The third season of The Wheel of Time wrapped up on Prime Video about a month ago. We still don't know whether Amazon and Sony are going to renew the series (although we know they should). While we wait to find out, we're still enjoying this fantastic high fantasy series!
One of the highlights of the season came in the sixth episode, "The Shadow in the Night." Elayne (Ceara Coveney) is among a group of characters who travel to the seaside city of Tanchico, hunting for the Black Ajah. No one knows that Elayne is actually the daughter-heir of Andor. In danger of having her cover blown, Elayne claims to be a bard's apprentice, and launches into a rousing rendition of a song called "The Hills of Tanchico." Watch the scene above!
We got to talk to composer Nikhil Koparkar about how this sequence came together, his work on the show in general, his love of fantasy books, and more. Watch our interview below, and read on for a transcript that's been edited for length and clarity.
DAN SELCKE for WINTER IS COMING: You worked as an assistant composer on The Wheel of Time TV show. What exactly was your role on the second and third seasons, before we get to "The Hills of Tanchico"?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: When I first joined the team, they had already wrapped season 1, and I was working on a bunch of different shows for Lorne Balfe, the lead composer. And so I'd worked on Life On Our Planet, which is a nature docu-series. I'd worked on His Dark Materials, and this was all leading up to The Wheel of Time...At that time, it was kind of the peak of the busyness on the team...I personally was working on maybe five shows at a time, and that was alongside Wheel of Time, which is it in itself a behemoth task. So it was a lot of hours, but it was a wonderful experience and a great way to kind of explore different styles and stuff.
So on The Wheel of Time, I started as an additional composer, like you mentioned. So oftentimes I would be taking Lorne's themes, rearranging them for different scenes, maybe re-contextualizing them or writing something that was completely new or a blend of the two. It really depended on the cue. So, for example...there's a specific Egwene scene in season 2, episode 5, with the Shanchan...[O]ne of the ideas I had was, 'Hey, let's take Egwene's theme and warp it and kind of make a different cue out of it because the vocal that is sung for Egwene's theme kind of almost represents this innocence, as she's thrust into the world of the Aes Sedai. So, kind of to warp and mangle that kind of changes the whole context of what she's going through in that moment. So creative decisions like that oftentimes us additional composers would be making. And Lorne had entrusted us quite a bit....[I]f we worked on a cue we were responsible for seeing it through to the finish line, so from the inception of it to the final dub stage and approving the mixes and everything.
And I'm a huge fan of the book. The way I got on the team was I'd done a custom pitch for The Wheel of Time, like my musical love letter to the 15-book series...And so, when I would send cues for approval, I would mention, 'hey, I get the feeling season 3 is probably going to tease or have elements of book 4 and 5. What if we were to tease that musically?' Kind of put an Easter egg or something for fans to discover that foreshadows a moment that's going to occur later on, assuming they follow those same plot structures. So it was fun to combine those loves.
And then, about a couple episodes in, Lorne put me in charge of the music team...It was really a full circle moment, it was a dream come true. [So] in addition to writing some of the music, [I] would be also kind of shepherding the season across the finish line. So [I] would be coordinating with the other composers on the team, delegating work, working closely with production, specifically the music editor and the editor, who are very in lock step with where the music functions in the show, and making sure it goes through the approvals, which would be of course Lorne, the music editor, the editor, production, Rafe Judkins the showrunner, and then Amazon. It's a long line of people. But I had worked on, I think, writing or arranging maybe 40 or 45 pieces of music in season 2. So it was a hefty job, but it was a dream come true, really.
WIC: And it did lead up to "The Hills of Tanchico." I'll go ahead and call it the single from the latest season of The Wheel of Time. Elayne's in a bar and she tricks a bunch of barflies into thinking she's not a narc by singing this really cool song. Talk to me about the genesis of it. What was it in the script, 'And here Elayne sings a song,' and then it gets tossed over to you and your team? Or did someone on your team come forward with it? And when exactly was it written in time? 2021, 2022, 2023? When are we?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: That's a really good question. So, this was in 2023. So it was kind of one of the final things I worked on the team for the time being at least, because I had some other projects I needed to work on my own. And so, this was kind of the beginnings of season 3. They were still working on shooting at the time. So they were going to choreograph to whatever song was written. But basically I received the wonderful script for Episode 6 that was written by Rammy Park, and she had written some lyrics for what she would imagine "The Hills of Tanchico" song to sound like, just some ideas for the lyrical structure and stuff like that. And so that was passed over to me. And then Lorne again really gave us agency to take the ball and run with it. So I feel very grateful for that. And he said, 'you know, just have at it.' And by 'have at it,' I had the morning to write it, essentially."
