Alex Graves on the scene fans were expecting to see
By Ours is the Fury on in Interview, News.

Brienne and Pod
The season finale of Game of Thrones has everyone talking about what went down but most of all about what didn’t happen. Alex Graves, director of “The Children,” has addressed to Entertainment Weekly the speculation surrounding the possible inclusion and the ultimate exclusion of the hair-raising epilogue from A Storm of Swords.

Major spoilers to follow below the cut!

On the subject of Lady Stoneheart, Graves tells EW:

“It was never on the docket to do this season — ever. The [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] have such a challenge adapting the books into a really focused television experience. It’s very hard, it’s very complicated, it’s much harder then they’ve been given credit for, I think, and they do a brilliant job. But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like? It just didn’t end up being a part of what was going to happen this season. And finally one reason, in case you didn’t notice, a lot happens this season … To add that in is something they opted out of. But what’s funny is that it was never going to be in the season, yet it took off on the Internet like it was going to happen.”

As for the odds of Stoneheart appearing on Game of Thrones in the future, Graves claims that he’s “begged to have an answer” but that he has no idea.

Ours is the Fury: The fact that they think bringing back Fairley to play a murderous zombie is a waste does not bode well for her inclusion in future seasons, but hope springs eternal.


Winter Is Coming Live: Game of Thrones Season 4 Finale by Winter Is Coming


332 Comments

  1. Kosis
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Unfortunate.

  2. LordStarkington
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    I could be misreading it, but the ‘waste’ to them seems to have been the idea of bringing her back this season *just* to kill some people.

  3. Roey
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Oh god. Shitstorm is coming.

  4. sati
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    He’s an idiot. Why is he allowed to give interviews after he embarrassed the entire team with – it’s not a rape scene – few h later – it is a rape scene?

  5. Ygritte
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    I really hope they change their minds and don’t cut her! :(

  6. kdenn1020
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Thank you Alex Graves for making a statement early the following day. Too many fans are getting too wrapped up it all. Glad he came out defending David and Dan very strongly.

  7. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Except LS is much more than a murderous zombie. She is critical to Brienne and Jaime’s character arc. I hope we see her in season 5

  8. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Well that’s pretty much what Stoneheart’s deal is in general, and would be the same in the fifth season.

    And just an FYI- I don’t expect people to use spoiler coding in these comments since it’s clearly a spoiler post.

  9. Laura
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    They should have just shown her for the first time at the VERY end. Have her be the last shot of the season.

  10. Dwayne Roberts
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    This is the first and only time I have ever hated the show … Episode 10 ruined a lot … Ok I understand not wanting to bring LS in but to take tyrions story concerning Tisha and completely destroy it …. Why the yuck wud TYRION go to his fathers room after being released by Jamie with no reason … Y go to the persons room who has put u in the situation u just got out of …unless there was a real strong reason which is Tyshas stuff

  11. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I’m hoping for D&D to put and end to this, sooner rather than later. If you cut her, just say so. There’s no reason to hide it from us unless they are going to include her.

    And what I take from Graves’ comment is that they were still unsure if they want her in before writing season 5. Which could go either way, really. What they didn’t want to do was bring Michelle Fairley in for just one scene now and then one scene next season. I can understand that. I hope that this storyline makes it into season 5, though. I don’t see the point in Brienne and Pod or the Berric resurrections if she ends up being cut.

  12. Sam DeGree
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I really feel as though including LS would have been making a promise D&D couldn’t perform next season. Placing that scene at the end of the season puts LS up on a pedestal…it creates the expectation that we are going to see a lot more of LS soon, and that she will be a major game-changer for the series. Based on the novels currently written, there simply is not enough significant material for LS to fulfill those expectations, and viewers would ultimately have felt like they were cheated by a cheap trick.

    I suppose the same could be said of many of the book/show’s scenes with the White Walkers; but at least with that we know it will ultimately play a major role in the story’s conclusion, so we can be content with the slow burn. There is no such guarantee with LS.

  13. Ser Bro
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I try very hard to not be a knucklehead and understand that the show and the books are ultimately two different things, but for real? Like…really? I’m not going to light my hair on fire and curse D&D for ruining anything, but they’re starting to depart from the source material in a really strange way that honestly makes little sense.

  14. rabid_J
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I don’t think they’ve read the books – they just skim wikipedia.

    I didn’t need 7 scenes of a Missandei/Greyworm romance this season. The only reason they aged her up is to get more tits on the show and I think there are copious amounts as it is.

    They could’ve had Coldhands fighting zombies instead of fireballs and poor looking skeletons as well. More Nights King-esq scenes and less nonsense please.

  15. TyrionForPresident
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    That’s how I read it as well. I think–since we know Brienne and Pod meet up with her and (I assume) at least Brienne survives the encounter, that Stoneheart will have more to do in TWOW than *just* killing people…if that’s the case and the first time we see her is when Brienne sees her, I’m okay with there not being a lot of foreshadowing leading up to it. I don’t miss UnCat just running around with the brotherhood killing people–it would detract from more necessary storylines and scenes I’d rather see.

  16. LordStarkington
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I don’t know if I agree. I think there’s a difference between introducing her this season to kill a random Frey and introducing her by having Brienne/Pod interact with her and within the context of the rumblings of resistance/defiance by the BWB and some of the Tully bannermen following Tywin’s death. The former is pretty much just a moment solely designed to shock or wow the viewer, the latter would do the same but integrate it into the story.

    That said, I *am* much less convinced she’ll ever show up at this point.

  17. Lyn
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Well at least they confirmed the reason for her not appearing in the episode.

  18. Shady_Grady
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Some form of revenge on the Freys is important to the reader or at least was to me. The larger point is that LS could be used to show that revenge is pointless or makes one into a monster. Either way I was disappointed not to see her and hope she hasn’t been dropped entirely.

  19. Immi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    This guy gets it. I was gonna say the exact same thing, so thanks for saving me the effort!

    Sam DeGree:
    I really feel as though including LS would have been making a promise D&D couldn’t perform next season. Placing that scene at the end of the season puts LS up on a pedestal…it creates the expectation that we are going to see a lot more of LS soon, and that she will be a major game-changer for the series. Based on the novels currently written, there simply is not enough significant material for LS to fulfill those expectations, and viewers would ultimately have felt like they were cheated by a cheap trick.

    I suppose the same could be said of many of the book/show’s scenes with the White Walkers; but at least with that we know it will ultimately play a major role in the story’s conclusion, so we can be content with the slow burn. There is no such guarantee with LS.

  20. Unbowed Unbent Unhodor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Uh-ohhh sounds like she might not be in it! I just wish all book readers could read this article and be done with it.

  21. Jen@House Stark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Unforgivable, D&D, I will never get past that slight to the fans. I got past Donal, I got past Coldhands, but Lady Stoneheart was essential. HUGE slap in the face to bookreaders. Really sad.

  22. d1gitals3rf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    I have little reason to doubt she’ll be in season 5. And as I think about it, she makes much more sense there. With the thinner gruel of books 4 and 5, reintroducing the BWB and her at that point, with Brienne and Pod in the mix sounds great to me.

    I too was hoping to see her this season but this freakout about it is all out of proportion.

  23. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Donal Noye was in this season. His role was given to Grenn. Which I totally approve. Coldhands could have been interesting but we have no idea if he’s necessary for the end game or not

  24. Strider
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    I honestly don’t understand why Mr. Graves is quite so surprised about the Internet reaction of book fans regarding LS.

    Obviously many of us think she’s important in some way. We don’t know if she really is in the end, but it is a valid opinion regarding an established Stark character some book fans got attached to. It doesn’t just go away, and it is not like there are many Starks to avenge the RW left laying around. What’s more, from a book perspective she is a central piece in the whole Brienne/Jamie/Catlyn character triangle.

    Since the show is not catering to book fans alone they made a decision that they believe benefits the show audience and I get it. But from that to act like you did not expect such a reaction is just childish. This is ASoIaF fandom too, not only GoT TV viewers! Have you read us?! We get like this. You do your stuff the best you know how for TV and we do what we do best (hah, complaining is part of it)! Jeez.. so touchy.

  25. feyrband
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    there’s no reason she can’t show up later. it could be the ending to an episode where we are getting some brienne/pod time, early on next season.

  26. rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    This was one of the scenes I was looking forward to the most. If she doesn’t make it into the show then I am going to feel really negative about it. I haven’t minded most of the changes but I am just not okay with this one.

  27. Nicolai
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Zombie?

    A: Zombies can’t talk
    B: Zombies can’t think

    It’s pretty stupid calling Lady Stoneheart a zombie. Not a original zombie.

  28. Nayrael
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    FFS people, what is the point of introducing Lady Stoneheart here other than to please the book fans? In the books she appeared only twice, meaning that they would introduce her, show her once during S5 or S6 and then go on hiatus with her again. There is not even a good opportunity to make original scenes with her.

    If she appears (and she probably will because she IS a major character) she will appear in the season where she is supposed to actually do something. She does NOT need to appear at the same time as she did in the books, especially since GOT already works with an altered timeline.

    All in all, for a TV show introducing her now is counter-productive and while book fans would be happy with a cameo, it would be useless at best and a horrible decision in the long run.

  29. jasonw
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Immi,

    you mean like the giant zombie army at the end of season 2 that we never see again?

  30. ColdStark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:08 pm | Permalink


    But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like?

    That is a disturbingly lazy and over-simplified way to dismiss an important character in this story. A polarising character too, yes. But I hope that isn’t an insight into the discussions he had with them about this (I think it is sadly). People are becoming very defensive over this which is fine, but I can’t see how any rational person can say that LS is insignificant or that her absence in an adaptation isn’t an important issue to be debated. To describe her as ‘a Zombie that goes around killing people’ is just ridiculous.

  31. Azad Injejikian
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Alex directed 4 the scenes i was most looking forward to this season and I was underwhelmed or disapponted with all except Joffrey’s outro. He surprised me with some scenes I didn’t I’d care for, but overall I don’t like his blocking or his edits.

    He’s a capable director but I wouldn’t cry if he wasn’t working season 5.

  32. Dave
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    I am begging them to cut ties with Alex Graves next season. He is horrible. I find myself disliking more things about every episode HE directs than any other director. Plus he comes out with the dumbest comments as well. Calling LS nothing more than a “zombie” is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I think would even piss George Martin off. There are probably hundreds of talented directors that would be willing and able to direct an episode of Game of Thrones. Why does this guy, who isn’t even that talented to begin with get to direct 3 or 4 every season?

  33. Etcetera
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    …you’re joking, right? Because this comment really is absurd.

  34. Myk
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad she wasn’t included this season and that the whole part with Tysha was dropped. No one that hasnt read the books would have any idea who that is or have any interest invested at all in a character who they’ve never seen and has been mentioned once. For the most part book readers seem to be under the misconception that this show is strictly for them and not a much wider audience.
    I’m also glad that the people who constantly cry because a story that was written to be unfilmable isn’t exactly like the books obviously won’t continue watching and none of us fans will have to waste time reading their bullshit on here next season.

  35. the other guy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Ser Bro:
    I try very hard to not be a knucklehead and understand that the show and the books are ultimately two different things, but for real? Like…really? I’m not going to light my hair on fire and curse D&D for ruining anything, but they’re starting to depart from the source material in a really strange way that honestly makes little sense.

    Exactly my reaction.

    Also, how can the guy be surprised that we, as fans, expected her to be in this season ? It’s the freaking epilogue of the book they’re adapting. Of course we’re expecting it…

    So they don’t want to bring Fairley back for a 50 seconds cameo just to be a zombie that kills some Frey dudes, but it’s ok to bring back Momoa at the end of season 2 just to be an illusion in Dany’s head ?

    The worst thing out of all this is that this random website, EW or whatever decided to spoil the Stoneheart reveal for all the unsullied to see with their article, because they decided that it’s a bad plotline, a lame twist, and that it shouldn’t be in the show.
    Well guess what. It’s what GRRM wrote. I’m no book purist but the fact that Cat is now a vengeful zombie is huge, whether they like it or not. If D&D decide to cut it because they know she won’t do much in the books anyway, then too bad for the show, but at least they know what they’re doing. But the fact that a random news website is spoiling what is a major plot point in the book (that could still be adapted in the show), is just terrible.

  36. Gonzolegend
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people?

    Oh christ they aren’t going to do LSH story at all… this is like having the entire Season 1 Daenerys story arc and then cutting the dragons in the last scene.

  37. MattyC
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:

    re: Donal Noye

    You can’t just say Donal Noye WAS in the season/His role was given to Grenn.

    Sorry, that means he wasn’t in. Donal Noye was a long time vet of the wall, not some noob who grew a beard. His role was more than just dying in a tunnel. He gave Jon advice, prodded him into different ways of thinking, and ultimately, gave the Wall to him before deciding to defend the gate. Totally different character beats, IMO.

  38. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    Nayrael,

    It didn’t have to be useless.
    If they would have had Brienne be taken by the BWB this season and ended on Stoneheart hanging a Frey, they could have picked up right away in season 5 with Stoneheart meeting Brienne and the whole trial/hanging scene. And I think they could have created one or two additional scenes before having Stoneheart send Brienne off to find Jamie. So in a sense, she could have appeared just as much as Mance did in season 3. But instead they preferred to have Brienne fight the Hound. A weird choice, if you ask me.

    In season 5, she can have one more scene now. But I’m having trouble thinking where they could fit her in. Where do they even reveal her? How do they do it? It seems much more messy to introduce her in season 5, especially since she’ll have been dead for two seasons.

    If they cut her, let them face the fans and say it.

  39. Immi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    jasonw,

    You might wanna direct that to the original commenter, but regardless, no, not quite like that. Although we don’t see the fight at The Fist of The First Men, we find out (admittedly after a long wait) that that was where they headed and what went down. It may have been a bit cheaty, but an unseen battle with a foe no-one truly understands is allowed to be kinda vague for me. The resurrection of a vengeful Catelyn Stark is different and needs a lot more substance, which it currently doesn’t have beyond ‘She’s pissed.’

  40. beth
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    wouldn’t expect much else from literal piece of shit, alex graves. seriously, I understand the need to make changes for the show, but would it kill the people involved to have at least a basic understanding of the characters? to dismiss lady stoneheart and her entire arc as “a zombie killing some people” is pretty indicative of his familiarity w/ the story as a whole

    I mean, this is coming from the same person who filmed cersei loudly screaming “stop” and thought it came off as consensual.

  41. Wiley Wolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    I think the village Arya sails out of is basically supposed to be Saltpans (just smaller). You actually see the Braavosi sailors loading salt to put on the ship. If I were to guess, Brienne will track Arya to that village, it will have been raided in the meantime – but no Arya body. So they follow the raiders, have adventures, meet Gendry and the Brotherhood, and then Stoneheart. This assumes Stoneheart is still in the show. It just seems like too big an event to omit – though if her role in the books is minor (which would be surprising to me) I could see it.

  42. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Nicolai,

    A zombie is a revenant, more specifically an animated corpse. Ergo, LS is a zombie. – Broadly speaking, of curse. ;-)

  43. Delta1212
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    Jesus, people, it’s Alex Graves saying this stuff, not Benioff and Weiss. They may very well not include Lady Stoneheart in the show, but this isn’t exactly rock solid evidence. If one of the writers said this, then I’d start thinking her odds are pretty poor, but it’s not one of the writers.

  44. Clob
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    rabid_J: The only reason they aged her up is to get more tits on the show and I think there are copious amounts as it is.

    I’m glad they are using an adult for the part instead of a 10 year old, regardless of nudity. It’s far more common to have child actors at that age that are weak enough to be a distraction in scenes. There have been a couple minor child roles already in this series that have achieved that.

  45. Sarah Blackfyre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    JUST killing people!? Are you kidding me!? Never mind Beric’s sacrifice, nor the much needed revenge on the Freys. It’s also an important part of Brienne’s journey. How can you cut that out???? D&D – you need to seriously reconsider. And maybe not have Alex Graves direct that episode (if you do include Lady Stoneheart).

  46. jkb
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    well, like many people I am disappointed but not surprised. the worst part is that we still don’t know – she might be in, she might be out. they gotta do something with BwB story, right?

    so… more speculations and more bitching from LS fans incoming! get used to it, we ain’t going nowhere ;p

  47. MattyC
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Strider
    ColdStark
    the other guy
    Ser Bro,

    Right On! You all have put words to my thoughts.
    Graves comes off as a giant book-trolling douche here. “What’s funny is…”
    Like we the fans were supposed to know that it was never in the plans all along, and are acting irrationally by getting excited to see this scene. This shit blew my mind the first time I read it, and because of all this EW-spoiling and Twitter blow-up, now it will never have that impact on the viewership.

  48. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    Don’t rush to conclusions, Jen!
    The fact that they haven’t filled him in makes me hopeful that they haven’t made a decision yet (back when they worked with him, at least).
    Either that or they want to face the shitstorm themselves rather than let anyone else take the hit.

  49. Declizzy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Absolute rubbish what he’s saying. They could have at least 1 scene of her. Other characters also have 1 scene in 1 season, for instance Yara Greyjoy, or Balon which we haven’t seen at all this season. Osha and Rickon, etc.

  50. Cheese Souffle
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    To be honest, people need to calm down and cut D&D, et. al. some slack. The number of people who know LS’ endgame can fit in a room; we really have no idea how vital or (as the case could very likely be), NOT vital she is to the overall plot.

  51. Lord Kidneystone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    kay, I respect the decisions of TPTB in reference to time & money constraints that are too numberable to go onto here. But, we have the opportunity to accomplish the same goals by different means. Cat is undoubtedly unobtainable. Why can’t the BWB have stumbled onto the Blackfish after he disappears from the RW. They could have set him up as the leader of the BWB. TPTB have been quick to accomplish killing two characters with one stone before without any trouble. We know that the Blackfish has to turn up sooner or later. Why not now? He could have met an untimely fate and be resurrected as well all in front of the viewers eyes. If no LS, why not Lord Stoneheart?

  52. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    jkb,

    That is absolutely the worst part.
    The “not knowing” aspect was the absolute worst part. We had to deal with it in the season 3 finale (though I never expected it to happen then), and we had to deal with it here. Don’t let that happen again, D&D. It seriously sucks. We are book readers. You shouldn’t go out of your way to surprise us. If you’re making a huge change, let us know please. And don’t let it drag.

  53. Ours is the Fury
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Sarah Blackfyre,

    I think there’s an important distinction there. You’re talking about Stoneheart as a dramatic device causing an effect on others. They’re talking about Stoneheart as a character for Michelle Fairley the actress to play. I think Stoneheart is important in a number of ways, but I can understand why an actress might not find her that scintillating to portray.

  54. Andrew
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    When you read about the Red Wedding in the books, you are already holding the pay-off with Stoneheart in your hands. How long it takes for you to get there is all on you, and it feels like one unit, like a phrase in music. It’s kind of poetic. Of course that’s hard to translate to TV, but I feel like making the viewers wait two years for that pay-off is too jarring. So maybe they’ll leave it out. It’s a shame.

    But it’s nothing compared to the lack of Tysha in Tyrion’s ending. The scene with Jaime could have been emmy material, and it motivates both of their actions from that point onwards.

  55. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Not supprised by the guy who filmed a rape scene and called it consensual to comeup with these comments. Alex Graves is clueless and I hope I don’t see him back for season 5

  56. kas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Michelle’s name has been in the credits the whole season 4, so it’s plain dumb to now act like she’s not part of the show anymore. I bet they will bring her into the next season.. they better!

  57. Joe Frost
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Quite happy that Graves is not going to be around for Season 5. Think he’s very underwhelming as a director and changes things needlessly.

  58. kas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I agree 10000% he adds things that no one wants and wants to take away chunks of the actual plot. He can stay home, I want to see the real story.

  59. ColdStark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle: To be honest, people need to calm down and cut D&D, et. al. some slack. The number of people who know LS’ endgame can fit in a room; we really have no idea how vital or (as the case could very likely be), NOT vital she is to the overall plot.

    Why does she have to be ‘vital’ to the plot though? Do you then think that she isn’t of some significance in the story already and worthy enough to be adapted? When you factor in who she was, what happened to her and then the manner in which she reappears? She also seems to be pretty damn vital to whats happening to Jamie Lannister in the books where they are right now. I’ve cut them plenty of slack on what they’ve changed already and appreciate their issues — but with that quote from Graves (the guy they hired for this episode and others) its concerning to me that the character may be cut and I’d like a much more thought out explanation why if so.

  60. kas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I agree 100% he can stay home if he wants to add things that don’t matter and aren’t in the book and instead cut out actual chunks of the story. Her going after the Freys is not mindless, I think that he’s mindless component here.

  61. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Wasn’t there an interview once where she said she’d be excited to play the part?

  62. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    sati:
    He’s an idiot. Why is he allowed to give interviews after he embarrassed the entire team with – it’s not a rape scene – few h later – it is a rape scene?

    Because he’s human, and everyone makes mistakes? He poorly edited a scene, he didn’t actually do the crime himself. Give it a bit of perspective.

