GRRM interviewed in SFX mag, comments on episode nine

First? If so, wahooooo! If not, second? If so, wahooooo! If not, rinse and repeat.

So VERY glad this epic episode is in GRRM’s hands. Didn’t Neil Marshall direct an epi last season? Can’t remember which one, but I remember talk about it on WiC.

Sam,

I’m pretty sure ASoS will be divided into 2 seasons, so that’ll probably give them a bit more time. I also think AFfC and ADwD could be 3 seasons.
There should always be a book before there’s a series of it, obviously. Though, at this rate, GRRM will have to work a bit harder =)

Sam,

I feel the same way as you regarding the time until the next book is complete. The major delays for the last 2 books revolved around cutting the 5 year gap, getting the timeline back on track, and solving the knot those issues created. The writing time for the first 3 books was significantly shorter and I’m hoping that we’re back on track with the next book. I was thinking about 3 more years from now until the next release and probably the same amount of time for the next. Of course, this assumes that we’re still on pace for 7 books.

Sam: I”m kind of hoping he sees the four years as his time limit. With the knot dealt with and a couple chapters already written, and knowing how it’s going to end, I will cross my fingers that it’ll be out around the time season 5/ADWD airs. He always said he wanted to skip a chunk of time and age up the kids, but instead chose to write about it, so now hopefully he’s caught up to that and has it outlined or though out.

I swear I saw an interview with him where he said the reason he wasn’t going to skip ahead in time was because The Others weren’t going to wait around any longer to start their assault. We’ll see I guess. I have a feeling TWoW won’t take as long as ADWD but I’m an optimist.

Can’t find the interview at this link. Am I the only one? Someone help me out here….

I am hoping WoW will be published way before 4 years from now!

Ep 9 doesn’t need Melisandre but I do hope they focus the pov of Tyrion. I trust George to write it, so I am going to have faith! And I must say that I am dying to see Liam as Davos, he is fantastic! My most-anticipated new character!!!

Winter Is Coming,

Is it for sure that they will film AFFC and ADWD together? I was hoping they would give AFFC and ADWD both two seasons, like they (probably) will do with ASOS.

Maybe he will still do a time lapse, so he gets more time to write;) Honestly, I hope since he has gotten past the knot, I hope the writing flows smoothly now and we will get WoW in 2-3 years…

Ohh and I hope they include my favourtie part of the Blackwater:

The flinging of the Antlermen…

Mormegil,

That’s true. Didn’t thought about that… But maybe we will get 4 seasons for AFFC/ADWD?
- Nah, it’s time to wake up… :-(

Liking the fact that we’ll see Stannis’ side of things. Davos was the main man there in the books, but maybe we’ll get some input from Stannis during the battle as it switches between Tyrion and Cersei?

Johannes Genard:
Sam,

I’m pretty sure ASoS will be divided into 2 seasons, so that’ll probably give them a bit more time. I also think AFfC and ADwD could be 3 seasons.
There should always be a book before there’s a series of it, obviously. Though, at this rate, GRRM will have to work a bit harder =)

No chance AFfC + ADwD = 3 seasons. Absolutely no chance.

Mormegil: the Antlermen…

I would imagine if Feast was filmed on its own, they’d have a bunch of people thinking, “Who are these people and why should I care? Where is my Tyrion and where is my Dany?”

What seems to be glossed over here is the fact that, if TWOW isn’t out until 2016, that the 7th book would never make it to the screen unless its cranked out in one year or at most two. I agree with the assumption that the material in books 3-5 would take up four seasons on HBO (but no more than that) and that the writers would not need a new book to draw upon to keep going until early 2016. But, if the show actually makes it that far, GRRM would need to complete BOTH books by 2017 or, at the very latest, early 2018 in order for the entire ASOIAF to be filmed. Personally, I’m hoping the timeframe is more like TWOW in late 2014 and Book 7 in 2017 so it would leave open the possibility.

CT Wahoo:
What seems to be glossed over here is the fact that, if TWOW isn’t out until 2016, that the 7th book would never make it to the screen unless its cranked out in one year or at most two.I agree with the assumption that the material in books 3-5 would take up four seasons on HBO (but no more than that) and that the writers would not need a new book to draw upon to keep going until early 2016.But, if the show actually makes it that far, GRRM would need to complete BOTH books by 2017 or, at the very latest, early 2018 in order for the entire ASOIAF to be filmed.Personally, I’m hoping the timeframe is more like TWOW in late 2014 and Book 7 in 2017 so it would leave open the possibility.

