Recap Roundup: Season 4, Episode 3 “Breaker of Chains”
By Bex on in Recap.

Looking back at the controversial “Breaker of Chains,” critics highlighted the themes of protection and dependence among characters of Westeros in the wake of the brutal death of King Joffrey, as well as lamented Jaime’s redemptive arc in this week’s roundup of written recaps.

BOOK READERS

Sean T. Collins – Rolling Stone

It’s hard to think of another single hour of this series that’s more engorged with incidents and ideas, or rich enough to sustain entire Tumblrs’ worth of analysis.

Charlie Jane Anders – io9

You might have thought the question of Game of Thrones going too far would have been moot a long time ago. This is the show that gave us “sexposition” and Joffrey brutalizing sex workers, after all. But a lot of people seem to feel as though one moment in last night’s episode was, finally, too much. Is the show finally pursuing shock value for the sake of shock value?

Alyssa Rosenberg – Washington Post

How do you endure what is unendurable? How do you get up and keep moving when the alternative is not just death, but a death that breaks your sense of what is permissible and humane?

Myles McNutt – Cultural Leanings

Game of Thrones functions in this strange space of clear structures mixed with completely vague ones. While the storyline at King’s Landing tends to function around major events—particularly this season, where Joffrey’s wedding is traded for Tyrion’s trial—other stories tend to meander.

Todd VanDerWerff – A.V. Club

A-; Throughout the episode, there are twin themes running alongside each other. In the first, we return again to the question of what makes one a good ruler…In the second theme, we consider the role of women in this world and how limited their options are in the face of male brutality. 

Additionally from A.V. Club, Sonia Saraiya asks why the showrunners are rewriting the books into misogyny

James Hibberd – Entertainment Weekly

After the king’s death last week, Westeros is full of passion. There’s Littlefinger perving on underage Sansa, Jaime forcing himself upon his sister, Prince Oberyn primed to screw everybody in King’s Landing, Sam obsessing about guarding Gilly’s ladyparts, lovelorn Ygritte slaughtering villagers and Daario making out with his dagger. But we start exactly where we left off: King’s Landing.

More book readers review and Unsullied react under the cut:

Nina Shen Rastogi - Vulture

In “Breaker of Chains,” everyone is reassessing their relationships and trying to figure out who can be counted on.  Am I the queen?, Margaery wonders. What about you, do you care for me?, Gilly asks Sam. Will you avenge our son?, Cersei implores Jaime.

Laura Hudson – Wired

One of the great strengths of Game of Thrones is that it isn’t afraid to change. Not only has it killed off some of its most popular characters, but over the last three seasons we’ve seen many—perhaps even most—of the cast evolve tremendously. And not just heroes like Daenerys, who started as a powerless victim and became a fearsome commander, but also several unpleasant villains who developed enough layers and dimensions that they suddenly didn’t seem quite as bad as they did before…This week’s episode is here to remind…us, of the truth: this is not a pleasant story.

Hudson also weighs in on the sept scene

Sarah Hughes – The Guardian

Things were a little bit calmer this week, as King’s Landing dealt with the fallout from Joffrey’s death, the Night’s Watch finally understood the danger they’re in, and Arya’s faith in humanity was shattered by Sandor. 

Eric Dodds – Time

Game of Thrones has always had an interest in history, in no small part because of the vast universe and backstory that George R.R. Martin built into his A Song of Fire and Ice novels. But in the fourth season of the HBO show, that interest has become an obsession…history has become both a specter hanging above the Westerosi’s heads and the driving force behind their decisions. 

Scott Meslow – The Week

More often than not, I like it when Game of Thrones changes on its way from the page to the screen. George R.R. Martin’s books are immersive and sprawling, and the TV series is admirably tighter and more narrative-driven. Both are totally successful in their distinct own ways….on the whole, the writers have done a stellar job streamlining and amending Martin’s story to fit the needs of a TV series. Until now. Sunday night’s “Breaker of Chains” makes an alteration so wrongheaded and baffling that it single-handedly threatens to derail the arcs of both Jaime and Cersei Lannister.

Matt Fowler – IGN

“Breaker of Chains” was a sturdy, lengthy episode filled with long scenes. We like it when the show spends longer amounts of time with certain people and situations than when it just pops in and out of their lives quickly…without a madman running things, what shall be the central conflict going forward? It will be interesting to find out.

Thomas Fitchenmayer – Esquire

“Breaker of Chains” character power rankings (Spoiler: Dany’s in the lead)

Additionally, ‘how the show is going wrong’

Elio Garcia – Westeros.org

“Breaker of Chains” is the most consistent of the three episodes this season, and if it does not reach the highs of the prior two episodes, it also doesn’t reach the lows. It’s very encouraging to see such a solid performance from the start of the season, suggesting that the producers have found a path forward through the complicated morass of structural changes that they made last season, hammering out a cohesive narrative that should entertain. There’s many mysteries left, with certain plot lines unclear at the moment, the next couple of episodes should provide some clarity and, hopefully, cause to hope that this may well be the strongest season since the first.

NEW VIEWERS

Erik Adams – A.V. Club

A-; This week, the Game Of Thrones is a game of defense. “Protect” or “protection” or any number of other synonyms is uttered by several characters populating David Benioff and D.B. Weiss’ script, and it’s a sign of the wide world fostered by the showrunners that “Breaker Of Chains” gives the word so many facets. 

David Malitz – Washington Post

This was a transition episode that moved some plots forward incrementally but mostly served to set up the rest of the season. It’s impossible to check in with everyone in the realm in a single episode, but we zipped all over this week, maybe even a little too much.

Kristy Puchko – The Mary Sue

Frankly, it was a kind of dull episode made up mostly of setups for future storylines. But that’s not to say there weren’t some standout moments. Benioff and Weiss gave us lots of bookkeeping, but they also offered blood, brutality, and butt cracks.

Jeremy Egner – ArtsBeat, New York Times

King Joffrey’s death brought no small amount of glee last week, his baroque villainy obscuring the moral ickiness of delighting in the murder of a child, even a malevolent fictional one. This week we paid for that satisfaction with an episode that was among the meanest in the show’s history…the creators of “Game of Thrones” methodically went subplot by subplot on Sunday, disabusing viewers of any cuddly feelings that threatened to form for quasi-sympathetic characters.

Peter Counter – Dork Shelf

It’s stomach-churning in all the ways Game of Thrones is known for, and yet again twists our expectations for these characters in ways one might have thought unimaginable…You’ve got to hand it to the showrunners for including a great deal of shocking moments and breathless action sequences in what is essentially a cool-down period from last week’s major death.

Alan Sepinwall – Hitfix

After the show devoted half of last week’s episode to the wedding, “Breaker of Chains” has some catching up to do, and we return to guided tour mode, bouncing all around Westeros, then stopping over in Essos, to see what most of the characters are up to, and how those who know of Joffrey’s murder are reacting to it.

(SPOILER WARNING: potential spoiler as to who killed Joff, as it hasn’t been explicitly revealed in the show as of yet)

Laura Stone – Hey, Don’t Judge Me

Holy smokes, so much happened in this episode. This is the problem with writing 800+ page books and turning those 800 page books into one season of TV. You have to cram loads into each episode…It is about to be on like Donkey Kong, folks. Game pieces are set and ready to strike. And I am ready to bear witness. (Great perspective on the sept scene)

Andy Greenwald – Grantland

As the scope and heft of Season 4 become apparent, the focus has gradually begun to shift from the powerful, established houses, with their swollen armies and multiplying debts, to a set of more nimble — and, it seems, more deadly — individuals. Unsentimental, dismissive of the old ways, and in thrall to no one but themselves, these are the figures best positioned to win because they’re playing a different game altogether.

Natalie Bochenski - Sydney Morning Herald

[This] episode replaced the joy of a righteous death with the skin-crawling discomfort of Watching Characters I Like Do Things Which Are Valuable To The Narrative But Still I Do Not Approve.

Brian Juergens – The Backlot

It seems  that I was a bit less taken by Joffrey’s prolonged farewell tour on last week’s Game of Thrones than some other viewers… in any case, this week’s lively episode was much more my speed.

Thanks to writers this week who posted disclaimers on their posts about spoilers and whether or not they’d read the books!

Do you agree with any particular critic this week? Out of curiosity, who are some of your favorites? As always, in the land of recaps, I am here to serve. Video fans can expect a post soon…


164 Comments

  1. Arya's Nose
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Eat all the chickens!

  2. Arya's Nose
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    Also, there’s no redemption for people who cripple children, so you can eat that sheee-ite too!

  3. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    LORD RAMSAY of HOUSE BOLTON.

  4. hey now
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    “Derail” their arcs? Some of these reviews are more dramatic than the show itself could ever hope to be. Let’s just see what happens and how they handle it.

    The whole show is fucking disturbing, all of a sudden rape is the problem? Puritan roots shining through perhaps.

  5. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    hey now,

    Lets all forget the fact that Theon almost got butt raped and not one of the internet feminist banded together to riot on the inter webs. To the dreadfort with these hypocrite fucks.

  6. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Actually the addition of an attempted rape by the torturers to Theon’s story (and the incident with Violet and Myranda which was rape as far as most were concerned) pissed off a lot of people, so that’s a straw man argument.
    And we’re not just feminists on the internet. :)

  7. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Hell, he got his dick got off. If that isn’t sexual violence, nothing is.

  8. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I don’t have anything against feminism as long as it isn’t first world problems like rising up against an awesome fantasy show. I support feminist movements that go on in the middle east because those are the women who fight for rights every day and no one seems to notice their struggle. just my two cents Fury

  9. lol
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    A cursory google search would have turned up lots of commentary about the threat of rape being used so much that episode, but go on railing against those evil feminist strawwomen.

  10. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    yeah I can see why people might be pissed off at it being character assassination (even though imo reading that scene Jaime from the books would have raped her in the same situation) but I cant see how people would see showing that scene to be a step too far.
    Rape is a terrible thing, but GoT has shown some stuff which was worse, in fact they even showed drogo raping dany in S1 a lot more graphically, and, even if people did complain, the objections never reached anything near this kind of level.

  11. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Hell, he got his dick got off. If that isn’t sexual violence, nothing is.

    Heck, that episode was even directed by a woman (MM)! There are plenty of equal opportunity rapey/sexually violent scenes in this series. Just wait until they attempt to film Arya’s “Mercy” chapter in an upcoming season (they probably won’t). Some of the fandom will definitely not be ready for that.

  12. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Looks like it’s mostly book reading recappers that are pissed off and outraged regarding the Sept scene. Unsullied writers like Andy Greenwald (especially Greenwald) are actually discussing some of the episodes meatier content and its implications for the series. Brilliant episode and I vouch for Greenwald’s articles, they’ve become my first port of call after an episode airs (after WiC).

  13. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Arya’s Nose,

    The reason why so many people are pissed of about the Jaime scene is that not only was it a rape which goes against his entire character but also the director of this episode is adamantly saying that it was not a rape and that it was consensual. You can’t have both in sorry. Why is it so hard for people to admit they completely botched this scene?

  14. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Arya’s Nose…is adamantly saying that it was not a rape and that it was consensual. You can’t have both in sorry.

    Weirdly enough I find the same fault in the book fans who insist it was consensual in the books when it really seemed to me as though Cersei capitulated. I don’t think it’s right to force yourself on anyone, even if they eventually buckle under your advances. That is assault. You are relying on their lust to overcome their objections. The word here isn’t consensual, it’s coercion. Nobody here on this forum would defend it if they saw it happening before their eyes. Maybe GRRM should have written the scene from Cersei’s POV rather than Jaime’s and fans would feel somewhat different.

  15. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Curtain call for Tony Way? Hello? (tap tap) Is this thing on?

