Recap round-up: “The Old Gods and the New”
By Ours is the Fury on in Press.

Here are some notable recaps and reviews of the sixth episode of season two of Game of Thrones:

Book Readers
Axechucker – TV Equals
James Hibberd – Entertainment Weekly
Maureen Ryan – Huffington Post
James Poniewozik – Time
Jace Lacob – Televisionary
Alyssa Rosenberg – ThinkProgress
Sean T. Collins – Rolling Stone
Todd VanDerWerff – A.V. Club
Rowan Kaiser – Press Play
Sarah Hughes – The Guardian
Eric Goldman and Matt Fowler (Video) – IGN
Josh Wigler – MTV.com
Laura Hudson – L.A. Times
Westeros.org

New Viewers
Jenifer D. Braun – The NJ Star-Ledger
David Sims – A.V. Club
Alan Sepinwall – HitFix
Matt Richenthal – TV Fanatic

HBO also provides recap and “Inside the Episode” videos every week:

Youtube Version

Youtube Version


255 Comments

  1. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Several of the reviews/recaps that I usually include weren’t available as of posting time. I don’t know what’s up with that. I guess everyone slept in today. :)

  2. Angel Andres
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Thanks.

  3. Mike
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury:
    Several of the reviews/recaps that I usually include weren’t available as of posting time. I don’t know what’s up with that. I guess everyone slept in today. :)

    At least one of the reviewers mentioned that this episode was the last one he got as an advance copy. So his reviews would be later in the day starting next week. Not sure why the others were late this week, but you may want to keep that in mind for next week.

  4. Magnus
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I especially wonder about Larry. He uses to be very fast. I hope he hasn’t been discouraged by all the flaming.

  5. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Mike: At least one of the reviewers mentioned that this episode was the last one he got as an advance copy.So his reviews would be later in the day starting next week.Not sure why the others were late this week, but you may want to keep that in mind for next week.

    Not everyone got the screeners for these last two eps. Even less will be receiving screeners for the final four eps.

  6. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Mike,

    There’s still more than enough time to get reviews up; I don’t plan on waiting until late afternoon to post the round-up because I do think it’s something people enjoy to read the morning after a show. I did wait a bit longer today though to post, to give people a chance to catch up.

  7. T-Good
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Magnus,

    I am worried too. Hopefully he’s just too busy and didn’t have time.

  8. Andy Gavin
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    As usual, plot lines twist and knot, but now the setup is mostly accomplished, and things move very rapidly here in the middle of the season. Plus we meet Ygritte! I’m thinking the theme of this episode is trust and betrayal, and it sure is fun. My full episode review here.

  9. Solar
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    the new viewer recap gets shorter every week :/

  10. Maxwell James
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Once again I’ll recommend non-reader Laura Stone’s very witty recaps.

    http://heydontjudgeme.com/2012/05/07/game-of-thrones-2-6-the-old-gods-and-the-new/

  11. Laura Stone
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    Thank you! I almost left a comment here pimping out that post, and you were lovely enough to do it for me. Which means you get a 40/60 cut, right? ;)

  12. Ammhist
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    I too am worried about Larry, I read here daily but have posted maybe once. When I saw your link to his first review I emailed him (I thought it was great! Go back and watch it!) and he responded with “really???? send me the link”. That was the last time I have ever heard from him. After reading the posts of the last week I wouldn’t blame him for hanging it up… but I hope that’s not the case.

  13. Ammhist
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Ammhist,
    correction: the link was from someone in the comments section not Winter is coming.

  14. Frank Tarkenton
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Andy Gavin,

    The way you plug your blog all over this site is incredibly annoying. Normally I ignore you but today I’m in a bad mood and felt compelled to let you know this.

  15. Ash
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    A preview is on you tube for episode 7 now!!!!

  16. Paco
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    huh… i must not pay that much attention cuz this is the first time Ive noticed that FaB has his own recap. LOL @ his manly tears. LET THEM FLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

    also… after this episode, loving Theon is a very lonely job.

  17. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    As always, love the recaps from the usual gang of idiots :)

  18. Remaal
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Maxwell James,

    I love her recaps!

    Ash,

    Saw it. Yay Jaime!

  19. Ed
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    > “Think they’re out looking for you?” she asks. “Yes,” Jon says. “Think they’ll find you?”
    > she asks. “Yes,” Jon says.

    > The book readers lean forward …

    > But Thrones writers are just teasing us. Not yet.

    Love, love, LOVE this from hibberd’s review!!!

    This described me perfectly last night!!! I just KNEW she was gonna say it!!

  20. Lana
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Ash,

    Yep, just saw it and am dubbing it The Return of the King…slayer.

    “I’m not well suited for imprisonment.” I love Jaime, I just…I can’t help it.

  21. Mike Chair
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Where’s Larry? I can’t get through a Monday after a GoT Sunday without my Larry.

  22. T-Good
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Seriously, I’m dieing waiting for Larry

  23. Mirri Maz
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Ed,

    i was the same, i kept looking at her and wanting to see her utter those magical words. i actually like the fact that they are teasing us.

  24. markotom
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Larry….where are you?????

  25. Josh
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Ed:
    > “Think they’re out looking for you?” she asks. “Yes,” Jon says. “Think they’ll find you?”
    > she asks. “Yes,” Jon says.

    > The book readers lean forward …

    > But Thrones writers are just teasing us. Not yet.

    Love, love, LOVE this from hibberd’s review!!!

    This described me perfectly last night!!!I just KNEW she was gonna say it!!

    Haha it’s so true. I was like “Say it…say it….”

  26. Random fan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Glad that like me, so many people are waiting for Larry’s review. Just goes to show that the people trying to stir the pot against him last week were the minority point of view. Those bugs won’t crawl out of the cracks unless he rips their beloved Sansa again. A shame, the annoying few might ruin it for the rest of us….I hope he realizes not to bother worrying what those people say, as most of us don’t care what they say either.

  27. Mike Chair
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    … he cuts her off at the pass and tackles her in a big, flailing pile of fur-trimmed adorableness.

    and

    She [Osha] drops her robe, revealing that wild women also know their way around a bowl of hot wax, if you catch my meaning.

    mean that Brian Juergens’ recap is up at AFTERELTON.COM

  28. Nimble Dick
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    WERE IS LARRY’S REVIEW?????

  29. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Random fan,

    Let’s not get into insulting other commenters. I have no idea why Larry hasn’t posted a video yet. It’s unfortunate, and I hope he doesn’t give up reviewing. :)

  30. Shady_Grady
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I liked the Theon storyline this week and thought it foreshadowed nicely what is coming. Most people in the story are working from limited information and there is nothing they can do about it.

    http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2012/05/hbo-game-of-thrones-recap-old-gods-and.html

  31. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    I like Larry, but his reviews haven’t been doing it for me this season. I miss the SciFi-Christian reviews more. Still, I most anticipate the i09 recaps every week, since they’re always the best written with less recap and more analysis. Maybe, now that most critics haven’t received screeners for the upcoming episodes, this should be posted Monday evening in order for it to be a bit more comprehensive. Also, David Chen’s newbie podcast reviews from /Film should most definitely be linked here as they are pretty awesome.

  32. T-Good
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    meandme,

    I really hope that isn’t what happened

  33. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    From Hibberd:

    “Now Jon has a big problem. It’s getting dark. He’s separated from the other men. He’s alone with a beautiful sharp-witted woman who clearly kind-of likes him. And he’s …

    Wait, did I really say Jon has a problem? Seems to me, this is the best thing that’s happened to him since he left Winterfell! But to noble, sworn virgin and black crow Jon Snow, this isn’t any fun.”

    Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

  34. fuelpagan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    I hope Larry is OK and the delay is simply him wanting to reflect on the episode before posting his recap.

    But if this is some stunt because of the issue last week with the responses to his Sansa rant…bad move on his part. It says a lot about the type of person he is and I have no interest in seeing any more of his reviews if that is the case.

    I would gladly support him on his opinion about any of the characters whether I agreed with it or not. His right to like or not like a character is his preference. But I refuse to support immaturity.

    I truly hope this isn’t the case.

  35. chavalah
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets: miss the SciFi-Christian reviews more.

    I loved those too! They were so quirky and fun. Sad that the duo didn’t pick up the show this year.

  36. fuelpagan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Larry may have not been able to watch the episode last night. I’m not sure where he is, or what provider he is using, but I know AT&T had a pretty big outage here in Florida starting yesterday. Several of my friends with U-Verse couldn’t watch last night because they had no TV or internet.

  37. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Steve,

    The fact that they expressed a different opinion to yours does not make them trolls. [EDIT: I see you've altered your comment since I posted. I'm hoping that's because you realised you were wrong to call them that.]

    I am eager to see Larry’s next review, but until it appears (assuming that it will) there is plenty of material in the other reviews and recaps that is worthy of discussion.

  38. Remaal
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Todd VanDerWerff of A.V. Club gave ep 6 his first A of season 2. I read his reviews every week, despite the fact that I almost never agree with him. Today I do (you could have knocked me with a proverbial feather). An excellent and insightful review.

  39. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Andy Greenwald’s non book reader review is up at Grantland:

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/49005/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-6-the-old-gods-and-the-new

    He also has a great podcast that is up on Tuesday.

  40. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:42 pm | Permalink
  41. All_Men_Must_Post
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    My thoughts on last night’s ep (here and below):

    Last night’s Game of Thrones was very mixed for me. On one hand, I really enjoyed certain scenes and departures from the source material. On the other, I felt the editing was a bit choppier than in prior episodes. If there was one central theme that played out last night, it was an interesting parallel on how the young rulers all lost a bit of their innocence (or naiveté). Three of five stars.

    What I liked:

    1. You are truly lost. Oh Theon. Alfie Allen’s mannerisms in the taking of Winterfell betray his bravado. This is an insecure young man who doesn’t have a home to call his own. I liked his adult conversation with Bran because even though Bran is a crippled child, Theon still talks to him as an adult, likely because of his familiarity with the Stark child but also his own discomfort as prince-conqueror. You can also see Theon being painted in the corner with the beheading of Ser Rodrick. It’s a sick bastardization of his two fathers (Balon Greyjoy and Ned Stark) reflected in a single scene. Rodrick insults him so he must pay the iron price, but because Theon is ruler of Winterfell, he takes the man’s life with his own hand. His two dads would be so proud.

    2. A vicious idiot for a king. The scene was probably stolen (again!) by Peter Dinklage and his slap, but I want to commend Jack Gleeson, the young actor who portrays the vicious idiotic king, Joffrey. It’s hard to play a role like this without it spiraling towards some caricature but Gleeson does it well, particularly in his eyes. Like Theon, I see in Joffrey’s eyes a deep well of insecurity. When he’s angry from being slighted, you can see him fighting off his own tears. No wonder he’s so tough on his little brother.

    3. Sansa-Sandor or every dog has his day. The readers of the books know there is a strange connection between the valley girl Sansa Stark and the stoic soldier, Sandor Clegane. The Hound doesn’t enjoy killing but he knows this is something he was born to do. He’s known pain (the burned side of his face marks his baptism into the cruelties of this world) so he has his own sense of justice and honor. He sees in Sansa a beautiful creature thrust into this cruelty and while he won’t go out of his way to save her from it, he will not let her drown in it either. As for Sansa… remember the actress Sophie Turner was 15 when this was filmed. Cruel indeed.

    What I didn’t like:

    1. I am the mother of dragons. Daenerys’ schtick is getting to me. I really loved her character in the books but I feel like since she’s gotten to Qarth, it’s been all posture and no payoff. Maybe it’s a commentary on power (or her lack thereof). If so, it’s a bit heavy-handed for my tastes. Her stolen dragons is a mixed bag for me. I don’t like it because it feels like an unnecessary departure from the books (and wow, is her khalasar tiny!) but I think as most viewers/reviewers noted, it’s likely the forcing mechanism into the House of the Undying.

    2. Bad editing. Okay here is a technical gripe about last night’s episode. In prior episodes, we successfully jumped from scene to scene with a mechanism that tied them together. Sometimes the mechanism would be a throwaway line that reminded the viewer about another character. My personal favorite was the comet from Episode 1. It reminded the viewer (and the show’s denizens) they all lived on the same planet and while the comet meant different things to everyone, it was a binding element. Where was our comet from last night? I felt the scenes were hastily spliced together last night, which really threw me off.

    We only have four more episodes until the end of Season 2. It’s amazing how quickly this show has become a mainstream phenomenon. What was once relegated to the geeky recesses of the public library is now on its front shelves. You see, once upon a time, I was a dorky 14 year old whose parents deposited him at the library on Saturdays because they didn’t want me at home playing video games. So I would comb the fantasy/sci-fi aisle, reading books from Feist, Williams, Eddings, among others (I discovered Martin late).

    Last week, a friend told me she was pregnant with their first child. I joked I hope she didn’t deliver a shadow baby (she’s a geek gal). She responded that this year was the year of the dragon so she’s looking forward to saying things like: “You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?” The fact that many of my non-geek friends would get that reference tells me: “Geeks, we have finally arrived.” Oh and side bar: Avengers was awesome.

  42. All_Men_Must_Post
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Okay seriously… who wasn’t waiting for that line?

    I hope they don’t cut it out completely and are just teasing… because clearly at that very moment, Jon Snow knows nothing.

    Ed:
    > “Think they’re out looking for you?” she asks. “Yes,” Jon says. “Think they’ll find you?”
    > she asks. “Yes,” Jon says.

    > The book readers lean forward …

    > But Thrones writers are just teasing us. Not yet.

    Love, love, LOVE this from hibberd’s review!!!

    This described me perfectly last night!!!I just KNEW she was gonna say it!!

  43. Meg
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I too loved Hibberd’s assessment of Jon’s “problem”

    Almost every person Jon has met at the Wall and beyond has basically called him a dummy in one form or another. He doesn’t seem to be too hurt by this, he just takes it.

  44. ravens20
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Superdeluxe: Andy Greenwald’s non book reader review is up at Grantland:http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/49005/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-6-the-old-gods-and-the-newHe also has a great podcast that is up on Tuesday.

    Andy Greenwald really has fantastic reviews that are interesting because he is a non-reader and a fantasy skeptic who came to appreciate Game of Thrones over the course of last season. His articles are usually aimed at humor but his Hollywood Prospectus podcast is extremely insightful.

    I hope his reviews start to get featured here.

  45. Oi!
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    So is anyone else thinking Doreah is involved in the Dragon-napping i mean the dragons were taken out of their cages and from the last episode only her (as their keeper/feeder) and Dany ( as their “mother) have their trust.

  46. Ash
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad larry is not on here, he doesn’t even have the brains to write down what he wants to talk about, he just says erm! All the time. And the 4 minute rant against Sansa was just OTT last week. Don’t miss his review at all.

  47. Ours is the Fury
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Let’s skip the drama, folks. If you want to know why Larry hasn’t reviewed yet, I have no idea, just go ask him. But people should not be insulting one another in comments. Please respect that. Thanks!

    ravens20,

    As I mentioned before, his come out too late to be included. If they came out in the morning, it wouldn’t be a problem, but we can’t hold up the recap for one reviewer, even a good one.

  48. MW
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Frank Tarkenton:
    Andy Gavin,

    The way you plug your blog all over this site is incredibly annoying.Normally I ignore you but today I’m in a bad mood and felt compelled to let you know this.

    There’s no point. I doubt he even reads this. He only comes here to cut-and-paste his advertisement in the recap threads every week.

  49. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    They usually are, but looks like his article was up late this morning.

    ravens20,

  50. Steel_Wind
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    I enjoy Larry’s vodcasts, this year and last.

    I doubt we scared him away. There are all sorts of explantions why these things can be delayed. It’s not a paying gig and there are a bazillion things which can come up in somebody’s life to interfere. Chillax.

