The Rings of Power star Trystane Gravelle explains why Pharazôn is a "good leader" (Exclusive)

The fifth episode of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power just dropped on Prime Video! It was a big episode of Ar-Pharazôn, the Númenorean nobleman who successfully usurped the throne from Queen Regent Míriel. He spent the episode gazing enviously at the eternal shores of Valinor, planning to suppress the Faithful on Númenor, and contemplating using the Palantír, the elven artifact that he used to turn the tide against Míriel.

As in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, Pharazôn bristles at the ban of the Valar, the gods of this world. They gave the Númenoreans long life...but not eternal life like the elves have. The Valar gave the Númenoreans their island home, but forbid them from sailing west to the sacred land of Valinor, where the gods themselves dwell with the faithful elves. Increasingly, Númenor is divided between the Faithful, who still revere the Valar and the elves, and people like Pharazôn, who think Númenoreans got a raw deal.

If you ask me, Pharazôn is starting to give off some serious pride-goeth-before-the-fall vibes; if you're familiar with the lore of Middle-earth as set out in the appendices to The Lord of the Rings or in The Silmarillion, you know this leads nowhere good. But Welsh actor Trystane Gravelle, who plays Pharazôn, sees it differently. We had the pleasure of talking to Gravelle about how he sees Pharazôn, Pharazôn's goals, his justifications, his grudge against the elves, and more. Read our exclusive interview below!

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

WinterIsComing: So we've seen Pharazôn conspire to take the throne, and now he has the sceptre. How much of Pharazôn's ladder-climbing is about wanting to satisfy his personal ambition, and how much is about his earnest belief that he will be better for Númenor, and that Míriel needs to not be in charge of things?

Trystane Gravelle: I think they go hand in hand. I think when you look at the history of Númenor, it was this Garden of Eden. There was a kind of animism going on, like this beautiful, respectful dance between the Númenoreans, the humans, the men and the animals and the wildlife. They had a mutual respect, and this wonderful relationship. They crossed paths. The bears danced for them...And all of a sudden, somewhere down the line, there was a disenchantment. And [the Númenoreans come to believe that] things are there to cater to them now...It becomes very sort of biblical. Everything on this island is there to cater to us...[W]e're going, 'well, we don't have thousands of years to develop a relationship and wait for the ocean to calm down or to watch a tree grow and become its friend. You know, we we don't have that. Nature for us, as men, is to to be overcome. We have to overcome nature, and it's rough and it's got its trials and tribulations, and it's got its hardships. And then once we complete that, we look back on what we did with ego and pride and hubris, and we indulge our id, our inner chimp. And we go, 'what next? What is there now to do?'

Pharazôn is very cognizant. He's going, 'Yeah, you say we're on this paradise, but we're not allowed to go west.' Okay, so there are rules. And we have the "gift" of mortality, the "gift" of death. The elves don't have that. Oh, clever wording. Well, why is that? Is there something afoot? Because we feel like maybe we're being treated like second-class citizens.

History gets lost...It can get distorted, what the elves did and the relationship that men and the elves had and stuff with Elros and Elrond and everything. But that can kind of get lost. And I think we're on a path here where we go, 'I think we need to celebrate who we are and what we do.' And I don't think we need to go down this kind of sclerotic kind of route of going, 'Oh, well, you know, the elves did it so much better.' No, we're our own people. We're our own race and let's celebrate who we are. So I think that's in Pharazôn's mind.

Also, he's very utilitarian about things. Everything is there to serve a purpose. A lot of people attach morality to that, and I find that sometimes a little bit arrogant, because it's just jumping the gun with judgement, firing from the hip. Because you've never been in a position. We've never been in a position of of being in charge of this empire, of this kingdom. And so you need to toughen up and pull yourself together if you're going to do this, you need to use whatever's at your disposal, or whoever's at your disposal, to do that, to get things done, because there's so much more than just yourself and what you perceive as being right or wrong at stake. There's the livelihoods of everybody else on this this island and how they will be remembered. And also: what is the point of them on this island? Is that about to change?

WiC: So it sounds like Pharazôn to you is thinking bigger than, 'is it right or wrong to overthrow this person?' He has a bigger aim in mind that's more important to him.