That’s why GRRM provided D+D with story details beyond Book 6, for exactly that situation. I’ve no doubt he would give them even more info if time went by and it became more and more likely that they would overtake him.

i cant see the scene with tyrion and podrick riding out to stop the ram and continuing all the way onto the bridge of ships,making it to film.in my head it just looks too massive

Skeptical Sam,

I thought that was more to ensure that they did not make any changes to his story in the show that would have a serious “butterfly effect” down the road. Like, killing off a character on the show that would seem to be a minor edit but it turns out that he had big things in store for that same character in a future book. Or, making sure that an individual plotline introduced in the show would not cause an inconsistency with how their story turns out in Book 6 or 7. I would doubt that enough details have been provided that would allow for scripting an entire 10 episode season of an unpublished novel. But, maybe this could be done in a pinch if the timelines come into serious conflict.

GRRM you suck for making such great books and not writing them fast enough. You should have started writing once you finished ADOD. You better not die before you finish.

When i read the Battle i had a wet dream of possibles for the TV show

Winter Is Coming: That is the plan (well the breaking into two seasons part anyway; filming them back-to-back is still just a rumor). So you’d have:

Season 3 (ASOS pt 1) airing Spring 2013
Season 4 (ASOS pt 2) airing Spring 2014
Season 5 (AFFC/ADWD pt 1) airing Spring 2015
Season 6 (AFFC/ADWD pt 2) airing Spring 2016

So George would need to have finished TWOW by early 2016, so David & Dan could get started scripting season 7, hence 4 years.

The above is the ideal schedule for us viewers but, especially if it takes George more than four years to produce WoW, HBO will likely – and quite happily – do what they’ve done with so many of their other shows and air new seasons of GoT up to 18 to 24 months apart.

For example, The Wire aired its third season in Sept 2003, with Season 4 airing Sept 2006 and Season 5 airing Jan 2008 – a two year and 18 month gap respectively. Speaking of The Wire, Nina Gold needs to cast Dominic West in GoT; Oberyn Martell, maybe?

Or consider The Sopranos: Season 3 aired March 2001; Season 4 aired Sept 2002; Season 5 aired March 2004; Season 6 aired a full two years later in June 2006.

Quite apart from allowing George to catch up, pushing back the air-date of future seasons is very possibly something D&D might request to allow themselves and the production team a break in order to creatively recharge. Or it’s something HBO might request for financial reasons.

I agree that it’s unlikely that they’d take the decision to make AFOC and ADWD into four seasons, I think dramatically and character-wise there’s not enough there. But who knows what ideas the show-runners have for translating the book-series’ two most controversial novels for the small-screen? Possibly they’ll mix it up and do two full seasons and a mini-season of 6 or 8 episodes. Or 8 x 8 x 8 eps. Or two seasons of 13 episodes each – we can but hope!

D&D will have access to early drafts of WoW so they won’t need to wait until it’s on bookstore shelves (like us) or even just until its ready to be sent to the publisher (like George’s patient editor!) before they can start prepping scripts and the production. And if WoW translates into two seasons of TV (of 13 eps…ahem, just suggestin’) it gives George even more time to complete the second half of the book. He might even use that time to take a well-deserved vacation…!

do what they’ve done with so many of their other shows and air new seasons of GoT up to 18 to 24 months apart.

HBO have indicated that this way of working was bad business for them, and hurt some of their shows (particularly THE WIRE but also ROME). Having their shows on at the same time each year is something they are aiming for these days. I very much doubt we’ll see longer-than-normal gaps between seasons going forwards. Maybe for the last season if a 6-month gap is the difference between the last book coming out before or after, but not for anything short of that.

Winter Is Coming,

Adam Whitehead,

Thanks. Thanks also for posting some of the interview.

Everyone is uneasy about our man GRRM doing his work on par with a TV production. It used to bother me but now I just don’t think about it. I’m sure the momentum of the show will start to drive him as it gets bigger. If anything I’ll worry about his health!