    In fact, perspective could be used all round. It’s a TV show, not ISOIAF fan’s personal wish fulfillment. They didn’t kill your family, they didn’t burn your house down, they excluded a few minutes of television.

  63. GameOverRos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Graves does have a point. Sort of.

    At the moment, there isn’t a point to having Lady Stoneheart in the show. Arya, Bran, Sansa, and Jon are all starting to find their feet. At the moment, there is a lot of positive in their stories. But we don’t know what’s going to happen next season. It is entirely possible that there will be a place for Stoneheart. But, right now, there isn’t.

    That said, I don’t like the attitude Graves has [or seems to have.] ‘In case you didn’t notice, a lot happens this season.’ Yes, we know. There is no need to be so incredibly condescending. Stoneheart may only be a small plot point, and have no place in the final battle, but she comes at a time when all hope seems to be gone. I was cheering so much when I read it.

    It’s possible a time will come when we need that. So I’m not writing off Stoneheart completely.

  64. kas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle,

    You dont know that she’s not vital, so you have no point

  65. Dave
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212:
    Jesus, people, it’s Alex Graves saying this stuff, not Benioff and Weiss. They may very well not include Lady Stoneheart in the show, but this isn’t exactly rock solid evidence. If one of the writers said this, then I’d start thinking her odds are pretty poor, but it’s not one of the writers.

    Yes, but Alex Graves just spoiled the plot by even saying this. So, even if they did do it now, people will know who the character is and it won’t be as big a deal as it could have been. Him spoiling it like this, adds some pretty big credence to the character being cut.

    kas:
    Michelle’s name has been in the credits the whole season 4, so it’s plain dumb to now act like she’s not part of the show anymore. I bet they will bring her into the next season.. they better!

    Her name was never in opening sequence once. I admit to not paying close enough attention to the credits at the end, but I doubt highly they were there either.

  66. The Loon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Cheese Souffle,

    she’s vital because of Jaime…George doesn’t write in Brienne taking Jaime to see Stoneheart if she’s not important…everything that happens to Jaime is vital

  67. Jared
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    The moment that the credits rolled and Lady Stoneheart hadn’t appeared, I knew that the post-episode reactions (at least among book readers) were going to be dominated by people who were shocked/disappointed/angry that we didn’t see her, even though the expectation that she would be the last scene of the finale was ENTIRELY a highly-speculative conclusion drawn by the audience and was never something that simply “had to happen”. The conversation surrounding a great finale episode to a stellar season of television has been heavily dominated by what WASN’T in the episode (Stoneheart and Tysha) rather than what actually was. And that’s a damn shame.

    Maybe my reaction was more muted because I was never a big fan of Lady Stoneheart in the first place. As shocking and memorable as her re-introduction was on the page, it always bugged me that Martin had essentially taken back one of the major deaths from the most shocking and devastating event in the series, even if it was clear from the outset that she was a different character. For that reason, I never saw Lady Stoneheart’s return as something to be celebrated. Yes, I was expecting her to show up at the end, either with the Freys or with Brienne, but ultimately I’m perfectly fine with her absence (I actually liked the ending that we got – a rather hopeful beat with Arya boarding the ship to Braavos).

    As I stated on the recap thread, I see two possible options concerning Lady Stoneheart in the series:

    Option A: They’re saving her for a later reveal in Season 5.

    If that’s the case, then … I’m fine with them deciding to hold off. I trust Benioff and Weiss to handle her eventual introduction well. This has been an incredibly dark season and the finale ended on a more hopeful note that I actually quite liked.

    Option B: Lady Stoneheart ultimately isn’t that important. Maybe she dies (permanently) shortly into The Winds of Winter, or maybe she just doesn’t have any significant role to play in the endgame of the series.

    If that’s the case, then … I’ll be quiet honest, I’m OK if we never see her, and she winds up being cut from the show entirely. As I stated earlier, my anticipation of her reveal was entirely plot-based, and if the plot is unfolding such that she’s no longer an essential part of the story, well, then … sayonara, and may Lady Catelyn rest in peace. At this point in both Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, I care about the big picture, not minor details and tertiary characters. A ressurected Catelyn Stark isn’t inherently interesting enough to me that I need her to appear on screen in order to continue enjoying the television show.

  68. Ned's Head
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad D&D are getting trashed for the monster letdown they dropped on everyone last night. They deserve every ounce of criticism.

    The fact that the director is out there giving damage control interviews shows you just how badly they miscalculated by, once again, showing utter contempt for the diehard fans.

    Move over David Chase, D&D are coming for your, ahem, throne.

  69. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    We won’t. He may come back for 6, though.
    And yeah, I’m glad for a break from Graves (he was my favorite season 3 director and he did some great things in season 4, but I’ve had issues with him this season- the rape scene being the most obvious one). He probably shouldn’t have commented on this. His quote is really insulting to the books and even to the fans (on a certain level). He should have let the Ds handle it.

  70. Eric
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    He’s not wrong, at least when it comes to the story so far. Her debut is a great, impactful moment, but afterwards she vanishes for most of the 4th book and all of the 5th one. Stoneheart has made a whopping 2 appearances in the series as it stands, and all she really does is stare angrily and then hiss some stuff at Brienne. That would be a gigantic waste of Michelle Fairley. I’ve wondered how vital Stoneheart is to the overall story, my guess is if she gets cut entirely that’s a pretty good clue she’s not vital to the future story at all (ie Coldhands, Jojen).

  71. Jared
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    The moment that the credits rolled and Lady Stoneheart hadn’t appeared, I knew that the post-episode reactions (at least among book readers) were going to be dominated by people who were shocked/disappointed/angry that we didn’t see her, even though the expectation that she would be the last scene of the finale was ENTIRELY a highly-speculative conclusion drawn by the audience and was never something that simply “had to happen”. The conversation surrounding a great finale episode to a stellar season of television has been heavily dominated by what WASN’T in the episode (Stoneheart and Tysha) rather than what actually was. And that’s a damn shame.

    Maybe my reaction was more muted because I was never a big fan of Lady Stoneheart in the first place. As shocking and memorable as her re-introduction was on the page, it always bugged me that Martin had essentially taken back one of the major deaths from the most shocking and devastating event in the series, even if it was clear from the outset that she was a different character. For that reason, I never saw Lady Stoneheart’s return as something to be celebrated. Yes, I was expecting her to show up at the end, either with the Freys or with Brienne, but ultimately I’m perfectly fine with her absence (I actually liked the ending that we got – a rather hopeful beat with Arya boarding the ship to Braavos).

    As I stated on the recap thread, I see two possible options concerning Lady Stoneheart in the series:

    Option A: They’re saving her for a later reveal in Season 5.

    If that’s the case, then … I’m fine with them deciding to hold off. I trust Benioff and Weiss to handle her eventual introduction well, and I don’t think that she needs to appear until she’s absolutely necessary for reasons that go beyond simple shock value. This has been an incredibly dark season and the finale ended on a more hopeful note that I actually quite liked.

    Option B: Lady Stoneheart ultimately isn’t that important. Maybe she dies (permanently) shortly into The Winds of Winter, or maybe she just doesn’t have any significant role to play in the endgame of the series.

    If that’s the case, then … I’ll be quiet honest, I’m OK if we never see her, and she winds up being cut from the show entirely. As I stated earlier, my anticipation of her reveal was entirely plot-based, and if the plot is unfolding such that she’s no longer an essential part of the story, well, then … sayonara, and may Lady Catelyn rest in peace. At this point in both Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, I care about the big picture, not minor details and tertiary characters. A ressurected Catelyn Stark isn’t inherently interesting enough to me that I need her to appear on screen in order to continue enjoying the television show.

  72. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Dave,

    The interviewer asked for spoilers. There is a spoiler warning in the interview.

  73. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    IIRC that was a radio interview from way back, when the show pretty much just had started, and she offhandedly said that it should be “interesting” to play LS.

  74. Maxwell James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    sati,
    jentario,

    Graves is just doing his job. Every episode this year has been followed by multiple director interviews. Pretty sure that’s a conscious decision on the part of B&W.

  75. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Abyss,

    Yep. You see!
    She would be down for it. All it would take is three or four scenes. That could happen in all of two weeks of screentime. Probably much less.
    It’s not like it’s a commitment.

  76. Danny
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Seeds of doubt are officially sewn in my head, I no longer trust these guys, good thing we had a jason and the argonauts quality skeletor battle and a cersei tywin scene that made no difference whatsoever. Its like the dont know what the story is actually about.

  77. Dave
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    Dave,

    The interviewer asked for spoilers. There is a spoiler warning in the interview.

    Okay. Still doesn’t change the fact that he indeed spoiled the plot. He didn’t have to. If EW did an interview with Benioff and asked so since George told you, who will wind up on the throne at the end? Do you think Benioff would have answered, simply because the magazine promised to give a spoiler warning?

    My point is, the fact he mentioned the character and actress who would play the part by name, adds to the thought that she has been cut. He didn’t have to answer the question. He could have very easily given a stay tuned, or an ask Dave and Dan type answer. But he didn’t.

  78. Ned's Head
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I mean these showrunners spent what should’ve been a lay-up 4th season bungling Jamie’s character arc, bungling Tyrion’s motivations, embarrassingly bungling Bloodraven and Leaf (were those hadoukens?), and cutting out the best ending of any of the books.

    The fact that they are giving interviews trying to explain “no, no, really, the episode is good anyways” just shows you how badly they’ve screwed up….again. And if they can screw up Storm of Swords, they are doomed with Feast/Dance.

  79. tiny direwolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Wow, tact isn’t exactly a string point for Graves.

    Fuck that guy.

    I would say that D&D are downplaying magic and Stark warging (except Bran) across the board but the fireball tossing elf has me all confused…

  80. tiny direwolf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    *strong point

  81. Immi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    I do wish people would speak for themselves instead of broadly saying ‘book readers’. Speaking for my book-reading self, I do not feel disrespected, or slapped in the face, or let down, or any of these things that are apparently meant to be inherent feelings once you’ve looked at some words on paper.

    Currently we have no LS, and maybe we never will. DEAL WITH IT.

  82. Abyss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Maybe… I don’t remember the mood of the interview very well, but the way I took it was more “What? I’m going to play a zombie in later seasons? Not exactly what I signed up for, but we will see…”

  83. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Well they shouldn’t let him do interviews anymore, if you ask me.

  84. Patchy Face
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    So the real question is – does the character really have a meaningful part to play in the outcome of the story – something only GRRM (and maybe D&D) knows. If she is included later, maybe we too will know the answer.

  85. jkb
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Currently we have no LS, and maybe we never will. DEAL WITH IT

    until we know for sure the speculations will continue. deal with it.

  86. Veltigar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    If they get Graves to direct they can just make LS rape some people. That’s what he likes to do right?

  87. Immi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    jkb,

    The speculations have been going on for months and months and months. Does anyone have anything new to say?

  88. Bruna
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    This is gonna sound harsh but the best thing they could do at this point is fire this guy. He already showed himself to be extremelly ignorant after the jamie-cersei debacle, now he’s showing obvious hostility and resentment towards the fans and the souce material.

    The show has had a clear drop in quality this season so if Alex Graves is kept around, which will show he represents how the crew as a whole feels, then I have no reason to keep watching a show I have grown terribly unnatached towards and will clearly only get worst given the current attitude is “Fuck the fans”.

    I’ll do myself a favor and fuck off!

    (I love how high and mighty AG sounds about Lady Stoneheart only serving to kill people. How dare anything take away from the gratuitous rape scenes?)

  89. AnneMarie Bowman
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    First off, they really don’t need Michelle Fairley to include the character of Lady Stoneheart. Think about it, her face is mangled, she’s been in water, her skin and hair are mangled, and she doesn’t speak. all they need is a female actress with the same height, weight and bone structure to pull off this character. Put on a red wig and the dress she died in and there you go.

    The article on EW is irresponsible. It has finally, completely and totally spoiled any suspense or surprise for non-readers for an upcoming plot point, in the case they actually decide to go ahead with the character. and I think they should include this character, as I also feel she is critical to the Brienne/Jaime characters arcs. But we’re also forgetting her resurrection- that scene FIRST establishes Arya’s warging capabilities. And what about the BWB? are we done with them then, never to see them again? All that time establishing them, for what? One season?

    The butterfly effect indeed. excluding LS impacts a quite few storylines, not just one.

    But it seems less likely now, that they ever will include her. and I fear what this means for Jaime and Brienne’s future motivations, character progression, etc. How will they get to ADWD #49 Jaime 1? by making it up themselves as they go along. wouldn’t be easier to just adapt what’s already written?

  90. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Patchy Face:
    So the real question is – doesthe character really have a meaningful part to play in the outcome of the story – something only GRRM (and maybe D&D) knows.If she is included later, maybe we too will know the answer.

    I don’t think there’s a way for her to NOT be important (in the books at least). I think she has already made an important move, in turning Brienne against Jamie- removing her means you have to make significant changes in Brienne and Jamie’s arcs, we haven’t seen that level of deviation in the show before. That’s not to say that the show can’t write around her (for instance making Berric take her place or something) but it wouldn’t be as good in my opinion.

  91. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    I Think it’s funny that when S4 ep2 came out everyone (and I do mean a lot of people) we’re posting how Graves was greatest director and Butter was a nit of a hack…now what the he’ll happened?

    I, personally think they are both excellent directors, and have not been disappointed this season, or any season really- except dat one crowd-surfin’ finale- and can’t wait for next season!

  92. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Bruna,

    He isn’t in season 5.
    They might choose to not call him back after the rape fiasco.

  93. BlackBloc
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Lady Stoneheart in S4 finale would just have been fan service for book readers. People who are going crazy over the idea that LS is “just a zombie” need to realize that if they had put her in the finale, that’s exactly what it would have been to every Unsullied out there. So I fully agree with Alex Graves that it would have been a complete waste of talent.

    If you think LS as a character deserves better than to be Zombie Cat for the majority of the show’s audience, then you should agree that it was best to keep her for when she becomes an important player, just like they pushed Jojen and Meera’s introductions to when they actually started having importance in Bran’s plot. I assume that her bigger scenes in the books are going to be in TWOW so she might only be introduced late S5, early S6.

  94. SilverStormm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Sorry if this has already been said;
    What was the point of introducing the fact that Beric has been resurrected X amount of times if not as a preempt for LS?
    To ‘prove’ the LoL has real powers? We already know that via Mel’s antics.

  95. SillyMammo
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    If no LS, does that mean the Brotherhood with Banners is done too? There really isn’t much for them to do if she’s not around.

  96. Eddard Stark II
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,
    She’s not important to their story yet. I’m 90% sure she’s going to be included in the future.

  97. BlackTalon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    I for one am glad that LS was cut.. she has done absolutley nothing in the books so far that Thoros of Myr couldn’t have done just as well.

    I never cared about LS … nor for Coldhands, either. Both totally lame characters, beyond the shallow creep/shock effect

  98. Bruna
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I really hope that is the case, thanks for the info!

  99. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    I’ve been saying this for a week. LS is not cut. She will appear next season, when her character is needed and has more to do. In my opinion, if she is cut for good, they would come out and say so, as they did with Belwas and Coldhands. Entertainment Weekly can eat a dick, though.

  100. ColdStark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    If LS had been included in the finale, as I was hoping I’ll add, would there be dozens of debates here about why they bothered to include her? Would people be saying that it was pointless to have the scene as we don’t know the significance she will have later on? Maybe, but it would be more insignificant than this current debate. There might be some back and forth and some negativity but I think most of you who now proclaim you don’t like or care about LS wouldn’t be saying that. You’d probably talk about the WAY she was introduced and what the next season will bring, which would be fair game for us all.

    I never expected to get to this point of frustration with the show. There was a heated debate going on about this amongst several book readers at my workplace today, 1 out of 5 of us claimed not to care. The rest of us were upset, simple at that, and mainly because it seems optimism is low that we’ll see her appear now, which I think is fair.

  101. Patchy Face
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    How do we know that Brienne has turned against Jaimie – all we know is that she asks him to go with her somewhere. We have no idea what will happen next.

    (Gah! So tired of having to log in all the time.)

  102. Kris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Don’t blame Michelle Fairley for anything- she is a goddess.

  103. Jen@HouseStark
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Etcetera:
    Jen@House Stark,

    …you’re joking, right? Because this comment really is absurd.

    You don’t even want to go there with me, Ser/Madam

  104. HODORisthenewHODOR
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    And here I thought we would not see LS because Michelle Fairley is the main bad guy on the new season of 24. Not sure whether any actors can do two shows at once.

    My general attitude towards the show is that I really do not mind deviations at all. I like not knowing everything that’s going to happen. Like the death of Jojen… I yelled at the TV… Had no idea that was coming! I’ve made a mental partition between ASOIAF and HBOs GOT

  105. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Oops..Nutter. I don’t think Butters was behind the red wedding :P

  106. Patchy Face
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Love this story (show AND books). People are so passionate.

  107. NewJeffCT
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    To be honest, after thinking about it since 10:06 or so last night, I’m much more disappointed that we didn’t get the exchange between Jamie and Tyrion about Tysha than I am about Lady Stoneheart.

    We can still get Lady Stoneheart next season, and it will still be a “Holy S#!&!!!” moment for unsullied viewers, as well as for Brienne and Pod (or Merrett Frey and Petyr Pimple).

    However, with Tyrion headed to Pentos (with Varys to replace Magister Illyrio?) there will be almost no way for Tyrion to find out the truth about Tysha from Jamie? The harsh exchange gave Tyrion a clean break from both his family and from King’s Landing/Westeros.

  108. Maxwell James
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Sure. I’m just saying that anything he or another director says should be taken as representing B&W at this point, at least until they say otherwise. The buck stops with them.

  109. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I’ve been saying this for a week. LS is not cut. She will appear next season, when her character is needed and has more to do. In my opinion, if she is cut for good, they would come out and say so, as they did with Belwas and Coldhands. Entertainment Weekly can eat a dick, though.

    I think they didn’t make up their mind yet when writing season 4. So they left it open (that’s why they said Cat was thrown in the river, but did zero follow-up on the Stoneheart thing). They didn’t want to start setting up Stoneheart only to cut her in season 5, so they set the story in motion and let their future (season 5) selves deal with it. If they found room for her when mapping the fifth season and they thought it would turn out well, then they’ve included her. If not, no.

    That said, they have to do something with Brienne next year so I definitely think there’s room for her.

  110. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Great, great news. Lady Stoneheart is a seriously overrated part of the story, IMO, and it always left me cold (figuratively). Almost as if GRRM was including fanfic in his own world.

    Let’s just hope Benioff and Weiss stay disciplined, and leave her out entirely.

  111. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Let’s? Really. You are practically asking for people to hate on you. Well done!

  112. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    I love how we were all stoked for The Red Viper fight for years and then the Hound and Brienne just slip in there and win, arguably, best fight of the show..twas intense!

  113. Valaquen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    deekan:
    I Think it’s funny that when S4 ep2 came out everyone (and I do mean a lot of people) we’re posting how Graves was greatest director and Butter was a nit of a hack…now what the he’ll happened?

    Some people in the fandom are very petulant. Graves was the golden boy until Breaker of Chains. The fans tore him down quicker than they propped him up. Now they’re seeing (invented) hostility and arrogance coming from him. It’s a real bummer to see. I’m sure they forget the sheer mind-twisting logistics of filming this series, from hard cash to scheduling. Hundreds of people need to be paid, from cameramen to whoever serves the cast their coffee and hot dogs. The showrunners also know far more than we do. GRRM probably doesn’t know what he wants to do with Stoneheart yet, so they’re biding their time.

    The fact D&D wouldn’t tell Graves if Stoneheart would be in next season says a lot – if she wasn’t, they’d probably put the issue right to bed. Graves won’t be back next year, as he’s already said, so they probably wouldn’t want to share that information with him. They’ll wait until they can get the BWB cast back good and proper and do it all next year. Fairley was also busy with 24, I think, and who knows what else.

    In the meantime the outright hostility coming from book readers is putting me off the communities. Give them what they want and they’ll praise you to the heavens; delay or excise something due to some unknown logistics and they’ll scream bloody murder. I watch the show with some book readers but mostly unsullied. Not a complaint. There are healthier ways to enjoy this show; treating the books as holy scripture is not one of them.

  114. spookyfork
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Now that GRRM is considering 3 more books, and his given track record with sticking to plots and details, there’s too much left open for D&D to go full steam ahead with considering all of those details. We’ve already been told that leave Garlan and Willas out of the show will land them in hot water in future seasons.

  115. Trav
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    I think the fact that Graves said he can’t get an answer from D&D on whether LS will EVER be included, is a good indicator that she WILL be

    They’re saving her for next season. Probably early into it, as well, so they can introduce her at the end of an episode, but then have more meaningful scenes with here as the season goes on. Including the tale of her origin

    I would have liked to have seen her already, but given the amount of HUGE goings on they had to jam in to this season, and the lack there-of for next season, I can see why they would want to hold off

  116. Vyse
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    He makes a great point at first saying how hard adapting a book series such as this is. He is 100% correct about the show runners not getting enough credit about that.

