Game of Owns: Bryan Cogman Returns
By WiC Staff on in Interview, Podcast.

Episode 219 – Bryan Cogman Returns

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Game of Thrones co-producer and writer Bryan Cogman returns to the show in a catch-up session riddled with questions looking further into Season 4, and much more.


Discussion Topics

Greyjoy
Time to write
New scenes
The far North
Recasting
Ser Pounce’s debut
S4’s most difficult scenes
Escaping the Dreadfort
The Iron Bank
Jaime’s gifts to Brienne
Writing Daenerys
Returning to Twitter
The Trial
Moving forward
The Coin Theory


88 Comments

  1. The Ghost of Karl Tanner
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Fookin legend!!!!

  2. Phario
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    Can someone please give me a rundown of Mr. Cogman’s responses?

  3. SilverStormm
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Woot! Going to listen now!

  4. Amanda M
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    Aww, sounds like my question wasn’t asked. I genuinely wanted to know if he’s a Jaime and Brienne shipper! Haha

    Can’t wait to listen to the whole thing regardless :)

  5. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    Very enjoyable listening. Great answers from Cogman. Interesting hearing about the Tommen recasting and so much other stuff.

  6. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Phario:
    Can someone please give me a rundown of Mr. Cogman’s responses?

    This was really good. Some highlights that I remember:

    1) Crasters Keep scene in ep4 was the hardest to write. Also it was the extremely censored scene as noted by the cinematographer earlier.
    2) BC was the waiter at Dragonstone (cameo)
    3) Having Burn Gorman in the mix drove the Crasters storyline
    4) Ep6 was a Lannister family episode, with the trial scene emphasizing the looks between characters
    5) Dreadfort siege was intended to be slightly longer ironborn siege (edited shorter)…it was meant to take the wind out Yara’s sails…it was meant to be a botched mission. Ramsay let her go. She is going to have to live with “cutting and running.” Ramsay not meant to be shirtless but was intended not to have armor.
    6) BC is the “bath scene” writer
    7) GRRM encouraged GoT to show and explain the Iron Bank in more depth. BC believes the IBB knows that Stannis is in “partnership” with Mel (religious bond). BC also believes the IBB gave them a “provisional loan.” The final depiction of the Titan (after VFX) blew his mind.
    8) The original first scene of the ep6 was the dragon scene
    9) BC liked writing for Jaime the most and Dany the most difficult
    10) Hizdahr’s scene was an homage to Antigone. (That is really cool)
    11) Ian M (Selmy) is a huge fan of the books and his expressions tell a lot
    12) He confirmed that Boots and Lady Whiskers will not appear
    13) Syrio Forel is dead.
    14) Tywin-Jaime scene was shot in a different country than the trial
    15) Cersei prepped the witnesses, not Tywin.
    16) Shot as a 10-hr movie each season. The rest of the season is a roller-coaster!
    17) BC is having lunch with GRRM tomorrow. Wow.

  7. Hogwarts > Kingslanding
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Can’t comment on characters that haven’t been cut because they may still appear………interesting! Great episode!

  8. Bryan Cogman
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    All correct except I never said Tywin/Jaime scene was shot in a different country? It was all shot in the soundstages in Belfast…

  9. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    All apologies, ser! My shorthand failed me. I quite enjoyed your candor! Very fun audio. I was especially stunned by the Lady Whiskers revelation.

  10. Monica
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for sharing your insight, Bryan, what a gift for the fans!

    Only a comment from the female perspective – please don’t allow action to overrule the heart of the story. You mentioned Nymeria in season one, but we are still waiting for the river scene with Nymeria and the Brotherhood without Banners!

    You think you got a reaction with Ser Pounce…

  11. The Dragon Demands
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    “Lady Whiskers will never appear on the show”

    Boo this man!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoNWwhzh3M

  12. Hexonx
    Posted May 14, 2014 at 11:29 pm | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    It was the Jaime-Brienne/Pod outdoor farewell that was filmed elsewhere I believe you said, so you couldn’t be there when that scene was shot.

    The Jaime-Tywin comment was about Dance refusing to do another scene in the Hand’s office.

    Very entertaining and informative session. Thanks GOO & Cogs!

  13. House Mormont
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    WHAT DO YOU MEAN SYRIO IS DEAD

    This was great, thanks GOO and thanks Bryan

  14. Arthur
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman did get lucky and stumble upon one of the greatest Hollywood productions in film today…

    However,I think this show will serve more as a launching pad for his career as well as D&D’s and all the other major players involved in writing, production and acting.

    D&D’s along with Mr. Cogman’s names will forever be tied to this huge success called Game of Thrones.

