatia then that narrows it even further to a King’s Landing role. Hmm. High Septon?

  46. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Kilgore Tully: Do you believe GRRM will completely discard her?

    Completely? No. But she could die and others could carry on in her name with her armies and dragons. Seems highly unlikely, but everything she built would still amount to something important, plot-wise, and, well, leave it to GRRM…

    The point might also simply be that Dany isn’t meant to rule Westeros, she’s meant to save the world. I’ve been taking Quaithe’s word for that so far, and all her visions seem to push her to get to Westeros already, to weed out all those fake Azor Ahais and Mummer Dragons, and find blue roses blooming at the wall.

  47. GeekFurious
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Good to see Hauer has no clue what show he’s on.

  48. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Leslie,

    He was, I think he was the main bad guy last season?

  49. Bannerless Bro
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: RH’s riveting speech in the rain as his “replicant” char was dying at the end of Bladerunner (“I have…seen things”) is one of the highlights of film history, imho.

    And it was improvisation!

  50. mariamb
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    Thanks for that update. Was confused about timing.

    Maybe Addam Marbrand but that seems like a minor role.

  51. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Hmm, this is a very outlandish idea, but could Randyll Tarly be at Margaery and Joffrey’s wedding? He’s Mace Tyrell’s bannerman, after all, and I could see Rutger Hauer playing an aged tough guy.

    Other than this, I could actually see him as Euron Greyjoy, but it would seem to be a bit odd to have him in King’s Landing, when he should be busy stealing thrones up in the North.

  52. Mormegil
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    I believe RH just filmed Scorpion King: The Lost Throne which is probably what he meant not GoT.

    It was in Romania not Croatia though.

    Ian Whyte and Esme Bianco are also in it.

  53. Braincandy
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Alvis,

    Yup. More water = more vegetation.

  54. Ours is the Fury
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil: I believe RH just filmed Scorpion King: The Lost Throne which is probably what he meant not GoT.

    I agree. We’re looking into it, but he was recently in Bucharest for The Scorpion King: The Lost Throne, not in Croatia.
    HearMeRoar checked out the interview himself (he speaks Dutch) and confirmed that Hauer never mentioned Croatia or GoT. The interviewer did in error. Hauer was in Bucharest. False alarm, everyone!

  55. dizzy
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Maybe RH is the Shavepate or Reznak mo Reznak. Would be an early intro to these guys though.

  56. Alvis
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    They were filming in Belfast yesterday and today (the Essos crew), so I assume he’s in Kings Landing, if he actually is in the show…

  57. dizzy
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    or that ;)

  58. Lord Of The Waters
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Going to take a guess at Hauer playing Randyl Tarly at the PW too. Can certainly see him in the role and it would fit with the fact that he was filming in Croatia for a few days around the same time.

  59. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Mormegil:
    I believe RH just filmed Scorpion King: The Lost Throne which is probably what he meant not GoT.

    Hmm, I suddenly have weird crossover ideas.

  60. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that Hauer doesn’t know what the hell he just worked on?

  61. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that Hauer doesn’t know what the hell he just worked on?

    Maybe the old android brain needs a bit of oiling…

    Alvis,

    ah, thanks.

  62. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Wait, the Dany crew is doing scenes in Northern Ireland??? Or is Nathalie there for unrelated reasons?

  63. mariamb
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Agree. Its hilarious and strange. Too bad – he would have been an awesome addition.

  64. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant:
    Wait, the Dany crew is doing scenes in Northern Ireland??? Or is Nathalie there for unrelated reasons?

    Indoor scenes are always done in NI, I believe.

  65. triforce
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    That sounds logical.
    Too bad. It would’ve been pretty cool.

  66. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Garlan the Gallant,

    All interior scenes are shot in Belfast.

  67. Garlan the Gallant
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Huh, TIL. Must’ve forgotten about it due to all the Dany stuff that’s shot outdoors in Croatia/Morocco. Thanks!

  68. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Well, if you have to ask……you may be living on borrowed time. Good luck finding your way through the chaos….Don’t mind the dragons, harpies, sellswords…..and the thousands of starving, desperate ex-slaves following their liberator mindlessly through the desert.

    Silence, infidel ! *>*

    actor Rutgar Hauer is starring on that HBO porn show,
    TrueBlood, correcto ?

  69. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    What a beautiful day on the set of Game of Thrones. All the fresh cut timber
    needing to be ” aged up “, for authenticity ( :

  70. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed,

    Well, he was (is?) on True Blood. Whether that’s really porn, I leave up to you. I haven’t watched it in ages, but back then, it was still a genre show with sex scenes. A lot of sex scenes, admittedly. Most of which weren’t all that sexy, but I guess that’s down to taste.

  71. haltwhogoesthere
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    What’s that on her neck? Are they going to make the poison come from a necklace instead? Minor change that I don’t mind, if so. It looks a lot more natural to have Olenna touch her necklace than mess around with her hair.

    Hmmm purple dress, eh? With Dontos nearby? I wonder.

  72. Luka Nieto
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere,

    She’s had that since Season 1.

  73. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: Silence, infidel ! *>*

    Oh, and as you travel toward your cursed destination, please be aware of these particularly invasive and unbalanced creatures that were imported from the mystical Mt. Shasta area. They lurk under rocks and dragon poop and have been known to EAT YOUR SOUL! Worse than a case of manticores up your bumm!

    ;-) Cheers, WS.

  74. serum
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    he was in TB but not as a bad guy, he was a good guy, the king of the fae and sookies grandfather or great-grandfather – he helped dispatch warlow

  75. I am no Ser
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Urban Bran,

    Same here!!! Sansa’s storyline became one of my faves as the books progressed so I’m looking forward to seeing how they do her stuff this season. Sophie rocks!

  76. Jentario
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Damn. The next few casting articles (probably Dany related) will be the last, and then we’ll be in the dark till the first trailer or BTS :(

  77. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    I think we’ll hear of some new Night’s Watch castings too, as I believe a good chunk of those scenes have yet to film, namely the battle at the Wall.

  78. patchface
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    I can see two Sansas in that picture. Why would Sansa need a double? Is she doing any action scenes?

  79. Luka Nieto
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    patchface,

    Some people are apparently not aware of stand-ins. You know in, for example, dialogue scenes in which the camera is framed on the one talking, but you can see the back of the head of the other person? That may very well be a stand-in. They do that sort of work.

  80. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    triforce,

    He is 69 years old, so that would narrow the list of characters he could be playing.If he has already filmed in Croatia then that narrows it even further to a King’s Landing role. Hmm. High Septon?

    If he was really being truthful, Rutger Hauer is one of the few actors that I’d be happy to see show up on GoT and just be called by their regular name. Gregor Clegane can say “I learned my skills from Rutger Hauer,” and I’d be totally good with it.

  81. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    haltwhogoesthere:
    What’s that on her neck? Are they going to make the poison come from a necklace instead? Minor change that I don’t mind, if so. It looks a lot more natural to have Olenna touch her necklace than mess around with her hair.

    Hmmm purple dress, eh? With Dontos nearby? I wonder.

    Good catch. I didn’t even see that.

    I can actually imagine Olenna leaning in and touching the necklace, complimenting her on how pretty it and she is. I’m getting very excited for the PW.

    Unrelated, but I saw this cute/creepy little list of GOT characters as dogs.
    http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/the-dogs-of-game-of-thrones

  82. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    DAMN! Can we just digitally insert him anyway? Preferably from The Hitcher?

  83. Sundancer
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    They probably shot a bunch of extra Morocco background footage last year that they can use this year to establish exterior locations.

  84. Delirium33
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Boojam,

    The Red Waste and Quarth scenes where actually filmed in Croatia.

  85. Ren Snow
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    My guess is those crosses will be for the disemboweled slave boys Dany finds on her way to Meereen, though more likely the show will feature adult slaves

  86. That Stark boy
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Well, if you have to ask……you may be living on borrowed time. Good luck finding your way through the chaos….Don’t mind the dragons, harpies, sellswords…..and the thousands of starving, desperate ex-slaves following their liberator mindlessly through the desert.

    EXACTLY what I thought.

  87. Skyofwelkup
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    That structure they’re building. Notice how high up it is? Could that possibly be the balcony or terrace of the Mereen Pyramid where Dany has an encounter with Quaithe?

  88. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    Ronald:
    When I see those pictures, I totally think of Juliet. Why did she leave me? She was my everything. It would make sense to have it this season, because remember her beautiful strawberry blonde hair in the wind. Juliet. Please come back. Should be a good season!

    Yes, it is sort of a Romeo/ Juliette vibe…….. sort of. ( :

  89. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:48 pm | Permalink
  90. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    WildSeed,

    Well, he was (is?) on True Blood. Whether that’s really porn, I leave up to you. I haven’t watched it in ages, but back then, it was still a genre show with sex scenes. A lot of sex scenes, admittedly. Most of which weren’t all that sexy, but I guess that’s down to taste.

    I took much liberty with respects to porn, by definition . I haven’t watched
    TrueBlood for 3 years , I learned somewhere in the news press that he was
    Hauer was starring in some role. I enjoyed the Skarsporn, but little else
    about the show, or it’s forever evolving premise.

  91. WildSeed
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    We need actor Karl Urban, on some role…… maybe Jon Connington.

  92. Jerome
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Rutger Hauer’s memory is failing. I’ve seen the interview.
    He confused the titles The Scorpion King 4: The Lost Throne with Game of Thrones.
    He didn’t mention Croatia, but Bucharest, Romania.

  93. Ours is the Fury
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Jerome,

    Yeah, I posted about it further up. It was the interviewer’s mistake, really. No Rutger Hauer for Thrones, unfortunately. :(

  94. dogs
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Skyofwelkup,

    Don’t look like Quaithe will be in this season. At least, from what I can tell from the actress’ twitter and recent interviews, she seems pretty out of the loop. Alas. She seems to really enjoy the show and probably would enjoy being back, but for whatever reasons the showrunners aren’t using her.

  95. Harry Lime
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Loki,

    SPOILERS Sansa becomes a warlock!

  96. Skyofwelkup
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    dogs,

    Seems like a dumb decision on their part. I recall there being a lot of people wondering about the mysterious masked girl from season 2. They have to bring her back at some point. Why introduce her at all?

  97. Jentario
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    Skyofwelkup,

    Maybe they had plans for her at first but decided to cut her along the way. Sad, since the character is extremely intriguing in the books.

  98. Abyss
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Off-Topic:
    Corvidae the short film with Maisie Williams in the leading role seeks founding through indiegogo. They have a flexible funding model, which means whatever can be raised they will get, but the official goal is £20,000. 15% of funds raised above this target will be donated to a charity of Maisie Williams’ choice.
    The film looks really good and I definitely consider backing it.

  99. Nicole
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Lady Sansa, looking fierce! Can’t wait to see her handling the changes coming up!

  100. Ser Tahu
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Just a few questions:

    1) Has anyone managed to glimpse Pedro Pascal in costume yet? I am dying to see what they do with Oberyn Martell.