WIC: You just had the morning?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Just the morning. In TV, deadlines land, [and] it ends up being part for the course a lot of times, especially because they were gunning to get this thing shot within schedule. So I wrote it the morning of, and the only notes I got from production were, 'We want it to sound like a sea shanty. This is Elayne's big moment.' And it was structured in the script like, 'Elayne starts off hesitantly, and about midway through the song, she realizes the joke and she leans into the joke.' So there was a structure to it in that sense. So I tried to structure the music to it as well.
And it was interesting because as I was looking at the lyrics, I saw some of the slight double entendres, but also the deeper meanings to some of the lyrics like, 'one's not enough, three's too many, two bring a man to his knees.' And it's kind of refers to the shackled man statue that's in Tanchico City. I think Liandrin talks about it at some point in the episode. And so there's a little bit of a darker connotation. So, even musically, I try to veer into that territory rather than making it sound like a joke song, leaning away from it and trying to make it sound like, 'what would a song sound like if it was written hundreds or thousands of years ago and is passed down through generations?' It's almost like a legendary song.
The music starts off more melancholy. It has Ceara Coveney's amazing performance on just the guitar and and the vocals. And then the instruments come in. And even the chorus was meant to almost sound triumphant, [like a] timeless, legendary thing. I think of "Ring Around the Rosie" as a perfect example in history; [it] was written during the black plague and it became a children's nursery rhyme. So I was thinking in that context. It's like, 'what would happen if a song was distorted throughout time? So that was the impetus of the musical aspect of it.
And the production had basically said, 'We want Asian instruments, African instruments and for it to sound like a sea shanty; have fun, that's it. So I had the morning to work on it. It was approved within probably 48 hours and then we were recording it the next week and the actors were based in Prague so I was doing Zoom calls at ungodly hours here and working closely with the actors to work on their performances and stuff. So it was a dream come true in every respect.
WIC: I don't know why I'm surprised that it was turned around so quick. What I liked about it is that it felt authentic to the time. It felt like a kind of Chaucerian, bawdy ballad that I could believe would be sung in a bar in fake medieval times. I know that was written in the morning, so you probably didn't have that much time, but are you looking at or YouTubing any ye olde time ballads to get inspiration, or do you just not have time and just kind of go for it?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: It was a little bit of both. I did look at a couple of sea shanty songs just to kind of get a sense of the rhythmic cadences of the stuff like that. But really, I found it to be actually a great boon for the songwriting process to not have enough time to overthink. The idea of a sea shanty, and also doing justice to Robert Jordan's amazing novels, and also this is going to be a big musical moment, and let's incorporate Asian and African instrumentation...I think if I had more time to think about it, I probably would have overthought it.
So one thing I will say is, from reading the books, something I really appreciated about Robert Jordan's writing is he would have that juxtaposition. He would have a very dark moment and then he would have these kind of bawdy songs and double entendres and stuff. So it was very much in line with that, and that was one thing I really appreciated about the books...[B]ecause I love the books so much and I'd read them all, probably it was ingrained in my subconscious...it was probably easier to do that fast enough because of that extra background that I had.
WIC: You said you talked to the actors. How involved are you? Are you giving notes, like, 'Ceara, sing it more confidently'? What's your role there?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: It was very much like you described. So I was on with the writer Rammy Park and Marta Cunningham, the director. Then the actors came in one by one. Ceara came in and we were talking about how best to approach it because they also didn't have a ton of time to record their parts. So I kind of started to realize that the first few takes are usually more hesitant anyways. And structurally, we wanted Elayne to sound hesitant in the very beginning, a little bit unsure of herself. And then as she finds her confidence midway through, it kind of works alongside the song. And that's kind of what happened with Ceara's performance. She kind of got into it and we would take certain things line by line like, 'that was great. Let's try maybe this part to sound even more triumphant.' Because then we can hear the difference from where she starts and where she goes, midway through the song.