  51. alde
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Larry!

    He hasn’t posted any videos for the whole week (he usually posts several), so I don’t think the reason is GoT-related.

  52. Josh
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Can we stop talking about Larry, PLEASE haha…

  53. Nimble Dick
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    alde,

    It could be Finals
    i know i have been slammed this week too

  54. Sean
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Is anyone else a little tired of these articles being nothing more than a synopsis of the episode? I really don’t understand the point of writing an article to basically re-hash what everyone just watched.

    IMO stick to commentary and opinions or don’t bother.

  55. rolle
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    The Scifi Christian guys were great to watch. I wait non-reader reactions as much as the episodes themselves maybe even more. I just love reading forums or watching video reviews where the people have no knowledge outside the show.

  56. Alan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    All_Men_Must_Post:
    Okay seriously… who wasn’t waiting for that line?

    I hope they don’t cut it out completely and are just teasing… because clearly at that very moment, Jon Snow knows nothing.

    They won’t cut it. It was an intentional tease. Remember, 99% of Ygritte is actually in book 3. They’ve got time.

  57. Carey Tran
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    Alan: They won’t cut it.It was an intentional tease.Remember, 99% of Ygritte is actually in book 3.They’ve got time.

    They won’t cut it entirely but I think it would be fantastic if they have her say it only once at the very last moment . . .

  58. Obosi
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    I can only speak for myself when I say they have both messed up and done well so far this season.

    I think the acting quality average has taken a tumble with the departure of Sean Bean, Mark Addy and Jason Momoa.
    Dinklage, Gleeson and the younger of the Stark Kids are holding the quality up for everyone else in my eyes.

    I understand why some changes are made and things are cut, but they seem to be making the changes and cuts in the wrong places. Case in point: Watching Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie trek across Westeros would have been a waste of time, but to have them all run out of the fort instead of staying inside to be attacked…well all the drama just evaporated from that scene, even with Yoren’s glorious death.

    The over use of Ros has not got me foaming at the mouth; in fact I thought some of her scenes were very good. However, the silly amount of sex scenes at the price of gem moments from the books is a very poor decision.

    But there are some very good decisions and changes that work as well. Jon and Ygritte’s chase makes sense from a TV point of view, The result os Arya’s second name to Jaqen was so much better than in the books. They’ve even managed to liven up Danyerys’s storyline which didn’t have much going on in the second book.

    I thought this episode was actually very good. Glorious Gleeson’s crazed ‘shit-stained’ performance was very powerful as he traded shouts with the brilliant Gleeson and his classic ‘Viscious-idiot-boy-king’ speech. At last we see some more Sandor Clegane (one of my favourite characters from the books)…If only he punched that last attacker in the face as he walked out with Sansa over his shoulder, that would have been a perfect scene.

    I liked Theon and Bran’s scenes also but wish they did not have to compress it as it was something I really enjoyed from the second book.

    Shows and film adaptations rarely live up to books (apart from Lord of the Rings which I thought surpassed the novels). We have to try and look at them as two seperate entities. It’s hard when we see how things could have been done better, but the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing…

  59. jarnomiedema
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    I’m more and more convinced that Reek = Dagmer Cleftjaw. If you check out the preview for next week, you’ll see what I mean. There’s the somewhat suspicious ‘I know things’ look from Dagmer (whose last name we haven’t actually heard so far). He’s the one whispering things in Theon’s ear. It’ll be interesting to see if he’s the one who suggests the kids next week. Another thing is that it might provide a surprise for book readers; casting Bolton’s bastard before we even knew he was cast, just as some of the other surprises this season. Personally, if this is the case, I’m not certain they’ll be able to pull it off, but hey; we’ll see! Just a month of GoT left: eeek!

  60. Del
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    No Larry so far. This is disappointing. Hope he didn’t get discouraged by a handful of people being ridiculous.

    Not talking about people who disagreed with him, which is perfectly a-okay. Talking about the people that went completely off the handle nuts about it.

  61. MW
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Looking forward to the day Westeros.org gives up on the show altogether. That should be a pretty entertaining rant.

  62. Alan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    jarnomiedema:
    I’m more and more convinced that Reek = Dagmer Cleftjaw. If you check out the preview for next week, you’ll see what I mean. There’s the somewhat suspicious ‘I know things’ look from Dagmer (whose last name we haven’t actually heard so far). He’s the one whispering things in Theon’s ear. It’ll be interesting to see if he’s the one who suggests the kids next week. Another thing is that it might provide a surprise for book readers; casting Bolton’s bastard before we even knew he was cast, just as some of the other surprises this season. Personally, if this is the case, I’m not certain they’ll be able to pull it off, but hey; we’ll see! Just a month of GoT left: eeek!

    This would be patently ridiculous. Could Dagmer be the one to recommend killing the miller’s boys and faking their deaths? Sure. If Dagmer is literally Ramsay and somehow ingratiated himself into being first mate on a Greyjoy boat? What? Really?

  63. DirtyDogFace
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Magnus,

    Yeah Larry seems pissed off all the time either about people commenting on his reviews or the show itself…..I can’t usually watch a full review of his anymore because of his anger issues. I loved his last year reviews though. Wonder if he is going to hang in there with the show.

  64. Katie
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    Oi!,

    I thought the same thing. She’s suspiciously missing from the Dany’s slaughtered people.

  65. Superdeluxe
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Some of the articles come off as ‘recaps’ others come with some really good commentary about certain scenes. Each serve their purpose

    Sean,

  66. greymouser
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Random fan,

    Hey, man, I’m not a bug just because I don’t absolutely abhor Sansa. Her supporters (or even just those of us who don’t outright vilify her) also have a right to their opinions, as I stated numerous times last week. However, if people were rude or even threatening to Mr. Larry Williams (and I know many were), that crosses a line. I also am of the opinion that Mr. Williams himself crossed a line in his review last week, since he let his emotions get the better of him and started cursing out all kinds of people, ranging from book fans who felt the need to correct him (and I can understand him getting frustrated at that, but not to the extant that he himself gets threatening…his words and body language last week suggested someone that was about to punch somebody out), to Sansa fans in general, and then going on a rant (even he described it as such) about his dislike for victims who don’t (or can’t or won’t) stand up for themselves. Unfortunately for Mr. Williams, he took a simple opinion about a character he disliked (and more power to him) and applied a logic that basically ended up (and I’m sure he probably didn’t intend this) telling women who were victims of violence, sexual or physical abuse, or rape, that it was their own fault for not fighting back. That might strike a resonant chord with women who actually have been abused, and know how it is to be powerless (or at least to FEEL that way).

    I don’t mind anyone hating on a fictional character, and I would try to treat people with differing opinions than mine with respect. The problem with Mr. Williams review is that he got a little off track with his remarks. You can hate Sansa because she’s a snot, you can hate her because she’s naive, you can hate her because she’s selfish, but when you say you hate her for being a victim (and I’m sure Mr. Williams was actually trying to come at this thing from a “pro-girl-power” point-of-view), you are stepping into some troublesome waters. I think Mr. Williams (from the reviews I’ve seen) tends to like strong women characters, but his definition of “strong” seems to lean more towards masculine strength, women who will punch and hack and stab and punish their enemies, and puts down the idea of “passive resistance” or “enduring”, seeing those as weaknesses.

    All I’m really saying is that I hope Mr. Williams doesn’t stop posting here. Just because I disagree with some of his viewpoints (and I agree with many of his thoughts), and just because he got a little out-of-control and over-emotional in last week’s review, he shouldn’t be afraid to state his opinions, or allow others to respectfully disagree with him. However, I know many people here like Larry’s reviews because he DOES get emotional, and embraces some things and lashes out at other things, and they find it to be a breath of fresh air. But you get back what you give; if Sansa supporters were rude to Mr. Williams, they certainly got back their share of vitriol, but since Mr. Williams responded in an emotional way, he can’t be too surprised if those who disagreed responded in kind. Hopefully we can all get past this nonsense, because Sansa’s not going anywhere for the moment.

  67. Crotalidian (Paul)
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Been A while since I posted as I was avaoiding casting or previews for season 2 to see if it affected my viewing (undecided so far)

    For Larry (lot of comments so no quotes)
    He I think he is in NOLA so may have had the same issue as Florida
    the responses on Facebook were very positive after last week and he put a post up saying he doesnt take things to heart and basically ‘haters gonna hate’

    I’m sure there are other reasons for the lack of posting and we will find out in Due Course.

    Always enjoy trawling thse on a monday/Tues especially for an episode with so many changes!

  68. greymouser
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Del,

    I agree. It’s just that I didn’t find any pro-Sansa post that seemed to go off the rails the way Larry did, although I’m probably just not looking hard enough. I didn’t, for instance, see any pro-Sansa folks telling Larry to “fuck himself with a flaming dildo” (but from his reactions, there must have been some pretty despicable things said to him in some posts). Or…it could just be that he’s very thin-skinned…I don’t know. The thing is, he didn’t help the situation by escalating the argument further (and making it personal for a lot of people). That being said, I’m no saint, and I’ve said things I regret (and others I don’t regret but which other people took offense at), and I’ll just state again that Mr. Williams shouldn’t be afraid to speak his opinion (and to be honest, he shouldn’t be afraid to say it however he wants…my thoughts are just that, thoughts, and I don’t believe in controlling or censoring anyone…if someone wants to take my advice, fine…if Mr. Williams thinks I’m a blithering idiot, I guess that’s fine too…I’m just throwing in my two cents). There…I’ll come down off my lofty soapbox now and I’ll shut up.

  69. Ben
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    This is the best non-book reader recap.

    Superdeluxe,

  70. Papa Bear
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    I miss Larry’s post as well. I did discover Sistah Speak podcast review for GOT. They are unspoiled to the books (please keep them this way) and watch the show a couple of times before commenting on it. We’ll probably have to wait for Saturday for this weeks review, but the last couple of weeks have been hysterical.

  71. SugarVampire
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Steel_Wind,

    If I am not mistaken, Larry is a college student. It could be a busy time for him. (Don’t really like his reviews but very appreciated his devotion and effort.)

  72. greymouser
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Ugh…I said I was done but I just wanted to add this little bit (since it’s been rattling around in the back of my head all week). My thoughts about Sansa’s current situation could best be summed up thusly; she probably should defend herself, or confront Joffrey in some way, and I beg she wishes she could. However, the important question to ask isn’t “Why doesn’t Sansa do something about her situation?” It’s “Why are so many people willing to sit back and watch her suffer?” Why don’t they do something about her situation? If Tyrion knows that his nephew is a monster, isn’t it as much his responsibility to put an end to such things? I know Tyrion scolds and disciplines Joffrey as best he can, and gives him a slap upside the head every now and then, but if Sansa is expected to go on some dagger-wielding suicide mission to save herself, why doesn’t Tyrion do the same? If you saw a 15 year old girl getting beaten in the street, or having her clothes ripped off, would you expect her to defend herself, or would you step in and help?

  73. Mean25
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    OtakuASSEMBLE usually posts Legend of Korra and ThunderCats reviews also, but not this weekend. He probably has some technical difficulties, it’s not ‘Sansa rant’ related.

  74. Oberon
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    STRANGE very VERY strange….

    Sir Rodrik Cassel dies without Naming Theon Turncloak?
    Which is the name he will be remembered for?

    Second Qhorin Halfhand was in my opinion the most
    fabled and most revered character in respectable magnitude
    in the second book?

    Why is the actor who is portaiting Qhaorin halfhand not as respactable
    and legandary concerning his acting.
    Which seems a little bit amateuristic.

    Would have loved liam neesom as suggested as Qhorin?

    A clash of kings had these characters as rememberable:
    Qhorin halfhand which has totally gone to waste because of this actor?

    Liked craster he is good and gilly.
    Jaqen Hagar is also excellent.
    Loved ygritte!

  75. Jason Snodgrass
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Laura Stone,

    Great review, Lara!

  76. Awenger
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:35 pm | Permalink
  77. Suzaku
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    jarnomiedema:
    I’m more and more convinced that Reek = Dagmer Cleftjaw. If you check out the preview for next week, you’ll see what I mean. There’s the somewhat suspicious ‘I know things’ look from Dagmer (whose last name we haven’t actually heard so far). He’s the one whispering things in Theon’s ear. It’ll be interesting to see if he’s the one who suggests the kids next week. Another thing is that it might provide a surprise for book readers; casting Bolton’s bastard before we even knew he was cast, just as some of the other surprises this season. Personally, if this is the case, I’m not certain they’ll be able to pull it off, but hey; we’ll see! Just a month of GoT left: eeek!

    That doesn’t really make sense, since Dagmar is an Iron Islander from Pyke who is clearly familiar with everything about their way of life and known by the crew.

    What’s more logical is that they’ve pushed the casting of Reek & Ramsay into Season 3 and are using Dagmar as a stand-in for the time being.

    I’ve mentioned this before, but I’m pretty confident that Theon and Reek will have a greatly expanded plot in the show which will be extended into and through at least seasons 3, because the alterantive is to follow the books and write them off the show completely until into season 5 at the earliest, since the closest they get to a PoV character in Storm is a written letter.

  78. Kingthlayer
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Awenger:
    The funniest review I ve tread from a non-reader:

    http://www.bestweekever.tv/2012-05-07/game-of-thrones-recap-how-not-to-train-your-dragons-old-gods/

    that was awesome

  79. poguemahone
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    So did anyone else get chills when Roose Bolton strode into the shot between Robb and Catelyn, after Catelyn chided Robb for pursuing Talisa? Some eerie foreshadowing there for book readers, it seems.

  80. Alan
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Oberon:

    Sir Rodrik Cassel dies without Naming Theon Turncloak?
    Which is the name he will be remembered for?

    There’s no reason someone else can’t give him that name. Or maybe it won’t be in the show. C’est la vie.

    Second Qhorin Halfhand was in my opinion the most
    fabled and most revered character in respectable magnitudein the second book?

    Why is the actor who is portaiting Qhaorin halfhand not as respactable
    and legandary concerning his acting.
    Which seems a little bit amateuristic.

    Would have lovedliam neesom as suggested as Qhorin?

    A clash of kings had these characters as rememberable:
    Qhorin halfhand which has totally gone to waste because of this actor?

    He seems like a fine actor to me. Liam Neeson — not anyone of his fame and demand — isn’t going to be on GOT. For one, actors like Neeson are expensive. Also, they can take the audience out of the show — seeing Neeson would make me say “that’s Liam Neeson” not “that’s Qhorin Halfhand.”

    The actor is shorter and squatter than described, and he’s definitely rougher and coarser than the Halfhand in the book. But I wouldn’t call his acting amateurish.

    Do you really think Qhorin is now a waste? That seems like a strong proclamation.

  81. Jay Sutherland
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Really surprised by Westeros.org’s misgivings with this episode. I’m a book reader and each week I watch it with two other book readers and two non-book readers. We were all in agreement that this episode was definitely one of the best of both seasons. It had the perfect mixture of drama, comedy, action, suspense. I think some people are thinking too far ahead and letting their doubts about future episodes spoil their enjoyment of the current episode. Let’s not second guess where they’re taking this; just enjoy it episode-by-episode.

  82. Mirri Maz
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Jay Sutherland,

    i agree that the Westeros review seemed a bit too negative and saying that the show is off the rails is a bit much but then again they are purists and very attached to the books so their views are going to be always in favor of the book (or at least it seems that way to me).

    i enjoy newbies reviews in general more than experts, the constant comparisons in many expert reviews is just tiring at times.

  83. Felt Pelt
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    I also miss Sci Fi Christian’s reviews. The book reader was always so proud of his knowledge and ready to go on long-winded tangents, at which the non-book reader would smile, and patiently wait to reiterate his prediction/opinion.

    Maybe they had a religious objection to violence/sex?