    2) Any word on whether Patrick Malahide (Balon Greyjoy) or Gemma Whelan (YarAsha Greyjoy) have filmed anything yet?

    and 3) Is it confirmed that Rickon and Osha aren’t in season 4? (I really hope they are, and it would be a missed opportunity if they aren’t. If anything it would make more sense for them to be absent from season 5 instead of season 4. Also, OItF keeps on tweeting about more and more adult actresses being involved in season 4, if they fill this season with prostitutes instead of Rickon and Osha that would be a travesty)

  101. Skyofwelkup
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Jentario,

    I know, right? I was hoping to see her in season 3 and keep her as a recurring character. If you have ever played the game “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time” I was thinking she could act like Sheik from that game and pop up mysteriously from time to time to deliver cryptic riddled messages to Dany. She’s one of the supernatural elements I really hoped to see that would be utilized to flesh out the prophecies within the show.

    Ser Tahu,

    Haven’t heard anything on the first two questions, but regarding your number 3 I have heard that there hasn’t been any news of Natalia or Art filming this year which is a huge shame. I was hoping they would go to White Harbor instead of Last Hearth and we would actually see their journey on screen as the newly introduced Wyman Manderly sends them to Skagos. That would set up the character for later in the season when Davos finds himself in the Merman’s court. Davos’ chapters were some of my favorite in aDwD.

  102. Arthur
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    I also can’t wait to see what House Martell wardrobes will look like and I can not wait to see how badass Oberyn will look in armor…

    Oberyn in full armor with House Martell colors and insignia is the second thing I can’t wait to see.

    The first thing is news of if Dany’s Dragons will be bigger and more mature in season 4…

    When either of these two things are confirmed (Oberyn photos or Dragon size/maturity news) I am sure WiC will post a new thread immediately for all of us to see and read.

  103. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Skyofwelkup: dogs, Seems like a dumb decision on their part. I recall there being a lot of people wondering about the mysterious masked girl from season 2. They have to bring her back at some point. Why introduce her at all?

    Have no fear, my friend. Perhaps as Dany starts “losing” and chaos becomes apparent in Meereen, a certain sneaky someone will appear and enlighten her….possibly giving her more than a “spontaneous” reason to jump on Drogon’s back when given the chance. Meereen/Yunkai is going to go to hell quickly and she must return to the mayhem with a plan to attain her ultimate goal….or die trying. Probably in late S5 though, so we’ve got plenty of time to speculate.

    Just some crazy late night thoughts from an impatient wight.

    Totally off-topic: “The Bridge” is a damn good show as well. Tonight’s latest episode was riveting, with no happy ending. Not quite BB, but the formula for awesome shows is spreading to FX.

    Also, trailers for the upcoming “American Horror Story: Coven” are blowing me away. Damn this is a good time for eerie creativity.

    Just trying to bide my spare free time before Mar 31, 2014……and especially before TWoW! Oh well…

  104. Skyofwelkup
    Posted September 18, 2013 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I like that idea. We can only hope.

  105. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    WildSeed: I took much liberty with respects to porn, by definition . I haven’t watched
    TrueBlood for 3 years , I learned somewhere in the news press that he was
    Hauer was starring in some role. I enjoyed the Skarsporn, but little else
    about the show, or it’s forever evolving premise.

    I think the show would have had potential, if the PTB hadn’t decided to make it so camp that it stopped being interesting altogether.

    I enjoyed Lafayette, Eric and Pam the most. I would have watched a spinoff about them. But other than that… *shrugs*

    Ser Tahu,

    on your second question, Gemma Whelan has been very, very quiet about GoT. From her twitter, I got the feeling she isn’t even allowed to say if she’s in this season, or if so, how much. She did an awful lot of theatre and standup during August, though, so she might just be filming later.
    As for Patrick Malahide, I only know that he filmed for New Worlds, which makes him the third GoT actor on that show (Joe Dempsie and Josef Altin being the two others). But no one spotted him last year, either, so he could easily have already filmed Balon’s death. I don’t think they’ll let him die offscreen, now that they’ve already taken the pains to bring him back.

  106. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    Urban Bran:
    Beyond ready for Sansa’s storyline in S4. Sophie’s time to shine.

    After the travesty they made of her story in season 3, I don’t have any great expectations of the writers giving Sophie “time to shine”. Dontos apparently getting all of one episode of buildup is ridiculous.

  107. Loki
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    why did they cut all of dontos in season 2, again?

  108. Ren Snow
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    Skyofwelkup,

    Wyman never sends Osha and Rickon to Skagos… Lord Wyman learns it from Wex Pyke, who seemingly heard Osha

  109. Ser Tahu
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    Thanks for the info, but the Mods may want to add spoiler tags to this post.

  110. triforce
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:38 am | Permalink
  111. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Yes, it was such a travesty. All because she kneeled for Tyrion. Never mind the fact that her kneeling was in defiance of Joffrey. Or was it something else? I sure as hell don’t remember such a travesty. But I’m assuming travesty = wasn’t exactly how it was in the books.

  112. Leo
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I wouldn’t be as dramatic as “travesty” but after having it pointed out to me, it was indeed annoying to see Sansa still being dumb in S3.

    Her “Do you think they’ll let me invite my family?”
    Her “Did your mother teach you all that?” (to Margaery)
    Falling for gay Loras

    A few examples, I’m guessing.

  113. vlad
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 4:49 am | Permalink

    It doesn’t look right for the Vale, of course with smart shots, and CGI it could work. But those open vistas I think would be perfect for the top of the great pyramid in Meereen

  114. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Leo,

    Leo:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I wouldn’t be as dramatic as “travesty” but after having it pointed out to me, it was indeed annoying to see Sansa still being dumb in S3.

    Her “Do you think they’ll let me invite my family?”
    Her “Did your mother teach you all that?” (to Margaery)
    Falling for gay Loras

    A few examples, I’m guessing.

    She wasn’t being dumb. The sentence about her family is just her version of Arya’s “Could you bring back a man without a head? Not six times, just once?” Both know that it is not possible, but both had to ask it.

    And the other two things – Sansa is the daughter of high nobles, very sheltered and a bit naive. There is no way she even knows something like men who love other men exists. And of course she wouldn’t think that Margaery talks from her own experience. Noble girls don’t go out and have sexual adventures before marriage, so obviously Margaery’s mother would have told her these things.

    I really sometimes think people make things extra difficult for Sansa. Whatever she does, viewers berate her as bitchy or dumb, without taking her circumstances into account.

  115. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Ser Tahu,

    thanks for the spoiler reminder (and the mods for dealing with it). That one slipped through, I’m afraid.

  116. Roekest
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Bethany,

    I don’t know. A brutal rape at an Inn and kids crucified? I’m sure we’ll see adults up there but it might be too much, even for this show, to even CGI hundreds of kids crucified.

  117. Loki
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Roekest, too little, i say. rip their bellies open and cut their genitalia off, that’ll be too much. also what’s all the fuss about rape unacceptability? its nothing compared to what we’ve already seen on the show

  118. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Sean C.,

    Yes, it was such a travesty. All because she kneeled for Tyrion. Never mind the fact that her kneeling was in defiance of Joffrey.Or was it something else? I sure as hell don’t remember such a travesty. But I’m assuming travesty = wasn’t exactly how it was in the books.

    No, a travesty is making her story all about Tyrion (even her family’s deaths is all about Tyrion), removing all her moments of strength, and making pretty much the entire second half of her season a succession of scenes designed to make the audience laugh at her for being dumb (episodes 6, 7, and 10). Given the writers track record of putting the emphasis in Sansa’s scenes on whoever else is in the scene with her, I expect the Vale to be a Littlefinger showcase, with Sansa as his lust object.

  119. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    I’m not always happy how the show is handling Sansa’s storyline, but that’s really giving them too little credit. They didn’t design scenes to make the audience laugh at Sansa – the majority of the viewership is unfair to Sansa because she’s not Arya, plain and simple, and that’s certainly not different from the book readers – and her scenes with Shae, Margaery and the Queen of Thorns were consistently good.

    As for her scenes with Tyrion – the wedding isn’t filmed to be about him. It’s about her. It’s also about how he treats her, which connects him to Stannis, Sam, Sandor and Daario in that specific episode, but it’s a lot more about her feelings and well-being than his.

    I agree that they should have concentrated more on Sansa’s reaction to the RW, but I did like that they hinted at least at a chance that she and Tyrion might find a common ground before it all went to hell – it shows that despite her misgivings, Sansa is willing to compromise and find different solutions than sulking, something that makes her being a budding politician far more convincing.

  120. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Leo, She wasn’t being dumb. The sentence about her family is just her version of Arya’s “Could you bring back a man without a head? Not six times, just once?” Both know that it is not possible, but both had to ask it.And the other two things – Sansa is the daughter of high nobles, very sheltered and a bit naive. There is no way she even knows something like men who love other men exists. And of course she wouldn’t think that Margaery talks from her own experience. Noble girls don’t go out and have sexual adventures before marriage, so obviously Margaery’s mother would have told her these things.I really sometimes think people make things extra difficult for Sansa. Whatever she does, viewers berate her as bitchy or dumb, without taking her circumstances into account.

    Although we could debate if Sansa actually realizes how naive she is or how much of a pawn that she plays in the royal game, I honestly believe that GRRM wrote her to be the complete opposite of Arya, living on the silky thread of “someday, someday” hope and needing others to mold her and tell her what to do. If she was truly savvy, she would have left during the Blackwater chaos with the Hound…he wanted to save her for a second time but that “knight in shining armor” story isn’t what ASoI&F is about. Sansa’s life is a different kind of torture, subject to a different level of evil than many others in Westeros.

    Amongst the royals and nobles for all her life, she assumes the privileged stance and says and does everything she is supposed to say and do. But she has no ambition other than “fitting in.” She knows nothing of the game of thrones, or if she does, she only contemplates it privately. Furthermore, she is truly damaged by the violence around her, what she has seen and heard about her family and has become sadly pathetic. In S4, we should finally see her gain some self-respect back, but she still will be told what to do and have no real initiative…told to just do this, meet this guy here, wear this, leave now…blah, blah, blah….she continues to be manipulated.

    Come on, Sansa…where’s your “Carpe Diem”?

    Hopefully, there will be the great “snow castle” scene with her in the Vale (with the “Sounds of Silence” playing in the background…jk). Truly, it is a spectacularly-written chapter, especially with the LF interaction and the passive Lysa observation…yet it ultimately serves as a sad, delusional metaphor of how her life is a “snow globe”…completely encapsulated by the whims of others.

    Maybe in S5/TWoW, Sansa will finally wake up…but I doubt it.

  121. Pau
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    People uses the word Travesty a lot in this thread :P

  122. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    just remember you’re talking about a twelve-year-old girl, fourteen on the show. Of course she’s getting manipulated – much older people are, too, by people who are very seasoned at manipulating others. And of course her main goal was to fit in, why not? There was nothing that seemed wrong about her wishes, they were what she’d been told is the greatest thing there is, all her life.

    Don’t put too much credit into her being “the direct opposite of Arya.” This doesn’t lead to Arya being the character who gets challenged and developed and Sansa the one who stagnates – on the contrary, when you’re looking at the books right now, they are virtually in the same place another identity, apprenticeship in dubious skills, led by dubious people. Ned’s sentence about them possibly being as different as the sun and the moon, but yet two sides of the same coin is key here, I think, and it is one that is from the books. It’s one that Martin wrote.

    Also, remember, when she dreams of her marriage to Willas, she dreams of having sons named Bran and Rickon and Ned, and maybe a daughter like Arya – and how she would raise them all to hate Lannisters. And also remember that her first thought at Littlefinger’s plan about Harry the Heir is “but I don’t want to marry again.” And her observation that Baelish is indeed more or less two people, which is more astute than what most of the adults think about him.

