Filming of Game of Thrones‘ second season in Northern Ireland is in its final weeks. We’ve heard that filming will wrap on November 18th. Afterwards, filming will continue in Iceland until about mid-December.
Since our last update, we have received some inside info as to what they have been filming. We had reports and pictures of filming near Audley’s Castle (above), which we now know to be scenes of Robb’s camp. We also knew that they had returned to Larrybane quarry to film scenes of Renly’s camp, however we weren’t sure if it was reshoots or scenes that they weren’t able to shoot the first time because of the hurricane. Now we can confirm that they were, in fact, reshooting scenes, as the previous footage was deemed unusable due to the weather conditions.
We also received some interesting reports of what exactly these scenes entailed, which, for spoiler reasons, we will reveal after the break…
First, let’s talk about Renly’s camp… as we know that site is going to be where the melee is held in which Brienne is first introduced and named to the Rainbow Guard. But it is also where Stannis will meet with Renly and, ultimately, where Renly will be killed. According to reports from the set, Stannis will arrive via ship off the coast of the camp site (ships to be added later digitally, of course). And then in a later scene, with (ironically enough) wind effects added as part of a coming storm, Renly will be killed in his tent. Also, Littlefinger, of all people, will be at Renly’s camp. He has a scene where he walks through the camp and hears talk of panic and desertion and then reportedly has a scene with Margaery. It is unclear from the report if this is before or after Renly’s death. Very interesting.
Also “very interesting” are the goings-on in Robb’s camp. As we stated above, these were filmed near Audley’s Castle, which was the site of the Twins in season one, although it doesn’t appear that it will be used for the Twins this time around. The scenes that were filmed last week include Jaime Lannister being captured and brought back into camp where Catelyn orders that he not be killed, but taken away to be chained and gagged. There are also scenes with Robb and Oona Chaplin’s character, “Jeyne”, and another with Robb and Catelyn. And then there was this exchange between Catelyn and Rickard Karstark:
RICKARD: And where is our King?
CATELYN: You know very well he’s gone to The Crag to negotiate a surrender.
RICKARD: He’s gone to The Crag, aye, but not to negotiate. He’s got that foreign bitch with him!
CATELYN: How dare you!
Curiouser and curiouser!
Winter Is Coming: All sorts of things to discuss here. Stannis showing up and meeting with Renly at the site of the tourney is a sensible streamlining of the story. I am assuming that this camp will be the one outside of Storm’s End and Bitterbridge, as a location, has been written out.
And then Littelfinger in Renly’s camp? Having words with Margaery? I guess this is David and Dan’s way of setting up Littlefinger’s eventual deal with the Tyrells.
And lastly, Robb’s storyline sounds like it has been altered quite a bit. It looks like we will get to see Jaime’s attempted escape, so that is cool. But the Stark/Karstark rift will be due to Robb’s lovelife now? And we still have no idea who the heck Oona Chaplin is playing although it clearly isn’t Jeyne Westerling. But then the Westerling’s castle, The Crag, is still a part of the story. So how is this all going to fit together?
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96 Comments
NOTE: I’m not putting SPOILER tags on anything because this entire post is about SPOILERS
One would assume that Littlefinger is with Margaery in a later episode (7 or 8) after Renly has met the shadow. Makes sense to show it: (gives both actors more “on camera” work)
Robb’s story: [Gulp] Uh-oh. But it could be just expanding what the books establish. Lets assume Jeyne was sent to seduce the Young Wolf on the battlefield. Part of her “cover” is to act as an woman from Across the Narrow Sea. Then he takes her to the Crag where he discovers she’s actually a daughter of the Westerling lord. They find out about Bran & Rickon… story continues.
Karstark may not like Jeyne, then finds out about the Kingslayer, etc.
AKA: Neither story may have changed that much.
But there are strange hints that Robb’s story could be going off the rails.
Honest JerkQuote Reply
I am smelling a massive story change concerning Robb and “Jeyne”…. don’t like…
by the way, am I first?
###edit: Nope, I’m not!
G_LeeQuote Reply
I guess it makes sense for Karstarks resentment to come from another source, after all the viewers of the show were never told about his sons being killed in the Whispering Wood. And it makes it more personal too, since book Karstark didn’t have a quarrel with Robb as such, he just defied him by taking his revenge on Lannister captives, which also didn’t appear in the show.
As to Littlefinger at Renlys camp, well, he was sent there to negotiate. Admittedly, it was later in the books (after Renlys death), but it doesn’t really change much. Interesting news overall!
AldarisQuote Reply
I am sure that George has told D&D the marks each character has to hit to maintain plot arcs and overall story completion. Any meat or fat D&D want to trim or add to the bones provided by George will be OK. They do TV for a living…
TenesmusQuote Reply
I must admit now that I have expected to hear about Renly beeing killed at the same set of the melee
Because we had not heard a word of Storms land set.
That is not surprise at all for me .
Robb s part of story - huh! Do not know what to think about it…wait n see, I suppose.
The RabbitQuote Reply
This is quite exciting :)
The Renly and Stannis-stuff seems very reasonable. As for “Jeyne” I think it’ll be fun to watch the series and see something I’m not suspecting.
Johan SporreQuote Reply
Aldaris,
Agreed. Viewers probably wouldn’t make the connection that Jaime killed Karstark’s sons, since it wasn’t mentioned last season.
Interesting changes. I knew they’d want to get LF more time, so that’s not too surprising. I must admit though, this whole thing with “Jeyne” kind of throws me off. Why not just call her “Jeyne Westerling” and keep to the story? Don’t really see the point.
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
Ooh, I love the idea of seeing Littlefinger conspiring with the Tyrells.
SGQuote Reply
Do i trust them about the Robb story? Yes.
Am i’m still scared? hell yeah.