    I like these guys, non-readers (with automated podcast animation) who love the show and have a dialogue with their viewers to explain things while pleading not to be spoiled. They haven’t put up the most recent episode, but here’s episode 15:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnXCr3cbeww

  84. Chris
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Mirri Maz,

    I love Westeros but find their recaps incredibly painful to read. Its not that their grievances aren’t valid or anything like that, it’s just something about the tone, the delivery and the verbosity of it all, it just sucks the enjoyment out of the episode.

  85. Jay Sutherland
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    You know what I think they’ll do with the whole Ramsay storyline? You’re not gonna like this, but I think they’re gonna scrap it almost entirely. And you know what? I don’t think it’ll matter. I think Ramsay will ride up to Winterfell and take it back/burn it to the ground, as per the books, but we won’t see any of the Reek stuff or the manipulation of Theon.
    I don’t actually think his stuff is really as important as people are making out. For instance, my dad can’t even remember that stuff happening in the books, and only really remembers Ramsay from Book 5.
    I think that’s how they’ll play this with the show.

  86. Mimsy
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Awenger: Awenger
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:35 pm | Permalink
    The funniest review I ve tread from a non-reader:

    http://www.bestweekever.tv/2012-05-07/game-of-thrones-recap-how-not-to-train-your-dragons-old-gods/

    I’d like more of these kind of reviews. Thank you. =)

    “Truly, there is no more fitting, symbolic end to a Game Of Thrones episode than someone yelling “WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS???” and it being a LEGITIMATE CLIFFHANGER – I really do want to find out where her dragons are! Most other shows could have three main characters die in the last minute and I’d be like “that was weird, whatever,” then in this show, someone’s screaming about lost dragons and I’m like “OH MAN BETTER FIND THOSE F***IN DRAGONS! AHHHHH WE HAVE TO WAIT A FULL WEEEEEK DAAAMMMMIIITTTTTTTT” <— This slayed me!

  87. LordStarkington
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    Felt Pelt:
    I also miss Sci Fi Christian’s reviews. The book reader was always so proud of his knowledge and ready to go on long-winded tangents, at which the non-book reader would smile, and patiently wait to reiterate his prediction/opinion.

    Maybe they had a religious objection to violence/sex?

    I like these guys, non-readers (with automated podcast animation) who love the show and have a dialogue with their viewers to explain things while pleading not to be spoiled. They haven’t put up the most recent episode, but here’s episode 15:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnXCr3cbeww

    New one is up (I also like watching their recaps/reviews)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cLO5O81ho

  88. jkb
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    poguemahone:
    So did anyone else get chills when Roose Bolton strode into the shot between Robb and Catelyn, after Catelyn chided Robb for pursuing Talisa? Some eerie foreshadowing there for book readers, it seems.

    ‘eerie foreshadowing’, that’s the term! ye, i get those chills all the time with all characters who are gonna die, i love it ;p

    i got this reaction with some renly and robb scenes as well

  89. Langkard
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    So… we now know that FaBio is a San/Griff shipper! I knew it!

  90. Assunta Fiorini
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Awenger,

    That was great! Thanks, Awenger!

    I like reading a mix of serious, thought provoking reviews and also some clever, smack-talkin’ ones.

  91. Felt Pelt
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Thanks!

  92. Ahmad
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Please oh please, add Thinkherotv of house youtube on the list of reviewers.

    They are extremely insightful, funny and fast with the reviews. They are also spoiler-free!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ELP_y-CkZU&feature=related

  93. Bean
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    I gotta say the analysis/review on westeros.org summed up the weaknesses (and the strengths) of this episode perfectly.

    Fortunately, the core of good source material is keeping the show more or less on track. But this episode reminded me how easily tv production could turn a brilliant series into hokie tricks and scenes.

  94. patchy face
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Laura Stone,

    Laura – you are very hilarious…hope that WiC starts posting you in the non-readers review section going forward!

  95. Hugh Jass
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    I went the whole day thinking I was the only one who thought this was by far the worst episode of the series so far. And then I read Westeros.org’s analysis and felt totally vindicated! Their whole critique is spot on.

  96. Mimsy
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    Thank you for the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cLO5O81ho I’ve NEVER seen this type of toon review before. How cool!

    Thanks to everyone for your favorite youtube reviewers. They’ve all been fun to watch. Still hoping for Otaku to put his up as well.

  97. Siobhán Mooney
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington: New one is up (I also like watching their recaps/reviews)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cLO5O81ho

    Brilliant! Thank you for sharing this. I hope WiC adds it to the weekly roster, it’s truly excellent. :-D

  98. Turncloak
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Alot of people fail to realize that this is not clash of kings. This is the game of thrones season 2. The book is used as inspiration and a guide not the gospel. Changes will be made that are not in the book

  99. LordStarkington
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy:
    LordStarkington,

    Thank you for the link.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cLO5O81hoI’ve NEVER seen this type of toon review before.How cool!

    Thanks to everyone for your favorite youtube reviewers.They’ve all been fun to watch.Still hoping for Otaku to put his up as well.

    To give credit where it’s due, it was Felt Pelt who first linked to them (I just found their latest one). I enjoy reviewers like them though, as I get enough of the “argue for 15 pages over the importance of a minor aspect in one scene in the books or show” over at Westeros and not enough of the reactions from someone new to the story.

  100. J
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    If Roose had mentioned his bastard brother, then I might believe in the theory that Dagmer = Ramsay, but as it stands, it certainly seemed as though Roose was talking about a son. The actor playing Dagmer is OLDER than the actor playing Roose, and he looks it. There’s no way you can pass him off as Roose’s son.

  101. Jason
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Worst episode of the series? I obviously saw a different episode than some of you.

  102. Prince of Winterfell
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    Where is the “We do not Sow” review? I wonder if he feels bad for pledging to House Greyjoy. Atleast Theon has a great Catharsis down the road :]

  103. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    I just saw on Twitter that Westeros.org admitted they’d rather have had a 100% faithful show that got cancelled after one or two seasons, rather than a popular and successful adaptation that stays on the air for years to come.

    I do respect their knowledge of the books (especially Elio, he’s cool), but their opinion on the TV show has now become officially worthless to me.

  104. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Jason:
    Worst episode of the series?I obviously saw a different episode than some of you.

    Possibly the BEST of the series for me. Maybe better than Baelor.

  105. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Chris:
    Mirri Maz,

    I love Westeros but find their recaps incredibly painful to read. Its not that their grievances aren’t valid or anything like that, it’s just something about the tone, the delivery and the verbosity of it all, it just sucks the enjoyment out of the episode.

    Yup. Major buzz kill. I felt the same way when I read their review of Season 1 Ep 1 last year. Sucked all the fun and excitement right out of it.

  106. Eric Clark
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    J: his bastard brother, then I might believe in the theory that Dagmer = Ramsay, but as it stands, it certainly seemed as though Roose was talking about a son. The actor playing Dagmer is OLDER than the actor playing Roose, and he looks it. There’s no way you can pass him off as Roose’s son.

    Quote

    While I am not one to think Dagmer=Ramsey I will leave you with this food for thought.
    The actor who plays Stannis is MUCH older than Mark Addy A.K.A “7 HELLS NED” Robert Baratheon.

  107. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Eric Clark,

    But they are just supposed to be brothers, not father and son.

    I don’t hate the Dagmer/Ramsay theory, but I really hope it’s not true.

  108. Mimsy
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    LordStarkington,

    A big thank you to Felt Pelt as well. :)

    I prefer the light hearted takes on the series because I want to enjoy the heck out of the series and sometimes these threads get to be a bit too hateful. I’m thankful for those of you who keep reminding us to visit the silly recaps!

  109. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    I just saw on Twitter that Westeros.org admitted they’d rather have had a 100% faithful show that got cancelled after one or two seasons, rather than a popular and successful adaptation that stays on the air for years to come.

    I do respect their knowledge of the books (especially Elio, he’s cool), but their opinion on the TV show has now become officially worthless to me.

    A 100% faithful version never would’ve been greenlit in the first place.

    And from what I’ve heard the original version of the pilot WAS much more faithful to the books. Problem was when they showed it to people nobody who hadn’t read the books had a damn clue what was going on. Many fans really have no conception of 1)how much time would be needed to tell the entire story, 2)how much is lost without the POV perspective, and 3)how shitty the show would be without some creative license to translate it into a completely different medium.

    Now that’s not to say I don’t wonder about some of the changes they’ve made. But overall I’m very pleased with the results, especially now that, for many plotlines, I really have no idea exactly what’s coming next.

  110. Mike
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Agreed. Laura’s review is a hoot and a half.

  111. feyrband
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    3 things:

    Larry where are you?

    Provided Larry is more timely, his recaps should be before the break as they were previously.

    and you guys should really try to put up the New Viewer Recap sooner, even if the post isn’t complete, just so they have somewhere to discuss something without waiting hours or days to talk. If i was a new viewer i wouldn’t really bother checking back since it’s never there until waaaaaayyy after the book reader recap.

  112. Zack
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    I just saw on Twitter that Westeros.org admitted they’d rather have had a 100% faithful show that got cancelled after one or two seasons, rather than a popular and successful adaptation that stays on the air for years to come.

    I do respect their knowledge of the books (especially Elio, he’s cool), but their opinion on the TV show has now become officially worthless to me.

    Absolutely. To me that’s nuts. It isn’t like this adaptation is The Wiz or Baz Luhrman’s Romeo + Juliet for fuck’s sake. Can’t you be like, thrilled to see 80% of awesome shit from the text, and then 20% new stuff that takes you, as a book reader, by surprise? I mean, if I knew nothing was going to surprise me, there wouldn’t be any strange deviations, that would make me a lot less interested in tuning in each week.

    206 was one of my top 3 or 4 of the series for sure. This season has seen a very noticeable step up in quality from an already solid first season, as far as I’m concerned.

  113. J
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Eric Clark,

    You can pass off an older actor as a younger brother. I think it would be a little more difficult to pass off an older actor as a SON. And based on the dialogue in that scene from Roose and Robb, the “bastard at the Dreadfort” is meant to be a son.

    Now, do I think Dagmer is going to fill Ramsay’s role somewhat in S2 (by giving him the idea to kill the Miller’s children and pose them as Rickon and Bran? Yes. But he is not going to literally BE Ramsay.

  114. Hugh Jass
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    I don’t think Westeros.org was complaining about deviations from the book, rather that the new stuff is cheesy and nonsensical, scenes that aren’t very well thought out. Arya’s run-in with Amory Lorch for example.

  115. Prince of Winterfell
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Hugh Jass:
    I don’t think Westeros.org was complaining about deviations from the book,rather that the new stuff is cheesy and nonsensical, scenes that aren’t very well thought out.Arya’s run-in with Amory Lorch for example.

    Actually no. Westeros.org is clearly upset about changes from the book and that has been well documented. Think about how well the show is handling Jaqen’s kills as opposed to the book. In the book, Arya seems very idiotic for wasting a kill on Chyswick . She also has no excuse for not killing Tywin. A MAJOR GRRM PLOT WHOLE. Her interaction with Tywin on the show makes it plausible as to why Arya hasn’t named him to Jaqen yet. Just a good job by D&D to tighten up the loose ends and weak areas of GRRMs epic story

  116. LordStarkington
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Where’s that tweet from Westeros.org? I couldn’t find it on their twitter although I might have missed it.

  117. Prince of Winterfell
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    And FYI Talissa wrote the letter to lord Tywin. I’m convinced it was either her or Roose Bolton

  118. Prince of Winterfell
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Zack: Absolutely. To me that’s nuts. It isn’t like this adaptation is The Wiz or Baz Luhrman’s Romeo + Juliet for fuck’s sake. Can’t you be like, thrilled to see 80% of awesome shit from the text, and then 20% new stuff that takes you, as a book reader, by surprise? I mean, if I knew nothing was going to surprise me, there wouldn’t be any strange deviations, that would make me a lot less interested in tuning in each week.

    206 was one of my top 3 or 4 of the series for sure. This season has seen a very noticeable step up in quality from an already solid first season, as far as I’m concerned.

    Exactly! I’ve read all of the ASOIAF books and I just love the new twists the show is adding

  119. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    Prince of Winterfell: Actually no. Westeros.org is clearly upset about changes from the book and that has been well documented. Think about how well the show is handling Jaqen’s kills as opposed to the book. In the book, Arya seems very idiotic for wasting a kill on Chyswick . She also has no excuse for not killing Tywin. A MAJOR GRRM PLOT WHOLE. Her interaction with Tywin on the show makes it plausible as to why Arya hasn’t named him to Jaqen yet. Just a good job by D&D to tighten up the loose ends and weak areas of GRRMs epic story

    It made more sense considering Arya was a couple years younger in the books, and thus her naivete was more excusable. I was wondering how they’d get around that in the show, when most non-readers I’ve seen are saying “Tywin! Joffrey! C’mon, girl!” They really did need to do something to get around this issue.

    And I thought the scene with Amory Lorch was funny. Did it totally make sense? Not really (some of the TWOP non-readers are convinced Jaqen is Magic Man to have made the kill in time), but it’s not something I’m going to get hung up on.

  120. Long Ball Larry
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    you thought what?

    come on.

    Obosi,

  121. Delta1212
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Yup. Major buzz kill. I felt the same way when I read their review of Season 1 Ep 1 last year. Sucked all the fun and excitement right out of it.

    Whenever I start reading their analyses, my first thought is generally “Yeah, I guess that’s a reasonable criticism” and my second thought is “I’m really not enjoying reading this at all” at which point I close out of the window a paragraph or two into things.

    As far as I’ve read, they’ve never been annoying the way that some people do get in their rabidity over maintaining perfect faithfulness to the source material, but they are still kind of a downer to the point that they’re not on my regular rotation for reviews.

  122. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Long Ball Larry,

    LOL, awesome name! Gotta love Leon.

  123. Delta1212
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: A 100% faithful version never would’ve been greenlit in the first place.

    And from what I’ve heard the original version of the pilot WAS much more faithful to the books. Problem was when they showed it to people nobody who hadn’t read the books had a damn clue what was going on. Many fans really have no conception of 1)how much time would be needed to tell the entire story, 2)how much is lost without the POV perspective, and 3)how shitty the show would be without some creative license to translate it into a completely different medium.

    Now that’s not to say I don’t wonder about some of the changes they’ve made. But overall I’m very pleased with the results, especially now that, for many plotlines, I really have no idea exactly what’s coming next.

    Yeah, the first season was fun, but in this sort of way where you could make a game out of trying to pick the moment each episode would end on before watching it (I was 8 for 9, didn’t bother with episode 3 because I just had no idea). This season, I’m just enjoying the ride that comes with not knowing beat for beat what is coming ahead of time.

    Obviously, I’m still quite sure I know the broad strokes, but I’m no longer sure I know exactly what path their going to take between major plot points. It’s a different experience from the first season, as I said, but it’s just as entertaining. I also think that, while the first season generally had better “water cooler moment” endings for mode episodes, the entirety of each episode has been a lot stronger this season with more choices being made to reflect the strengths of the medium over strict adherence to the books as written, and I think Arya’s entire plotline epitomizes this.

  124. Lex
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    It’s amazing to me, how much Westeros.org HATED Amory Lorch’s death. In their recap and on Twitter, they keep going on about how they’re baffled that anyone could have written something so terrible, or that anyone could have enjoyed that scene. They also seem offended that the writers would DARE use some humour in what’s supposed to be a dangerous situation (“And then, to add insult to injury, the danger is played off as humor—humor!”). Oh god, PLEASE NOT HUMOR!

    Funny, cause I LOVED it. Laughed my ass off. Very clever way to show Jaqen’s skill (i.e. speed), and it was original (i.e. I’ve never seen an on screen death like that before). Loved, loved, loved it!