    Don’t dismiss her for being pathetic, it’s a very shallow reading of her chapters.

    ETA: the Hound saving her – in the books, he was so creepy, I really don’t fault her for not going with him (threatening someone to sing to them with a knife to her throat is not a way of making you trust someone), and on the show, staying in the light of Stannis’ impending victory was the sanest thing she could do. Be sensible. Run off with a deserter, who is less than reliable, and might leave you alone somewhere to be raped and killed while he’s drunk off his head? Or better still, be hanged right next to him when the Lannisters catch him? Better to stay put and wait for Stannis, who does after all have a reputation for being just (and he wouldn’t have done anything to her, that much is clear).

    It’s sometimes easy to overlook that characters don’t have the same information we have. From Sansa’s point of view and her level of knowledge, it made more sense to stay in that moment. That doesn’t make her pathetic or undecisive. It just shows that she can keep a cool head in a crisis.

  123. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    Sansa’s pathos is what makes her interesting.

  124. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I plainly disagree. I don’t see a pathetic character, I see someone who suddenly got thrown into deep water and is now learning how to swim. I think assigning her the role of the permanent victim is turning her storyline into a Victorian sob story, and it’s really not that stereotypical at all.

    btw, it fascinates me that we can interpret the same thing so differently – I just reread your thoughts about the snow castle scene, and to me, it’s not that at all. To me, it shows her finally realizing that she draws strength from being a Stark, a Northerner – a confirmation of her identity as Sansa Stark, even though she doesn’t realize it. And I think it means if someone rebuilds Winterfell, it will be her. I don’t see a snowglobe here, nor force from the outside. Even her interaction with LF is one of equals. And her destruction of SR’s doll shows that she can be just as ferocious as Arya in her anger.

  125. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Sean C.,
    I’m not always happy how the show is handling Sansa’s storyline, but that’s really giving them too little credit. They didn’t design scenes to make the audience laugh at Sansa

    Episode 6: Haha, Sansa doesn’t realize Loras is gay, and is so dumb that she thinks her family will be coming her wedding!
    Episode 7: Haha, Sansa is so dumb she thinks Margaery learned all this from her mom (and doesn’t realize what a wonderful, sexy, perfect husband Tyrion will be)!
    Episode 10: Haha, Sansa is so dumb she doesn’t know the “shit”!

    Couple this with the complete removal of her more active parts of the story, and any scenes that emphasize Sansa’s strengths as a character.

    As for her scenes with Tyrion – the wedding isn’t filmed to be about him. It’s about her. It’s also about how he treats her, which connects him to Stannis, Sam, Sandor and Daario in that specific episode, but it’s a lot more about her feelings and well-being than his.

    No, it absolutely is not. Tyrion gets far more screentime pertaining to the wedding than she does, and far more focus on his feelings. Moreover, their shared scenes are overwhelmingly filmed from his POV.

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    If she was truly savvy, she would have left during the Blackwater chaos with the Hound…he wanted to save her for a second time but that “knight in shining armor” story isn’t what ASoI&F is about.

    The Hound in the books is a violent, raving drunk who had been holding a knife to her throat and on the verge of raping her moments before. Yeah, anybody would have chose to go with him.

  126. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Hodor’s Bastard, I plainly disagree. I don’t see a pathetic character, I see someone who suddenly got thrown into deep water and is now learning how to swim. I think assigning her the role of the permanent victim is turning her storyline into a Victorian sob story, and it’s really not that stereotypical at all.btw, it fascinates me that we can interpret the same thing so differently – I just reread your thoughts about the snow castle scene, and to me, it’s not that at all. To me, it shows her finally realizing that she draws strength from being a Stark, a Northerner – a confirmation of her identity as Sansa Stark, even though she doesn’t realize it. And I think it means if someone rebuilds Winterfell, it will be her. I don’t see a snowglobe here, nor force from the outside. Even her interaction with LF is one of equals. And her destruction of SR’s doll shows that she can be just as ferocious as Arya in her anger.

    There was a reason why GRRM wrote that scene where Sansa betrays her sister, Arya, in favor of the King’s/Joffrey’s positive opinion of her (that was the only reason…completely selfish), and getting an innocent boy killed. She wasn’t willing to be strong and defend her sister. That was only the beginning of her pathos, imho…remember, she only wandered to the KL gardens to passively pray for selfish reasons…(yawn)….then Dontos/LF came to her with a plan… Again, GRRM makes a point over and over again of her being a willing victim of manipulation.

    Even though I respect your well-stated characterization of Sansa, and I truly hope she finds her path back to self-respect from that initial betrayal….yes, I agree…some very mature thoughts also start appearing during the “snow castle” scene. Perhaps she is “thinking this through”…but is that intellectual tolerance in lieu of a naive reward or truly more pathos for her….?

  127. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.: Episode 6:Haha, Sansa doesn’t realize Loras is gay, and is so dumb that she thinks her family will be coming her wedding!
    Episode 7:Haha, Sansa is so dumb she thinks Margaery learned all this from her mom (and doesn’t realize what a wonderful, sexy, perfect husband Tyrion will be)!
    Episode 10:Haha, Sansa is so dumb she doesn’t know the “shit”!

    None of these moments make Sansa dumb. All of these moments make Sansa the sheltered and protected daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark.

    Just because modern girls know what homosexuality means, doesn’t mean a young lady in a medievally inspired fantasy world would. Or can you imagine Ned and Cat explaining that to her? Same for her thinking that Margaery got all these thoughts from her mother. Sansa is a lot younger than Margaery, and the Starks are a lot less wordly than the Tyrells (North and South differences). A noble girl doesn’t get sexual experience before marriage. This is what Sansa *knows.* It may be naivity, but it’s not stupid.
    And yes, same for her not knowing the word shit. She’s was sheltered. She didn’t run around with stableboys who may have taught her dirty words. That scene is meant to underscore that Sansa is innocent, not that she is dumb.

    Tyrion gets a lot of screentime, yes, because it’s also his story. But watch the parts where Sansa is being dressed up and when she goes into the church – the camera is from her point of view. When Tyrion makes an ass of himself at the reception, we see her reaction. And we end up on her after the scene in the bedroom. It’s not all him.

    I also still see plenty of scenes that show Sansa’s strength of character. Saving Dontos. Standing up to Joffrey, several times. Keeping to her story of “loving Joffrey.” Lying to Littlefinger. Making up stories about the ships with Shae, and thinking of things to do to the courtiers that laugh at them with Tyrion.

    I think Sansa is a very difficult character to translate from book to screen, because she is so very introspective and mostly stands aside and observes. The show sometimes does well by her, and sometimes it doesn’t, we agree on this. I simply don’t think it’s as bad as you make it out to be, and I especially doubt that the scenes in the Vale will be primarily about Littlefinger.

  128. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.: The Hound in the books is a violent, raving drunk who had been holding a knife to her throat and on the verge of raping her moments before. Yeah, anybody would have chose to go with him.

    Oh, come on , dude. The Hound was the only person in KL that showed her any respect after her father was murdered….and he proved it by saving her from being raped by the KL smallfolk. If not for the knife at her throat, she would have screamed before she realized he was scared and “defeated”. He took the knife away after a few moments. Some of the most evil bastards in history had a soft side to some treasured few. He would never hurt her, and she knew it…after he told her his story. Beauty and the Beast, man…character developement, dude.

  129. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    hmm, I see that scene different, too, and tbh, the people responsible for Micah’s death were in order, Joffrey, the Queen, the King, and the Hound. Not Sansa, or Arya. People forget during that scene that adults were involved.

    I’m going to be honest, I think this discussion is about as pointless as our conversations about Victarion, because I don’t see or understand how you came up with your interpretations of Sansa’s chapters. I think you severely misinterpret Martin’s intentions for this character, and you have a reading of Sansa that I don’t think really fits the text. But alas, each of us is entitled to their opinion, and personally, I’d be happy to leave it at this point.

  130. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: None of these moments make Sansa dumb. All of these moments make Sansa the sheltered and protected daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark.

    No, in the world of the show, they make Sansa dumb. Only a complete idiot would think that family would be coming to her wedding.

    Sure, a person might not know about homosexuality, but on this show she’s literally the only person who doesn’t know, as Loras’ transparent homosexuality is a huge joke on the show (which also does Loras no favours).

    The writers compulsively make Sansa a punchline in her own scenes for no goddamn reason, insuring that that’s all anybody in the audience will focus on, and cutting off any possibility of people developing any respect for her. You see that repeatedly in the comments about people calling her an idiot because she never learns anything, and, indeed, from the evidence of season 3, there’s no evidence she has learned anything. She acts like she’s on vacation for most of season 3. Essentially all the “moments of strength” you cite are from season 2.

    Hodor’s Bastard: Oh, come on , dude. The Hound was the only person in KL that showed her any respect after her father was murdered….and he proved it by saving her from being raped by the KL smallfolk.

    And also threatened to rape her himself. Hence, why she’s still scared of him.

  131. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    I just… don’t agree. It is problematic to make so many people be aware that Loras is gay, but none of them is a naive noble girl, either. I doubt that Myrcella would know for instance.

    And I think she kind of is “on vacation” for Season 3 – she has found people she thinks she can trust. She’s wrong.

    Even if we say that TPTB should have been more clear that she learned things through Season 2 and is using them in Season 3, they are really not responsible for people thinking Sansa is an idiot. Look at the book readers. Hell, look at HB and my conversation just now. Show unfortunately doesn’t make it better, but misinterpretations of the character were off long before it was conceived.

  132. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Sean C.,
    And I think she kind of is “on vacation” for Season 3 – she has found people she thinks she can trust. She’s wrong.

    Except for where the writers completely miss the point of her interactions with the Tyrells, who don’t abandon her like they do in the books. She was supposed to realize that Margaery isn’t actually her friend, but Margaery on the show actually is her friend and doesn’t ditch her, so no character development there. And good old Shae.

    Even if we say that TPTB should have been more clear that she learned things through Season 2 and is using them in Season 3, they are really not responsible for people thinking Sansa is an idiot. Look at the book readers. Hell, look at HB and my conversation just now. Show unfortunately doesn’t make it better, but misinterpretations of the character were off long before it was conceived.

    The difference is that book readers are wrong, whereas it’s much harder to argue that about the TV show version, who actually is written as an idiot all season, and lacks any particular strengths. She’s framed repeatedly as “the other person” in scenes with Tyrion, Margaery, Shae, etc., invariably used to emphasize how much smarter/wordlier/wiser those characters are.

    Again, what’s your explanation for Sansa’s belief that her family will be attending her wedding that doesn’t make her dumb? That’s far past being naive; only somebody who has no understanding whatsoever of her present circumstances and has completely forgotten everything that’s happened in the last two years could possibly say that.

  133. V
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:28 pm | Permalink
  134. We do not Hodor
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Sean C., P>And I think she kind of is “on vacation” for Season 3 – she has found people she thinks she can trust. She’s wrong. .

    She is not wrong though because she only “trusts” them to an extent. She doesn’t tell Shae about her plans to escape with Littlefinger and she refused to tell Margeary what she was praying for at the stump of the weirwood tree.