João AmaralQuote Reply
RE: “And we still have no idea who the heck Oona Chaplin is playing although it clearly isn’t Jeyne Westerling.”
Just curious, why are we saying this? How do we know that Chaplin is not Westerling?
Howland ReedQuote Reply
This is all SPOILERS
Remember everybody, the Westerlings have foreign blood. Her mother is a Spicer or something, jumped up merchants from across the Narrow Sea given nobility and married into an old and poor family. The foreign bitch part may be no more than that
GratefulwhoQuote Reply
LOL drawing conclusions from a few line of text.
As far as Jayne goes it could just be that no one knows that she’s a Westerling (maybe she ran away whatever)… Robb falls for her, she intrusts him with her secret so hes taking her back home (so she can be safe)… There’s X number of scenarios as to why her surname isn’t given.
Oi!Quote Reply
João Amaral,
I am with you on this 100%
Tessa LeonieQuote Reply
(First time poster – lurker since the Torrhen Stark bent the knee. Hi!)
My overall feeling after reading all this is excitement, but even though I keep hoping the best, I can’t help myself from fearing the worst concerning the Robb/Jeyne arc. However, I’m happy to see some elaborations concerning their story, especially considering how it ultimately leads to Robb’s downfall , as long as it doesn’t steal (too many) minutes of screen time from other events I’d rather like to see.
As for now, I’m going to assume it will be really good until the opposite has been proved. :)
As for not naming her “Jeyne Westerling”, I’m of the same mind as some of the posters above. The specifics can be almost anything, but I believe this is mostly to keep potential spoiler from tv-show only audience.
FrostylvaQuote Reply
I was interested to see what they would do with Littlefinger, considering he has such a small part from the reader’s point of view in the books (obviously his role in the story itself is very prominent). You can’t really just cast aside an actor like Aidan Gillen for a season or two, he’s too good, so I’m actually glad to see that they are somehow incorporating more scenes for him in the show.
TJ FlynnQuote Reply
I really do not know how to feel about this Jeyne plotline. Robb was always one of my least favourite characters, and I like him even less in the series than the books, where I mostly just didn’t care what he did. Giving all this screentime to something so ALTERED could either work — make him better — or completely ruin this series for me. We’ll see.
RoseQuote Reply
way off topic but someone built winterfell in minecraft lol thought I’d share
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tscbG9f4MLo&feature=related
DawnWielderQuote Reply
So, what do you think:
LF is sent to Renly by Tyrion?
The RabbitQuote Reply
I really, really hope Karstark’s story isn’t changed. I think I care more about that than potential changes with Jeyne. Have Jaime kill his sons while escaping, or even simply start the series with Karstark mourning them.
It matters because we can sympathise with both sides. Karstark is grieving, probably not thinking entirely straight, and kills some enemy men both as revenge, and because it proves to the Lannisters that the Starks will execute prisoners (making Jaime seem in much more danger). He thinks Robb is being soft, and cares more for the safety of the prisoners than the feelings of his bannermen.
Robb of course has good reason for keeping the prisoners alive- they can be traded, and if he lets everyone who lost a relative in the battle execute a Lannister, they’ll run out pretty fast, leaving them with nothing to bring to negotiations. He can either refuse to punish Karstark, keep him on side but risk being seen as soft by all the others, and more disobedience if they want to go against his orders. Or he can kill Karstark and make it clear he won’t tolerate rebellion, and that prisoners must be kept alive, but risk losing the support of a portion of his army.
That storyline is important to Robb’s character development as well as the plot as a whole, Karstarks becoming somewhat important later on.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Well, for Robbs story, the Karstarks can still be getting angry due to Jaimie killing his sons on the escape, instead of in the whispering woods. the viewers would’ve already forgotten that if it had happened in season 1, so why not do it in season 2? Another escape try for Jaimie also gives him story arcs for an episode or two…
As for Karstarks sons, we don’t even need to see one or two actors with a name playing them, just have him running to the bodys and screaming “my sons”. So even if the foreign bitch part is there, that doesn’t mean that they changed Karstarks reasons. He may then even kill the Alton Lannister character instead to simplify. Jaime and Briennes Travels work without him as well
MichaelQuote Reply
“Foreign bitch” needn’t necessarily mean outside the 7 kingdoms. The northmen always speak of southrons as somewhat foreign, and the changed political situation would legitimize that foreignness.
DDQuote Reply
Can I do a little announcement here?
Hi Game of Thrones fans!
I participed on a contest from Game of Thrones Iron Throne, with a cosplay of Sansa Stark. And now I need your votes to win the trip to Ireland.
http://apps.facebook.com/passatempos-fnac-pt/a-guerra-dos-tronos/participacoes
1- Look for my name “Carolina Ferreira”
2 – Click on the “like” button
And it’s done!
I would thank you from the bottom of my heart if you did me this favor.
Thank you also WiC.
CarolinaQuote Reply
Robb’s story was pretty much stinky wet cardboard. Anything they can do to spice it up is A-OK with me, so long as all the results shake out in the same way.
KGQuote Reply
Shinyteapot,
I totally hear what you’re saying, but…
I’m guessing the TV producers don’t want us to sympathize with both sides. They want us to sympathize with Robb, i.e. they’ve spent all this time building him up, and most viewers won’t even know who Karstark is, let alone care about him. So, if they turn Karstark into an antagonist of some sort, and make his beef with Robb personal, it won’t take away from Robb’s character.
I, for one, was pissed when he offed Karstark. I understood his reasoning, as you explained quite well, but it came right after his mother received no punishment whatsoever for releasing Jaime, i.e. the most important captive Robb was ever likely to get. When he let his mother off without so much as a slap on the wrist, and then lopped off Karstark’s head for essentially having sacrificed his sons for nothing, I thought Robb was a joke. It was as if the whole world centered around him and his family; men were fighting and dying for the honor of the Starks, and he still plays favorites. He should’ve punished Catelyn in some way (I’m not saying lop her head off, but do something) to prove to his men that their sacrifices do matter to him. If Robb becomes THAT guy on the show, a lot of his fangirls might jump ship…
As readers do we care about that? No. As HBO producers who have a show to sell, do we care about that? Hell yes.