Also agree with the idea that ASOIAF will go to 8 books. Maybe 9. And that GoT will surpass The Sopprannos as most watched HBO series. That is if S2 goes well with everybody.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised people are so skeptical about Martin’s ability to finish these books. He may have taken ages to get through Feast and Dance, but back when the series first started he was pounding out a book every two years, one of which was the mammoth ASoS. He’s also well under way on Winds of Winter–at least a hundred pages were moved from ADwD–AND he’s resolved the timeline issues that were holding him back, AND he’s now got responsibilities to HBO, when before his publishers may have been more lenient. Of course, nothing is set in stone, but the guy has, for all intents and purposes, taken several years off or writing ASoIaF, and it sounds like his batteries are recharged in a way they probably weren’t five years ago.

I still say splitting ASoS into two seasons is a bit of a bad idea, but it could work. Having the combined AFFC/ADWD narrative take up more than two seasons is a VERY bad move, though. Even as it is, there’s not really a full narrative for most of the characters–what’s Brienne going to be doing as the fifth season winds to a close? “Yup, still looking for Sansa, dum-de-dee…” there needs to be a narrative climax for everyone in every season. I think these are the seasons where we’re really going to start to see D&D add their own embellishments to the story in order to make it feel more like a TV show–sounds like we’re going to get a taste of this in the coming season 2, with Dany’s and probably Jon’s storylines being beefed up with new material.

I’m also interested to see how the final episode of the coming season distributes the narrative. I mean, if the Blackwater is episode 9, that means something else provides the climax to the season. Logic would dictate the Fist of the First Men, but then you’ve got the problem of two massive battles in a season. That said, I thought I remembered D&D saying that the issue with the lack of battles in S1 wasn’t money, it was organization and scheduling…so maybe now that everyone’s settled in they can handle the workload. This is often what happens with the second season of a show, things get more ambitious because the crew has become a well-oiled machine and can tackle more. Plus, with a lot of the sets built and no expensive Sean Bean or Mark Addy to pay, the budget may be a bit more flexible.

All that being said, I’d be content if season 2 ends with a horde of White Walkers screaming out of the trees to attack the Fist, rather than an actual battle.

Prankster: All that being said, I’d be content if season 2 ends with a horde of White Walkers screaming out of the trees to attack the Fist, rather than an actual battle.

I’d prefer that. My ideal ending scene goes Night’s Watch huddled together, preparing and not sure what for. Focus on the different people we know as we hear first one, then quite quickly, a second horn blast. The men hold their breath, counting. Third blast, a moment of chaotic and terrified reactions, flash of eyes in the shadows, end credits. Pick up next series right where we left off.

tysnow: goober, Noooo! They have to include this scene, Tyrion speaks of of my favorite quotes, “Those are some brave men out there, let’s go kill them”. from ACoK.

As long as that line is in there then I don’t care what else makes it in from the battle. Besides Tyrion getting his face slashed. I’m sure Davos’ POVs are the ones that will be getting the most trimming.

I don’t think that the producers will need to wait for the books if the series is still a success in four years time.I’m quite certain that AFFC and ADWD will be combined in some way for future seasons since they mostly occupy the same time frame.And then what?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again,HBO’s brief is to produce an entertainment for their subscribers not to faithfully reproduce the original texts of the novels.If there is no source material to work from they will plough on regardless using their own ideas.If George Martin doesn’t wish to see this happen he’d better get scribbling.

Shinyteapot: I’d prefer that.My ideal ending scene goes Night’s Watch huddled together, preparing and not sure what for.Focus on the different people we know as we hear first one, then quite quickly, a second horn blast.The men hold their breath, counting.Third blast, a moment of chaotic and terrified reactions, flash of eyes in the shadows, end credits.Pick up next series right where we left off.

That’s awesome!! Where’s the LIKE button?

Shinyteapot: I’d prefer that.My ideal ending scene goes Night’s Watch huddled together, preparing and not sure what for.Focus on the different people we know as we hear first one, then quite quickly, a second horn blast.The men hold their breath, counting.Third blast, a moment of chaotic and terrified reactions, flash of eyes in the shadows, end credits.Pick up next series right where we left off.

That’s a little too restrained. I want to see some ice zombies next season, dammit! :)

Seriously, though, don’t forget that the White Walkers are the original “hook” for the series. Obviously there’s lots of other cool stuff–we’ll be getting plenty of dragon action in S2–but it’s not a good idea to have the whole second season be completely free of Walkers. I’ve already heard a few people grumble about the show for that reason.