    That is something you can put on your Hollywood resume that very few can. You’re a writer for Game of Thrones!

    Also, from what I have noticed from HBO, you’re part of that HBO family now. I doubt you’ll ever be out looking for a job. HBO, like any good company, likes to keep its talent, and make no mistake that’s what you are to them now.

    I just hope D&D and yourself will use your awesome talents to keep going after GoT and bring us another epic drama/fantasy series again.

    Thanks for always giving time to the fanbase!

  15. Sam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: 13) Syrio Forel is dead.

    WHAT! I really want to just say “no way” to that one… as in no way does he know for sure, not no way is it true…

  16. Strider
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Now I have to go back and see the waiter on Dragonstone!

    Also: sumo wrestler cat, ser Pounce?! Mr. Cogman wrote the script for a kitten LOL. This small behind the scene info is hilarious.

    Lysa/ Petyr revelation as a Double Indemnity final scene. Interesting how they write one thing and from outside you can get something different. Somehow I perceived it as a mix between excitement for being an accomplice to Jon’s poisoning with Belish as mastermind (like he says) and blackmail on her part to get married on the spot. LF also looked to be between “God, please shut up crazy woman!” and “Fuck, I’m trapped.” I’ve got a different take on Yara’s escaping Dreadfort too based on the visuals and the editing of the scene, without the explanation he provided.

    Davos & Shireen are some of the best scenes so far! I agree. And I did find it interesting that the arguments Seaworth used were beyond the numbers. After all the IBB officer’s talk of math and numbers adding up, it took more like long life planning (who’s in their prime and with the bloodright) and character analysis (Tywin/ Cersei/ Jamie vs Stannis’) that gained the “provisional loan”. One could say that the IBB backs both Houses now. Difficult for them to lose, ain’t it?!

    I would have thought the writing for Alfie’s Theon/Reek would be difficult, but he puts it up there as the one he likes the most together with NWC’s Jaime. Did I misunderstand that?

    Three drafts only for Tyrion’s speech. That’s not bad XD. Also giving credit to Martin is all good for the trial scene, but to cut those three days and a host of witnesses to the essentials, and keep it powerful and intense into half ep plus to add the Jaime/ Tywin one was extremely awesome! A job well done.

  17. Fire And Blood
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Fantastic interview. Loved it! Good get!

  18. A wolf named Dire
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 2:08 am | Permalink

    Great Interview! Mr Cogman I know it has been mentioned before but thank you so much for interacting with your fanbase hopefully you know how cool that is for us and how much we appreciate it!

  19. PodricksThirdLeg
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    Cog is fookin legend! Really enjoy watching his work on the show and able to listen on how hard everybody involve on the project work. Great stuff.

  20. Ser Dosser
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:

    17) BC is having lunch with GRRM tomorrow. Wow.

    Yes he has to break it to the old man that his AFFC filler is not good enough for season 5.

  21. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    Great stuff! There should be more episodes written by Bryan, and even more substantial interviews with him like this one.
    I liked the shout-out to Johan :)

  22. UncleB
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    Great interview! Congratulations!

  23. Greenjones
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    Good to know you’re doing two episodes next year as well. So with Dave Hill and GrrM that means that D and D are doing one less than they did this year, doesn’t it? You’ve done great work, this year in particular, so I’m glad to know you’ll be doing as much for s5.

    In other news, how about that Euron Greyjoy, huh?

  24. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    Awesome stuff, and good to see everything Bryan did this season got some kind of a look-in. Will there be another Ask the GoT Writer article when this season’s over?

    If there is, I think I’ll stick to my (dra)guns and try to get my mysteries question in again. I know the answer can only be vague or non-existent, but we’ll see maybe.

  25. Javi Marcos
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    In what minute is Syrio’s statement?

  26. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    Well at least the question of the dragon names did not come up.

  27. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    He cleared up the Yara thing, thankfully:

    1. The attack was meant to be longer but had to be cut down. I imagine there was originally meant to be a scene where the Ironborn barge into Ramsay’s room while he has sex with Myranda (which would explain why he’s fighting shirtlesss and why he’s covered in blood).

    2. The motivations of Yara and Ramsay were made clear. Yara understood she isn’t getting out of there with her brother, so there’s really no point in staying (though the fact that ramsay was unarmored means she could have easily launched her ax at him while he was taking his sweet time to open the hounds’ cell door, which is definitely a continuity error). Ramsay, on the other hand, wanted to send a message the Ironborn. I guess he knew he probably couldn’t win a standard fight against them since he was outnumbered, so he chose to just end with no casualties on either side.