  135. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Sean C.:
    Again, what’s your explanation for Sansa’s belief that her family will be attending her wedding that doesn’t make her dumb?That’s far past being naive; only somebody who has no understanding whatsoever of her present circumstances and has completely forgotten everything that’s happened in the last two years could possibly say that.

    Like I said above, I really saw that in the same sentiment as Arya asking whether Thoros could bring back Ned. They don’t really believe it, but it would be nice to hope.

    I do like Sansa’s interactions with Margaery and Shae, so I guess I’m just not with you in that case. Margaery dropping Sansa like a hot potatoe would have been a lesson to Sansa, but would have limited Margaery as a character. Now she can learn from her in the sense that she might take on some of Margaery’s pragmatism – and she might still feel betrayed, if the Tyrells implicate her in Joffrey’s death.

    As for Shae – oh for heaven’s sake. Shae in the book is something like a spiteful fuck doll, so I’ll take the TV version over her any day. And once Littlefinger or Dontos tells Sansa Shae was Tyrion’s lover the whole time, she’ll rightfully feel betrayed and stop trusting her.

    We do not Hodor,

    you’re right, a misrepresentation on my side.

  136. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Hodor’s Bastard, hmm, I see that scene different, too, and tbh, the people responsible for Micah’s death were in order, Joffrey, the Queen, the King, and the Hound. Not Sansa, or Arya. People forget during that scene that adults were involved.I’m going to be honest, I think this discussion is about as pointless as our conversations about Victarion, because I don’t see or understand how you came up with your interpretations of Sansa’s chapters. I think you severely misinterpret Martin’s intentions for this character, and you have a reading of Sansa that I don’t think really fits the text. But alas, each of us is entitled to their opinion, and personally, I’d be happy to leave it at this point.

    It’s interesting that you reduce a decent conversation to “pointless” when the viewpoint simply differs from yours. You have some great points to make about this fictional universe but your dismissive attitude is disappointing. Why can’t we enjoyably discuss a topic without being dismissive or insulting? One thing about blogs is that they have no real inflection, no way to truly determine the commenter’s sincerity or not.

    As you have stated, Sansa is a tough character to call (and convey to the screen) and her actions and thoughts can be interpreted in a variety of ways….personal projection and assumed character enhancement not withstanding.

    Finally….Victarian rules!

  137. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Sean C.,
    Like I said above, I really saw that in the same sentiment as Arya asking whether Thoros could bring back Ned. They don’t really believe it, but it would be nice to hope.

    Those aren’t remotely comparable. Arya has just met a magic man who can revive the dead. She cautiously, wearily asks whether he can bring back her dad too. It’s not an unreasonable question, given what she’s seen Thoros can do. The scene is played mournfully, with Maisie Williams showing sadness and gravitas.

    Sansa’s scene is purely played for laughs, with Sansa chirpily wondering if her family will be there just after cooing over the possibility of a new dress, and Shae’s expression in response to Sansa’s stupid comment as the audience surrogate for what a dumb question that was. It’s a scene with absolutely no weight, and cannot have been intended to be like Arya’s.

    I do like Sansa’s interactions with Margaery and Shae, so I guess I’m just not with you in that case. Margaery dropping Sansa like a hot potatoe would have been a lesson to Sansa, but would have limited Margaery as a character.

    Margaery’s role in this story is to support Sansa’s character development. The fact that it would have “limited her as a character” is irrelevant if you keep her purpose in mind.

    The whole damn point of the Tyrell plot, from the perspective of Sansa’s character, is for her to learn that the Lannisters and the Tyrells aren’t any different, are only interested in her claim, and that she was wrong to trust them. Whereas the show, per even the actresses who play them, consider their relationship genuine. And there’s no indication that these changes are meant to give different character development, as Sansa does not follow Margaery’s advice or really appear to be learning anything from it. The punchline of the scene is that, hee hee, Sansa has completely misunderstood Margaery’s adult conversation about sex, and ends with Margaery looking at her and contemplating how dumb she is.

  138. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I’m sorry if I came across as dismissive. I sometimes find it difficult to end conversations appropriately. I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. It does frustrate me that I don’t know why you came to the conclusions you were drawing, and I didn’t know how we could come to something like… I don’t know, a safe middleground? I’m a bit biased when it comes to Sansa, I won’t deny that – I see lots of subconscious sexism in the way people view her. In that regard, it’s great to talk to both you and Sean C., because you both point out the moments that bother you, instead of just saying “Sansa sucks” or “The show’s representation of Sansa sucks.”

    I think this would be easier, in the end, if the series was already finished – without knowing where Sansa ultimately ends up, we can only try to estimate how Martin sees her, and if his representation of her matches what he wants to say with her.

    Again, sorry for coming across as dismissive. I’m ESL, too, which is obviously not an excuse, but sometimes leads to me probably not coming across quite as I wish.

    ETA: He so does not. ;)

  139. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Margaery’s role in this story is to support Sansa’s character development.The fact that it would have “limited her as a character” is irrelevant if you keep her purpose in mind.

    Margaery is certainly more a character in her own right on the show.

    I didn’t see these scenes as presenting Sansa as dumb. I think Margaery and Shae conveyed that they realized that Sansa was naive and not worldly. This is how I interpreted their looks and expressions.

  140. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    I’m a bit biased when it comes to Sansa, I won’t deny that – I see lots of subconscious sexism in the way people view her.

    There’s tons of sexism is fan reactions to Sansa. The problem is that the writers also share in this, as part of their broader problem: if you’re a female character and aren’t a spunky tomboy like Arya and Brienne, or a hyper-sexed seductress like Margaery, the writers have little interest or sense of what to do with you. Hence, Sansa, and poor Catelyn, who they mangled into a traditional mother figure and then ignored until it was time for her to die.

    It’s telling that Brienne in the books is a naive romantic who is really a lot like Sansa, but in the show she’s been converted into an older version of Arya.

  141. Rygar
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    So I am re-reading ADwD for the second time and I must say it is far better and more enjoyable without any elated hope or expectation. Book Fans who loathe deviation should view the show with the same mindset or watch it wasted and/or high.

  142. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Sean C.: There’s tons of sexism is fan reactions to Sansa.The problem is that the writers also share in this, as part of their broader problem:if you’re a female character and aren’t a spunky tomboy like Arya and Brienne, or a hyper-sexed seductress like Margaery, the writers have little interest or sense of what to do with you.Hence, Sansa, and poor Catelyn, who they mangled into a traditional mother figure and then ignored until it was time for her to die.

    I get what you mean. I don’t think that the writers are quite that bad, actually – I believe they like both Catelyn and Sansa, and are at least interested in Sansa – but they certainly find it easier to write women who are closer to types than to realistic persons. I think Cersei is still the most complex one on the show, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Lena Headey has at least some input in how she’s written.

    Taking Brienne as an example, I do like the show version a lot, but she’s closer to a generic “female knight” character than to the Brienne in the books, whose insecurity about her gender identity and place in the world are such a big part of who she is.

    It does make a certain sense to me, though. The books have a lot more space to elaborate on the single characters, and where they can shuffle anyone who is not a POV character to the side at inopportune moments, the show simply cannot do that. So they stick to types more often than not. That doesn’t always completely work out, and sadly, it’s often the more “unconventional” characters that suffer from it.

  143. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    So I am re-reading ADwD for the second time and I must say it is far better and more enjoyable without any elated hope or expectation.Book Fans who loathe deviation should view the show with the same mindset or watch it wasted and/or high.

    lol, Rygar. I agree partly, but the show is really not that bad that it has to be watched wasted or high. I should know, I’ve seen a lot of crappy fantasy shows.

  144. Skyofwelkup
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Ren Snow,

    That’s right! It’s been awhile since I’ve read aDwD, so I’m looking forward to the upcoming paperback release.

    Does anyone else find it odd that they made the point to identify Wendel on the show but he didn’t have any speaking lines or character development? Is it possible they made him Wyman’s only son in the show and he was not killed but imprisoned in place of book Wylis? Just a thought.

  145. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Sansa was a passive and naive ditz in the books and is the same in the show. The whole point is that she does start to change, but not until events that have not taken place yet in the show. This is another Stannis situation. Fans of the books have knowledge of where the character is going and forget how they were during the same point that the show is at.

  146. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Nah. D&D don’t share my exact vision of a character and because of this they are hacks who don’t understand the books.

  147. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    the difference is that you can like someone even when they are at a less than perfect state. I like Show!Stannis, too. Granted, I have hardly the view of Book!Stannis the “Mannis” fans seem to have – I like him because he’s utterly and completely fucked up.

    I think it comes down to whether you can believe that characters can develop and change or not. A lot of people seem to assume automatically that Sansa is doomed to fail, which is I believe a very dense mix of unacknowledged sexism, misogyny, and the expectation that feminine characters are only foils for the “better women,” who are meant to be somehow punished for being more traditional (which is admittedly a rampant cliche not only in fantasy).

  148. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    I’m not saying people still didn’t like Sansa pre-Littlefinger apprenticeship. I’m just saying her character in the show is not really different from the books. Her problem, like Jon, is that everything is internal, though even her internal monologues in the books were naive and ditzy. That will always be a problem in the show, though it should improve a bit when she is seperated from the Lannisters.

  149. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The Blue Grace,

    I’m not saying people still didn’t like Sansa pre-Littlefinger apprenticeship. I’m just saying her character in the show is not really different from the books. Her problem, like Jon, is that everything is internal, though even her internal monologues in the books were naive and ditzy.That will always be a problem in the show, though it should improve a bit when she is seperated from the Lannisters.

    Ah, okay! What I wanted to say, mainly, is that my first impression of Sansa was on the show – having read the books between Seasons 1 and 2 – so my expectations of what might become of her weren’t so much fueled by what will happen in the books. Even though I’m not a massive Whedon disciple, I did watch Buffy at a formative time in my life, and so I know never to underestimate the pretty girl or the ditz. And you make a really good point, thank you.

  150. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: The Blue Grace, I’m not saying people still didn’t like Sansa pre-Littlefinger apprenticeship. I’m just saying her character in the show is not really different from the books.

    When LF goes in for the smooch (with Lysa watching) during the snow castle scene at the Vale, we’ll brutally see how much we give credence to “Sansa’s LF apprenticeship”. That scene, along with the “Only Cat” scene, has to be handled deftly…hopefully with Sansa realizing her situation and becoming instantly aware of how grotesquely she is being used/manipulated.

  151. Turncloak
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I don’t think Sansa is aware of how she is being manipulated. She is still playing the roll of Littlefinger’s pawn in A Dance with Dragons.

  152. Jentario
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I always loved ADWD. The only thing missing was a proper ending.

  153. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Sansa was a passive and naive ditz in the books and is the same in the show. The whole point is that she does start to change, but not until events that have not taken place yet in the show.This is another Stannis situation. Fans of the books have knowledge of where the character is going and forget how they were during the same point that the show is at.

    No, I’ve reread Sansa’s earlier chapters frequently. The show has systematically removed her active parts, and ignored her emotional development and increasing awareness of world around her. That doesn’t mean she suddenly became a hardened cynic, either, but the show’s version basically hasn’t changed at all. She cries when something bad happens (but no need to talk about it; we need to make room for scenes that show Tyrion reacting to the same events in far greater detail), and is the punchline of jokes about how dumb she is.