    However, any good will is wasted by belittling LS’s role in the series. Really hope they are not cutting this entirely, and hope GRRM didn’t bring her back that way in the books for no reason.

  117. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    This is the reason LS will be included. She won’t be included because she is a great character or because she hangs a couple of low level Freys. No, she will be included because Brienne and eventually Jaime’s story is dependent on her inclusion. What the hell is Brienne going to do if she doesn’t run into LS? She’s not going to find Sansa, and Arya is gone from Westeros. Will they simply pair her back up with Jaime and write a cheesy fanfiction love story between them? I doubt it. And I don’t believe D&D ever intended to include LS in season 4. Alex Graves said as much in this interview.

  118. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    He’s a great director. Just not great in interviews, apparently. He wasn’t outright hostile to anyone, but he came off rather ignorant here- don’t you think?

    And, yeah, I think Stoneheart will show up later on. It will be nice to have D&D just lay it bare, though.

  119. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    I just fear for the next scapegoat/victim of their insanity…

    “every clever little twat with a mouth” – Alliser Thorne 300 AL

  120. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Exactly. They told themselves “We’ll deal with this in season 5.” and made no attempt to confirm or deny it in season 4.

  121. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    spookyfork:
    Now that GRRM is considering 3 more books, and his given track record with sticking to plots and details, there’s too much left open for D&Dto go full steam ahead with considering all of those details.We’ve already been told that leave Garlan and Willas out of the show will land them in hot water in future seasons.

    Lol, GRRM will say anything at this point to not lose relevance as the show keeps coming closer (and will surpass the books by next season).
    Mark my words: Garlan and Willas will be as important to the story as Coldhands, Mago, Strong Belwas and Quentyn Martell =zero importance.

  122. Sparty54
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Jen@House Stark,

    I feel the same way. Would have been such a good way to end the show.

  123. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Really, I don’t mind most changes at all! I didn’t mind Hound v Brienne or any other change they made. I just really, really hate THIS particular change. I loved the plot twist in the epilogue and it was one of the scenes I had been looking forward to for years. Hating one change doesn’t make a person whiny, immature, etc or mean that they think the books are perfect and the show is awful. I generally like the show I just hated the exclusion of this scene.

  124. Steel_Wind
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Except LS is much more than a murderous zombie. She is critical to Brienne and Jaime’s character arc. I hope we see her in season 5

    She is not, because they are changing their character arcs. Jaime is headed south to Dorne.

    Brienne – we have no idea what she’s up to.

    Deal with it.

  125. Eor!
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind: She is not, because they are changing their character arcs. Jaime is headed south to Dorne.

    Do you have any reason to believe this?

  126. Amy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Sorry, but the plot for Catelyn Stark was out as far as LS when Michelle Fairley signed for the show. If she didn’t want to play such an important part of her role, she shouldn’t have played Catelyn at all (which would be a shame, because I loved her as Catelyn).

  127. GeekFurious
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    I think this is the last season that will stick reasonably close to the books. From here on in, it’s going to be the D&D homage to a story by GRRM show.

  128. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    I think this is the last season that will stick reasonably close to the books. From here on in, it’s going to be the D&D homage to a story by GRRM show.

    And future books will be the novelization of the HBO show, hehehe.

    Eor!: Do you have any reason to believe this?

    Yeah, there was a video of an actress auditioning for the part of a sand snake. Her dialogue included a mention of Jaime being in Dorne.

  129. Trilambdas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Seriously, that was probably, the biggest and most awesome episode of TV I’ve ever seen! Why is anyone griping about a minor character not being there? There’s no letdown here people, look at this season’s arc. I don’t see LS being needed here, but next season as Brienne is searching for Sansa or Arya still, I can see Brienne being caught and then making a new oath (I still think she screams Jaime while being hung). Why are people so quick to feel entitled? The show is great, enjoy the TV show as the TV show and the books as the books. They are separate, BUT D&D are keeping the show’s theme in line with the books. It’s not like they’re going Stackhouse on us. D&D have only made the best show on TV and it happens to be based on some of the best books of the past 20 years, so I get it, but at the same time, be thankful that its on TV! I watch with a ton of unsullied and they can’t get enough of this show. Plus, are you really worried they’re cutting LS, just take a second and think, they had Children of the Forest blowing up zombies with fireballs people! And they bring season 1, 2 crap back all the time, subtle references here, reminders there. Don’t you get it, they’re trolling you. Plus, the hound was just sitting there begging for death… And do we forget, there’s mediums for awesome cool announcements like this, it’s called Comic-Con!! Speculate and worry all you want, ’tis your right! Me, I’m just going to rewatch this season, love it and soak it all in and then beg time to speed forward to next April.

    In Cogman, Gold, D&D, and GRRM I trust.

  130. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Eor!: Do you have any reason to believe this?

    Video auditions (Tyenne and Obara) as well as leaks published by this site(Obara will fight a series regular) pretty much confirm that we will see Jaime and and Bronn going to Dorne next season

  131. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    We’ve had a recent string of great news for show and book fans alike. Confirmation that we’ll be getting a lot of Dorne (including the Sand Snakes and Doran), and now news (though short of confirmation) that Lady Stoneheart is likely to be excluded, which if it holds, could prevent a possible firestorm of “jumped the shark” criticism (which would be well-deserved, IMO.)

    Now all we need is confirmation that Euron is in (and hopefully Victarion), and I’ll be happy!

  132. ML
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Could this be a sign that LS does not play a major role in future novels?

  133. Alex
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    It truly amazes me that Alex Graves seems so baffled that the large majority of the fans was expecting to watch and would rather watch a zombie woman who has been brought back to life to take revenge against the ones who wronged her and her family than gratuitous rape scenes.

    Fans are always quick to tell other fans to stop watching a show when they start demanding different things to happen. I’d like to ask Mr. Graves to stop working on the show if his proclivities are so opposite to the source material.

  134. NewJeffCT
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Amy:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Sorry, but the plot for Catelyn Stark was out as far as LS when Michelle Fairley signed for the show. If she didn’t want to play such an important part of her role, she shouldn’t have played Catelyn at all (which would be a shame, because I loved her as Catelyn).

    There is plenty of precedent for actors doing two shows at once, especially since LS would have amounted to a cameo this season, and maybe 2-3 cameos next season.

    Additionally, 24 was only a half-season this year, and not a full 24 episodes.

  135. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Lady Stoneheart isn’t nearly as bad as shadow babies,Ice Zombies, and Children Of The Forest throwing fire bombs. And she is still going to be included in the show.

  136. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    We’ve had a recent string of great news for show and book fans alike. Confirmation that we’ll be getting a lot of Dorne (including the Sand Snakes and Doran), and now news (though short of confirmation) that Lady Stoneheart is likely to be excluded, which if it holds, could prevent a possible firestorm of “jumped the shark” criticism (which would be well-deserved, IMO.)

    Now all we need is confirmation that Euron is in (and hopefully Victarion), and I’ll be happy!

    It’s not fair to speak for everyone at the beginning – it’s all your opinion. I personally will be VERY disappointed if LS is cut since I loved that plot twist. If you didn’t like it, fine, but don’t group all book readers together as if they share your opinion when they obviously don’t. I don’t care a whole lot about what you want in since I’m not a big fan of the Iron Islands plot line, just as you don’t care for LS, but you have a right to your opinion.

  137. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Alex:
    It truly amazes me that Alex Graves seems so baffled that the large majority of the fans was expecting to watch and would rather watch a zombie woman who has been brought back to life to take revenge against the ones who wronged her and her family than gratuitous rape scenes.

    Fans are always quick to tell other fans to stop watching a show when they start demanding different things to happen. I’d like to ask Mr. Graves to stop working on the show if his proclivities are so opposite to the source material.

    Lol, are you serious? As if you were representing the “large majority of the fans”. Take a chill pill and deal with it.

  138. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Dorne without Arianne is bitter sweet. Like a gift smeared in shit. I’ll take my Doran, though.

  139. Rebecca
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    We’ve had a recent string of great news for show and book fans alike. Confirmation that we’ll be getting a lot of Dorne (including the Sand Snakes and Doran), and now news (though short of confirmation) that Lady Stoneheart is likely to be excluded, which if it holds, could prevent a possible firestorm of “jumped the shark” criticism (which would be well-deserved, IMO.)

    Now all we need is confirmation that Euron is in (and hopefully Victarion), and I’ll be happy!

    You can say it’s good news for yourself but you can’t speak for others, yet you pretend to speak for all book readers. I personally was looking forward to the LS scene for years and am very let down. Meanwhile I really don’t care about the plot you hope to see because just as you don’t care for LS, I have never cared for the Iron Islands plot very much. But you have the right to your opinion and I won’t pretend to speak for you so maybe show others the same respect?

  140. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Just as Coppola elevated Puzo’s rather average Godfather books (at least with Godfather I and II) Benioff and Weiss are dramatically elevating (and improving on) GRRM’s rather average set of books (with books 1-3 being very much above average). The show is pulling ahead of the books not just in timeline, but in quality as well. And it’s likely that the adaptations of book 4 and 5 will be much better on screen, as those are basically very forgettable stories.

    If only Lord of the Rings could have gotten such an intelligent treatment…

  141. James Shaker
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    I guess Alex Graves hasn’t read the books. Lady Stoneheart is out for vengeance, man. She looks like a zombie but knows exactly what she’s doing, and that’s wiping out Freys and Lannisters! “….be a zombie for a little while and kill people?” Yeah lets not do that, let’s tease Yara Greyjoy going off to save Theon…….only to show up in one episode, storm the dreadfort, defeat Ramsey Snow’s men, and NOT DRAG THEON OUT OF THERE!?!?! OR AT LEAST KILL RAMSEY SNOW FOR MESSING UP HER BROTHER!?!?!

    Yeah Lady Stoneheart would have been ridiculous, but man those 1984 Terminator 1 animated skeletons popping up out of the snow…..they were awesome.

  142. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Rebecca: You can say it’s good news for yourself but you can’t speak for others, yet you pretend to speak for all book readers. I personally was looking forward to the LS scene for years and am very let down. Meanwhile I really don’t care about the plot you hope to see because just as you don’t care for LS, I have never cared for the Iron Islands plot very much. But you have the right to your opinion and I won’t pretend to speak for you so maybe show others the same respect?

    Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.

    Thought that was implied, but I will attempt to be clearer in the future!

  143. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Rebecca,

    He is a master troll, Rebecca. Prancing into a thread where everyone (barring a couple of oddities) want to see LS in the show… and then saying “Let’s hope they really cut her”. I bow to him. Absolutely amazing trolling right there.

  144. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    James Shaker:
    I guess Alex Graves hasn’t read the books. Lady Stoneheart is out for vengeance, man. She looks like a zombie but knows exactly what she’s doing, and that’s wiping out Freys and Lannisters! “….be a zombie for a little while and kill people?”

    But that’s what she does. Hangs a bunch of random Freys and Lannisters.
    Knows exactly what she’s doing? Yeah, hanging the only character that was ever loyal to her.

  145. NewJeffCT
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Now all we need is confirmation that Euron is in (and hopefully Victarion), and I’ll be happy!

    Has there been any indication that we’re getting anything from the Iron Islands next season? I’m thinking we could have Yara stand in for both Euron and Victarian.

    When they published the list of new characters coming for season 4, it was fairly complete… they did the same a few weeks back for Season 5 and there was no mention of the Ironborn on there. They’ve mentioned Prince Doran and Dorne several times, but no mention on the show of Euron, Aeron or Victarian.

  146. Alex
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Sorry dude, I just like to imagine people like you and Alex Graves who’d rather watch women being raped than Lady Stoneheart storyline are in the minority. My bad! Sorry but accepting any pill from you sounds really fishy after your comment.

  147. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Lady Stoneheart isn’t nearly as bad as shadow babies,Ice Zombies, and Children Of The Forest throwing fire bombs. And she is still going to be included in the show.

    She is worse, because those are creatures of myth and legend (and as the mythical and legendary periphery encroaches on the mundane center, we will see more and more of them). Catelyn Stark is a woman. A main character who had a family, and who was tragically murdered. Now her children are trying to make their way in the world.

    Bringing her back does injury to the sense of mortality among these characters, and makes us question the stakes.

    I am all for the fantasy elements of the stories. But I am opposed to the resurrection of main characters.

    However, as magic grows in its power and influence in Westeros, perhaps it will fit in better. But I would argue that would need to be next season or the season after, so as to coincide with other magic-infused events.

    IMO, of course. Feel free to feel betrayed for the next year or so – I can’t stop you from feeling that way.

  148. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    NewJeffCT,

    Someone who works on transporting GoT crew (and is also a GoT location guide that shows people around the Ireland locations) said some place was the set for the Kingsmoot. It isn’t verified, though.

  149. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Alex:
    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Sorry dude, I just like to imagine people like you and Alex Graves who’d rather watch women being raped than Lady Stoneheart storyline are in the minority. My bad! Sorry but accepting any pill from you sounds really fishy after your comment.

    Haha, whatever floats your boat, dude. Keep asking for Graves to be fired, see how it works for you.

  150. Tenesmus
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    I am now more convinced that they will somehow incorporate the Blackfish into some sort of role with the Brotehrhood and the revenge/Brienne/Jaime arc. They don’t need a zombie, when they can make do with a trout.

  151. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Tenesmus,

    Surprisingly, I would not be opposed to the Blackfish taking over Lady Stonehearts role. If Michelle Fairley truly does not want to come back as Graves hinted she wouldn’t, then I prefer this alternative. What was the point of Lena Headeys’s Instagram pick though? Was she just trying to troll is or did she read the season 5 script that features Lady Stoneheart?

  152. Melanie
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Myk:
    I’m glad she wasn’t included this season and that the whole part with Tysha was dropped. No one that hasnt read the books would have any idea who that is or have any interest invested at all in a character who they’ve never seen and has been mentioned once.For the most part book readers seem to be under the misconception that this show is strictly for them and not a much wider audience.
    I’m also glad that the people who constantly cry because a story that was written to be unfilmable isn’t exactly like the books obviously won’t continue watching and none of us fans will have to waste time reading their bullshit on here next season.

    Well said! It is ridiculous the comments on every forum from book readers. I’ve read all the books but still enjoy the show all the same. I won’t miss Tyrion asking “Where do whores go?” all next season. And I was happy that Jaime and Tyrion left on a good note. LS might be in it and might not. Either way it is entertaining and fun to see the characters adapted on television.

  153. Cary Storm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    You are so wicked. You need to come chat with us today. I saw that you were around last week.

  154. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Dorne without Arianne is bitter sweet. Like a gift smeared in shit. I’ll take my Doran, though.

    Are we sure she’s not in?

    If not, there will have to be serious changes (particularly regarding the Queen-maker plot). Perhaps we just stick with the Sand Snakes, and give some of Arianne’s actions to one (or more) of them.

    But frankly, Arianne is a rather uninteresting character to me. The female seductress trope, which could come off as very “broad” on screen, is not something I want to see play out over a whole season or more.

    Mostly, if the rumors are true, I am excited to be going to southern Spain and seeing some Moorish architecture. Very excited about this culture.

    However, despite my recently-acquired label as a show apologist, I will be quite disappointed if Euron is omitted, and if we don’t get the Kingsmoot (and Damphair, who’s an evocative character). The Kingsmoot would be such a visually glorious scene, and I hope the rumors of HBO already having chosen a location for it are true. I can live with no Victarion, but the Iron Islands are my “Viking fix” in this world, and I need that primordial, “dark age” thrust in an otherwise rather late-medieval story.

  155. James Shaker
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Hey I agree with you, LS is messed up. But that’s what makes her such a great character. She’s pure vengeance. A role that switches morality and physical appearance, and gets a cool new name too. Plus all the casual fans know her well from the Red Wedding episode. People would love to see her come back and kick some ass with the brotherhood. She was awesome in the books and would have been awesome in the show!

  156. moonlightof1982
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    If Graves can’t see the importance of Lady Stoneheart, then he doesn’t need to be apart of GOT. It’s as simple as that!

  157. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Tenesmus,

    What was the point of Lena Headeys’s Instagram pick though? Was she just trying to troll is or did she read the season 5 script that features Lady Stoneheart?

    Lol, you people are trying to read too much into an Instagram picture, as if Lena Headey couldn’t just made a heart made of little stones just for the sake of it, without meaning to troll or to hint at anything.
    There are also pictures of her hands and feet, FFS.

  158. Tenesmus
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I think at a minimum the BF will be the one to pull Cat out of the water if there is going to be an UnCat; otherwise we just catch up with BF leading the Brotherhood on revenge killings

  159. Valdred Dethstorm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    James Shaker:
    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Hey I agree with you, LS is messed up. But that’s what makes her such a great character. She’s pure vengeance. A role that switches morality and physical appearance, and gets a cool new name too. Plus all the casual fans know her well from the Red Wedding episode. People would love to see her come back and kick some ass with the brotherhood. She was awesome in the books and would have been awesome in the show!

    Fair enough <3

  160. TheBlackFlame
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    I hope you guys understand how mega-hilariously ironic 95% of your posts in this thread are. I recognize a bunch of names of people who told me to “just get over it the show is not the books” when I complained about stuff in season two they changed. Turns out its just like I said then, you guys are only going to say that until they mess with something you like.

    That being said I am personally thrilled to be spared a season and a half of “where do whores go?” The whole Tysha plot twist always seemed kinda corny and tacked on to me. As far as Lady Stoneheart goes I’ll tell you what you told me. Get over it. The whole thing was just a plot contrivance to get Brienne from A to B in the first place anyway.

  161. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    Also, kudos to Graves for speaking to fans’ concerns. Yesterday, a number of disappointed people were stating that the show-runners could at least address whether or not LS in is, and it looks like Graves has been trying to get a definitive answer to that (begging, it sounds like). So good on him. He at least seems to understand that fans would like some certainty on such frustrating questions.

    While I am eagerly awaiting confirmation that LS has been cut, I can understand that others are attached to zombie Cat, and are hoping for the opposite. But if you’re looking for purist justice from HBO, you may have come to the wrong place!

  162. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    moonlightof1982:
    If Graves can’t see the importance of Lady Stoneheart, then he doesn’t need to be apart of GOT. It’s as simple as that!

    No, it’s not as simple as that.

  163. Gatsby
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Give Graves a break regarding his comment. He’s just a messenger. At least he directly addressed the issue.

    I was upset SH wasn’t in too, but I prepared myself for this possibility since the beginning of the season, so it didn’t hit as hard. I’m also happy that the unsullied really enjoyed this finale. Yeah, they don’t know what they missed, but there was plenty there to love.

    If they do include Lady SH in the show, it makes the most sense to introduce her when they can condense her character arc into one season. That way they only have to pay Michelle for one season as opposed to 2 – 3, the audience wouldn’t feel cheated by having a resurrected Stark appear in only one scene per season, and so that Michelle would get the screen time an actress of her caliber deserves.

  164. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Wow! Finally! Direct confirmation.

    Sorry Stoneheart fans.

    Ok, time to start second-guessing the showrunners. (By people who nave never written TV shows before, much less adapt a project as huge as GoT)

    See ya!

  165. Ryoko Masaki
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    I am not surprised at all that LS wasn’t in this season. For one, there was enough supernatural stuff in the last two episodes already. The last thing you want is to confuse the regular (non-book-reader) with a skeleton/zombie attack on Bran and then have his mom show up at the end as a “zombie like” person.

    Also remember, if they show LS this season, they have to remind everyone who the Brotherhood is and show those characters again.

    I think LS will show up in episode 1 or 2 season 5. That is where she belongs. The “previously on” can show the Brotherhood and can have them talk about Beric’s resurrections again. Then they can have LS kill some Frey’s.

    Most importantly, I see no reason why they need to have mutilate her like they did in the book. I think they could give her the scar and perhaps make her a bit pailer, but they don’t need to make her bloated and torn and they certainly don’t need to leave a hole in her neck. This will let Michelle Fairley really play out the vengeful mother role instead of the horrible monster role.

    IMHO

  166. Cary Storm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Fairley sure she’ll be back (see what I did there?). Why else have Thoros bring Beric back in Season 3 if they were only going to leave it there? Not that I’m heavily invested in this, but it makes some sense that they’ll need that information later on.

  167. JP Dayne
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    confirmed cut, then.
    I stopped caring at season 2, anyway.

  168. Alex
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    moonlightof1982,

    Alas, apparently that’s a concept too complex for some people. Possibly the same people who complain about other fans’ “whinning” about the show while defending Alex Grave’s whinning in regards to the souce material.

  169. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    Rebecca,

    He is a master troll, Rebecca. Prancing into a thread where everyone (barring a couple of oddities) want to see LS in the show… and then saying “Let’s hope they really cut her”. I bow to him. Absolutely amazing trolling right there.