  16. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Ser Pounce,

    Hell, he got his dick got off. If that isn’t sexual violence, nothing is.

    I didn’t know Ramsey was supposed to be a sympathetic, anti rape character on the road of redemption.

    I can’t believe that people are trying to defend this with: “Hey, so what if they made a main character a rapist even though he is not a rapist in the books and abhors rape! That doesn’t change things much, does it?”

    For that matter, they also don’t seem to think that it’s major departure to make Sandor a hypocrite, when he is the exact opposite in the books. “Hey, let’s rewrite a story where this guy is content to work for an honest wage until he is told to leave because his reputation catches up with him, into one where he just robs people.” Not as awful as making Jaime a rapist, but still an example of either not understanding or not caring about portraying the characters remotely accurately.

  17. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    My problem is the destruction of Jaime’s arc. It was clearly rape in the show and clearly not rape in the books. You can’t just brush something like that under the carpet.

    I loved a lot of scenes this episode but it goes to show that D&D, and Alex Graves, don’t understand the characters that well. I’ve been saying this about Stannis and now I’m saying it about Jaime.

    I find I enjoy the show more when I treat it as a separate entity from the books. These characters are simply different and doing their own thing. Some changes I love, some changes I hate. Overall though, the show is still amazing.

  18. Jared
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    hey now,

    The Internet punditry loves nothing more than when someone – anyone – gives them an opportunity to stand on a soapbox so that they can cry out “For Shame!” in the loudest and most grandiose terms possible. It’s what they live for – hell, it’s one of the reasons that they exist at all. The writers get to feel like they’re performing some kind of valuable public service by policing us on the perceived faults in our morality, and the people who own their websites get to cackle to themselves behind the scenes as the outrage drives page views and puts advertising revenue into their pockets. Everybody wins … except for those people who would like to discuss things in a balanced, reasonable manner. Those people who can appreciate the nuance and complexity of an intelligent conversation can’t be mobilized or monetized so easily, so these vultures (including Vulture) go after the easily outraged and the people who speak before they think.

    It shouldn’t surprise me, but it does in fact baffle me that THIS is the straw that broke the camel’s back, and that people, from the pundits to the worst of the commenters, can’t discuss it without slinging hateful accusations or ridiculous proclamations that our sad, corrupt little world is going to hell in a handbasket. Really? All because a character people liked on a television program people liked committed an act that they didn’t approve of, and because it was so much better in the BOOK (I’ve read the books, and it really isn’t). If someone tried to write an article about a real woman who actually got raped, no one would care, because no one wants to dwell on that kind of horror. But because it happened on a TV show watched by millions of people during their time of leisure? Well then. Let’s all go nuts!

    God willing, this wildly overblown controversy will be forgotten in a few weeks (hopefully sooner) and Those Who Shout Professionally will move on to the next development that stirs their outrage. In other words, business as usual for the Internet.

  19. Harry
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    Finally someone who speaks with reason

  20. Alice
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Rape < Murder

    If Jaime's arc was "derailed", it would have been in season 2 when he killed his cousin.

  21. d1gitals3rf
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    I’m reminded of all the couch-fainting that happened toward the end of THE SOPRANOS run. OMG – you mean Tony’s actually not just a lovable Mafia Huggy Bear?

    These are deeply twisted, damaged people. And if they lurch eventually toward more mildness, and righteousness, they are also going to stumble badly along the way.

    In the wider context of where the show is going and what they will become, we may look very differently at what was in this latest episode.

    That said, I can’t fault anyone for expressing their honest feelings about what they saw. It was disturbing from any perspective, and was meant to be.

  22. d1gitals3rf
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Alice:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Rape < Murder

    If Jaime’s arc was “derailed”, it would have been in season 2 when he killed his cousin.

    And this is an excellent point. I think this was the one truly poor decision the adaptation team are responsible for so far. Rewatchings haven’t helped me with this either.

  23. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Valaquen: Maybe GRRM should have written the scene from Cersei’s POV rather than Jaime’s and fans would feel somewhat different.

    I find that comment oddly refreshing. In fact, the scene in question did come across as if both J & C’s “severely dysfunctional” perspectives were considered. As others have stated, we should revisit this scene once the season is over and reserve judgment on Jaime’s supposed redemptive arc (which I find strange) until the follow-up events have played out. However, the passion that the fans uphold for the portrayal of their favorite characters in this series is quite remarkable.

    In any case, the professional reviews, for the most part are judging the episode on the sum of its parts, which is good. As the Wired review stated…“This week’s episode is here to remind…us, of the truth: this is not a pleasant story”

  24. Butterbumps
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Jared,

    I really like your balanced, reasonable posts, I really do. That is all.

  25. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce:
    Ours is the Fury,

    I don’t have anything against feminism as long as it isn’t first world problems like rising up against an awesome fantasy show. I support feminist movements that go on in the middle east because those are the women who fight for rights every day and no one seems to notice their struggle. just my two cents Fury

    Sorry, you’re saying feminists shouldn’t care about rape scenes on TV because of the middle east? Trust me, there are feminists even in the middle east who care about what happens on TV. They have TVs too. Women fight for rights all over the world. What happens in the media matters. We spend a lot of time sitting down in front of televisions and computers taking in this stuff. The thoughtless treatment of rape in the media in any context is not a “first world problem.” It doesn’t make me want to stop watching Game of Thrones, mind you, but to say we should not criticize these moments because there are other situations out there in the world does not compute.

  26. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Alice

    Rape < Murder

    If Jaime's arc was "derailed", it would have been in season 2 when he killed his cousin.

    Not sure why this was addressed to me. I didn’t say anything like this?

  27. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    It’s one thing to complain about how the rape has changed Jaime’s character (which I disagree with).

    But it’s another to say, like the Anders review, to say that it was one of the worst things portrayed on the show (“shock for shock’s value”).

    I’m a heterosexual male, and I would preferred to be raped anally once (and by someone who was in love with me! – like Jaime was with Cersei), then to endure a fraction of what Theon went through.

    Don’t get me wrong, rape is a horrible thing, but the outcry about this is way blown out of proportion.

  28. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Alice,

    I thought Jaime’s arc only really begins when he starts travelling with Brienne. The killing of Alton Lannister was pretty extreme but then again, this was a selfish imprisoned Jaime in dire circumstances. I didn’t find the scene to be particularly out of character although it made no sense as a legitimate escape attempt(why not simply conspire with Alton instead of killing him?).

    Jaime’s rape of Cersei just felt completely out of character to me. I suppose the only defense is that we’re not intimately familiar with their relationship prior to the Bran incident.

  29. Andy Gavin
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    While this episode isn’t as exciting as last week’s, it does what it needs to do, moving each of a dozen or so threads forward in the wake of the changes. But it sports some fine work from Tywin, Tyrion, Arya, and one of those resounding brings a tear to a geek’s eye Valyrian speeches. Charles Dance’s scenes are particularly great. As always, my detailed thoughts on the episode can be found on my blog.

  30. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Aye!!!!! Our blades are sharp!!!!

    Signed
    Poster formerly known as
    Theons dick in a box

  31. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Ser Pounce you are a gentleman and a scholar

  32. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Alice:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Rape < Murder

    If Jaime’s arc was “derailed”, it would have been in season 2 when he killed his cousin.

    I put the emphasis on the “if”. I never read it as a redemption story. And if it is, which it isn’t, then why is he not capable of being redeemed from a rape, but he can be redeemed from trying to murder a child, and then murdering a cousin?

  33. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    http://commonsensegotreviews.tumblr.com/post/83517673011/review-of-game-of-thrones-4-3-breaker-of-chains

    It’s a review, not a recap. Spends a good deal of time discussing the Jaime/Cersei scene.

    My take is that Jaime is an aggressive character whose worst qualities shine through when they help him get what he is obsessed and addicted to: his unhealthy relationship with Cersei. I think that somewhat explains why he was seeming to go good, but then took a major step backwards in order to have sex with Cersei.

  34. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    You can’t be redeemed from rape, but you can from trying to murder a child. Okay, got it.

  35. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I don’t think it counts as anything near “anti-rape.” Horrible acts are horrible, plain and simple, and I do not deny that the scene in the Sept, despite the production’s intentions, was a depiction of rape. People report mixed signals, but they were hardly explicit enough to telegraph anything else.

    As for Sandor’s supposed hypocrisy, I think he makes his position quite clear, even if I found it upsetting. Peasants are dead men walking to him, just waiting to be picked off by the coming cold or bandits combing the countryside. If he didn’t take the silver for himself, someone else would have come along to finish the job. That’s his cynicism, and it may be the truth. He draws a distinction between lifting money off those he considers glorified corpses and pilfering from the stores of someone with enough stature to deem such an act a crime. It’s the social hierarchy at work. The man and his daughter were less than people to him. While Sandor does not share his brother’s brutality, he has hardened himself to the smallfolk a great deal.

  36. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Everyone complaining about the destruction of Jaime’s arc need to understand this

    He commits incest with his sister
    He cripples and attempts to murder bran
    He kills the karstarks and his own kin trying to escape
    He bully’s Brienne until they are captured

    Now in the books he may have a more defined “hero turn” but let me ask any of you this. Most of those evils he committed were for the woman he loved. She spurs his advances upon coming back and talks down to him for being crippled. He sees her crying over Joffrey and tries to comfort her the only way he knows how. When he said I don’t care he was saying he didn’t care about them being in the sept near their dead son he wanted to show he was still there for her. If you can’t understand that then maybe this show is too complex for you.

    This world isn’t black and white. It is the finest example of the grey areas in life as I have ever seen on TV. I bet my retirement checks that there isn’t one person on this board who doesn’t have something in there past they have done that would make others think differently about them. That’s life and we all do things we aren’t proud of at times but we do them none the less

    To say this ruins Jamie pfft I think it makes him more relatable because it shows his addiction, his weakness, his vulnerability.

  37. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor: I loved a lot of scenes this episode but it goes to show that D&D, and Alex Graves, don’t understand the characters that well. I’ve been saying this about Stannis and now I’m saying it about Jaime.

    David Benioff said pretty clearly that Jaime is forcing himself on Cersei. Period. So whatever their changes from the book, he at least gets it. Whether you like it is of course another matter.

    Graves is another story. His inability to get that he was filming a rape scene is completely bonkers and makes me think they shouldn’t ever hire him again.
    Ours is the Fury,

    Since we’re on this, Fury, I’m curious on your view of A) the scene as shot and what it means for the characters, B) the change from the books, and C) whatever it is the hell Alex Graves thinks he was doing.

    I know, opening a can of worms, but what are message boards for? :)

    AND CURTAIN CALL FOR TONY WAY! HELLO?? IS THIS ON? NO? ER…WE LOVE YOU DONTOS?

  38. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    No, it’s the concept of a character arc. To put it in simple terms for you, as clearly that is all you are capable of, Jaime starts off as a pretty horrible person at the beginning of A Game of Thrones. Through his travels with Briene, however, he becomes a better, less selfish person. Thus in the second half of A Storm of Swords and onwards his actions are generally good. However, by making him rape Cersei in the tv show, this change in his character is undermined. At the very least, he is acting more like his selfish old self, which is not true to the changes that have happened to him. At the worst, he is behaving more selfishly than he ever has. Pushing Bran out of a window, whilst a terrible crime, can be seen as an attempt to save Cersei and her children from Robert’s inevitable wrath. Raping Cersei, however, is a purely destructive action.

  39. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Anonymous:
    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    You can’t be redeemed from rape, but you can from trying to murder a child.Okay, got it.

    Laughable almost isn’t it

  40. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I forgot to add that Jaime never acknowledges any regret or guilt about the attempted murder. If that was the case, I just might think that the story was a redemption arc.