So it was that kind of detailed notes. And they just nailed it, And then Dónal Finn came in and he has all this musical theater background. He nailed it in 15 minutes, I think. His first take was amazing. And then we had the second one for safety and I think that was about it. And then Alexandre Willaume came in and he has a very raspy voice, and his voice combined with Dónal Finn's very projecting kind of sound, and then Ceara Coveney's sweeter voice; the three combined actually work really well. So it was a lot of luck I think, the happy accidents that happened throughout.
WIC: I know that you love fantasy books. I know that you have your own BookTube channel: Shelf Esteem, which is a great title, by the way.
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Oh, thank you! I have to include a pun everywhere I go.
WIC: I'm not sure if you watch as many fantasy shows, but there're a bunch of invented songs in fantasy shows over the past 10 years that have sometimes blown up. Like the "Toss a Coin to Your Witcher" song from The Witcher, which went so viral it was practically a Billboard. There are some Game of Thrones songs, like "The Rains of Castamere" and "The Bear and the Maiden Fair." Are you in conversation with any of those as you're working on "The Hills of Tanchico"? What do you think of those? Where do you think "The Hills of Tanchico" stands up?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: I love those songs, the ones that you mentioned. I remember watching them when they were kind of debuting in the episodes. So I very much followed along with that.
I think I was very surprised to see the reaction for "Hills of Tanchico," because you write something, especially that quickly, you don't really know where it's going to go. But I did write it out of the love of the books, and I was very excited because Tanchico is one of my favorite geographical locations in The Wheel of Time series. I just thought, 'it would be so cool to see that onscreen.' So I was very much doing it from being invested as a fan. And to see people walking around with "Hills of Tanchico" t-shirts now and doing singalongs at Jordan Con — they were sending me videos and stuff — and the fact that it's kind of taken on a life of its own in the last few weeks has been really heartening to see. But it's never anything I would have expected. You write it and then it's not your own anymore at some point. You kind of release it and then it either is just a cool thing you did or it takes on a life of its own. It's been a wonderfully pleasant surprise, I would say.
WIC: I'm not sure who it was — maybe you know — the guy playing "Hills of Tanchico" at JordanCon the other weekend in front of the audience. They're all singing along. I think you wrote on your Instagram that seeing this was "one of the most surreal moments of your life"?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Totally, totally.
WIC: I'm going to guess that you weren't there but you saw it afterwards, right?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Yeah, I saw it afterwards. I unfortunately couldn't go because it was such short notice. I didn't realize it was coming up. I'm going to see if I can go to the WotCon, which I think is in July. Wear my "Hills of Tanchico" t-shirt, of course.
But yeah, a bunch of fans had sent me videos of them singing along and so I did a little compilation of it. But that video you mentioned was during the opening ceremonies for JordanCon. So it was cool. And then there was another one at a dance club or something and a bunch of them were singing it. So it's just been fun. And it's like I was looking on YouTube and I see people doing guitar tutorials or piano covers of it and and stuff. As a songwriter or a composer, you put stuff out there and you don't think that necessarily anything like that would ever happen. So to see it is very surreal.
WIC: Let's talk about the Emmy campaign. So this image is floating around of Amazon putting forward the song for consideration in the Best Music and Lyrics category at the Emmys. I love the image, because it's 'consider The Wheel of time for Outstanding Drama Series, and also The Hills of Tanchico for music.' It's almost kind of fronting the song. Who put that together?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Yeah, it's incredible. So Amazon actually put that together and sent it to my PR team, which is really, really great. So I've been working with a PR team for kind of this Emmys campaign, and Amazon had kind of put it forth, so we figured, 'hey, we should really just see where this thing goes.' And it's been really lovely. I think it's interesting to see what the role that some of these songs, especially in these categories, play in a show, whether it be like a musical number or it's maybe more of an afterthought or it's heavily featured in the episode...And it's another one of those things where it probably took on a life of its own, because when I had first written it, it had originally been meant to be in a particular scene, but then it appears later in another scene in that same episode and then it ended up being [played over] the end credits of that episode. So I think they probably saw the potential in it and they wanted to heavily feature it. So yeah, it was really their brainchild to submit it on my behalf, which I'm so grateful for.
WIC: Dream scenario: they invite you to play it at the Emmys during the ceremony in September. You gonna do it?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Oh, yeah! I wouldn't even think twice. I would think about it for 0.1 seconds maybe before I said hell yes.
