David Benioff and Dan Weiss on the finale’s big moments, and prepping for Season 5
By Lightbringer on in Interview.

Last night’s finale of Game of Thrones Season 4 brought to life some big moments that showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss, and fans alike, have been waiting for since well before the series began. In a number of new interviews David and Dan discuss those big moments, as well as some of the deviations, and look ahead to an intimidating Season 5.

In their interview with The Hollywood Reporter the showrunners admit that they are perpetually anxious about getting the show right, particularly last night’s finale which was so concentrated with important scenes. They also discuss their approach to deviating from the books, and looking ahead to the material for Season 5, there are some terrifyingly difficult sequences they will have to tackle.

What were you most worried about getting right for the finale?

Benioff: If we’re being honest, we worry about everything. Do you know how many anti-anxiety pills we chew every night?

A long time ago the wonderful writer Ann Patchett was my teacher in graduate school. She said a good story has to have some orange juice concentrate and some water: too much of the former and it tastes disgusting; too much of the latter and it’s watery. That was an important lesson and one we’ve tried to follow in this series. Some of our favorite scenes on the show are the quiet ones with two characters talking. But “The Children” is concentrated. From Stannis’ surprise attack to the battle with the Wights to the Brienne/Hound fight to Tyrion’s escape and the ensuing violence– on this one we just said, “F–k the water.”

Weiss: In past seasons, our final episodes have often been clean-up — exciting in their own right, but primarily concerned with addressing the aftermath of the momentous events of the episode before. This isn’t one of those. The finale of the fourth season is more blow-up than clean-up. In real life, blowing things up is usually a lot easier than cleaning them up, but on TV it’s a lot more difficult.

You broached beyond the books this season, and it was very positively received by fans. Are you able to share if we will see more of going beyond the books in season 5?

Weiss: We try not to talk about what’s coming in future seasons, especially while the current season is still airing. And when we’re not even finished writing the future seasons. I should probably be doing that right now, actually. The books are the reason we’re doing this, they’re our road map, and they provide many or most of our destinations. But there are many ways to get to each destination, and some are more appropriate for our show than others.

Benioff: We have to make a show that succeeds on its own terms, and sometimes that means veering away from the books. Some people will be upset by that. Some people will like it. Obviously we hope for more of the latter, but if we ever write a scene (or avoid writing a scene) because we’re afraid of pissing someone off, we’re sunk. As for season five, we’re still figuring out how we can afford everything we want to do. There are a few sequences that are absolutely terrifying from a production standpoint.

The pair explained some of those book deviations to Entertainment Weekly, including the brutal meeting of Brienne and The Hound, and their choice to seal Jojen’s fate a bit earlier than expected.

Let’s talk The Hound fighting Brienne. What inspired that clash?

Benioff: It felt right to us, these two pairings: The Hound and Arya; Brienne and Pod. Both are on quests. The Hound is trying to get Arya to the Eyrie; Brienne is trying to find the Stark girls. It felt right to us that those quests would collide at end of season.

Weiss: The Hound and Brienne are two people who, by the time we get them together, you’re sort of rooting for both of them, in a way. Brienne is obviously a more moral character than The Hound. But I would hope you can’t help but love The Hound in spite of yourself, a little bit. The idea they’re both going to try tooth and nail and sword to kill each other, there’s something classically epic about it. You got Achilles fighting Hector — there isn’t a good guy and a bad guy, it’s two people you’re both extremely invested in and there’s a fascination and horror of knowing that one of them is inevitably going to get the worst of this situation.

We lost a Reed in the finale! You couldn’t have possibly thought: “Well, not enough characters died this season,” so can you address that move?

Jojen is a bit like John the Baptist. He’s there to make sure a person of cosmic importance ends up where he belongs. Once Bran gets to the Three-Eyed Raven, he has served his greater purpose. It felt right to have him sacrifice himself to get Bran to his destination. Also, there are lot of wights in that frozen field. It seemed pretty unlikely they wouldn’t score at least once.

One scene that the showrunners kept relatively close to the books was Tyrion’s revenge on his lover and his father. David and Dan spoke with Deadline about how they approached Tyrion’s final moments this season.

“Both basic confrontations, Tyrion/Shae and Tyrion/Tywin, have their source in the books. It feels like the people who haven’t read the books will probably be pretty surprised by both scenes. We loved those scenes, and kept many of the broad strokes and particulars. To see Tyrion’s entire, troubled relationship with his father distilled into three minutes, that’s a lot of weight to put on two actors. It was our good fortune that the two actors in question were Peter and Charles, who are both power-lifters in this category.”

There is certainly a lot to take in from last night’s episode, and Season 4 as a whole. The stage has been set for Season 5, and David and Dan are determined to not let the audience down. “With our show, there’s sort of an unstated contract with the audience that each season will up the ante on the previous season, culminating with an ending that justifies the 70+ hours it took to get there.”

 


Winter Is Coming Live: Game of Thrones Season 4 Finale by Winter Is Coming

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165 Comments

  1. davyJones
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    jokerandherewego.gif

  2. manashima
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    70+ hours Cant help but think of 80 lol

    Or maybe an extended 7th season? Or a trilogy of movies? Something is that + lol

  3. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    “on this one we just said, F–k the water”

    They sure did. And Tyrions scene suffered for it

  4. GeekFurious
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    9.3 million watched the finale (over 2 viewings). 7.1 million during the 9pm hour (the NBA final probably a partial cause of that).

    I suspect that the season 5 premiere will break records yet again for HBO.

  5. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    D&D’s expert adaptation of an un-adaptable series is comparable to Tyrion’s saving King’s Landing: most will dismiss or pretend their input doesn’t exist…but I will never forget.

  6. Delta1212
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    manashima,

    Or “We only have a contract for 6 seasons at this point, we’re pretty confident we’ll get at least 7, but talking 8 or more seasons as being definite would be premature at this point.”

    I’m pretty sure that 70 hours is just their safe bet minimum and the the + is just their acknowledgement that 70 hours is far from set in stone.

  7. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    That was my only main gripe. Fuck Stoneheart. Tyrion’s stuff was so rushed, which was odd, given it’s importance.

  8. Echoes in a Well
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Thank you, deekan

  9. Alexander Pendergrass
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    “One scene that the showrunners kept relatively close to the books was Tyrion’s revenge on his lover and his father.” Bullshit. How can you say that when his motivation for the act on his father is completely absent from the show?

  10. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    I liked what they said about deciding when or when not to write a scene based on fan reaction. The commments during the LS debate that were particularly frustrating were ones that blamed D&D for cutting LS because they kbew there’d be backlash. Writers are not hostages of the audience, doing what they do out of fear of the fandom. Their focus has to be how to best execute the story in the best way possible, and they should never comoromise their creative instincts in favor of ticking off items on the fandom’s checklist.

  11. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    They seriously dropped the ball on that Tyrion scene and even unsullied like Oz and Andy Greenwald thought it was rushed. Overall the best season of game of Thrones but they limped through the finish line.

    Season Rankings
    1) Season 4
    2) Season 1
    3) Season 3
    4) Season 2

  12. Echoes in a Well
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yes Yes. The amount of whining on this site about LS makes it so I hope they don’t include her at all. Anyway, the idea of LS -Frey’s being killed off by something mysterious- is much much much more interesting than the character herself

  13. Kay
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Good interview. I am glad that D&D stay away from the message boards and write their own vision of the story.

    Alexander Pendergrass: How can you say that when his motivation for the act on his father is completely absent from the show?

    Huh. I haven’t read the books, and I saw plenty of motivation for Tyrion killing his father. This entire season’s worth, practically. In fact I saw so much motivation that I wanted to kill Tywin myself on Tyrion’s behalf.

  14. loco73
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    This interview I think gives people just a small sample of what these guys have to go through each and every season. The effort, the stress, anxiety and pressure they must be under is enormous…and they do it because they love what they do! They have gone through this for soo many years now…

    Think a little bit from their point of view, how long it has been since they have been involved with this project, from trying to get it off the ground to actually having a long-term financially viable show that not only entertains and appeals to the established fandom but also attracts new fans and viewers! We tend to think about D&D’s involvement with this show since 2011 onwards, but by that time they had been at it for a few years already…

    And then to get all the snide remarks, the constant complaints and people getting pissed off for whatever reason the see fit, throwing about ridiculous accusations and even worse insults…is that what these two guys have earned from us…our scorn or our thanks?

    In this instance they are in a Catch 22…damned if you do, do damned if you don’t…how can you possibly comply with everyone’s wishes and keep them happy, in light of what you see written on this and other sites? It is really sad that people don’t recognize the amount of work and self-sacrifice they, and all the other people working on this show, have done for us fans!

    Let others bitch and moan, I for one am grateful for their hardwork and will never forget that without them and George there would be no tv show!

  15. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I still think season 1 was the best, as I thought it gained momentum and sprinted through the finish line. Whereas, season 4 was the most steady season, it didn’t feature a single clunker, but didn’t have a top 5 episode either, IMO.

    1. Season 1
    2. Season 4
    3. Season 3
    4. Season 2

  16. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    loco73,

    Very well put. Whatever my criticisms of the show may be, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re doing a Herculean task while a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who couldn’t write their way out of paper bag (myself included here) pick apart everything they do. I’m so grateful that they took on this project and are going to see it through to the end. I think it will go down as one of the best shows in TV history. We should all be grateful and tell them “thank you” once in a while.

  17. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Kay:
    Good interview. I am glad that D&D stay away from the message boards and write their own vision of the story.

    Huh. I haven’t read the books, and I saw plenty of motivation for Tyrion killing his father. This entire season’s worth, practically. In fact I saw so much motivation that I wanted to kill Tywin myself on Tyrion’s behalf.

    You haven’t read the books so you don’t know what you’ve missed out on. Wish I had the same feeling, but this just feels so disappointing in comparison

  18. gewa76
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    loco73,

    The show is a bigger hit than anyone expected. For all the complaints, it’s created a whole new legion of fans who would have dismissed the books as geeky fantasy. Who cares what KhaleesiJorah4eva says, when they’ll be right back in front of their TVs this time next year?

  19. Overtone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    deekan:
    D&D’s expert adaptation of an un-adaptable series is comparable to Tyrion’s saving King’s Landing: most will dismiss or pretend their input doesn’t exist…but I will never forget.

    I haven’t read all of the books. I’m almost finished with Storm of Swords (only about 100 pages left). So far, every departure in the show that I’ve seen has largely been for the better.

