The Shadow Rising is the fourth book in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series. It's considered one of the best entries in that series, and it forms the basis for the upcoming fourth season of Prime Video's The Wheel of Time TV show. What better time to talk about its strengths and weaknesses? Below, WiC editors Dan Selcke and Daniel Roman do just that. BEWARE MAJOR SPOILERS!
DAN: This is my first time reading through The Wheel of Time novels, and I'd always heard that The Shadow Rising was a big book for the series. Now I see why. I was starting to get a little tired of every book before this climaxing with Rand al'Thor winning a fight against Ba'alzamon, or Ishamael, or whatever name he's going by at this point. My favorite thing about The Shadow Rising was how many new storylines it explored. There was a lot of variety and novelty here.
And as much as there was going on, I don't think any of the stories really overpowered the others. I liked Nynaeve and Elayne's adventures in the city of Tanchico, especially the climax where Nynaeve faces down the Forsaken sorceress Moghedien; those powerful channelers are more fallible than I first assumed, but they're all interesting, and I like the way they fight each other as much as they fight Rand and company. The coup at the White Tower was exciting, and I enjoyed heading back to the Two Rivers with Perrin.
All that said, the highlight was probably Rand's trip into the Three-Fold Land, or the Aiel Waste, or whatever name it's going by at this point. My favorite part, and I'm going to guess this is pretty common among more seasoned Wheel of Time fans, was Rand's journey back in time as he learned how the peaceful Tuatha'an (or the tinkers, or the traveling people, or whatever name they're going by at this point) went through a schism in the distant past, with some breaking off and becoming the warlike Aiel. I didn't see it coming. It was one of several developments that made it feel like this world and this story was cohering.
I have some complaints, but why not start positive? Did you have a favorite part of The Shadow Rising, Daniel? Or maybe a least favorite?
DANIEL: Admittedly, it's been quite a few years since I read The Shadow Rising, but something that stands out to me about it is how many of those major moments you mentioned and more still ring clear in my memory. This is a big book for The Wheel of Time series. It's where Robert Jordan stopped relying on the same recurring beats (ie. the repetitive Ba'alzamon fights) and instead started branching out in more meaningful ways. And I'll always love it for that.
Obviously, the three big highlights you mentioned are some which have stayed with me as well: Perrin's rallying of the Two Rivers, Nynaeve's showdown with Moghedien, and especially, Rand's journey to Rhuidean. That Rhuidean sequence is one I'm dying to see in the television show, and I think you're right that that is true for many fans of the series. Robert Jordan always excelled at writing vision scenes, and Rhuidean remains one of his best for how it laid bare the ancient history of the Aiel and Tuatha'an, totally recontextualizing the Way of the Leaf.
A few other highlights! The whole beginning sequence at the Stone of Tear has always been a favorite of mine, because it brings most all of our major players together for the first time in a long time (and for a long time to come). Egwene's training in Dreamwalking with the Aiel is another, as is Rand's showdown with Couladin. I also love Mat's encounters with the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, a mysterious, creepy element of the story which will have far-reaching repercussions on the overall tale.
Oh, and I can't forget Asmodean! The idea that Rand needs a teacher to show him how to properly harness saidin is huge plot point, and I remember being totally shocked when Asmodean's true identity was revealed, only for Lanfear to turn around and help Rand capture him. Rand's encounters with the seemingly unassuming bard are one of those things that add a ton of re-read value to The Shadow Rising, and Asmodean is a very interesting character.
That plays into one of your points: that the Forsaken are far more fallible than they first seemed. I like that the show has front-loaded this part of their dynamic, so that characters like Lanfear and Ishamael are already scheming against one another. But here, we see that they're maybe not the vastly superior beings they claim to be, at least power-wise. Instead, it's their deep cunning and knowledge of the world and its history that is perhaps the greatest danger. Meeting all the different Forsaken is a very fun element of The Wheel of Time, and The Shadow Rising starts to fulfill that promise now that Ishamael is out of the picture.
But you mentioned complaints. What were some of the issues you had with this book? Or lingering questions it left you with by the time you read that final page?
DAN: Yes to Mat's freaky encounters with the haunted snake people of Spooky-Town; those were weird and imaginative and I have no idea where they're going. I liked the opening sections in the Stone of Tear as well, with the One Power manifesting bizarre challenges for Rand, Mat and Perrin. That's what you get when this many Ta'veren are crowded into one building, I guess.
As for Asmodean...I dunno. I read this book twice, and both times I felt like his climactic race with Rand to reach the magical doohickey kind of came out of nowhere. I found myself asking: 'Who is he again? Why are they trying to get to the thing?' It's not a big complaint, but I agree with you that The Wheel of Time TV show has benefitted from being able to introduce the Forsaken as complete characters right out of the gate, whereas in the books you can feel Robert Jordan figuring them out as he goes. And I liked that Lanfear brought drama and reveals, as expected.