And Epic Fishhead, you’re right that Ep 9 was in some ways the climax of series one, but it was still logical to have an episode dealing with the fallout, and the Rangers riding out combined with Dany’s big moment made for a suitably epic finale as well. And let’s not forget–in the book version of ACoK, there was no viewpoint character situated with the Night’s Watch for the final chapters. In the show, we’re not going to have the option to completely abandon them for an episode (or maybe more?); we’re going to have to check in with them, and since the next major thing to happen to them is the battle on the Fist, I’d be very surprised if they don’t at least show the immanent assault.

GrandmaFunk,

You are absolutely right. People, downplay those crazy expectations.

Prankster,

I agree with you that episode 10 will have some content in it ;). I actually don’t remember the 10th episode from last year that well, but now I recall the dragons were a great way to go though I would not call the scene climactic.

DireWolfe: I watched Neil Marshall’s ‘Centurion’ a few weeks ago. And, while I had mixed feeling about the movie as a whole, he can definitely orchestrate an effective — and incredibly gory — swords-and-shields-and-spears fight scene.

I disagree, and just don’t get why people think he was a good choice. It looked cheap (which of course it was) and badly orchestrated.

Critical Geek,

The trouble is that while you CAN “fluff up” the narrative, at a certain point it’s going to seem like padding and turn people off. People already feel like AFFC and ADWD are spinning their wheels a little too much, and as is a season based on the first halves of AFFC and DWD is going to be stretching a bit not to feel aimless.

swjenings,

I’m just saying, Martin’s quoted in that very article as saying there’s more pressure now that it’s a TV show. “Responsibilities” may have been the wrong word. But it’s self-evident that book publishers are less hardcore about deadlines than network executives. A show has to air at a certain time or it’ll cost everyone a lot of money.

Prankster: I’m just saying, Martin’s quoted in that very article as saying there’s more pressure now that it’s a TV show. “Responsibilities” may have been the wrong word. But it’s self-evident that book publishers are less hardcore about deadlines than network executives. A show has to air at a certain time or it’ll cost everyone a lot of money.

Myyeeah, ok. Agree.

Filming Feast and Dance over two seasons will doom this show. They are both disappointing, badly paced and incomplete books and will be even worse on screen. Viewership will drop off in droves. DnD need to take the story into their own hands at that point. GRRM saying the book might be done 4 years from now, which is 5 years after ADWD. The man doesn’t seem to have changed his attitude at all and 5 years between books is the new norm. I hope HBO has the balls to take the story and finish it on their own.
And I also remember reading that the 5 year gap was dropped because the Others wouldn’t just wait around, but I can’t remember if GRRM himself said that.

I really hope he doesn’t finish tWoW until 2020, so that D&D can finish the story on their own without the book-purists bitching on them. Starting with season 5 and skip all the turtles and Dany-diarrhea please.

Yeah, I’m kind of surprised people are so skeptical about Martin’s ability to finish these books. He may have taken ages to get through Feast and Dance, but back when the series first started he was pounding out a book every two years, one of which was the mammoth ASoS. He’s also well under way on Winds of Winter–at least a hundred pages were moved from ADwD–AND he’s resolved the timeline issues that were holding him back,

The first few books were written over nine years (with approx. 18 months off to work on the DOORWAYS TV project) and were supposed to be one book, which he had a pretty good plan for. By the time he finished AGoT he had 30-50% of ACoK already completed (and not subject to revision) and when he finished ACoK he had a lot of ASoS done as well. So yeah, he was faster in those days, but not a huge amount faster.

I’d hope the next book will come along more quickly because he hasn’t got the five-year-gap problem (which delayed AFFC) or the Meereenese Knot (which delayed ADWD), but then we though ADWD could be out in a year based on what he was saying and that didn’t work out well :) For myself, I like to think 3.5-5 years because if it comes along sooner than that, that’s cool, whilst if I was shooting for 2 and it took 5 that would be depressing.

And I also remember reading that the 5 year gap was dropped because the Others wouldn’t just wait around, but I can’t remember if GRRM himself said that.

I don’t think this was the primary reason. The main reason was wanting to deal with the Iron Islands, Dorne and Brienne’s storylines right away. He mentioned the issues of dissipating the dramatic tension by having the Others hanging around and not attacking for five years but that wasn’t the prime motivator for removing the gap (the Others being mysterious and enigmatic means they might have delayed for some unfathomable Engimatically Mysterious reason that could have been handwaved in some fashion anyway).

Slightly OT, but if he is now working on WoW, does that mean he finished the new Dunk & Egg story about Winterfell? And the encyclopedia type project with Ran?