    It could have been done better, but I still like parts of it a lot. The acting was great. Yara’s speech was great. Slow motion boat rowing was great. Climbing the walls was great. And Yara is a BAMF, no doubt. So I forgive the clumsy editing (and general weirdness) of that scene.

    Oh, and we do get one more tidbit: as an Ironborn, Yara escaping IS meant to look as a disgrace and she will have to deal with it in the future. I’m not sure if that refers to season 4 or something later on, but either way I’m glad to hear it (it boosts the chances of the Iron Islands storyline, for sure). I could imagine Euron using it against her in the Kingsmoot, for instance.

    Anyway, I think this change as a whole makes sense (even though they literally had to make Yara go around the world to do it and now it seems she’s going back home, so her mission essentially ended up as a five minute scene and a year’s worth of travel time). It develops Yara as a badass and as a sensitive sister. It gets the fans to back her before her role expands (even if they cut the Iron Islands, there’s still a lot of Asha in ADWD with Stannis).

    Let’s just hope Euron is in and that they cast Notmad Smikkelsen.

  28. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    Sam: Hodor’s Bastard: 13) Syrio Forel is dead.

    WHAT! I really want to just say “no way” to that one… as in no way does he know for sure, not no way is it true…

    Yeah unless George has told Bryan something new it is all kind of confusing.
    First GRRM did say he was.
    Then later GRRM said something like “well you never know”….
    (of course says that often).
    I thought is right to call into question Sandor’s remarks about Meryn Trant.
    We may never find out for sure.

  29. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 6:11 am | Permalink

    Boojam,

    We will never see Syrio again, even if he’s alive, so it doesn’t matter. Also, “the first sword of Braavos doesn’t run” kind of implies he’s dead since there’s just no way to win Meryn Trant. To quote the Hound, Meryn beat him because he was wearing full armor and had a big fucking sword. If he didn’t run, he didn’t win and he didn’t run…

  30. Chickenduck
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Well there you go. Both of the GoT podcasts I listen to had Bryan Cogman interviews this week!!

    And both offered quite different insights.

    There’s a lot to be said for guys like him who are willing to interact with the fans.

  31. Chickenduck
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    So… Maybe Syrio Forel is dead, but as some of us suspect he was just a “face” for the same Faceless Man who also had another “face” called Jaqen H’Gar… is his death just a technicality?

  32. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Chickenduck,

    Which was the second podcast?

  33. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    He won’t answer. He said so in the interview.
    We’ll just have to wait till the season’s over and see if there’s another Yara appearance. If not, the casting season will be crazy.

  34. Addam of Hull
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    A Cast of Kings is the other podcast that had Cogman on earlier this week.

  35. Shock Me
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    While I think it likely Syrio is dead (making his final moment with Arya epic). I prefer to think that Meryn Trent was simply too embarrassed at waking up unconscious and depantsed and will say nothing more of the incident.

  36. Chickenduck
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    A Cast of Kings. I need at least two GoT podcasts to get me through a week’s commuting.

  37. Isabelle
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    This is one I’ll definitely have to check out. Thanks WiC staff and Ser Cogman for doing this!

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Thanks for putting the recap together-great reference.

  38. Anonymous
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Jaquen is also “dead”.

  39. Rygar
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    I am confused on the “not enough time” issue with the Dreadfort scene. The episode was only 51 mins or so. Does this mean that they sum up all the episodes together in order to equal 10 hours? Did they cut some episodes short to allow for the extended finale?

  40. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    I think this episode was especially expensive (as in Dragon, Braavos, and tons of actors and extras in the trial and the Yara scene on top of it all). I doubt the episode was meant to be as expensive originally (as in, it’s not on the level of the last three), which meant they had to slice some scenes out. Fight scenes are expensive, so they did it with Yara’s escape and added the dog thing. Also it’s pretty clear that Ramsay and Myranda’s scene was shortened, but that I really don’t understand.

  41. B
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Yeah Ours, that casting talk was VERY telling when he spoke freely about Tommen recasting which also seems like behind the scenes production stuff whilst being tight lipped about the Daario and The Mountain re-casting, saying its behind the scene production stuff. I translate that to mean, DRAMA.

    Otherwise good stuff. This was the first time I’ve ever heard him speak. He seems like a nice guy and it was good to get a little insight into his process and his feelings about the show and the fanship.