    Sure, you don’t get as strong a sense for the lore in the show as you do in the books, and the books certainly have more characters. However, D&D have done an amazing job of bringing most of the characters and stories to life.

    Every choice they have made, and every departure, has largely been an improvement on the canon in my opinion, at least from what I’ve read. Tywin, Theon, Ramsay Bolton, and The Greyjoys, for example, are all better. Even Stannis and Melisandre come across a lot deeper and stronger in the show than they do in the books.

    Kudos and more power to them. I have no doubt that Season 5 will impress. Season 4 was outstanding.

  20. Sword of the Morning
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I read the books and I don’t feel like TV show viewers missed out at all. Show Tyrion doesn’t constantly dwell on Tysha like Book Tyrion does. Tysha is a memory, and memories are much easier for an audience to grasp in a book. Even in the book, it’s simply not the case that Tysha is the only motivation for killing Tywin. There are plenty of other factors that contribute to it, which the show made quite clear.

    Before we saw any trailers for season 4, book readers were really worried that Show Tyrion wasn’t going to kill Shae. Lots of hand-wringing around that. But then we saw a clip of Shae in Tywin’s bed, and book readers breathed a sigh of relief. Even then, I thought it wasn’t a big deal if D&D changed that plot point. It would have made a lot of sense if Tywin had her killed, since he threatened that in an earlier season.

  21. Laurentius
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    I really like this season and the episode was very well handled I think. And I think D&D have mostly done a brilliant job! And I know how Benjen Stark feels about what you say before the word “but”…

    BUT

    That scene with bran and the children? Fireballs and skeletons? Can anyone point out a single scene in all previous 39 hours in HBOs game of thrones that resonates well with this one. I just couldn’t believe it! Whose idea was this? It felt like they cut for a video game commercial for 5 minutes, and then the show came back and suddenly Bran was in a cave.

    Tell me they’re not going to look back at that scene and be happy with it!

  22. Brodor
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    People should just be happy they have a great adaptation here whether it strays a bit from the books or not.It’s outstanding. You want something to complain about watch a Harry Potter movie

  23. armsbendback
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    People who make sweeping overall scope criticisms of D&D seem to always have one flawed assumption. They see the show having the potential to start from 100% perfect and based on the books. Each deviation, ommission, addition, or change that D&D make not to their liking the subtract from that 100% and say how much better it should be.

    In reality, the show starts at 0% and has to be built up to work on TV. D&D+Nina Gold+so many others have done an amazing job to get so many things right in mood, appearance, casting, script, direction, story condensing and changing(which needs to be done and would need to be done by any other showrunner) D&D may not get the show to 100% but they raise it high, up into 90% or beyond, a solid A every year and sometimes A+ in certain episodes and scenes.

    Even though a different showrunner may get particular things “right” that D&D may have missed, there is no guarantee they would have even raised the show up from the 0% floor to the point where D&D consistently have it. So while someone else may have nailed the essence of certain things better, they may have made just as many misses, if not many more, on other key characters, points, plots, changes, etc.

    In summary, I have no issue with people who respectfully and intelligently want to discuss “missed opportunities”, but I have no patience or respect for those who constantly trash the efforts of D&D and the whole crew and cast who get so much right. Those people use the perfection of the limitless/budgetless books and the building blocks of everything D&D have done right to create a “perfect” GoT in their heads that could never exist. It’s beyond delusional.

  24. Overtone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: You haven’t read the books so you don’t know what you’ve missed out on. Wish I had the same feeling, but this just feels so disappointing in comparison

    I haven’t read the last two books yet. So I’m missing out on that. So if you can limit your critique to the first three books, what are people really missing out on that’s so different and amazing? Do tell.

    I’ve read those books and must say you would be missing out on more if you skipped the T.V. series. The books are great, and the deeper sense of the seven kingdoms and lore you gain from them is awesome.

    However, the series is pretty rock solid in its own right and actually better than the books in many ways.

  25. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Overtone,

    Yeah. There is no perfect way to adapt the books. They simply have to the best they can to make a independent series. That means making unnecessary nude scenes to get THAT type of viewer to come watch, cut excess fat to keep the casuals engaged and not too confused.

    This simply is Game of Thrones, and not A Song of Ice and Fire. I accepted that in season 2 and have been absolutely thrilled with the show ever since.

  26. armsbendback
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Laurentius:

    That scene with bran and the children? Fireballs and skeletons? Can anyone point out a single scene in all previous 39 hours in HBOs game of thrones that resonates well with this one. I just couldn’t believe it! Whose idea was this? It felt like they cut for a video game commercial for 5 minutes, and then the show came back and suddenly Bran was in a cave.

    Hmmm….
    How about:
    -The very first scene of episode s1, ep1
    -Dany sleeping overnight in a pyre of fire, surviving, and awakening with three dragons clinging to her naked body
    -Melisandre producing a murderous shadow killer from between her legs
    -The House of the Undying
    -A good portion of what happens north of the wall

    I mean I get your point if the only part of the show you ever watched was the Kinds Landing scenes.

  27. Genevosey
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:09 pm | Permalink

    Echoes in a Well,

    I didn’t even realize she was missing until I came on this site and read about it. Never cared for her.

  28. mariamb
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    loco73,

    Well said, both of you. I have my disappointments with certain elements and certain moments. I get past it. It doesn’t lessen my enjoyment of this show. Life throws enough curve balls at us…whether or not a particular scene was included in this episode isn’t one of them. This is a great story – in books and in TV.

  29. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Overtone,

    I was referring to the Tyrion and Jaime scene in the book in which we get the Tysha reveal. There are already a lot of unsullied reviewers complaining about how that Tyrion scene was rushed (Andy Greenwald, Alan Sepinwall Wall, Av Club, etc) and I tend to agree with them

  30. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    I loved the skeletons but hated the fireballs.
    Also, I wasn’t sold on Tyrion’s motivations.

  31. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    deekan,

    Also they didn’t have the Reeds, Ramsey and Blackfish, in seasons 2 (and season 1 for Bf) and they were pretty much all awesome characters..just because a character doesn’t show up at their expected time doesn’t mean their completely excluded. But if they don’t…oh well.

  32. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Sword of the Morning:
    Turncloak,

    I read the books and I don’t feel like TV show viewers missed out at all. Show Tyrion doesn’t constantly dwell on Tysha like Book Tyrion does. Tysha is a memory, and memories are much easier for an audience to grasp in a book. Even in the book, it’s simply not the case that Tysha is the only motivation for killing Tywin. There are plenty of other factors that contribute to it, which the show made quite clear.

    Before we saw any trailers for season 4, book readers were really worried that Show Tyrion wasn’t going to kill Shae. Lots of hand-wringing around that. But then we saw a clip of Shae in Tywin’s bed, and book readers breathed a sigh of relief. Even then, I thought it wasn’t a big deal if D&D changed that plot point. It would have made a lot of sense if Tywin had her killed, since he threatened that in an earlier season.

    Thank you! I’ve been trying to explain this to people since last night and it isn’t penetrating.

    People seem to not grasp that is a TV show. Not a book. They have to do what makes sense for the medium they are in. The Tysha revelation is great in the book. In the show it would have been clunky. They didn’t cut it out of spite or because they don’t care. They cut it because the majority of the audience doesn’t care about Tysha.

    People don’t want to acknowledge this though. They build up a scene in their heads and then get upset when it doesn’t play out as expected.

    There’s going to have be some major changes to make AFFC and ADWD work on screen so people had better get used to the idea that things aren’t to going to be as expected.

  33. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
    loco73,

    Very well put.Whatever my criticisms of the show may be, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re doing a Herculean task while a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who couldn’t write their way out of paper bag (myself included here) pick apart everything they do.I’m so grateful that they took on this project and are going to see it through to the end.I think it will go down as one of the best shows in TV history.We should all be grateful and tell them “thank you” once in a while.

    They don’t read the comments anyway.
    They probably read constructive reviews, though.

    It’s better that way.

  34. ramsayreek
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Pendergrass,

    uhhhh, what show were you watching? Tyrion had justification for his actions, even if they differed slightly from the books. That’s why they had him kill Shae before Tywin (unlike the books it’s tywin first) on top of the past two seasons where tywin repeatedly ‘shits’ on Tyrion.

  35. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Still, something was off about the scene IMO. I could get with it if it made more sense, but since when does Tyrion know all the tunnels of the Red Keep? And what was he planning to do once he found Tywin? In the books he planned to kill him but in the show I’m not sure he was quite “there” emotionally until after he killed Shae.

    And what was the point of using the book dialog after cutting Tysha? It made no sense that he didn’t want Tywin to say “whore” in the show. They should have rewritten that whole scene or kept the Tysha buisness.

  36. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    ramsayreek,

    He kills Tywin second in the books too

  37. smitzzz
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Pendergrass:
    “One scene that the showrunners kept relatively close to the books was Tyrion’s revenge on his lover and his father.” Bullshit. How can you say that when his motivation for the act on his father is completely absent from the show?

    Yeah Tyrion was totally loved by his caring loving father who has treated him so well his entire life , what possible reason or motivation could Tyrion have for wanting to confront his father who sentenced him to death and turned the woman he loved against him then slept with her , yeah it would have made much more sense for Tyrion and Jaime to have a argument about a plot point show viewers have heard mentioned maybe two or three times ( only in any detail 2 seasons ago) , yeah they should have had a fight about Tysha that wouldn’t have confused anybody would it? after all her name has been mentioned like zero times in the show…

  38. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    smitzzz,

    To be fair, if they’d set it up earlier in the season (for instance, in an Oberyn/Tyrion scene before the trial by combat) there would be no issue of remembering/understanding it. They deliberately cut it for their own reasons.

  39. ramsayreek
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Yup you’re right my mistake. Either way the justification is there

  40. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    I loved the skeletons but hated the fireballs.
    Also, I wasn’t sold on Tyrion’s motivations.

    I didn’t like either the skeletons or the fireballs. Felt to much like a video game. Loved The Hound vs Brienne. One my favorite deviations from the book to date. Also loved all of Arya’s scenes and the effing Stannis The Mannis

  41. Overtone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    deekan:
    Overtone,
    This simply is Game of Thrones, and not A Song of Ice and Fire. I accepted that in season 2 and have been absolutely thrilled with the show ever since.

    That is a very accurate description. The one thing you don’t get much of a sense of from the show is the Lore. The lore is intrinsic to the books and much more palpable in its pages; the histories, the tales, and the songs. You only get fragments of it from the show.