I believe the Dunk & Egg story is virtually done, but there appears to be some issues with finding a slot for the DANGEROUS WOMEN anthology. It’s still not on any schedules yet. As for the encyclopedia, it appears to be done but Bantam are acting weird about it. They released a schedule last week showing it to be published on 30 October 2012 (hurrah!) but the word from the editor is that this isn’t the case, and it won’t be out until Christmas 2013 (huh?).

Wert, I found the Others quote interesting because it implied they might be doing something soon. I find the northern storyline most interesting and the Others have been on the periphery for the last two books. I have no idea how he’s goin to handle the timing of them potentially invading and also have Jon come back and Dany maybe arriving as well. I think all of these things might happen but I have no idea how the timing of it all will work.

AFFC and ADWD must be combined for one season. I see no reason to fluff these out to two seasons. Too much filler will result in lost viewers and that wont be good for HBO.

I do think GRRM can work quicker now that his issues with Book 4 and 5 are over. He should be aiming for 2.5-3 years per book from here-on.

There’s been a lot of great comments. Personally, I think that splitting A Storm of Swords into two seasons is fine, but that’s the only book that has enough in it to justify that. A Feast for Crows is like half a season, though combined with A Dance With Dragons, there’s probably enough for two seasons between the two books. If A Storm of Swords is shot back-to-back, there will be no reason whatsoever to have more than a year gap between Seasons 3 and 4 (whether there is a delay between Seasons 2 and 3 is a different matter, but I doubt that will happen). So that means they’d be done with A Storm of Swords by Summer 2014. Two more seasons to cover the combined A Feast for Crows/A Dance With Dragons books would put the series catching up to Martin in Summer 2016. But the next season wouldn’t start until Spring of 2017 if there are no delays, though they’d probably start filming it pretty soon after the previous season.

We have no idea how much will be in The Winds of Winter, but Martin still has a lot to get done, so it could conceivably be as condensed as A Storm of Swords was. If A Dream of Spring is similarly dense, I could see possibly three seasons between the two books. So barring delays (and I do think we could potentially see an 18-month delay or two, but not two years–that’s just too long) or a possible eighth book (a distinct possibility given how much still needs to be done), we’d be looking at the end of the series in Summer 2018 or 2019. Honestly, that seems about right to me. Realistically, Martin is probably going to need a minimum of two years apiece for the remaining books, since he never wrote faster than that, even with his first three books. I think he can write that fast again. It’s just a matter of being motivated enough. And between the TV series (and the HBO suits that come with it) and the fact that he has to see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think he’s got that now. When he says he’s “begun” work on The Winds of Winter, I don’t know if he’s simply counting the chapters that he took out of A Dance With Dragons, or if he’s back to writing new chapters. Hopefully, it’s the latter, and he’s back on track.

Factoring everything together, I think The Winds of Winter needs to be out in time for Christmas 2015. That gives him roughly three years, which I think is certainly doable. As for A Dream of Spring, the book wouldn’t necessarily have to be done, as long as Martin had enough material for them to film the final season. So it could be written but still in need of some editing, and they could use that to make the final season. Conceivably, the book could be released after the series finished airing, though I think it makes more financial sense for Martin to release the book first, probably as close to the airing of the penultimate season as possible, though it could potentially get pushed to Christmas. The last season is where we’re most likely to see an 18-month delay to accommodate for finishing the book. Here’s my final guess on the timeline (no delays or additional books):

April 2013 A Storm of Swords (Season 3)
April 2014 A Storm of Swords (Season 4)
April 2015 A Feast for Crows/A Dance With Dragons (Season 5)
December 2015 The Winds of Winter released in print
April 2016 A Feast for Crows/A Dance With Dragons (Season 6)
April 2017 The Winds of Winter (Season 7)
April 2018 The Winds of Winter (Season 8)
July/December 2018 A Dream of Spring released in print
April/September 2019 A Dream of Spring (Season 9)

So this timeline gives Martin roughly three years to finish The Winds of Winter, and roughly two-and-a-half years for A Dream of Spring. I think that’s doable. Maybe if he needs a bit more time, we could see a longer delay between the penultimate and final seasons. In that case, push the A Dream of Spring release date to December 2018, which would give Martin three years instead of two-and-a-half, and the final season of Game of Thrones would air in say September of 2019. I think this will work. I have faith that the final book will be out before the final season.