    Like the whole Tyrell story, which in the books shows both how Sansa has changed and how she hasn’t (her interactions with the Tyrell girls show her increasing cynicism and her envy of how innocent the rest of them still are, her reaction to Willas showcases both her desperation to escape and her willingness to marry somebody with a physical defect, her ultimately being taken completely in by the Tyrells shows that for all her increasing jadedness she still has romantic hopes). And after she’s forced to marry Tyrion, the Tyrells drop her, hard, and she sees how wrong she was to trust them.

    In the show, tee hee, Sansa doesn’t realize Loras is gay, she acts like she’s forgotten the last two seasons’ worth of events, and at the end she hasn’t learned anything, nor is there any sense on the show that she’s supposed to have. Then she ends the season silently crying so that we can be sad for Tyrion that his forced child bride doesn’t love him.

  154. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: Hodor’s Bastard, I don’t think Sansa is aware of how she is being manipulated. She is still playing the roll of Littlefinger’s pawn in A Dance with Dragons.

    True….but in the show, I think they could step it up a bit. Although this thread is full of disagreements, I believe they could respect Sansa’s development a bit more and get her to really react, instead of tearing up dolls in private.

  155. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Again, all of that is internal in the books. How is she supposed to express that in the show? Also, Sansa had a crush on Loras in the books too. She had no clue he was gay. And before you say it wasn’t common knowledge in the books, Jaime sure did know he was gay, as well as Cersei. Why should show Sansa have any inclination that he is gay or even that such a thing exists?

  156. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Again, all of that is internal in the books. How is she supposed to express that in the show?

    Have her talk about it. They have no problem having her talk about other stuff. That seems to have been the whole point of making Shae her friend.

    Also, Sansa had a crush on Loras in the books too.

    Yeah, which was a background detail by this point, not the focus of her story for several episodes, and multiple scenes where what is supposed to be her very dramatic story is turned into comedy about how dumb she is for not recognizing how G-A-A-A-Y he is.

    It also undermines her story because you then get people thinking that Tyrion is the better option because he’s straight, and she’s just too dumb to see it (and such a hot, sexy guy, as we got a whole scene pointing out!).

  157. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    When they decided to stretch ASOS into two seasons it became clear that they would expand on the political machinations of wedding Sansa. The show, which had already established Sansa’s crush on Loras, which was in the books too, decided to cut out Willas and go with a character the audience was familiar with. There was no reason for Sansa to believe that Loras is gay.

  158. Roekest
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    patchface,

    I imagine she jumps down to Dontos’ boat when it’s time to escape with Littlefinger. I think in the book their journey to the boat took them on a path that was on a cliffside.

  159. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Arguably, Loras is the better option, too. Even if he is gay. Better a husband who isn’t really into you, but is otherwise nice, with a family who doesn’t see you as a punching bag, than someone who comes with Tywin and Joffrey attached.

    I may put too much confidence in reasonable audience reactions, but I felt the thousand times the show emphasized that Sansa is fourteen(!) would be enough to make it clear to anyone that she and Tyrion weren’t supposed to be a good match. Surely nobody in my environment thought she should be happy to be with him, nor did they get the feeling the show was pushing this idea.

  160. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    When they decided to stretch ASOS into two seasons it became clear that they would expand on the political machinations of wedding Sansa. The show, which had already established Sansa’s crush on Loras, which was in the books too, decided to cut out Willas and go with a character the audience was familiar with.There was no reason for Sansa to believe that Loras is gay.

    Except that they have everybody else know that he is gay, and so repeatedly emphasizing that she doesn’t undermines the character in a way that the original story did not, which is reinforced by all the other dumb jokes they add at her expense.

    There is a certain logic to using Loras on the show, but it could easily have been done in a way that didn’t demean either character (Loras was pretty much reduced to a camp stereotype this year). They could even have had Shae tell her that he’s gay, and have a crushed Sansa decide she’d still rather marry him and escape King’s Landing, to show how desperately she wants to leave.

    You could have gotten some good character stuff for both of them out of that. Instead, cheap gay jokes for Loras and dumb jokes for Sansa.

    The Blue Grace:
    I may put too much confidence in reasonable audience reactions, but I felt the thousand times the show emphasized that Sansa is fourteen(!) would be enough to make it clear to anyone that she and Tyrion weren’t supposed to be a good match.

    You’d be wrong there, judging from much of the audience reaction. Many, many people think Sansa lucked out in being forced to marry Tyrion, and is a bitch for not recognizing it (which also happened in the books, but the show has gone out of its way to remove anything that could possibly give her reason to object to marrying him, apart from her age, which she’ll grow out of). When you depict Tyrion as the Dwarf Ned Stark and have Margaery lecture Sansa abut how to make the best of her situation and how hot and sexy Tyrion is, that’s going to happen.

  161. We do not Hodor
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Here is an idea. Rather than having Sansa ask Shae whether or not her “family will be invited to the wedding”, why didn’t they have Shae explain to her that Loras is gay. They could have then had Sansa say that it really didn’t matter to her because atleast it would have gotten her out of King’s Landing and away from the Lannisters (much like her reasoning reagrding Willas in the book and the fact that he was crippled)

  162. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    We do not Hodor:
    Here is an idea.Rather than having Sansa ask Shae whether or not her “family will be invited to the wedding”, why didn’t they have Shae explain to her that Loras is gay.They could have then had Sansa say that it really didn’t matter to her because atleast it would have gotten her out of King’s Landing and away from the Lannisters (much like her reasoning reagrding Willas in the book and the fact that he was crippled)

    There is the problem though that Shae probably wants to preserve Sansa’s innocence as long as possible. Even her warnings against Littlefinger were a bit vague – instead of telling her exactly what adult men might want from girls like Sansa, she only told her to come to her if he touched her or did anything she didn’t like. (Which would have been unrealistic, I think, since Shae probably tries to protect the child she was never allowed to be in Sansa.)

  163. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: There is the problem though that Shae probably wants to preserve Sansa’s innocence as long as possible.

    So write her differently to suit the story. Problem solved.

  164. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.:

    You’d be wrong there, judging from much of the audience reaction.Many, many people think Sansa lucked out in being forced to marry Tyrion, and is a bitch for not recognizing it (which also happened in the books, but the show has gone out of its way to remove anything that could possibly give her reason to object to marrying him, apart from her age, which she’ll grow out of).When you depict Tyrion as the Dwarf Ned Stark and have Margaery lecture Sansa abut how to make the best of her situation and how hot and sexy Tyrion is, that’s going to happen.

    I was being a little facetious, too.

    Again, like I said before, I don’t think the show presents it this way, and people would see Sansa like a bitch for pretty much anything. The book readers did and do, as well, and from your estimation, they would have to have an easier time to understand her.

    Much like the books, the show requires a bit more audience participation than a lot of people are willing to give I think. For instance, Margaery tries to sell the pragmatic route to Sansa, but is she really presented as a good advisor? Not only does she encourage Joffrey’s debased urges, she also takes the completely wrong way of talking up Tyrion to Sansa, by praising his sexual prowess. She’s both overestimating her ability to control Joffrey and misunderstanding Sansa’s needs and wishes – is she really meant to be seen as wiser here? I think it’s ambivalent.

    The point is, I think even if the show did it differently, I don’t think it would change this kind of audience reaction, unless Sansa suddenly jumps on a horse, grabs Gregor’s sword and beheads Joffrey in front of the whole court.

  165. Jordan
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    A couple of thoughts (I do agree Sansa did seem to be made more naive during the season):

    Sansa asking about her family being allowed to come is not a bad question, because as other conversations with Margaery get at, Sansa basically wants to know how Margaery being in power changes her own status (note similarly that when Margaery talks about Sansa visiting Highgarten, she’s saying that Sansa will no longer be a glorified prisoner).

    I can’t recall if the Tyrells in the books ever referenced the status of the other Starks, but it seems to me that if they were willing to betroth Sansa to one of the family, that would carry the implication that the Starks would no longer be considered traitors- and Sansa is wise to ask about that when the engagement to Loras falls through.

    Also, rightly or wrongly, Tyrion is considerably nicer than in the books, and better looking to boot. So, while they might not have gone about it the best way, I think things like Margaery talking about Tyrion’s good qualities and Sansa getting along well with him initially are to show that to the extent Sansa opposed the marriage/ends up not liking him- its not because of a prejudice against his appearance; its because he’s a Lannister and is complicit in his family’s crimes.

    Now unfortunately, some viewers (like some readers, who have less excuse) did come away thinking Sansa was being an ungrateful bitch to Tyrion- but IMO, those people are completely missing the point.

  166. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: Sean C., When they decided to stretch ASOS into two seasons it became clear that they would expand on the political machinations of wedding Sansa. The show, which had already established Sansa’s crush on Loras, which was in the books too, decided to cut out Willas and go with a character the audience was familiar with. There was no reason for Sansa to believe that Loras is gay.

    Heck, my 12-year old step-daughter knew that a family friend was gay before the adults figured it out. She also watched that Loras-Sansa episode and questioned me…”Sansa realizes that Margaery’s brother is gay, right?” Even though I actually consider my step-daughter a well-balanced genious, Sansa’s onscreen-written ignorance is rather….pathetic….but I still find her character incredibly interesting given all its pathos. ;-)

  167. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    your stepdaughter wasn’t born in a medieval fantasy setting, though. I fervently hope at least!

    (Really, it’s not odd or dumb Sansa doesn’t know this. It’s meant to convey different times.)

  168. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Hodor’s Bastard, your stepdaughter wasn’t born in a medieval fantasy setting, though. I fervently hope at least!(Really, it’s not odd or dumb Sansa doesn’t know this. It’s meant to convey different times.)

    She only gets to watch episodes of GoT that I preview…(although they are rather sneaky in what they say and do when parents are away…plus she’s smarter than me) but she gets it. She still prefers the “Series of Unfortunate Events” books…which in some ways are even more sadistic than GoT!!

  169. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: She only gets to watch episodes of GoT that I preview…(although they are rather sneaky in what they say and do when parents are away…plus she’s smarter than me) but she gets it. She still prefers the “Series of Unfortunate Events” books…which in some ways are even more sadistic than GoT!!

    That is true – but probably a sadism youngsters can deal with easier. (Though I agree, they are tough kids nowadays – at that age I was still a bookworm in love with horses and spaceships… which hasn’t changed that much, except for the horses.)

  170. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Jordan:
    I can’t recall if the Tyrells in the books ever referenced the status of the other Starks, but it seems to me that if they were willing to betroth Sansa to one of the family, that would carry the implication that the Starks would no longer be considered traitors

    No, that’s not the case at all. Sansa being married to the Tyrells wouldn’t mean anything for the rest of her family, nor did she think it would; anymore than her marrying Tyrion means anything for the Starks vis a vis the Lannisters. She’s professing to be loyal to Joffrey, hence, why she’s still alive and her family is in rebellion.

    The Blue Grace:
    (Really, it’s not odd or dumb Sansa doesn’t know this. It’s meant to convey different times.)

    Loras being gay is depicted in the series as something that everyone knows (even random field soldiers who’ve never met him), except Sansa (and Brienne, briefly. So having a running gag about how Sansa is the only person in King’s Landing who doesn’t know this makes her look dumb.

    You can conjecture about whether she would even know what homosexuality is, but the show has never brought up any of that. All you have is a joke about how, haha, he’s gay and Sansa’s too stupid to figure it out. There’s nothing “period appropriate” about the scene where Loras goes on and on like one of Carrie’s gay BFFs in “Sex and the City” about fancy clothes, and Sansa blithely doesn’t pick up on any of these supposed signals. That’s pure 21st century laugh material.