Just saying… It makes Robb’s character more complex, but is that what HBO wants? We really have such a short time with Robb’s character anyway, they might not want to add too many layers to a guy they’re going to kill off in season 3. Plus, if Robb remains an unquestioned hero, it might give the Red Wedding all that much more punch… especially if Karstark fell out with Robb over his choice in brides.
I hope you’re right though. And I agree with others who have suggested Alton Lannister be turned into Karstark’s fall guy.
Varamyr FourskinsQuote Reply
I am not surprised that LF appears in unexpected places. I think D&D, probably, know something more about the importance of LF in ASoIaF (or maybe they´ll keep using him to expose some parts of the plot, as they did before). Throughout season 1 I had the impression that LF is a more important character on the show of what can be expected (later maybe) on the books. He´s a politician after all or an ubiquitous prostitute like Ross or vice versa.
andreaQuote Reply
Point of note, as to the “foreign bitch”comment. If I remember correctly Jayne Westerling is about 2 generations removed from foreign merchant bloodlines, and dirt like that on even a minor noble house would be known by all, and be particularly offencive to a northman and a direct decendant of the kings of the north or first men of westeros
DarkskyeQuote Reply
I tend to agree with you Michael. Your senario sounds very plausable.
As to the “foreign bitch”, I am curious as to why she is a “bitch” in Karstarks eyes. Is it simply that she is foreign and close to the king in the north ? In the mind of an old Westerosi northman inraged by grief it is possible. Or has this woman earned the title of “bitch” by some deed or deeds that were unpopular with certain people?
From a previous post it is known that Oonas character called herself “Nissa” from Volantis, for me this is very interesting. Given who the original Nissa from Volantis was this opens up a multitude of possibilities for Oonas character. If of course the whole “Nissa” thing is not just an alias used by Jeyne to hide her real identity when she first meets Robb.
Personally I would like to see Oona as a new Nissa instead of Jeyne Doe. It opens up a potentially exciting and possibly supernatural new character. Sure it different from the book but I know what happens in the books and would like to see some stuff on the show that will be a surprise. For sure Robbs story will still bring him to the RW, just by a different route.
Two FeathersQuote Reply
I don’t see anything alarming about the reports. Sounds like they’re streamlining and creating interesting interactions.
As for Robb- his storyline was nonexistent in the book- this one sounds much better. She IS Jeyne Westerling, just a more colorful one.
Steve The PirateQuote Reply
Yes, so the statement that Oona “clearly isn’t playing Jeyne Westerling” is wrong. “He’s gone to The Crag, aye, but not to negotiate. He’s got that foreign bitch with him!” That seems to imply that there’s something tying the “foreign bitch” to the Crag.
AhorwittQuote Reply
Two Feathers,
I completely forgot the mention of Nissa.
So, her identity as Jeyne Westerling would not be so surprising in the end.
Pure speculation: She was sent by her family to seduce Robb (as a part of well-known plot) hiding her true identity.
Probably, Robb went to the Crage to make a proposal.
Everything above leads for sure to the RW.
We only need Edmure now!
The RabbitQuote Reply
Foreign Bitch means ‘woman with foreign accent’ in Westeros-land. Oona is clearly playing the role of Jeyne, a fierce anti-government activist with a heart of gold and indeterminate accent to whom Robbard Stark gives his virgin heart. My theory is that she’s Shae’s evil twin sister, but we shan’t see scarce a nip from that foreign bitch. And then she’ll be like, I’m a sand snake, tralala.
The interesting part is *really* how dare Mister Carkastark? Well, I assume he’s drunk for one thing, on the mead. I assume all men are drunk all the time on this show. That is how they dare. Catelyn sure looks like she needs a drink in season 1. Just sayin’.
Now I read these books a while ago so I don’t remember them perfect. I liked them. I hope the show also has more food in it like in the books, and mead, in season 2.
Epic ThisQuote Reply
Perhaps they have decided to make Jeyne a random femme fatal in order to edit out the entire Westerling storyline. He could go to the Crag not to negotiate with her family but to elope. They may have decided to make her foreign just to explain Ms. Chaplin’s accent, like they did with Shae. Still no explanation for Jamie and Tyrion’s accents.
RichterQuote Reply
Giving more scenes for Littlefinger isn’t surprising since Aiden Gillen is one of the more well known actors in the cast especially to HBP viewers so it wouldn’t really fit to not have him on screen as much. This is probably the same reason why he got The Hounds lines at the tourney last season.
Ingemar SvenssonQuote Reply
Off-Topic:
I don’t know if that’s a piece of news but I found a list of (some?) Special Features on the BR of the first season of GOT:
Link
AbyssQuote Reply
Richter,
Oona Chaplin has a British accent. Any foreign accent they’re having her do as Jeyne is a put-on. I think she’s clearly Jeyne Westerling, given the mention of the Crag and the fact that Jeyne Westerling is canonically of mixed ethnicity in the novels, even if this wasn’t made into a big plot point in the books. Not sure why WiC thinks otherwise.
eleusisQuote Reply
You’re right. I forgot about the Westerlings foreign heritage in the books. I guess at this point the evidence points to Oona being Jeyne but for some reason pretending to be a Voltene named Nissa. Either way, I’m interested to see where David & Dan are going with this. :)
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
I can’t wait for the full-scale epic battle!! The chain, the fire, the savior Pod!! Omg this season is going to be so amazing, people who have watched the first season and not read the books are in for a great treat! :D
NP: Parnassian Cacoepy – Blood Red Throne
Dave BrownellQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
My guess is that Jeyne goes out to help on the front (there’ve been reports that the “Lissa”/”Nissa”/whatever character is ostensibly a nurse) and uses a false identity to avoid being taken hostage, given that her father is a Lord.
eleusisQuote Reply
Yeah when I heard the foreign bitch bit that didn’t surprise me at all because if you remember in A Feast For Crows, Cersei keeps talking about Maggy the Frog who is was Myrish ? or something and had dark skin. And when the backstory of the Westerlings is revealed the tie between Maggy the Frog being either a Westerling or a Spicer is revealed – either way, I think Jeyne is a descendent of Maggy the Frog, thus the foreign look.