Tywin’s Bastard: ADWD got great reviews and awards from book critics that aren’t genre critics so it would also be dumb to just throw away such quality.

come on, ADWD is overall not liked by the majority of the fanbase (HBO’s primary target, critics are less important). These books are so vastly different than the first 3 books it will be shockingly bad TV, just imagine watching 20 episodes of:

-Jon moping at the wall counting food
-Dany fucking some stranger
-Tyrion counting turtles, going on a boatride
- Sam going on a boatride
- Bran sitting in a tree
- Brienne wandering aimlessly throughout Westeros
- Sansa learning politics
- Dorne?!?

The only intersting parts for TV are Davos, Arya, Cersei and Jaime (and maybe the Ironborn). This is one season max of material, if D&D choose to adapt those books at all.

Tywin’s Bastard,

that was definitely not my intention. That’s just how I see those 2 books pan out on TV, I’m interested if you can make the storylines of those characters sound interesting for 20 episodes.

In AGOT Tyrion first goes to the Wall, gets captured and talks his way out of it in the Vale, forms a little army with a bunch of tribesmen, fights a battle with these tribesmen. Tyrion is an assertive dude in aGoT, in ADWD he’s just a character who lost his mojo and tv-watchers will think: what the fuck is this? This is not Tyrion!

Well, for all the great timelines mentioned here, I can only say hope dies last.
After waiting years for AFFC and after that waiting years again for ADWD (which was halfway written even before AFFC was out), I can only say things will not get any better from here on, I still hope it will not get worse. But seeing that he only started writing on AWOW now, nearly a year after ADWD was published, well expect at least 5 years, before the next book comes out.
By the way, I do not think he solved the mereneese knot at all but rather pushed most of it to AWOW, I mean who actually met with Dany in ADWD? And she did not went to Westeros again, an event we wait for since the first book…
I think HBO can stretch everything out enough to make AWOW, but after that they have to finish the series on there own. Which may not be the worst, who knows their ending might be better then Georges.

Abendstern,

I think it was more about timing of arrival more than meetings so it should be solved.

Two thoughts on these comments:

1) Is there now a collective belief that the TV series will even make it to the end?

2) Surely the TV series can not pass the books. How could the conclusion to an epic series be done on TV before it comes out in print? GRRM/Publishers wouldn’t let that happen, right?

Hexonx:
Two thoughts on these comments:

1)Is there now a collective belief that the TV series will even make it to the end?

2)Surely the TV series can not pass the books.How could the conclusion to an epic series be done on TV before it comes out in print? GRRM/Publishers wouldn’t let that happen, right?

1) I guess season 2 will probably answer that, but it would seem very likely at this point.

2) Why not? It may even be in the contract.

Hexonx,

I think it’s almost certain that the TV show will play until the end – especially if the show takes the leap in ratings that seems increasingly likely right now.

HBO took a lot of heat for the non-ending of Deadwood and the accelerated ending of Rome (and for that matter, the cryptic ending of the Sopranos). Game of Thrones is already much more popular than Deadwood or Rome ever were. If it ends abruptly or on a very inconclusive note – which basically characterizes the ending of every book in the series thus far – watch out.

Goldzor,

I hope you’re right and the last two books turn out like that. If his editor doesn’t crack down on him and force him to be more efficient I can see it going to 8 books. And since his editor is a giant fangirl and probably tells him that everything he writes is gold, I get a bad feeling. I was willing to overlook 1 very long and disappointing book, but after a second I refuse to let myself get burned again. Over the course of two books he really seems to have lost all control over the plot momentum and pacing of this series. It’s a testament to the strength of the first three books that I even still care at all.
Also people seem to not know that every year a show is on tv the actors’ salaries rise. If anyone actually think this will go on for ten years then you have a fundamental ignorance of how the tv industry works.

Blueberry2: es Night’s Watch huddled together, preparing and not sure what for. Focus on the different people we know as we hear first one, then quite quickly, a second horn blast. The men hold their breath, counting. Third blast, a moment of chaotic and terrified reactions, flash of eyes in the shadows, end credits. Pick up next series right where we left off.

Okay blueberry..we get it. You hated the two books. You think D&D should just start making up their own stuff a la Alan Ball and his Sookie Stackhouse/True Blood series. That’s going to tick off a lot of GRRM fans.