  125. Delta1212
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I know, Lorch’s faceplant was one of the highlights of the episode for me. It perfectly illustrated Jaquen’s almost mystical capacity for murder while being absolutely hilarious. I thought it was fantastic.

  126. Chris
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Lex,

    I agree. It seems like such an inconsequential thing really, and it’s not like the second death really held any importance in the book either. It may be a touch out of character with the books, but I’m okay with a little light-hearted TV drama here and there, especially since it definitely isn’t the norm.

  127. Leuf
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Prince of Winterfell: And FYI Talissa wrote the letter to lord Tywin. I’m convinced it was either her or Roose Bolton

    It can’t be Talisa or Roose. Here is the text of the letter as far as I’ve been able to make out:

    Marching ten thousand west to Lannisport _____
    the tooth. Estimate to reach you by week’s end. Sco___
    Robb Stark moving troops south by coast __ __ will ___
    turn east at Silverhill

    This has to be written by whoever is leading the remnants of Stafford Lannister’s force.

  128. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Just read the AV Club “for experts”, which has one of the best explanations I’ve seen regarding why it’s necessary to alter certain storylines, and how that can often be for the better.

  129. TheBull
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    I just saw on Twitter that Westeros.org admitted they’d rather have had a 100% faithful show that got cancelled after one or two seasons, rather than a popular and successful adaptation that stays on the air for years to come.

    I do respect their knowledge of the books (especially Elio, he’s cool), but their opinion on the TV show has now become officially worthless to me.

    I don’t even bother reading his reviews anymore, what a debbie downer. The serious formal tone doesn’t help either. I’m not sure why he’s watching the show if it clearly isn’t and can never be what he wants it to be.

  130. Zack
    Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    Delta1212:
    Lex,

    I know, Lorch’s faceplant was one of the highlights of the episode for me. It perfectly illustrated Jaquen’s almost mystical capacity for murder while being absolutely hilarious. I thought it was fantastic.

    Lorch’s death actually got an audible, sustained laugh out of me when I watched. I couldn’t have loved that moment more. I am hoping we get some bear pit action with a stand-in when the time comes, though.

  131. Igor Veloso
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Hey there people, wasn’t Vanessa Taylor somewhat controversial around the site a few weeks before the show started (season 2)?

    She wrote this Episode (106) and also Episode 104 from Season 2 of course. In both episodes, dispite having the obvious improvement and favoritism, which seems to be what is hapening every new episode, getting better and better, these two episodes were the only ones where people stated the fact of them being a bit weird. Off track. Inconsistent. Where more changes were made, even if they led to the same effect.

    I’m being guided for what the initial credits say: “Written by, tatatata”. I know she’s a co-exec-producer and everything has the hand touch of D&D on it even when other writer is leading the episode. But Vanessa Taylor has been in these two “weird” episodes.

    I know the controversy was around Alias going down, etc, etc. personally don’t care. I’ve got nothing against her nor in favor. Besides, this is her first work I see and all I know from her was guided by the amazing audience commenting here. Nonetheless….I’m curious about the reaction of it. I know it still too soon for a conclusion, this is a matter of discussion for the end of the season and it’s obvious why’s that, but I can’t stop myself from writing it here. I’m curious about how people feel about the new producer. The new (female) vision of the show.

    Personally I think every writer is doing a great job in it and you can spot when you’re getting a different style but the feelings gathered from the new co-producer are already picking my interest. I’ve got a good impression of everyone equally though.

    Just thought this was a curious fact of the show that’s all =p

    Love Arya/Jaqen scene. Good use of humor on the show, something I felt it was lacking of and glad it’s being delivered well while mixed with blood. A laughed at Jaqen face like “oh, c’mon…”. Funniest moment after the Ygritte/Jon stuff :D

  132. Weirwood
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Lex:
    It’s amazing to me, how much Westeros.org HATED Amory Lorch’s death. In their recap and on Twitter, they keep going on about how they’re baffled that anyone could have written something so terrible, or that anyone could have enjoyed that scene. They also seem offended that the writers would DARE use some humour in what’s supposed to be a dangerous situation (“And then, to add insult to injury, the danger is played off as humor—humor!”). Oh god, PLEASE NOT HUMOR!

    Funny, cause I LOVED it. Laughed my ass off. Very clever way to show Jaqen’s skill (i.e. speed), and it was original (i.e. I’ve never seen an on screen death like that before). Loved, loved, loved it!

    I seriously hope D&D take them off of the list of “experts” that Sky (and others) go to for their opinions. And that HBO removes them from the list of reviewers who receive early screeners. They obviously STILL are fans of the books. But ONLY the books. Their openly hostile derision of the TV series should be enough to have them blackballed from being perceived as “Uber-fans”.

  133. Eric of The Internet
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Weirwood,

    Those people over there are the worst. Just a bunch of hand-wringing joy-killers concerned above all with the purity of the source material. Their nutbaggery is almost religious.

  134. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Igor Veloso:
    Love Arya/Jaqen scene. Good use of humor on the show, something I felt it was lacking of and glad it’s being delivered well while mixed with blood. A laughed at Jaqen face like “oh, c’mon…”. Funniest moment after the Ygritte/Jon stuff :D

    This one also loved the Arya/Jaqen scene, my beloved gave the most incredible “WTF” face to Arya when she said “Now”!!! Lolz.

  135. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    David Chen (non-reader) and Myles McNutt from Cultural Learnings discuss The Old Gods and the New;

    http://www.slashfilm.com/cast-kings-s2e06-gods-guest-myles-mcnutt-cultural-learnings/

  136. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    I’m waiting for a ‘purist’ to tell me how the show deviating from the source material actually diminishes their enjoyment of the books. If anything the show leads millions of people to read the books and they get to see for themselves how good they are. This is a top notch TV program. And I judge it seperately from the books. If Westeros has such a disdain for the show, then they need to quit watching. The show is only going to deviate more and more once they get into AFFC and ADWD.

  137. Meg
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Prince of Winterfell: Just a good job by D&D to tighten up the loose ends and weak areas of GRRMs epic story

    Damn, when you put it that way, now I wish D&D had been THE primary editors on ADWD. Maybe future books…

    On Westeros: Linda yelled at me after I said (in a polite way) that their reviews were a difficult read after the high of an episode. Probably shouldn’t have even bothered being polite.

  138. Syrio
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    I think some of you are defending the show a little too vehemently as though any criticism is a sign of being “purist”.

    I don’t agree with everything westeros.org said about the episode. But the part about the 2nd kill of Jaquen being played for comedic effect is spot on.

    Jaquen is supposed to by mysterious, scary, and a bit creepy. His entire arc in ACOK was supposed to be some kind of parallel for Melisandre. They are both foreign, mysterious, charismatic, but also seems to be able to kill people with very dark and mysterious means.

    Biter and Rorge, two psychotic killers, were terrified of Jaquen. The reader, the audience, are supposed be glad for Arya to have this power, but at the same time a little scared for Arya, in a what kind of Faustian bargain has Arya gotten herself into kind of way.

    The way the show does it is turned Jaquen into a murder genie, and not in a Monkey’s Paw kind of way, but a I Dream of Genie kind of way. That to me is a change that serves Arya’s story very poorly.

  139. The DarkStar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Lex:
    It’s amazing to me, how much Westeros.org HATED Amory Lorch’s death. In their recap and on Twitter, they keep going on about how they’re baffled that anyone could have written something so terrible, or that anyone could have enjoyed that scene. They also seem offended that the writers would DARE use some humour in what’s supposed to be a dangerous situation (“And then, to add insult to injury, the danger is played off as humor—humor!”). Oh god, PLEASE NOT HUMOR!

    Funny, cause I LOVED it. Laughed my ass off. Very clever way to show Jaqen’s skill (i.e. speed), and it was original (i.e. I’ve never seen an on screen death like that before). Loved, loved, loved it!

    They are the leaders of the book Nazi’s. Which is fine. There is certainly a place on the net for them, and it is westeros.org.
    I find that, although they are the defacto greatest ASOIAF site, I rarely frequent it (and ASOIAF is my #1 time consuming hobby/interest).
    There are many sites out there to analyze and converse about ASOIAF and it’s adaptation with a much more open mind than they have there.
    One can gripe about the Amory death, but Arya’s nesessary choice to make it played out much better in the adaptation than her choice in the books, and if one can’t realize that, they are a blind extremist.

  140. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    I never really thought of him being anything like Melisandre. And judging from Arya’s training in AFFC, I don’t see many similarities between the Faceless Men and the red priests/priestesses of R’hllor. I just thought of him as a highly skilled assassin who can change his face.

  141. The DarkStar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Meg,

    Linda is bonkers.

  142. Syrio
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:45 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I never really thought of him being anything like Melisandre. And judging from Arya’s training in AFFC, I don’t see many similarities between the Faceless Men and the red priests/priestesses of R’hllor.I just thought of him as a highly skilled assassin who can change his face.

    If anything, reading about the faceless man’s training in AFFC and ADWD makes them much creepier than the Red Priests. The Red Priests are practically tame compare to them.

  143. JA
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:46 am | Permalink

    Some people are just obsessed with the books. Of course, the infallible (from their perspective) GRRM is an active participant in modifying the story for TV. It’s sort of like when Marx said ‘I’m not a Marxist.’ If GRRM doesn’t think the books are sacrosanct, then it begs the question of why anyone else should.

  144. Joop Stroop
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:49 am | Permalink

    LordStarkington: New one is up (I also like watching their recaps/reviews)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cLO5O81ho

    I like these a lot as well! Really, I generally tend to enjoy new viewer’s recaps a little more and hope the non-reader reviewers won’t be spoiled or annoyed with people telling them corrections about names, background info etc.

    To me, it seems that’s the reason some fire has been taken out of Otaku’s reviews this season, although I’m still enjoying them.

  145. Croccifixio14
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    on the changes and deviations from the books,

    i was tolerant on most deviations D&D made but some things i didnt just liked.

    like what i posted on the episode 5 review, the deviation that hit me was the killing of the Tickler. mostly because of the powerful scene in swords. the book 3 was a very depressing book and i almost tore my books a couple of times but there was a light on that dark tale and that was the satisfaction of the death of the Tickler and the change of Arya into someone close to a psychopath.

    i usually have a buzz when a new episode of thrones is up but the fire kinda lost because of what that deviation brought to me. to me now it is a sign that many things will change when they adapt the series. i mean if a powerful moment can be changed then what else could they change.

    maybe by the end of the second season ill fully get over it and i hope i will.

    although Lorch’s death was fine by me. since his book death has no impact on me and it will be quite possible that the bear will not show up in thrones since they seem to cup the bloody mummers.

    also, i don’t read westeros’ reviews. i respect their decision and reviews. they want a 100% pure adaptation. i was happy for at least a 75% but at the rate it is going, by the time we reach slaver’s bay, half of the scenes will be deviations. i just hope it will be the good change.

  146. Wes
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Prince of Winterfell,

    After rereading that very section just a few days ago, I have to disagree. Both are personal, immediate grievances. Chyswick was the man who captured her, and after she overheard him telling a “funny” story about how Gregor and crew (him included) gang-raped a thirteen year old girl she named him. She named Weese for his immediate cruelty/abuse to her, but very soon after naming him she realized her mistake and tried to unsay that name and name Tywin, but Jaqen killed Weese before she found him. Obviously she could have done better, but to consider it unmotivated and a plot hole is just ridiculous. She has more reason to name Tywin in the show, particularly for her first name, than she does in the books.

  147. Croccifixio14
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    Wes,

    if i remeber correctly, she was more focused on her survival and the people around her rather than the bigger picture which is the war. she realized her mistake when he sees tywin and his forces departing harrenhal and she though she should had named tywin

    i’m not sure but i remember something along that line

  148. Jenny
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:17 am | Permalink

    I can only advise again not to read any source material for 6 month before the show.
    You’ll hardly notice the smaller changes.

    I think Jaqen is one of the best cast and best written characters in this production.
    Not scary? He’s a total social chameleon. C’mon, how did he get into that uniform? He should be chopping wood!

  149. David
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:07 am | Permalink

    I hope Larry is alright. It’s been a while since we’ve seen any videos from OTAKU ASSEMBLE!

    weekly.

  150. Macha
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Zack: Lorch’s death actually got an audible, sustained laugh out of me when I watched. I couldn’t have loved that moment more. I am hoping we get some bear pit action with a stand-in when the time comes, though.

    Same here. I’m loving the added humour this season. The storyline gets darker and darker and television, as a medium, will only increase the impact this has on the viewers, so I – for one – welcome these moments.
    And yeah, the bear pit has to be there, it’s such a great scene – we know it, the writers know it. It’ll be difficult to film, but I’m sure they’ll want to include it. Who cares Amory Lorch is dead? They’ll just have someone else come up with the idea.
    Readers who are very attached to the books don’t seem to realize that the average non-reader viewer has a hard time keeping track of who’s who. Hell, some of them don’t even know the names of the major characters, not to mention secondary ones. Amory Lorch reeeeaally doesn’t matter to them, so I find quite funny how some readers get all pumped up over these minor changes. Oh well, that’s the internet for you.

    Aaaaanyway, to sum it up…possibly the BEST episode EVER, and congratulations are in order for Vanessa Taylor, she really turned me around after ep 4.

    But, alas!, it’s not the same without Larry. Hope he’s ok and that he’ll put up his review soon. I love reading some of the other reviews as well (and thank you for rounding them up!), it’s just that I have a soft spot for him ever since season 1.

  151. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    About the changes, I think the “book purist” point of view is as silly as the “tv fanboy” pov, a priori…

    Some changes are good and some are bad.They can’t all be good because nobody is perfect..(same way not all Martin wrote is good)

    Having said that we have to remember that noone knows the characters like Martin, and that he spends waaay more time thinking about each character arc, each plot etc than the show writers do.

    It was specially disappointing to find out that Vanessa Taylor didn’t even read the books before writing the scripts, a thing that she has already aknowledge was a mistake.

    On the other hand D&D’s knowledge of how to make a good tv show is far superior to ours, so our assessments of what changes are good or not are less valuable than theirs

    All can we do is give our opinions and keep on guessing, but I’m pretty sure they know better than we do where they’ve fucked up, thing is they probably won’t ever tell us ;)

  152. Anvil
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:
    It was specially disappointing to find out that Vanessa Taylor didn’t even read the books before writing the scripts, a thing that she has already aknowledge was a mistake.

    Any source for that?

  153. Joop Stroop
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:49 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:

    It was specially disappointing to find out that Vanessa Taylor didn’t even read the books before writing the scripts, a thing that she has already aknowledge was a mistake.

    What, how’s that possible? Are you sure about that??

  154. WinterComing
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano:

    Martin already admitted that he’s more of a “gardener” than and “architect” when it comes to writing. That’s not to say that he doesn’t plan ahead but we’ve already seen massive delays to the last two books and that approach isn’t gonna cut it for TV production.
    D & D were given $60 million to gamble with by HBO, you can bet your life they thought long and hard about the character/plot arcs and how it will translate to TV.
    Plus GoT is a full time job for D&D, they aren’t producing a Wildcards series on the side ;)

  155. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    Unless I’m very mistaken it was mentioned in a Thronecast interview (can’t remember wich one because I saw them, or rather listened to them while working, all in the same day). But could be also the Access Hollywood ones

    If I recall correctly they asked the actor (Dillane?, Van Houten? Dempsey?) if he/she had read ahead and then they talked about the pros and cons of that, an then they mentioned the writer didn’t do it and that in retrospective she thought that it was a mistake

  156. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    WinterComing: Martin already admitted that he’s more of a “gardener” than and “architect” when it comes to writing. That’s not to say that he doesn’t plan ahead but we’ve already seen massive delays to the last two books and that approach isn’t gonna cut it for TV production.
    D & D were given $60 million to gamble with by HBO, you can bet your life they thought long and hard about the character/plot arcs and how it will translate to TV.
    Plus GoT is a full time job for D&D, they aren’t producing a Wildcards series on the side ;)

    They also have a million other things to worry about/supervise besides the actual script (casting, directing, locations, if the wigs work, how to portray the direwolves, etc, etc, etc, and more etc….) ;)

  157. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    Leuf: It can’t be Talisa or Roose.Here is the text of the letter as far as I’ve been able to make out:


    Marching ten thousand west to Lannisport _____
    the tooth. Estimate to reach you by week’s end. Sco___
    Robb Stark moving troops south by coast __ __ will ___
    turn east at Silverhill

    This has to be written by whoever is leading the remnants of Stafford Lannister’s force.