    I expect that, if you asked the writers, they would insist this is them trying to portray naivety, but they left that line behind a long time ago. Moreover, this the third fucking season of the show; Sansa’s supposed to be developing as a character, not constantly serving as the punchline of the same damn joke, and this is supposed to be a serious story about her desperation to escape King’s Landing, not a comic setpiece about how she doesn’t recognize that Loras is gay, which is what the engagement storyline amounted to.

  171. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Jordan: Also, rightly or wrongly, Tyrion is considerably nicer than in the books, and better looking to boot. So, while they might not have gone about it the best way, I think things like Margaery talking about Tyrion’s good qualities and Sansa getting along well with him initially are to show that to the extent Sansa opposed the marriage/ends up not liking him- its not because of a prejudice against his appearance; its because he’s a Lannister and is complicit in his family’s crimes.

    “Tyrion is considerably nicer than in the books” – talk about an understatement. It’s interesting that GRRM has stated that he identifies the most with Tyrion and enjoys writing those chapters the most. Tyrion’s obvious intellect is somewhat misplaced in this world. However, I was always hoping that in some weird way, given their atrocious situation, Sansa and Tyrion’s ridiculous bond would allow her to play the game better, more proactively but then Dontos/LF and the PW happened and she was wisked away to another torture… It seems that even GRRM couldn’t stand that uplifting possibility that Sansa could play the KL game. It was almost as if he laughed at their situation and decided….fuck that..get her the hell out of there…and start again. Instead of escaping with the Hound earlier…she will escape via another kind of monster.

    Regarding the show…I wondered why Shae and Sansa were commiserating so obviously in S3? Was it more than to simply share Sansa’a thoughts? WIll Shae help LF get Sansa away from Tyrion…or try to prevent LF/Dontos from taking her, given Ros’s warning? Either way, she’ll get the pearl…I mean blue… necklace treatment, probably because of her meddling…(I don’t quite understand the Tywin factor – unless it was some sort of Freudian Tysha-Sansa-Shae bullshit). It would be interesting if Margaery/QoT also had something to do with setting Shae up to help deliver Sansa to LF.

    We shall see. Both Tyrion’s and Sansa’s state of mind at the end of S4 are crucial for the next phase. Will we ever discover “wherever whores go”?

  172. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace,

    You’ve made good points , here.

  173. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: We shall see. Both Tyrion’s and Sansa’s state of mind at the end of S4 are crucial for the next phase. Will we ever discover “wherever whores go”?

      

    Agreed. Jordan and Blue Grace made keen observation too, with respects to
    Sansa, et.al, and GoT likely intent.

    As for the question ” where do whore’s go ? ” I found that amusing , if primarily
    rhetorical, but profoundly morose as well. I’m always put in a sad state, whenever
    Tyrion puts that to phrase.

  174. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed: Agreed. Jordan and Blue Grace made keen observation too, with respects toSansa, et.al, and GoT likely intent.As for the question ” where do whore’s go ? ” I found that amusing , if primarilyrhetorical, but profoundly morose as well. I’m always put in a sad state, wheneverTyrion puts that to phrase.

    Me too. It is an extremely melancholic and oft-repeated reference in ADwD, representing Tyrion’s depressed, almost depraved, state of mind after the insane KL events. If there is a single thing that I am looking forward to in S4, is how Dinklage portray’s Tyrion’s countenance and state of mind in the final scenes of S4 after Tywin makes his final condescending statement.

  175. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace:
    Hodor’s Bastard,

    your stepdaughter wasn’t born in a medieval fantasy setting, though. I fervently hope at least!

    (Really, it’s not odd or dumb Sansa doesn’t know this. It’s meant to convey different times.)

    Hmmmm………. I beg to differ, with respects to obvious sexual orientation, and
    call to mind lady Olenna’s previous statements, to illuminate my objection. When
    referring to her grandson , and many squires. She referred to the usual dallying
    or experimenting with same genders as much experiment or to fulfill sexual need,
    than commitment to a particular lifestyle. Both genders can be quite elusive in
    declaring preferences, if they enjoy both. It’s a different story when someone
    is repressed and wish to comply with societal rules or duty, as with Loras. The
    union may result as unhappy or ill conceived. Still, some people just display
    certain ” unfeminine ” or ” unmasculine ” qualities, and still be heterosexual.

    I may be overreaching a bit, but the boundaries aren’t as clear as some make them
    out to be. By some peoples set of parameters, I’ve been thought of as male. *>*
    I’m really a cross between a faery and a replicant ( :

  176. sunspear
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Sansa canonically asks the Tyrells if she’ll marry Loras. The writers didn’t make her that stupid, she IS that stupid. She gets a little better later on, but at this point, the writers haven’t made her any more or less intelligent than she was in the books.

    And if you want character development, how about in episode 10, when she actually starts to judge Tyrion based on his personality instead of his looks or his family. And as far as taking away her reaction to her families deaths in the books, need I remind you that reaction happened entirely offscreen?

  177. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    WildSeed:
    The Blue Grace,

    You’ve made good points , here.

    Thank you!

    WildSeed: Hmmmm………. I beg to differ, with respects to obvious sexual orientation, and
    call to mind lady Olenna’s previous statements, to illuminate my objection. When
    referring to her grandson , and many squires. She referred to the usual dallying
    or experimenting with same genders as much experiment or to fulfill sexual need,
    than commitment to a particular lifestyle. Both genders can be quite elusive in
    declaring preferences, if they enjoy both. It’s a different story when someone
    is repressed and wish to comply with societal rules or duty, as with Loras. The
    union may result as unhappy or ill conceived. Still, some people just display
    certain ” unfeminine ” or” unmasculine ” qualities, and still be heterosexual.

    I may be overreaching a bit, but the boundaries aren’t as clear as some make them
    out to be. By some peoples set of parameters, I’ve been thought of as male. *>*
    I’m really a cross between a faery and a replicant( :

    I believe you misunderstood me. What I mean is this: ASoIaF/GoT takes place in a medieval fantasy setting. At that time, a sheltered young noble woman like Sansa, who grew up with parents like Ned and Catelyn, is unlikely to have known about something like homosexuality.

    Lady Olenna is a very experienced and worldly old lady. I bet she knows many things Sansa wouldn’t even dream of. Also, Highgarden seems to be quite cultured and much more sophisticated than the North when it comes to things like love and sexuality, so it makes sense that both she and Margaery feel differently about it (not to mention that they have at least one family member who is gay).

    Hodor’s Bastard‘s stepdaughter is a girl from the 21st century. It’s not odd for her to know certain stereotypical behaviour patterns her society would associate with being gay. (Personally, I know enough men who are straight and love clothes, so yes, the show draws an unnecessary shortcut here.)

    I didn’t mean to imply anything about “manly” or “womanly” qualities. I really would marry Loras over Tyrion, but not least because we share certain sexual preferences. Or don’t share them, depending how you look at it.

    I see myself more as an alien-space robot mix. Not very original, I know.

  178. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Sansa canonically asks the Tyrells if she’ll marry Loras. The writers didn’t make her that stupid, she IS that stupid. She gets a little better later on, but at this point, the writers haven’t made her any more or less intelligent than she was in the books.

    As I already pointed out, Sansa not knowing that Loras is gay isn’t a divergence from the books. What is a divergence is both the emphasis placed on it (her momentary confusion about Loras’ availability, which happens when she’s under considerable stress), and the fact that his homosexuality has been turned into such a transparent joke that she is literally the only person who doesn’t know about it (whereas, in the books, his status is quite oblique, and many readers never notice it).

    And yes, she is much dumber. Nothing Book!Sansa did in this period is remotely as dumb as thinking her family will be coming to her wedding, and was far more perceptive and aware of her surroundings.

    And if you want character development, how about in episode 10, when she actually starts to judge Tyrion based on his personality instead of his looks or his family.

    Uh, no, that’s not character development (unless you think Stockholm Syndrome is development). Tyrion is the Lannister minister of finance, and formerly the acting prime minister; in that capacity, he has been and is making war on her family (and personally fought against said family at the Green Fork, where, in the books, he killed several of their men and would have tried to kill her brother had he actually been there). Judging him on his “family”, i.e., his actions, is quite appropriate. The fact that he’s been somewhat nicer about keeping her a hostage than everyone else doesn’t mean he’s not her enemy.

    And as far as taking away her reaction to her families deaths in the books, need I remind you that reaction happened entirely offscreen.

    No, we got a description of her being told. It was powerfully sketched in only a few lines, and would have been perfect for TV. Moreover, the writers don’t hew to the POV format of the books (like when the Tyrion/Sansa wedding, which was a Sansa POV in the book, was rewritten to be majority-Tyrion in the show), so we would have seen Sansa’s reaction if they thought it was important, but they don’t. They had their eyes on what *really* matters: two scenes about how Tyrion’s daddy and his forced child bride don’t love him, and how sad the death of Sansa’s family makes him.

  179. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: Thank you!Hodor’s Bastard‘s stepdaughter is a girl from the 21st century. It’s not odd for her to know certain stereotypical behaviour patterns her society would associate with being gay. (Personally, I know enough men who are straight and love clothes, so yes, the show draws an unnecessary shortcut here.)

    Yikes…now I’m gonna have to explain to my significant other how I made her underage daughter the subject of an ideological gaydar debate. Damn! It was only an innocent anecdote…I withdraw it!

    By the way, I am a straight man who loves shopping for and wearing nifty clothes (some would dare use the 90s-term, metrosexual), except when a certain adult woman shows up…then I don’t like to wear clothes at all.

  180. Leo
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    That first shot makes me think: http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/359/c/a/meereen_by_lvlorf3us-d5p65sx.png

    ^We need this shot in the show.

  181. sunspear
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    (whereas, in the books, his status is quite oblique, and many readers never notice it).

    Oblique to readers who aren’t paying attention and oblique to characters in the story are two different things. Tons of different characters made references to Renly and Loras being gay. It wasn’t unknown in the books at all.

    Nothing Book!Sansa did in this period is remotely as dumb as thinking her family will be coming to her wedding, and was far more perceptive and aware of her surroundings.

    Hmm, how about the time she ratted out her dad about them leaving King’s landing, something they eliminated from the tv show. Sansa has plenty of stupid deeds to her name, the writers didn’t need to make them up.

    he has been and is making war on her family

    Yeah, BS. Tyrion fought in one battle after Sansa’s mother kidnapped him for a crime he didn’t committ and nearly got him killed. After that, he made every effort to make peace with Robb, not prolong the war.

    No, we got a description of her being told. It was powerfully sketched in only a few lines, and would have been perfect for TV.

    Wow, your complaining about a few unmemorable lines told in a flashback? That icy stare she gave Tyrion after starting to get along with him was all the more focus she needed to have.

  182. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Hmm, how about the time she ratted out her dad about them leaving King’s landing

    Without getting into a debate about that, that happened in the first book. This is the third book. Sansa has had considerable character development.

    Yeah, BS. Tyrion fought in one battle after Sansa’s mother kidnapped him for a crime he didn’t committ and nearly got him killed. After that, he made every effort to make peace with Robb, not prolong the war.