  42. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    IIRC the skeleton scene was similar in the books (excluding the fireballs). I guess they could have used normal wights, though. Would have saved a whole lot of cash for other scenes.

  43. Turncloak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Yup, Would have preferred normal wights like u said. I didn’t like the CGI, felt shoddy to me.

    Last time I’ve seen CGI that poor on this show was when The White Walker cracked Sam’s sword

  44. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Supposedly that fight costed a shit ton of money. Highest dollars/second rate in the series. It’s a shame they put in so much money and in the end a lot of people would have preferred them to cheap out. I still like it. And still HATE the fireballs.

  45. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Overtone,

    Yeah, that, unfortunately, is a limiting aspect of the medium that GoT is forced to adhere to. But they try to get some of the background and lore in the special features, but that is what makes reading the books fun. If GoT could do it all, then it would take that fun out of reading the books.

  46. Tessa
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Kay,

    It’s hard to see things from the perspective of an Unsullied for me as a book reader, but I really tried this time, since I felt the lack of reasons for Tyrion, and Í can see why you don’t think there is a lack and I also believe that Tyrion’s reasons were quite strong, but from my point of view it’s just been a truly illogical thing to do. I mean, he was escaping from KL with a possibility of having his head still on shoulders afterwards, so why would he go kill (it wouldn’t be that easy with Tywin in the room and the crossbow still on the wall)/visit his father and risk being caught and getting back where he was?
    The thing is, that in books he’s really angry at that moment because of some information he gets… whatever, it was just a bit weird for me.

  47. Laurentius
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    armsbendback: Hmmm….
    How about:
    -The very first scene of episode s1, ep1
    -Dany sleeping overnight in a pyre of fire, surviving, and awakening with three dragons clinging to her naked body
    -Melisandre producing a murderous shadow killer from between her legs
    -The House of the Undying
    -A good portion of what happens north of the wall

    I mean I get your point if the only part of the show you ever watched was the Kinds Landing scenes.

    To me all your examples worked miles better than skeletons and fireballs. I wasn’t saying magic isn’t part of the show, nor am I criticising however this might have differed from the books, I just think the scene was ridiculous.

    Let me reiterate, since I know how quickly lynch-mobs gather here: I loved the episode – but looked with disbelief at that scene. I may well be a picky bastard, or maybe I have other frames of reference, but I’m honestly surprised at how well this scene seems to have gone down with many.

  48. Rafael
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    loco73:
    This interview I think gives people just a small sample of what these guys have to go through each and every season. The effort, the stress, anxiety and pressure they must be under is enormous…and they do it because they love what they do! They have gone through this for soo many years now…

    Think a little bit from their point of view, how long it has been since they have been involved with this project, from trying to get it off the ground to actually having a long-term financially viable show that not only entertains and appeals to the established fandom but also attracts new fans and viewers!We tend to think about D&D’s involvement with this show since 2011 onwards, but by that time they had been at it for a few years already…

    And then to get all the snide remarks, the constant complaints and people getting pissed off for whatever reason the see fit, throwing about ridiculous accusations and even worse insults…is that what these two guys have earned from us…our scorn or our thanks?

    In this instance they are in a Catch 22…damned if you do, do damned if you don’t…how can you possibly comply with everyone’s wishes and keep them happy, in light of what you see written on this and other sites? It is really sad that people don’t recognize the amount of work and self-sacrifice they, and all the other people working on this show, have done for us fans!

    Let others bitch and moan, I for one am grateful for their hardwork and will never forget that without them and George there would be no tv show!

    I agree wholeheartedly. I hope that D&D will retain their sanity.

    I have no idea how they are going to tackle the fifth season. Numerous storylines, scattered main characters, slow plot development, enormous expectations and at the same time they are going to lose the advantage of finished source material. Phew…

    At the moment I’m a bit mad that they omitted Tysha but I understand their reasoning to do so. It would have confused a lot of unsullied viewers (although I still think that it would have been worth it). I don’t understand why guys are so upset about LS though. They can still include her if they decide to do so.

  49. Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    I hated skeletons and loved the fireballs! Oh well :)

  50. Tony
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    I do hope they dont recast Aimee Richardson for season 5.
    Rumors seem to grow stronger. Over a hundred tweets with the same message the last couple days (including Sophie Turner)
    That would ruin the Dorne storyline for me completely. Pointless recast of a talented actress who is perfect for the part… They better not!!

  51. Hoyti Von Totiy
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Those two hate Stannis.

  52. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Tony,

    It’s not looking good for her.
    I don’t see why, though. It’s not like the character had THAT much to do in the books so far and Aimee was perfectly capable from what we saw of her in the first two seasons (unless Myrcella becomes more important later?). To be quite honest, I’d take bad acting over another recast at this point and I doubt Aimee would deliver bad acting.

  53. Zangbangboom
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Hey D&D, this time I forgive you but please please no more stupid fireball throwing kids and cartoonish skeletons! That was a BIG No No! Ok? see you in a year…

  54. jentario
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Hoyti Von Totiy,

    It’s funny how the fandom jumps around between D&D “hating” some characters and “whitewashing” others. It makes you wonder if there is any way to get out of this without complainers. Probably not.

  55. Ye Olde Wolfe
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Alexander Pendergrass: “One scene that the showrunners kept relatively close to the books was Tyrion’s revenge on his lover and his father.” Bullshit. How can you say that when his motivation for the act on his father is completely absent from the show?

    If you think Tysha was Tyrion’s only motivation for that act, then you definitely missed a lot. I think the show did a good job of illustrating all the other motivations.

  56. fiu
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    They f*ck water and pissed into Orange juice fue times this season.

  57. jkb
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    just watched the finale, i liked it… a lot. ;p 3 beefes:

    - no tysha – oh well, made everything seem a bit too fast and it was a powerful moment in the book but i can understand why they changed it
    - editing on brienne vs. hound was kinda jerky, other then that awesome
    - no LS – if she’s in later all will be forgiven, if she’s not I WILL HATE D&D FOREVER AND EVER!!!!!!!!!!111

  58. brian
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    david and dan are a joke. fireballs? i mean really???? if the children can cast fireballs why don’t they just go melt the gigantic ice fortress that’s been depicted. oh, but wait. she can fireball jojens dead body, but not 30 seconds sooner to save his life? BAD WRITING. the worst part is the entire story is already written FOR THEM, but they add in their own weak writing constantly. cersie telling tywin about her and jaime?? WHY – if tywin is going to be dead at the end of the episode anyway? there is no reason to write that scene. then we get a bullshit response like stoneheart is too ‘unbelievable’ but the children of the forest can throw fireballs and the three eyed raven looks like his hair gets brushed 33 times a day….. fortunately this will be my last season. mainly because i don’t want to be spoiled by POOR writing. oh jon has time to go build a personal funeral pyre for ygritte. all of the men on the nights watch can go do whatever they want now.. there is no such thing as duty anymore. how much money did they waste on the skeleton scene – i can’t even imagine. i wonder what world they believe bones kind of just stick together when all the flesh has rotted away??? and doesn’t that ruin the entire point of burning dead bodies if now the skeleton can be revived anyway?? am i missing something or could a 12 year old make some of the arguments i am making?

    poor writing.

  59. brian
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    oh and if stoneheart is so “unbelievable” why add in the scene with beric coming back to life during season 3? they’ve laid the groundwork for stoneheart with their own show.

  60. ace
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Laurentius: To me all your examples worked miles better than skeletons and fireballs. I wasn’t saying magic isn’t part of the show, nor am I criticising however this might have differed from the books, I just think the scene was ridiculous.

    Let me reiterate, since I know how quickly lynch-mobs gather here: I loved the episode – but looked with disbelief at that scene. I may well be a picky bastard, or maybe I have other frames of reference, but I’m honestly surprised at how well this scene seems to have gone down with many.

    I know it did not make it to the episode, I guess if Melisandre threw that fireball to a warg eagle/owl you will not be ok with it either?

  61. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    brian,

    Ok
    If you burn bones they usually turn to ash
    How we do it where i come from

  62. Curos of Myr
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    This is more speculation than spoiler but I think they’re gonna bring in LS next season but switch S for A, of be fine with that .

  63. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    They dropped the ball with the Tywin/Tyrion/Shae showdown and it has nothing to do with the lack of Tysha though that probably would have helped give the scene a little but more punch. It was just tacked on at the end without any build and because of that fell mostly flat. It should have been a powerful scene but it wasn’t for me. The lack of build up to some of these big moments is something David and Dan need to work on. The Mountain Vs the Viper was another scene that was done disservice by just being tacked on at the end without proper build up. The entire episode 9 suffered from lack of build up. Building up to these moments is important otherwise they don’t have the dramatic impact they should. Imagine how different the audience reaction would be to the Red Wedding if Robb and Catelyn showed up at the Twins in episode 8 and then the only scene we saw of them in episode 9 was the finale one where they get killed. The scene wouldn’t have had nearly the same dramatic power because it would have just been tacked on at the end without any buildup to it. This is an issue they need to work on for future seasons and future big moments. I know it’s easier said than done though, it’s not easy having juggle all these plotlines and characters. I wouldn’t want their job.
    Also hated the skeleton wights, I don’t know what they were thinking with that. I guess they didn’t want the show to look like the Walking Dead in the snow. That scene could have been awesome if the wights looked more human and creepy and not silly CGI skeletons. Overall, it was my least favorite finale. It was still a great season but the finale 3 episodes were lacking imo and I would have preferred a much stronger final string of episodes to leaving me eager for more instead of being underwhelmed. After the first 7 episodes I thought for sure this would be the best season now I’m not sure how to feel.

  64. House Mormont
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    D&D know a LOT more about the Children of the Forest than we do. The children do use powerful magic, they blew up the land bridge between Westeros and Essos creating the step stones. So even though Leaf used natural fire in the book, maybe she was capable of shooting fire. we don’t know.

  65. frleon
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    It’s a pity how both the book-purists and the show-lovers are battling as if everyone had to belong to either side, 100%. I prefer the books and nonetheless love the show, D&D d o an amazing job here. When there is a deviation from the books I still use to raise a brow at first but almost all of them play out nicely in the end and I can see why they changed this and that. Be it Jojen’s death or the Talisa/Jeyne issue: These alterations do make perfectly sense to me and show that certain things work better in one medium or another. As someone stated above this is GoT and not ASoIaF.