  41. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    Anonymous,

    No, it’s the concept of a character arc. To put it in simple terms for you, as clearly that is all you are capable of, Jaime starts off as a pretty horrible person at the beginning of A Game of Thrones. Through his travels with Briene, however, he becomes a better, less selfish person. Thus in the second half of A Storm of Swords and onwards his actions are generally good. However, by making him rape Cersei in the tv show, this change in his character is undermined. At the very least, he is acting more like his selfish old self, which is not true to the changes that have happened to him. At the worst, he is behaving as selfishly as he ever has. Pushing Bran out of a window can be seen as an attempt to save Cersei and her children from Robert’s inevitable wrath. Raping Cersei is a purely selfish and destructive action.

    As with any change there is bound to be relapse at some point. It’s naive to think someone can suddenly change that takes time. I’m sure we will see Jaime continue to struggle with this but ultimately become like he is in the books

  42. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Ahh, I didn’t know Benioff said that. Interesting.

    It’s such a shame about Alex Graves. His interpretation of that scene is disturbing but he’s made three excellent episodes for the show and has been one of its best directors. Fortunately I don’t have time to read through the interviews in detail – I fear it would the whole thing seem more incongruous than it already is.

  43. Alice
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Oh, yeah, sorry. I wanted to quote this post:

    hey now:
    “Derail” their arcs? Some of these reviews are more dramatic than the show itself could ever hope to be. Let’s just see what happens and how they handle it.

    The whole show is fucking disturbing, all of a sudden rape is the problem? Puritan roots shining through perhaps.

  44. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp:

    This world isn’t black and white. It is the finest example of the grey areas in life as I have ever seen on TV. I bet my retirement checks that there isn’t one person on this board who doesn’t have something in there past they have done that would make others think differently about them. That’s life and we all do things we aren’t proud of at times but we do them none the less

    To say this ruins Jamie pfft I think it makes him more relatable because it shows his addiction, his weakness, his vulnerability.

    I completely agree with you. I actually approve of the change (approval of the story, not the act if it was a real act in real life). And as GRRM said, the situation is different. What Jaime does makes sense given the changed situation, meaning he has been in King’s Landing for a while now, and he has been spurned previously by Cersei.

  45. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I think having incest sex next to the corpse of your newly dead son is enough of a relapse as it is tbh.

  46. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I actually think that’s the point. The main reason he committed that awful act was to convince them both that he was still his old self. He wanted to force Cersei to receive him as she used to, and he used violence to break through the walls she’s been putting up since discovering he was maimed. He wanted to assume his former position again as her lover, and in doing so, believe that things haven’t fundamentally changed between them, within himself, within her. I really do see it as an act of desperation. In fact, a lot of rape actually is, not that it mitigates any of the horror of it.

    People are acting like the production straight-up shat the bed with this one. I really think people are reacting to the surface before engaging the actual content of the scene, in the context of the show, which is understandable considering the sensitivity of the issue, but still far from a definitive appraisal.

  47. K26dp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    Anonymous:
    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I forgot to add that Jaime never acknowledges any regret or guilt about the attempted murder.If that was the case, I just might think that the story was a redemption arc.

    He actually almost did on the show… “I murdered people to get back to you”… it’s actually more of an acknowledgement than in the books.

    I think folks are reading way to much redemption into his redemption arc. Even in the books, after in Feast and Dance he still threatens to trebuchet Edmure Tully’s child and takes a Blackwood kid as a hostage. Just because he’s not a sadist like Joffery or Ramsey, or a psycho like Euron, doesn’t mean Jaime isn’t a Bad Guy. An engaging, well-developed character, but a Bad Guy for all of that.

  48. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    I wasn’t terribly put off by Jaime’s slaying of Alton Lannister, but I wasn’t a huge fan of it either. I was surprised to hear that it was the scene Nikolaj reported to have really enjoyed shooting. He cited it as one of the highlights of his acting career to date at the time. Then, I realized that I was warping it with my own vantage. Clearly, what he experienced as an actor is a separate matter from what we experience from watching the show.

    I extend the same distinction to Alex Graves. After all, he didn’t write the material. I’m glad Benioff cleared the air on his end. Only he and Weiss are responsible for knowing the full intent of their own writing. Acting, and even filming a scene, is a largely separate matter. For the most part, actors and directors only know enough to capture a scene. They don’t always understand all the finer points of the material when there are these degrees of separation between them, elected or incidental.

    Also, most of us have had YEARS to form our preconceptions and entrench our preferences. The working folks are part of a very tightly run ship. I’m just glad they have enough of a grasp on the story to convey so much of what we love about the series in the first place, not to mention all the awesome non-book material we’ve seen this week.

  49. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    My reaction is completely independent of everyone else’s. I don’t think the production shat the bed, so to speak. I just thought it was a bad scene which wasn’t true to his character. Now I quite like your interpretation of Jaime at that moment, but I feel that if that were the case, D&D didn’t do enough to support that interpretation. Given his prior development in the show, it seemed out of character.

    Anyway, I’m off. Have fun debating!

  50. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    I think it’s great writing and very ballsy. D&D knew this was going to rub book purists the wrong way and it’s great seeing them upset

    Where were they when Drogo was spousal raping Dany? I never hear anyone complain about that

  51. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    That was a broader observation, not a targeted one. My response to you preceded it.

    I agree. While I stand by the scene and my interpretation, I deeply regret the ambiguity and the generally unknowable intent it presented to both readers and non-readers. I think at least part of this can be attributed to the show’s structure. We have to see the aftermath, the follow-up next week, to fully ascertain the show’s intent. At the same time, I found it very difficult to read the subtleties others have indicated concerning the scene. I found it helpful that this week’s GOO had a female host who observed Cersei to vacillate between consent and protest several times before ultimately protesting Jaime’s advances, but I honestly didn’t see it, whether it was her closing her legs around him momentarily or not. I take great care in my viewing, but I couldn’t see the complexity of the scene that I read about elsewhere. I am giving the show the benefit of the doubt regarding what it’s trying to accomplish there, but it was poorly presented if that was its actual intent.

  52. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    Anonymous,

    Raping Cersei, however, is a purely destructive action.

    The entire relationship is destructive. There is not a facet of this coupling that isn’t. Aside from literally spawning hate and malevolence in the form of Joffrey, it has caused irreparable harm throughout the Kingdoms in both direct and indirect ways. Jaime is about to realise that his ‘love’ or lust for Cersei has contributed to the sullying of his honour and name and the destruction of a kingdom. This will be a hard and scarring lesson, as it is in life. The showrunners and actors have said since S40E01 that Jaime is in the last vestiges of denial, trying to pretend that his journeying with Brienne didn’t happen, and that everything will be as before. He has lost his identity and the apparently only meaningful relationship he has known. He has further sullied his honour by killing his kin, all for the love of a woman he should never have been involved with (Jaime promised to kill everyone and anyone in S01E02 for Cersei – did viewers think it was “an idle threat”, to borrow Varys’ words?)

    There are a hundred complex threads running through this guy that all culminate in that moment in the Sept. When the foot-stomping and teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing has subsided then perhaps we can get back to looking at the episode in the scheme of the entire show rather than comparing it to a heavily biased (and frankly creepy, disturbing and pushy) POV chapter in a book that features as many rapes and bludgeonings as it does hot dinners.

  53. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I think having incest sex next to the corpse of your newly dead son is enough of a relapse as it is tbh.

    After losing a hand and killing people to get back to her I’m surprised he didn’t do it sooner but now we get to see if he stays true to his change or if he falls completely back to who he was. That makes a more compelling story and a reason to time in IMO

  54. Family, Duty, Hodor
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I felt Drogo raping Dany was more realistic and that the show version was better. The reasons should be obvious.

    So why is it you have to assume that everyone who hated that scene is a book purist?

    (rhetorical question btw, I’m not going to post further on this, or I’ll get fired IRL!)

  55. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    *tune…not time. Damn this autocorrect

    Can we get the edit function back please mods?

  56. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    I saw a parallel there too. Always thought that scene between them was surprisingly violent. She even asks him to let go of her in that moment, and he holds her there, professing his love through a verbal projection of his capacity for violence. It’s been a LONG time since we’ve seen that side of him with her in tow, but it existed then, and it didn’t surprise me to see him turn that same slumbering brutality on her in the wake of her prolonged rejection.

  57. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I’ll respond anyway

    Simply because most who don’t like it are saying it deviates from the book. That is all

  58. Bex
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    I’m a Theon fan who was pissed off if that counts for anything. Many of my compatriots were unhappy with the way his story was handled last season.

    But that’s a good point and I would have liked to have seen it discussed more. Maybe Theon is just that disliked.

  59. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    I’m tired of talking about this so I’m going to leave with two points.

    1) I’m impressed that there are quite a few people posting on this board that are have an intelligent take on show Jaime. On the internet! Really?

    2) It’s too bad that this has overshadowed what I considered a brilliant episode. I like how some of the reviews have acknowledged how good the episode was overall. It’s too bad that more people aren’t talking about Tywin and Tommen, Pod and Tyrion, Littlefinger and Sansa, to give just a few examples. I was very excited after watching the episode and then really, really disappointed to observe this outrage.

  60. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    Our Blades Are Sharp,

    I felt Drogo raping Dany was more realistic and that the show version was better. The reasons should be obvious

    So since those reasons should be obvious can you not see how obvious it is for Jamie to act the way he did standing next to the woman he loves crying over their dead child and wanting to console her?

    It’s not like they have never been together before hundreds of times. Dany and Drogo on their wedding night was their first time together but him raping her is ok in comparison?

  61. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Valaquen,

    I saw a parallel there too. Always thought that scene between them was surprisingly violent. She even asks him to let go of her in that moment, and he holds her there, professing his love through a verbal projection of his capacity for violence. It’s been a LONG time since we’ve seen that side of him with her in tow, but it existed then, and it didn’t surprise me to see him turn that same slumbering brutality on her in the wake of her prolonged rejection.

    Maybe some folk who watch the show by tallying how it corresponds to the book have forgotten about that scene? I was only recently reminded about it when I rewatched the first season before S4. He is very clearly being forceful with her to express his passion. Incest aside, this has never seemed like a healthy relationship – they are possessive, insanely jealous (of others and, in the case of Cersei, one another) and fueled by murderous passion and paranoia. They have murdered and schemed to preserve their relationship; now the whole mess is crumbling around them and the violence is being projected inward.

  62. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Bex,

    I’ve been privy to some disturbing reactions to both Theon’s and Cersei’s lowest lows. More than one galpal has expressed satisfaction with his gelding. A buddy of mine had a similar reaction to Jaime’s rape of Cersei, While he admitted it was an awful thing to say, he honestly thought she deserved it, along with any other ugliness coming for her.

    I find both Theon and Cersei far more sympathetic in the show than they ever were in the books, so color me surprised that people hold their faults against them through their darkest hours.

  63. jentario
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    probably the best GOT video I’ve ever seen on YouTube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qqTcznH8mc

  64. Anonymous
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    It seems that my previously attempted post didn’t make it through. Basically, I wanted to say two things.

    1) I’ve been discussing this rape issue for a while and I think I’ve had enough. But I am glad to see that there are people making good, intelligent points on this board. I am pleasantly surprised since the internet isn’t known for that.

    2) It’s too bad that this has overshadowed what I considered to be a brilliant episode. I wish more people were talking about that instead. There is Tywin and Tommen, Pod and Tyrion, Tywin and Oberyn, the Hound and Arya, to give a few examples. It seems that at least some of the reviews have appreciated the episode, and I am happy about that.

  65. Alice
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    Well, there is no arguing that kinslaying and raping are something Book!Jaime never did. Thus the “derailing”. I was just trying to emphasize that this uproar from book readers is quite hypocritical. The kinslaying should have been much more shocking for a Book!Jaime fan than the raping. I remember that some were nitpicking when it happened during season 2, but not nearly as much as the ones who have been crying character assassination for two days now.