Forgot to add spoilers, someone edit
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
Yup, you got it. Maggy the Frog was Volantene and is Jeyne’s great-grandmother. Sibell, Jeyne’s mother, is probably half-Volantene, so Jeyne is about a quarter.
eleusisQuote Reply
So if Littlefinger is in the camp with Catelyn, and Stannis doesn’t that throw up a huge red flag to the Starks, and Baratheons? I thought his “mission” was to be covert about winning the Tyrells over to Joff? I could be jumping to conculsions but something doesn’t sit right with me on that one. The Rob Stark stuff I can live with. As long as we get to the same conclusion of that thread, I’m OK with a little fudging of the story. I’m actually looking forward to it.
dizzy_34Quote Reply
Yeah so David and Dan/Bryan are on the money, everyone else just has a bad memory :P
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
Yet, the season ended without realizing how responsible she is for (some) of the shit that happen to her family. Instead she has the courage to say to a man who has lost two sons: “how dare you?” . Augh… she needs so much more than a few good drinks! You laugh all you want (lucky you), because the truth is that, crazy as it may seem, I can not be indifferent towards this character, she brings out my worst instincts.
andreaQuote Reply
dizzy_34,
If Stannis or Catelyn never see Littlefinger in Renly’s camp then I’d say it’s covert enough. Littlefinger as a character is pretty good at that kind of stuff, hopefully they’ll be able to give us some good scenes out of that while still remaining true to the books in the sense that it is a secret. If not well meh, there are bigger :<'s such as no Tullys or Reeds.
Jordan HealeyQuote Reply
andrea,
I think blaming Catelyn for the shit that befell the Stark family in AGOT is pretty dense, given Ned’s absolutely brilliant plan to confront Cersei with an ultimatum before getting his daughters the hell out of King’s Landing. Come on. Cat haters are always pulling this card, and it’s a tired one.
eleusisQuote Reply
eleusis,
maybe if you read my comment again you’ll see that I wrote the word “some”. Anyway, for a writer should be a compliment that a reader could have such strong feelings towards a character. But I´m not a Cat hater… I don´t even know what´s that, makes me laugh a little.
I also have strong feelings towards Richard III. He deserves it, don´t you think?
andreaQuote Reply
I am not a Catelyn hater either but I think it is important to remember that it is Catelyn herself who feels she is in some way to blame for all of the misfortune brought to her family (in the books that is) and, as I have said on other threads on this site, I really question the producers choosing to do such an about face with this character because it is her remorse that very much motivates many of her actions as the story continues. Do I think this ruins her story line on the show? No, of course not, but I think she is a far more interesting character on the page.
KQuote Reply
If Littlefinger is in Renly’s camp the same time Catelyn is, it could be really interesting to see the two characters interact again.
StarkgirlQuote Reply
right, I didn´t remember that, but is still too early for her on the show. Sure she will feel terribly sorry later on. Don´t forget that it is in season 2 and 3 where some of her children are allegedly killed. Would not be “natural” that she doesn´t feel remorse after that (on the show). She will. I´ll be waiting.
andreaQuote Reply
I’m getting a major “no feeling” from all the Jeyne stuff so far.
LexQuote Reply
Some good points are made here…
but don’t you guys think that showing Littlefinger negotiating with the Tyrells will take the entire surprise from the BotB? I mean that was such a gamechanger…
G_LeeQuote Reply
G_Lee,
Perhaps at first they will show us LF getting a huge “NAY” from the Tyrells. Only after Renly’s death will he be able to persuade them(“the Starks killed your king, blah, blah, blah…”).
PepiQuote Reply
KG,
What he said :P
Damryn of DorneQuote Reply
Let’s not read too much into the “foreign bitch” line. It doesn’t indicate a massive change in the story. My guess it is used to show how Robb is losing respect in some quarters of the Northern army. Karstark is grieving for his lost sons, added to that he knows that (by the time of the scene outlined above) Robb has reneged on his marriage pact with the Freys, so things look to be falling apart for the Northmen. Add it together and Karstak is probably just lashing out. I don’t see any indication of a big change to the story, just perhaps more “screentime” than Robb got in the book.
On another note, surely there’s enough footage now for a decent trailer
HouseLarkQuote Reply
Dont forget that LF has a big part to play in the story. Mayhaps GRRM has told D&D some pieces of the plot for the show to give more screen time to LF.
I also really hope they alter the story of rob. In the books we are often kept in the dark about his character. If D&D can make the audiance love Rob, the more dramatic the RW will be. That is one of my favorite piece in the books, especially the ary/hound angle added to that
kindly manQuote Reply
I mean the Jeyne stuff is an interesting move and change. I’m not going to dwell upon it too much as I might get annoyed with it so I am going to wait to see how it is shown and played out.
As to the littlefinger in camp, it was going to happen we saw a glimpse as to what he was like in series one and we shall see more in this one and everything the book readers know the viewers will slowly be let onto. That one is a good move I think and I like
Jeyne and Robb is a wait and see
SarahQuote Reply
Another interesting point- it seems Catelyn has gone to the Westerlands with Robb. I suppose she had to since we won’t see Riverrun this year, but that’s another change to the Jeyne story- in the books, it’s very notable that Robb’s romance and marriage with Jeyne happen when his mother isn’t around to remind him about the Freys and talk some sense into him. If Catelyn and Robb are in the same place when the news about Bran and Rickon arrive, that changes things for both characters, and makes their next actions less belivable.