    That being said: I h a t e d this episode’s Tyrion/Tywin scene and won’t cease to do so easily. It was one of my favourite scenes in the books and in my opinion they really spoiled this one. Granted, keeping Tysha in the unsullied’s minds would have been a difficult job, but hey, nobody said it’s gonna be easy to do this adaptation. The point is that she is the only person other than Jaime who ever loved Tyrion, loved him for who he is and not for what family he is from or how deep his pockets be. That is what Tywin took from him because of a morale that turned out to be hypocritical in the moment Shae had been found in his bed. In the show Tyrion is concerned for her minutes after he killed her – wtf! I also disliked the dialogue, and how Tyrion had to use the second arrow – this, though, is just my personal taste and nowhere near as fundamental as the Tysha issue. I could have dealt with that alone, but hear it adds to the general issues.

    Furthermore Jaime’s relationships are fundamentally different now. He reconciled with Tyrion a n d Cersei in the show, while in the books he is just as alone as his brother. Here I’m going to wait, however, for the fifth season. This arc is probably going to still be turned around somewhat, let’s see.

    Anyway: I’m really offended by some of the above comments where it is implied that critics of the showrunners’ decisions are hypocritical unless they stop watching at all. Of course I’m going to watch the next episode as soon as it is released, and no second later! If we didn’t love the show we wouldn’t bother to voice our concerns.

    Also I wouldn’t have minded a splash sound the moment Tywin died.

  66. King Stannis
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    brian:
    david and dan are a joke. fireballs? i mean really???? if the children can cast fireballs why don’t they just go melt the gigantic ice fortress that’s been depicted. oh, but wait. she can fireball jojens dead body, but not 30 seconds sooner to save his life? BAD WRITING. the worst part is the entire story is already written FOR THEM, but they add in their own weak writing constantly. cersie telling tywin about her and jaime??WHY – if tywin is going to be dead at the end of the episode anyway? there is no reason to write that scene. then we get a bullshit response like stoneheart is too ‘unbelievable’ but the children of the forest can throw fireballs and the three eyed raven looks like his hair gets brushed 33 times a day….. fortunately this will be my last season. mainly because i don’t want to be spoiled by POOR writing. oh jon has time to go build a personal funeral pyre for ygritte. all of the men on the nights watch can go do whatever they want now.. there is no such thing as duty anymore. how much money did they waste on the skeleton scene – i can’t even imagine. i wonder what world they believe bones kind of just stick together when all the flesh has rotted away??? and doesn’t that ruin the entire point of burning dead bodies if now the skeleton can be revived anyway?? am i missing something or could a 12 year old make some of the arguments i am making?

    poor writing.

    Reading your rant was poor writing. Seriously, the irony of you squares

  67. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    brian,

    Guarantee you will be watching next season just like everybody else who says they are done watching. I’d love to see you people stick to your word but I know you won’t.

  68. Angelo
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Kay:
    Good interview. I am glad that D&D stay away from the message boards and write their own vision of the story.

    Huh. I haven’t read the books, and I saw plenty of motivation for Tyrion killing his father. This entire season’s worth, practically. In fact I saw so much motivation that I wanted to kill Tywin myself on Tyrion’s behalf.

    He meant the real reason. That scene was all wrong, maybe because D&D, once again, wanted to to make Tyrion look better than what he really is in the books.

    They made Shae attack him first, so that people will understand that he had to kill her to defend himself. Next, they changed the order of the killings. He killed Tywin first, in a cold blooded manner. But this way, D6D wanted to add that Tyrion was hurt because of Shae’s betrayal with Tywin and having killed her, making him more emotional and somewhat more justified.

    I know every TV series has to have a hero, the good guy, but I was hoping that GoT would break that convention, but it seems not.

  69. Laurentius
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    ace: I know it did not make it to the episode, I guess if Melisandre threw that fireball to a warg eagle/owl you will not be ok with it either?

    I can’t comment on what wasn’t in the episode. That would all depend on how it looked and was executed, I guess. Look, I politely voiced an opinion, and then politely replied to a comment. Is there a need for that sarcasm? I’m not saying my opinion is better than yours or anything?

    What did you think of the scene?

  70. rollseyes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    Yea so fuck the source material right?

  71. rollseyes
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    But stories about eunuch romance and a “slow” lannister killing beetles… those are relevant? /facepalm

  72. phillipLocke
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    thought bloodraven lost an eye? goodlooks

  73. Arash
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    They managed to create perhaps the first truly embarrassing scene in GOT history! I am talking about the snow skeletons and yes the laughable fire balls! Couldn’t they just use dead people like the one who attacked Lord Commander in Season 1?

    I’m sure they would both save a lot of CGI money and also not have to deal with all these justified criticisms.

    Imagine if you are trying to convince one of your friends to get into GOT and as a promo that is the first scene they see! NO WAY that person starts watching the show unless is a 12 year old RPG gamer!

    And yes the shadow monster was also ridiculous but not this much!

  74. Overtone
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Laurentius: To me all your examples worked miles better than skeletons and fireballs. I wasn’t saying magic isn’t part of the show, nor am I criticising however this might have differed from the books, I just think the scene was ridiculous.

    I read a comment in another thread, (can’t remember where), that suggested the skeleton scene was purposefully done that way as an homage to the pioneering animator Ray Harryhausen of Jason and the Argonauts and the Sinbad movies, who passed away recently. Not sure if that helps the scene become more palatable to you, but might have something to do with doing the scene the way they did.

    And fireballs. I didn’t think those were so bad. That’s nothing compared to what I suspect is coming with Drogon loose. We should probably get used to fire, in all its forms.

    frleon:
    Also I wouldn’t have minded a splash sound the moment Tywin died.

    lol

  75. Rabid Grunt
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    brian:
    david and dan are a joke. fireballs? i mean really???? if the children can cast fireballs why don’t they just go melt the gigantic ice fortress that’s been depicted. oh, but wait. she can fireball jojens dead body, but not 30 seconds sooner to save his life? BAD WRITING. the worst part is the entire story is already written FOR THEM, but they add in their own weak writing constantly. cersie telling tywin about her and jaime??WHY – if tywin is going to be dead at the end of the episode anyway? there is no reason to write that scene. then we get a bullshit response like stoneheart is too ‘unbelievable’ but the children of the forest can throw fireballs and the three eyed raven looks like his hair gets brushed 33 times a day….. fortunately this will be my last season. mainly because i don’t want to be spoiled by POOR writing. oh jon has time to go build a personal funeral pyre for ygritte. all of the men on the nights watch can go do whatever they want now.. there is no such thing as duty anymore. how much money did they waste on the skeleton scene – i can’t even imagine. i wonder what world they believe bones kind of just stick together when all the flesh has rotted away??? and doesn’t that ruin the entire point of burning dead bodies if now the skeleton can be revived anyway?? am i missing something or could a 12 year old make some of the arguments i am making?

    poor writing.

    Ironic, seeing as that was a block of poorly thought out ranting rather than a well written critique. Pot calling the kettle black.

  76. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Angelo,

    Shae died first in the book too. Maybe check the books before you get outraged over a “change.”

  77. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    rollseyes,

    Jesus, my post wasn’t even about book purism. If you’re going to criticize a book change, all I’m sayibg is criticize it on how it affects the story. But to say that D&D should have put in LS purely because certain members of the audience wouldn’t have liked it is the laziest of criticisms. What would happen if writers only made choices they knew wouldn’t get a strong reaction from people? Would GRRM have killed Ned, or had the Red Wedding, or killed the book’s juiciest villain?

    Explain why you don’t like something instead of saying “this is my instant reaction and it should have been avoided eff you D&D”

  78. The Dragon Demands
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    One scene that the showrunners kept relatively close to the books was Tyrion’s revenge on his lover and his father. David and Dan spoke with Deadline about how they approached Tyrion’s final moments this season.

    WHAT? That was the one scene most drastically changed from the books!

  79. MRR
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Angelo: Next, they changed the order of the killings.

    What are you talking about? The killings happened in the same order in the books: Shae, and then Tywin.

  80. hedonism
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Prepping for season five is going to stress D&D more so than any other since the show aired, especially after the internet is buzzing more over anger on what was excluded than what was adapted wonderfully to the screen. There are murmurings already for next season over the vagueness concerning Arianne’s character and the possible recasting of Myrcella, the latter in my opinion would be an utter failure of D&D in terms of their connection with hard core show fans. Aimee Richardson has done a wonderful job in her performance as the only daughter of the incestuous twins, in fact she has grown even more beautiful over the two years since her last scene. To recast her is an insult to the actress and to the millions of fans that adored her show character. The supposed actress rumored to be close to replacing Aimee is in fact a year younger, and not as beautiful as Aimee, I have seen her pics and compared them to Ms Richardson. The only reason I can logically think for recasting is studio politics. Someone high up, in the entertainment industry is pressuring or being pressured to procure a higher profile role for Nell, because she is being groomed for stardom. I beg D&D to do the right thing and either keep Ms. Richardson or at the least give her an opportunity to re-compete for the role.

  81. Easteros bunny
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Game of Thrones has the absolute worse fan base in history.

    Every comment I read its either a book fan acting all high and mighty or a tv show fan acting snarky.

    Get over yourselves.

    The show is the show, the books are the books. Both have their positives and negatives. The show can’t put every single bit of backstory.

    I feel sorry for D&D when they have to deal with ungrateful little shits that constently complain. They are doing a great job.

  82. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    armsbendback,

    Hmmm….
    How about:
    -The very first scene of episode s1, ep1
    -Dany sleeping overnight in a pyre of fire, surviving, and awakening with three dragons clinging to her naked body
    -Melisandre producing a murderous shadow killer from between her legs
    -The House of the Undying
    -A good portion of what happens north of the wall

    No one is complaining that there are supernatural elements in the show. Just because some super natural elements work for the story does mean any and all are okay. The skeletons looked ridiculous and didn’t fit with the tone of the show. Wights are not supposed to look like that and the scene would have worked so much better if they used the look for wights they used in previous seasons. And actually the shadow birth was stupid but that’s mostly GRRM fault, I wish they filmed it differently and implied it more than show it so explicitly.

  83. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Ye Olde Wolfe: If you think Tysha was Tyrion’s only motivation for that act, then you definitely missed a lot. I think the show did a good job of illustrating all the other motivations.

    This is what I truly don’t understand. Tyrion’s motivation? His motivation to kill his father was years of his father’s taunts and jibes, his wanting to take him to the river and drown him when he was born; his father saying he was “an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning.”

    He has been hated all his life.

    Oh, and his own father sentenced him to death. There’s that.