    The way I see it, there are three different groups disappointed by this scene:

    1/ The Book!Jaime fans, or in general book readers who like it when D&D stay close to the book material. Those people are pissed off because D&D strayed from the material and chose to make a rapist out of Show!Jaime. I am just wondering why they waited until today to be pissed off. Show!Jaime was already established as a kinslayer in season 2 (which, again, is far worse than rapist in my book). Arguably, the raping is much more in character than the kinslaying.
    “The things I do for love.”
    If pushing a 9 year old child through the window is one of those things, rape can obviously be included into the mix. The rape should be interpreted as a manifestation (a violent one, sure, but still a manifestation) of Jaime’s wild passion for Cersei. Pointless kinslaying for a botched escape attempt definitely is not.

    2/ The “offended audience” that hasn’t read the books, who are strongly disapproving that what seemed to be a redeeming character, raped his sister. Those people would have been offended even if George RR Martin wrote it as a rape scene in the book. To them, I have nothing to say besides this: “If you thought rapecest is going too far, you haven’t been paying attention!”

    3/ The “offended audience” that has read the books, which is kind of a mix between 1 & 2. Let’s be honest here. If George had written the scene as rape, would you be offended while reading it? If it is the case, I seriously question why you bothered reading 5 books full of things far more disgusting than that… You should just be glad that they didn’t keep the menstruating component of this scene.

  66. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    K26dp: He actually almost did on the show… “I murdered people to get back to you”… it’s actually more of an acknowledgement than in the books.

    I think folks are reading way to much redemption into his redemption arc. Even in the books, after in Feast and Dance he still threatens to trebuchet Edmure Tully’s child and takes a Blackwood kid as a hostage. Just because he’s not a sadist like Joffery or Ramsey, or a psycho like Euron, doesn’t mean Jaime isn’t a Bad Guy. An engaging, well-developed character, but a Bad Guy for all of that.

    That’s not true. He doesn’t spend tons of time lamenting Bran but he does say to Cersei, when pleading for the relationship to go public, that he never regretted loving her, he only regretted the things he had to do to cover up that love. And then he says that boy at Winterfell…

    Doesn’t come close to excusing it, but he does comment on it and express remorse.

  67. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    I can’t blame them, but I believe they have forgotten. Not everyone has the luxury of immersing themselves in the show’s past and present.

    Again, a rape is a rape, and despite their history, I still classify Jaime’s action as such. At the same time, she uses him as much as he uses her. We just haven’t seen enough of their interactions to even begin to establish the nature of their relationship in the show. I’ve seen this reaction from non-readers here and there. They have very little context concerning these two, other than they were those beautiful, awful people first seen boinking in that tower who are totally related. They don’t know the depth of Cersei’s insecurities, her life-long frustration at being treated differently than Jaime after a certain early age, and her willingness to use him as her surrogate sword if the need should arise. While I get what Graves meant when he described the scene as a power struggle, there’s no way for any viewer to receive it as such when they don’t know the power Cersei holds over him. All we see is the brute force he exerts over her. All we know is she’s a schemer and felt like a whore sold to Robert Baratheon, especially after she learned his heart was already elsewhere. Cersei holds little power, but her former sway over Jaime was tremendous. We have no sense of that on the show. Damn the book comparisons. There are greater fogs to mow our way through.

    Also, while it was still a rape by any respectable definition of the word, I think it’s important to consider what Cersei’s reaction to this might be. I highly doubt she’ll emerge some shattered victim over this. I’m not justifying the act. I just think it’s worth focusing on what Jaime’s violation meant to her, and what transpires between the characters beyond this point. While I believe the execution was regrettably vague for what the production strove to achieve, we haven’t seen what the show makes of it, and thus any judgments concerning the scene are half-formed, as scenes are informed by each other to weave a greater whole.

    Huh, tangent. GRRM approved of the S1 Robert-Cersei conversation where they were incredibly honest to each other, but I don’t think that jives with the books very well. I don’t think Cersei ever loved Robert in ASOIAF.

  68. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Family, Duty, Hodor:
    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Ahh, I didn’t know Benioff said that. Interesting.

    It’s such a shame about Alex Graves. His interpretation of that scene is disturbing but he’s made three excellent episodes for the show and has been one of its best directors. Fortunately I don’t have time to read through the interviews in detail – I fear it would the whole thing seem more incongruous than it already is.

    To me it feels best to view the show as a show, and not try to work in the extended commentary we’re getting. It’s interesting, but I’m more interested in how the show deals with it. A sign that Cersei is uncomfortable or disturbed – she doesn’t even have to mention it directly to Jaime – would go a long way for me. That would show that D&D have it on their minds, and that there’s a character progression. Whether it’s the same as the books is immaterial – just that it happens, and that this isn’t just viewed as “sex” as Graves bewilderingly seems to think.

    WompWomp:
    Family, Duty, Hodor,

    I actually think that’s the point. The main reason he committed that awful act was to convince them both that he was still his old self. He wanted to force Cersei to receive him as she used to, and he used violence to break through the walls she’s been putting up since discovering he was maimed. He wanted to assume his former position again as her lover, and in doing so, believe that things haven’t fundamentally changed between them, within himself, within her. I really do see it as an act of desperation. In fact, a lot of rape actually is, not that it mitigates any of the horror of it.

    People are acting like the production straight-up shat the bed with this one. I really think people are reacting to the surface before engaging the actual content of the scene, in the context of the show, which is understandable considering the sensitivity of the issue, but still far from a definitive appraisal.

    This is also a good point.

    And we should remember that the product of their awful union is lying there dead on a table. This is not a healthy relationship. And this is the ultimate break in it. Could it have been done differently? Perhaps, yes, it could have been closer to “ugly sex” than an actual rape. But I’m ok with it as long as the show deals with the consequence of it and how it affects Cersei in particular.

    It seems like the criticism has come from a few directions:

    –The showrunners changed Jaime’s “redemption arc.” I’d argue that GRRM doesn’t do easy redemption arcs, so I find that to be nonsense.

    –The book was more ambiguous about the intent and presented it better, and if that was the show’s intent, they failed. I say this is a valid objection as many have had.

    –Jaime expresses disturbance at the rape of Aerys’ wife, at the marital rape of Cersei, and his rescue of Brienne. I’d argue here that the first two do not exist in the show, and are a product of the books, which are not the show, so they become invalid. On the latter, that can be explained through the way in which he views Cersei as his, and he’s reasserting their old relationship in a horrid way, and he wouldn’t act in such a way with a stranger. Because of course many men feel this way about what they see as “theirs.” (Which is also awful, of course.)

  69. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    jentario,

    My god, the “CAAAAAAAT” rewinds. Oh, my sides…

    On my end, that award goes to MEDIEVAL FUN-TIME WORLD, every time, until the end of time. That is, until MEDIEVAL FUN-TIME WORLD 2. :]

  70. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    This is one of my favorite episodes to date. I love it when GoT can keep me captivated with wonderfully character-driven dialogue. It barely crossed my mine that most of the material was manufactured for the show. It felt so natural. I think S4 is turning out to be incredible. Even Dany’s portion felt refreshed as opposed to rehashed. The metaphor bombs, as a Twitter user pointed out, were genius.

  71. lol
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    ITT: People who think rape culture is a “first world problem”.

  72. Alice
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    “The things I do for love.”

    Apparently, rape is one of them according to D&D. And why couldn’t it be, when throwing a child through the window is? I am quite sure that Book!Jaime would have raped Book!Cersei on the altar if she wasn’t up to it. The real question is why did they change it. In my opinion, they wanted the audience to feel sorry for Cersei. Since we are going to see a lot of her in the next seasons, I think consensual period sex next to her freshly dead born of incest son is a tougher sell than rapecest.

  73. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Exactly. On your last point, remember the books, where they each saw themselves as intertwined with one another (although, as we learned, for their own reasons). In the show, it’s referenced only one time that I can remember, when Cersei rationalizes their union to Ned. Their Twinbond. To have that fundamental fact of your life pulled from under your feet would certainly twist you in your attempts to resume that status quo. That is how I interpreted Jaime’s actions, horror aside.

  74. jentario
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Let’s settle this.

    The show fucked up. They did not mean to fuck up, they meant for it to become consensual by the end but it ended up not seeming at all consensual. It’s over and done, they did not mean for it to reach this level and they did not intend to portray Jamie that way. What they were trying to do was show us an already controversial and kinda rapey scene from the books. Needless to say, the show overraped the books in that scene by removing Cersei’s pleasant reaction (after a similar amount of fighting off). Who is to blame? Maybe D&D did not think it through when they were writing, maybe Alex Graves did not think it through when directing, maybe Lena and Nikolaj had a hand in this scene ending up so unquestionably rapey, maybe the editors put it together poorly. Maybe it’s a combination of these factors…

    So, what do we do next? Move on. They fucked up, this episode gets negative points, but now we should move on. These arguments are getting boring, really, and they are pointless. How about we all enjoy a very funny GOT parody instead?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qqTcznH8mc

  75. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Alice,

    Thank you. I feel the same way. It’s not approving the action to think it’s within the bounds of his character, considering the concept of their unbreakable union is the ONLY surviving truth of Jaime’s past life to make it to King’s Landing. In the face of her resistance, it’s no surprise that he resorts to his baser means as a man of action. It’s hard to say whether there’s any true love between them. He’s acting to assert his old identity, after she has recognized that it no longer exists. In the show, I think they’re making Cersei’s rejection of Jaime more of a firm point than GRRM did. We shall see.

  76. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    WompWomp:
    Annara Snow,

    I don’t think it counts as anything near “anti-rape.” Horrible acts are horrible, plain and simple, and I do not deny that the scene in the Sept, despite the production’s intentions, was a depiction of rape. People report mixed signals, but they were hardly explicit enough to telegraph anything else.

    As for Sandor’s supposed hypocrisy, I think he makes his position quite clear, even if I found it upsetting. Peasants are dead men walking to him, just waiting to be picked off by the coming cold or bandits combing the countryside. If he didn’t take the silver for himself, someone else would have come along to finish the job. That’s his cynicism, and it may be the truth. He draws a distinction between lifting money off those he considers glorified corpses and pilfering from the stores of someone with enough stature to deem such an act a crime. It’s the social hierarchy at work. The man and his daughter were less than people to him. While Sandor does not share his brother’s brutality, he has hardened himself to the smallfolk a great deal.

    Oh, well, that’s OK then – instead of a character who despises knights and their hypocrisy, on TV he is a character who despises the smallfolk and doesn’t consider them human. Same thing, right? If you enjoy this character, that’s fine, but let’s not pretend it’s the same character from the books.

    I don’t know what you mean in your first paragraph. Jaime is very anti – rape in the books, and does not try to “punish” Cersei with rape. When he gets disillusioned with her, he rejects her. The apologies used here, such as “but we’ve seen worse things done by Ramsey/random assholes!” or “but he’s not a good dude! He’s done bad things, and this means he would do any other sort of bad things that cross the writers’ minds” are pathetic. It’s as if people don’t understand the concept of characterization and out of character behavior, and the only character traits are “good” and “bad”. Quite ironic for the fandom of a series known for its moral ambiguity. It’s not a problem when morally grey characters do something bad, it’s when they do something that’s so OOC.

    And it’s going to get worse because his arc is no doubt going to proceed the same as in the book in the very next episode, so it will look like rape is not a big deal, even to Cersei. Expect a lot of anger and cognitive dissonance on the part of the Unsullied then.

  77. Valyrian Plastic
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    This needs to go up on here IMMEDIATELY! :D x1,000,000

    Up there with the Birthday Rap, (House Baratheon) Black & Yellow & We Can’t Stop!