TG: Definitely, definitely. And everybody has their ambitions as well. So you have the macro and there's the micro of going. Because chancellor was the highest [position] he could have been. He's been a sea captain, he's done what Elendil has done. And in season 1, we see Pharazôn as chancellor. Okay, but he's so much more than that. You know, he's quite the philosopher. He's been this warrior sea captain. And we see him as chancellor in these in these slacks, you know, these silks. And there's there's a sort of...not a complacency, but there's an indulgence in that role, which is very typical of the world of men. And now, all of a sudden, we see him regain past glories and we're going to see him become who he was. And there's a second wind. And that's intertwined with your mortality as well, going, 'well, how long will this last for?' And that that comes with its own desperation and fear. Say, for instance, when you have a second wind of going, 'My God, I'm really benching 100 kilogrammes or doing the pull-ups at the gym. How long is this going to last for before one my tendons gives way?' I hate to be so crude about it. But, yeah, we're seeing this guy rediscover his past glory. And what is the shelf life of that? Because, you know, they're not an elf.

WiC: I really liked the scene in Episode 5, where you're with your son Kemen. And you're looking out talking about Aman, the Elven land, and wondering, 'Why should they have immortality?' I liked it because there was a lot of high fantasy drama and an air of hubris. What was it like a play that scene? I'm not sure you can watch the show if you're a Lord of the Rings fan and not know where this sort of hubris leads. Are you playing that as an actor? Or are you just in Pharazôn's head in the moment?

TG: I think you've got to just be in the character, and delve into the character's reality. And that's the beautiful thing about it: there's no judgement on that character, you know? You shouldn't really judge anybody unless you really know them. (Easier said than done, of course.) And of course, by the time you have a real grasp and know about this character, you're too far in anyway. You have to come out and look objectively at it. You know, there are certain things that are not justified. They're not excused, they can't be. But nonetheless, there is a greater good, the cliche at play here.

I think going back to that scene is is interesting, because now that that glass ceiling has been broken for him. And what next? There are new possibilities. I don't know whether we can say endless possibilities. But there are certainly a lot of possibilities at play here now. And you get a second sort of cognitive evolution going, 'I can act on what I'm thinking now. I can act on my thoughts.' And what are the ramifications on that? And who do I need by my side for that? So that was an interesting scene.

[It was] also a good scene to try and bring my son up to speed [and tell him], 'dispense with morality and think about what you need to do for your people, how we are going to be remembered.' So that that was an interesting one. Because when you look at it, you go, 'Wow, that's an abusive relationship right there.' That really is quite a nasty game of chess that he's giving his son a crash course in. But the reality that they live in is very different from the reality that we live in watching it from the comfort of our coaches, going, 'Oh, well, I'll make myself another cup of tea, you know?' You know, we know what's going on in the news and stuff, but sometimes we're so oblivious to the hardships that are going on in the world. But I think Pharazôn is very, very aware of how that could easily slip, and the potential to better that for his people. So he's in a much more informed position than most of us.

WiC: Can I ask about the really brief scene where we see him kind of stalking toward the Palantír, which was used to oust Míriel. And I guess I the obvious question there is, 'What's he thinking?' Does he want to use it? And if he is thinking of using it, how does he square that in his head, considering he just condemned the last ruler for using it?

TG: Well, just because you don't agree with what the Faithful are doing doesn't mean that you have to be rigid. Pharazôn, in season 1, you hear him speak of [King] Tar-Palantir, and there are Quenya* words he uses. He's more than happy to use Quenya words. It's not totally rigid; that would be one-dimensional. He uses that because that's a way of getting across to the people. But now we need to go in this direction.

And you look at some of the buildings and some of the stonework in Númenor. It might be Elven. He wasn't gonna go, 'Oh, we need to knock that down' or anything. You go, 'It is what it is.' And so the utilitarian in him would go, 'What is for the best?What do I need to know?' Because obviously, people know things. They've seen things. I need to be up on it ,because he does fancy himself — and I believe he is — a sort of Garry Kasparov, Magnus Carlsen, chess player, you know? He's got to be got to be up on any sort of — I hate using the word technology, just doesn't sound right — these artifacts that have different properties. If they're going to be beneficial, you've gotta see what you can utilize out of it. I think that's what a good leader would do.

Thanks to Gravelle for making time to talk to us! New episodes of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power drop Thursdays on Prime Video.

*Quenya is an Elvish language

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