  42. Jen@House Stark
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I own and love your book, Ser. And could you please do me the great honor of writing every episode from now on? I know it’s a lot to ask, but last weeks was my favorite of the season so far. Just love your work, squeee

  43. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    jentario: We will never see Syrio again, even if he’s alive, so it doesn’t matter. Also, “the first sword of Braavos doesn’t run” kind of implies he’s dead since there’s just no way to win Meryn Trant. To quote the Hound, Meryn beat him because he was wearing full armor and had a big fucking sword. If he didn’t run, he didn’t win and he didn’t run…

    Probably so.
    Well until George finishes Spring, if he ever does!….
    I will still have my doubts.
    After all he said in an interview that Jeyne Westerling , still alive in the books, will play a role in future books, if its is substantial we will two different stories.
    We know that Natalia Tena made such an impression on him Osha will seemingly have a bigger role , I guess, in Winds.
    (Gee miss Natalia this season, she is a real zinger when on screen.)
    I don’t know George does weird things when he really wants of OFF a character , take Ned for example, it is on-page.
    Others like Benjen Stark just vanish , no body found.
    Syrio Forel , ambiguous, no body seen , character not even talked about.
    Alas I thought Miltos Yeromelou , like Natalia, were …and are… juice that helped spice the show…

  44. Hath4
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    We know that the ramsay myranda scene was cut short, in the first trailer you can see her slap ramsay. Some are speculating that she was killed either by ramsay or ironborn and the death was cut do to the sept scandal and the crasters scandal.

  45. Strider
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    The Dreadfort attack as he said it was supposed to have a bigger fight scene in the courtyard I understood from the podcast. I would assume that would have been Yara’s retreat initially. For me would have made a better fit with what I know of her.

    Never mind it would have been Asha’s choice too, rather than cut her loses at Ramsey’s dog threat combined with Theon’s transformation to Reek.

    And they chose the abrupt method in editing because they wanted to convey she just gives up. That’s was the gist of it to my ears. Then again everyone hears what they want to hear! LOL It resembles a lot with Martin’s abrupt cut in ADwD when she decides Deepwood Motte is lost and retreats to the boats. But that was against agaist an army attack, not an emotional loss of Theon and a pack of dogs. If they do that the same, if they do it at all, in my opinion it will reflect bad on Yara’s badassery. Who knows, maybe she’s not suppposed to be seen as such.

  46. Erik
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Hi Bryan,

    I was expecting at some point for the “who hired the cutthroat to kill Bran in S1E2″ to be resolved this season as it is in SOS…will it?

    Thanks!

  47. House Mormont
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Strider,

    Yara is a badass, but a sensible badass, unlike other Ironborn

    that’s basically her argument in the KM

  48. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Strider: Never mind it would have been Asha’s choice too, rather than cut her loses at Ramsey’s dog threat combined with Theon’s transformation to Reek.

    Everybody makes a deal about Yara and her three Ironmen taking off because of the dogs,… when I look at the way the scene is filmed, it looks as if the Iron Islanders were ready to kill all the dogs and Ramsay too, from the last look on her face , she left in disgust not for fear of dogs.
    (Why the hell were two super bad ass Ironmen lost anyway? I though she took only the best. Where were the other 45 Iron Islanders?)

  49. Danyarya
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    I love it when GoO has guests, and Brian Cogman is by far my favorite.. .well, okay, tied with Hodor. :) While I love listening to them discuss the show/books, and Kate’s inclusion this year has been a positive one, I think that they need to break it up a little and talk with some behind the scenes folks. Very good podcast. Zack, Eric, and Micah have become my travelling companions since I discovered them late last year, and I can’t put into words how much I enjoy their insights into my favorite obsession–ASpoIaF and GoT. One of these days I will get around to iTunes and giving them my 5 star review.

    Is Cast of Kings good? I also need a second podcast for my commute every week since GoO hasn’t been doing the Wednesday Episodes that much anymore.

  50. Rygar
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    The only thing missing in the Dreadfort scene was Yara calling Ramsay a c*nt!

  51. Luka Nieto
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    No enough time to shoot, not enough money. He wasn’t talking about the final, edited length of the episode.

  52. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Hath4: We know that the ramsay myranda scene was cut short, in the first trailer you can see her slap ramsay. Some are speculating that she was killed either by ramsay or ironborn and the death was cut do to the sept scandal and the crasters scandal.

    That’s my thought too, HBO tired of the flack had a reedit of E6 done , maybe just a few days before it aired… all that digital stuff is easy to do these days.
    Sure looked like an awkward edit, Ramsay sort of appears TA-DA! Shirtless covered with blood streaks that don’t look like love bites.
    A totally weird scene.

  53. Strider
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Boojam: Everybody makes a deal about Yara and her three Ironmen taking off because of the dogs,… when I look at the way the scene is filmed, it looks as if the Iron Islanders were ready to kill all the dogs and Ramsay too, from the last look on her face , she left in disgust not for fear of dogs.