    IMHO, this is a bogus message that Tywin planted specifically to discover if his new cupbearer is a Northern spy. Silverhill isn’t anywhere near the coast.

    Arya herself is worried that Tywin will discover her true identity, but he’s been playing a different game all along:

    a) The reason it was Amory Lorch – a member of Tywin’s inner circle – who took Yoren’s prisoners is that the Gold Cloaks asked Tywin for assistance in the hunt for Gendry, Robert’s only remaining bastard child. Evidently, Tywin agreed to take care of it because there were no Gold Cloaks in Amory’s party. He would have reported the capture of the NW prisoners to Tywin, who rushed to shut down the Tickler’s little horror show before Gendry is killed. Tywin knew full well that a bastard has no claim on the throne anyhow, so he decided to put a stop to this particular madness of Joffrey’s.

    Ever pragmatic, Tywin also didn’t want to waste manpower in the middle of a war. A smith is a valuable resource. It’s unclear if Tywin realized that he was in fact Gendry the black-haired armorer’s apprentice, chances are he suspected as much.

    b) Surveying the prisoner pen, Tywin saw a young girl in boy’s clothing. Very unusual! When he asked her why she was in disguise, she answered that it was safer to travel that way. Her Northern accent immediately revealed to Tywin that she wasn’t from a village near Harrenhal. Also, the Night’s Watch doesn’t take girls, so why was she traveling with Yoren? Why was she traveling at all? Tywin smelled a rat and made her his cupbearer, determined to get to the bottom of this mystery.

    c) At he first meeting of his war council, he quickly exposed her as a liar when he asked about where she was really from. He also asked her what Northerners were now saying about Robb, to assess where her loyalties lay. The “Young Wolf” moniker and the tall tales about his invincibility are relatively new, so where did she hear about them? Also, she dismissed them, saying that “anyone can be killed” directly to Tywin’s face. Ok, so she’s fiercely loyal to the North. This Lannister keeps his friends close and his pint-sized enemies closer.

    d) Tywin now decided to find out if she was, in fact, a spy. Using an intelligent child for such work wasn’t unusual: he was Hand of the King for 20 years before Robert’s rebellion and knew of Varys’ little birds. Indeed, if his new cupbearer was spying, it might not even be for Robb. After all, Tyrion said Tywin hadn’t sent any ravens to KL in weeks.

    e) The first step was finding out if the cupbearer could read, so Tywin and Amory concocted a ruse about the latter inadvertently sending messages to the enemy because he couldn’t read or write. Seriously, would Tywin really permit an illiterate person who wasn’t a Lannister to be part of his war council?

    f) Next, Tywin planted the above bogus message on the table. Quizzing Arya who taught her to read, she answered that it was her father, a stonemason who was killed for his “loyalty”. How many Northern girls living in KL had lost their fathers for their loyalty? At this point, if not sooner, Tywin must have realized that she might in fact be Arya Stark. If so, his idiot grandson Joffrey had failed to keep her locked up.

    g) Next, he demonstratively set down with his back to the table and allowed the girl to change the subject. Would Tywin have left a message of genuine military value on the table for her to take a peek at and take when he asks her to go fetch something? Of course not!

    h) It was also no coincidence that the person who intercepted her was Amory. He was able to read the message quick smart! Not so smart, however, was his failure to seize the girl.

    j) Amory still held the message in his hand when he died, so Tywin now has proof positive that his cupbearer is indeed a military spy, probably for Robb Stark. Moreover, she or someone working with her assassinated Amory. Killing him didn’t protect Arya, it exposed her.

  158. Siniša Grimjaur Šiško
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Interesting how ppl trip over about (fake/poseur) Larry Williams and his shallow, childish and hyped up vids, while noone notices that Myles McNutt’s intelligent, witty, detailed and in-depth recap from Cultural Learnings is also missing.

    Tells a lot about someone.

  159. Conal Logan
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Siniša Grimjaur Šiško,

    If you want Myles’s opinion you should listen to the most recent episode of Cast of Kings.

    I agree. Mcnutt and Hibberd blow Larry outta the water. The only reason Larry is popular is because of his visceral reaction to Ned’s death.

  160. purplejilly
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:59 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Several of the reviews/recaps that I usually include weren’t available as of posting time. I don’t know what’s up with that. I guess everyone slept in today. :)

    Do you keep adding more as they come online, or just put the one recap list up and that’s it?

  161. john
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Never read the books, thankfully. I frankly couldn’t care less if the tv-show deviates from the books – I wouldn’t even know if it happened, obviously. I’m pretty sure that applies to the vast majority of people watching the show on TV as well. I.e. I think the book readers are in the minority. People who watch HBO does not equal people who read fantasy, generally. Anecdotally, most of the people I know who watches the show, have not read the books.

    I have to laugh at the nerd rage displayed by some people, though. It’s hilarious. Especially those goofs over at westeros.org. Get fucking laid, asap.

  162. daprosinik
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    We got it the first time, don’t need to post it three times.

  163. purplejilly
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,
    Wow, that is a very cool idea! Bravo!

  164. Ed Pickness
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    I heard that Larry Williams won’t be doing a video review because he was upset that the Hound saved Sansa. He was so rooting for those thugs that nearly got her.

  165. LV
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    [My mobile browser messed up. Please excuse the multi-post and delete the above ones, if you would be so kind. Thanks!]

    Prince of Winterfell: Think about how well the show is handling Jaqen’s kills as opposed to the book. In the book, Arya seems very idiotic for wasting a kill on Chyswick . She also has no excuse for not killing Tywin. A MAJOR GRRM PLOT WHOLE. Her interaction with Tywin on the show makes it plausible as to why Arya hasn’t named him to Jaqen yet. Just a good job by D&D to tighten up the loose ends and weak areas of GRRMs epic story

    The DarkStar: One can gripe about the Amory death, but Arya’s nesessary choice to make it played out much better in the adaptation than her choice in the books, and if one can’t realize that, they are a blind extremist.

    You see, these are just another kind of superficial and extreme points of view that add nothing to the discussion as far as questions of adaptation are concerned.
    In the novels, Arya is considerably younger than in the television series. She is also much more impulsive or at least very impulsive in certain situations: Her first two kills reflect this attitude and her (appropriate) lack of mature, strategic thinking. She could have ordered anyone killed, even Joffrey, Tywin or Cersei… Instead, she uses her power to punish characters in her immediate vicinity, characters who wronged her or others. Arya is a vengeful, at times short-sighted girl of about ten – who, on the other side, is also very clever, adaptive and resourceful. Her decisions in the novels are understandable (if, at times, quite unbelievable in light of her age – after all, she is a tomboy badass). Arya in the television series is a slightly different character.
    But the question is not, whether novel-Arya is superior – as a fictional person – to television-Arya. Because that is merely a matter of personal taste. The question is, whether both Aryas are characters who’s decisions  ‘make sense’ considering their thoughts, beliefs, motives and emotions (as well as their role as characters in a narrative, but that is another matter). In the novels we know, of course, much more about all this because of her POV-chapters. But the television series does a good job of characterising many of its dramatis personae, Arya among them. And considering what we know about her, television-Arya (though a different character) is believably written and superbly acted. Thus, her decisions in the series make sense and there is no obvious reason to criticise D&D’s choices.
    This is not to say that there aren’t other questionable changes concering characterisation or narration (I am very displeased with television-Catelyn, for example) but to simply argue against a particular decision or event in the series just because it plays out differently than in the novels is obvious nonsense.

    And, by the way, westeros.org do not criticise deviations for their deviating. They praised many of D&D’s ‘new’ scenes. Their critique makes it perfectly clear what they do and don’t like.

  166. WinterComing
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: They also have a million other things to worry about/supervise besides the actual script (casting, directing, locations, if the wigs work, how to portray the direwolves, etc, etc, etc, and more etc….) ;)

    They also have other producers, casting directors, costume designers, location scouts and Bryan Cogman to help them do all that. In any case, the fact that GRRM considers himself a “gardener” is the more important point. I interpret that as having a general idea of where the story is going and adding details along the way. When you’re producing a multi-million dollar production those details are important now because of the pre-production work.

  167. New Wolf
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    When is the new viewer recap going to come out? I hope you haven’t given up on it, especially since I think this episode is the best one yet (out of both seasons)

  168. Unsullied
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Agree 100%. I’ve totally stopped going to that site for their views on the show. Now their discussions on the book material (theories, etc.) is really good, and I continue to go there for that, but stop reading their reactions to the episodes.

  169. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    WinterComing: They also have other producers, casting directors, costume designers, location scouts and Bryan Cogman to help them do all that.In any case, the fact that GRRM considers himself a “gardener” is the more important point. I interpret that as having a general idea of where the story is going and adding details along the way. When you’re producing a multi-million dollar production those details are important now because of the pre-production work.

    When he says he is a “gardener” he means he doesn’t know all the details NOW, but when the time comes to write about them he clearly spends more time thinking about it than the tv writers (Brian Cogman said he wrote his script in less than 2 weeks) and with far more knowledge than them (some of whom haven’t read the books) about the source material. Obviously.

  170. Barthes
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    john: Especially those goofs over at westeros.org. Get fucking laid, asap.

    Since my best friend, the only person I know who liked Dance of Dragons, doesn’t watch the show anymore after season one, I only know Game of Thrones through this site. Most of my comments here get deleted and I don’t expect this one to stay long. However I don’t blame these moderators too much so since I’m more of a book fan than a show fan and my sarcasm is probably offensive to them. I don’t know if I can agree with you that westeros.org people are goofs but maybe I should check it out.

  171. Josh
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Yeah I don’t enjoy reading Westeros. I just feel like they approach the show in such a negative way. Yes you enjoy the book more and yes you enjoyed the way the book did things more but this isn’t the book. Get over it. It’s going to need it’s own identity and it can’t do certain things the book did for both money and time constraints.

    I just don’t enjoy hearing fanboy rants…It’s just the same old song again and again set to a different tone.

  172. LV
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    The posts aimed against westeros.org (that is, Elio & Linda’s reviews) are childish.
    They state all the time that they love the novels (hell, they actually make money with this passion of theirs), review the series from a textual perspective, and never leave any doubt about what is important to them (the story as told in the novels). Their agenda is chrystal clear. If you are not interested in a textual analysis and critique of the television series, fine. But stop pretending to be offended by someone’s honest opinion. It’s ridiculous.

  173. Handmaiden of Dany
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    john,

    Yeah, but that didn’t work for Joffrey! LOL!

  174. Jeremy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    I’m glad to see some other viewers mention Myles McNutt. His analysis is among the most considered and intelligent available.

  175. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    LV,

    Dude, if Linda loves the novels so much, then why is it that she’s never even finished A Storm of Swords? …….I’ll wait…….

  176. Ed
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Very interesting theories Nagga!!! I dont’ necessarily agree with it all, but it’s certainly well thought out and fascinating.

    I actually think the note was written by Talisa (Jane). She IS a spy.

    Nagga’s Kin: IMHO, this is a bogus message that Tywin planted specifically to discover if his new cupbearer is a Northern spy. Silverhill isn’t anywhere near the coast.

    Arya herself is worried that Tywin will discover her true identity, but he’s been playing a different game all along:

    a) The reason it was Amory Lorch – a member of Tywin’s inner circle – who took Yoren’s prisoners is that the Gold Cloaks asked Tywin for assistance in the hunt for Gendry, Robert’s only remaining bastard child. Evidently, Tywin agreed to take care of it because there were no Gold Cloaks in Amory’s party. He would have reported the capture of the NW prisoners to Tywin, who rushed to shut down the Tickler’s little horror show before Gendry is killed. Tywin knew full well that a bastard has no claim on the throne anyhow, so he decided to put a stop to this particular madness of Joffrey’s.

    Ever pragmatic, Tywin also didn’t want to waste manpower in the middle of a war. A smith is a valuable resource. It’s unclear if Tywin realized that he was in fact Gendry the black-haired armorer’s apprentice, chances are he suspected as much.

    b) Surveying the prisoner pen, Tywin saw a young girl in boy’s clothing. Very unusual! When he asked her why she was in disguise, she answered that it was safer to travel that way. Her Northern accent immediately revealed to Tywin that she wasn’t from a village near Harrenhal. Also, the Night’s Watch doesn’t take girls, so why was she traveling with Yoren? Why was she traveling at all? Tywin smelled a rat and made her his cupbearer, determined to get to the bottom of this mystery.

    c) At he first meeting of his war council, he quickly exposed her as a liar when he asked about where she was really from. He also asked her what Northerners were now saying about Robb, to assess where her loyalties lay. The “Young Wolf” moniker and the tall tales about his invincibility are relatively new, so where did she hear about them? Also, she dismissed them, saying that “anyone can be killed” directly to Tywin’s face. Ok, so she’s fiercely loyal to the North. This Lannister keeps his friends close and his pint-sized enemies closer.

    d) Tywin now decided to find out if she was, in fact, a spy. Using an intelligent child for such work wasn’t unusual: he was Hand of the King for 20 years before Robert’s rebellion and knew of Varys’ little birds. Indeed, if his new cupbearer was spying, it might not even be for Robb. After all, Tyrion said Tywin hadn’t sent any ravens to KL in weeks.

    e) The first step was finding out if the cupbearer could read, so Tywin and Amory concocted a ruse about the latter inadvertently sending messages to the enemy because he couldn’t read or write. Seriously, would Tywin really permit an illiterate person who wasn’t a Lannister to be part of his war council?

    f) Next, Tywin planted the above bogus message on the table. Quizzing Arya who taught her to read, she answered that it was her father, a stonemason who was killed for his “loyalty”. How many Northern girls living in KL had lost their fathers for their loyalty? At this point, if not sooner, Tywin must have realized that she might in fact be Arya Stark. If so, his idiot grandson Joffrey had failed to keep her locked up.

    g) Next, he demonstratively set down with his back to the table and allowed the girl to change the subject. Would Tywin have left a message of genuine military value on the table for her to take a peek at and take when he asks her to go fetch something? Of course not!

    h) It was also no coincidence that the person who intercepted her was Amory. He was able to read the message quick smart! Not so smart, however, was his failure to seize the girl.

    j) Amory still held the message in his hand when he died, so Tywin now has proof positive that his cupbearer is indeed a military spy, probably for Robb Stark. Moreover, she or someone working with her assassinated Amory. Killing him didn’t protect Arya, it exposed her.

  177. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    purplejilly:
    Nagga’s Kin,
    Wow, that is a very cool idea!Bravo!

    Thx, but I credit the showrunners. The Tywin-Arya subplot was new even to book readers, so no-one knew what was coming next. I particularly liked that they managed to portray Tywin as a kind, charming, avuncular man in his dealings with Arya, even though he’s actually nothing of the sort.

    The writers have managed to get away with this propaganda because Tywin’s backstory wasn’t part of the TV show. It is however, on the Blu-Ray DVD extras.