As much as you don’t like AFFC and ADwD, it’s still better than 95% of the stuff in the genre. As a matter of fact..I’m not even a fan of the genre but GRRM’s writing and world drew me in. There was a lot in it I enjoyed and think will translate better to screen since there will be less internal monologue. Yes, it’s frustrating the plot lines don’t seem to be resolving and in some cases…expanding. But there are still two more books to come and a lot of events to happen. We are just now “finishing” the middle of the story. Ultimately AFFC and ADWD will be judged on how well they set up the events of next two books–not how satisfying the ending of these two books were as they were never intended to be self contained stories. If the “superfluous” story lines turn out to be monumental to the resolution of the story, history will judge those two books in much better light. AGOT was one hell of a kickoff to the story. A lot of people don’t like ACOK because it lacked resolution and didn’t have the outcome people were hoping for (blackwater). I believe ASOS is rated so high because it had a lot of action and towards the end it had things unraveling for the Lannisters at long last and a satisfying ending.

greenie88: Ultimately AFFC and ADWD will be judged on how well they set up the events of next two books–not how satisfying the ending of these two books were as they were never intended to be self contained stories.

What kind of argument is that? Yeah people, these 2 books aren’t top notch but please only judge them when the series is finished. It maybe, maybe would be a valid argument if the books were produced every year. We then would know there is a resolution coming, but the fact is: we have no guarantee of a resolution, will it come in the next 3 years? Probably not. Therefore these books should be judged on their own, these are not set-up episodes like in a tv-show.

I love the show, but ultimately the MAIN reason I’m so excited about it is because it puts pressure on GRRM to finish the series. HBO doesn’t play around, and I’m sure they have some kind of contractual arrangement regarding the end of the saga, should the TV show continue its momentum (which I think is probable). He has 5 years to finish the series, or at least 4 to complete the next book. If he fails to deliver, I’m sure he’ll pay a huge penalty or allow HBO to craft its own ending. This is great news!

greenie88: Sorry, but the books were not “terrible”..they are on par with ACOK–their only sin is that they were not as good as ASOS.

That’s your opinion of course, I think these 2 books are nowhere near the quality of aCoK. I understand that part of your enjoyment from AFFC and ADWD is the anticipation of a good series as a whole, but that’s not going to cut it for me. When reading the last 2 books I really felt GRRM lost his mojo so I have also no hope of a good comeback if he ever manages to finish tWoW. I have given up on GRRM but still have faith in HBO to finish this thing,.

For all those who are trying to suade Knurk to a more optimistic outlook it’s really not worth your time. I have a good friend who feels the exact same way regarding AFFC and ADWD and the only thing that will make them come around is time (less anger and bitterness) and a WOW that they will satisfy them. On their POV AFFC and ADWD were epic fails. Some of us can forgive them as the middle point of a series that is yet to be finished while others see it as a great chink on ASOIAF armor. There is a lot in those two books that can be condensed and excised but there is at least in my opinion a lot to salvage as well. We will have to see. Until then it will always be a tumultuous subject.

Knurk,
Well, obviously I can’t make anyone like the book any better and that being said; my previous comment was just an opinion, partially based on my experiance(i thought i’ll get more out of those 1k pages, yet i still found them a good read — definately not MUCH worse than any of the other four). Hope GRRM proves you wrong with TWoW, tho. :D

The show is definitely going to get up to at least the seasons that adapt AFFC and ADWD. Very little question at this point. The show is popular in every way that matters–it’s got very solid ratings (in HBO’s usual metric), it’s bringing in new subscribers, and people are talking about it. The sales of the DVDs and the ratings for he S2 premiere will tell the tale, I guess, but I’m quite confident at this point. It’s possible some of the wind might get sucked out of the show in the AFFC/ADWD seasons and the ratings might droop to a point where the show’s in trouble, but I doubt it–it’ll be established at that point.

Even though I don’t think the last two books were the stinking turds that some people are proclaiming here, I still expect to see D&D adapt and change them in ways they see fit for the TV medium..just like we saw S1 and will see in s2, s3 and s4. I still expect them to remain some what true to the books and not go off the rails like Alan Ball did with the True Blood material. There are a lot of storylines that can be cleaned up or altered a little bit to provide more suspense (Dany, Brienne). And there is still a lot of compelling interplay between characters..for instance D&D’s decision to cast an older Margary Tyrell with a strong actress is because of the events of AFFC.