    You know, usually the debate here about sticking to the books and fans’ bickering about what they think is wrong with the show, I usually just laugh and move on. But this time. Oh. My. God. Some of these comments are mind-boggling.

    I have an idea. For all the people who dislike the show so much, why don’t you pool your money and make a fan-made A Song of Ice & Fire film. I’d like to see it. Really. The hubris to criticize filmmakers and writers who have years of experience is beyond me. No, I’m not saying that just because they are professional filmmakers and writers that they are always right, but I am saying that they have more experience than you probably do when it comes to writing and adapting a show for television.

    Can you imagine the pressure? No. Can you imagine having to read all the source material and deciding what has to be cut for narrative construction and storytelling purposes?

    Good lord in heaven.

    I loved the fireballs.
    I loved Leaf.
    I loved Tyrion/Tywin/Shae.
    Just awesome.

    On the other hand, I hated episode nine. But NOT for deviations from the book. I just didn’t like the episode. Here’s another idea: try critiquing the show from a TV perspective…NOT based on the books! It’s not a blow-by-blow of what happens in the books! It’s a TV show.

    All this talk about Tysha or whatever the hell her name was. Who gives a flying F? Tyrion had plenty reasons to kill Daddy T. “Where do whores go?” WTF? Who cares that Tyrion asks this question in the books? You really think the average viewer is going to remember a scene about Tysha? Some whore that Tyrion mentions to Shae and Bronn from season two?

    Ok. I must. Stop. Typing.

    Goodnight.

  84. TheWolfofWinterfell
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    deekan:
    D&D’s expert adaptation of an un-adaptable series is comparable to Tyrion’s saving King’s Landing: most will dismiss or pretend their input doesn’t exist…but I will never forget.

    Thank you! Finally, someone says it right.

  85. Jeb
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Angelo,

    Do people even read the books? Your the second person within a few posts to claim that Tyrion kills Tywin first in the books.

    He doesn’t.

  86. Melanie Estes Fuller
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    loco73:
    This interview I think gives people just a small sample of what these guys have to go through each and every season. The effort, the stress, anxiety and pressure they must be under is enormous…and they do it because they love what they do! They have gone through this for soo many years now…

    Think a little bit from their point of view, how long it has been since they have been involved with this project, from trying to get it off the ground to actually having a long-term financially viable show that not only entertains and appeals to the established fandom but also attracts new fans and viewers!We tend to think about D&D’s involvement with this show since 2011 onwards, but by that time they had been at it for a few years already…

    And then to get all the snide remarks, the constant complaints and people getting pissed off for whatever reason the see fit, throwing about ridiculous accusations and even worse insults…is that what these two guys have earned from us…our scorn or our thanks?

    In this instance they are in a Catch 22…damned if you do, do damned if you don’t…how can you possibly comply with everyone’s wishes and keep them happy, in light of what you see written on this and other sites? It is really sad that people don’t recognize the amount of work and self-sacrifice they, and all the other people working on this show, have done for us fans!

    Let others bitch and moan, I for one am grateful for their hardwork and will never forget that without them and George there would be no tv show!

    Perfectly said! Thank you!!!

  87. Ashara D
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    jentario:
    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Still, something was off about the scene IMO. I could get with it if it made more sense, but since when does Tyrion know all the tunnels of the Red Keep? And what was he planning to do once he found Tywin? In the books he planned to kill him but in the show I’m not sure he was quite “there” emotionally until after he killed Shae.

    And what was the point of using the book dialog after cutting Tysha? It made no sense that he didn’t want Tywin to say “whore” in the show. They should have rewritten that whole scene or kept the Tysha buisness.

    Tyrion knows the tunnels because he used to have that bedroom and snuck out to see Shea. I got the impression that his emotional state was such that he didn’t know what he was going to do when he went there; he just had to see his father before he left. Haven’t you ever been in such a state that you were unsure what you wanted to say or do? Then, when he arrived and saw Shae and she grabbed the knife, my heart just broke because if only they could have talked honestly-trusted each other-they wouldn’t have been so afraid of each other. A real tragedy. And Tyrion just repeating, “I’m sorry:” sorry for bringing her there, sorry for not being able to love her enough, not being able to trust her enough, sorry for their different stations in life, sorry for so many things. Heartbreaking, and made perfect sense.

    Then, after all of these thoughts, there’s the crossbow, just screaming at him to use it in his anger to get back at the father that could never love him enough, never say sorry, never care or understand. Totally made sense to me once I let my understanding of the book! situation go. The dialog was all there, ready to be slightly rearranged to fit the show! circumstances. I loved the scenes, and Peter and Charles Dance launched them straight into my heart like the crossbow bolts.

    As for the wights scene, the fireballs were a little shocking, but it got me thinking about what the end game will bring re: the Children. And I enjoyed the skeletons as an homage to Ray Harryhausen. ;)

    Glad there was no LS.Perhaps we’ll see her later.

    Can’t wait for the surprises waiting for ALL of the fans in the next season! And for the next book to appear very soon. I’m still holding out for early 2015.

  88. DH
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    This is what I truly don’t understand. Tyrion’s motivation? His motivation to kill his father was years of his father’s taunts and jibes …

    The question over Tyrion’s motivation is not why he killed his father. It’s over why he was willing to risk throwing his _own_ life away by sneaking into the tower of the hand in the first place and face the strong possibility of being caught.

    He just received a new lease on life moments before, was thankful for his release, and simply had to exit the door and board the ship to keep on living, so why did he take a huge gamble by climbing into the Tower of the Hand? There is no sudden new injustice, twist, need for revenge, or sudden irrational emotional motivation for him to do so in the show like there is in the book. Tyrions speech and case against his father is also significantly weaker in the show. Tywin “knew” Tyrion didn’t kill Joffrey and was going to get rid of him anyway? That’s an incredible disservice to the plotters and how well he was framed. Everyone thought he really was responsible for killing Joffrey, and Tyrion knew full well he had presented no evidence to the contrary, so holding the desire to execute him for the murder is not a very large sin to hold against his father meriting his death in particular, when everyone else in King’s Landing was guilty of that belief as well.

  89. Ashara D
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Overtone,

    Ah! You beat me to it! Sinbad, baby!

  90. AVoiceInTheCrowd
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    I remember when I first heard the news that “A song of ice and fire” was going to be made into a t.v. show. I thought this could be good, but in a bad way. Remember Hercules, Xena and Legend of the Seeker? Those were the high bar for anything in the fantasy sub-genre that ASOIF belonged to. So if you were a book reader, and your being honest, then D&D has far exceeded any reasonable expectations you would of had for the show.

    I like the books better than the show. But, I understand that they are two completely different mediums. What works in one doesn’t work as well in the other. So, it’s kinda sad but mostly annoying to read how some of the other book readers think that D&D are messing up the show.

    I think G.R.R.M is a great writer, but if he were the show runner, GOT would be a hot mess. And if you can’t see that, well, then you haven’t been paying attention.

  91. Saar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but I read an interesting interview from GRRM about the finale.
    He was asked a question if Tywin knows who Shae really is (in the books and show) and if he knows she’s the whore he didn’t want Tyrion to bring to court.
    GRRM said that Varys has something to do with that, something that hasn’t been reveiled in the books, which will probably be very different in the books than it will be in the show.
    Any thoughts about that?

  92. Ashara D
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    DH,

    Tyrion’s motivation to be there is the same as it has been all his life-the irrational belief that his father will some how, some way, recognize him as a son and show him the love he has missed. He does things that are not logical (see not leaving KL when he could have with Shae) for this reason throughout. Tywin is aware of his penchant to do this, and tries to manipulate him even as Tyrion is aiming the crossbow at him: “You are my son…You are a Lannister…Let’s go talk about this in my chambers…” The trauma of killing Shae changes this behavior pattern. Frankly, this makes more sense to me than the long-ago Tysha stuff in the books.

    WOO-HOO!! USA WINS!!

  93. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    DH:
    Hollyoak,

    The question over Tyrion’s motivation is not why he killed his father. It’s over why he was willing to risk throwing his _own_ life away by sneaking into the tower of the hand in the first place and face the strong possibility of being caught.

    He just received a new lease on life moments before, was thankful for his release, and simply had to exit the door and board the ship to keep on leaving, so why did he take a huge gamble by climbing into the Tower of the Hand? There is no sudden new injustice, twist, need for revenge, or sudden irrational emotional motivation for him to do so in the show like there is in the book. Tyrions speech and case against his father is also significantly weaker in the show. Tywin “knew” Tyrion didn’t kill Joffrey and was going to get rid of him anyway? That’s an incredible disservice to the plotters and how well he was framed. Everyone thought he really was responsible for killing Joffrey, and Tyrion knew full well he had presented no evidence to the contrary, so holding the desire to execute him for the murder is not a very large sin to hold against his father meriting his death in particular, when everyone else in King’s Landing was guilty of that belief as well.

    Fair point, DH,

    To tell the truth, I WAS wondering where he was going. And I fan-wanked that he went looking for Shae. But why would he look there? I don’t know. I just saw it as a show-thing, and cut the writers a break because he had to get there for some reason. I’ve only watched once. Was there any mention from he or Jaime on why he went into the Tower of the Hand?

    If not, I still don’t think it’s a reason for fans of the show to go nuts. Thanks for your civil tone.

    By the way, my lengthy post wasn’t directed at you, Ye Olde Wolfe. I agreed with what you said!

  94. EverydayImHodoring
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    Fuck Tysha. #BOOM

  95. Tatters
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    JamesL,

    Mhysa mhysa mhysa?

  96. DH
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    He does things that are not logical (see not leaving KL when he could have with Shae

    If you are referring to Season 2 Episode 10, I don’t see how refusing to leave was illogical. He logically believed his talents lied at court, as did others who complimented him on his skill such as Varys, he enjoyed it, and his father Tywin was also giving him access to an enormous sum of wealth and disposable income which he would not have if he left. If you are referring to a later episode, then he was simply restating his preferences which he stated in Season 2.

    Tyrion’s motivation to be there is the same as it has been all his life-the irrational belief that his father will some how, some way, recognize him as a son and show him the love he has missed.

    But Tywin is NOT exceptionally hateful of Tyrion, nor does he have a huge desire to be rid of him. Perhaps you are thinking of Cersei. He gives him access to enormous sums of wealth and gives him the opportunity to serve in King’s Landing has Hand of the King, affirming in Season 2 that Tyrion is indeed his son when doing so. Tyrion full well acknowledges in Season 1 that had he been born a peaseant, a different father would have most likely left him out in the woods to die.