  78. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: It’s not a problem when morally grey characters do something bad, it’s when they do something that’s so OOC.

    The problem here is that you’re defining him acting “out of character” in relationship to the book. This person is not the book character. Two separate characters. Period.

  79. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    I was actually upset by his behavior, like Arya was. I just didn’t see it as a creative dud. He made his point clear enough, and it was consistent with his past behavior, such as the slaying of Micah. Also, the fact he’s still walking and talking is more than enough for me to separate him from the book character, who I love dearly as well. I generally resist book-derived expectations unless it involves the truly major story beats. The Hound isn’t cruel in a senseless fashion, though he is callous from years of service to landed lords and a past marked by abuse. His actions were believable to me. I truly believe he sees peasants as beneath his consideration aside from the fundamental courtesy of not inflicting unnecessary harm on them.

    I’ve written more than I wanted to on the Jaime-Cersei scene here, so I’ll excuse myself from the discussion for now.

  80. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen: Maybe some folk who watch the show by tallying how it corresponds to the book have forgotten about that scene? I was only recently reminded about it when I rewatched the first season before S4. He is very clearly being forceful with her to express his passion. Incest aside, this has never seemed like a healthy relationship – they are possessive, insanely jealous (of others and, in the case of Cersei, one another) and fueled by murderous passion and paranoia. They have murdered and schemed to preserve their relationship; now the whole mess is crumbling around them and the violence is being projected inward.

    Except he is never forceful because he wants to punish her, or because he thinks he has the right to “to take what’s his” even when she rejects him. And when he later starts finding her hateful, he rejects her. See how those “minor” details aren’t minor at all and entirely change the perception of a character?

  81. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Oh, well, that’s OK then – instead of a character who despises knights and their hypocrisy, on TV he is a character who despises the smallfolk and doesn’t consider them human. Same thing, right? If you enjoy this character, that’s fine, but let’s not pretend it’s the same character from the books.

    This, meanwhile, I find to be the most minor of changes. In the book he screws over a ferryman by giving him his promissory note that he got from the BwB rather than actual silver. It’s a total dick move. This is a bit more harsh, but this is the Hound, here. Why is it what he says in one episode becomes gospel to the point that he cannot change his actions later, bad or good, code or not? Who says he hates the smallfolk? He doesn’t. He victimizes this guy to survive. Period. He hates the knight culture, and that’s well established in the show, still.

  82. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: The problem here is that you’re defining him acting “out of character” in relationship to the book. This person is not the book character. Two separate characters. Period.

    Snow can’t seem to understand that concept. I’ve tried. Which is a shame because there is so much missed enjoyment when negatively focusing on the differences bewtween the two.

    Saying “This isn’t right” while on her back is very similar to what was said in the book, alluding to the fact that now was not the time or place. And just like the book, Jaime did not care.

  83. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    Nope. Because we finally realize that show Jaime is no longer going to base his actions on gaining Cerseis approval. He is no longer going to be manipulated. Its a pivotal moment for show Jaime.

  84. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Annara Snow,

    I was actually upset by his behavior, like Arya was. I just didn’t see it as a creative dud. He made his point clear enough, and it was consistent with his past behavior, such as the slaying of Micah.

    Except he never used that justification in the books – he’s cynical and nihilistic and angry, but he never claims that it’s OK to kill the smallfolk because they are somehow less than human. He may say that he kills because the world is awful and it’s the only way to be, the strong will kill the weak (and he did say that to Sansa), but contempt for the lower classes is a Tywin Lannister thing, not Sandor Clegane thing. He’s done terrible things during all those years of service and he knows that. The only time he tries to justify the murder of Mycah is when he’s confronted by Arya and the Brotherhood and comes up with the official version: “He attacked the crown prince.” Then when Arya confronts him about it and says it’s BS, he never tries to justify it again. Instead, at the end of that scene (in which he’s having an emotional meltdown in the book because of his fire phobia, and cries “like a baby” – but TV Sandor cannot be allowed to be vulnerable and cry!) he admits his crimes – the murder of Mycah, as well as the things he stood by and let happen (the KG beating up Sansa at Joffrey’s orders, Ned’s beheading). The same things he lists as his crimes when he’s trying to get Arya to kill him. And then he never wants to hear Mycah’s name again and react badly when Arya mentions him – so yeah, I would say that he understands there’s really no justification.

    But, as I said, TV!Sandor just isn’t the same character as book!Sandor, and the TV material D&D are writing for him increasingly seems like random antihero stuff rather than something that comes from his characterization.

    And I don’t see how character being alive for longer than in the books justifies changes in characterization.

  85. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: The problem here is that you’re defining him acting “out of character” in relationship to the book. This person is not the book character. Two separate characters. Period.

    Which is exactly what I’ve said. These are not the book characters. This is not a faithful adaptation of ASOAIF. So let’s not pretend it is, shall we? I’m not sure why they’re even bothering to get GRRM to write an episode per season and talking about “adapting the saga”.

    I wish they had used different names for many of these characters like they did with Talisa and Jeyne.

  86. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Annara Snow,

    Nope. Because we finally realize that show Jaime is no longer going to base his actions on gaining Cerseis approval. He is no longer going to be manipulated. Its a pivotal moment for show Jaime.

    I’m not sure what exactly you’re replying to. Are you saying that they had to have him rape her in order for him to stop being manipulated by her? Amazingly, that storyline worked just fine in the book without rape.

  87. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    “And it’s going to get worse because his arc is no doubt going to proceed the same as in the book in the very next episode, so it will look like rape is not a big deal, even to Cersei. Expect a lot of anger and cognitive dissonance on the part of the Unsullied then.”

    This is how I feel it will go as well. The actions of the previous episode won’t mesh with the coming episodes. I have no doubt D&D saw the scene they wrote as being the same, or similar enough, to the book scene. They won’t acknowledge it further in the show. Imagine the unsullied reaction when Jaime tasks Brienne with his “honor”.

  88. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: This, meanwhile, I find to be the most minor of changes. In the book he screws over a ferryman by giving him his promissory note that he got from the BwB rather than actual silver. It’s a total dick move. This is a bit more harsh, but this is the Hound, here. Why is it what he says in one episode becomes gospel to the point that he cannot change his actions later, bad or good, code or not? Who says he hates the smallfolk? He doesn’t. He victimizes this guy to survive. Period. He hates the knight culture, and that’s well established in the show, still.

    Yes, working honestly for a wage until he is told to leave because his reputation has caught up with him => robbing people without regret = minor change.

    The ferryman didn’t offer him hospitality and he had no other way to cross the river. There’s a difference between doing a dickish thing when there’s no alternative, and choosing to be a dick when you have a choice.

    “Why is it what he says in one episode becomes gospel to the point that he cannot change his actions later, bad or good, code or not? ”

    I dunno, maybe because it makes him look like a total hypocrite, and he (or at least his book counterpart) is a character whose defining trait, or one of them, is that he hates hypocrisy? But let’s just have him talk about a ‘code’, and then have him break it two episodes later.

    “Who says he hates the smallfolk?”

    Womp Womp, in one of the posts above. Well, not “hate” but that he doesn’t consider them human, which is worse. That’s his interpretation, at least, which is apparently supposed to make it better.

  89. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber:
    It seems like the criticism has come from a few directions:

    –The showrunners changed Jaime’s “redemption arc.” I’d argue that GRRM doesn’t do easy redemption arcs, so I find that to be nonsense.

    –The book was more ambiguous about the intent and presented it better…

    I respect what you and WompWomp (and many others) have said about this topic (and thanks, Jentario, for your thoughts and link too) but if you believe this statement, why the Alex Graves hate? He has contributed many stunning moments to the series. I think this is exactly the distinction the showrunners want to make from the books and the implied flawed assumptions about so-called “redemption” arcs. Perhaps this is giving a bit away of what they know of the end-game?

  90. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    No because I am not stigmatizing the scene in the show as a purely “rape” scene. I think both book and show had rape and debauchery and were disgustingly disturbing. Just because Cersei missed Jaimes dick and blantanly says so doesnt mean the sex still wasnt forceful.

    The realization that Cersei is a “hateful” woman is the pivotal part. Jaime is breaking away from her in a violent way physically and is refuting her mentally by not agreeing to kill Tyrion.

  91. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    The hate is a reaction to the statements Graves has made concerning the scene. He characterized it as a power struggle, and muddied the waters by describing the coupling as eventually consensual despite strong impressions of the contrary. While I accept the scene as a credible portrayal of the characters, I don’t think the final cut supported his description very well, and people are jumping on him over that lapse. It also didn’t help that he described that scene as one of the more gratifying professional experiences of his career. That certainly rubbed folks the wrong way.

    I mention above that Nikolaj had similar sentiments regarding Jaime’s braining of Alton Lannister, citing it as a memorable professional experience despite its reception among the more vocal fandom. I think we should realize that filming/acting/producing a scene is not the same as watching one. Also, being a director and realizing someone else’s writing (GRRM’s and D&D’s) doesn’t make you a guru on the material People are holding Graves to a lot he isn’t strictly responsible for. It’s frankly appalling, despite my personal qualms regarding the ambiguity of the scene for those less familiar with the material.

  92. Anzah
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Basically “my interpretation of the character is not on-screen! How did this happen, given that I’m not at all part of the writing/producing process of the show! How dare people have different interpretations of MY characters! How dare they simplify stuff so they can fit ginormous plots and characters into a 10-hour season!”

    The great thing about books is the movie that plays in your head is your favourite version. But it’s not the ONLY version. The showrunners have given us a show that is better than it has any right to be. Let some things slide, people. You’ll feel better. At the end of the day, it’s just a show, it’s just a book. I know it’s hard, as it’s hard for me too, to separate life from fiction that we love as much as we do. Sure I’d like to see Donal Noye, I don’t want jar babies, I don’t think the Sept scene needed to even exist now that Jaime was back for weeks and the context was all wrong, sure I’d like the cast to be more ethically diverse (Asian Melisandre!), but the show is not MY definitive version of the books, it’s just an interpretation that is readily accessible, gives people a view into one of the greatest fiction books of our time and it gives us all so much more to talk about. But the next time I pick up the books again, Robb will be 14 again and Dany will be 13, the White Walkers will be scarier, the Iron Throne will be huge and so would the direwolves, Coldhands would be there and so would Strong Belwas and all the rest. Enjoy the show for what it is. A show. Enjoy your imagination for the endless realms it can summon. That is all.

  93. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: Which is exactly what I’ve said. These are not the book characters. This is not a faithful adaptation of ASOAIF. So let’s not pretend it is, shall we? I’m not sure why they’re even bothering to get GRRM to write an episode per season and talking about “adapting the saga”.

    I wish they had used different names for many of these characters like they did with Talisa and Jeyne.

    These are not the book characters.

    It is an “adaptation.” Adaptation does not = stenography. If that’s what you desire, the first two Harry Potter films will serve well.

    Hodor’s Bastard: I respect what you and WompWomp (and many others) have said about this topic (and thanks, Jentario, for your thoughts and link too) but if you believe this statement, why the Alex Graves hate? He has contributed many stunning moments to the series. I think this is exactly the distinction the showrunners want to make from the books and the implied flawed assumptions about so-called “redemption” arcs. Perhaps this is giving a bit away of what they know of the end-game?

    Ah, the Graves hate comes more from his comments than the show itself. If he thought he was filming a sex scene, and referring to it as consensual sex, well, it’s a weird, concerning view on his part, IMHO.

    That said, in previous comments I’d said that what Graves says doesn’t really matter – it doesn’t appear in the show, and we should value the show as a show. And with that in mind, I should stop talking about Graves (my way of saying, fair point to you on that).