PS. A character that I expect will die that doesn’t die until later is Janos Slynt. The reason:–we wouldn’t see Slynt again until S4 at best if we go by the books. It will be Slynt who kills the babe and the mother in the whorehouse in the series..not Allar Deem. Tyrion will remove him from the realm of the living. Slynt can easily be written out of future seasons.

Knurk: careful there, I heard this argument over and over again from people who are defending the book. “People are dissapointed because of their expectations.” Don’t start telling people why they didn’t like the book, it’s condescending. (The only expectation I had was it to be a good book).

As for me, there wasn’t time for expectation to build because I read all 4 available books back to back for the first time in mid-2010. So I got to FfC expecting the brilliance to continue and, in some respects, it certainly did. Cersei and Jaime had some of the best material in the entire saga in that book, and Sansa’s chapters were finally awesome to read. But jesus, it sure wasn’t awesome meandering around Westeros on a fool’s errand with Brienne. The Samwell and Brienne lines ended strongly but with their (and certain other piratey characters’) early chapters it definitely became apparent to me that GRRM was losing control of everything and needed a more critical editor.

Then DwD was just more of the same. Slog through the endless NOTHING of Tyrion and Dany’s lines and you get to a lot of good stuff with Jon, Theon, Arya, Quentyn (I know no one else likes him, but BAH. He was immensely entertaining for me) and Barristan.

It feels weird to ask for less material. I don’t know. I don’t have much patience for obvious filler. I’d've been thrilled with ADwD had it fewer Tyrion-on-a-boat chapters and more Arya, Sansa, and especially Jaime.

Zack,

Personally the best part of ADWD was the Reek/up North storyline, Griff’s POV and of course Cersei’s chapters. The rest with maybe the exception of Ser Barristan was filler that needed to be heavily edited.

Didn’t Martin marry his editor?

By the way, I do not think he solved the mereneese knot at all but rather pushed most of it to AWOW, I mean who actually met with Dany in ADWD?

The Knot has been mostly resolved: the issue was how people were going to get there and in what order they’d show up, namely Quentyn, Tyrion, Victarion and Marwyn. Two of those have been dealt with, the third is just about to arrive and the only question mark is the fourth, who, due to the timeline regarding AFFC, probably won’t show up for a while (maybe meeting Dany halfway?).

1) Is there now a collective belief that the TV series will even make it to the end?

Given the success of the series, HBO’s comments to GRRM last year (“We’ll keep making the series as long as you keep writing the books,” or somesuch) and the fact that we might be seeing the end of TRUE BLOOD in another couple of years (Ball has been making noises about moving on for a while now), the chances of GoT going the distance (6-8 seasons at least) are now radically improved.

2) Surely the TV series can not pass the books. How could the conclusion to an epic series be done on TV before it comes out in print? GRRM/Publishers wouldn’t let that happen, right?

They have no choice. HBO owns the show and can do what they want with it. The only obligations they have to GRRM are to keep his name in the credits and to offer him an episode a year to write (which he is probably free to decline if pressed for time). The publishers have absolutely zero say in the TV series at all.

Didn’t Martin marry his editor?

No, you’re thinking of Robert Jordan (who married his editor a long time before he started writing his WHEEL OF TIME books).

he needs to figure out what patterson does. that dude seems to pump out 3 books a year!! surely george can do a book in 2 years not 5!!! he writes about swords and kings, you’d think he’d know the phrase strike while the iron’s hot!!

mikeintexas,

If Martin wrote like Patterson, none of us would be here.

Only Quentyn actually arrived and meet Dany, the rest is still on their way. I mean if he really solved the issue why didn’t the others arrive, too? That would have given the whole book more story

He ran out of pages. Some of the other events were apparently written but held back due to space constraints. With ADWD it really came down to a matter of a few pages being the difference between it being published in one or two volumes. The argument could be made that other stuff from earlier in the book could have been deleted or condensed to fit a larger climax in, but that’s a different topic.

This is not the case, unlike network tv, HBO releases series at their own pace. (sopranos – 6 seasons in 8 years) they are much more likely to slow down to match George’s schedule than to force him to write faster.

Nope. HBO said the old days of a season every 18-24 months was not something they were going to repeat (and that was under a totally different regime to who’s in charge now). That hurt their audience figures and confused viewers as to when series were on. They’re dedicated now to having their shows on every year without fail. In addition, a season every 18 months is impractical without recasting almost all of the child actors, which is something else HBO would and should try to avoid.