    I thank you for the complement. However, it is undeserved and misplaced. I am no troll. I was actually under the impression that a lot of ASOIAF fans hate the LS storyline, but I guess I was wrong! In any event, I’m not the one calling those who disagree with the inclusion of LS “oddities.” I feel that the intolerance, in this case, is coming from the LS fans. Just because you love vengeance-seeking zombie Cat, if doesn’t mean that others (including Graves) are stupid (or heretics) for not liking that element of the story.

    I do believe, however, that most LS fans mythologize how great she is in the books. It’s a minor part of the story, and poorly-sketched, IMO. If she wasn’t in the books, and the showrunners created her, there would be a firestorm of criticism. “Zombie Cat??? Are they insane!!! This show has finally gone off the rails!”

    In any event, if she has been permanently cut, I think Benioff and Weiss would have confirmed it by now. So she’s still a possibility. But for those who don’t like LS, and for those who are in the closet (and secretly hate the character – I know there are a lot of you out there!) here’s to hoping LS is cut.

    For me, it’s been a great past few weeks. Great episodes, and great news regarding changes that I would have made myself. It’s a good time to be a fan of this show, and a bad time to be a fan of minor characters from the books.

    So please, Euron confirmation. Soon…

  170. Linda
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Amazing. There’s “no time” to do the stuff that IS in the book, but freaking tons of time to waste on things that were NOT in the book. Take the crap out of the story that never HAPPENED in the story and wow, you might have the time for the stuff that DID happen. The attitude and arrogance reeks of “We know better than you the fans so shut up and watch.” We the fans are the ones who spend the money on the books and on HBO. Never forget that.

  171. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I seem to recall in the beginning she was fascinated about the character after the red wedding. I understand moving motivations and switching actions to other characters to avoid casting more characters in order to simplify the cast and avoid creating more confusion. But the resurrection was already introduced with Beric. And Stoneheart is a character and actress the audience already is familiar with. I can understand pushing her until next season, but I don’t see why they would bother making all those changes just to avoid a character. I’m fine with changes as long as they stay true to the spirit of the story. If you are going to skip Stoneheart, why bother with the story about the white rat cook? Why bother with resurrecting Beric? Why bother including the importance of sharing bread and salt offering protecting by Lord Frey? So much should have been left out if they were going to skip Stoneheart. For me, skipping over Stoneheart wouldn’t be true to the spirit of the story.

    I’m sure we will see her next season.

  172. J Fred
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    I just reread the epilogue and I think that material would be a good opening scene for the next season. There was so much going on in the children it wound not have got the attention it deserved. I think it would work best as the opening scene to next season then after they reveal Catlyn’s face they go to the opening credits.

    I though last nights episode was one of the best hours I have ever seen on TV. It was better shot than most movies. This show just gets better and better.

  173. Ray F
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    sati,

    Oh let it go already. Re-read the scene in the books it was consistent with that.

    I am amazed at the arrogance of some people insisting THEY know better what was intended rather than the artists ( writer, director, actors) actually involved in the scene. Perhaps you should consider that rather than him being an “Idiot” ( which he is far from being) that perhaps your perception ( and many others) isn’t nuanced enough to grasp the subtleties of the scene.

    If anything they were guilty of not dumbing down the scene enough for the lowest common denominator like adding some trite line of her saying “yes” I for one am glad they play to a more intelligent audience.

  174. Ingólfr
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    Pretty much everything you said. The large, obnoxiously vocal segment of book readers who watch this show act like entitled brats. They want exactly what they want, and if you don’t give it to them, then you’re incompetent and an idiot and should be fired. Because clearly, their ability to read words in a book make them 100% qualified to judge the directors and the producers who have to deal with the labyrinthine reality of adapting and creating a ten hour movie every year. I’m sure if you just put one “true fan” in charge of the series it would be “perfect”. It would also probably have been canceled after the second season, if not the first.

    I also see the word “character arc” getting tossed around a lot. But I’m starting to get the sense not everyone actually knows what in the hells that even is. Just because something happens to a character does not mean that event is part of their Character Arc unless it tangibly leads to a change in that character’s personality of motivations. Jamie losing a hand is part of his Character Arc, Jamie pushing Bran out the window was arguably not (Since he did not seem to give a rat’s plague ridden ass). There is a difference between character and story arcs, and it annoys me when they are confused.

    Also, there is no reason to include something that will only lead to even more unsullied confusion when you can just as easily replace it with something serving the exact same purpose. How is Tysha at all relevant to the story at the moment? Aside from being the source of Tyrion’s post-escape depression? The fact Tyrion loved Shae, was doubly betrayed by her, and then killed her with his own hands, is a much more elegant solution to why he is depressed, and one that more viewers will understand. If Tysah ever does become relevant (which I doubt) and Tyrion ever does find her (which would almost certainly be by accident), then she can just tell him the truth herself, and by one road or another, we’ll end up in exactly the same place.

    People really, REALLY need to stop ascending every last minor plot development to the level of a major linchpin that cannot be possibly be deviated from without it somehow “destroying” the series. People need to just accept the fact already that just because it happens in the books does not make it even a tiny bit relevant to the main story until it DOES become relevant. Just like how the Reeds were irrelevant to the story, until they weren’t, and were subsequently included.

  175. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Ryoko Masaki:
    I am not surprised at all that LS wasn’t in this season. For one, there was enough supernatural stuff in the last two episodes already.The last thing you want is to confuse the regular (non-book-reader) with a skeleton/zombie attack on Bran and then have his mom show up at the end as a “zombie like” person.

    Remember how creepy the White Walker-Samwell scene was? The Bran-Hodor-Meera-Jojen scene outside the Bloodraven’s lair should have been even creepier. That’s my main gripe with the episode. Going Harryhausen-action, instead of mysterious and horror-inducing.

  176. Zack
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad it wasn’t included.

    But I would be disappointed if it never happens. It just seems like a story thread that can be saved for later, when plot dictates she’ll have more to do.

  177. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Ye gads.

    I believe there are a lot of people here really acting like entitled brats. It makes these post-episode conversations really depressing as people jump to ridiculous conclusions about what “should” have happened despite the work the showrunners have done to bring a passion of so many of us to life. The show and books are two different things.

    They may include LS eventually like a lot of us want (and admittedly, I was hoping to see her too, but I really appreciated them going out on a somewhat hopeful note, leaving us with Arya sailing off to new pastures, and when you think about it, Sansa’s “ending” scene in Ep 8 with her “Shall we go down?” moment that point to new directions for our favorite Stark children.) It would make sense to have Fairley available for 3 episodes in Season 5 rather than the WTF moment (which again, I’d have loved) because it strengthens the narrative structure, just as they delayed the Reeds until needed, left Styr till Season 4 and left out the Dontos/Sansa “Florian and Jonquil” nonsense.

    It defeats the enjoyment from the show to see everyone go all comic-book-store guy on the show every week. The show is going to continue to diverge from the books in certain ways as they have to get more creative with adaptation, and so people need to get used to it. GRRM put a lot of good stuff in AFFC/ADWD but there’s quite a bit that’s not essential, either, and he strands several characters for a LONG, LONG TIME – Bran, Sansa, Brienne, Jaime – and that’s going to have to be dealt with. They’ve done some great creative stuff that has helped this – the Brienne/Hound fight is really brilliant, and it’s so difficult to watch for that reason – and not everything has been great (Yara Greyjoy really gave up too quick).

    That’s not say they’re perfect – the Breaker of Chains scene was very, very damaging, I don’t think they did the best job with Qhorin Halfhand, and a few other things here and there. But in the end, marking everything off with checkboxes makes for a thoroughly depressing experience, and that can’t be much fun.

    Perhaps many people need a break from these boards for a while. I know I do.

  178. Joe
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Douches a lot of douches, literally douches are coming

  179. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Linda,

    Sup, Linda! One question. How do you know what “actually happened” if you haven’t read ASOS?

  180. Fuelpagan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    The power has already been introduced with Lord Beric. Lady Stoneheart doesn’t cheapen death any more than what has already been introduced. I suspect this power will be used again for another character as well. The argument that Stoneheart somehow cheapens mortality is a false conclusion given how the ability has already been introduced into the story. If Lady Stoneheart causes this problem then the power should never have been introduced at all.

  181. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    NewJeffCT: However, with Tyrion headed to Pentos (with Varys to replace Magister Illyrio?) there will be almost no way for Tyrion to find out the truth about Tysha from Jamie? The harsh exchange gave Tyrion a clean break from both his family and from King’s Landing/Westeros.

    Andrew: But it’s nothing compared to the lack of Tysha in Tyrion’s ending. The scene with Jaime could have been emmy material, and it motivates both of their actions from that point onwards.

    And this I don’t feel is quite as essential. The Jaime conversation, maybe I can get behind that. But they’re both deeply flawed people, and I think Tyrion knows now he’ll never see his brother again.

    But as for Tysha and Tywin? I don’t think Tyrion really needs more motivation to break from his family and kill his father. Tysha is but one moment in all of that. It was a way of getting some closure, or keeping score, in the book, and the Shae moment does it all the same. It’s not about Shae or Tysha in the end, but Tywin’s fundamental lack of regard for his son. Dinklage played it great, and I think that ended well.

    (As for Illyrio, I think we’ll still see him. People seem to keep forgetting that Varys disappeared for the entirely of AFFC/ADWD. He went *somewhere*. Why not across the narrow sea where he already has friends?

  182. Wrath of the Gods
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Lady Stone heart is NOT just some zombie going around killing people. To say that would bebe like saying that Beric was just some zombie going around killing people. She’s been ressurected but shes not a wight

    This is just a huge disappointment.

  183. Kelly
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    I was actually pleased with the lack of LS. I’m a book reader who doesn’t care for the character and what Catelyn’s resurrection as LS undid her heroic ending at the Red Wedding. It’s too much of a fantasy trope to have a character who died heroically in tragic circumstances to come back from the dead and avenge their loss.

    I can understand why B&W felt that having Michelle Fairley come back and spent hours getting makeup and prosthetics for a small cameo appearance was unnecessary. If it had been just an appearance and no spoken lines, a stand in viewed from a distance would have been fine. The similar situations would be the appearance of Elsa seen from the back in this past season finale of Once Upon a Time or the first season finale of Alias where Irina makes her first appearance with no lines and a stand in was used instead of Lena Olin.

    If she does make an appearance, which is more likely towards the end of next season, it may be proceeded by someone killing Freys and the mystery of the Frey slayer.

  184. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    ColdStark:


    That is a disturbingly lazy and over-simplified way to dismiss an important character in this story. A polarising character too, yes. But I hope that isn’t an insight into the discussions he had with them about this (I think it is sadly). People are becoming very defensive over this which is fine, but I can’t see how any rational person can say that LS is insignificant or that her absence in an adaptation isn’t an important issue to be debated. To describe her as ‘a Zombie that goes around killing people’ is just ridiculous.

    So, my friend, what else would you have Stoneheart do? We don’t know her storyline from here on out. Only George and D&D know. I can understand fans’ disappointment, but guys, they are the showrunners. They’re huge fans of the writing. Don’t we all think they want to make the best adaptation possible? I know it’s subjective. I don’t know, man. I trust the showrunners. Do they do some things I disagree with? Sure, but I think the director makes a valid point about what Stoneheart’s motivation would be.

  185. Atomix
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    There is something more unforgivable omitted from this season. Wolf Dreams. Even if we arent getting the Wolf Dream that led to LSH – the Wolf Dreams are what connects the Stark Characters. Grounds them. And the inclusion of a single solitary Wolf Dream from Arya this season could have opened up next season to the Great Pack and set the stage for keeping her connected through what she is going to go through in the next few seasons. Ive spent three seasons solid just waiting for Arya to have a Wolf Dream. Waiting for Jon to see through Ghost’s eyes.

  186. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    I remember reading an interview with GRRM a while back in which he said he would’ve cut Stoneheart out of the story if he could go back and do it again. I could be misremembering that. But I’m pretty sure he said it.

    And based on Graves’ dismissal of the character, as if it would be embarrassing for an actress like Michelle Fairley to play, doesn’t bode too well for her inclusion in the future.

    Her purpose, in my opinion, is to represent the “White Fawn” in Jamie’s story arc. Part of Jamie’s story runs parallel to Arthur Dayne — the Sword of the Morning — and he was famous for defeating the Kingswood Brotherhood & the Smiling Knight. But the “White Fawn”, who was the only female member of the KB, escaped. So, if I’m right about that, then Jamie & Brienne will defeat the BWB, kill Thoros — the Smiling Knight — (who has grown disillusioned with LS) and drive Stoneheart back towards Winterfell. Whether she hangs Pod or not is anyone’s guess.

    But since the Kingswood Brotherhood hasn’t been mentioned, it might not be as important to the story — especially if I’m remembering that aforementioned GRRM interview correctly.

    What surprised me most was Tysha, because they had gone out of their way to explain that story in season 1, when Tyrion was playing the drinking game with Shae & Bronn. And, I believe they had mentioned her several times after that as well, even during the current season, if I’m not mistaken.

    Whether or not they didn’t think non-book readers would remember her is beside the point. Because, even if they didn’t include her specifically, I’m surprised Tyrion left Jamie on good terms. There was no falling out between them. And, whether that plays into the end game or not, it definitely changes the tone of Tyrion’s character arc. Granted, I can understand why they wouldn’t have wanted Tyrion walking around Essos asking everyone “Where do whores go?”, given all the flak they getting for being misogynistic already. But to avoid the entire issue was a strange choice, to say the least.

    Don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but I was also expecting to see Melisandre blow Orell’s eagle out of the sky with a fireball. But I suppose that would’ve connected her to the CotF, since they were shooting fireballs out of their hands at the wights. Granted, I theorize that the two are connected, but giving Melisandre CotF-like powers, right before we meet the CotF who use the same powers, would’ve been a little too obvious.

    As for Arya — my only problem with the Brienne/Hound fight was that it dwarfed the continent of Westeros. The fact that Brienne had already reached the Eyrie makes it seem like Westeros is the size of South Dakota, instead of South America. But, they’ve been doing a lot of that (LF jumping around the continent so quickly comes to mind), so I guess it’s not a big deal. And, clearly, Brienne & the Hound’s stories are connected, given the fact she sees him at the Quiet Isle, so I figure D&D know what they’re doing.

    Overall, I liked the season. I can understand some of the changes they’ve made, and am a little more baffled by others, but it hasn’t ruined it for me. Not in the slightest. It’s such a massive undertaking, I can only imagine the logistics of plotting it all out. And, more so than anything, they’ve brought the books, and the entire genre into prominence. There was a time when critics scoffed at books & shows like this. But now it’s become a cultural phenomenon… thanks in no small part to D&D’s efforts. And even book-purists should be able to respect that.

  187. Immi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    Kelly,

    I uh, wouldn’t say murdering an innocent was too heroic. I mean bad circumstances all round and all, but I’d have said that was the birth of Stoneheart as opposed the actual resurrection. To me at least, LS isn’t a positive character, she’s vengeful insanity in a form.

  188. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Fuelpagan:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    The power has already been introduced with Lord Beric. Lady Stoneheart doesn’t cheapen death any more than what has already been introduced. I suspect this power will be used again for another character as well. The argument that Stoneheart somehow cheapens mortality is a false conclusion given how the ability has already been introduced into the story. If Lady Stoneheart causes this problem then the power should never have been introduced at all.

    Beric is a secondary character, and as of now, seemingly the only character that can be resurrected (apart from the wights by the White Walkers). This is similar to Gandalf in LOTR. There’s no sense that anyone but him could emerge from death.

    If the idea that multiple people can be resurrected takes shape, I think it can seriously lower the stakes in this world.

    Beric is fine. Not great, but fine. LS is bad for the story, IMO.

  189. Linda
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I’ve read ALL of the books, the first three twice. You?

  190. Lex
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Although Alex Graves has done some amazing work (tonight had some fantastic scenes, especially Brienne/The Hound), and could have been one of the best directors GOT has ever seen… he’s screwed a few things up, and overall I’m not a big fan.

    First there was the “rape” thing, and now this exclusion of LS and Tysha. Maybe not crucial, but definitely disappointing. I also didn’t like Tyrion’s beetle-crushing monologue AT ALL in episode 8.

    I also dislike his tendency to overhype his episodes before they air (“It’s the best thing we’ve ever done, it will blow everyone away”). That leads to disappointment. And then there’s his casual way of doing interviews afterwards, where he brushes it all aside.

    So overall, I’m glad he’s not returning next year.

  191. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Is that a joke? Change her bloody up then. Make her more than some zombie. Use her to show the true tragedy of revenge. The character only needs to be a cipher for the tragedy of revenge, that’s all. Do her however you please.

    They’ve already went on terrible, terrible tangents. They should have USED HER. It actually mKes me angry. So stupid. I think they’ve got lazy, to be honest. Or not lazy – but fatigued. Would they ever have allowed some of the silliness that happened this season when it was still fresh to them? I don’t think so.

    I think they might have run out of steam.

  192. maia
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    okay then, I guess we won’t be seeing LS. ( I don’t get it PTB, including LS = not cool but Dany crowdsurfing = cool)

  193. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    Although Alex Graves has done some amazing work (tonight had some fantastic scenes, especially Brienne/The Hound), and could have been one of the best directors GOT has ever seen… he’s screwed a few things up, and overall I’m not a big fan.

    First there was the “rape” thing, and now this exclusion of LS and Tysha. Maybe not crucial, but definitely disappointing. I also didn’t like Tyrion’s beetle-crushing monologue AT ALL in episode 8.

    I also dislike his tendency to overhype his episodes before they air (“It’s the best thing we’ve ever done, it will blow everyone away”). That leads to disappointment. And then there’s his casual way of doing interviews afterwards, where he brushes it all aside.

    So overall, I’m glad he’s not returning next year.

    Sorry, but it’s D&D’s fault. Graves has no say in the actual story.

    By the way, on reflection, the way he showed the Cersei scene, in my opinion, was brave and much more affecting.

  194. Cary Storm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Linda,

    He’s thinking you’re a different Linda. There really isn’t room in this fandom for more than one, though.

  195. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm: Lol, you people are trying to read too much into an Instagram picture, as if Lena Headey couldn’t just made a heart made of little stones just for the sake of it, without meaning to troll or to hint at anything.
    There are also pictures of her hands and feet, FFS.

    Valdred Dethstorm is right. You nerds are unbelievable. (I’m one too, don’t worry. Just making fun.) The fact that the Interwebs went apeshit over Lena’s pic proves we are all a bunch of nerds in our moms’ basements with cheetos-stained fingers.

  196. Cary Storm
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    Lena has proven she likes to troll fans though.

  197. RandomSand
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    If they show her in season 5 it will just be cheap. Unsullied will not care at all and she (as far as the books tell us so far) will do nearly nothing. I always said it: either put her before the end of season 4 (wich I reealy wanted to happen) or don’t include her at all. I really hope they cut her now.

  198. Lady
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    It will be funny when people complain about how GRRM finishes his books differently then what we have seen on TV after Season 6.

    Guaranteed people will complain both ways…it’s what they do.

    I now have 9 months to re-enjoy the books as they were written…and I’ll be getting ready for more exciting uncharted TV next April.

    Ciao for now!

  199. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Linda:
    Amazing. There’s “no time” to do the stuff that IS in the book, but freaking tons of time to waste on things that were NOT in the book.Take the crap out of the story that never HAPPENED in the story and wow, you might have the time for the stuff that DID happen.The attitude and arrogance reeks of “We know better than you the fans so shut up and watch.” We the fans are the ones who spend the money on the books and on HBO. Never forget that.

    Funnily enough I agree. They should have cut the terrible filler, and just gave less time to Bran. Then we could have had what we should have.

    However, you speak of arrogance? As furious as I am, I would never think myself so highly that I should contribute to how the series is written. I watch for D&D’s adaptation, not D&D’s implementation of fans’ ideas for an adaptation. You buy because you want what they’ve made. They don’t owe you anything.

    As soon as an author or creator starts making things for the fans, creativity has died. As much as I am fuming about LS, I would never want them to bend to the will of the audience.

  200. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    They say classism is racism cousin.

  201. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Robert Strong?
    Jon?
    Melisandre?
    Bloodraven?
    Victarion?

    Has it occured to you that Ls isnt unique.
    It shocks me that you dont bash the qyburn or bran.

  202. KnightofSummer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    There’s something quite difficult in voicing my disappointment in a show I love, based on books I love equally if not more, when I have allegiance to one version over another.

    I didn’t bat an eye, for instance, over cutting Robb Stark’s wife, Jeyne Westerling, and replacing her with Talisa Maegyr. I don’t mind killing off Pyp, Grenn, Irri, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, or Jojen when their book characters are alive and well. The non-inclusion of Strong Belwas rolled off my back. In general, I support the show’s cutting of things, even things I love, in service to the narrative, and I am profoundly unlikely to question the reasons for it–far more likely, in fact, to defend the decision. But Lady Stoneheart is something different and something that I think goes to the heart of the core fantasy of GoT/ASoIaF for me.