  94. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Hodor Targaryen,

    I think that somewhat explains why he was seeming to go good, but then took a major step backwards in order to have sex with Cersei.

    Your mention of addiction brings up a good point. With real people, the road to redemption, particularly addicts, is never completely straight nor completely in a single direction. People screw up, fall back, fall down, relapse, get up again, stumble forward, try again, etc. Some only ever go so far on the path to redemption and stall. The ones who do make it still have very squirrely paths and you have to look back on the journey to see it’s redemptive arc. Jaime is very much dependent upon Cersei in the most unhealthy way and that is VERY reflective of the illness of addiction. I, for one, don’t expect him to only ever be better and better because it’s simply not real–that’s how it happens in Fairy Tales. So this bad behavior is not out of line for the show Jaime and it’s naive for anyone to expect it to continue in some perfect redemptive arc. Fairy Tales are not what GRRM writes and it’s obviously not what D&D want to portray.

  95. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Anzah:
    Basically “my interpretation of the character is not on-screen! How did this happen, given that I’m not at all part of the writing/producing process of the show! How dare people have different interpretations of MY characters! How dare they simplify stuff so they can fit ginormous plots and characters into a 10-hour season!”

    Yes, because making a non-rapist character into a rapist is just a matter of interpretation.

    Let’s take a few more characters and give them crimes they do not commit in the books – rape, domestic abuse, child abuse, you name it… it’s just a different interpretation, folks.

  96. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    It appears that I have overstated my interpretation of his attitude towards commoners. The Hound is an uncommonly hardened man. He can sort out the types that can make it and those that cannot. He has definitely steeled himself against what he sees as the hopeless cases of the world, those without the means to survive, which is not just limited to money but the strength to survive. As far as he saw, the farmer and his daughter were ripe for the picking by the cruel, unfeeling hand of the elements or the bent blades of the roving scum of the earth. If he didn’t take their silver for himself, someone else would have lifted it off of them, most likely over their bloodied, ravaged corpses. His only express goal being his own survival, of course Sandor would rather take their silver for himself rather than allow death, in one of its inevitable forms, part them from it. This is his rationalization.

  97. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber: These are not the book characters.

    It is an “adaptation.” Adaptation does not = stenography. If that’s what you desire, the first two Harry Potter films will serve well.

    You don’t seem to understand what “adaptation” means. The fact that you equal the lack of complete changes to characterization to “stenography” is pretty baffling.

  98. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    From Andy Greenwald’s recap:

    Much has been written about how Sansa is essentially a fairy-tale heroine who accidentally wandered into a grind house. With her lemon cakes and dreamy grief, she was as out of place in King’s Landing as a conscience.

    If I can’t be GRRM when I grow up, I want to be Andy Greenwald. His recaps are terrific. He certainly can turn a phrase.

  99. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    Annara Snow,

    No because I am not stigmatizing the scene in the show as a purely “rape” scene. I think both book and show had rape and debauchery and were disgustingly disturbing.Just because Cersei missed Jaimes dick and blantanly says so doesnt mean the sex still wasnt forceful.

    The realization that Cersei is a “hateful” woman is the pivotal part.Jaime is breaking away from her in a violent way physically and is refuting her mentally by not agreeing to kill Tyrion.

    The majority of the Unsullied seem to have seen it unambiguously as rape. That should tell you something. If the intent in shooting that scene was different, there was a failure in the execution.

  100. Anzah
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    You know what? It actually is. I didn’t LIKE the scene, the book scene wasn’t so clear either (as it isn’t supposed to be). And anyway, like I said if you bothered to read all the crap I wrote, I didn’t think they needed to add the scene at all since the context for it vanished. So yes, stupid mistake. But I’d like to enjoy my life and enjoy the rest of the episode that was pretty solid.
    Also, this isn’t real life. You could try channeling all this hate into actual causes that would actually mean something.

  101. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp:
    Hodor’s Bastard,
    The hate is a reaction to the statements Graves has made concerning the scene. He characterized it as a power struggle, and muddied the waters by describing the coupling as eventually consensual despite strong impressions of the contrary. While I accept the scene as a credible portrayal of the characters, I don’t think the final cut supported his description very well, and people are jumping on him over that lapse. It also didn’t help that he described that scene as one of the more gratifying professional experiences of his career. That certainly rubbed folks the wrong way.

    I mention above that Nikolaj had similar sentiments regarding Jaime’s braining of Alton Lannister, citing it as a memorable professional experience despite its reception among the more vocal fandom. I think we should realize that filming/acting/producing a scene is not the same as watching one. Also, being a director and realizing someone else’s writing (GRRM’s and D&D’s) doesn’t make you a guru on the material People are holding Graves to a lot he isn’t strictly responsible for. It’s frankly appalling, despite my personal qualms regarding the ambiguity of the scene for those less familiar with the material.

    Thx, WW. It’s the so-called expert “redemptive arc” BS claims that have me irked. The show is simply emphasizing the negative aspects of Jaime’s character. The scene fit what I expected an emotionally and physically dysfunctional Jaime would do to his “hateful” lover in a moment of dysfunctional passion. And we will see the dysfunctional results (hopefully) as well. Patience folks….judgment needs to come at the end of the season arc.

    As far as Graves goes, was there a video of his response, or was it all written? We need to hear the inflection in his voice as he responded to the question. That cannot be captured very well in written article.

  102. Chris Rock
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Jaime spent weeks in captivity. He murdered his cousin. He lost a hand. All so he could get back to Cersei, and she treats him like dirt. I’m not saying he should have raped her….BUT I UNDERSTAND!

  103. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Annara Snow,

    This is how I feel it will go as well. The actions of the previous episode won’t mesh with the coming episodes. I have no doubt D&D saw the scene they wrote as being the same, or similar enough, to the book scene. They won’t acknowledge it further in the show. Imagine the unsullied reaction when Jaime tasks Brienne with his “honor”.

    Pretty much agree with all of this. The fact that the rape is not going to be addressed by the show in the future is going to rub people the wrong way. Next episode preview we see Cersei and Jaime fine like nothing happened. Also, starting Jaime’s redemption arc again with Brienne will seem very dissonant with last weeks episode

  104. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: I’m not sure what exactly you’re replying to. Are you saying that they had to have him rape her in order for him to stop being manipulated by her? Amazingly, that storyline worked just fine in the book without rape.

    Drogo raped Dany… Theon was almost raped and had his pink mast hacked off… The Thenns murdered a whole village and told a child they were gonna eat his parents… Craster rapes his daughter/wives… 2 abortions have been performed one with blood magic one at the red wedding… LF pervs on Sansa and shoots Dontos in the FACE… Joffrey hangs Ros to his bed and shoots her full of arrows…red wedding…purple wedding..

    Do I really need to continue you’re gonna keep watching like the rest of us but why didn’t you raise a fuss when all these events happened?

    Oh by the way

    Jaime pushes a kid out of a window
    Kills his cousin and Karstark kids
    Bullies Brienne until they are captured(which if they were never captured he either would have killed her or locked her in the black cells upon returning to kings landing)

    And he did all this to carry on his incestious relationship with his sister

  105. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yeah, it really doesn’t serve anyone to force such strictures on the show. When it suits your expectations, you pat the production on the back. When it doesn’t, you rain fire and blood and bile on it, hoping it will bend and beg for your approval. It sounds like an unpleasant experience. I honestly think this has been the strongest start the show has ever enjoyed. If it’s ignorance that allows me to feel this way, thanks, ignorance!

  106. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: The majority of the Unsullied seem to have seen it unambiguously as rape. That should tell you something. If the intent in shooting that scene was different, there was a failure in the execution.

    Which is fine if that is how they interpret it. However upon rewatch it seems to me that once Cersei ceases to say “No” and starts saying “This isn’t right” the implication shifts from just having forceful sex to having forceful sex next to her dead son in a holy place, which was clearly “not right”

    From what I remember in the passage from the book, that was Cersei’s biggest gripe about Jaime forcing himself on her.

  107. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yes, it was all written. Transcribed, I suppose, or remotely conducted. Sites seldom distinguish between the two.

  108. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    I think the majority of unsullied are more appalled by the Wildlinng attack on the villagers. Telling a young child that they area going to eat his mom and dad and seeing that bitch Ygritte shoot the boys father is far more disturbing.

  109. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow: You don’t seem to understand what “adaptation” means. The fact that you equal the lack of complete changes to characterization to “stenography” is pretty baffling.

    Adaptation does not equal fealty. Period.

  110. David Jones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    I just watched the “rape scene”, really can’t see what the fuss was about, it proceeds very similarly to the same scene in the book. My impression was that Cersei is resistant at first not because she doesn’t want to have sex, but because she is afraid of being discovered (and feeling ambivalent due to Joffrey’s corpse being next to them) but gives in to her passions as Jaime keeps pressing.(ie precisely like the book).

    In fact it could be argued that Cersei tries to fight him off more in the book (she pounds on his chest at first, where as in the show she returns his kiss and doesn’t make any attempt to struggle. Now I admit that as a book reader my impression will likely have been influenced by what I read and that non-readers may have interpreted the scene differently, (they really should have made it longer by 5 seconds to show that Cersei had stopped protesting).

    However it was no more oppressive than a James Bond seduction during the Connery era; man aggressively pursues a woman who is initially against sex, but changes mind as he continues. Now don’t get me wrong I’m not condoning this kind of behaviour and it is symbolic of a bygone age where sexism and mysogyny were more acceptable. However Westeros is a mysogynistic society.

    Also the quote from Benioff that Jaime is forcing himself on his sister does not mean that the scene was intended to depict a rape, simply that he is the one who initiates the sex and that she is not in the mood at first, (ie precisely the same as the book).

  111. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Ugh. I hate that I cant edit. I meant “majority of unsullied should be more appalled”

  112. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak: The fact that the rape is not going to be addressed by the show in the future is going to rub people the wrong way. Next episode preview we see Cersei and Jaime fine like nothing happened.

    You don’t know this. You have not seen the episode. This is conjecture. Next week, comments on that are valid.

  113. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Very much agreed. It’s far too early for “I told you so.”

  114. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Anzah:
    Annara Snow,

    You know what? It actually is. I didn’t LIKE the scene, the book scene wasn’t so clear either (as it isn’t supposed to be). And anyway, like I said if you bothered to read all the crap I wrote, I didn’t think they needed to add the scene at all since the context for it vanished. So yes, stupid mistake. But I’d like to enjoy my life and enjoy the rest of the episode that was pretty solid.
    Also, this isn’t real life. You could try channeling all this hate into actual causes that would actually mean something.

    There’s nothing quite like seeing a person who’s been devoting time and energy to an online discussion tell a person they’re arguing with: “You really shouldn’t be devoting your time and energy to this discussion.”

    The amazing thing is that so many people seem to think it’s a good argument to use. I guess they must not be familiar with the concept of “pot calling kettle black.”

  115. WompWomp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    Are you on mobile? I find I only can’t edit from my phone.

  116. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Yeppers.

  117. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Rygar:
    I think the majority of unsullied are more appalled by the Wildlinng attack on the villagers. Telling a young childthat they area going to eat his mom and dad and seeing that bitch Ygritte shoot the boys father is far more disturbing.

    Away from online hysterics, I haven’t seen or heard one unsullied complain about the scene. Obviously I have a small sample pool, culled from personal friends, acquaintances, and the unsullied that I watch the show with. My fellow book reading friends likewise didn’t complain, and I’ve had a conversation or two about GRRM’s version being nasty once stripped of the POV. The thing about online hysteria is that much of it is manufactured by people with an axe to grind or websites exploiting outrage for clickbait. Some other people just like being outraged. Others simply like the controversy and chaos. They might consider themselves little Littlefingers.