    And moreover, Tyrion is a thinker capable of plotting. Why would he suddenly decide climb the tower of the hand at the last minute for a motivaiton or cause which you believe to not be a new development, but to have been constant his entire life?

    There is a substantially more explicit, excellent, shocking, and thrilling explanation for all of this in the book. Now, the show is still okay, but perhaps you can better understand why people familiar with Martin’s original characters are hesitant to endorse the shows representation for this episode.

  97. Hollyoak
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Ashara D:
    DH,

    Tyrion’s motivation to be there is the same as it has been all his life-the irrational belief that his father will some how, some way, recognize him as a son and show him the love he has missed. He does things that are not logical (see not leaving KL when he could have with Shae) for this reason throughout. Tywin is aware of his penchant to do this, and tries to manipulate him even as Tyrion is aiming the crossbow at him: “You are my son…You are a Lannister…Let’s go talk about this in my chambers…” The trauma of killing Shae changes this behavior pattern. Frankly, this makes more sense to me than the long-ago Tysha stuff in the books.

    WOO-HOO!! USA WINS!!

    Someone just spoiled my evening. Just sat down to watch on DVR. Thanks.

  98. chamush
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    I am a big fan of the show and since I really care about it should say this:

    The Bran scene with the skeletons/fire ball was an absolute DISASTER! it looked like a stupid video game!!

    Give me 2.5 hours of beetle crushing conversation but c’mon….WHAT WAS THAT???

    Someone had to be high when writing/making that scene. It really undermined the show…the show has to have magic like the source material but they had done it smart up to this point…that was just an all time low point.

    Sorry, just stating the obvious. Hopefully we can erase this scene from our memories and move on!

  99. Jebe
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Saar:
    don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but I read an interesting interview from GRRM about the finale.
    He was asked a question if Tywin knows who Shae really is (in the books and show) and if he knows she’s the whore he didn’t want Tyrion to bring to court.
    GRRM said that Varys has something to do with that, something that hasn’t been reveiled in the books, which will probably be very different in the books than it will be in the show.
    Any thoughts about that?

    There’s a theory that Tywin never even knew that Shae was in his bed. Rather Varys had planted her there for Tyrion to find to make sure Tyrion does end up killing Tywin.

    Presumably Varys had told Shea the plan was for her to seduce Tywin and not to be strangled by Tyrion.

  100. Shane
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    If Shae is working for varys would that mean bronn is too .. Didn’t he find Shae and bring her to tyrion

  101. Saar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Jebe: There’s a theory that Tywin never even knew that Shae was in his bed. Rather Varys had planted her there for Tyrion to find to make sure Tyrion does end up killing Tywin.

    Presumably Varys had told Shea the plan was for her to seduce Tywin and not to be strangled by Tyrion.

    I just went back here, because I came up with this idea, but its already mentioned I see ;p
    That really sounds like something GRRM would do, and it would explain why the show and book would differ a lot in that way.
    In the show it seemed to me that Varys went with Tyrion because they found out that Tywin was killed and it would have been too dangerous for Varys to return to the city now, because his absence might me noticed, or does anybody think there’s another reason? (obviously D&D did this to give Varys more screen time, instead of loosing him next season)

  102. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Hollyoak,

    I gotta say. I’m a positive dude, that’s how I get shit done. I wish no ill will on anybody. But I will admit there is some satisfaction in watching somebody so prone to complaining, complain more. The great feedback loop that is life. Remember, input/output, always.
    USA wins is all over the Internet.

    There is much talk about Tyshagate. Has anybody mentioned the lack of “she’s been fucking Lancel, Kettleblack, Moon Boy for all I know”… ? I am a little baffled by Jaime/Cersei at this point. Not complaining, really, just confused.

  103. JamesL
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Tatters,

    Yes, the Mhysa scene is another example of a scene just tacked on at the end of an episode with no build up whatsoever and falls completely flat because of it. I’m not sure if that’s what your comment was implying though…

  104. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I don’t know where they are going with Cersei and Jaime, but I’m not sure I can see this Jaime refusing to champion Cersei in her trial by combat. Maybe she won’t even ask him? Speaking of that TBC, I wonder who will fight for the faith? I know there are theories that Sandor will, but he has a lame leg.

  105. deekan
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    I hate that other people’s attitudes can completely ruin my enjoyment of perfectly good episodes…it’s “Breaker of Chains” all over again. Loved that episode, can’t re-watch it because I can almost feel the fan base hate pouring out of the screen because of “the great controversy of our time.” But this will be worse because this has to be, in my opinion, one of best episodes of the whole series. One day I’ll have the strength to quit this site…so much negativity.

  106. Aphrodite
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    I am unsullied but know about the Tysha part in the books unfortunately from spoilers. But what I can say is that the books were written before the actors brought the characters to life. I love the relationship with Jaime and Tyrion and would hate to see that end due to the Tysha revelation. I liked the way things ended with the two of them on the show. Many times a character in a book becomes well liked in a movie or series because of the actors who play them. And I don’t think the unsullied want to see a rift in Tyrion and Jaime’s relationship. There is enough death and families ripped apart as it is. I would be ok with the Tysha revelation if Tyrion did not disown Jaime because of it. I think perhaps D&D’s motivation was not to change the book so much as to preserve the great Tyrion and Jaime dynamic that has really been solidified all season.

    That being said, I don’t think the scene lacked punch because it left out the tysha disclosure. I think it lacked punch because as someone said the lack of buildup. IMO there needed to be dialogue between Tyrion and Shae. I wanted to see his rage building and just did not see it. It felt rushed, I wish they shortened some other scenes in order to add more to this one.

  107. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    That’s a good question. I always assumed it would be Sandor reborn, but he looks really, really beat up now. And it sure as hell ain’t gonna be lancel. Loras? Naaaa. Sandor will probably just heal up, and maybe David v. Goliath round 2 will be a lame dog v. the Volcano. We’ll see.

    At this point, Jaime and Cersei should be done. Cersei should freak out that Tywin is dead and burn the tower, but given last nights episode she should almost feel… Relived that Tywin is outta the way?
    Perhaps the end of Jaime/cersei will be a confession that he freed Tyrion. She goes crazy, sends him away and burns down the tower, and he…. Loses interest? I dunno. Clearly kettleblack and moonboy are not around, but there was a Lancel name drop this season and I expected the Tysha/lancel revelations to go hand in hand. They inform each brothers actions from here out.

  108. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    Aphrodite,

    You make a good point, for sure. As I said in my previous comment to ser pimpslap, there were actually a couple revelations as Jaime set his brother free, and BOTH characters move forward with those motivating factors FIRMLY in mind, perhaps too much so. I agree that show Tyrion had plenty of rationale for killing pops, despite no mention of Tysha, but the scene did also feel pretty rushed. They just needed another minute or two, and a couple quick lines to inform viewers how the hell Tyrion knew where he was, what he was doing, etc….

    Despite all these nitpicky details, it was a really great episode with many really cool moments.

  109. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Aphrodite,

    And yeah, brotherly love and all that as well, didn’t mean to sidestep your point :)

  110. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    I’m assuming Lancel will return next season, and confess to sleeping with Cersei and the whole deal with strengthening Robert’s wine. I just wonder if the TBC will happen next season? There is a bunch of speculation about one of the two battles being moved into season 5, but I rarely see any talk about Cersei and Margaery’s trials. We know that the faith militant will be included, and I’m not sure the show can leave both TBC for season 6. Although, I suppose with ‘Aegon’ closing in on King’s Landing, those trials may not even happen.

  111. Saar
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    some people here seem to forget that casual viewers of the show have no fucking idea who Tysha is.
    Books and tv are really different, we know everything about Tysha in the books because we read Tyrion’s thoughts and memories.
    To just have Tyrion kill his father for a character that the normal viewer doesn’t know or care for would be stupid, it would feel as a new plot point for Tyrion to go find her, which would be cheap

  112. Moët
    Posted June 16, 2014 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    deekan: deekan
    POSTED JUNE 16, 2014 AT 3:09 PM | PERMALINK
    D&D’s expert adaptation of an un-adaptable series is comparable to Tyrion’s saving King’s Landing: most will dismiss or pretend their input doesn’t exist…but I will never forget.

    Brilliant post. Thank you. Totally agree.

  113. maia
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    rollseyes,

    don’t forget crowdsurfing…..

  114. Turncloak
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    What is TBC?

  115. Colty
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    deekan,

    YES. THIS. ALL OF THE WAY.

  116. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Trial by combat.

  117. Jon
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    The white knight defense of D&D is a little overbearing. They’re allowed to make mistakes, but let’s not pretend that they didn’t make one. The Tyrion/Tywin scene loses a huge part of its impact without Tysha. It doesn’t even matter if the casual viewer doesn’t remember, they’ll pick up on Tyrion’s pure rage at his father that orchestrated the most traumatic moment of his life. It would have been so easy to replace the Beetles scene with an offhand remark with Jamie and Tyrion in prison, which gives Jamie the idea to mention it while he frees Tyrion. Easy, bam, done.

    They’ve done a really good adaptation for the most part, but let’s just call a mistake a mistake. Removing Tysha kills the mood of the scene. Without that anger, without Tyrion learning that new information, he’s just going through the motions of what Tyrion does in the books because that’s what the books say he’s supposed to do.

    They got this one wrong. They got the ending of last week wrong, too. It’s a little surprising, they’ve had so few misses and to have two in a row is almost unheard of, which is a real credit to how good a job they’ve done so far. They’ve improved the story more often than they’ve harmed it, but they screwed up this scene. Most adaptations would have FAR more errors than this.

  118. Kay
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Turncloak: You haven’t read the books so you don’t know what you’ve missed out on. Wish I had the same feeling, but this just feels so disappointing in comparison

    I know I am missing out on everything that is in the books but not in the show. But I am very much enjoying the show. That is not something that some book readers can say, though, right? They are so overwhelmed by the disappointment that their imagination is not playing out onscreen exactly that they can’t enjoy the show for what it is. I understand the feeling. I felt the same way about Lord of the Rings. The films can never match my own personal imagination from the books. GoT is my favorite show at present and I am happy that I remain oblivious to what I missed out on. And I am not going to start reading the books until the author actually completes his book series, whenever that might be.

    Tessa: but from my point of view it’s just been a truly illogical thing to do. I mean, he was escaping from KL with a possibility of having his head still on shoulders afterwards, so why would he go kill (it wouldn’t be that easy with Tywin in the room and the crossbow still on the wall)/visit his father and risk being caught and getting back where he was?