    I was first introduced to ASoIaF when I was seventeen, by my step-dad. It was 2000, and A Storm of Swords had just been published. I ploughed through A Game of Thrones in a weekend spent at my step-grandparents house, meaning that Ned Stark was the main-character and then killed off in the span of about thirty six hours. The second book took me about three weeks, and the third another few weeks after that (my senior year of high school slowed down my pace considerably). It would be more than five years after that that A Feast for Crows would be published, meaning that the end of that third book stuck with me from the time I was seventeen to the time I was twenty-three. The end of highschool, all of college and a decent amount of my disastrous post-college, pre-graduate school year (the “couch year”).

    What I was left with was a Westeros simultaneously stabilizing and de-stabilizing. The rollercoaster ride of the last third of A Storm of Swords (which includes the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Tywin’s death, Tyrion’s trial by combat and escape, Lysa Arryn’s murder, Arya’s departure for Braavos, the “death” of the Hound, and the Battke of Castle Black–exciting book!), had essentially erased the status quo of the series. The war that defined the first two books was ended, the long-building Wildling Invasion had been thwarted, and many of the characters were off to parts unknown, suddenly making Daenerys’ plot seem like a refocused center, rather than a far-flung tangent.

    But the real de-stabilizing factor was Lady Stoneheart, who first appears at the end of the epilogue of A Storm of Swords. It was, for me, the most perfect object lesson in George RR Martin’s penchant, for twists, brutality and hope in one moment. Catelyn’s death seemed like the cruelest of all the one’s we had been through so far. Or, at the very least, it was the one that seemed the least justified at the time. In hindsight, Ned’s death was inevitable, as was Khal Drogo’s and Renly’s and Tywin’s and all the other shocking ones. Even Robb’s made sense to me, but Catelyn had been so much of the heart of the series: politically savvy, terrifyingly devoted to her children, dangerous when pushed, all without ever stepping out of the role of hero’s doting mother / hero’s long-suffering wife. As opposed to Arya, Brienne, even Cersei, the myriad of other women seeking to subvert their defined gender roles, Catelyn was powerful and fascinating within hers, and that was something I had not seen in fantasy before. Eowyn was awesome in the Lord of the Rings, Arwen less so.

    To kill her off at the Red Wedding, perhaps the bravura scene of the series, and to kill her off as she herself is narrating (Arya witnesses Ned’s death and most other major deaths are of non-narrators), and more than merely narrating, going mad with grief and rage, hallucinating, letting all the steely violence that was below the surface finally manifest in the murder of an innocent, dimwitted man (arguably the only one in the room with no culpability for the Red Wedding)–that was an act of genius. But it was also unbelievably shocking and it felt like a keen loss, not just of a beloved character, but of an interesting perspective, a unique look at Westeros through the eyes of someone left out of most stories. When Ned died, it was shocking, but his internal self had played out, more or less. Other than revealing a few more narrative secrets, there wasn’t a lot more he could offer as a perspective. One felt the loss of Catelyn as a series-altering moment.

    And then he brought her back. It’s a complicated game that Martin plays in that epilogue. It’s wish fulfillment, on the one hand. In a set of novels where characters are so often unsafe, and those who remain, alongside the reader, are so desperate to have them back, returning Catelyn to the land of the living is an un-asked-for boon. But it is, of course, also a complete dashing of hope. The Catelyn that returns from death is not the woman we’ve followed through two thousand-odd pages; she’s an avatar of blind vengeance, her throat cut so deep she doesn’t even speak: she only points and judges, and the Brotherhood kills for her. It’s Martin telling us that even when we get the things we want, we don’t get the things we want. Where many fantasy authors use magical resurrection as a deus ex machina–to correct a plot-hole, or give their readers some sense of justice–Martin uses it to show us that justice is unavailable and coming back from the dead has so many consequences that it is never preferable to remaining dead. And by extension of course, its a further damnation of the old guard. By the end of the third book, the generation of Robert’s Rebellion is nearly all dead: Ned, Robert, Tywin, Oberyn, Catelyn, Lysa. In bringing Cat back, he he reminds us that not making way for a new generation is an abomination, eternality is stasis, and stasis is deadly.

    That’s the moment that I was left with for so many years. It was a point of no return. The supernatural angle of ASoIaF could no longer be ignored. And that, I think is why I most lament the non-inclusion of Lady Stoneheart (which I accept is the most popular name to refer to her–though Mother Merciless, is the one I always preferred) disappointed me so much. I was seeking a re-creation of that moment, where the bottom drops out of the world of the show, and you are just left with the revelation for a long period of time (9 months in this case as opposed to five years but still). That it would come at the very moment when so many other characters are off to new beginnings, it would be nice to see some through-line of the Red Wedding and its consequences (even a horrible one).

    I fear that Lady Stoneheart will be cut from the series entirely (and not just moved to season five–entirely possible and even likely at this point in the show). And as with all other cuts to the show, a part of me is ready to apologize for it: to accept that the books and the show are definitely two different entities at this point and that I love them both in different ways. I will still enjoy GoT and still enjoy ASoIaF, and stop conflating them quite as much. But this may be the first time, that I wanted a non-book reader to feel the exact same thing I did: to see the hood come back from Catelyn Stark’s face and witness her corpse-like visage.To feel hope and relief and elation and despair and horror all at once.

    Lady Stoneheart is not necessarily crucial to the plot (though there is definitely a strong argument that she is), and I don’t feel as though I was owed a scene with her (ugly fandom always asserts itself as starving orphan that deserves a better portion), but she is at the center of what makes ASoIaF important and interesting to me. I want the showrunners to acknowledge the seventeen year old boy who sat in the gym with a book when he should have been playing pick-up basketball, and got a knot in the pit of his stomach when he saw Merrett Frey’s body “go up and up and up.” It’s a selfish inclination: it’s the need to see something, above and beyond the satisfaction that it already exists, and have other people experience the same thing I did, even though it will be inevitably different through the showrunners’ eyes. But it’s the core of this TV fantasy for me. It’s believing, perhaps erroneously, that in watching this show, my friends will know some little piece of who I was, and the things I read at a seminal age, that helped make me who I am. It’s an analogue really for what Catelyn’s resurrection did for the books. The show is breathing life into something dead and forgotten–that wonder of reading those books for the first time–but just as with Cat, there is no reclaiming the past in full, and nothing comes back quite the way you wanted.

  203. Justin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    Dwayne Roberts,

    I thought the same thing. They really screwed up on that scene

  204. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    Just as Coppola elevated Puzo’s rather average Godfather books (at least with Godfather I and II) Benioff and Weiss are dramatically elevating (and improving on) GRRM’s rather average set of books (with books 1-3 being very much above average). The show is pulling ahead of the books not just in timeline, but in quality as well. And it’s likely that the adaptations of book 4 and 5 will be much better on screen, as those are basically very forgettable stories.

    If only Lord of the Rings could have gotten such an intelligent treatment…

    Dude, can you try and write with a little more humility? You done speak for everybody and you’re not the voice of reason. Your views are in the minority here and highly controversial generally. So can you state stating shit as if it’s universally accepted?

    The show does character better than the books, well at least the earlier books, but it does world and story a lot, lot worse., in my opinion.

    I think the fact you like the earlier books, and only as average, but seem to dismiss the later ones, tells me your interest is more in instant gratification and plot twists, than a fully developed world and characters with a bit of depth, not to mention strong and expertly crafted tone and atmosphere.

  205. dragonreborn
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    I had a great final episode despite the exclusion. actually I didn’t expect to like it without LS.
    What bothers me is this interview. It somewhat confirms that LS storyline isn’t gonna get anywhere in the books as well :/

    I want a trial by combat with GRRM
    YOU MURDERED HER!!
    YOU RESURRECTED HER !!
    FOR A FRUITLESS STORYLINE!!!

  206. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    I’m on an iPhone so forgive the typos, I would edit the post, but the site’s only started showing up iPhone comments again, so an edit feature is probably still some time away.

  207. loco73
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    These guys will never catch a break no matter what they do. Somehow, someway, they will end up dissapointing someone. They are caught between a rock and a hardplace…damned if you do, damned if you don’t type of deal.

    Remember, their aim is to tell the story through their eyes and from their point of view, not yours. They have to make a show which appeals to most not to some…Pretty much every, writer, director or artist of any kind takes that creative path, if they start compromising their vision to please everyone elses, they are doomed to failure. George, David and Dan are no different in that sense.

    Do you guys think that this show would have even made it to TV land, let alone lasted this long, if D&D and the entire team behind GoT second-guessed themselves at each step and tried to please each individual fan?!?!? If that was the case, we would now wonder what would have been like to have a tv show at all…

    Instead here we are, four glorious seasons later, Season Five and Season Six greenlit already by HBO (which in itself should be a reason to celebrate since its not too often that that happens)and all people are interested in is this incessant complaining and nitpicking…

    Honestly I wonder sometimes about people when I see this amount of nonsense…and then I think at what Einstein said about human stupidity being infinite, and I tend to agree more and more with him!

  208. Brandon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    *Deep breath…this is going to be long* As a die hard book fan I find it incredibly displeasing that the book community has had such a HARSH reaction to this. The one thing that annoys me the most is that because it has been blown up so much, there are articles everywhere regarding it, with Catelyn’s picture posted everywhere. IF Dave & Dan did plan on introducing her in the next season it will certainly be spoiled now. Honestly I love the next two books but there are not that many “WTF!” moments to draw from. ASOS had some of the best and it kind of makes sense for them to be holding off on that reveal and keeping it in reserve. (just like the Jon warg reveal which will probably be next season as well). It would be a great episode ender for an early S5 episode. All of those griping about her importance in the overall story should really stop complaining. Yes, she is important to both Jamie and Brienne’s storylines but that doesn’t even happen until AFFC & ADWD. If they’d have gone there in this season given how far they’d already gone with Brienne and Pod, they would have NOTHING to do in the next season. Ppl keep saying it would have been better if they had her hang a few frey’s and been the season finale ender. I say, her reveal has the most impact towards the show in a scene with Brienne & Pod. Book readers have voiced before that the next two books left much to be desired and I feel deep down that Dave & Dan feel that way too and will be making changes to make things more interesting. With that in mind can we honestly get this upset that they did not include every single jaw dropping moment in this season?
    I thought ppl would be complaining more so about the Jojen death aka major TWOW spoiler that was made (lends credit to the Jojen paste theory…which if that is how he really went out *off screen* then this was way more of an epic death).

    I loved this episode and I can see why they feel it is the strongest of the series. If I was not a reader of the books, I would have no problems with it what so ever. As a book reader and knowing what happens it kind of taints the show experience. I’ve always had a vision of what the children of the forest would look like and that was not what I imagined. I pictured them more animal like than human, resembling a cross between a humanoid deer and cat. But I am NOT going crazy over the changes because I understand this is the show, not the book, and not everything can be perfect. Same with all the Tysha uproar. Yes, it lends to the impact of the Tyrion and Jamie departure but in the end I don’t see it having that much importance. I echo a few others in feeling that all the Tysha inner monologue with Tyrion got to be too much. And in the show, we would not have gotten that anyway as we can not hear his thoughts…so it makes sense why they cut it. Loved The Hound vs. Brienne and thought it made more sense, as the hound being taken down by such less skilled fighters made no sense to me in the book. Way more of an epic death. Book readers love to gripe about all of the extra scenes and the omission of the one’s they REALLY wanted. To that I say this is a show with an already massive cast…actors that have signed contracts. They intentionally are doing these extra scenes to fulfill that obligation and to further their character’s story. Can we please stop chastising them for this? I personally love the additional material. The books are great but what I constantly am wishing for is more perspective. Seeing things from only a few character’s perspectives can be a great device in most instances as it forces the reader to paint the rest of the picture, but in some it leaves too much open to interpretation and so many questions unanswered. As a show, they need to show ALL the perspectives for it to work.

    Sorry about my rant but as many of you have stated, everyone has the right to an opinion and to voice it on this thread. I just wish these opinions did not overshadow an otherwise Amazing episode that deserves some recognition. The best finale that GOT has had so far and one of the best episodes of the series, that is overlooked due to the omission of one character who quite frankly has little to do with the overall story and would be better suited to be introduced in the show universe at a later time.

  209. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    There are no main characters.
    The closest we had was Tywin, Petyr and Varys.

    I suggest you read more fantasy- but I guess you are going to pan Harry Potter for lack of worldbuilding.
    Otherwise id suggest Perdido Station and Gormenghast, neither with medieval undead.

  210. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Linda,

    You are Linda. Linda has not read ASOS.

  211. smitzzz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    What happened was that lots and lots of know it all book readers decided to whip themselves into a frenzy and managed to persuade themselves that no matter what LSH was in for the finale , anybody who disagreed was shouted down and called names , anybody who made the argument that there had been no build up for the character was shouted down and called names and now the inevitable has come to pass and she was a no show guess what , the know it all book readers are calling everybody names again , no wonder D&D stay clear of the internet .

  212. Alexandre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    The Finale was great, but I understand why they didn’t go on to adding LS: there’s already so much going on in the show right now and it would also be better to delay her a little more so they can have more things to tell in the next two Seasons.

    It would be a shame if she doesn’t make it back on the show, but even then I don’t mind if we’ll have to wait a year or two to see her.

    It’s something hard to bring up on the show for those who don’t read the books, and I think that’s why we need to wait for some of the current story arcs to wrap up before introducing her slowly to the story.

  213. Jason Yager
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    There probably is absolutely zero point in LS if Jaime is going to Dorne like the casting video for whichever sandsnake implied…other than to just randomly show Freys being hung…what would be LS’ purpose w/ Brienne w/o Jaime in the Riverlands. I’d venture to guess the Riverlands plot is cut, no more Brotherhood, no LS and Brienne will be sent on some other weird irrelevant adventure IF she doesn’t get redirected to Sansa next season.

  214. RandomSand
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    KnightofSummer,

    I agree 110%. Except for one thing, I think next season will be too late to introduce her, the impact will be extremely weakened because of the long time that has passed since her death in S3E9. Nobody will care about her and in the middle of a season with so many new information for viwers to process all of what you talked about her representing will be lost. That’s just my opinion of course, and great text by the way.

  215. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I have to agree with fuelpagan. I see no drop in the value of life in this world, just because of LS’s character. Resurrection is a huge part of the magik of this world, and will continue to play a greater role as the logarithmic curve of life and death speeds up to the endgame.
    Dragons were dead, and Dany resurrected them with her sacrifice. All kinds of wights exist in the cold north, and indeed the WW have woken after thousands of years “asleep”. Vaymyr has escaped death through warging. Frankenmountain lives, due to Qyburns apparent midevil blood transfuser. The Gravedigger lives on long after a helm is retired. Jaime and bran have both been born again. The Nights King lives on, and was once just a man. Coldhands died long ago. Patchface is obsessed, and the Ironborn worship resuscitation (how cheap is that?). The house of black and white seems to be the ambassador of death, simultaneously enforcing the gift of death, while also holding secrets to cheat death. The children are actually really fucking old, and should be dead.

    I think these stories focus more on the circle of life and death, than on dragons and direwolves, walkers and watchmen on walls of ice. LS fits perfectly into the story. And however cheap she may seem to you.. The show actually made moves to demonstrate just how powerful the act of resurrection is by having Melisandre so shocked by Thoros’s power, which is the direct line from the red god to LS. She who can birth a queefdemon assassin in the likeness of the father, baffled by this power.
    Also,. I think you do yourself a disservice continually comparing Grrm to Tolkien, particularly with regards to the issue of life, death, and resurrection. They are after all, different stories entirely.

    I am bummed we did not see her, not because I don’t think we will (season 5!), but because I think they wasted the…. Golden goose they were given. This would have been the ultimate cliffhanger. Arya headed for Braavos…. Well, how can you not be happy for her……. But…. Not quite the kickass ending to a great ep 10, and a fantastic season that would have been the simultaneously horrific/hopeful/WTF was that shit scene they had at their disposal.

    Sigh. Here’s to the offseason…. At least we have the World Cup. And way to go, San Antone!

  216. Ronin
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    they made a dozen of zombies attacking Bran and his friends, but couldn’t make one zombie who is 100x more important to the story: Lady Stoneheart?!

    such bullsh*t

  217. Bob Dobalina
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington:
    I could be misreading it, but the ‘waste’ to them seems to have been the idea of bringing her back this season *just* to kill some people.

    Since that is all she does in the books as well, it is pretty safe to say LSH is cut.

  218. Errortype520
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Kosis,

    I agree. Just 30 seconds would have been enough to get people talking. End the season with this giant shocker. I think they dropped the ball there.

  219. Chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Have to agree. The Dondarrion stuff seems like pure set-up. While I’ll have to admit LS doesn’t do much in the books (yet), I have to/choose to believe GRRM has something in store for her, other than just a device to turn Brienne around with a moral dilemma. However, LS actually ties into larger themes. It seems that resurrection is actually a fairly big theme that ASOIAF plays with. In addition to LS and Dondarrion, there’s the wights, Gregor/”Robert Strong”, possibly Melisandre (hinted at), and probably Jon Snow in some fashion.

  220. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Brandon,

    If they keep her in, and it’s spoiled for everybody in the meantime, the only ones to blame are DnD. For the record, I generally have supported adaptation changes. This one baffles me.

  221. Chris
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Jared,

    Agree. Her inclusion, if it’s not in service of the actual plot is simply shock with no value to the story. It’s the equivalent of a cat jumping out unexpectedly in a horror movie. However, if GRRM has more in store for her, that’s altogether different. I’m still guessing it’s the latter (why do it otherwise), but we shall see (in 2015, maybe?).

  222. Charles
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    the writers have lost this show. none (except the hound-arya scene) of the scenes this episodes had the resonance they were suppose to have. The big tyrion scenes was weak, because it lacked the motivation behind it had in the books (Jaime), and they dialogue in the end when tyrion killed Tywin wasn’t up to par. The bran scenes were comical. Does anyone care that jojen is dead? And if canonical “zombies” are something you are afraid of doing, then how about fireball slinging midget elves? That scene was so butchered it begs the question of weather that is the same show i’ve been watching all this time. Horrible. Very disappointed in this ep and now that i’m hearing they are considering cutting uncat i think i might be done with the show after-all. This show could have been the sopranos of its age. It had the budget, the casting, and the material to be one of th all time great and complex shows like mad men, sopranos, the wire and breaking bad–all it was missing was a set of competent writers. The only one worth his salt in that team is cogman. I’m grateful to benioff and weiss for bringing the story to life, but when i think of what could have been i can’t help but to be sad.

  223. Hilda
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    I’m hoping for next season for lady stoneheart. It’s not like it’s gonna cost them big money for CGI. Unless they use it for her appearance which I don’t think that would be needed in place of makeup and prosthetics.

  224. Maelina
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Jared,

    I completely agree. IMO, there is no indication yet in the books that LS is going to be playing a major part in the end, so cutting her doesn’t truthfully bother me that much. It would’ve been nice to see the non-book reader reaction to her, but as Graves says, what would they have done with her next season? I trust D&D on this, if LS is important, they will introduce her later.

    The season 4 finale is a brilliant episode, it didn’t need LS.

  225. Sunfyre
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    LOL dude.

  226. Brandon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    How are DnD to blame? Are they seriously supposed to come out and send a coded message to all the fans and say “hey, we’re holding this one off for the next season…calm down…don’t worry”??? If that’s the case they should do that for every single plot point of this series JUST so the sullied don’t spoil it. If they made any mention of this, as they are the Show Runners, it would be blown up on every media site and it would get spoiled in that way…just like with Alex Graves’ statement. As a book reader I like not knowing what is going to happen, what will make it in and what won’t, what’s tweaked etc. If they do add her it will be for Brienne, not because she is incredibly important on her own…as that has proved not the case. And now that Brienne has actually gotten close to nabbing one of the stark daughters, it will be even more of a “you failed” type of moment if she’s in the next season. And actually it would be even more of a shocker, as it is happening a WHOLE season later…when she is completely an afterthought.

    I seriously thought that the ASOIAF community was better than this, as we kept the Red Wedding under lock and key for the longest…same with the purple and the viper crunch, but now I’m afraid ppl are going to go around spoiling the unsullied just because they didn’t get what they wanted/have a vendetta against the show. I mean Jojen & Meera didn’t show up until a whole season later when they were more important. Like I said, Jon isn’t even a warg yet & I’m most certain they will bring that in some how at some point. You ppl act like there is no possible way she could show up in the next season when there is obviously still hope she will as she does lend to other storylines for AFFC & ADWD. IF she doesn’t oh well…we still have WAY more great story to experience.

  227. Lollius Palicanus
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    To the people denying the importance of Tysha.

    I just watched the episode, with unsullied friends. When I asked them about it, they felt that the motivations of Tyrion were not clear. It felt too fast for them, too spontaneously dangerous for a calculating character like Tyrion.
    Then I told them about the Tysha element in the books (they did remember the story from season 1), and they just sat there with their mouths open for a while. It made much more sense to them, it seemed much more dramatic and understandable.