ShinyteapotQuote Reply
Ah, good point.
The books and show are plot driven, but the characters read a simple script from Hamlet’s own simple play. Just as Catelyn’s vow “we will kill them all”, methinks the lady doth protest too much.
In the defence of Kate Lynn season 1 arresting Little Tyrant Lannister, one problem is that her sister Lisa is criminally insane (because in Westeros, all moms are at least teetering on the brink of sanity).
Did Kate Lynn know about her sister’s mental state? Would she have placed her prisoner Tyrant, the trust and safety of her immediate family, into the hands of an insane wet nurse?
In Kate Lynn’s defence, she couldn’t have known that plot-driven J’aime attacks Mr Stark, his Lordyness, with the intention to kill, after hearing about his arrested brother. Little Tyrant Lannister arrested should have been a stalemate at least for a few minutes. J’aime should have thought about the safety of his brother-in-custody as a consequence of his actions.
Even if his Mr Daddy Lannister ordered the death of Mr Daddy Stark, J’aime could have said no. And never mind trying to be a little more subtle about killing Mr Stark.
How old is J’aime anyway? Why does he act like a 10 year old in front of his father? It’s vaguely interesting to think of all the sons of SoIaF have terrible relationships with their fathers and mothers.
I still think Kate Lynn needs a stiff one–a drink. And I am sorry for her the plot will lead her to such un-ness without at least getting that drink. People hate Cat because they believe deep inside that she’s supposed to be as perfect a mom as Eddard Stark is a dad. I’m so excited about season 2!
Epic ThisQuote Reply
Do any of you ever get the feeling that HBO is tossing us these morsels just to see us grind our teeth and pull our hair and rack our brains while they a have a giggle?
HirondelleQuote Reply
I’ve agreed with you before and I’ll do it again. :o)
HirondelleQuote Reply
Jordan Healey,
Catelyn will see him, he’s in love with her so he will seek her out…and lie to her.
AngelaQuote Reply
Hirondelle,
That would not surprise me one iota
SarahQuote Reply
Lex,
Jeyne is magical, she’s a healer and a seer.
AngelaQuote Reply
and younger siblings live in the shadow of his older brothers.
My father was a very kind man so I could not answer that question, but you know… there are scary fathers out there. You just need to find one and have the misfortune of being raised by him, then you`ll understand.
Maybe Catelyn was just looking for excuses to leave home for a few days, pay a visit to her sister and drink some margaritas with crazy Lisa. But that wouldn`t be an interesting plot I guess.
thou art a liar methinks.
andreaQuote Reply
The fact that the LF scene involves “panic and desertion” points pretty strongly toward it being post-Renly death, which means it might not be a change at all. Why would there be panic and desertion in Renly’s enormous host prior to his death? In the book, LF rides to Bitterbridge to meet the Tyrells and propose the Joff/Margarey wedding immediately after the Small Council learns of Renly’s death, so he would still be meeting with them in “Renly’s camp”. As far as the production goes, it makes sense to film these scenes when they have the “Renly’s camp” set already constructed, rather than taking the time and expense of moving it to a different location. All they need to do is throw in some different establishing shots to make it seem like somewhere else (i.e. Bitterbridge or wherever).
the goatQuote Reply
I had some troubles trying to understand who Kate Lynn was, but it’s my new favorite nickname now, even better than King Bob :D
Elena AmiciQuote Reply
Damryn of Dorne,
“She” :) but ty for agreeing lol
KGQuote Reply
andrea,
How dare he … what? Murder two prisoners of war, two hostages, while in possession of all his mental faculties? Is that what Catelyn ever did? Murder two people as an eye for an eye for the death of children who chose to be professional soldiers, thereby taking on the risk that they die in service of their king? Is Catelyn supposed to feel hypocritical for being aghast at Karstark’s murder of two prisoners of war, neither of whom actually killed his sons, while being of sound mind and body?
This fandom seriously never changes.
ayfkmQuote Reply
ayfkm, you kind of lost me with the rest of your post, but the “How dare you!” from Catelyn was in response to Karstark insulting Robb.
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Winter Is Coming,
Yes, I understood that. The gist was that Catelyn has some gall to say “How dare you” to Rickard Karstark at all, yes? The implication is she ought to be showing more humility or moderation of her indignation? I don’t see how either a racist slur (which is what Karstark’s comment regarding this “foreign bitch” is) or his actions with the hostages are in any way comparable to anything Catelyn did. If the war was partly her fault, and even when we throw in her desire to accept Robert’s offer, which was in the book but not in the show, she never morally transgressed (until she loses her mind) and her amount of legal transgression is debatable. So as far as I can see, she has every right and righteousness to call Karstark out for insulting Jeyne merely on the basis of her foreignness.
Unless racism is somehow a new value we champion because Cat Sux.
And if everyone who had a part in starting the war or endangering their family had to show contrition before they were allowed to say “courageous” things, I dearly hope we all expect Jaime Lannister to say how sorry he is for tossing Bran out the window which set in motion the Starks’ actions before he continues snarking his way through the — oh wait, but it’s okay for Jaime because we love him for his galling “courage”. My bad.
ayfkmQuote Reply
ayfkm, oh ok, from your previous post it looked like you thought she was saying it because he decided to kill the hostages.
I have no stance in this debate regarding Catelyn. So I will now respectfully bow out. :)
Winter Is ComingQuote Reply
Yes, in Westeros especially! There’s Mr Greyjoy. Even Fat Sam’s dad, really. And then there’s Tywin (I just think he’s strict especially to his lil bastard). And King Bob, the shameless slob. And even “Uncle” J’aime who doesn’t acknowledge his spawn. A definite little shout out to M. Craster! Gosh, Brienne’s dad was pretty square, huh? Not sure who Lyssa’s son’s father is but I’d call that family health an epic fail.