    Hah! I haven’t read everybody so I don’t know what everybody saw. I saw the following ending sequence (and these are not exact quotes, just what I remember) after she already knows Theon is no longer Theon:

    Yara (preping to fight) at Ramsey: Give me my brother back and no more of your men will die!
    Ramsey at Yara: You have bigger balls than he ever had. I wonder if how you run with such big balls. (Maybe he said fast enough? can’t remember)

    Bolton’s bastard pulls the key to the dog cages. Yara looks at him, then at Theon and then the scene cuts to her running to her boats. Yes, she did look intense at both. Disgust, maybe. I saw consideration of what should she do, should she run? You can interpret however you want it. It really is subjective.

    Which is why it makes for an interesting discussion.

    But yes, Ry is correct because that was definitely missing in the scene!

  54. House Ray
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Bryan says up front there are some major book changes in this year’s plot. That’s fine but they better end it the way we hope they do…

  55. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Strider:
    Lysa/ Petyr revelation as a Double Indemnity final scene. Interesting how they write one thing and from outside you can get something different. Somehow I perceived it as a mix between excitement for being an accomplice to Jon’s poisoning with Baelish as mastermind (like he says) and blackmail on her part to get married on the spot. LF also looked to be between “God, please shut up crazy woman!” and “Fuck, I’m trapped.”

    Thx for the reminder. That was a really cool comment from BC. The only way to shut her up was to kiss her! Great scene…although he implied that they intentionally separated that scene and moved it up from the upcoming crazy “Only Cat” scene. He never did state the reason for the separation. Maybe in a future interview.

  56. Valaquen
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard:
    5) Dreadfort siege was intended to be slightly longer ironborn siege (edited shorter)…it was meant to take the wind out Yara’s sails…it was meant to be a botched mission. Ramsay let her go. She is going to have to live with “cutting and running.” Ramsay not meant to be shirtless but was intended not to have armor.

    Does this mean more was shot but cut, or more was written for the scene but cut before it was even filmed? Would love to see it extended even by a minute on the home release.

  57. Boojam
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Valaquen: Does this mean more was shot but cut, or more was written for the scene but cut before it was even filmed? Would love to see it extended even by a minute on the home release.

    They always shoot more than they use, scenes that have many takes, of course, but extra stuff that is never used, been true in movies for a 100 years. Standard operational procedure.
    Yeah some stuff that gets written is never blocked in and many scripts have sequences rewritten.
    In the Ramsay-Yara confrontation seems HBO put the hammer down and had something controversial cut, in a bit clumsy manner since there was no way to go back and reshoot.

  58. House Mormont
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    Cut before it was filmed, but also some was filmed and cut

  59. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Not happy about this change, but as long as that scene is still awesome I’ll be okay

  60. Rygar
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Strider,

    I wanted a “c*nt” from Yara more as an “up yours” to all the naysayers from S2 who complained about her use of the word.

  61. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Valaquen: Does this mean more was shot but cut, or more was written for the scene but cut before it was even filmed? Would love to see it extended even by a minute on the home release.

    I would enjoy seeing/reading the original draft of the scene, but I’m going to take it at face value as BC stated: Ramsay let her go and she opted to cut and run, and will face the consequences of her actions later.

  62. Valaquen
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Boojam: They always shoot more than they use, scenes that have many takes, of course, but extra stuff that is never used, been true in movies for a 100 years. Standard operational procedure.
    Yeah some stuff that gets written is never blocked in and many scripts have sequences rewritten.
    In the Ramsay-Yara confrontation seems HBO put the hammer down and had something controversial cut, in a bit clumsy manner since there was no way to go back and reshoot.

    House Mormont:
    Valaquen,

    Cut before it was filmed, but also some was filmed and cut

    I see, thanks. Well I hope HBO hear the confusion over the scene and reinstate the cut material for DVD/BD.

  63. Jen@House Stark
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Strider: Hah! I haven’t read everybody so I don’t know what everybody saw. I saw the following ending sequence (and these are not exact quotes, just what I remember) after she already knows Theon is no longer Theon:

    Yara (preping to fight) at Ramsey: Give me my brother back and no more of your men will die!
    Ramsey at Yara: You have bigger balls than he ever had. I wonder if how you run with such big balls. (Maybe he said fast enough? can’t remember)

    Bolton’s bastard pulls the key to the dog cages. Yara looks at him, then at Theon and then the scene cuts to her running to her boats. Yes, she did look intense at both. Disgust, maybe. I saw consideration of what should she do, should she run? You can interpret however you want it. It really is subjective.