    No, it’s the truth, however much Tyrion’s fans would rather not hear it. Until Tyrion joins the Stark cause, or ceases to work for the Iron Throne in its war on House Stark, he is an enemy of House Stark. Whether he particularly dislikes House Stark himself is irrelevant.

    Wow, your complaining about a few unmemorable lines told in a flashback? That icy stare she gave Tyrion after starting to get along with him was all the more focus she needed to have.

    Um, first of all, they weren’t “unmemorable”. It’s a powerful little moment in the books, and well-remembered by fans of the character. And it’s a far more powerful reaction than the show’s three seconds of her crying, in a scene that is entirely focused on Tyrion, not on her.

  183. sunspear
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Dude, just stop. If Sansa is on camera, the scene is about her. They aren’t making it about Tyrion for having him exist in the show.

  184. sunspear
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    And while we’re at it, can we please stop pretending that Sansa’s hatred of Tyrion isn’t based on looks in large part. When their in bed together, she specifically thinks of how ugly he is, not how mistreated her family.

  185. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    sunspear: Sean C., Hmm, how about the time she ratted out her dad about them leaving King’s landing, something they eliminated from the tv show. Sansa has plenty of stupid deeds to her name, the writers didn’t need to make them up.

    Whoa…I forgot about that key point in my earlier discussion. Even though I am hopeful for her character development in TWoW, I’m starting to realize that I detest certain aspects of Sansa’s character and her inability/unwillingness to question her own manipulation/naivite.

  186. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Dude, just stop. If Sansa is on camera, the scene is about her.

    Um, no, that’s not how visual media work. Sansa and Tyrion’s scenes are generally written and filmed to emphasize his POV, and place the audience in Tyrion’s shoes. Let’s take the version of Sansa’s reaction used in the show as an example:

    After a reasonably accurate condensed version of the Small Council scene, the show adds a completely made-up emotional confrontation between Tyrion and Tywin that is all about their tense relationship and how Tyrion feels alienated from his father, culminating in his being told that his father wanted to drown him at birth. Tywin leaves and the camera focuses on Tyrion by himself. After this, we follow Tyrion as he returns to his apartments, and we see Sansa by the window, the camera mimicking Tyrion’s line of sight. We see Sansa crying, again, mimicking Tyrion’s POV. We then see Tyrion look upset, and leave. The camera follows him out. End scene.

    The camera throughout is centered on Tyrion, and the scene itself is merely an epilogue to the earlier Tyrion/Tywin scene. Both in writing terms and in how the scene is shot, Tyrion’s reactions and feelings are the focus of the scene. That’s Directing 101. Sansa exists only from Tyrion’s POV, and her role in the scene is to be one more thing to make Tyrion sad, as we further see in the Tyrion followup scene which is again all about Tyrion’s feelings about the situation, while Sansa gets nothing.

    A scene can be shot from a character’s POV, or from a neutral/switching POV. That’s a textbook case of the former.

  187. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    sunspear: And while we’re at it, can we please stop pretending that Sansa’s hatred of Tyrion isn’t based on looks in large part. When they’re in bed together, she specifically thinks of how ugly he is, not how mistreated her family.

    Yeah…GRRM is pretty specific regarding T’s manthing as seen by Sansa…”ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head…”…damn, if that sight didn’t damage her for life…

  188. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    The Blue Grace: I believe you misunderstood me. What I mean is this: ASoIaF/GoT takes place in a medieval fantasy setting. At that time, a sheltered young noble woman like Sansa, who grew up with parents like Ned and Catelyn, is unlikely to have known about something like homosexuality.

    Lady Olenna is a very experienced and worldly old lady. I bet she knows many things Sansa wouldn’t even dream of. Also, Highgarden seems to be quite cultured and much more sophisticated than the North when it comes to things like love and sexuality, so it makes sense that both she and Margaery feel differently about it (not to mention that they have at least one family member who is gay).

    Ah, yes, it seems I did get off on the wrong footing ,there, my apologies .
    And I’m certain too that Olenna Redwynne could trade some words that
    likely to burn your ears, once listening. Whether that means she can be
    a crude as any urban dweller , or a woman who is just keenly observant
    about the nature of people in general. I would imagine, though, Ned,
    Cate and maester Luwin would recognise homosexuality if presented.
    Caitlyn might be disapproving, but not likely unenlightened .

    Sansa and her siblings were likely sheltered , in their isolated upbringing,
    but I’d wager her perspectives were also self imposed, to some degree.
    Her mother, Caityn Tully-Stark, was well versed in the political world and
    quickly recognised human traits. I fear her very own starch adherence to
    class and gender restrictions may have cloded her judgement or actions,
    when her own best interest were put to the test, as she grew up. That said,
    sometimes the most courageous thing to do is valuing life and survival,
    when forces or laws outnumber you. Arya and Sansa may be quite opposites,
    when their personalities are compared, but each shared particular, if
    different strengths, that may continue saving each of their lives, respectively.

  189. Sean C.
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    And while we’re at it, can we please stop pretending that Sansa’s hatred of Tyrion isn’t based on looks in large part. When their in bed together, she specifically thinks of how ugly he is, not how mistreated her family.

    Where did I “pretend” otherwise? She obviously finds him repulsive physically, as does pretty much everyone else in that world. But it’s hardly her only concern. She does not want to marry a Lannister, bear Lannister children, and be stuck in King’s Landing under the thumb of the Lannister family.

    Another area in where Sansa is held to a sexist double-standard in much of the fandom is here, actually, where she’s constantly accused of being shallow for disliking Tyrion’s looks, but any number of male characters, including (perhaps chiefly) Tyrion are not held to that standard. Tyrion has no interest in women who are not conventionally beautiful, and has a neverending stream of nasty jokes ready about Lollys Stokeworth.

  190. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: metrosexual)

    ( : I like that term, nearly forgot it. I’m going to let my relatives know this is my gender.

    My uncle regularly shops for clothes for my aunt, as I often shopped for my Ex.
    When you’re thoughtful enough to care, attention to details is all that matters.

    You’re not the only male on the planet that enjoys shopping, I don’t mean to confuse
    the obsessed shopaholic variety. My ex definitely had more clothes than I did.

  191. WildSeed
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    No argument there.

  192. AngryRosFan
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Although we could debate if Sansa actually realizes how naive she is or how much of a pawn that she plays in the royal game, I honestly believe that GRRM wrote her to be the complete opposite of Arya, living on the silky thread of “someday, someday” hope and needing others to mold her and tell her what to do. If she was truly savvy, she would have left during the Blackwater chaos with the Hound…he wanted to save her for a second time but that “knight in shining armor” story isn’t what ASoI&F is about. Sansa’s life is a different kind of torture, subject to a different level of evil than many others in Westeros.

    Amongst the royals and nobles for all her life, she assumes the privileged stance and says and does everything she is supposed to say and do.But she has no ambition other than “fitting in.”She knows nothing of the game of thrones, or if she does, she only contemplates it privately. Furthermore, she is truly damaged by the violence around her, what she has seen and heard about her family and has become sadly pathetic. In S4, we should finally see her gain some self-respect back, but she still will be told what to do and have no real initiative…told to just do this, meet this guy here, wear this, leave now…blah, blah, blah….she continues to be manipulated.

    Come on, Sansa…where’s your “Carpe Diem”?

    Hopefully, there will be the great “snow castle” scene with her in the Vale (with the “Sounds of Silence” playing in the background…jk). Truly, it is a spectacularly-written chapter, especially with the LF interaction and the passive Lysa observation…yet it ultimately serves as a sad, delusional metaphor of how her life is a “snow globe”…completely encapsulated by the whims of others.

    Maybe in S5/TWoW, Sansa will finally wake up…but I doubt it.

    Sansa’s story arc in the second half of ASOS and AFFC is probably my favorite in terms of growth, even if it seems she is timid compared to Arya and her brothers. In the books and on the show, Sansa’s is a different kind of strength than what Arya shows but it is strength because it’s helped her survive. “Fitting in” is how she survives surrounded by predators. If Arya had been in Sansa’s position, her head would probably be on a spike right now.

    And… it should be noted that when a planned escape was offered in the book, via Dontos and Littlefinger, she took it. Some people think Sansa made a mistake in not escaping with the Hound, but had done that, she would have been ruined. Even if Sandor didn’t get drunk one night and rape her, it would have been assumed that she was soiled. I think she’s made the best decisions she could in a terrible situation.

    Sansa has been a pawn in the hands of capricious, abusive powers that she cannot beat at their own game, so she has adapted to her role, however frustrating that may be to 21st century sensibilities. Ned is dead for not knowing how to play the game, so obviously back-stabbing and betrayal wasn’t something that the Stark kids were schooled in back at Winterfell and that sort of behavior is endemic in Kings Landing. Why would anyone think that Sansa should pick up on something that her own father didn’t?

    I note that in AFFC, at the Eyrie Sansa is able to see Littlefinger’s gamesmanship, and she picks up on the fact that Petyr’s staunchest enemy is in his pay ,which I found interesting. There, she has to play mother to a spoiled, difficult sick little boy who lords it over on everyone but who she understands has lost his parents and has no one else. She runs the household and gets down to business of vacating the Eyrie for the Winter and gets Robin down the mountain, although by somewhat controversial means. She’s quite capable albeit in a more quiet and traditional role than her sister. It’s Sansa’s “meek” act that sets her up to be underestimated while she observes what’s going on around her. Being underestimated is partly how Petyr succeeded as well.

    I do share some of the frustration about the way TVSansa is being written (saying shift instead of shit, really?); but not about her lack of gaydar with respect to Loras. I don’t get the sense that any of the Stark kids were schooled in a great many things that are “common knowledge’ in Kings Landing, and Sansa has had to keep a low profile to stay out of Joffrey’s sights. She’s basically a disgraced daughter of a traitor and not one that the nobles at court want to cultivate as a friend after being dumped by Joffrey. Her only friend is her chambermaid who has told Sansa not to trust her. I suppose Shae could have filled Sansa in on what it means to be married to a gay man, but apparently not. Why would she spoil Sansa’s dream of something “normal” and safe after everything she’d been through? And even if Sansa had been told that Loras is gay, I don’t think she would have cared, because getting the Hell out of Kings Landing was the most important thing.

    Only after she is set aside by Joffrey can she even dream about escaping – and even then she finds out it’s not really true because she’s forced to wed to a Lannister and continues to be trapped in Kings Landing and surrounded by her family’s enemies. At least she knows not to assume other peoples’ honor. If Ned had done that he would still have his head, Robert might still be on the throne – or perhaps Stannis, and Cersei’s head would be on a spike. So, Sansa has actually learned more about how to survive in that environment than her father ever did.

    All that being said, I hope Sansa’s story in season 4 shows how capable she really is.

  193. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 19, 2013 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    AngryRosFan: Sansa’s story arc in the second half of ASOS and AFFC is probably my favorite in terms of growth, even if it seems she is timid compared to Arya and her brothers. In the books and on the show, Sansa’s is a different kind of strength than what Arya shows but it is strength because it’s helped her survive.
    …….
    Some people think Sansa made a mistake in not escaping with the Hound, but had done that, she would have been ruined. Even if Sandor didn’t get drunk one night and rape her, it would have been assumed that she was soiled. I think she’s made the best decisions she could in a terrible situation.
    …….
    All that being said, I hope Sansa’s story in season 4 shows how capable she really is.