On the other hand… The Onion Knight’s kids are very bland. When they die i’m like.. so? And Robb is vanilla mostly. So when he died, I say… “nice”. At least Jon is a bastard with a cool dad. He gets all the props. The other is a cripple and the other just evaporates.
About J’aime, here it comes: He’s a grown man. He has put his life on the line many times. He is his dad’s favorite (not much choice there). But also he loves his little brother, no? How can he love his sweet sister and not his sweet brother who is so much funnier and less evil? But also, isn’t Jaime supposed to be intelligent, as in sparring wits with Jon in Winterfell?
How can a man like J’aime not at least say something to his father? Could J’aime show a tiny bit of spine against ol’ greyhairs? Must he stand there mouth agape while his father molests a dead deer carcass? Is that a non-issue? Yes it is, cos we plot-driven. That’s how we roll.
But I was kind of picturing Daddy Lannister a little friendlier towards Cerise and J’aime. In a disgustingly privileged life type of way. More fake smiles, clenching of jaw, posh snobbery, caviar dreams, sinister wealthy people, that sort of thing. Who knew Westeros is the land of blue collars? (Except Littlefinger, who must be Dutch). The coldness from Daddy Lannister I thought was reserved for Little Tyrant most of all.
But back on topic: To whoever said “foreign bitch” is racist, you are my new hero.
Epic ThisQuote Reply
ayfkm,
Right, you have your point. There are many other characters responsible for the things that happened. I already know. Of course. I was just talking about Catelyn. Can I? Other characters mistakes not impress me that much, I´m interested in hers. Is a personal issue if you want. Occasionally I have strong feelings about certain characters in this and other books. Is that okay? I´m impartial yes but I prefered to call it a human thing (problem, issue) rather than a matter of fanatism. There is nothing or no one to defend here.
andreaQuote Reply
It does seem a bit unfair/hypocritical that there are so many Cat haters out there. And in direct comparison look at Jaime Lannister, who has commited all manner of horrible deeds, yet people love him.
I’m neither of fan of Cat or jaime. However, I do like Jaime now that his moral compass has been re-calibrated so to speak.
SlizabethQuote Reply
yes, it seems. Plot vs Character, they say. Aristóteles said that, but you know it already.The worst part, for Jaime, is that he will never have the opportunity to take revenge. That sucks. But yes, he’s a grown man. Although not that much in the books. He´s witty… but intelligent? I don´t know. He´s handsome. Some would say it is enough.
John Arryn. An absent parent apparently.
what a collection you made! Craster! I forgot about him.
andreaQuote Reply
Hirondelle,
Thanks!
kQuote Reply
Epic This,
In the point of Jaime and his children (and him being a bad father), I really think that’s an issue with many different factors. He mentions that he tried to hold Joff when he was born, but Cercei said it would be too suspicious. I think that Jaime did with the kids what he did with Aerys and what he later tells Tommen to do; he went “away inside”, and taught himself how not to feel, in order to preserve himself from the pain of not having the chance to love and acknowledge his children. I have a problem with someone saying Jaime is a bad father, simply because he never really had the chance to be their father.
About Jaime and his father, Tywin is an intimidating man. The Lannisters are a tight knit group, and even through that they all seem to have it out for each other, with their own schemes. Jaime’s really the only one who cares about them all and in a way protects them all. But you see, Jaime defied his father when he took the white cloak, and, well… NO ONE defies Tywin Lannister. No one, like, ever. So that’s what he’s saying in that scene – he’s saying Jaime must be the man he was meant to be RIGHT NOW, in which he means the man that Tywin wants him to be. He’s saying “don’t fuck up, m’boy!” And what else do you say to your father after that besides “yes daddy!”?
Jaime serves, that’s what he does. He lives in the shadow of his father, he will never be like his father. And good thing too – Tywin is one hell of a Lord, but he’s always been a cunt. ;)
The InstrumentalistQuote Reply
My block button has disappeared, so please be wary of spoilers.
andrea,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have never loved Cat. I can never love Cat. She convinced Ned to go into the lion’s den, she kidnapped Tyrion when he was innocent – putting this war in full throttle – and is now getting Brienne and Jaime into deep shit for no reason. Yes, he pushed Bran out the window, but she’s charging him for Robb’s death which he had no hand in whatsoever…hand…get it? Because he was losing his hand at the time? Nevermind.
My point is that she can not be redeemed in anyway in my eyes. I want to feel sorry for her, I really do, but she’s never sat well with me ever. What good thing has she done? She brought the children Starks into the world, that’s true, but that’s it. I can forgive her for hating Jon, that’s understandable, but really, come on now…
Jaime’s done some bad things – reaaaally bad things – but at least you can see a turn around happening throughout the story. She’s just getting worse as it goes.
The InstrumentalistQuote Reply
regarding Cat’s treatment of Jon – I think she treats him soooo much worse in the books than in show. In the books I feel it’s actually kind of shocking how cruelly she treats him. I can understand this (to an extent), but it’s not like he’s a threat to her children, their inheritances, and their fathers love.
SlizabethQuote Reply
The Instrumentalist,
oh, thank you, I needed that. Yes, her mistakes are ugly enough. Forgive her? I didn´t think about that but I would like to understand this character if that makes sense. But maybe it is what it is, just a poor character.
The way she treated Jon was the first thing that affected me. Not because of him personally of course (I don´t have a crush on the poor guy) but because is a petty thing to do to a child. She was all smiles with Ned, the alleged culprit/cheater/whatever, but an evil witch with the boy. But that´s personal I think, maybe because I know many children living in situations like this one and it drives me crazy.