    For a long time, the Lannisters were close allies with the Targaryens. Tywin was the Hand of Aerys II (the Mad King) for 20 years. However, Tywin’s offer of an arranged marriage between Crown Prince Rhaegar and Cersei was spurned in favor of one with Elia Martell of Dorne. For this and other differences with the king, he quit his job and returned to Casterly Rock. The only reason the king didn’t kill him is that he needed access to the Lannister’s money.

    During Robert’s rebellion, Tywin kept House Lannister neutral despite numerous pleas from the Targaryens. Only when it became clear that Robert would win did Tywin join the rebellion and sack King’s Landing. Among other atrocities, he had the Mountain rape Elia Martell and then murder her along with her children. The rape was revenge, but the extermination of the Targaryen family – except for the children who had been smuggled across the Narrow Sea – cemented Robert’s tenuous claim to the throne and allowed Tywin to coerce him into marrying Cersei.

    We didn’t see any of that in the TV show, which begins near the end of Robert’s rule. However, we did hear Maester Aemon talk about the massacre of the Targaryens with Jon. Tyrion alluded to it when he told Pycelle to arrange Myrcella’s marriage to Trystane Martell of Dorne, in spite of the bad blood the massacre had left between the Martells on the one hand and the Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Lannister alliance on the other (and Tywin Lannister in particular). Cersei’s anger toward Tyrion stems mostly from the fact that he arranged this behind her back, but also because he arranged with Doran Martell of all people. She fears Myrcella’s marriage will be just as loveless as her own to Robert.

  178. Ed
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    THIS!!! (great post!)

    Zack: Can’t you be like, thrilled to see 80% of awesome shit from the text, and then 20% new stuff that takes you, as a book reader, by surprise? I mean, if I knew nothing was going to surprise me, there wouldn’t be any strange deviations, that would make me a lot less interested in tuning in each week.

  179. LV
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    As far as I know, she never actually read Catelyn VII in A Storm of Swords. This is, as far as I’m concerned, understandable for someone who is very invested in a particular fictional character, even though I, personally, approach literature in a completely different way. Other than ASOS Catelyn VII, I am not aware of any ‘unfinished business’ on Linda’s side.

    And please, there are but a handful of active people around the web who know the novels and their background as well as Elio & Linda. Are you insinuating that their comparative analysis lacks some crucial textual insight because of Linda’s particular reluctance?
    I think not.

    All this does in no way mean, of course, that we cannot disagree with their critique of the television series. I do, to be sure, while also agreeing with some of their arguments. But to throw tantrums about another’s opinion is just childish.

  180. Pastor_of_Muppets
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    LV,

    Sure, those two may be incredibly familiar with the histories, the genealogies of the houses, etc., but reading their commentary on the show makes me wonder if maybe they’re missing the forest for the trees.

    Anway, ratings are out at TVbytheNumbers (won’t let me post a link for whatever reason).

  181. alfred e. frey
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    For now those who dare speaking true can be branded as trolls, but time come, only those will consider season 2 as great who still think the phantom menace and lost season 6 are awesome.
    Let´s face it they are really losing it, they screw up every opportunity to use cool stuff from the books. Even non-readers get bored with the endless repetition of certain themes (Joffrey, Dany) and confused about other stuff that lacks motivation.
    Tits and Gore we get, but we can have that in other shows that are better written.

  182. LV
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Pastor_of_Muppets,

    Well, I don’t share their (that is, Linda’s) textual essentialism as far as the television series is concerned. I disagree with some of their arguments but agree with others. I also think that there are passages in ASOIAF where Martin commits descriptive or narrative mistakes (the Dothraki culture, the culture of Slaver’s Bay, Cersei’s back story in AFFC, and so forth).
    But still, in their reviews westeros.org never criticise D&D’s changes just because they are changes. Reviewing the episodes from an expressly textual and comparative point of view and with a very faithful adaptation in mind is okay. You might not find it interesting, let alone agree with it, but that’s true of any written opinion, no?…

    By the way: Good ratings – they will only get better after Martin’s own “Blackwater” (with many changes, I’m sure) blows the internet away. ;)

  183. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Ed:

    I actually think the note was written by Talisa (Jane).She IS a spy.

    You mean a spy for Tywin? Hmm, not having read the books, I’d say it’s definitely possible. She claims to be a commoner from Volantis, a neutral and altruistic doctor taking care of the sick and the wounded in the distant Riverlands of Westeros. Robb’s right to be suspicious.

    However, consider the wording of this particular message:

    Marching ten thousand west to Lannisport _____
    the tooth. Estimate to reach you by week’s end. Sco___
    Robb Stark moving troops south by coast __ __ will ___
    turn east at Silverhill

    It’s written from the perspective of a Lannister bannerman or ally. Of course, it’s quite possible that the message is coded to look that way, after all ravens can be shot down. Fog of war and all that.

    However, I still doubt that Tywin would leave a genuine message from one of his own spies on the table like that and then turn his back to it. He’s questioned Arya multiple times, something he wouldn’t do if he fully trusted her. Why would he? A counterintelligence sting seems more plausible to me.

    Also note that earlier, Tywin clearly noticed how she tried to avoid showing Littlefinger her face. Who knows what was discussed after she was sent out of the room?

  184. Autumn ray
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    I really enjoy the io9 reviews. They’re a little late posting them but I always look forward to reading them. http://m.io9.com/5908366/game-of-thrones-week-6-you-cant-control-wild-creatures-and-you-cant-own-people

  185. fuelpagan
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Pau Soriano: When he says he is a “gardener” he means he doesn’t know all the details NOW, but when the time comes to write about them he clearly spends more time thinking about it than the tv writers (Brian Cogman said he wrote his script in less than 2 weeks) and with far more knowledge than them (some of whom haven’t read the books) about the source material. Obviously.

    True. But as a “gardener” GRRM will create the culture and characters to serve his story as he needs them to move the plot. That shouldn’t prevent D&D from making changes to these side items and do a little gardening of their own to serve their needs for the adaptation.

    Just because the script was written in a couple of weeks doesn’t mean that is all the work that went into creating the script. They spend a lot of time on the outline of the season so each writer knows to points their episode must cover. Then the scripts are written, reviewed and possibly rewritten until approved. And they still make changes as needed to serve the story, or perhaps budget reasons or time constraints.

    Do you have a link where Vanessa talks about not reading the books before writing the script? I would enjoy reading it.

  186. Leuf
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    However, I still doubt that Tywin would leave a genuine message from one of his own spies on the table like that and then turn his back to it. He’s questioned Arya multiple times, something he wouldn’t do if he fully trusted her. Why would he? A counterintelligence sting seems more plausible to me.

    It’s possible, but I don’t think so. The letter doesn’t really contain anything useful for a Northern spy. Robb’s own scouts would know what those 10,000 Lannister troops were doing because he’s right there, and Amory just sent Tywin’s troop movements to a Stark bannerman anyway. Tywin turns his back to it because there’s nothing really secret there. Would a real spy actually take the letter? That’s kind of a dumb move.

  187. Mimsy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: Nagga’s Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink
    Ed:

    I actually think the note was written by Talisa (Jane).She IS a spy.

    You mean a spy for Tywin? Hmm, not having read the books, I’d say it’s definitely possible. She claims to be a commoner from Volantis, a neutral and altruistic doctor taking care of the sick and the wounded in the distant Riverlands of Westeros. Robb’s right to be suspicious.

    Your conversation is very interesting. I wonder what Tywin’s expression (after Amory falls face first) means. It appears that Tywin is amused and I immediately thought he was thinking of Arya, which made me think exactly what you are thinking.

    But, I wonder if that “note” isn’t misleading information sent by the Stark camp to outwit Tywin’s army in the hopes of chalking up another victory. Maybe leaving the note on the table means that they aren’t taking it seriously and are calling the Stark’s bluff. I’m not sure what to think right now, but Tywin is up to something devious. Are the Frey’s supposed to be with Robb right now? Maybe the note came from them?

  188. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan: True. But as a “gardener” GRRM will create the culture and characters to serve his story as he needs them to move the plot. That shouldn’t prevent D&D from making changes to these side items and do a little gardening of their own to serve their needs for the adaptation.

    Just because the script was written in a couple of weeks doesn’t mean that is all the work that went into creating the script. They spend a lot of time on the outline of the season so each writer knows to points their episode must cover. Then the scripts are written, reviewed and possibly rewritten until approved. And they still make changes as needed to serve the story, or perhaps budget reasons or time constraints.

    Do you have a link where Vanessa talks about not reading the books before writing the script? I would enjoy reading it.

    First, I agree with you completely.I actually said something similar in the first post. Ofc they’re trying to do the best show possible, etc…but ofc they will do mistakes. And again, I’m sure they’re aware of they mistake much more than we’ll ever be. And again, Martin has been thinking about this characters for more than 20 years now and he is a very talented writer, so is normal than the solutions he found for whatever character arc we could discuss are well thought and normally work very well. Now the show writers have to redo all that thinking process to adapt that solution to a different media, and some solutions they find are great, but others not so much.

    I’m sure if the writers would have to write the first season again, they’d do many things differently. Because everybody learns. They’ve mentioned many times that the second pilot was much betteo than the first. Don’t you think if they had to do a third pilot now it wouold be even better?? Ofc it would.They themselves have said they’ve learned a lot after doing the first season, and they expect that shows on the second. All I’m trying to say, and I think you’re missing that when u qoited me, is that everybody makes mistakes, and that some changes are bound to be good, while some others are bound to be bad: complaining about the changes per se, is a silly as applauding all of them ;)

    And besides all that, theres the work of the directors. And the editors. That is a component of the end result that is rarely commented around here and that is very important. I didn’t like the last episode that much not for the changes, some of wich I like some of wich I don’t like, but for the “flow” of the episode. And I have no idea if that’s the fault of hte writer, the director, D&D or what I had to eat yesterday that maybe made me more crancky than usual ;)

    Regarding the last question, I already answere3d that, but allow me to quote myself

    Pau Soriano:
    Unless I’m very mistaken it was mentioned in a Thronecast interview (can’t remember wich one because I saw them, or rather listened to them while working, all in the same day). But could be also the Access Hollywood ones

    If I recall correctly they asked the actor (Dillane?, Van Houten? Dempsey?) if he/she had read ahead and then they talked about the pros and cons of that, an then they mentioned the writer didn’t do it and that in retrospective she thought that it was a mistake

    As I said, it was not her talking directly, but the journalist (I think it was a woman) and/or the actor/actress making a reference to the fact. But I’m not making it up ;)

  189. The DarkStar
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    LV: The posts aimed against westeros.org (that is, Elio & Linda’s reviews) are childish.
    They state all the time that they love the novels (hell, they actually make money with this passion of theirs)

    Clearly a lot of people are turned off by the negativity, that is a huge gathering cloud over at westeros. I don’t want to spend my time surrounding myself with negative people, nor do I want to spend my time on the internet reading clearly close minded, negative views. That isn’t childish, it’s how many feel. It’s frustrating seeing someone be so overly critical and nitpicky of everything, and if those frustrations turn into comments on a different Game of Thrones site, it just makes sense.

    I love the novels as well. I love them more than the show. I love them more than anything…But I am CAPABLE of loving the show as well and judging it on its own merits, something that Elio and Linda have shown they are INCAPABLE of doing.

  190. KG
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    And I hope everyone is proud of themselves for that sense of community and ASOIAF-love you have fostered.

    You’ve already chased away the Sci-Fi Christian guys from the show, and now you alienated Larry Williams. Keep it up, and you can cry in your beer “oh how could this be?” when the ratings drop.

  191. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    KG: And I hope everyone is proud of themselves for that sense of community and ASOIAF-love you have fostered.You’ve already chased away the Sci-Fi Christian guys from the show, and now you alienated Larry Williams. Keep it up, and you can cry in your beer “oh how could this be?” when the ratings drop.

    Who exactly are you talking to here? I seriously doubt the fan community posting here has that much influence. And we’re not even sure Larry’s been alienated, from what other people have said he hasn’t posted anything in over a week, this show or otherwise.

  192. Weirwood
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    And I hope everyone is proud of themselves for that sense of community and ASOIAF-love you have fostered.

    You’ve already chased away the Sci-Fi Christian guys from the show, and now you alienated Larry Williams. Keep it up, and you can cry in your beer “oh how could this be?” when the ratings drop.

    You know what they say about Assumptions…… and Larry Who?

  193. Pau Soriano
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: Who exactly are you talking to here? I seriously doubt the fan community posting here has that much influence. And we’re not even sure Larry’s been alienated, from what other people have said he hasn’t posted anything in over a week, this show or otherwise.

    Not to say thinking that the ratings will drop because of what people write here must be the funniest thing I read this week ;)

    Let’s just be all less touchy and just allow everyone to expess what they think freely without jumping at each others throats shall we? This is, after all, a free world (for the most part…)

  194. Mimsy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Readers were posting on Larry’s facebook and such. I never read his page, but from what posters brought over to the WIC threads, it looked pretty nasty. It’s a shame that people have a raging desire to retaliate against others opinions. I’ve seen it against regular reviewers on their websites.. on twitter.. youtube. It’s just terrible and I would think it ruins the fun for both parties.

  195. Jay Sutherland
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    I hope it wasn’t me who sparked off all the Westeros.org hate. I pointed out back there that I was surprised at how much they disliked episode 6, but that wasn’t me initiating a riot…. and then I come back and find loads of people ripping in to the site!
    For the record, I love Westeros.org and also love to read their views on the episodes, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. The variance of opinions is what makes the series, and the discussion of it, so fascinating.

  196. smackless headlarft
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    The DarkStar: It’s frustrating seeing someone be so overly critical and nitpicky of everything, and if those frustrations turn into comments on a different Game of Thrones site, it just makes sense.

    Is it frustrating? I wouldn’t know because I only come on this site and people are never overly critical and nitpicky of everything here. Especially after the hordes of anons come and gloss over the show. God, could you imagine having to use registered usernames to post here? I think people would stop being polite and start gettin real.

  197. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: Your conversation is very interesting.I wonder what Tywin’s expression (after Amory falls face first) means.It appears that Tywin is amused and I immediately thought he was thinking of Arya, which made me think exactly what you are thinking.

    But, I wonder if that “note” isn’t misleading information sent by the Stark camp to outwit Tywin’s army in the hopes of chalking up another victory.Maybe leaving the note on the table means that they aren’t taking it seriously and are calling the Stark’s bluff.I’m not sure what to think right now, but Tywin is up to something devious.Are the Frey’s supposed to be with Robb right now?Maybe the note came from them?

    Tywin may be not have much of a sense of humor, but Charles Dance certainly does (warning: what is seen cannot be unseen). Maybe even he couldn’t keep a straight face any longer after the umpteenth take of Fintan McKeown popping in.

    IMHO, Tywin had the message written up. However, it is worded such that if a Northern spy did manage to send it to Robb, it just might trick him into thinking Tywin was splitting his forces again. That might tempt him to attack Harrenhal, only to be beaten back by a much larger army than he bargained for.

    Would Robb take the bait if he ever got the message? Probably not, but misinformation is cheap to produce and an expensive threat to deal with (coding/decoding overhead, reliable transmission paths incl. human couriers, time-consuming confirmation procedures etc.).

    It’s very likely that each side would have tried to misinform the other multiple times in this war. We saw an instance of it when Robb allowed a Lannister spy to return Tywin with incorrect information about his troop strength, prompting Tywin to split his army and allowing Robb to defeat the fraction led by Jaime.

    I suppose it’s possible that Tywin actually intended to catch Arya red-handed and to also misinform Robb. In that case, Amory Lorch might in fact have been out of the loop after hamming it up with his supposedly poor reading skills. Maybe Tywin didn’t mean for him to intercept Arya, it just happened by accident. That might explain his failure to seize the girl, but it doesn’t excuse it.

    Some commenters have suggested that was simply poor writing to give Arya a chance to make death wish #2, but military officers do sometimes make boneheaded mistakes that usually cost lives, occasionally their own. Perhaps Vanessa Taylor just wanted to show that.