As for complaints, a lot of it comes down to characters treating each other in ways I don't understand. Case in point, and this is a problem I've had for the entire series: why do the Emond's Field Five have trouble trusting Moiraine when she is obviously smarter, more experienced and just plain better than all of them? Four books in, after she's been of huge help to the lot of them, you still get Nynaeve cursing Moiraine in her head and Rand refusing to share his plans with this person who could offer good counsel. At this point it feels forced to me, like they've crossed the line from understandably skeptical into outright stupid.
I also raised an eyebrow at Rand reading a bunch of books and then being able to devise a brilliant plan that no one else could think up despite many people devoting their lives to it. It reminds me of the scene from The Dragon Reborn where Mat is able to best a couple of warders-in-training in combat even though they study this stuff and he's a small town kid with a gambling problem. The in-world reason for this, I suppose, is that Rand, Mat and Perrin are Ta'veren; Rand is the damn Dragon Reborn, so when they're able to do amazing things, that's destiny at work. But is that just a mythological justification for turning your characters into Mary Sues who are good at everything they try? The reason authors try and avoid Mary Sue characters is because they're hard for the audience to believe; they make you roll your eyes. I don't think having a magical explanation for why they're awesome completely gets rid of that problem.
And then, of course, there's the ongoing issue of the weird gender dynamics in this series, but that's enough complaining for one entry.
DANIEL: The Mary Sue point you make is an interesting one, and obviously, I think you're right that having magical reasoning for it doesn't make it less of an issue. And really, that is exactly what the whole Ta'veren thing is when you boil it down: a magical excuse to have things happen very conveniently for the characters. It doesn't bother me quite as much here as in, say, The Sword of Truth, a series which is utterly rife with that kind of thing. But if it helps, these character will have plenty of issues as the story goes on.
The Mat fight with Gawyn and Galad is actually one I remember not bothering me as much though, because I feel like it was one of those example of Robert Jordan trying to show a clash of cultures. On the one hand, we have two nobles who have studied combat for a long time and want to become warders. On the other we have a farm kid, with a more advantageous weapon, who grew up out in the boonies in a very rural, skills-based society. I think there are multiple instances throughout the series of Robert Jordan trying to get across the idea that this kind of hands-on learning could be shockingly effective when put up against the more "learned" approach people take in the metropolitan parts of his world. But maybe that's just me over-reading into it. And either way, I do remember being surprised about Mat's skill with the staff, because it's something that wasn't mentioned a whole lot beforehand in the book. So your point stands.
As for the gender dynamics...whew, that is a topic to get into. I think this is one of the more widely known issues with The Wheel of Time. Jordan tried to portray his fantasy world with very clear gender dynamics, and often went to lengths to break them down within that world. But I don't think he always pulled it off. I remember reading an interview with him somewhere where he talked about knowing a lot of very strong women from the American South where he grew up, and that's where some of the cultural norms for things like the women's circle of Emond's Field and treating men like "woolheads" who spoke a different language came from. But obviously, looking back on The Wheel of Time, I think this is one of those elements that hasn't aged exceptionally well, and was probably a bit backward-looking even when the books were initially released.
Something I find fascinating about all this though is that, for as many issues as The Wheel of Time has as a series, it really doesn't diminish my enjoyment of it that much. The Wheel of Time wears its flaws on it sleeves, but the overall vision of the thing remains extremely strong.
How did you feel about the Aiel? The development of their culture is another highlight of this book for me, now that we finally get to learn more about them by going to their homeland.
DAN: Very clever, Daniel, asking me about the Aiel and hoping I wouldn't air my grievances about all the gender stuff. NICE TRY.
Although first I have to weigh in on that Mat vs Gawyn and Galad scene from The Dragon Reborn, because you're trying to argue it's not ridiculous and I won't stand for that. Okay, sure, city vs country, formal training vs homespun experience; it's a theme, I get it. But this is a scene where two guys who have devoted their lives to fighting are beaten by one guy who, so far as we know, has never paid special attention to it. There is no way convince me that isn't very silly. Four books in, that's the only scene where I've read it and then involuntarily said, "Oh, come on!"
Back to the gender stuff, I can definitely see that Jordan is Doing A Thing here. It's just not a thing that jives at all with my understanding of how real people behave. Like, I have lots of family in the south and I don't think any of them would look at The Wheel of Time and say, "Oh, yeah, this feels familiar." It's like Jordan thinks men and women are entirely different species. It leads to these weird "separate but equal" societies; we have the Women's Circle in Emond's Field and the Roof Mistresses among the Aiel, which are supposedly just as important and influential as the male decision-makers...only of course they're not? And then we have the various matriarchal societies like the throne of Andor or the Aes Sedai, which is an all-women organization on account of the male half of the One Power having been tainted. The importance of gender division goes straight down to the way magic operates in this world.
The series looks at the world in a gender essentialist way, which is different from a series that has characters who look at the world in a gender essentialist way. For example, I was a little annoyed when Perrin was doing the traditional patronizing patriarch thing and lying to Faile so she would leave Emond's Field and avoid the coming battle, even though she wanted to stay, fight and die if need be. There are obviously people who think like Perrin in the real world, but it felt like the book was endorsing his way of thinking as the right and natural way, not just giving us an instance of one guy who thinks one way.