Epic is right, ASoIaF really is a bad parents epidemic.
andreaQuote Reply
Re: Cat.
I really believe it’s impossible to understand the lengths a mother will go to to protect/avenge her children unless you are a mother yourself. (In that respect, Cat and Cersei really aren’t all that different.) I suppose a mother sees nothing but the things that need to be done for her offspring, where the rest of us see terrible choices bordering on madness and even evil.
That being said, Catelyn is the character that frustrates and aggravates and infuriates me the most (excepting Ned, and more recently, Dany) and if I had my way, Nymeria would have left her in the river. Seriously, before she rose from the dead and became an abominable unnatural scourge upon the land, the Brotherhood without Banners was doing fine, Brienne and Jaime were doing their damndest to find her daughters (oh, the agonising irony of it all!), and the Freys had made enough enemies at the Red Wedding to set their eventual downfall in motion.
Btw, the fact that Cat, among other aspects of ASOIAF, makes me feel this strongly at all, is part of what got me hooked to the story in the first place. It still amazes me that something I didn’t experience myself, heard from a friend or read on the news could occupy my thoughts to such an extent. And, no, I do not need to get a life, thank you very much. I just love a good story.
HirondelleQuote Reply
I don´t believe in that (well, maybe in extreme situations). We´re not lions or wolves, we can think, we can love our children and yet be reasonable especially when it comes to other children that not represent any real threat to our family. I mean, Jon is not the son of the devil. Right? (right? because you never know… ).
I agree with you on this. Perhaps the same thing happened to me at first. All those deeply flawed characters, the bad relationships between… well, almost everybody?
The good thing of all these, apparently, is that friendship stands out as the most healthy, happy and free relationship, right? Well, at least I hope so. (I can see more than one anti-psychiatrist happy with this.)
andreaQuote Reply
andrea,
Well, ASOIAF certainly is full of extreme situations and maybe that got to me, clouding my vision a wee bit. It’s just that I have seen perfectly reasonable, responsible and mild-mannered mothers see red, break rules, tell lies and pick fights when they saw their children threatened or treated unjustly. But essentialist generalisation is never the smart move.
Right! There’s Jon and Sam, Ned and Robert. Jaime and Brienne? Can you think of any more? Because all the others I can come up with are relationships shaped by loyalty (Davos and Stannis) or mutual benefit (Tyrion and Bronn) rather than actual friendship…
HirondelleQuote Reply
Hirondelle,
I also think that mothers would do anything to protect their children (in most cases). Which makes me wonder about Cercei, who certainly does love her children, but still seems blinded by her own greed. She was foretold her children would die, but she is still grasping onto the crown and will not dare let it go, even though she should reason by now it’ll probably be the death of her and her kids. But I suppose that’s just the denial talking.
Cercei is certainly a whole matter of discussion. I could probably defend her all day, even though I care not for her. It’s strange because I could never do that for Cat, who’s supposed to be the good one of the two. IMHO, they both deserve a quick clean death – and I’m saying that not because I’m mean, but because I think that death will offer them more solace they ever found in life.
But Cat really does need to die, I’m serious. For real this time, before she starts any more shenanigans. She can hang a few more Freys before she kicks off though. I’m holding onto the hope that Arya will come full force one day and just exterminate them all.
The InstrumentalistQuote Reply
yes, that´s true. There´s loyalty everywhere… almost blind loyalty sometimes. Other friendships you say, right, is not easy but lets try: Jon and Tormund, Jon and Mance (it seems that wildlings are good material for friendship), Jon and Tyrion, Bran with Jojen and Meera, apparently Ned and Howland Reed. All these friendships are not consolidated yet but it seems to me that they have a future. Sure there is more but can´t remember right now.
that´s something else. Lots of people would strongly react if they feel that a child is threatened or in danger, I think/hope.
andreaQuote Reply
The books make a much clearer case about Catelyn’s insecurities and motivations regarding Ned, Jon Snow, etc. There is way more tension between her and Ned in the books – remember, they barely knew each other when they married and they were apart for nearly a year right after conceiving Robb – she even remained at Riverrun and gave birth to him there and did not take up residence at Winterfell until Ned sent for her after he returned with Jon and his wet nurse. Ned spent the beginning of their marriage thinking he did his duty by marrying the woman who was supposed to marry his brother – not exactly a great love to start with. Yes, they grew to love each other in time and had the other kids but the books make it clear that Jon Snow is the one who really looks like a Stark and that infuriates Cat. She is even a bit harsher towards Arya in the books and Arya is the other child who looks and acts more like a Stark. As I have said before, I am not defending Cat at all and think she makes some really wacky decisions along the way. But people who only know the Stark marriage from watching the show have only seen the tip of the iceberg – there really are a lot of complicated emotions swarming around that relationship.
KQuote Reply
When I read your comments about friendship, I first thought it all made sense. But almost imediately after that, I thought about Arya. She often complains about her friends leaving her (especially Gendry and Hot Pie), and thinks somthing like: “they are no wolves, they aren’t my pack”. On the other hand, Arya is a phsycho, so perhaps she is a bad friend herself…
Somehow,it seems that I didn’t notice the depth in Cat and Ned’s relationship. She mentions the stark-looks once, and I forgot about that very soon. ;-) But she always wishes Ned was with her after his death. So, to me, it seemd like this “depth” was well in the past…
Lady ReedQuote Reply
I really want to believe that!
Great examples! And how about Jon and Tormund Giantsbane? Jon does seem to be among the more likeable people in Westeros. He has what many people look for in a friend, I suppose. He’s open-minded, fair, reliable/trustworthy (except when conflicting obligations get in the way, of course)…
K,
First of all, I bow to your superior capacity for keeping the facts of everyone’s background/motivations/inner-most thoughts and feelings straight! Reading your thoughts on Cat and Ned’s marriage I think, sure I knew that. But could I have called it forth and lined it up as nicely as you do? That’s a meek No.