  198. Weirwood
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Jay Sutherland,

    Don’t take it personally, some on the internet seem to like to chastise others a little to harshly for stating an opinion. IMO just because they see themselves as THE Voice of reason does NOT mean that we have to as well.

  199. chavalah
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Syrio: I think some of you are defending the show a little too vehemently as though any criticism is a sign of being “purist”.

    I don’t agree with everything westeros.org said about the episode. But the part about the 2nd kill of Jaquen being played for comedic effect is spot on.

    Jaquen is supposed to by mysterious, scary, and a bit creepy. His entire arc in ACOK was supposed to be some kind of parallel for Melisandre. They are both foreign, mysterious, charismatic, but also seems to be able to kill people with very dark and mysterious means.

    Biter and Rorge, two psychotic killers, were terrified of Jaquen. The reader, the audience, are supposed be glad for Arya to have this power, but at the same time a little scared for Arya, in a what kind of Faustian bargain has Arya gotten herself into kind of way.

    The way the show does it is turned Jaquen into a murder genie, and not in a Monkey’s Paw kind of way, but a I Dream of Genie kind of way. That to me is a change that serves Arya’s story very poorly.

    Just adding my “+1″ to this. I’m not sure where I fall on the “purist” pendulum–I’m more concerned about character changes, like Robb stealing Catelyn’s lines, rather than plot or “worldbuilding” changes like what’s happening in Qarth. I also don’t like how Arya’s storyline has been handled this episode; I can deal with Lorch’s death being comedic, but when it comes to Arya as a character I want to showcase that she’s in the horrible environment from the books, which further leads her down her overall path. I don’t want her time at Harrenhal to come off as slapstick, where she can easily get out of every scrape and Tywin is her number one fanboy. I like the book, where she was constantly under the threat of violence from cruel taskmasters, and she had to learn how to navigate a much darker world. That makes for a far richer, more complex character.

    We all obviously come to the show with different desires and expectations–some of us want more immediate excitement and less deep thought, others like the serious analysis of the human issues GRRM and D&D have stirred up. Maybe even some of us are in between the two. So kumbaya? :P

  200. Mimsy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin,

    Tywin may be not have much of a sense of humor, but Charles Dance certainly does (warning: what is seen cannot be unseen). Maybe even he couldn’t keep a straight face any longer after the umpteenth take of Fintan McKeown popping in.

    HA! I love it! Charles Dance and his facial expressions are full of win. I enjoyed that scene for what it was.. humorous. :)

    What would Tywin do if he was setting up a trap for Arya and he caught her red handed? Would he love her even more? lol Whatever is happening with Arya, I’m sure she’s going to get away in the nick of time. Tywin has a battle to get to and the Boltons are coming! No time for intrigue.

  201. Syrio
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and you know that televisionwithoutpity newbie thread?

    There are a bunch of them complained about the silliness of Arya running around Harrenhal with that note she just stole in her hands for everyone to see.

    Those *purists*. /eyeroll

  202. KG
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    Jay Sutherland,

    There are differences of opinion, and then there is “kinda pathetic.” The hate pouring out of the posters lately is staggering to behold, and extremely off-putting – and I am a pre-TV show fan.

    If I were a new fan of the show and stumbled upon the sort of “fans” that have come out of the woodwork, I would leave and never look back. And how can that help any of us?

  203. Spork
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Nimble Dick,

    Yeah, finals are what I was thinking too. He is a student, right?

  204. Jay Sutherland
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Cool. We’re in agreement I think.

  205. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Syrio: Oh, and you know that televisionwithoutpity newbie thread?There are a bunch of them complained about the silliness of Arya running around Harrenhal with that note she just stole in her hands for everyone to see.Those *purists*. /eyeroll

    They also complained heavily about the “smoke monster”, which was lifted straight from the books. And they’ve also complained about Arya wasting her death wishes, which was even more egregious in the books. Just accept that there are going to be plot holes (or at least perceived ones) no matter how close or far they hew to the text.

  206. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy:
    Nagga’s Kin,

    What would Tywin do if he was setting up a trap for Arya and he caught her red handed? Would he love her even more? lol

    Unless he figured out or was told that his cupbearer really is Arya Stark, he’d give her the same punishment as any other spy: death. Book readers would have a massive hissy fit if the TV show actually went that route, but the irony of executing Arya would be bitter indeed: she’s one of just two weak bargaining chips in the Lannister’s bid to free the captured Jaime.

    Make no mistake: Tywin doesn’t love his cupbearer, because you can’t really love someone you don’t trust. However, he is impressed with her poise and intelligence, something his own grandson Joffrey sorely lacks. He can’t let her get away with spying, but a professional soldier recognizes and respects a worthy opponent. Everything else is an act, integral to the counterintelligence strategy.

    For her part, Arya respects that Tywin freakin’ Lannister is using his wits rather than torture to figure her out. She perceives him as the enemy, but not one who deserves to be on her list (yet).

    Charles Dance is so good he can act a character putting on an act to expose that Maisie Williams’s character is putting on an act of her own! She’s working hard to get the better of him and he is awed by that, given the asymmetry of their positions! Their interactions are so brilliant because they occur on three levels concurrently.

    In the end, I suspect there will be some event that forces Tywin to delay dealing with his cupbearer, giving her time to escape Harrenhal. She will later regret having wasted death wishes on bit players like the Tickler and Amory Lorch. He will regret not having executed the child spy he had worked so hard to expose and later, regret failing to recapture Arya frickin’ Stark because both Cersei and Tyrion were too afraid of him to tell him she’d escaped from the Red Keep.

  207. Mimsy
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Nagga’s Kin: Unless he figured out or was told that his cupbearer really is Arya Stark, he’d give her the same punishment as any other spy: death.

    I don’t know if Tywin would put a kid to death for being on the wrong side and she’s still a bargaining chip for Jaime. I like to think Tywin is more like Tyrion in his thinking and keeping his important war hostages safe and sound. I don’t know what he would do when it came to releasing the Stark girls if he had it in his power, but I don’t think it would be a straight swap.

    I think it would be a stretch to think Arya can get any information out of Harrenhal. They seem to be on lockdown and she definitely doesn’t have access to the birds. This makes me think that should she be caught as a “spy,” it would be more amusement than anything.

    For her part, Arya respects that Tywin freakin’ Lannister is using his wits rather than torture to figure her out. She perceives him as the enemy, but not one who deserves to be on her list (yet).

    Tywin is definitely playing a battle of wits with Arya and she’s sidestepping him like she did Syrio, which is great fun to watch.

    She will later regret having wasted death wishes on bit players like the Tickler and Amory Lorch.

    Hindsight is 20/20 and she at the very least needed to get rid of Amory for her immediate protection. I got a sense that she needed to repay the debt sooner rather than later so her thinking is in the immediate area even though Joffrey would definitely be her #1 hit. There are simply too many people who need killing in GOT.

  208. Knurk
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    I’m an avid hater of Westeros.org , my main problem with that site is the utter lack of freedom of speech and random banning of users, but I have no problems with their reviews at all (though I’ve only read one or two of them in season 1, they’re not for me). As this thread proves there are people who do appreciate their reviews so that makes them automatically warranted in my eyes. What I do mind is their (Linda’s) condescending tone towards people who DO enjoy the tv-show and the scenes they hate (this is just one example of many similar tweets):

    People seem blinded by the few strong scenes and just fail to notice the issues. And action really sells, I guess.

    Yeah, I guess we are really blinded and just want to see non-stop action, jesus christ. Could she be more condescending? It’s the same bullshit “People who hate ADWD have a severe lack of reading skills” argument she came up with.

  209. KG
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Knurk,

    She’s the prototypical big fish in a small pond. Let her rant away to the groveling faithful; who cares?

  210. Knurk
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    I know, but I wanted to point out that although they seem to write reviews with good points from hardcore-book-purists, they actually can’t seem to grasp that there are people who do appreciate the changes or think the people who enjoy them are stupid for doing so. Looking it at that way makes their reviews very amateurish.

  211. LV
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    : And they’ve also complained about Arya wasting her death wishes, which was even more egregious in the books. Just accept that there are going to be plot holes (or at least perceived ones) no matter how close or far they hew to the text.

    The important word is “perceived”. Arya not ordering the murder of Tywin or any other ‘big fish’ is not a plot hole but a feature of her personality. People who complain about her decision lacking strategic merit argue from a point of view that eschews the characters’ psychology for their own wish fulfillment in terms of badassdom or whatever else they want to read about.

  212. Shadowcat85
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Don’t know if he’ll continue to do recaps but Oliver Lyttelton at The Playlist did a write up on episodes 5 and 6. Guessing he’s a non-reader based on his comments but it was a sharp critique.

    http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/recap-game-of-thrones-episodes-5-6-sees-season-two-somehow-get-bloodier-grimmer-20120508

    Still uncomfortable from the Sansa-riot scene. It was executed so well, and I hope there is more to come from Sophie (who continues to impress me with the little she’s had this season) and Rory.

  213. Nagga's Kin
    Posted May 8, 2012 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    Mimsy: I don’t know if Tywin would put a kid to death for being on the wrong side

    At the end of Robert’s rebellion, Tywin order the Mountain to murder Rhaegar Targaryen’s children. He doesn’t kill children without what he perceives as good reason, but he does kill them. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    It’s possible he would make do with imprisoning a child spy, but in this case I believe he’s made a big deal out of it in front of his war council. Moreover, Amory Lorch was just assassinated with a poison dart and Tywin knows she had something to do with it. Playing games with bogus messages is one thing, murder is quite another.

    Showing mercy would make Tywin look weak in the eyes of his bannermen, though he might defer execution until he was satisfied she either acted alone or she’s given him all the actionable intel about accomplices he’s ever going to get.

    and she’s still a bargaining chip for Jaime.I like to think Tywin is more like Tyrion in his thinking and keeping his important war hostages safe and sound.

    You and I know that cupbearer is in fact Arya Stark pretending to be someone else. However, at this point in the story, Tywin does NOT know who she really is. I agree, though, that if he found out in time, he absolutely would keep her safe and sound and forget about her espionage, even her murder. And there would be more kingslapping plus sanctions for Cersei and Tyrion, possibly the small council because none of them told Tywin that Arya had escaped from the Red Keep. Well, perhaps LF did mention it to comply with Cersei’s order and avoid getting caught up in the Lannister family shitstorm of 299AL.

    I don’t know what he would do when it came to releasing the Stark girls if he had it in his power, but I don’t think it would be a straight swap.

    I’m not sure I follow you. Robb’s already turned down an offer to trade both of his sisters for Jaime. His bannermen expect him to trade Jaime, a member of the Kingsguard, for autonomy for the North and the Riverlands, if not outright secession from the realm. Westeros is a misogynistic place where the value of a highborn girl is measured on the market for arranged marriages, preferably to a boys or man of equal or higher status.

    I think it would be a stretch to think Arya can get any information out of Harrenhal.They seem to be on lockdown and she definitely doesn’t have access to the birds.This makes me think that should she be caught as a “spy,” it would be more amusement than anything

    Varys’ little birds manage to get information past security guards all the time, without access to ravens. Granted, he trains them first but Arya’s resourceful – she knows how to finding a hiding place quickly (dragon skull in the tunnels under the Red Keep) and how to exploit a chaotic situation (escaping from KL while the Lannisters were sacking it) . Harrenhal is a vast ruins, full of nooks and crannies and carts. It would be difficult for Tywin to lock down in a hurry.

    Never bet against Arya Stark. You and I have known this for some time now. Tywin now knows it too, even before he’s identified her.

    There are simply too many people who need killing in GOT.

    And yet, they keep casting new ones ;^)

  214. The DarkStar
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    So that terrible, inexcusable, rediculous scene that took people out of the show cause it didn’t make any sense, I think I’ve made sense of.
    Arya is a little, low born slave, inside a lions den. Where can she go? She can’t leave. They displayed how Lorch is not a cunning person, not the sharpest tack. I would think he would want to catch her himself (pride), smack her around a bit, and take her to Tywin to prove his worth. It’s not like her getting away is even an option, and I bet her having a secret ninja assassin on her side didn’t cross his mind. Lorch is a doer, not a thinker.
    Scene was fine.

  215. LV
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Yoshi: I honestly think you’re an idiot. By your standard, you are forbidden to be offended by my opinion.

    Exactly. And how could I be offended by an unlettered clown who posts one-sentence-drivel void of any notable opinion, expression of feeling, intelligence, let alone argument?
    Go figure.

  216. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    I was avoiding the subject of westeros.org over here lately, because I was quite a bit confused by their (Linda s – attitude) towards the fandom.
    Truth to be told I was not expected so rude, harsh and most notably elitist beahviour by people who did so much for the ASOIAF realted content on the web.
    Yes, I am very thankful for that.

    I am not talking about their reviews or opinion on the show – they have right to think whatever they want.
    I am not even talking about her “wars” on tumblr or elsewhere – beacuse, also truth to be to told, the opponent side is not better either.
    And if attacked, Linda has the right to defend herself. I would not, I am just such a person, I think that ignoring the brutes is much better way to handle it.

    I am not talking about the accusations of racism and mysogyny towards her – beacuse it is ridicoulous. She is not racist, nor misogynist.

    But lately, most notably after the last episode – I was really strucked by the statements like: “..the people who enjoy the show do not know what they are talking about..”, “..If anyone thinks that is true to the spirit of the books, I question their reading of the books ..” etc..

    I do not think that this is the way for someone who in some way represent the fandom should speak.

    I mean, maybe the girls and guys on winteriscoming.net “do not understand the books” but they are way more professional.

  217. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    LV: The important word is “perceived”. Arya not ordering the murder of Tywin or any other ‘big fish’ is not a plot hole but a feature of her personality. People who complain about her decision lacking strategic merit argue from a point of view that eschews the characters’ psychology for their own wish fulfillment in terms of badassdom or whatever else they want to read about.

    So you think it’s conceivable that an aged-up Arya would behave the way on this issue that she does in the books? It was borderline in the books that somebody as savvy and resourceful as her wouldn’t ponder this issue a little more rationally, despite her age (10 in the books?) or “character’s psychology”. For a savvy 12-year-old (which I think she is in the show) it’s even less likely or believable. I’m guessing a lot of newbie viewers will be pissed at the final name even if it plays out exactly as it does in the text.

  218. KG
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:09 am | Permalink

    Re: Westeros.org

    I get the feeling that she was a no-one-in-particular person who enjoyed being The Be-All End-All of the comparatively tiny world of ASoIaF fandom. And one day, she woke up to find that the fanbase had expanded, the internet had exploded with new sites, and she and her site just aren’t as important as they used to be.

    Doubtless this would hurt anyone in that same position, but she needs to let it go and move with the times. Playing the prom queen isn’t going to work anymore; in fact, all she is going to do is pull a Cersei and turn everyone against the show – AND the books.

    But maybe that’s her plan. She can go back to being the boss again, then.

  219. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:16 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson,

    Why would she want Tywin dead at the moment? The man saved her and Gendry from being tortured and is, right now, the only thing that’s keeping her from being killed. What do you think would happen if Jaqen kills him? She’ll probably get raped and killed by whoever is left. There would be no one in charge at Harrenhal to “take her under his wing”.

    Even if she hates the man, I think it’s pretty clever for her to keep him alive for now. She needs to survive afterall. Tywin dying would be a big blow to the Lannisters but wouldn’t necessarily win the war for the Starks.

  220. Hi-Fi
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:23 am | Permalink

    LV:
    The posts aimed against westeros.org (that is, Elio & Linda’s reviews) are childish.
    They state all the time that they love the novels (hell, they actually make money with this passion of theirs), review the series from a textual perspective, and never leave any doubt about what is important to them (the story as told in the novels). Their agenda is chrystal clear. If you are not interested in a textual analysis and critique of the television series, fine. But stop pretending to be offended by someone’s honest opinion. It’s ridiculous.