    For me the reason is simple. For weeks, Tyrion has known that his father – his own father – sentenced him to death for a crime he did not commit. This is his father. The psychological damage caused when a parent does that is nothing, nothing compared to a sister’s hatred. Or the entire world’s hatred. Yes, he was about to escape King’s Landing with his life. But in that moment, emotion took over, and he wanted to ask his father, WHY? Why did Tywin hate him so very much? If I put myself in Tyrion’s shoes, I would have given into the same stupid urge: confront my parent as to why they hated me so terribly much. Finding Shae in Tywin’s bed, was what hardened Tyrion and made him take the crossbow. From watching the scene, I didn’t get the impression that when Tyrion first decided to pay Tywin a visit, it was with the intent to kill.

  119. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    DH,

    Tywin hates Tyrion in both the book and the show. I mean, just look back at the conversation they have at the beginning of the third book and tell me Tywin doesn’t hate Tyrion. It’s actually similar to Cersei’s hate, it stems from Tyrion killing his mother on the way out.

    Yeah, Tywin gives him money, and gives him opportunities to succeed, but that is all with the interest of the larger family in mind, not out of love of Tyrion.

    Tywin doesn’t love Tyrion, but maybe, just maybe, he does respect him. Which was explicitly stated on the show. So I really don’t see any difference between the Tywin-Tyrion relationship in the book and the relationship on the show. If anything, that relationship might be one of the elements of the show that most closely resembles the book.

  120. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’m pretty confident that next seasons arc for cersei will see her decent into madness/power struggles with power/margaery and tommen paranoia/reinstating the sparrows and culminating with her jmprisonment. Do you think her jmprisonment/judgement/walk if shame will happen next year? I think that, and likely the TBC will be season 6 stuff.

    Saar,

    Dude. What are you talking about? They told the whole Tysha story in season 1, and have alluded to it several times since- even during his imprisonment in his conversation with Jaime. It would not have taken much to bring everybody right up to speed. I have more faith in the intellect of the “average viewer” than you, it would appear. Also, I don’t remember Tyrion going looking for anybody.

    I’m not arguing for the sake of. I’m ok with adaptations and am grateful for the show, by all means. But I’m not gonna let you roll up with a passive aggressive comment like that when it would appear that you are confused on a number of levels.

    .and a good day to you, ser!

    He peed on your rug? He peed on your fucking rug.

  121. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    I actually liked the Tywin-Tyrion portion of the episode more than in the books. The conversation the two had then was what felt rushed to me, and was essentially Tyrion asking Tywin where Tysha was a couple times before he shot the arrow. No particularly memorable lines besides “Wherever whores go.” I couldn’t help but think that their last scene was actually the weakest scene that the two characters shared in the books.

    In the show, their conversation was more encompassing of their whole relationship. Tywin discussing how he had always wanted Tyrion dead, but that he still respected him, was a bit that was not in the book version of the show, and was actually a nice revealing line about what Tywin thinks of Tyrion…before he gets it.

    And, you know what? Even with Tyrion remembering Tysha frequently in the books, it still wasn’t that powerful when he was talking about her. I actually thought that replacing that motivation with one that was more Shae-centric made the scene more powerful, because we actually got to see their relationship on screen.

    I would also add that while I thought the Jaime/Tyrion portion was a bit rushed, and while I would have enjoyed getting one line in from Shae before she bit the dust, I thought that the privy scene was paced well and lasted as long as it needed to.

  122. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Just reread your comment and it seems I misread you. Definitely, the faith militant will be reinstated next year, and yeah hopefully lancel comes back with the confession….(maybe that happens just after Jaime is sent on a quest… And the letter arrives, exposing what shes in for and turns him) but I don’t think we’ll get all the way thru her walk next season… Seems like a lot of ground to cover. You may be right, we don’t know if we’ll see both TBC in the books, let alone the show

  123. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    I didn’t have a problem with the pacing once Tyrion and Shae started to fight, but like you said, the Jaime-Tyrion departure was rushed, and I didn’t understand how Tyrion knew the inner workings and secret passages of the Red Keep, and why he decided to pay daddy a visit instead of high tailing it out there. That’s what I thought was missing. I can get over Tyrion not going into a deep depression over Tysha, even though I thought it was very impactful on his psyche in the books, but I felt something needed to spur him into risking his life to confront Tywin after he was given new hope. The acting was superb, as usual, and Charles Dance will be severely missed. I think there will be a groundswell of support for him to be nominated for an Emmy, and believe being such a respected actor, and being on the ballot for the first time, he may just win it.

  124. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    Lena seemed to hint in an interview that she believed it would be in season 5, and that she had discussed it with D&D. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t next season. The walk of punishment(or whatever it was called) seems like a great episode 8-9-10 moment. If I had to guess, I’d say it happens in episode 9.

  125. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 2:05 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think Jaime giving some explanation as to why he is, now, letting Tyrion go, would have been a really smart decision. It not only would have let us dwell a little more on that escape, but it would have addressed another issue I have with the escape (books and show) that the escape could have happened back in episode 3, but for writer-induced reasons it happened after all the drama we’ve seen this year.

    Agreed on the knowing how the Red Keep is organized, I think it was probably confusing to some how Tyrion knew where he was going. I kind of think they established enough of a reason for him to address Tywin. I mean, the guy sentenced him to death the day before, his dad was actually going to let him die for a crime he didn’t commit, I think that surprised Tyrion and really upset him. Plus, he’s probably always wanted to have an honest chat with the guy, but he was never in a position to crossbow threaten one out of him. That’s just my take though.

  126. Overtone
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    DH:
    Ashara D,
    But Tywin is NOT exceptionally hateful of Tyrion, nor does he have a huge desire to be rid of him.

    This simply isn’t true. Watch the privy sequence with Tyrion and Tywin again. If I recall correctly, part of the conversation went something like this (paraphrasing):

    Tyrion: You’ve wanted me dead my entire life.
    Tywin: Yes. But you keep surviving despite it all.

    In other conversations in previous episodes, Tywin has been clear to Tyrion that he despises the Imp, and that the sole reason he is alive and not dead, is simply because he is a Lannister.

    Now I’m no psychologist, I only play one on the Internet, but the above certainly qualifies as hateful.

  127. strokememarge
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    dragonreborn,

    She is not going to be in the show now, because the cat is out of the bag, the internet hoopla over it has ruined the dark mystique of the character. Besides the show is well past the events which centered on the character, even a couple of characters that interact with her have progressed past those book events. D&D have said the show is going 7 or 8 sesons at the most. There are two books left and the next is as big as book 3, on which season 3 and half of 4 are based. They definitely are saving most of 6 and 7 and hopefully 8th for those final two books. The show has progressed halfway into book 5 for some characters and halfway into book 4 for others, while some have just reached their points in book 3. This is an indication D&D have to remove many elements from books 4 and 5 to leave most of season 6 and then 7 for the final two books and probably an 8th season (which is almost a given at this point with GoT becoming HBO’s flagship program). Therefore D&D have to decide which elements are truly needed to progress the story along, and that is the determining factor on what is incorporated into the series.

  128. jentario
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 3:18 am | Permalink

    Ashara D,

    It’ll probably come out much better on rewatch. But I still don’t see why he kills Tywin because he says “whore”. In the books, Tysha wasn’t a whore so it makes sense. Here Shae was very much a whore,

  129. jentario
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 3:32 am | Permalink

    Saar,

    They should have invented another catalyst, then.
    And honestly, with the right set up throughout the season, even Tysha could work.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    It’s an episode 10 moment or an episode 1 moment IMO.

    Jon,

    This here…

  130. Leo
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 3:53 am | Permalink

    strokememarge:
    dragonreborn,

    She is not going to be in the show now, because the cat is out of the bag, the internet hoopla over it has ruined the dark mystique of the character. Besides the show is well past the events which centered on the character, even a couple of characters that interact with her have progressed past those book events. D&D have said the show is going 7 or 8 sesons at the most. There are two books left and the next is as big as book 3, on which season 3 and half of 4 are based. They definitely are saving most of 6 and 7 and hopefully 8th for those final two books. The show has progressed halfway into book 5 for some characters and halfway into book 4 for others, while some have just reached their points in book 3. This is an indication D&D have to remove many elements from books 4 and 5 to leave most of season 6 and then 7 for the final two books and probably an 8th season (which is almost a given at this point with GoT becoming HBO’s flagship program). Therefore D&D have to decide which elements are truly needed to progress the story along, and that is the determining factor on what is incorporated into the series.

    LOL out of all the “LSH is cut because X” this one takes the cake. The cat is out of the bag? Show based on a book series. Yeah, cat is out of the bag on the whole show. Or were you not here last year when 60-70% speculated LS appearing in the S3 finale and there was a backlash then and the Internet turned out just fine?

  131. Syrio
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    AVoiceInTheCrowd,

    Agreed. Adopting this series into a show is a Herculean task. Have they made missteps along the way? Sure. They were never going to be able to satisfy everyone. I think the previous poster comparing to Tyrion’s defense of KL is apt. They are never going to get the credit they deserve for getting this whole series into a show.

    Think about it, most people didn’t even think a series was possible, and even most ardent fans were just hoping it doesn’t get canceled quickly and last 2 or 3 seasons.

  132. Arya's Nose
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    Shouldn’t Sati be here to tell everyone how she can do soooo much better than D&D? Or is she saving for that for her blogspot, along with a spot of ‘Emilia Clarke is so much prettier than me, so I have to say some incredibly nasty things about her’.

  133. GRRMlin
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Say what you will about D&D, and there is a lot to say, but they are experts at dumbing down complex storylines for the casual audience. Good job guys!

  134. WinterRy71
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    My dog took a horribly smelly shit on the floor about 1 minute before Tyrion killed Tywin. I was pissed, but then thought that maybe it would add a special something to the scene.

    It didn’t. It simply smelled fucking terrible.

  135. Ionuts
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    deekan,

    Very well said.

  136. GRRMlin
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    WinterRy71,

    The scene was worse than the dog sh*t.

  137. Sunfyre
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Thanks everybody, this thread delivers the lulz! Such an epic battle between the book-purists and the show-apologists. It’s too bad we couldn’t get Neil Marshall to direct it.

  138. Rygar
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    GRRMlin,

    I hear you have a big fat cock. I have a big fat cock. Why dont we rub our fat cocks together? A little oil. Two fat cocks. Oil.