WIC: So season 3 is over. As someone who's involved in the show, have any inside information on season 4 you can share with us?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: I really wish I did. Honestly, I am as much in the dark as everyone else. I'm even curious to know if the actors have heard anything yet. I think Rosamund Pike was sharing the Renew WoT petition which is going around and has gathered a lot of steam, which is great to see because I'm sure that stuff does factor into any decision making. But I wish I knew more. I'm kind of just waiting with bated breath like all of you.
WIC: I watched an interview with you with Philip Chase, and I think you said something like, and I could just be misquoting here, that you'd kind of moved on from The Wheel of Time. You're doing your own stuff now. if it gets renewed, would you come back or are you doing something else these days?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: I'm totally open to coming back. It's probably a conversation I would have with Lorne and see what his availability's like, what his team is looking like and stuff like that at that time. In the meantime, I've just been kind of working on my own projects, which has been really wonderful as well. But of course, if there is a season 4, I would love to be involved. So I guess we'll just kind of see, it's one of those 'cross that bridge when it comes' things.
But in the meantime, I've been working on my own films. I'd worked on a film called Dead Whisper last year that came out in theaters I think in July. And so that was really a wonderful way of kind of extending that idea of musical world-building. So I was using Thai instruments and stuff like that. Just trying to find new sounds and creative choices to make. So yeah, it's been really wonderful.
WIC: I know you released singles too. I put on a bunch of your music last night and I was singing "My Year" to myself later in the night.
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Oh, really? Oh, thank you.
WIC: Do you have any more plans for those?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going to release a single in May, but then with this "Hills of Tanchico" stuff and then everything Emmy-related, I figured I'll kind of hold off until July. So I'll have one coming out in July, one in probably August, one in September. So I have a bunch actually recorded and kind of ready to go, with the intention of releasing an EP this year, in November probably now. It's kind of a series of three EPs actually that are interconnected with musical themes and interludes and then also kind of the lyrical messaging, I guess you could say.
It's funny how life works, I think. I started off as a songwriter and then I switched to composing in 2016, 2017. I was doing almost exclusively composing. And there was an inner desire to kind of marry the two. It's like, what would songs with more of a symphonic edge sound like? Then I got this opportunity to work on The Wheel of Time and combine the two. And so it's just funny how the universe works sometimes. It's been really great to kind of have one foot in one and the other foot in the other.
WIC: We're winding down, but I'm just curious personally: you're working on The Wheel of Time, you're doing your own songs, you're putting together an EP, you also have your BookTube channel...Are you just a project person? Are you just happiest when you're elbow deep into work?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: I just love giving myself homework assignments, I think. I love to try different things and see how I can marry them together. The whole idea of how I even got on The Wheel of Time show was I realized I love reading and I love music, and I thought to myself, 'what would it be like to combine two seemingly disparate things into one cohesive whole?' And that really is what made me read The Wheel of Time series and then write a musical love letter to it, which eventually got me hired on the show.
So it kind of made me realize I want to try these different things. I'm interested in a variety of different things and sometimes you can find ways to bring them together. So for example with Philip Chase — wonderful guy and wonderful author who wrote the Edan trilogy — and he commissioned me to write an official main theme for his broken binding release of that trilogy. So I got to work very well closely with him and I'm speaking to a couple of authors that I've met through BookTube now. And so, I find that things start to connect when you just put your passion in things, and I guess I'm just passionate about a variety of things, which makes for a busy lifestyle, but it makes me feel alive. So, it's a lot of fun.
WIC: I'm glad you feel alive. Go check Nikhil out! Anything else you want to let people know to look out for? Where to find anything? Book recommendations?
NIKHIL KOPARKAR: Yeah, you can find me on all socials at Nikhil K Music, and of course my BookTube channel is Shelf Esteem, like Dan mentioned. If you haven't gotten a chance to check out "The Hills of Tanchico" yet, you'll check it out and hear the spirit of the books and the spirit by which it was created. So yeah, deeply appreciative of you having me on, Dan.
WIC: Thank you to future Emmy winner, Nikhil Koparkar.
Thanks so much to Nikhil Koparkar for speaking with us! And fingers crossed that we'll get good news about The Wheel of Time season 4 (and beyond) soon.
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