    Which is why it makes for an interesting discussion.

    But yes, Ry is correct because that was definitely missing in the scene!

    What Strider says here. Also, help me with this GOT peeps, but, wasn’t Sunday night’s episode “short”? It was like 52 minutes? So, show the whole Dreadfort sceen. It was important, at least to book readers, to try to understand the changes.

  64. Cheese Souffle
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Bryan Cogman,

    (or anyone else who has thoughts on the matter),

    From Cersei’s POV, since she’s the one preparing the Crown’s witnesses, what was her motivation for putting Shae on the stand, since her testimony upended Tywin’s plans when Tyrion demanded trial by combat? We don’t really have the benefit of her mindset in ASOS or the show. Is she looking to pour salt in the wound? Does she have to call Shae in order to sway Oberyn, who might otherwise be unconvinced by the testimony of witnesses he sees as royal stooges?

    I’d love it if you could share Cersei’s thought process, since it seems like there’s already a mountain (ahem) of evidence to convict Tyrion without Shae’s testimony. From Cersei’s POV, why introduce a wild card like that?

  65. Roger König
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Awesome episode. Bryan Cogman is such a sympathatic guy! :)

    Unfortunately i forgot to send in my question, which was:

    Why did Karl (Tanner) have a last name? :D

  66. Dogs
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle,

    Well, uh, other than Shae’s testimony there actually was no firsthand evidence that Tyrion secretly plotted to kill Joffrey – only that he had publicly or privately threatened to take some kind of action against him. Shae’s testimony (if it were true) is the only real conclusive firsthand evidence of Tyrion’s regicide. Without it, sure, you can connect the dots with the all the threats Tyrion’s made and the missing poison or whatever, but there wasn’t any evidence that directly implicated Tyrion. I assume that’s why Cersei coaxed Shae for her testimony, not to upend Tywin’s plans but to assert to the judges, without a doubt, that Tyrion was responsible for the crime, while self-consciously and simultaneously inflicting as much emotional damage on Tyrion as possible with Shae’s surprise betrayal.

  67. Strider
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark: What Strider says here.Also, help me with this GOT peeps, but, wasn’t Sunday night’s episode “short”? It was like 52 minutes? So, show the whole Dreadfort sceen. It was important, at least to book readers, to try to understand the changes.

    HAHA You’ve done it now Lady Stark! Talk about show changes to the book Asha character! I can hear in the back of my mind a voice that can only be Ry’s saying: Quit bitching ladies, Yara is not Asha… (though, I have no idea how Ry sounds like, just clarifying!). Bryan did say it was the shortest ep. I counted 51 running min.

    @Hodor’s Bastard: I read your list first, because it was so well done. Only thought to add actually. Not sure how I got into the whole Dreadfort scene!!! :P

    @Ry: On second thought it would have been even better if she’d have said “fucking penis” and then spit him. I got tired of vagina used for denigration purposes! Penis can be taken down a peg too, you know? #FeministsFTW

  68. Hexonx
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Re: Yara

    He also said that it’s not looked well upon by the Ironborn to “cut and run” and she is going to have to deal with that choice in the future. So maybe it’s used against her at the Kingsmoot?

  69. spacechampion
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Best GOO episode!

  70. Isabelle
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle:

    From Cersei’s POV, since she’s the one preparing the Crown’s witnesses, what was her motivation for putting Shae on the stand, since her testimony upended Tywin’s plans when Tyrion demanded trial by combat? We don’t really have the benefit of her mindset in ASOS or the show. Is she looking to pour salt in the wound? Does she have to call Shae in order to sway Oberyn, who might otherwise be unconvinced by the testimony of witnesses he sees as royal stooges?

    I’d love it if you could share Cersei’s thought process, since it seems like there’s already a mountain (ahem) of evidence to convict Tyrion without Shae’s testimony. From Cersei’s POV, why introduce a wild card like that?

    Two thoughts on this:

    1) Cersei wanted both Tyrion AND Sansa taken down, and Shae’s testimony implicated Sansa. Pycelle’s testimony only waffled about a necklace in Sansa’s possession, not the motivations of Sansa herself.

    2) And yeah, it was a big dose of salt in the wound. Cersei wanted to destroy Tyrion, and what better way than to have the woman she assumed he loved (given his track record with Tysha, another lowborn girl he’d taken up with) stick the knife in his back?

    Besides, Tyrion having and losing a trial by combat falls right in line with what Cersei wants: a very dead Tyrion. When it comes down to it, do you think she’s truly bothered that Tywin’s plans have been upended? She’s a grieving mother who wants revenge against the man she thinks killed her boy. Tyrion dying also ensures that Jaime remains with her, if she knew about the Casterly Rock deal between Jaime and Tywin.