    I appreciate that. Honestly, you and especially Blue Grace have greatly enhanced Sansa’s character for me during the past 24 hrs. Even the Sean C/sunspear tug-of-war is fun to witness.

    However, I must take issue with the Hound assumption. Does that make Arya a “soiled girl”? Heck no…the Hound had another side to him….he was no pussy but he wasn’t a complete asshole either….like his brother and many of the kingsguard. Sansa, like Arya, would have been very valuable to him….but he actually gave her a choice (!!!) to join him in his escape during Blackwater. She chose according to her character…that KL was naively better than escape (at the time).

    I have faith that GRRM will develop Sansa appropriately (and she is s-l-o-w-l-y appearing to mature at the Vale) but she is one drunk Corbray away from being the next victim of the Burned Men, imho.

    Thank you though, you and the BG, for your astute analysis. I enjoyed it.

  194. WildSeed
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    WildSeed: my gender.

    Um, I meant personal preference. I’ll never stop being female, girl power !$%&*@!

  195. WildSeed
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    WildSeed: starch

    staunch , dammit ! that spell check always interfere when I write @#+$*%^*&!

  196. The Blue Grace
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Yikes…now I’m gonna have to explain to my significant other how I made her underage daughter the subject of an ideological gaydar debate. Damn! It was only an innocent anecdote…I withdraw it!

    By the way, I am a straight man who loves shopping for and wearing nifty clothes (some would dare use the 90s-term, metrosexual), except when a certain adult woman shows up…then I don’t like to wear clothes at all.

    We won’t tell, promised!

    WildSeed: Ah, yes, it seems I did get off on the wrong footing ,there, my apologies .

    No problem at all.

    As for the Starks, I’m pretty sure Catelyn is aware, and Ned is certainly aware in general, but pretty blind at least where Renly is concerned (when he finds Gendry, he thinks he must be Robert’s son, because Stannis is too proud to have fathered a bastard and Renly too young for one of that age…).

    AngryRosFan:

    All that being said, I hope Sansa’s story in season 4 shows how capable she really is.

    Agreed, and, good post.

    Hodor’s Bastard: I appreciate that. Honestly, you and especially Blue Grace have greatly enhanced Sansa’s character for me during the past 24 hrs.

    Thank you though, you and the BG, for your astute analysis. I enjoyed it.

    Thanks. Like I said, it really is interesting to see the different perspectives on the characters, even if they are almost opposites.

    As for Sandor, I just imagine him very scary, especially for a child. And that scene in her bedroom really is freaky. I wouldn’t have let him take me across the yard, nevermind out of the city, so I get her. But, oh well. It happened.

  197. Shadowcat85
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Luka Nieto,

    That would actually be a photo double. A stand-in is for lighting and set-up purposes. And many times both will be on set for a lead actor with the photo double being higher in rank than the stand-in.

  198. sunspear
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    AngryRosFan,

    If Arya had been in Sansa’s position, her head would probably be on a spike right now.

    I rather doubt it. People like to pretend Arya didn’t adapt to living in Harrenhal with her enemies, or that the biggest reason Sansa survived because she was too valuable a hostage for the Lannisters to kill.

  199. sunspear
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    The Small council scene you describe in the show is exactly how it went down in the books: All from Tyrion’s POV, and then several chapters later, Sansa gets less than a page of reaction shot. Don’t blame the writers for not going out of their way to make Sansa look stronger than she actually is.

  200. Turncloak
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    sunspear: Sean C.,

    The Small council scene you describe in the show is exactly how it went down in the books: All from Tyrion’s POV, and then several chapters later, Sansa gets less than a page of reaction shot. Don’t blame the writers for not going out of their way to make Sansa look stronger than she actually is.

    Well said

  201. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Leo: That first shot makes me think: http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/359/c/a/meereen_by_lvlorf3us-d5p65sx.png^We need this shot in the show.

    Awesome illustration. Thx for sharing. ASoI&F artwork is totally cool (especially on the deviantart website).
    By the way, is that Quaithe approaching Dany from behind? Now you see her, now you don’t…

  202. Sean C.
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    The Small council scene you describe in the show is exactly how it went down in the books: All from Tyrion’s POV, and then several chapters later, Sansa gets less than a page of reaction shot. Don’t blame the writers for not going out of their way to make Sansa look stronger than she actually is.

    “Less than a page” is not the relevant detail. The book gives us Sansa’s reaction to being told, in a way that is far more about her than the show’s version.

    As well, the book didn’t preface Sansa’s three-second reaction with a scene of her acting like a ten-year-old that once again serves to make her the punchline of a joke about how dumb she is.

    The show also invented a second Tyrion scene that has no correlation in the books, so, as I already stated, “it was in the books” is not an excuse in any event. If they felt Sansa’s reaction was important, that it mattered, we would have seen it. They don’t. The massacre of Sansa’s family is only important insofar as it relates to Tyrion, as written in the show.

  203. Leo
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Woops, I only linked the picture. I liked the description the artist gave, that it was drawn to illustrate how alone Daenerys truly is in Meereen. She can be their queen. But no matter how hard she tries to rule, the city will never really be hers. She doesn’t belong there.

    I think they’ll make Meereen pretty interesting in the show, given what we’ve seen of Essos so far. The only problem I have with her spending more than one season ruling there is the overall pacing of the show. It’d be weird to see her pop up in Westeros for just the last season.

  204. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    The show should definately look into cutting Tyrion/Peter Dinklage’s screentime in favor of more Sansa/Sophie Turner. Everyone knows that Sansa is the more popular character and Turner is the more heralded actor. D&D are idiots who clearly don’t understand the characters GRRM created. Such a travesty.

    I’m bored.

  205. Sean C.
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The show should definately look into cutting Tyrion/Peter Dinklage’s screentime in favor of more Sansa/Sophie Turner. Everyone knows that Sansa is the more popular character and Turner is the more heralded actor.D&D are idiots who clearly don’t understand the characters GRRM created. Such a travesty.

    Firstly, competent storytellers in adapting a story would assign screentime with regard to actual importance to the story.

    Secondly, at no point have I been complaining about Sansa’s relative screentime, you’ll notice. In the minute tallies, she does okay. I’ve been criticizing how the screentime she does get is used. She had two minutes in “Mhysa”, which would have been plenty of time to handle her reaction properly, had the writers wanted to do so. Instead, they wrote a dumb comedy sketch that undermines her character.

    Her scene with Loras about the wedding could have been far better in the same space of time. Cutting that atrociously insulting Sansa/Margaery scene from “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” would have given them three minutes that could have been used for something that was actually appropriate to the situation.

  206. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Great Sansa debate! I love her character, so it was very enjoyable to read. :) Particular kudos to Sean C. for the tenacious defence.

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The show should definately look into cutting Tyrion/Peter Dinklage’s screentime in favor of more Sansa/Sophie Turner. Everyone knows that Sansa is the more popular character and Turner is the more heralded actor.D&D are idiots who clearly don’t understand the characters GRRM created. Such a travesty.

    Oh come on. Tyrion is great, but several characters have suffered from the mass of material given to him compared to others. This isn’t just the Peter Dinklage show, amazing as he is.

  207. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    I think the worldwise TP is “egging” you on, SC…
    ;-)

  208. sunspear
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    “Less than a page” is not the relevant detail.

    Of course it is. It was barely in the book, so it was barely on the show. Quit pretending to be the final judge on what is important to the plot and what isn’t, because you obviously aren’t any good at it.

  209. Sean C.
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    sunspear:
    Of course it is. It was barely in the book, so it was barely on the show. Quit pretending to be the final judge on what is important to the plot and what isn’t, because you obviously aren’t any good at it.

    Charming.

    Sansa’s reaction was handled effectively, and in a manner that afforded her some dignity, in the book. It was not on the show. Moreover, Sansa didn’t clown around with Tyrion in the book, so by your logic, why was that in the show at all, if page space in the book dictates absolutely what’s on the show?

  210. arden
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Sean C.,

    Get a grip man

  211. Sean C.
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    arden:
    Get a grip man

    Uh, last I checked, I was responding calmly, and other posts were relying on insults and sarcastic exaggerations. What ‘grip’ is required?

  212. dogs
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    The problem as I see it of the show’s portrayal of Sansa’s reaction to the Red Wedding is that it had necessarily become redundant to actually show her being told the news because her immediate reaction was exactly what you would expect it to be: shock, despair, sorrow. The same with being told of her marriage to Tyrion; they didn’t show it because her immediate reaction was exactly what you’d expect it to be: shock, despair, sorrow. The trend in season 3 was that Sansa in King’s Landing was being schemed over, as an autonomy-less object, between the other characters and interested parties of power. The side effect of this reduction of Sansa’s autonomy was that her character itself for the writers became more of an object as well, resulting in her not even being afforded the dignity of screentime showing her immediate reaction to news that both dramatically rocks her character and changes her situation and fate. This happened not once, but twice.
    And it happened as a necessity, because it would have been redundant to actually show, since the focus and drive of events at King’s Landing have not been about Sansa’s character development. Therefore, we got the reaction of the Red Wedding at King’s Landing, which focused on the Small Council, the political players – not Sansa. And therefore, we got the Tyrion-Sansa marriage dragged out over 3ish episodes, focused on Littlefinger, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei and the Tyrells – not Sansa.

    I mean, yes, I think it would have been great to have Sansa waiting outside for Tyrion after his meeting with the small council about the Red Wedding, and then Tyrion coming back to her in the courtyard and telling her, and her being quite dignified and contained about it until they get back to their apartments, and then breaking down in anger and in despair. I think that’s how it was in the books? She didn’t break down until she was alone?
    Actually, come to think of it, forget all I said about it being redundant to show up there. That could have been a really great scene, once they get back to their apartments she asks Tyrion to leave her alone politely and carefully, on the edge of breaking down, and then her face totally contorts into despair and agony when he is gone, maybe mirroring the changes of facial expressions of Catelyn in her final moments. Maybe knocking some furniture over. Dramatic music, etc.

  213. Andreas
    Posted September 20, 2013 at 5:52 pm | Permalink
  214. Mochni Ormag
    Posted September 23, 2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
  215. AnomalijA
    Posted September 24, 2013 at 2:07 pm | Permalink
  216. Felt Pelt
    Posted September 24, 2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    AnomalijA,

    What exactly happens during the bathing scene in the books? Why would there be a need for a underwater photography? (The racecar looking guy?)

    Also in the first image, it looks like the makeup woman is holding a prop hand? Maybe that’s just somebody’s hand that looks disembodied at this angle.

  217. Clob
    Posted September 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    It looks like the photographer is hiding in the tree to take pictures. ? Nice pasties. I guess they add the rest digitally. j/k :D

  218. AnomalijA
    Posted September 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Felt Pelt:
    AnomalijA,

    What exactly happens during the bathing scene in the books? Why would there be a need for a underwater photography? (The racecar looking guy?)

    Also in the first image, it looks like the makeup woman is holding a prop hand? Maybe that’s just somebody’s hand that looks disembodied at this angle.

    i don’t know what happens. i haven’t read the books :)
    the guy in the suit is member of croatian mountain rescue service, and i don’t know why they need him.
    and i think that the hand belongs to that guy in black t-shirt :)

  219. Graotron.com.pl
    Posted September 25, 2013 at 3:59 am | Permalink

    The region looks pretty amazing :)

  220. Ser Arthur Dan
    Posted September 25, 2013 at 11:13 am | Permalink

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