    I do think the scene could have been shot better, but merely to avoid this nonsense (perhaps merely by lingering on Cersei’s capitulation a little longer, as if coercion rather than outright rape would make book readers feel better). I get the impression from time to time that there are elements of the fanbase who are constantly gearing up to be excessively angry about something, and are determined to hijack and steer the conversation away from the episode’s more remarkable moments, merely to fixate on their own personal outrages with the same tireless refrain: “The books! The books!” Oftentimes this comes with an agonisingly patronising agreement that someone must protect the unsullied viewers from either their own interpretations or those of the show.

    I’m just waiting for some clever website to add the suffix “-gate” to this whole mess.

    David Jones:

    However it was no more oppressive than a James Bond seduction during the Connery era; man aggressively pursues a woman who is initially against sex, but changes mind as he continues. Now don’t get me wrong I’m not condoning this kind of behaviour and it is symbolic of a bygone age where sexism and mysogyny were more acceptable. However Westeros is a mysogynistic society.

    There’s also a parallel in Blade Runner. Watch the “love scene” in that movie. Actress Sean Young broke down during its filming.

  118. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    Exactly. This is being blown out of proportion for very specific reasons. I don’t mind the Sullied complaining that it is a change and that they shouldn’t have changed the timeline etc. because I expected that. What I do mind is the bloggers and journalists who are making it part of their ideological campaigns and making very nasty implications about Alex Graves and Nikolkaj Coster-Waldaue based on their comments. Those writers are opportunistic disgusting shills who live to tar and defame names. Their outrage articles are like mad-libs, they just throw in new names of the new “offenders” and publish.

  119. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: Thx, WW. It’s the so-called expert “redemptive arc” BS claims that have me irked. The show is simply emphasizing the negative aspects of Jaime’s character. The scene fit what I expected an emotionally and physically dysfunctional Jaime would do to his “hateful” lover in a moment of dysfunctional passion. And we will see the dysfunctional results (hopefully) as well. Patience folks….judgment needs to come at the end of the season arc.

    As far as Graves goes, was there a video of his response, or was it all written? We need to hear the inflection in his voice as he responded to the question. That cannot be captured very well in written article.

    Please tell me which part of Graves comments needs audio for you to understand what he meant? Here’s the excerpt

    “It’s my cut of the scene,” he says. “The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.”

  120. Anzah
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Annara Snow,

    The point is not to rage over it and refuse to discuss it rationally. And a “NO, YOU!” comeback isn’t exactly so clever either.

  121. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    And those are fair points on his part. Alex Graves is not an idiot, he has a good understanding of Lena’s character and respects her very strongly too. All of that is abundantly evident in his commentary with her and Diana Rigg on “And Now His Watch is Ended”. Those who are insulting Graves and implying things about him based on a single blurb are being extremelely irresponsible.

  122. tdraicer
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    >No, it’s the concept of a character arc. To put it in simple terms for you, as clearly that is all you are capable of, Jaime starts off as a pretty horrible person at the beginning of A Game of Thrones. Through his travels with Briene, however, he becomes a better, less selfish person. Thus in the second half of A Storm of Swords and onwards his actions are generally good. However, by making him rape Cersei in the tv show, this change in his character is undermined. At the very least, he is acting more like his selfish old self, which is not true to the changes that have happened to him.

    Sorry, I consider those terms far too “simple.” It is to the show’s credit imo that it refuses to stick to the clichéd fictional expectations of a “character arc.” In real life people don’t have character arcs, they have good and bad in them in a changing mix, and extreme circumstances (and Jamie’s are pretty extreme) can bring out the worst or the best unpredictably. There is nothing in Jamie’s behavior that goes against the man we’ve been presented with, it just goes against the cliché of “redemption” some viewers have been projecting onto the character. “My bloody honor is beyond repair.”-and Jamie’s awareness of that makes him interesting, and often sympathetic. But that doesn’t make him a hero-to-be.

    >Additionally from A.V. Club, Sonia Saraiya asks why the showrunners are rewriting the books into misogyny

    Except they aren’t. They-and the books-are depicting a misogynistic world, which is not the same thing. But some people always try and squeeze art into their narrow ideological worldview, and that happens on the left (where I happen to stand politically) as well as the right.

    As for the comments of the director, he has in fact made contradictory comments. But so what? Undoubtedly he wasn’t expecting this kind of uproar and didn’t give his answers a lot of thought. These are publicity interviews, not deep analysis.

  123. Ser Habakuk
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Can someone please enlighten me on how a scene in which rape would eventually have turned into consensual sex could possibly have been better? Because Jaime’s rape of Cersei would have retroactively been justified? Because he knew better than her what was good for her and therefore his forcing himself on her would have been somehow acceptable?

    That would have been terrible and made light of the subject matter. I’m glad they went with the non-apologetic scene they shot rather than with the book version.

    I also find it fascinating how everybody is almost entirely concerned about the rapist and his supposed redemption arc rather than the victim.

    Whatever was changed about the scene, Jaime’s actions were not. They are identical. Only Cersei’s eventual reaction is different. But whether or not she eventually consented or surrendered does not change anything about the fact that he forced himself on her in the first place.

    On the other hand, I’m pretty sure a scene in which Cersei would have consented – next to the corpse of her oldest son and just after having her youngest son practically abducted from her side by her father – would have been terrible for her character. The way the scene did play out, however, I think it was a pivotal moment in Cersei’s character development. Basically her whole world collapsed in just a few moments: Joffrey killed, Tywin taking control of Tommen, Tyrion supposedly being Joffrey’s murderer, and finally her brother/lover forcing himself upon her.

    Making the scene consensual would have ruined it – and Cersei’s character. Making it entirely non-consensual did not change anything about Jaime’s character.

  124. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    Valaquen,

    Exactly. This is being blown out of proportion for very specific reasons. I don’t mind the Sullied complaining that it is a change and that they shouldn’t have changed the timeline etc. because I expected that. What I do mind is the bloggers and journalists who are making it part of their ideological campaigns and making very nasty implications about Alex Graves and Nikolkaj Coster-Waldaue based on their comments. Those writers are opportunistic disgusting shills who live to tar and defame names. Their outrage articles are like mad-libs, they just throw in new names of the new “offenders” and publish.

    Yes, I agree. AV Club just posted an article that portrays Graves, via info-omission and selective quotes, as a debauched pro-rapist.

    Hopefully after next week’s episode we can resume some degree of normalcy and complain about some other part of this brilliant show.

  125. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones,

    I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. They clearly tried to make the scene look consensual and failed miserably. They tried to stay true to the books with some added ambiguity. In their minds it was not a rape. This will not come up in future episodes in my opinion as they believe rape never happened. That’s the problem. There will not be resolution for this. This will be looked at as a shock value scene in retrospect which is a shame

  126. gewa76
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    I’m looking forward to the complaints about Tyrion’s character assassination!

  127. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Well I’m sure Jaime and Cersei’s scenes next episode will address what happened. Of course it won’t be the “damage control” that people who are outraged are demanding but I imagine it will calm people down somewhat.

    Again though, why doesn’t wicnet make an “Oathkeeper” promo article. Then we could talk about something productive instead of rehashing “I don’t like that scene” in as many different ways as possible.

  128. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    Greenjones,

    I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. They clearly tried to make the scene look consensual and failed miserably. They tried to stay true to the books with some added ambiguity. In their minds it was not a rape. This will not come up in future episodes in my opinion as they believe rape never happened. That’s the problem. There will not be resolution for this. This will be looked at as a shock value scene in retrospect which is a shame

    Exactly. Unless Graves is not on the same page with the future directors/writers, the biggest problem I have is that what was depicted was supposed to be consensual. Ergo, if it was supposed to be consensual but came across as rape, most will have no idea that the intent was to depict a consensual scene and just see it as Jaime raping her as what the show was trying to show. Since the director was trying to depict it as consensual, there is no way (unless, again, Graves is at odds with other directors/writers) for it to come up as rape this season in the show and used as character development, because it wasn’t supposed to be rape in the first place. That’s, partly, why this is all so problematic. If Jaime/Cersei just pick up like it was a consensual sex scene, it’s a huge issue (and this is the likely outcome because, again, to the director, it was supposed to be consensual per his comments).

  129. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    By the way, what do people make of Kit? He is seriously impressing me this year. Jon’s really coming along and I can’t wait to see him stand up to the higher echelons at the Wall as the Wildling threat looms closer.

  130. tdraicer
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    >They clearly tried to make the scene look consensual and failed miserably

    As I’ve noted previously, the problem is that while rape has a particular definition in a legal/moral sense, the “reality” of this relationship doesn’t fit comfortably within those confines. In the book he clearly ignores her attempts to stop him before giving in: in some ways the scene in the book is a lot more anti-feminist cliche than the scene in the show (in the book her “no” does eventually morph into “yes”).

    In the show her “no” morphs into a more ambiguous “this isn’t right” (which I, and the 3 unsullied I watched with all took to mean, “not next to our dead son”). She puts up with it rather than enjoys it, unlike in the book (at least through his pov) but while I would accept his actions as rape in a modern court case, it is by no means clear either character thinks of it in those terms. In that sense the scene is quite ambiguous, and the ambiguity makes it, for me, more interesting and believable.

    But it doesn’t fit well with a black and white rape/consent dichotomy, which (again) I accept as fine for the law, but too confining for character psychology.

  131. Greenjones
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    He does seem to be putting more into his performance than before. Or maybe its just because he’s talking this season more than he’s listening and brooding.

  132. redviper
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Jared,

    Well said!! Bravo!

  133. Tatters
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    It doesnt matter what played out between Jaime and Cersei, what matters is how it ends. Lets watch this play out. Personally im intrigued.

  134. Valaquen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Greenjones:
    Valaquen,

    He does seem to be putting more into his performance than before. Or maybe its just because he’s talking this season more than he’s listening and brooding.

    He just seems to me, for the first time since he was asking Benjen to take him to the Wall, to be full of this undercurrent of frustrated energy – except this time he’s been tempered by his experiences and comes off less naive, and more… commanding? He’s got a power, anyway, that I cannot wait to see being exercised (roll on episode 9…)

  135. Mr Fixit
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    tdraicer:
    >They clearly tried to make the scene look consensual and failed miserably

    As I’ve noted previously, the problem is that while rape has a particular definition in a legal/moral sense, the “reality” of this relationship doesn’t fit comfortably within those confines. In the book he clearly ignores her attempts to stop him before giving in: in some ways the scene in the book is a lot more anti-feminist cliche than the scene in the show (in the book her “no” does eventually morph into “yes”).

    In the show her “no” morphs into a more ambiguous “this isn’t right” (which I, and the 3 unsullied I watched with all took to mean, “not next to our dead son”). She puts up with it rather than enjoys it, unlike in the book (at least through his pov) but while I would accept his actions as rape in a modern court case, it is by no means clear either character thinks of it in those terms. In that sense the scene is quite ambiguous, and the ambiguity makes it, for me, more interesting and believable.

    But it doesn’t fit well with a black and white rape/consent dichotomy, which (again) I accept as fine for the law, but too confining for character psychology.

    Well said. Applying 21st century legal standards to Jaime-Cersei twisted relationship is of no benefit if we’re looking for a nuanced understanding of the situation.

  136. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    I remember Tybee’s bewbs

  137. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Personally, at this point, I’m not worried about this season. It’s in the can. I’m worried about the stories yet to come. What will this do to the Greyjoy storyline? Dusky Woman, we hardly knew ye, if we were going to know you at all. And if there is any watering down of Victarion and Euron, we might as well press for Johnny Depp and that pirate guy from Sponge Bob Square Pants. They would do fine in their rolls.

  138. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    “It’s my cut of the scene,” he says. “The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.”