  71. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx:
    Re: Yara
    He also said that it’s not looked well upon by the Ironborn to “cut and run” and she is going to have to deal with that choice in the future.So maybe it’s used against her at the Kingsmoot?

    Can you imagine it? It is not going to go well for her at all, especially after the Moat Cailin incident happens. I think we can safely assume that she will be despised/disrespected/alienated for her actions, regardless of what she says about Theon “being dead to her.” But will she actually return to Pyke? I still believe, as others have speculated extensively about, that the showrunners have another destiny for her than the Kingsmoot.

  72. Lightbringer
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Great episode guys!

    Also, this:

    House Mormont:
    WHAT DO YOU MEAN SYRIO IS DEAD

    D:

  73. zigzag
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    As others have mentioned, there are a lot of differences between what we saw in the trailers and what actually aired! That slapping Ramsey scene is an example which didn’t air! Another we haven’t seen is when Tyrion in trailer said”I dont think Im talking my way out of this one” I feel that was most likely cut too and I doubt that will come up later…Strange!

  74. Hexonx
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    zigzag,

    There was also a POV shot from the champion of Mereen as he charges Daario, who is spinning his arakh that was in the 1st trailer but wasn’t in the final scene.

    The trailers must be done before they finish cutting the episodes.

  75. Hexonx
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I still believe, as others have speculated extensively about, that the showrunners have another destiny for her than the Kingsmoot.

    Yeah, I’m not sure if there will be a Kingsmoot or not. I think she goes back to Pyke though. With Theon now “dead” she will accept her role as heir to Balon. Besides, if she gets captured by Stannis now how does cutting and running effect her in the future?

  76. zigzag
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx,

    Yeah exactly! I noticed that too! Also if you look closely the scene between Joffrey and Jaime in the first episode is totally different from the trailer where Jaime says” The war is not won!”

  77. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    She’s not going to Moat Cailin, or we would know it…
    And I think the show was pretty clear on how this change does little to affect Yara beyond understanding that Theon is gone. Yara comes back to Pyke with less respect. One thing that could make this change relevant is if Balon dies before she returns, and Euron would already have taken over. That way she would be a more direct vehicle to introduce the Ironborn storyline.

    Also, the fact that she “will have to deal with it” in the future is, if anything, a big boost to Kingsmoot supporters. We had nothing to go by before, but this is something.

  78. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I want to believe that! Euron will assume ironborn leadership w/wo the Kingsmoot, but something about Yara’s tale is not sitting well with me. We’ll see after Moat Cailin.

  79. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    I was 95% sure Yara would tie into Moat Cailin until the episode aired. She’s back on her ship now (which I did not expect to happen), and she already met Reek and saw that he is Ramsay’s creature. If she’s headed to Moat Cailin (and there’s no indication of that, she’s not retreating on land), the whole scene will change in that Yara would never buy Ramsay’s play of “Theon Greyjoy” coming to treat with them, nor would any of Yara’s men.

    It’s safe to say everyone was wrong about Yara’s trip. She did, in the end, go fail and turn back home. This is an awkward decision, but the scene did have promise (and with the exception of two issues in the transitions it was actually pretty good- especially in the acting department). The point of this scene is quite simply to show you these characters for what they are: Ramsay who doesn’t bother to put a shirt on after being interrupted to battle while having sex, Reek who just refuses to believe he isn’t being tricked and doesn’t even allow his sister to save him and Yara who is determined to save her brother but quickly realizes her brother is gone.

    I think this scene makes sense in the end, because the alternative is dropping Yara for two seasons after her three or four episodes in the second season. To pick up with Yara in season 5 where she becomes a semi-major character would be jarring since hardly anyone would remember her, let alone back her and rout for her. This scene, with all it’s issues, fixed that problem. It was short and to the point, showing the badass side of Yara and in a rather memorable fashion. When she comes back (whether later this season or early in the next) people will think “oh it’s Theon’s badass sister, she’s really cool” instead of “who the fuck is this?”.

    On season 5… I think Euron’s chances of making it after episode 6 and this interview are up to 70%, though Victarion is still anyone’s guess (while it will be a miracle if they even consider to cast Aeron for season 5). And Dorne is up to 90% after all the time they devoted to setting it up this season, which is really reassuring. Skeptics be damned!

  80. Hexonx
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I want to believe that!

    Yes! I’m thinking back to the Theon baptism scene where they are all standing among the jagged rocks of the Iron Islands and imaging a bunch of Ironbron factions “mooting” it out among those jagged rocks.