  139. GRRMlin
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    Rygar,

    No thanks

  140. Valaquen
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    jentario:
    Ashara D,

    Here Shae was very much a whore,

    She used to be. Tyrion stopped paying her long ago and the relationship continued.

  141. Mister Stoneheart
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    D&D missed an epic moment with the decision to cut the LS reveal, something that only would have boosted discussion and interest during the off months. It was an absolutely missed opportunity. It is now too late to include the missus in the show.

    And that’s fine. I’m looking forward to where they’ll guide the show, I am little miffed to not see the Lady, and slightly concerned about where Brienne is headed storywise, but all will be revealed.

    No reactionary chair-tossing anger here from a Book Reader, just disappointment at a missed opportunity. That’s all. See you in Season 5.

  142. biobi
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Here’s the thing about the fireballs. If the Children of the Forest had that power, how would any of what’s going on be possible? The First Men? The Long Night? Shit, they could just hang out in the trees and rain down fireballs on everyone.

    Cheese

  143. jentario
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    And then she fucked Tywin. Or are you implying that they fell madly in love?

    And again, I don’t hate the show or D&D but I do think they’ve made mistakes (this being one of them). They are great at their job and deserve an award for bringing the complexity of the books to the small screen in such great quality (most of the time), but what they did with Tyrion in this episode didn’t feel quite right to me. And removing Stoneheart or Arianne would also be bad moves in my book.

    Still a fan of the show, though.

  144. jentario
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    biobi,

    Maybe they don’t want to set the forest on fire? Just spitballing

  145. Justin DiMatteo
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Brodor: People should just be happy they have a great adaptation here whether it strays a bit from the books or not.It’s outstanding. You want something to complain about watch a Harry Potter movie

    Sorry, but yours is the only attitude I downright dislike when it comes to discussing anything. People should “just be happy”. I love this show, but everyone’s entitled to their opinion, and no matter which side of an argument you’re on, it’s not cool to tell a group of people they should be quiet and be grateful for what they have. If every single fan was 100% satisfied and never had any disagreements over this series, the internet would be a boring place indeed.

  146. biobi
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    Well, that’s kind of a good point actually. It would be pretty ironic for the Children of the Forest to start a massive forest fire.

  147. Chris77
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    WinterRy71,

    Hahaha

    I liked the Tyrion Tywin scene, but felt that the Jaime scene could have been a bit more intensive, but overall I liked that scene.
    Though I liked the Episode 9 ending, after watching 10, I think it would have been way better to have put the whole Jon scenes in Ep 9 (Stannis and the funerals) since 9 was I think only 50 odd minutes long and it would have freed more time for the finale. The Arya, Brienne, Hound scenes were great. Dany was good and I liked the Bran scenes as well, the wight animation was top notch IMO. I don’t remember if Jojen bit it in the books as well, I remember him being very weak, but I don’t know if he already died. Bloodraven was a bit of a letdown though.

  148. Ser Hodor Halfmast
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    The way I saw it, those corpses must have been dead for so long that there was barely any meat on them anymore. Hence the skeleton look.

  149. ted
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    I liked the fireballs but not so much the skeletons. I recognize that I could be the only one who liked the fireballs.
    I thought the fireballs made the children surreal, mythical, their power beyond that of anything/anyone else. In retrospect, I think they are consistent with the children in the book.

  150. CinnLaFey
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Why is it that people think that Tryrion didn’t know the about the underground passages under the Red Keep???? Varys takes Shae to the Hand Tower to meet with Tryion. Shae and Tryrion have a conversation about how she got there. He even looked for the passage. Before the battle of Blackwater, Maester Pycelle gives Tryion a map of the all the tunnels running under the Red Keep as well as the tunnel system under Kings Landing.

  151. Nomorefilling
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Please, David and Dan, stop the stupid filling with characters we do not care! We do not give a fuck about GreyWorm Missandei and Hot pie! If that is what took time away from the Tyrion’s escape scene and Lady Stoneheart (one of the most amazing epilogues in the HISTORY of literature), you can cut it out, please! ASOIAF has enough characters to spend air time in them! I don’t care about adapting (like Brianne and the Hound), but cutting the detonant from Tyrion’s fury (Tysha) and not giving at least a glimpse of the direct retribution from the evil that was the red wedding, which undoubtly is Lady Stoneheart, even when you already presented Dondarrion and Toros… That is just wrong. Shame on you!

  152. Nomorefilling
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    And don’t get me started with the lack of any info about Balon Geyjoy or the fact that you miss Mance’s horn! That was just cruel! I don’t care about Ramsey fucking that red head or Yara/Asha rescuing Theon ir even Theon being tortured that long! (Season III) you, David and Dan, have a lot to make it up about on season 5! Don’t fuck it!

  153. Radnacs
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    I definatley hated the fireballs and skeletons, it seems to me it was a waste of CGI, the scene would have been much better off with normal wights. They could hae invested that money in doing something more interesting with Bloodraven, that just looked like a random old guy.

  154. NotangryatD&D
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    armsbendback,

    Have you read the books?

  155. Sunfyre
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Nomorefilling:
    Don’t fuck it!

    This post deserves some kind of award. You hear that D&D? “Don’t fuck it!”

  156. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin:
    Say what you will about D&D, and there is a lot to say, but they are experts at dumbing down complex storylines for the casual audience. Good job guys!

    Some of the dumbest people I know are always going on about how “complexity is smart.” The truth is, simplicity and brevity can be smarter. Just because there’s a bunch of complicated plotting in a book, it doesn’t mean its of very high quality. Benioff and Weiss are very good at getting to the heart of stories and characters. You call that “dumbing down.” I call it “smarter story-telling.” I like GRRM, but I think the show-writers are more talented than he is (though they do slip up from time to time, as does GRRM).

  157. Salty Dornishman
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Sister Wrister,

    That rug really tied the room together, did it not? :-)

  158. Sister wrister
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Sunfyre,

    Seconded. THis has become an amusing thread.

    dragonreborn: fuck you

    That’s good for a laugh.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I remember hearing about her interview where she acknowledged being okay and prepared for that scene, I don’t remember the season associated with it. I guess that makes sense to push the whole fall from (your?) grace through in a season as it makes a cohesive arc, and the series seems to be moving things ever more quickly. Also makes sense given this years cersei treatment… People may have somewhat mixed emotions about her…. Departure from the books?? Or just good TV! It will be a wild ride for sure! Headey may have her shot at an Emmy with this material.

    Either way, it seems TBC, prolly a season 6 thing. Plenty of time for the hound to get used to his new prosthetic leg, courtesy of the seven! (Tax write off)

    Just thinking…. Imagine a cliffhanger Robert Strong would be, picking her up as she reaches the gates to the Keep! Damn…

  159. Sister wrister
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Salty Dornishman,

    You said it man. Lol

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree with what you say up until you take sides. I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that DnD are more talented storytellers because they can adapt source material in a way that better suits their medium, which I agree they do. But the leap to “more talent”…. Might as well get yourself a jump to conclusions mat. They wouldn’t have a story to tell without the creator himself.

  160. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    Sister wrister:
    Salty Dornishman,

    You said it man.Lol

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I agree with what you say up until you take sides.I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that DnD are more talented storytellers because they can adapt source material in a way that better suits their medium, which I agree they do.But the leap to “more talent”…. Might as well get yourself a jump to conclusions mat.They wouldn’t have a story to tell without the creator himself.

    Fair enough, though I’m not really “taking sides.” I’m just making an observation (and a personal judgment) based on watching the show, analyzing their adaptation choices, and listening to their commentary. I think D&D approach the source material with literary seriousness, and that raises the level of the adaptation far higher than, say, Peter Jackson’s shallow treatment of an incredibly deep story.

  161. ArgonathofBraavos
    Posted June 17, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    dragonreborn: fuck you

    Clear, concise and to the point. I like it.

  162. Casso
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    biobi,

    We don’t necessarily know that all children of the forest can throw fireballs. If we judged the capabilities of humans in general based only on our observations of Melisandre, or Bloodraven, or Thoros, or Danaerys, or Bran, or Jaqen, we would conclude that the white walkers are more of a joke than a threat.

    We know that those particular people are rare exceptions, rather than typical examples of humanity, because we’re familiar with a lot of more ordinary people as well (in the story and in real life), but we don’t have the same level of familiarity with children of the forest. It’s quite possible that Leaf is as much of an exceptional Child of the Forest as Melisandre is an exceptional human.

    Also, we don’t really know what the limits of the fireball power are. It’s quite possible that there is some significant cost that we just aren’t seeing at first glance, in the same way that the shadow babies drained Stannis, and the repeated resurrections drained Beric.

  163. Sister Wrister
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 2:15 am | Permalink

    ArgonathofBraavos,

    I hear ya. I loved LOTR since I was a kid, and the second two movies were terrible CGI fuckfests….

    Regrettably, I have not even cared enough to have seen the hobbit movies yet. That bums me out, I’ll go ahead and blame Jackson

  164. ummester
    Posted June 18, 2014 at 4:48 am | Permalink

    Disclaimer – I have not read the books but I love the show. Really love it, have re watched all episodes multiple times and think it’s one of the best things I have seen on any kind of screen.

    The skeletons and fireball throwing child of the forest do not work. In my opinion that scene is the most out of place and worst in the entire series. Not to mention a magical barrier that turns skeletons to dust.

    Why they don’t work is because the supernatural elements in the rest of the series have earned their place in the story telling. All other supernatural elements are carefully woven into the story and delivered with explanation and foreshadowing, in a way that more realistically suspends disbelief.

    How can skeletons screech if they have no lungs? It belonged in Jason and the Argonauts, not Game of Thrones.

    Perhaps the wood nymph can throw fire, perhaps she can’t. That is not the issue. The issue is that it wasn’t delivered in a realistic way that would suspend the viewer’s disbelief, as every other supernatural scene in the show has been delivered.

    And the magical barrier that turns skeletons to dust – WTF???

    I can elaborate on how these other supernatural elements are better delivered for the overall tone that Game of Thrones has set but I am sure that faithful and intelligent viewers can work out the differences for themselves.

    As I have said, I have not read the books, so this is not about which is better for me. It’s about a single scene that was handled very poorly in an otherwise brilliant show.

  165. Bryan Dowling
    Posted June 23, 2014 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m still unsure about book 4 and 5 being done in 1 season but if David and Dan think they can do then they should give it a try but it’s going to be tough without cutting pivotal moments.


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