    I have never criticized the adaption of the books before, but cutting Tysha was a big mistake.

  228. kas
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Dave,

    I don’t know what you’re smoking but you’re wrong and if you don’t pay attention then stop wasting my time with an incorrect statement.

    I’ve seen it. It’s there. Case closed.

  229. Phillip
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Why is everyone going nuts about lady Stoneheart when there are still other parts of storm of swords left undone like Jon Snow becoming Lord commander of the nights watch, now if Brienne dies in a diff way then I’ll be upset, long wait now for season 5

  230. hedonism
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    LS was not just a murderous zombie, she was the gods way of punishing the Frey’s for violating guest rights, remember the story of the rat king, even the show utilized it with Bran telling the story to the rest of his party, I thought that that scene was eventually going to lead to LS appearance.

  231. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    Everybody still continues to ignore the Michelle Fairley issue and assumes she is willing to play a role like this and D&D are just refusing to put the character in the show to piss people off and “ruin the books”. How do you get Michelle Fairley to sign a contract to play a role like this with very little screen time and almost no dialogue. She has other roles she would like to play and probably doesn’t want to have to organize her schedule around having to fly to Belfast to film a few scenes for a role like this on GoT. This is character that wouldn’t translate well to film. She is already pretty cheesy in the books but tolerable because she remains on the peripheral and has only shown up briefly, however cheesy she is in the books would be 10x more so on TV. Though when this show has fighting skeletons and fireballs I don’t think D&D can use the excuse that Lady Stoneheart is too cheesy for the TV show.

  232. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Phillip,

    Why is everyone going nuts about lady Stoneheart when there are still other parts of storm of swords left undone like Jon Snow becoming Lord commander of the nights watch, now if Brienne dies in a diff way then I’ll be upset, long wait now for season 5

    Because we know Jon Snow will become Lord Commander next season while Lady Stoneheart is looking like she will be completely cut from the show. I don’t have an issue with her being cut but lot of other people do. I’m more upset about Coldhands being cut to be honest.

  233. Tabes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, I’ll just never understand this decision to not include her at the end of the season. Look what’s happened, an AMAZING season is now overshadowed by this controversy. Now the Unsullied will all be spoiled on one of the most shocking twists from the book. And the absence of Nymeria too, not even a mention of the pack of wolves ravaging the riverlands. I really hope they’re just saving all this for next season but I still think this was a very very poor choice by D&D and it’s too bad. They must have known this would happen. I have no problem with the deviations from the books, but the things they choose to not go with baffle me.

  234. Darquemode
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I will never understand the anger Stoneheart was not in the finale.
    She was never going to appear this season… I’m not even sure she is needed frankly.

    She could do something integral to the story in the upcoming books, but so far she is simply unneeded to the story on TV. Remove her and it barely changes Brienne and Jaime’s arcs if it does at all. They could have Beric fulfill the role and lose very little overall. Of course they could just write something new as well. Problem solved.

    Then there is the actress herself. Some say Fairley is not needed, and others say she can film 3 or 4 scenes as it fits her schedule. I think both are off base. Fairley is needed to be Stonehart if they want fans to connect emotionaly to the role. I do not see a new actress pulling it off in the way Fairley could. Some fans have had seizures about the various actors playing The Mountain, imagine their fits if a different actress plays Stoneheart! XD

    The other side of that is if she is only needed for a few scenes, do they really need her at all? I just do not see it being worth bringing back Fairley or introducing Stoneheart for a few scenes. No way. Now if LS takes on a bigger role in the future books and has an arc of her own (something more than killing Freys which can be done by the BWOB) then I can see them introducing the character.. However, I’m not sure she would be needed next year if that the case. And the longer they wait the less likely it is that they would decide to bring Stoneheart to the series IMO.

    To sum up, all signs pointed to her being excluded from the very beginning. If she does make it would be fun, but as of ADWD I personally do not see the reason for her being on the show.

  235. albireo
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    KnightofSummer,

    I couldn’t agree more. Better having ‘guh guh guh’ and burping whores I suppose. The show lost some magic, literally.

  236. Ser Matt the Sullen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    I’m one of those people who was completely invested in LS showing up in the finale…

    BUT… I didn’t get to watch the episode live, and actually googled (after MUCH internal debate) to see if she appears.

    When I saw that she doesn’t, I was angry, upset and disappointed. I didnt even bother to watch the episode this morning. I just got up and left my house, pissed off at D&D.

    When I got home maybe 8 hours later, all the anger was gone, and I really REALLY enjoyed the episode. The fact that I knew LS wasn’t coming made it much easier to focus on the scenes as they happened, and it was awesome!

  237. Sheriff Bullock
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    One of the most condescending and ignorant statements I have ever read from a director. It’s even more ridiculous when he seemed to have no issues shooting a scene involving Skeleton Warriors and a child who can shoot fireballs from her hand.

    Alex Graves I here by sentence you to exile, never direct another episode of GOT.

  238. Mark Wulf
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Same here…

  239. rollseyes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    But stories about eunuch romance and a “slow” lannister killing beetles… those are relevant? /facepalm

  240. Stella
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    KnightofSummer,

    I do not post here very often, so my praise may not count for much (especially during this on-going hullabaloo about Lady Stoneheart), but I do want to say that your words touched me very deeply.

    You are a good writer and a thoughtful thinker. I am very glad you shared your memories of reading the books and especially, of course, the famous Epilogue. I feel as you do, as you might guess. I think it is the hope of every reader that other readers experience the same thrills, the same wonder that we did…but it is hard to capture lightning in a bottle and readers (and viewers) are all different. So are show-runners. Sigh.

    Thanks for putting into such eloquent words what I believe many readers are feeling today.

  241. Chriss
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    KnightofSummer:
    There’s something quite difficult in voicing my disappointment in a show I love, based on books I love equally if not more, when I have allegiance to one version over another.

    I didn’t bat an eye, for instance, over cutting Robb Stark’s wife, Jeyne Westerling, and replacing her with Talisa Maegyr. I don’t mind killing off Pyp, Grenn, Irri, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, or Jojen when their book characters are alive and well. The non-inclusion of Strong Belwas rolled off my back. In general, I support the show’s cutting of things, even things I love, in service to the narrative, and I am profoundly unlikely to question the reasons for it–far more likely, in fact, to defend the decision. But Lady Stoneheart is something different and something that I think goes to the heart of the core fantasy of GoT/ASoIaF for me.

    I was first introduced to ASoIaF when I was seventeen, by my step-dad. It was 2000, and A Storm of Swords had just been published. I ploughed through A Game of Thrones in a weekend spent at my step-grandparents house, meaning that Ned Stark was the main-character and then killed off in the span of about thirty six hours. The second book took me about three weeks, and the third another few weeks after that (my senior year of high school slowed down my pace considerably). It would be more than five years after that that A Feast for Crows would be published, meaning that the end of that third book stuck with me from the time I was seventeen to the time I was twenty-three. The end of highschool, all of college and a decent amount of my disastrous post-college, pre-graduate school year (the “couch year”).

    What I was left with was a Westeros simultaneously stabilizing and de-stabilizing. The rollercoaster ride of the last third of A Storm of Swords (which includes the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Tywin’s death, Tyrion’s trial by combat and escape, Lysa Arryn’s murder, Arya’s departure for Braavos, the “death” of the Hound, and the Battke of Castle Black–exciting book!), had essentially erased the status quo of the series. The war that defined the first two books was ended, the long-building Wildling Invasion had been thwarted, and many of the characters were off to parts unknown, suddenly making Daenerys’ plot seem like a refocused center, rather than a far-flung tangent.

    But the real de-stabilizing factor was Lady Stoneheart, who first appears at the end of the epilogue of A Storm of Swords. It was, for me, the most perfect object lesson in George RR Martin’s penchant, for twists, brutality and hope in one moment. Catelyn’s death seemed like the cruelest of all the one’s we had been through so far. Or, at the very least, it was the one that seemed the least justified at the time. In hindsight, Ned’s death was inevitable, as was Khal Drogo’s and Renly’s and Tywin’s and all the other shocking ones. Even Robb’s made sense to me, but Catelyn had been so much of the heart of the series: politically savvy, terrifyingly devoted to her children, dangerous when pushed, all without ever stepping out of the role of hero’s doting mother / hero’s long-suffering wife. As opposed to Arya, Brienne, even Cersei, the myriad of other women seeking to subvert their defined gender roles, Catelynwas powerful and fascinating within hers, and that was something I had not seen in fantasy before. Eowyn was awesome in the Lord of the Rings, Arwen less so.

    To kill her off at the Red Wedding, perhaps the bravura scene of the series, and to kill her off as she herself is narrating (Arya witnesses Ned’s death and most other major deaths are of non-narrators), and more than merely narrating, going mad with grief and rage, hallucinating, letting all the steely violence that was below the surface finally manifest in the murder of an innocent, dimwitted man (arguably the only one in the room with no culpability for the Red Wedding)–that was an act of genius. But it was also unbelievably shocking and it felt like a keen loss, not just of a beloved character, but of an interesting perspective, a unique look at Westeros through the eyes of someone left out of most stories. When Ned died, it was shocking, but his internal self had played out, more or less. Other than revealing a few more narrative secrets, there wasn’t a lot more he could offer as a perspective. One felt the loss of Catelyn as a series-altering moment.

    And then he brought her back. It’s a complicated game that Martin plays in that epilogue. It’s wish fulfillment, on the one hand. In a set of novels where characters are so often unsafe, and those who remain, alongside the reader, are so desperate to have them back, returning Catelyn to the land of the living is an un-asked-for boon. But it is, of course, also a complete dashing of hope. The Catelyn that returns from death is not the woman we’ve followed through two thousand-odd pages; she’s an avatar of blind vengeance, her throat cut so deep she doesn’t even speak: she only points and judges, and the Brotherhood kills for her. It’s Martin telling us that even when we get the things we want, we don’t get the things we want. Where many fantasy authors use magical resurrection as a deus ex machina–to correct a plot-hole, or give their readers some sense of justice–Martin uses it to show us that justice is unavailable and coming back from the dead has so many consequences that it is never preferable to remaining dead. And by extension of course, its a further damnation of the old guard. By the end of the third book, the generation of Robert’s Rebellion is nearly all dead: Ned, Robert, Tywin, Oberyn, Catelyn, Lysa. In bringing Cat back, he he reminds us that not making way for a new generation is an abomination, eternality is stasis, and stasis is deadly.

    That’s the moment that I was left with for so many years. It was a point of no return. The supernatural angle of ASoIaF could no longer be ignored. And that, I think is why I most lament the non-inclusion of Lady Stoneheart (which I accept is the most popular name to refer to her–though Mother Merciless, is the one I always preferred) disappointed me so much. I was seeking a re-creation of that moment, where the bottom drops out of the world of the show, and you are just left with the revelation for a long period of time (9 months in this case as opposed to five years but still). That it would come at the very moment when so many other characters are off to new beginnings, it would be nice to see some through-line of the Red Wedding and its consequences (even a horrible one).

    I fear that Lady Stoneheart will be cut from the series entirely (and not just moved to season five–entirely possible and even likely at this point in the show). And as with all other cuts to the show, a part of me is ready to apologize for it: to accept that the books and the show are definitely two different entities at this point and that I love them both in different ways. I will still enjoy GoT and still enjoy ASoIaF, and stop conflating them quite as much. But this may be the first time, that I wanted a non-book reader to feel the exact same thing I did: to see the hood come back from Catelyn Stark’s face and witness her corpse-like visage.To feel hope and relief and elation and despair and horror all at once.

    Lady Stoneheart is not necessarily crucial to the plot (though there is definitely a strong argument that she is), and I don’t feel as though I was owed a scene with her (ugly fandom always asserts itself as starving orphan that deserves a better portion), but she is at the center of what makes ASoIaF important and interesting to me. I want the showrunners to acknowledge the seventeen year old boy who sat in the gym with a book when he should have been playing pick-up basketball, and got a knot in the pit of his stomach when he saw Merrett Frey’s body “go up and up and up.” It’s a selfish inclination: it’s the need to see something, above and beyond the satisfaction that it already exists, and have other people experience the same thing I did, even though it will be inevitably different through the showrunners’ eyes. But it’s the core of this TV fantasy for me. It’s believing, perhaps erroneously, that in watching this show, my friends will know some little piece of who I was, and the things I read at a seminal age, that helped make me who I am. It’s an analogue really for what Catelyn’s resurrection did for the books. The show is breathing life into something dead and forgotten–that wonder of reading those books for the first time–but just as with Cat, there is no reclaiming the past in full, and nothing comes back quite the way you wanted.

    Great piece. I quote because I’d like others to read it.

  242. KnightofSummer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Chriss,
    Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it!

  243. KnightofSummer
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Stella,

    Glad I could help!

  244. FartNuggets
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Valdred Dethstorm,

    Not lose relevance? He wrote the story you fool. If the show progresses beyond his writings and uses GRRMs already known main character ends without the books as guidance it will devolve into a monstrosity. I for one would simply wait until the books were done and THEN finish watching whatever butchery of a conclusion they fumbled to.

  245. Coltaine777
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    disappointed that we did not get LS too, but the ep was very entertaining.

  246. FartNuggets
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Darquemode,

    Jaime left going to look for Brienne (supposedly) rememeber….AFTER her interraction with LS. Said interraction certainly affects Briennes current state and thats of course assuming that it was even Brienne he was going to see. Not necessary to Jaime and Briennes arcs lol. What nonsense.

  247. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    Just finished listening to Andy Greenwald’s Hollywood prospectus podcast. After listening to them being spoiled about Lady Stoneheart I wouldn’t mind if D&D cut her character out entirely. The moment to introduce her was lost and now the Unsillied know it’s coming. I think it would work if the Blackfish lead the Brotherhood instead.

  248. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    FartNuggets:
    Darquemode,

    Jaime left going to look for Brienne (supposedly) rememeber….AFTER her interraction with LS. Said interraction certainly affects Briennes current state and thats of course assuming that it was even Brienne he was going to see. Not necessary to Jaime and Briennes arcs lol. What nonsense.

    Well Jaime is going to Dorne in season 4 along with Bronn. So the Brienne arc could be totally different too now

  249. FartNuggets
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Season 4 just ended. If those events occur in season 5 then it will be official that D & D have little regard for the source material.

  250. Darquemode
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    FartNuggets,

    The only utter nonsense is the assumption that the characters will do exactly what they did in the books. Very, very few scenes have played out the exact same way they did in the books and many, if not most characters have taken different routes to their seasonal end points than their book counterparts.

    Without knowing for sure what the next step in Brienne’s journey is, how can you say say she absolutely needs to meet with LS? Likewise for Jaime. So many seemingly vital story points have been erased from the TV show with little or no effect to the general story. You and I have no clue what D&D will have Jaime and Brienne do next year…. They easily could change what both Jaime and Brienne do and make the Stoneheart debate completely meaningless.

    Don’t get me wrong…
    I am considered a book purist by most on this site! I would love more of the sub-plots and tertiary elements to make it to the series. I just realize that many of the elements are simply unneeded and many more can be tweaked or combined to eliminate other aspects altogether.

  251. DarthCrap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Lady Stoneheart is not a zombie!

    If D&D can get past the white walkers and introduced sentient Caster’s broods Lady Stoneheart is in fact a terrifying character that can haunt the North stolen by Bolton.

    Lady Stoneheart must be included in season 5, she must!

  252. Darquemode
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Exactly!
    I’ve read that rumor as well, but even if that rumor is accurate, Jaime could in theory end up back in the Riverlands later anyway….

    We simply cannot assume each character’s experiences from the books will play out the same on TV. So much needs to be cut, tweaked and combined to allow D&D to have the series finish in seven seasons.

    People clamored that Coldhands was sure to make the series… The series was fine without him in the end.

  253. S Tali Hananias
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    First episode I thouroughlly thought was a bunch of crap. Mance looks like a hobo and jon just walks up to his tent? what kind of shit army is that. No tysha, which was necesary to undersant Tyrion’s motives for killin his father. Bran’s fight with the skeletons was just horrible…couldn’t they use normal wights instead of going all disney on us? The Children shooting fireballs??? WTF was that all about? Everything was way to cheesy and cheap. Bloodraven looked like a shaved gandalf, no roots morphing into him… To top it off no LS…All my unsullied friends were pretty dissapointed with the finale, and I can’t blame them, the first two season finales where awesome but s3 and s4 last scenes have been pathetic, what the hell was that music in the backround? GoT tune sung by angels was just sooooooooo cheasy it made me cringe. My dissapointment is so big i’m not even sad s4 ended. I hope we dont see graves directing anything else and D&D better start thinking shit through before slapping us all in the face with cringe worthy decisions.

  254. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    I think the show is at the point that if the changes piss you off this much, that there is little reason to continue watching. I’d say at least 30-40% of book readers disliked, or at least were underwhelmed, by the last 2 books. Maybe it is best just to quit now, and maybe pick back up once George, or another writer, finishes the books in 12-15 years. Either way, this constant bickering is becoming boring. Hopefully things settle down and it is an interesting casting season. And maybe the show can improve upon books 4 and 5.

  255. Jason
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    I’ve gotta say I totally see where they’re coming from.

    We’re all scared about the show catching up to the books, yet we’re all expecting certain story lines to be included now. Seems to me that people are quite disappointed that some book scenes felt a bit rushed/simplified, but the reality is, trying to squeeze more fan-favourite scenes in would probably make that problem even worse.

    Personally I thought it would have seemed cheesy and irrelevant to shoehorn LS into the end of this season, given everything else that was happening. I feel like there would need to be some sort of buildup perhaps with reports of soldiers being slaughtered across the riverlands, by someone other than The Hound (as that was his claim to infamy this season). I feel a bit of mystery about it would help quite a bit, and audiences definitely wouldn’t expect it once they reveal who’s behind it.
    I do hope they don’t write her out of course, assuming her storyline actually does become more important further on in the books, because let’s be honest her story is cool but doesn’t impact the greater plot all that much so far. I’m more than happy to wait a bit longer for it if it means a better ‘execution’ of it.

  256. Big Nasty
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    This is just my opinion but I think since season 5 doesn’t have a big thing for episode 9 or 10 like all the rest they needed to hold out on LS. Also building the story of the Freys and the Boltons at Winterfell could add to the story line. We didn’t see the Freys in season 4 so many of the unsullied might have forgot how much they hate the Freys. So in my opinion instead of a big death at episode 9 like Ned or red wedding or the blood bath of season 4, it could be a episode 9 with someone coming back.

  257. Salty Dornishman
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Hilda,

    Holy cow!! Someone is using my given name!!

    Give it back :-)

    j/k

  258. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Brandon,

    Hey man, first of all, I’m no purist and I’m not screaming bloody murder, so chill it out with “you ppl”. You don’t need a condescending tone to make your point, which I understand.
    As to said point, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Asoiaf community should be held accountable for spoiling this element for anybody, because we are invested, we are not responsible for mainstream media picking up on any of this, and clearly, this is a controversial deviation. This is not akin to keeping red and purple weddings under wraps, or RV (which anybody with a brain should have seen coming, as shocking and emotional as it was). There was never any question as to whether these events were to be included, and most unsullied understand the importance and did their due diligence.
    As to this apparent deviation, people have the right to discuss this, especially given Graves reckless comments. I say that if DnD want it to be a surprise for next year, but it gets spoiled in the meantime, they have only themselves to blame. I think she can, and hope she will, be included next year, but if shock value was ever gonna be intended- they just passed up the best opportunity. I do understand the general arguments for and against her inclusion, I see both sides, but this is not what im commenting on. I submit to you that this was a moment lost, and that “the asoiaf community” should bear no responsibility should the word get out and the unsullied get spoiled as a result of the next days, weeks, and indeed months of conversation until next season. DnD either chose to wait, or they chose to cut, and either way, the choices made are nothing if not their own. They should be held accountable. (Fwiw, I am NOT a DnD hater, but this one is most definitely on them).

  259. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Just finished listening to Andy Greenwald’s Hollywood prospectus podcast. After listening to them being spoiled about Lady Stoneheart I wouldn’t mind if D&D cut her character out entirely. The moment to introduce her was lost and now the Unsillied know it’s coming. I think it would work if the Blackfish lead the Brotherhood instead.

    Ooooh, that would be do much better. I love the actor playing the Blackfish, and would love to see him as a main character in the Riverlands. He was set up to be important, and this might be why.

    IMO that would be far more satisfying than zombie Cat.

  260. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    rollseyes:
    But stories about eunuch romance and a “slow” lannister killing beetles… those are relevant?/facepalm

    Two of my top 5 scenes of the season.

  261. Ashara D
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    Sam DeGree:
    I really feel as though including LS would have been making a promise D&D couldn’t perform next season. Placing that scene at the end of the season puts LS up on a pedestal…it creates the expectation that we are going to see a lot more of LS soon, and that she will be a major game-changer for the series. Based on the novels currently written, there simply is not enough significant material for LS to fulfill those expectations, and viewers would ultimately have felt like they were cheated by a cheap trick.