    Besides using somewhat adolescent terminology to describe the scene (probably for the reporter’s benefit), he did exactly what he wanted to. I understand plenty, ser. Especially over-reactive hypocrisy.

  139. Blind Beth
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    I have only two things to add to this discussion.

    First, I think Cercei and Jamie have been in a really messed up relationship for such a long time that neither of them have a natural sense of what’s ok anymore–and they really seem to bring out the worst in each other. I have pretty firm (and high) standards for consent in the real world, but when it comes to Jamie and Cercei I would sooner try to keep score for a an underwater knife fight in the dark than parse out what is consent/rape/coercion/kink/bad romance/just what you’d expect from a murdery twincest duo.

    Second, it’s really blowing my mind that anyone is using the words “dull” or “slow” to describe this episode. I actually felt a little shell-shocked after watching it.

  140. swordpen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    As someone who also believes that Jaime and Cersei bring out the absolute worst in one another, I’m willing to hold out until the next episode before I form an opinion – let’s see the fallout and how Cersei reacts.

    James Hibberd’s recaps are my favourite! :)

    http://tiny-tran.blogspot.ca/2014/04/crystal-clay-game-of-thrones-part-8.html

  141. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth: Second, it’s really blowing my mind that anyone is using the words “dull” or “slow” to describe this episode. I actually felt a little shell-shocked after watching it.

    Given the way in which we’ve filled up like 9 different threads discussing it, it’s clear it held people’s interest.

    JaimenotJamie: If Jaime/Cersei just pick up like it was a consensual sex scene, it’s a huge issue (and this is the likely outcome because, again, to the director, it was supposed to be consensual per his comments).

    The only comment here is this: the director is not the ultimate arbiter of the direction of the entire show, but it’s D&D. And the “Inside the Episode” shows DB really does see this as Jaime “forcing himself on her” and that “it was a very uncomfortable scene” to film. I have hope that it will be addressed in the next episode for this reason. If not, I agree the showrunners missed it and didn’t really consider the full implications here of what they were filming and how it was coming across. If it’s just Graves, it can be worked with, as he’s not in charge. (I still find his explanation friggin’ bewildering.)

  142. tdraicer
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    >I have pretty firm (and high) standards for consent in the real world, but when it comes to Jamie and Cercei I would sooner try to keep score for a an underwater knife fight in the dark than parse out what is consent/rape/coercion/kink/bad romance/just what you’d expect from a murdery twincest duo.

    Well said.

  143. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth:
    I have pretty firm (and high) standards for consent in the real world, but when it comes to Jaime and Cersei I would sooner try to keep score for an underwater knife fight in the dark than parse out what is consent/rape/coercion/kink/bad romance/just what you’d expect from a murdery twincest duo.

    Excellently stated. Btw, how many lies have you heard today, oh faceless one?

  144. Clob
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Just a heads-up if it hasn’t been mentioned: Natalie Dormer is scheduled to be the second guest on Late Night with Seth Meyers tonight.

  145. Turncloak
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    The problem is to the vast majority of the viewing public the scene came off as a rape. Despite good intentions to try to make it look otherwise. This is the problem. Intention is all well and good but they did not convey the message to the viewing public well who are not book readers and don’t have the in depth knowledge of their relationship. The rape will be forgotten as it will not be acknowledged by Jaime and Cersei. It won’t be acknowledged because it was not intended to be a rape. This is when most people will have a problem with that scene. They will see it as low grade shock value. I can bet you that Greenwald and other Unsullied reviewers will bring te hammer down in next week’s review as he discusses how D&D non-chalantly dealt with the fallout of that scene in episode 4

  146. mariamb
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Blind Beth:
    I have pretty firm (and high) standards for consent in the real world, but when it comes to Jamie and Cercei I would sooner try to keep score for a an underwater knife fight in the dark than parse out what is consent/rape/coercion/kink/bad romance/just what you’d expect from a murdery twincest duo.

    Because it can’t be repeated enough…well said.

  147. Lex
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Controversy aside,

    I still think it was an amazing episode. Surprised to hear people calling it slow. I guess it was slow in terms of action, but there was so much drama and tension in each scene. Great dialogue, and acting.

    Anyways, I do think the scene was a misstep but I think the reaction has been a little overblown. As someone said above, we still need to see what happens next week before we can really know how this will work out in the show. And I’m still very excited for Alex Grave’s future episodes. Just last week, before this misstep, people were calling him one of the best directors the series has ever had.

  148. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Sorry, Turncloak, I can’t respond to you. My prudent response gets treated like spam. This fucked-up Fansided-hosted site keeps deleting my resend attempts. The performance of this site has gone to shit.

  149. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,
    And thanks for your kind response. I’ve never given in to the “redemptive arc” philosophy with regards to the Kingslayer/Kinslayer. He is misunderstood, yes, but still he lives the curse of the kingslayer and dysfunctional throne player. To me, the statement “Why do I love such a hateful woman” was enough for me….you knew exactly what was going to transpire next, regardless of book-reader presumptions. Dysfunction perpetuates in perpetuity. Entropy prevails.

    I think we should be discussing what should happen next. Will it be tense, will it be just, will it be passive, will it have real consequences?

    Yes, I hope this is the last straw for J & C. Their relationship is broken and they have 25 years of dysfunctional memories to ponder in isolation and trepidation. I hope that their reaction to each other is distasteful and severe…and Brienne is used by Jaime to dysfunctionally/passive aggressively attack Cersei further (Oathkeeper!). And Cersei will respond in kind. However, I doubt that Jaime will end up in Rikers Island prison for his deeds. His is a mental punishment while Cersei loses her mind.

    I want to see how this plays out. Maybe I’ll be as disappointed in the “scene” as you by the end of the season. Or maybe I’ll be going “Fuck yeah!” like I have done so many times these past three years. Cheers, Turncloak!

  150. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Ser Habakuk,

    Exactly

  151. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    And thanks for your kind response. I’ve never given in to the “redemptive arc” philosophy with regards to the Kingslayer/Kinslayer. He is misunderstood, yes, but still he lives the curse of the kingslayer and dysfunctional throne player. To me, the statement “Why do I love such a hateful woman” was enough for me….you knew exactly what was going to transpire next, regardless of book-reader presumptions. Dysfunction perpetuates in perpetuity. Entropy prevails.

    I think we should be discussing what should happen next, instead of bitching about “the scene”. Will it be tense, will it be just, will it be passive, will it have real consequences?

  152. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Yes, I hope this is the last straw for J & C. Their relationship is broken and they have 25 years of dysfunctional memories to ponder in isolation and trepidation. I hope that their reaction to each other is distasteful and severe…and Brienne is used by Jaime to dysfunctionally/passive aggressively attack Cersei further (Oathkeeper!). And Cersei will respond in kind. However, I doubt that Jaime will end up in Rikers Island prison for his deeds. His is a mental punishment while Cersei loses her mind.

  153. tdraicer
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    >The problem is to the vast majority of the viewing public the scene came off as a rape.

    I don’t see much evidence the vast majority of the viewing public is giving it a lot of thought.

  154. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    This is weird. My last two posts should be deleted, please. They are repeats from the original post before them. Sorry….but thanks for posting my original response.

  155. Bran Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    I thought the episode was just fine, Sept scene and all.

  156. GRRMlin
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    While D&D’s utter disregard for portraying characters realistically or consistently is a bit disturbing, I have to say that I’m happy that they are beginning to change things a little bit.

    Don’t get me wrong, to date most major changes from the story line have been TERRIBLE. BUT, after this season the source material is also terrible, so they will HAVE to change it.

  157. KG
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:59 am | Permalink
  158. Bronn for King
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    I don’t understand why there’s such an uproar about the “rape” scene, I got the impression she was more saying no to the time and place rather than the actual act, and by the way her hand was gripping the cloth at the end there was no way she wasn’t a consenting party, and I wonder why there wasn’t such a problem when Khal Drogo raped Dany in season 1, I thought that was a much more violent scene than this one, just my thoughts.

  159. Arya's Nose
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Valaquen,

    When they auditioned Kit, they used one scene from the first book and scene from the third, apparently. They knew he had it in him to climb that particular arc and I couldn’t be happier for him.

    Oh and feck Jaime’s redemption.

  160. daroe23
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Cersei said “no.” In both the book and show. Everything after that “no” by today’s “no means no” standards was rape. In my estimation an honest read of the scene in the books should show that even if Cersei never capitulated he still would have kept going. In the book Jaime rapes her but she eventually gives in. In the show he rapes her but she shows physical signs of “consent” without verbalizing.

    I’ve been thinking about Jaime. When he saves Brienne in the show you don’t get in his head like in the books. One of his driving factors for saving her in the book was that he didn’t want this Noble being raped by “low born scum.” It’s not until after his rape of Cersei that he goes out of his way to help Pia, all of the other references in his POV are about him not doing anything while rape is committed all around him. I think it was Cersei’s bitterness after the sept that really led him into evaluating his actions.

    My problem with this whole kerfuffle is that it is rooted in personal conception and individual bias of fictional characters. Jaime especially is a monumental achievement in learning to relate to terrible people by “walking a mile in their shoes.”

  161. world_dancer
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    I think I said it all in the title. I complained when Drogo raped Dany because it wasn’t in the book and totally changed their relationship into one of Stockholm Syndrome. I will complain about the rape here because it doesn’t fit the relationship between Cersei and Jaime. And given later developments of Jaime turning away her in the books, it’s going to cause major dissonance if they follow that arc now.

    As for Theon’s situation, all of the torture scenes are new. They’re things that got left out of the books. I would totally believe Theon was raped in the behind the scenes of the book. It fits with the torture. I don’t know about him being castrated, mostly because I don’t know if that fits the plot of the book or not, since we’re not at the end. But as of this point, the state of Theon’s dick doesn’t have an impact on the story, and the impact on characterization is none. Ramsey is evil. Theon is his broken pet. It works.

  162. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    jentario,

    Thank you for these comments. They fucked up indeed, and we all have to move on. I had to bail on the site for a minute, because it has been a shitstorm (though the controversy is well deserved). I am trying to understand everybody’s perspectives here.

    I reread the chapter, and rewatched the scene. I think the biggest problem for me is that in the books, it begins with her protests and ends with her asking for it rather enthusiastically (though her protests seem to be coming more from concern over time and place… and getting caught by the septon/father/the gods). And yes, this is all Jaime’s perspective, I’m aware. I am also aware that no means no. And yes, we are dealing with an extremely dysfunctional couple here.

    ALL THEY HAD TO DO with the show, is have her eventually say “yes, yes”… and the scene would immediately be back in line with the books (timing not withstanding). They could have dubbed the audio very easily, no need to reshoot anything. So this tells me that it was a conscious choice on the part of the writers/producers (DnD on both accounts), to leave the scene feeling like a rape, and not just feeling like a demonstration of how fucked up their relationship is and how broken the both are, which is what you leave the chapter having read.

    The only rationale I can see for them deciding on this portrayal… Perhaps they wanted this to show an irreparable, definite endpoint for their relationship. Or perhaps they wanted to “Gray up” both characters while they had the chance- Cersei (grieving victim?) and Jaime (two steps forward, a few big steps back).. We’ll see how it goes from here.

    And as to everybody screaming about “book purists”, or “your favorite character has been assassinated” … my concerns are not born of this blood. I’m just very puzzled as to why they would show this scene in this way. Jaime is many things, but as many have said over the last week- he is not a rapist. It is inconsistent with his character, at this point in the story.

  163. Sister Wrister
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yes. This site is kinda sucking.

    Turncloak,

    I share your concerns. But I think they will use this to mark the definitive end for the twinscoupling, and that will be remembered.

    Blind Beth,

    You rock. Your “only two” contributions on this are most appreciated.

    Cheers!


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