    Why are they childish? Westeros.org post their reviews online to be read by everybody. They post videos online talking about the episodes, even! If they have the right to post their “critique”, we sure as hell have the right to dislike and criticize it. I’m certainly interested in a REAL critique of the television series. What they do is something else.

  221. LV
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    Hi-Fi,

    I was referring to the offended-sounding posts aimed against westeros.org. Sorry, if I failed to make that clear. As I said, I don’t agree with parts of their critique and Linda’s originalism. Of course, it is perfectly okay to argue against their positions. But many posts here betray a personal nature of their writers’ motives and people who are offended or outraged by some particular reviews they don’t agree with are, I believe, childish.

  222. LV
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: So you think it’s conceivable that an aged-up Arya would behave the way on this issue that she does in the books? It was borderline in the books that somebody as savvy and resourceful as her wouldn’t ponder this issue a little more rationally, despite her age (10 in the books?) or “character’s psychology”. For a savvy 12-year-old (which I think she is in the show) it’s even less likely or believable. I’m guessing a lot of newbie viewers will be pissed at the final name even if it plays out exactly as it does in the text.

    Arya’s age is not the only issue. In the novels she is about ten years old, relatively educated and of considerable cleverness. But she is not a strategic mastermind nor does she have a clue about the political or military situation. Her own schemes (weasel soup, gold coin, aso) deal with immediate problems and are of a very practical nature. Furthermore, she is vengeful, impulsive and, at times, cruel. Her behavior in ACOK as well as ASOS is mostly in sync with her established personality. Tywin (whom she never gets to know in the novels) is not part of her death prayer. Why? Because Arya is rather short-sighted, which is understandable given her character, knowledge and circumstances. The people she wants to die are those who personally wronged her or her family. Her revenge is not informed by strategic deliberation but by personal experience and rage.

  223. LV
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    And she only realises her own short-sightedness after Tywin has already left Harrenhal. Her first two names were squandered, strategically. The first one came from her sense of justice as well as revenge, the second from pure, petty vengefulness. It is only afterwards that she realises her ‘mistakes’ and changes somewhat as a character.

  224. Hear Me Roar
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Winter Is Coming: Not everyone got the screeners for these last two eps. Even less will be receiving screeners for the final four eps.

    Even fewer! ;) :D

  225. Winter Is Coming
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Hear Me Roar: Even fewer! ;) :D

    Ack! Stannis would not be pleased.

  226. Sir Pounce
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    LV,

    Other factors aside, theirs is one of the ugliest sites around. It looks like it fell out of 1998 and is barely readable. Someone over there need to hire a web designer.

  227. Sirin
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Another movie blog, Twitch.net is also reviewing Game of Thrones episodes every week. Here’s the 6th episode review.

    Interestinly for me; they think Littlefinger recognized Arya and did nothing about it (which I’m not sure I agree).

    My favorite bit in the beginning:

    It took sixteen episodes but someone finally did the sensible thing on Game Of Thrones and threw a big pile of shit into Joffrey’s face. And, yes, that was rather satisfying, but more on that in a moment.

  228. PatD
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Other factors aside, theirs is one of the ugliest sites around. It looks like it fell out of 1998 and is barely readable. Someone over there need to hire a web designer.

    Seriously. It looks like something out of the 1990′s GeoCities (for any of those who remember that far back). The content is rich, but the site is fugly.

    I get the feeling that she was a no-one-in-particular person who enjoyed being The Be-All End-All of the comparatively tiny world of ASoIaF fandom. And one day, she woke up to find that the fanbase had expanded, the internet had exploded with new sites, and she and her site just aren’t as important as they used to be

    I think there might be a bit of resentment that they weren’t officially hired as consultants for the show.

    All that aside, every time I read about their pans of the show, I want to say to them, “Hey, when you two raise a bazillion dollars, spend months and months away from your loved ones and homes, work like the devil to develop the connections and skills required to deal with the mammoth day-to-day headaches of a project of this magnitude, secure the rights, make the pitch to the big honchos, enlist the most respected pay-for-cable network as host, and find and hire some of the best movie artisans in the business, then you two can make the TV show of your dreams.”

    Until then, critique with temperance and something just a bit akin to understanding the difference between mediums.

    Or just stick to being a book site.

  229. KG
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    PatD,

    All it lacks is a couple of rotating skulls and a flashing”under construction” sign.

  230. Ed
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    ROTFLMAO!!! I am crying over here!!!

    KG:
    PatD,

    All it lacks is a couple of rotating skulls and a flashing”under construction” sign.

  231. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    PatD: All that aside, every time I read about their pans of the show, I want to say to them, “Hey, when you two raise a bazillion dollars, spend months and months away from your loved ones and homes, work like the devil to develop the connections and skills required to deal with the mammoth day-to-day headaches of a project of this magnitude, secure the rights, make the pitch to the big honchos, enlist the most respected pay-for-cable network as host, and find and hire some of the best movie artisans in the business, then you two can make the TV show of your dreams.”
    Until then, critique with temperance and something just a bit akin to understanding the difference between mediums.

    Full of win.

  232. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    LV: Arya’s age is not the only issue. In the novels she is about ten years old, relatively educated and of considerable cleverness. But she is not a strategic mastermind nor does she have a clue about the political or military situation. Her own schemes (weasel soup, gold coin, aso) deal with immediate problems and are of a very practical nature. Furthermore, she is vengeful, impulsive and, at times, cruel. Her behavior in ACOK as well as ASOS is mostly in sync with her established personality. Tywin (whom she never gets to know in the novels) is not part of her death prayer. Why? Because Arya is rather short-sighted, which is understandable given her character, knowledge and circumstances. The people she wants to die are those who personally wronged her or her family. Her revenge is not informed by strategic deliberation but by personal experience and rage.

    I know all that, I’m saying even a 10-year-old has the ability to think a little more strategically than that (I have a 10-year-old kid myself so am around quite a few, and they’re not dumbasses). And yes, I acknowledge her actions arise out of her character so I give GRRM the benefit of the doubt in this case, but in the show it would be almost inconceivable that an older child would squander her death wishes in the same way.

  233. Lex
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    KG:
    Re: Westeros.org

    I get the feeling that she was a no-one-in-particular person who enjoyed being The Be-All End-All of the comparatively tiny world of ASoIaF fandom.And one day, she woke up to find that the fanbase had expanded, the internet had exploded with new sites, and she and her site just aren’t as important as they used to be.

    I think you’ve nailed it. That would have been a shock, for anyone. It’s kind of the whole hipster-mentality (I liked this before it was cool!). It’s particularly obvious on the tumblr site, where she outright attacks new fans of the show, insulting their intelligence and calling them nasty names.

    In fact, I remember when WiC first started this very site, and although Westeros was kind enough to provide a link, there were a few puzzled ocmments along the lines of “Why would you start a new site? We are the go-to place for ASOIAF.”

    Anyways, it’s a shame because I’ve always really respected their knowledge of the series (especially Elio’s), but this is ongoing drama is starting to get noticed, and will not do them any favours.

  234. Lex
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    The_Rabbit01:

    I mean, maybe the girls and guys on winteriscoming.net “do not understand the books” but they are way more professional.

    Well said. WiC/Phil runs this place in a more professional way than almost any other forum or blog I’ve ever been a part of.

  235. Steven Swanson
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Lex: Well said. WiC/Phil runs this place in a more professional way than almost any other forum or blog I’ve ever been a part of.

    The thing I most appreciate is that he has a very light touch, the moderating is loose but there when necessary, and the site is very obviously about the show and not the person who started/runs the website.

  236. fuelpagan
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: The thing I most appreciate is that he has a very light touch, the moderating is loose but there when necessary, and the site is very obviously about the show and not the person who started/runs the website.

    So true. That’s was pure poetry.

  237. Jonathan
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    are you going to add larry here later when he finally gives his review?

  238. G_Lee
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: The thing I most appreciate is that he has a very light touch, the moderating is loose but there when necessary, and the site is very obviously about the show and not the person who started/runs the website.

    Absolutely. Even though I would totally follow a WiC-worshipper-cult sort of thing. This blog is just brilliant in so many ways! I’ll go to westeros.org to discuss the Winds of Winter when it comes out but apart from that WiC.net is my SoIaF-home.
    Unlike many of the purists I like that the fact that we have a very diverse community. People who’ve read the books 100 times, people who’ve read the books once, people who’ve never read the books, people who’ve just finished reading book 1…. you name it, we have it!

  239. The Rabbit
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, this site is pure joy – saying that without the flattery.
    Positive in some very loose way.
    I would say it is 75% due to the clever and mature moderation and 25% to the commenters.
    Of course, trolls sometimes visit us, but if they are not too annoying they could be amusing :D
    Nice place on the internet to be in.

  240. Del
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Jonathan,

    Something seems to be up with Larry outside of his reviews, I don’t know what. There’s been zero activity on his end in about 5 days now, even not counting Game of Thrones. Nothing on Facebook, no YouTube activity at all (even commenting or liking), nothing on Twitter.

  241. Knurk
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Steven Swanson: The thing I most appreciate is that he has a very light touch, the moderating is loose but there when necessary, and the site is very obviously about the show and not the person who started/runs the website.

    this. Also, this website doesn’t alienate other parts of the fanbase. Instead of trying to get IsWinterComing.com offline like Linda did, WinterIsComing/Phil is simply a member there. Instead of going on crazy rants on Tumblr, WinterIsComing/Phil/SueThePirate participates in a positive way on Tumblr.

  242. Lex
    Posted May 9, 2012 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Yikes. Some new posts on her tumblr. It’s like watching a train wreck; I can’t look away. It’s starting to sound like she has Tourette’s, tbh. So much swearing and name calling. It really undermines whatever argument she may have had.

  243. zzzz
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    I just saw on Twitter that Westeros.org admitted they’d rather have had a 100% faithful show that got cancelled after one or two seasons, rather than a popular and successful adaptation that stays on the air for years to come.

    What a bunch of hipster cunts.

  244. Mrs. H'ghar
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    zzzz: What a bunch of hipster cunts.

    Bronn? Is that you?

  245. Weirwood
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    I don’t know why so many people think Dany’s khalasar are dead, those were XXD’s servants shown slain (Other than Irri of course).

    And the person carrying the dragons is shown wearing the same shoes as the Spice King’s servants (unless that is a popular look in Qarth- but XXD’s servants wear boots similar to his, so I think the wardrobe is a bit of a tell).

    I still think Doreah was able to save Drogon (since Dany told her in a bit of foreshadowing last week “He loves You”) but the other two (whose tails we see hanging from the cage) were snatched by the “tardy for the party” Spice King, who will let the Warlocks at the HotU take the fall.

    And Dany will take what is hers “with fire and blood”. Only at the wrong house :( Oops!

    Just my guess on what is to come…..

  246. Meg
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    In case no one has mentioned it, Andy Greenwald is posting some pretty good stuff over on Grantland. FYI.

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/49005/game-of-thrones-season-2-episode-6-the-old-gods-and-the-new

  247. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    It’s sad really. I would say by the end of the season all of the Faithful to the Book Die Hards will be at Westeros with Linda, stewing in their bitterness whilst many of us enjoy the adaptation and still revere the original text.

    It’s a shame. The Tower of the Hand has always been a great read, very thought provoking but it will soon be part of a website that will only matter to the Purist crowd. I am personally waiting for Linda to write some diatribe to HBO or David and Dan and let it all out. Or at least she may decline appearing on Thronescast next season.

    To be honest I sort of feel sorry for her. I am certain when she heard HBO was adapting this series that she was ecstatic. It’s clear that she is severely disappointed with the outcome, especially someone who has practically devoted her life to ASOIAF. To have the best chance of seeing her beloved text unfold on screen and to have it fail so terribly to her (not to me) could explain a lot of the rage and why she is lashing out at new fans who simply cannot appreciate her work and her passion for the story. She may cool down eventually, dispense with the soapbox schtick and carry on. But I doubt that.

  248. Lex
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    The angry purists have lost perspective. Very, very few books are ever lucky enough to get an adaptation this faithful. Just look at Legend of the Seeker (Sword of Truth), the most recent adaptation of a big fantasy series. It could have been so, so, so much worse. That’s not to say this adaptation is without flaws… but I honestly believe that the angry purists who are spewing their outrage all over the internet have lost their sense of perspective, maybe even lost touch with reality.

  249. Joshua Taylor
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 2:57 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    It’s mystifying to me because when I watch Game of Thrones I don’t see the flaws (despite obvious instances of writing, direction and editing flubs ) I see King’s Landing brought to life by beautiful Dubrovnik. I see great actors like Maisie Williams and Charles Dance going head to head. I see Stephen Dillane barely concealing the subtext that is just burning in his eyes and under his skin. I hear Djawadi’s thrumming score, I relish at the red robes of Melisandre and her ruby red choker, the lannister lion on Cersei’s red robes. The flitting, cavalier machiavellian rogue that is Littlefinger. I yearn to hear Conleth Hill’s Varys ooze out his next intrigue. I see the frozen, desolate beauty of the North. I cry for Ser Rodrik’s noble, defiant end, I pity Theon Greyjoy, I live vicariously through Jon Snow as he lies next to Ygritte.

    All of the above=Mission accomplished show. You have brought A Song of Ice and Fire to life. Yes you will deviate from the plot back and forth, but so far you seem to be hitting just the right notes. You even let us know that Bolton will have a bastard. May the Seven bless you for that.

    I am sure there will be die hard Purists that will remain defiant to the end. But eventually some of the whiners will resign themselves to the series. As you said, it’s no Legend of the Seeker.

  250. The_Rabbit01
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 3:11 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Joshua Taylor,

    Yeah, agreed with you both.
    It seems the glass is always half full for you, as for me.
    It is just matter of perspective really. Nothing else.

  251. G_Lee
    Posted May 10, 2012 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Joshua Taylor,

    You, Sir, are a true poet!

  252. ...
    Posted May 14, 2012 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    I think that Dagmer is Ramsay. Which is kind of awesome. Look at his expression at the end of the episode where he looks at the kids’ bodies.

    Well played, D&D, well played.

  253. Orp
    Posted May 20, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    If Ros turns up in Winterfell in her distress while LF is away and throws herself at Theon who ‘didn’t want to pay for it’ instead of being the prostitute that Cersei kidnaps then you know for definite that Dagmer is Ramsay and he’s gonna ‘ave ‘er. Even if she doesn’t the chance is high. The actors playing Dagmer/highly possible Ramsay (Ineson) and Roose(McElhatton) look alike and are playing the roles similar.They’ve just got rid of the reek plot line cause it’s too much to explain and wouldn’t come across well told in retrospect (the abductions and why he ended up in that jail as Reek.) They’ve built up the ‘bastard’ coming to get Theon and they will reveal him as a sadist and sneak enjoying seeing how far Theon would go, just as Ramsay should be revealed. All they have to explain is that he was sent by his father to tail Theon’s journey to the Iron Islands. They can keep Ramsay as a renegade dark bastard in opposition to the idea of the ideal bastard in Jon Snow and this way they can keep the Roose betrayal extra specially shocking at the RW. Despite the fact that they are looking for a cast a 20-30 year old with an unusual look, I think this is highly likely.
    BTW the people that are saying that the actor playing Ramsay is older than the actor Roose are almost certainly confusing the age of Michael McElhatton (37) the footballer with the age of the actor Michael McElhatton playing Roose. The guy playing Roose could easily pass for 50′s and the guy playing Ramsay could pass for 30′s.

  254. anchor tekst
    Posted April 6, 2013 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    If you want to improve your familiarity only keep visiting this web site and be updated with the newest gossip posted here.

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