Now, I always did get the feeling that Catelyn only really acknowledges the Stark side of her identity and plays the part of a woman of the North once Ned is gone. Even the show recognizes or at least alludes to the difficulties she has adjusting to and feeling accepted in her husband’s homeland: at the Winterfell feast she tells Cersei about how hard it was for her as a young bride to leave the south and acclimatize to the harsh North. And speaking with Ned beneath the Heart Tree, she still doubts whether the Old Gods approve of/welcome her.
Even Robb, born at Riverrun like his mother, takes many of his major steps as King in the North with Riverrun as his base, not Winterfell. He does it in his northern father’s name, but under his southern mother’s auspices. My point is, Cat and, to some extent, her firstborn are not as unequivocally northern as Jon, or even Bran with his special connection to the spiritual essence of the North. It’s only natural, of course, and it does explain Cat and Robb’s special bond (not to mention Cat’s approval of Sansa the proper southern lady and her discomfiture at Arya’s course northern ways).
The Instrumentalist,
Same here. It’s bizarre, especially because in AFFC Cersei makes me spit with loathing every time she opens her mouth. And she does seem to (ab)use her children as a claim to power more than anything else, especially Tommen and Myrcella. But what can you expect, with a father like that? Lord Tywin sure didn’t cherish his children for their sake. I think I have a harder time defending Cat because she so rarely gets off her high horse and even in moments of doubt, guilt and regret she always manages to justify her actions to herself. And now that the show is casting her as an unambiguous good guy, sans any self-recrimination or rough edges, I find her judgy ways even less palatable.
In conclusion, it’s a pleasure conversing with you guys!
HirondelleQuote Reply
Re-read my comment and you´ll see. I will never forget him, Tormund is a great, simple character and it was my first example of friendship!!!
Sure there are great friends among wildlings too. They’re more civilized than the rest of Westeros and I think Jon sees that… and yes, apparently Jon has it all.
andreaQuote Reply
I forgot about her and her friends. But you know, she´s just a little girl who has seen her father´s cruel death, she doesn´t know about her mother and brothers and she´s lost in the middle of a war. She still don´t understand the true meaning of friendship, just wants her pack of wolves, a family to protect her, their smells, etc. When a child feels helpless or abandoned, you´ll be surprised to know how strong is their survival instinct. And they can get really aggressive if necessary (phsycho you say jijiji). Maybe we could say that she will befriend J´aqhen?
andreaQuote Reply
Just waiting for someone to defend Tywin with something like: Ironically he and his wife (the mother of his children) were The Happiest couple in all the land. Everyone was so happy, their kids were perfect, life was good, the coffers were full. Then she died giving birth to Tyrion, which just ruined everyone’s day. Since then old Tywin’s never been the same, turned bitter, etc, especially to Tyrion the Imp. And yes he had greater expectations for his son Jaime. And yes he uses his kids for political purposes just like any self-respecting noble would. But when it comes down to why he’s a bad father, it’s because of how he treats Tyrion. The other kids (Jaime and Cerise) are just disturbed people for no apparent reason. Jaime’s moral compass may have been recalibrated, but he is essentially a self-pitying monster with a charming smile–you can never run away from that past completely. Cerise has said too many things aloud to ever convince an audience that she is more than (also) a self-pitying monster.
And as for Tyrion, he was so book smart about dragons at first, but then by comparison you have real scholars in oldtowne; Tyrion shed his books for the wine bottle and dick jokes. Tyrion is more a drunk loser and patron of whores with a sense of war strategy than a book smart beatnik guy, or a wild card, or even just a nice poor fellow.
Epic WunderscheisseQuote Reply
ouch!
ouch!
ouch!
Are you preparing yourself for what will rain over you after this? How courageous you are… speaking of Don Quijote. I´ll send a lawyer right away. Let me know please.
andreaQuote Reply
Epic Wunderscheisse,
Oooh, going against the “groupthink”. Bold. I like it.
I bet you hated the Lannisters before it was cool.
HirondelleQuote Reply
Carolina,
Well, I tried to do as you ask, but I would have thought the text would be in English. I’m sorry, but I am not familiar with the language on that page, is it Portugese?? If it were in English, I would happily read and most likely ‘like’ it :)
jamesQuote Reply
Epic This,
I LOVE this – (Except Littlefinger, who must be Dutch). Made me laugh out loud, amongst all of these other posts. I love this show, the books – dragging out book 5 as lonng as I can – and even all of the supposition on this site. But your comment, quoted above, has made my night! Blessing to you, from the old gods and the new :-)
jamesQuote Reply
Well, as to Bad Parents and Spouses of Noble Houses of Westeros, y’all need to acquaint yourselves with some pre-20th century history of marriage, family and childhood. It’s a much more calculating worldview, and “love” isn’t a big part of it.
Catelyn is more loving than most mothers of her station, and is doing her best to help Robb grow up and be Kingly. Which also means doing her best to get him a kingdom, and STICK IT to the Lannisters, who’ve incidentally beheaded her husband, whom she really DID grow to love, as arranged marriages sometimes work out.
And even now, plenty of otherwise-sane people are quite forgiving of infidelity, and also many are less than nice to their stepchildren.
Anyway I still doubt that Jon is Ned’s son. I think he’s a Stark because of his mother, Ned’s sister, but he’s got *ahem* Targaryen blood through his father. And I’m hoping that he will use his Warg thing to carry on after his rather fatal setback.
GRRM takes a rather dim view of decisions based on emotion, much as we love the characters for making them. That’s one of his greatest strengths as an author: he isn’t seduced by his own characters. They STAY in character, which is either their undoing or their success, with just enough luck thrown in to make it interesting. Like real life.
CatQuote Reply