  81. jentario
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Hexonx,

    It would be really cool if we get Nagga’s bones, though. The show has delivered on most sets before, so who knows…

  82. Johan Sporre
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    One of the best GOO episodes! I can take “only” two episodes per week if they are an hour long and this good.

    Bryan Cogman,

    You know, if you have trouble distinguishing if your scripts are excellent I’d be happy to take a look at your drafts.

  83. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Very interesting possibilities. Below are a few more goofy thoughts:

    1) I was one of those who thought Yara would escape the Dreadfort battle but without her crew…that she would remain in the north “on the periphery” of Theon/Reek’s storyline. I’m still scratching my head on this. If she is back on her ship, what the heck is next for her? Her crew must be saying “WTF?” and she must be under some pressure to do something other than simply sail back through dangerous waters. I know it probably won’t happen (due to publicized casting news) but Yara is SO close to Vic right now!! Why not Moat Cailin? GoT geography is flexible! :)

    2) I bet we will know how Balon dies. We may even be privy to who did it (if it wasn’t an accident…) and it might encourage the Euron/Vic story without the Kingsmoot.

    3) Moat Cailin is very key to the Greyjoy story. I’ve already mentioned a possible Yara/Vic meeting, but if not…will there be any survivors that escape to inform the Greyjoys of Theon/Reek’s treachery? That will further humiliate Yara.

    4) I hope we don’t get Deepwood Motte. I don’t see the need. Given that, I don’t believe Yara will ever make it back to Pyke. For some reason, I find Yara’s tale more interesting if she hangs around the neck and north. And Stannis will go directly to Winterfell with his northern forces.

    Just a few more crazy thoughts to go with this odd situation.

  84. Currawong
    Posted May 15, 2014 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle

    I’d love it if you could share Cersei’s thought process, since it seems like there’s already a mountain (ahem) of evidence to convict Tyrion without Shae’s testimony. From Cersei’s POV, why introduce a wild card like that?

    Humiliation. This IS Cersei – she doesn’t just want to take Tyrion down and see him killed, she wants to see him totally and publicly humiliated first, and made into a laughing stock. All the previous testimony just went to ‘proving’ Tyrion’s guilt for Joffrey’s murder, but Shae’s testimony is the real icing on the cake for Cersei.

  85. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted May 16, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    4) Ep6 was a Lannister family episode, with the trial scene emphasizing the looks between characters

    Yes, definitely, the trial was their family drama writ large

    5) Dreadfort siege was intended to be slightly longer ironborn siege (edited shorter)

    I think that scene was botched in the editing room, not that I’m trying to point fingers, but it clearly was not written that way or even filmed that way. The shirt thing is interesting….BCog didn’t write it that way..someone added it in later or last minute….director, producer, someone of higher rank than BCog IMHO. I think the shirtless thing was too much, he’d be crazy to be without armor did he have to be shirtless?

    7) BC also believes the IBB gave them a “provisional loan.”

    I always assumed this was the case. Banks loan to competitive businesses all the time. They never go all in with anyone. It’s a way to spread their risk. What the layman calls, hedging their bets. I hope people don’t think the bank went all in with Stannis and dropped the Lannisters entirely because that isn’t (and wouldn’t in reality) be the case. It’s too early in the conflict for the IBB to do that.

    13) Syrio Forel is dead.

    I haz a sad.

    15) Cersei prepped the witnesses, not Tywin.

    Okay, this makes MUCH more sense. I said it earlier on another post, Tywin would never have put someone on the stand who would have provoked Tyrion to such a degree unless he wanted to scuttle his own deal. HOWEVER, we do know that Tywin told Cersei at the breakfast scene in Ep 2 to have Shae brought to the Tower of the Hand before the wedding. In which case, Tywin had to have known that Shae was a possible witness and that Cersei would stoop to any low to convict Tyrion, so he’s smart enough to have anticipated that her testimony would potentially be a disaster. Regardless of whether Tywin was or wasn’t behind the prep of the witnesses (and BCog confirms he wasn’t) he badly miscalculated how hurt Tyrion is and what his reaction would be. He’s always underestimated him (can name several scenes in the show where Tyrion surprises him). Ironic that the child he dislikes the most is most like him and the one he least understands. Then again, speaking as a parent, this is probably very normal. :)

  86. Valaquen
    Posted May 17, 2014 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: I think the shirtless thing was too much, he’d be crazy to be without armor

    But… isn’t he crazy? He’s never struck me as sensible.

  87. Hello just wanted to give you a quick heads up.

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    but I figured I’d post to let you know. The style
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