    I suppose the same could be said of many of the book/show’s scenes with the White Walkers; but at least with that we know it will ultimately play a major role in the story’s conclusion, so we can be content with the slow burn. There is no such guarantee with LS.

    THIS^^^ VERY sick of this discussion.

    Thanks, Mr. Graves and D&D for a great episode of tv!!

  262. Upset
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Not to mention the fact that LSH represents the lack of closure for Catelyn Stark’s life. like I’m absolutely baffled as to how the show runners managed to downplay such a significant event. :/

  263. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    This is a decent alternative. If frays are gonna hang, it has to be lead by someone invested- not the BwB themselves. They represent the people, they do not target any group specifically, except those who would harm the common people. But how does the Blackfish earn this role? And, if most theories as to his future in the books are correct, he’s got better things to do…….

  264. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    Greetings, Lady Dayne. I have not been active yet on other threads; I imagine this is dominating and fully understand your fatigue with the discussion. But you do know this thread is all about, well, this… Right? ;)

    And your hawks played very very well. :)

  265. Maddy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Book readers re so dumb expecting a major thing from the books to happen. What were they thinking? I can’t with Alex Graves since his ‘not actually rape’ scene.

  266. DarthSansa
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Really, where is the Brienne/Podrick story line going to go next season if not to Lady Stoneheart?

    If Jamie is in Dorne, I suppose they could have them do the Blackfish storyline instead, but that feels weird.

    Introducing Lady Stoneheart next season, though weird timing wise for book fans, works in that they can drag it out and possibly end up connecting it to Jamie by the end of season. Remember, space/travel isn’t kept to on the show. I think it’s possible for Jamie to be in Kings Landing, Dorne and the North next season.

  267. Sheriff Bullock
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Stoneheart’s exclusion shouldn’t be the issue, it should be Graves abrasive statement and disrespect to the novels. He hasn’t even bothered to research the character.

  268. Nancy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    Yes, the fact that Graves did state that he asked them about her specifically for season 5 and they would not tell him anything tells me that the option is open for her to appear. Fairley has given interviews saying she can’t talk about it, which leads me to believes options are still open. Plus Hibberd from EW also said in his season 4 interview with D&D that he asked them about the character and they said they did not want to talk about it.
    None of this is to say that she wouldn’t be cut, but I do think D&D would face the music about it and explain why if the decision has been made. I’d be sorry to not see her in the show.
    Graves does need to learn some tact though, he really should not be allowed to give interviews.

  269. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    kas:
    Dave,

    I don’t know what you’re smoking but you’re wrong and if you don’t pay attention then stop wasting my time with an incorrect statement.

    I’ve seen it. It’s there. Case closed.

    Michelle Fairley’s name at no point is in the opening credits during Season FOUR. She is in the other three seasons.

  270. adi
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    suck ass failure of a director
    wtf is wrong with him, her role as a ‘zombie’ which she is not even a fucking zombie, is pretty damn important she she was SUPPOSED to be resurrected 3 DAYS AFTER THE RED WEDDING.
    you guys are completely fucking up the books.

  271. Khal-A-Bunga
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Worst fan-base ever. I miss the quality of the comments sections of old, where reasonable, insightful, respectful discussion and analysis took place. Instead we get… Whatever the majority of this is.

    Great episode, great season, great show. The cognitive dissonance that some books readers display is a hundred times more baffling than the “butchery” D&D take part in when adapting this series for television.

    I sincerely hope that everyone who says they’re going to stop watching will do exactly that, for their own mental health more than anything else.

  272. Charles M
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    the other guy: Exactly my reaction.

    Also, how can the guy be surprised that we, as fans, expected her to be in this season ? It’s the freaking epilogue of the book they’re adapting. Of course we’re expecting it…

    So they don’t want to bring Fairley back for a 50 seconds cameo just to be a zombie that kills some Frey dudes, but it’s ok to bring back Momoa at the end of season 2 just to be an illusion in Dany’s head ?

    The worst thing out of all this is that this random website, EW or whatever decided to spoil the Stoneheart reveal for all the unsullied to see with their article, because they decided that it’s a bad plotline, a lame twist, and that it shouldn’t be in the show.
    Well guess what. It’s what GRRM wrote. I’m no book purist but the fact that Cat is nowa vengeful zombie is huge, whether they like it or not. If D&D decide to cut it because they know she won’t do much in the books anyway, then too bad for the show, but at least they know what they’re doing. But the fact that a random news website is spoiling what is a major plot point in the book (that could still be adapted in the show), is just terrible.

    Because Momoa was a one time only thing. That’s not a great comparison to make. LS is a totally new storyline that raises expectations that won’t and can’t be meet, which will then simply lead to disappointment. What are you going to say to people who say the LS was all hype since she doesn’t do anything?

    She may be essential, but is she essential to the plot NOW? I don’t think so. I don’t think it makes a big difference to have her appear next season. They can introduce her properly instead of just being a shock/tease.

    I love the fact book readers don’t seem to care about story that they claim they do. D+D have been criticised for adding things just to shock people and now you people are asking for exactly that.

  273. Charles M
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    Upset:
    Turncloak,

    Not to mention the fact that LSH represents the lack of closure for Catelyn Stark’s life. like I’m absolutely baffled as to how the show runners managed to downplay such a significant event. :/

    A representation doesn’t make for a good character though does it? How does that work dramatically? We just cut to her acting all representational? She can barely communicate. That’s the problem, she isn’t much of a character. Introduce her now, and audiences are going to be expecting her to do something important than just stand around for Brienne and Jaime. All the more reason to introduce her next season with Brienne. As a character that people react TO.

  274. TheBerylfly
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    What people are failing to understand is that not every event or image has to move forward the story. This show itself is famous for having wonderful conversations between two characters which mostly contribute nothing to the plot but are appraised and fall among people’s favorites.
    It really doesn’t matter whether Stoneheart is vital or not. Perhaps her role amounted to nothing but threatening Brienne (Brotherhood can handle that part… somehow) and assaulting Riverrun (which they may cut entirely, which is also a shame but not we are discussing now). However, it was a beutifully written perfect shocker epilogue, it gave us some sweet revenge and then – chilling realisation of that sweetness being rotten, it gave Cat fans… well, not some closure, exactly the opposite in fact, but in a good way. It allowed for amazing scenes of Brienne (and possibly Lannisters in Riverrun later) fruitlessly bargaining with what was once Lady Catelyn
    Lady Stoneheart, that vengeful, torn mother merciless, could have made for iconic image of the modern TV era. And I am sure Michelle Fairley would have agreed.
    Now, they might still do her next season, but this interview makes hope wilt.

    /late-to-discussion rant over

  275. azoraguy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    By omitting Stoneheart from this episode, D&D killed any impact that she would have had.

    By the time season 5 being, most people will already be over the Red Wedding, and will be anticipating other story arcs. With several new story lines beginning next season, the impact from Cat’s return will not be as grand. Think of all the things that will begin; (Braavos, Aegon, North, Cersei vs. humanity, Tyrion, Dany w/ battle, Stannis, Bran, Greyjoys, MARTELLS!),

    I personally think that LS would have REALLY topped the bar after the scene of Arya sailing to Braavos. It would have been perfect. BWB captures Brienne, takes her to Stoneheart, Brienne freaks out, gets hung etc. At the last episode of Season 5, for the finale, they can have Brienne meet Jaime. It would be perfect! People would have thought she was dead and gone, and then BAM! She appears.

    But anyways, cutting her out was absolutely stupid. That was one of the most spine-tingling things I’ve read. By season 5, people are MOSTLY over Robb and Cat’s death. This season would have been perfect; it would have fit PERFECTLY right after the whole Brienne/Pod/Hound/Arya fight. Think about it; that fight almost seemed like preparation for it. Right when people are almost over the RW, they’d see Catelyn and freak out; it would bring back all of the red wedding feels. Waiting until next year will not be anywhere close to impactful; it’s a better season ender than beginner.

  276. DR
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    If not, I’d be livid. I can’t believe they’d be that ignorant on this.

  277. Aterpsyche
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    They will probably stretch the whole story line like they did with Arya. It is fantastic material and providing they will stick with the most controversial bit (Lady Stoneheart), they will need at least one whole season to work it out so that non-reader will be even able to comprehend. This season, there was simply not enough space to do that and thus it would – in my opinion – look ridiculous not shocking.

  278. zerowolf
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    We are book readers. That includes me. It doesn’t make us more important than the TV audience. Is their enjoyment spoiled by the omission of Lady Stoneheart?
    Of course not.
    I think that if they do include her in future seasons then she will have to have an important story arc. From the scant evidence in the books what that may be is not apparent.
    We know that GRRM has given D&D outlines of some of the main characters future paths and his envisioned ending. It may well be that LS has an important part to play…or not.
    Not knowing what is going to happen will surely give the book reader the same excitement as the non book reader. They’ll keep us guessing. I welcome that.It will be the end of spoiler tags. I welcome that too.
    However I have a feeling that we will have lots of posts beginning with the line “I can’t believe that GRRM would have written that …”
    WE’ll never know but we will have an ending which we would not have without the show because the books, unlike winter, aren’t coming.

  279. Phil
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    ok, I actually understand not getting Michelle Fairley for only a couple seconds at the end of the season. They missed an opportunity to totally blow unsullied minds and leave them hanging for a year, but whatever, it’s their call.

    But it doesn’t matter if LS has a larger role to play in the story, it’s still an important plot point, it’s a shock, it’s terrifying, it’s an example of how great GRRM can be. The epilogue to me was really boring until the reveal at the end, and then it became incredible. It should be in the show, even if it’s just the two scenes LS is in in the books. There is no reason not to include it other than to piss of the fans of the books, and probably GRRM as well.

    The Tysha thing annoys me more and more as time goes on. Put in a previously on segment, have her name dropped earlier in the season, and then do the jamie/tyrion scene. If people can’t keep up, well frankly, and I usually don’t say this, but screw them. This is not a show to watch passively. I’m tired of TPTB (for this show and other shows) dumb-ing down content because they think people are stupid or can’t keep up, most of them can (even people who haven’t read the books, if they try, can keep up.) And honestly, when reading the books, I sometimes have to go on a wiki to remember some smaller characters, it’s a vast world, it’s a complex one, and if people don’t care enough to keep up they can watch something else. It’s disgusting that TV treats people like idiots, there’s already reality tv for that, some shows you can just watch and not keep track of things, and some shows, you have to. Game of Thrones is one of those show. We’re smart viewers, we discuss and ask questions from friends who have read the books, or we look online.

    I’ve liked most of the changes so far, and understand others, but I will be beyond pissed if LS is cut (so far that, plus Tysha, plus the horrendous Jon Snow/Dany season 2 plotlines, have been the worst adaption mistakes the show has made. Heck, I’ve even learned to deal with the ‘added detours that go no where (Bran going to Crasters, etc).

    Huge mistake cutting Tysha, and it will be a huge mistake cutting LS. As for Coldhands as long as the books don’t reveal that he is Benjen, I’m ok with him being cut. Same with Strong Belwas. Would have been nice, yes, but I get it, some cuts have to be made.

  280. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    I’m more bothered by what he said about the Hound than Stoneheart.

  281. Shadowcat85
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Azad Injejikian,

    I would love to see Alik Sakharov tackle an episode 9 or 10. He’s the best of the bunch to me.

  282. Harry
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 2:12 am | Permalink

    I think the discussion about Lady Stoneheart is a waste of time.

    -Some people see just see her as a soulless zombie that kills people until the current time in the story.

    -But some people still see her as a (changed) Catelyn Stark seeking for revenge – but with story potential for than that, and as a symbol of hope for a possible, bittersweet happy end (by seeing Sansa and Arya again.)

    Now please start living with the opinions of others.

  283. Selim Baradan
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:07 am | Permalink

    This was an unfortunate interview for Alex Greaves. Since he did not read the books, he should not have made that “waste” comment.
    I don’t want to believe that LSH will be cut from the show. I still think that she’ll be a part of the show in the future and not showing her as the season ending cliffhanger was a missed opportunity.

  284. Fabian Schneider
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Selim Baradan,

    From the current state of the book, however, the character would simply be wasting viewers’ time while they are waiting for her to do something meaningful. That’s how I even felt about the character in the books. Bringing LS back is, in my opinion, a flawed decision as maybe Martin only realized later (he is, after all, a short story author by nature and does not plot as much as improvise).

    On the upside, it re-introduces a beloved character with a twist. On the downside, there is nothing she does that cannot be achieved by another character, i.e. without bloating the cast further. Her scenes currently have very little impact on the overall storyline and only serve to introduce another plot that will draw out the convoluted tangle even further. Finally and most importantly, her appearance directly goes against everything the book stands for (everyone can die) and negates one of the most shocking, human, dramatic and impactful moments in the story basically by going ‘it’s magic!’ It’s almost as distracting as the appearance of another deus ex machina in ADwD…

  285. vlad
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:34 am | Permalink

    I can’t describe how furious that statement makes me. So it’s ridiculous??? Wasn’t it the same when they brought us Beric Dondarrion the zombie??? You can’t think like that when it comes to fantasy, especially if you pretend to respect the source material. Even more, Lady Stoneheart is not brain dead, she’s just like Beric, the same person, only affected by what’s happened to her: she’s lost her husband, her children, she saw Robb killed in front of her, that drives you mad, that makes you darker… it doesn’t mean it’s not a story worth telling.

  286. silmaril
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:46 am | Permalink
  287. Dame of Mercia
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:47 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos: Just as Coppola elevated Puzo’s rather average Godfather books (at least with Godfather I and II) Benioff and Weiss are dramatically elevating (and improving on) GRRM’s rather average set of books (with books 1-3 being very much above average). The show is pulling ahead of the books not just in timeline, but in quality as well. And it’s likely that the adaptations of book 4 and 5 will be much better on screen, as those are basically very forgettable stories.If only Lord of the Rings could have gotten such an intelligent treatment…

    You are really sticking your head above the parapet there!! Fandom can be a deeply scarey place. On the whole I liked the episode (I even didn’t mind the zombie skeletons), though I agree with the poster (Chriss??) who said Alex Graves has a tendency to go in for hype. There’s a saying “Self praise is no recommendation”. There is still to me at least much to like in the series.

  288. Selim Baradan
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:54 am | Permalink

    Fabian Schneider,

    So far in the books LS did not play a crucial role but I expect her to be more involved in the story in the next book.
    I don’t think GRRM regrets his decision to bring LS back. The whole purpose of Beric Dondarrion character is LS twist. And every one gets to experience the consequences of his/her actions in the book; including Freys, Brienne and Jamie.

  289. Arya's Nose
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:23 am | Permalink

    sati,

    You call people idiots, but you’ve done absolutely nothing to prove you can do any better. I’ve seen your childish, petty blogspot, and you have to be one THE nastiest, most hateful human beings on the face of the planet. The horrible things you’ve called Emilia Clarke and Sophie Turner just go a long way to show what a terrible person you really are.

    Please don’t infect this website or Tumblr with your bile.

  290. Fabian Schneider
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Selim Baradan:
    Fabian Schneider,

    So far in the books LS did not play a crucial role but I expect her to be more involved in the story in the next book.
    I don’t think GRRM regrets his decision to bring LS back. The whole purpose of Beric Dondarrion character is LS twist. And every one gets to experience the consequences of his/her actions in the book; including Freys, Brienne and Jamie.

    I agree that she will probably play a role at some point, but whether that is one that couldn’t feasibly be taken over by another character remains to be seen. I generally belong to the “see the adaption on its own merits” crowd, and don’t feel that they really *need* to include LS considering that the show characters are completely different entities from their book namesakes. The LS storyline may lead somewhere, but there is certainly a case to be made for omitting it as well, judging from what we know so far.

  291. Carol
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    This is incredibly disrespectful. It’s chocking how those guys (Alex and D&D) spit on the books and make useless stuff instead of using what’s there. A scene with Catelyn was a waste? Just because she’s a fucking living dead monster that’s gonna kill many people for revenge? Nah, let’s have some bitches fisting each other at the brothel, or more friendzone moments for Jorah.

  292. Thronetender
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    I read elsewhere that GRRM actually regretted the inclusion of Lady Stoneheart at all, saying something like it was a plot line going nowhere. This is third hand info, but since she wasn’t in the season finale, it gives rise to the idea that she won’t be in at all.

    But, obviously, the fans of the books who knew about her were enthralled with the idea of the character. Frankly, so am I. I would love to see some major hurt put on the Freys. Cripe, the whole force of the season was revenge: Dany getting revenge of the slave Masters for their treatment of the slaves; Jon getting revenge at Crasters Keep for the wretched mutiny on Mormont; Arya getting revenge for Micah, Tyrion getting revenge for his fucked up life. I think she fit in perfectly with that flow.

    As I said, I would love to see some MAJOR damage done to the Freys, and the way the season was left, nothing was being done to them. In fact, their henchman, Bolton, is prospering from all the nastiness. The fact that Ramsay’s position is uplifted because of damage to the Starks absolutely annoys me. I can picture old man Frey still giddy about HIS revenge being taken. Plus, he still has Edmure. I think LS has a distinct place and purpose in the series, even if only for a little while. Those untended wounds are festering – and the book readers wanted them seen too. I understand and agree, even though I haven’t read that far in the books.

    The idea that they balked at using Michelle Fairley for only a scene or two doesn’t fly, either. They only used Ciaran Hinds as Mance for a scene or two this season.

  293. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    So many reasons to include Lady Stoneheart, and Michelle Fairley would have added dimension to the character (who in my opinion is not just an undead monster killing people–not at all).

    The catharsis for vengeance against the Freys, then the sick twist that she is not everything we want her to be. Plus the elements of horror that linger with her, elements missing from most of the show (most horror is glossed over–the man in the tree was creepy as hell in the book, but in the show looked like some old dude with long hair wig sitting in a tree, I laughed out loud at the absurdity).

    It’s a missed opportunity. But there seems to be plenty of opportunities for breasts in a brothel, or Grey Worm and Missendei meeting cute and Missendei showing off her (quite nice if I may add) butt. Extended Bronn scenes that were never in the book. Additional Tyrion meta-monologues about beetles that slow down the action. Mel farting around in the nude. The Hound in yet another fabricated scene. Chekov’s Bow little kid shooting people up and doing a Whassup nod to Jon Snow after killing Ygritte. But no time for a 20 second spooky reveal of UnCat, the mother of Starks, hell bent on vengeance?

    Sometimes I wonder if we aren’t watching Game of Thrones, but instead, Game of Bros.

    When D&D focus on the story, the suspense, the horror, the mystery, the family connections….we get a good show. When it’s Game of Bros, I tune out, and the show is starting to descend further into Game of Bros.

  294. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Let’s just be grateful that the show runners are smart enough to excise one of GRRM’s more glaring mistakes.

    I mean, think about it. As a plot point, where exactly is unCat going? Is she going to kill all the people that wronged her, and then crawl back into the grave? Silly.

  295. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    azoraguy,

    But why “bring back the red wedding feels?” We’re supposed to be looking forward to a new phase of the story (such as Arya in Braavos), not backward (to the Robb Stark-Joffrey war). That’s the fundamental problem with unCat. It’s not just that she’s a resurrected character that weakens the impact of death in Westeros. It’s that she represents the older generation of people that populate the first half of the story. Let’s move on and watch The Children come into their own, and leave the parents behind.

  296. vlad
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    KnightofSummer,

    Brilliant!!! Well said.

  297. Chad Brick
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    Let’s just be grateful that the show runners are smart enough to excise one of GRRM’s more glaring mistakes.

    I mean, think about it. As a plot point, where exactly is unCat going? Is she going to kill all the people that wronged her, and then crawl back into the grave? Silly.

    No, but she is likely going to cause either the death of Brienne, Jaime, or both early in Winds of Winter. Of course, she might then realize what she is done and pass along the Kiss in order to preserve her last scrap of humanity.

  298. Nancy
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    azoraguy,

    Especially with the set up of Brienne telling Arya how she would give her life to protect Catelyn and Arya reminds her that she failed then. And the Hound telling Brienne: Winterfell is rubble, her father is dead, her mother is dead, her brother is dead…where is a safe place for her? I think if we are going to see LS, it will be next season and it might be via Brienne that we are introduced to her. And we’ve been reminded frequently this season of Catelyn, Robb and Ned’s death, so it seems some retribution for those events is being set up. But I do think her appearance will lose it’s impact being so long after the RW. But maybe the show can find a way around that, should they include her. Who knows?

  299. yoeur
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Frankly, I don’t think they won’t even bother bringing Lady Stoneheart into the series at all. Fairley had a great send off (acting-wise) and it would feel like a kick in the teeth to bring her back as practically a totally different character altogether.

  300. IAGREESTANNISSUCKS
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    I just cant figure out why so many want lady stoneheart. Her role in the books does not seem particularly big, and can easily be filled by another in the TV show, say Beric Dondarion, Blackfish or Thoros of Myr. When LS appeared in the epilouge it was epic, but in AFFC and ADWD she was just another character that I did not give a crap about. And like many other have said before, it reduces the impact the RW had on the series, which is bad.