And honestly, while I appreciate The Wheel of Time and am having a good time reading it, this pervasive outlook does diminish my enjoyment, because it's out of sync with what I think is the truth: that while there are obviously differences between men and women, we're all people who have basically the same wants and needs. I don't believe the gap is as unbridgeable as Jordan seems to. The TV show has smoothed out a lot of this weirdness and I think that's for the better.
Anyway, how do YOU feel about the Aiel?
DANIEL: I'm so glad you asked, I love the Aiel! Jordan created a bunch of interesting cultures in The Wheel of Time, and the Aiel have always been one of my favorites. The fact that we get to see so much more of them in The Shadow Rising, learn about their origins, learn about the way they function and the dynamics between different clans, is an eternal highlight of the book for me.
Now, to be an annoying pest and circle back to a few of your points! First, it's hilarious we're debating this Mat and Gawyn/Galad scene because it's in the previous book, but obviously it stuck in your craw so much that we can't not talk about it. Everything you're saying about it is pretty fair! But I just went back and re-read it, and there are a few more things I need to point out: one is that Mat was making a wager, and his supernatural luck was on his side (gotta love Jordan making canonical reasons for Mary Sue behavior), and the other is that Mat's memories from past lives were coming in throughout the scene, with him speaking the Old Tongue, accidentally saying he was from Menetheren, etcetera. So it isn't implausible at all that he would have some skill with the staff bleeding through, in addition to his own childhood spent using one because his father was usually the winner of the annual quarterstaff competition in the Two Rivers. And all that's aside from the fact that Gawyn and Galad wildly underestimate him to the point that Gawyn is out of the fight before it even starts.
ANYwho, something I do not disagree with is your assessment on The Wheel of Time's gender essentialism. This is a pretty well-trod topic in the fandom, and I do think it's one thing the show is improving upon. Jordan leans into the Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus mindset, and obviously that book exists so it's not like that mindset comes from nowhere, regardless of your or my lived experiences. But I am very much with you that, on the whole, even when it's working at its "best," it's still a flaw of the book series. That's especially true when it makes characters feel like caricatures, because this is just the way given genders act and they can't ever see eye-to-eye.
We've rambled on quite a while now! Are there any other parts of The Shadow Rising you want to talk about? Or are there any you're particularly looking forward to seeing in season 3 of the television series?
DAN: Yes, I can't believe we're devoting so much of this Shadow Rising crosstalk to a scene from The Dragon Reborn, but at least we can put it to bed now. I'm willing to believe that Mat's magic luck plays a big role, but the fact that you linked to a person on Reddit just as confused by the scene as I was shows that it didn't read. Hopefully that's something the show can clarify should they adapt that scene in season 3.
And they have a lot to adapt in season 3. I think the big challenge for the season will be folding everything in without things feeling smushed. If they do it right, I'm looking forward to a whole host of big moments. The two biggest are probably Rand's trip to Rhuidean, where we learn how the Aiel came to be; and Nynaeve's showdown with Moghedien, because Nynaeve is the best. But the coup at the White Tower is exciting, Perrin's stand against the White Cloaks and the trollocs is exciting...there's just a ton to get to. I hope they manage to tell this story without stumbling over the sheer size of it.
What are you looking forward to? And are you concerned with any changes they show might make to the source material? I'm curious about the one image that shows Mat (there he is again, coming up) in the city of Tanchico with Nynaeve, whereas in The Shadow Rising he goes with Rand, Moiraine and Elayne into the Aiel Waste.
DANIEL: I think you've hit on all the big ones. Every single one of those moments you mentioned is something I'm really looking forward to, and a few of them, like Rhuidean and the Moghedien showdown, are the sorts of scenes I read years ago and still can't believe we're finally going to see onscreen. The farther The Wheel of Time shows gets into the books, the more it's starting to give me those same sorts of chills as Game of Thrones did, where you know big iconic moments are coming down and can't wait to see how the show handles them.
Mat going to Tanchico is probably the single biggest question I have heading into this season. He does a few very important things in the Aiel Waste which have far-reaching ramifications for him. The show has already foreshadowed one of those things, so I can't imagine it'll cut them. Maybe it's repurposing one of the red stone doorways for Tanchico? Maybe Mat will go in one there and come out in the Waste? In a previous season I would have just been very nervous about it, but at this point the show has earned my trust enough that I'm looking forward to seeing what it has in store.
There is one other very iconic scene from the books that I'm wondering if the show will feature this season; like Mat's scenes I mentioned above, it also features a red stone doorway. That scene is from the next book, The Fires of Heaven, so I won't spoil it here in our Shadow Rising chat...but book readers who are farther into the series will know exactly which one I'm talking about. The Wheel of Time is nearing the halfway point of the TV show if they're still aiming for eight seasons, and that means we could start to see scenes from later books in season 3. I'm anxious, i'm excited, I am so, so curious. March 13 can't get here fast enough!
The Wheel of Time crosstalks:
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