    I tought the episode was great, loved the hound vs Brienne fight and the Tyrion scenes. Regarding Tyrion`s motives, I do agree that it gets diminished when they removed the Tysha stuff, but I still think he had good enough motives to kill Tywin. I wont point out every reason for his motives, however Tyrion knows this might be the last time he is in Westeros, and he will probably never get a chance to kill his father again. All the horrible stuff Tywin has done to Tyrion combined with the stress of the situation Tyrion has been in lately, makes his choice to kill his father believable.

    The worst about this episode, like every other episode, is the Meereen story. They really need to do something interesting about that story arc. The only chapters I have skipped, is Dany`s in ADWD. And the shows portrayal of Dany is even worse, that is the only recurring story which decreases the show`s quality.

  301. Sheriff Bullock
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:
    Just as Coppola elevated Puzo’s rather average Godfather books (at least with Godfather I and II) Benioff and Weiss are dramatically elevating (and improving on) GRRM’s rather average set of books (with books 1-3 being very much above average). The show is pulling ahead of the books not just in timeline, but in quality as well. And it’s likely that the adaptations of book 4 and 5 will be much better on screen, as those are basically very forgettable stories.

    If only Lord of the Rings could have gotten such an intelligent treatment…

    Yeah cause burping whores,farting Lannister soldiers, Yara’s pointless attack on the Dreadfort and Grey Worm creeping on Missandei is really elevating this series.

  302. Cold71
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    This scene is more then just a character coming back to kill a few people, those killings make impacts and changes down the road. It really seems like the folks at HBO are reading this one book at a time and keep putting characters back in when they have that moment of “oh crap, that character was actually important…quick write them back in!”.

  303. MattyC
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos:

    Let’s just be grateful that the show runners are smart enough to excise one of GRRM’s more glaring mistakes.
    I mean, think about it. As a plot point, where exactly is unCat going? Is she going to kill all the people that wronged her, and then crawl back into the grave? Silly.

    Hey, man. I get that your role here is to continuously prick everyone’s buttons, but I have to take issue with this statement.

    Your lack of ability to figure out where GRRM is going with any given character/plot/situation is not reason enough to dis-include said character/plot/situation from the series. I have no idea where MOST of the characters/plots/situations are headed. This is never more apparent than when I re-read, and remember what I was thinking would “for sure” happen to Ned, Robb, Cat, Renly, only to be wrong literally every time.

    Sure, now I can look back with clarity and see that things were not quite so shocking as I originally read them, and that there are in fact tons of clues and markers before a character dies. But usually, upon first read, these things are not as readily apparent.

    Even your supposed “silly” reading of UnCat is totally rooted in mythology. Coming back from the grave to set right some wrongs? Yeah, that’s never happened in literature before. Especially in fantasy. You must have hated the movie The Crow. “I mean, where’s this headed? He’s going to come back from the dead, kill everyone who murdered his fiancee, and then rest in peace for all eternity? Poppycock, I say!”

  304. Dame of Mercia
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    sati:
    He’s an idiot. Why is he allowed to give interviews after he embarrassed the entire team with – it’s not a rape scene – few h later – it is a rape scene?

    I was troubled by the rape (or not???) scene to be honest but wouldn’t the director have to go with the material the writers had given him? It may have been a very sloppily directed scene. Re: changes, I don’t mind them if they are in keeping with the original story. If it’s a case of the writers thinking they are being oh so clever and improving on the original narrative, then I have reservations, especially if the changes do not move the plot forward. They could do with a few more episodes per season really, though the source matter is so long there would have to be some cuts in any case. I realise that some of the cuts are for financial reasons, though as somebody else pointed out to me, HBO must be earning a packet from “Game of Thrones” now that the TV show has become so popular so why don’t they (HBO) fork out a bit more? One of the YouTube videos says the show-runners changed Shae’s characterisation because they were impressed with Sibel Kikelli’s audition. A lady (whose name I forget at the moment) made the point that the Pod goes to the Knocking Shop scene last season took up time that could have been given to developing Sansa’s characterisation (only she put it more eloquently).

    The number of posts on this site has increased so dramatically since it became affiliated with Fansided that I don’t read every article now but I did read one feature that said D&D had discussed the content of the unpublished books in the saga with GRRM. I suppose it’s possible that some of the changes are to accommodate what happens in the story further down the line, and none of us know for certain what will be in the last two books. (Okay I know a couple of chapters of the sixth book have been published on the internet). I’m not saying for definite that the changes are to accommodate material in the unpublished books, just saying it’s a possibility.

  305. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    MattyC:
    ArgonathofBraavos:

    Let’s just be grateful that the show runners are smart enough to excise one of GRRM’s more glaring mistakes.
    I mean, think about it. As a plot point, where exactly is unCat going? Is she going to kill all the people that wronged her, and then crawl back into the grave? Silly.

    Hey, man.I get that your role here is to continuously prick everyone’s buttons, but I have to take issue with this statement.

    Your lack of ability to figure out where GRRM is going with any given character/plot/situation is not reason enough to dis-include said character/plot/situation from the series.I have no idea where MOST of the characters/plots/situations are headed.This is never more apparent than when I re-read, and remember what I was thinking would “for sure” happen to Ned, Robb, Cat, Renly, only to be wrong literally every time.

    Sure, now I can look back with clarity and see that things were not quite so shocking as I originally read them, and that there are in fact tons of clues and markers before a character dies.But usually, upon first read, these things are not as readily apparent.

    Even your supposed “silly” reading of UnCat is totally rooted in mythology.Coming back from the grave to set right some wrongs?Yeah, that’s never happened in literature before.Especially in fantasy.You must have hated the movie The Crow.“I mean, where’s this headed?He’s going to come back from the dead, kill everyone who murdered his fiancee, and then rest in peace for all eternity? Poppycock, I say!”

    I don’t dislike unCat because of the fantastical element of resurrection. I personally love the White Walkers, the wights, Beric Dondarrion, etc. My favorite elements of these stories are those that are rooted in mythology (which is why I’m part of the rather small “Bran” army, that enjoys his arc above all). I love the “LotR in reverse” element of ASOIAF, where myth and legend are returning to the world, rather than leaving it (as in LOTR with the passing of elven power).

    My primary problem with unCat is that she resurrects an earlier part of the story AND takes away from the Stark/ Tully children and survivors, who are on the road to attaining power, and hopefully justice (and a little vengeance).

    To me, unCat steals the thunder of Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Jon. They should be the ones we look to to bring justice to the Freys and the Lannisters, NOT an undead version of one of the victims.

    With “the Crow” he’s the only one that can enact vengeance (and I love that movie). In GoT, we have “The Children” to do that, and it’s a huge part of why I am so invested in those children.

    I think Benioff and Weiss also believe in that aspect of the storytelling. The parents and the eldest son of the Starks have been killed. Now it’s time for the children to rise, not the mother.

    The mother rising, as her children rise, would have been a jarringly inconsistent moment. I believe it would have been bad storytelling in the context of this season, which was very much about children coming into their own (Stark, Lannister and even Bolton!)

    Perhaps she will fit better into the thematic and narrative frameworks of future seasons?

  306. MattyC
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Your considered response is appreciated. Your tone in the post of yours I quoted is not.

    When you start a post in an unCat thread with “Think about it…” And then proceed to say that unCat is basically a pointless character, you’re saying that no one HAS thought about it, and if they had they would surely realize that she is foolish. So, responding with like 12 graphs is nice, but also sorta disingenuous.

    Further, as to your point about bringing up old plotlines, in the books a mere 250 pages or so separates the RW from unCat. If anything, it’s showing us that what we thought was a closed loop is, in fact, only the beginning.

    I had similar issue with Stannis and his arrival not providing the end of Watchers on the Wall, but that’s a whole other ball of yarn.

  307. fiu
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    No Turncloak is write Lena definitely suggests LS with this picture. I’m 100% sure that they recorded scene in with LS appears. During conference promoting season 3 GRRM said that he would appear on screen. In this moment D&D break into his speech and said that won’t happen this (3 season). And there was now scene with GRRM in this season. I’m sure he was on set Turing some LS scene.

  308. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    MattyC:
    ArgonathofBraavos,

    Your considered response is appreciated. Your tone in the post of yours I quoted is not.

    When you start a post in an unCat thread with “Think about it…” And then proceed to say that unCat is basically a pointless character, you’re saying that no one HAS thought about it, and if they had they would surely realize that she is foolish. So, responding with like 12 graphs is nice, but also sorta disingenuous.

    Further, as to your point about bringing up old plotlines, in the books a mere 250 pages or so separates the RW from unCat. If anything, it’s showing us that what we thought was a closed loop is, in fact, only the beginning.

    I had similar issue with Stannis and his arrival not providing the end of Watchers on the Wall, but that’s a whole other ball of yarn.

    I appreciate your response as well. I admit that my initial post was provocative, and I apologize for that. My only excuse, I suppose, is the sheer volume of vitriol being spewed at the showrunners for this omission, much of it highly emotional, intolerant and unfair. That said, I try my hardest to not replicate the worst elements of fandom when responding to that vitriol.

    I understand your point about the short amount of time separating the RW from unCat in the books. However, the show has decided to focus season 4 on how the children of Cat and Ned respond to the death of their elders. In that context, I think the resurrection of their mother would have been out of step with the averarching thematic thread(s) of this season.

    However, that doesn’t mean unCat coming back couldn’t help set the tone of season 5. Perhaps season 5′s thematic consistency will be centered around the severe difficulties the children face, now that they have decided to take their lives into their own hands, and they will have to in some ways rely on their elders again. In that context, I think unCat could work.

  309. Jon Blackfyre
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I dont care if LS storyline is going anywhere in the books or not it would just be a BADASS scene that would get a lot of people talking. but obviously it has to be. Shes killing all these freys and its just like the first 2 books always mentionaling these attacks that are happening in the riverlands by the BWB and we finally see them in book three. I assume since we have seen and heard about all these attacks from the BWB in books 4 and 5 there will be a big payoff in the next two books.

  310. DarthCrap
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    They better show everything about Arya in Bravos next season or the next. She’s one of the driving factors of the Stark bloodline and possibly one of the heads of the three dragons.

    She’s nasty.

    Face-off, Face-on, this is where the heart is, remember that.

  311. Charles M
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    A big problem as well with LS is that it ruins every death that comes after. No one is going to take anyone’s death seriously. It lessens the impact. We saw that when a character dies later on. No one believed it.

  312. Thomas Kenney
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    Most show watchers have probably forgotten who the Freys are by now anyway.

  313. Sean
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    Hey, stop being whingers and go out and create something yourself if you’re not happy. Its a big wide world, and you’re not allergic to life.

  314. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    So happy she was not in the finale!! I hope she is completely out.

    I haven’t read all the comments but have you guys considered that maybe Michelle Fairley has something to say about it?? Without her there’s no LS, they can’t recast her, and maybe she doesn’t want to play a zombie…just saying

  315. Pau Soriano
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 6:40 am | Permalink

    Lex:

    Alex Graves has screwed a few things up, and overall I’m not a big fan.

    First there was the “rape” thing, and now this exclusion of LS and Tysha. Maybe not crucial, but definitely disappointing. I also didn’t like Tyrion’s beetle-crushing monologue AT ALL in episode 8.

    Do you think the last 3 are Grave’s fault??? You gotta be kindding me!!! Those are D&D decissions man

  316. Nomi Sum
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    I’m on the side of the disappointed for LS exclusion. Still hope she’s in next season, though the rumours concerning Jaime make it appear less likely.

  317. Troublesome Birdsong
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Lena Headey was definitely trolling with that instagram photo.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FCkET4xELk

  318. toasty
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Joe Frost,

    Is this confirmed? I would be so happy to see him sit a season out (or even leave for good), his episodes stick out in all the wrong ways.

  319. Monica
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Resurrection is not a strong plot point?

    A woman whose children were viciously murdered, is bent on justice. Not a good story?

    What could be more juicy?

    I never thought that I’d disagree with Alex Graves so much. The rest of episode 10 was brilliant, by the way.

    Is it possible that LS might help Jon Snow in the future?

  320. Eljuma
    Posted June 19, 2014 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    I wish all the people in arms for LS’ not-debut-yet were really looking up to see her and not to feel smug watching the Unsullied’s reactions.

    And I really wish people aren’t just deciding AGAIN that if something doesn’t show up when they expect it, regardless of cinematic reasons, it’s because it has been cut, and X, Y, Z three seasons from now won’t happen as a result, and the show has been ruined forever and D&D are hags for it. Because that got old in Season 1 already. Do people really don’t learn, or just like to feel ‘victimized’ by the adaptation?

  321. Eljuma
    Posted June 19, 2014 at 5:53 am | Permalink

    A woman whose children were viciously murdered, is bent on justice. Not a good story?

    Only if there is a story. If she shows up for the sake of a final season cliffhanger and then doesn’t for a whole season, what’s the freaking point? People won’t be invested in the Dornish and Iron Islands arcs and their shit-ton new characters. They’d just keep asking where LS is, week after week.

    She has not been dropped, just pushed back, like so many other plot developments. In a book, you can throw any cryptic plot point you want and revisit it a thousand pages later. In visual media, there is a limit to that. And that’s not counting logistical features like bringing actors for 1 scene vs bringing them for a whole episode or a whole season.

    To make LS justified, they have to spend their time reintroducing the Freys and the Brotherhood. I bet they will have some scenes to do that over the course of S5, and then have LS as a reveal late in the season, when she meets Brienne and Pod.

  322. John
    Posted June 19, 2014 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Stop complaining and start reading this sentence again:
    “It just didn’t end up being a part of what was going to happen this season.”

    I think we’ll see it in S05E01

  323. AnneMarie Bowman
    Posted June 19, 2014 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    To Alex graves I would have to say, No, I wasn’t expecting to see “Michele Fairley kill a bunch of Freys.”

    But I was expecting the LS reveal.

    I wasn’t expecting them to jump to the end of Brienne’s AFFC storyline with the hanging. And I wasn’t expecting a literal word for word adaptation of the ASOS epilogue. I guess what I was expecting an Arya wolf dream/resurrection scene though.

    The farther away from the Red Wedding we get, the more difficult it will be to reveal this character. There is already a problem with the perception of the passage of time on this show. I polled my friends on how much time they think has passed this season, since the RW last season. To my best guess, I’m thinking like 4 to 5 weeks? I tried to gauge time by the major events that happened in the books and on the show, like the PW, Tyrion’s trial, the trial by combat, etc, and that’s how i came up with my guess. My friends all thought much longer- like half a year. What do you guys think? how much time do you think has passed?

    anyway…The way saw it in my head…the way the reveal could make sense… I decided to write it down and share it with all of you.

    And no- I DO NOT think I am a better writer than the guys who write this show. And I don’t even know how to write screenplays. I just saw it this way in my head and decided to write it down and share it. (my dialog can use some work for sure, BUT there wasn’t much dialog in these scenes)

    here it is:

    Scene:
    Arya sleeping (in the cabin on the ship) eyelids fluttering, she’s obviously dreaming.

    Cut to scene:
    Running through the woods, from the perspective of an animal (a wolf). Wolf looks to and fro, seeing its companions, a pack of smaller wolves. They’re running, through tree trucks, foliage, and come upon a river bank. They skirt the bank, there are bodies in the water, and on the shore. Men, corpses, in mail, leather, various states of dress and armor, with sigils of all the houses involved in the war of five kings, Bolton, Stark, Frey, Tully, and the lesser houses, bannerman of the major houses. The wolf sees something in the water, a flash of blue, a body in a dress. The wolf wades out, grabs the body by its foot and starts to drag it ashore. (frame: you can only see the foot and some blue cloth).

    Cut to scene:
    The Brotherhood without Banners, Beric Dondarrion , Thoros of Myr and their companions, walking through the woods, they are on alert, scanning their surroundings, and they also seem to be hunting something….Beric and Throros are chatting, apart from the main group.

    Dialog:
    Beric: I’m tired, my friend. The spark of life inside of me, it feels muted, weak. I do not feel truly alive. I don’t know how long I can go on like this. (or something like this, but you get the gist)
    Thoros: But what of our promise to Ned Stark? And to the smallfolk, who we promised to protect?

    A commotion up ahead interrupts their conversation, The group comes upon the pack of wolves on the riverbank. They see the wolves ravaging the bodies on the banks, and they see a VERY Large wolf dragging a body out of the water. The BWB companions start throwing rocks and shooting arrows at the pack, trying to shoo them from the bodies. The wolves run away, reluctantly.

    Cut to: Scene
    Arya, still asleep, suddenly awakes, eye snap open.

    Cut back to BWB, Scene:
    Dialog:
    Thoros: The carnage from the Twins has flowed downriver….all these men…sons, brothers, fathers…farmers and blacksmiths and merchants most like…a travesty…
    Beric: this one here, (indicating the one the large wolf had a hold of) Do I know this one…is it? Could it be? (a pause) I think there is a way to fulfill our promise to Lord Eddard…

    Scene: The Companions are surrounding Thoros and Beric, who are kneeling on the riverbank with the body. Thoros is praying, incanting words, and leans over the body, putting his face close to the face of the body. (This is seen from a distance, from the perspective of someone in the group. All you can see of the body is a bundled lump of wet blue cloth)
    Thoros finishes, kneels up, Beric falls over in the dirt. The body starts to rise, stands , hooded and cloaked, you see it rise unnaturally, ruined hands appear, and reach for the hood to pull it down…a shock of long white brittle hair falls out, camera pans up to reveal the horribly disfigured and ravaged face and neck of…Catelyn Stark?

    End scene.

    ok, well there it is. just the way i see it in my head. comments welcome.

    and for the record, I LOVE Michele Fairley, but technically, we don’t need her back to play Lady Stoneheart (as I said upthread) Prosthetics and CGI work wonders these days. Would I want her? yes, of course. But we really don’t need her if she’s not available or doesn’t ant to do the character.

  324. Jaison Biagini
    Posted June 19, 2014 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    in all honesty i don’t really care if they cut lady stone heart out. we have yet to actually know what impact she will have, and as far as i know it was one very brief scene. i feel cold hands was a bigger loss.

  325. That boy Ramsey
    Posted June 20, 2014 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    I think Ls has been cut entirely due to the fact that Jon might need the same sort of help in the future. It def Wud soften the shock factor if ppl were constantly coming back. Although I would love to see the epilogue from ASOS on tv.

  326. mortosivax
    Posted June 21, 2014 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Lady stoneheart isnt a zombie, shes a banshee xD She didnt use her voice anymore?… but i bett letting all her hatred and stuff boiling inside trough that nasty “undeadish” throat in a horrid scream of vengance was something thats..kindof implied in the books.. like something that could happen… Imagine her beeing presented with the option to “judge” roose bolton? Maybe screaming him do death hes like “omg its os horrid, what have we done” starts bleading out of nose,ears,arse *dead*. This.. also not gonna happen now =b removing her might not ruin the series. But its like removing all the Nymeria elements. Why not even the rumors of her attacks? All that epic wolfness… These elements are what contribute to the “Mystery” that feeling of an occult and subtle hint of fantasy that the books has, and the show hasnt. as much.

  327. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 22, 2014 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    AnneMarie Bowman,

    Unsullied I talk to believe years pass between seasons, particularly as the children have very clearly gotten older.

  328. Michael
    Posted June 23, 2014 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Immi,

    no she will be in s5. They have set her up now

  329. Michael
    Posted June 23, 2014 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    That boy Ramsey: Lady stoneheart isnt a zombie, shes a banshee xD She didnt use her voice anymore?… but i bett letting all her hatred and stuff boiling inside trough that nasty “undeadish” throat in a horrid scream of vengance was something thats..kindof implied in the books.. like something that could happen… Imagine her beeing presented with the option to “judge” roose bolton? Maybe screaming him do death hes like “omg its os horrid, what have we done” starts bleading out of nose,ears,arse *dead*. This.. also not gonna happen now =b removing her might not ruin the series. But its like removing all the Nymeria elements. Why not even the rumors of her attacks? All that epic wolfness… These elements are what contribute to the “Mystery” that feeling of an occult and subtle hint of fantasy that the books has, and the show hasnt. as much.

    no she hasn’t been cut. Why else all the forshadowing

  330. Michael
    Posted June 23, 2014 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Eljuma: Brienne and Pod.

    THIS. Anyone that thinks she is not included can not have read the books.

  331. Michael
    Posted June 23, 2014 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    My god some on this site can’t read at all so it seems. He did say there was no plans for her in “season 4″ not the entire show he even say she can apear later and she will why else was oathkeeper introduced why even put Pod and Brienne together and all the other things sorounding LS.

    She WILL appear. Man i am baffled by some here that can’t read an article properly.

    and Fairley wants to play the role. interview with Headey and Fairley from this year. This is AFTER season 4 had long been finished for them:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je2Ws5PJ7QM&feature=youtu.be&t =%205m53s


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