George R.R. Martin responds to fan’s concern over Jaime and Cersei’s scene in “Breaker of Chains”
By Lightbringer on in General.

There has been a lot of discussion across the web (and the WiC comment section) about the changes made to Jaime and Cersei’s sex scene in last night’s episode, when compared to the original writings of George R.R. Martin.

Today, in the comment section of his blog, Martin directly answered a fan’s concern about those changes.

GRRM:

“I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.”

Many thanks to TieDomi for the tip.


331 Comments

  1. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Eddard stark

  2. fuelpagan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Pretty much what I stated in the other thread.

  3. Sean C.
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Neatly disavowing all knowledge of the scene.

  4. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    “Minions! It’s happened, just like you said it would every week for the last four years on the internet! They’ve shat over everything! All of it! The fruits of untold decades of dedication have gone up in flames! Go forth and avenge me! Avenge me with fire and blood, and a Wall of text! LOOOOUD NOISES! Book loyalists, you fairest of fans, you are my only hope!” -GRRM

    Yeah, it didn’t come off that way to me either.

  5. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    They screwed up the scene majorly but they cannot go back. Sad really, but oh well. I guess D&D REALLY want people to hate Jaime even more than they did before. So much for the view of his road to redemption like from the books. They will most likely hose that up too.

  6. Karl
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    I think those that complain about the scene cling too much to the books in my opinion. Like he said, different circumstances led to it playing out that way. I don’t see why people get so worked up about it.

  7. Jess
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    I was really hesitant to click, fearing he would defend this monumental f-up. Glad that’s not the case.

  8. Tomato Knight
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    Seems to me there’s some underlying tension between GRRM and D&D…

  9. Morrigan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Dis Pater,

    The fuck is that supposed to mean? He’s completely right and while he doesn’t say so outright, you can tell he’s unhappy with how the scene turned out and the showrunners really screwed up.

  10. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Karl:
    I think those that complain about the scene cling too much to the books in my opinion. Like he said, different circumstances led to it playing out that way. I don’t see why people get so worked up about it.

    Maybe because it changes the perception of an important character on almost every level? Because that is what it did.

  11. Seriano
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Your comment gave me a good laugh.

  12. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    And there you have it. An accidental boot on a butterfly in another time. No one has intentionally disturbed your nest. Thank you to Mr. Martin and the cooler heads on this site.

  13. Damp Hairy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Hound: “I’m no thief, man’s got to have a code.” 1 episode later, nevermind-let me steal this weak guys silver.

    Jaime: I hated when Kings I served raped their wives. Lost my swordhand to prevent Brienne’s rape, LOL nevermind I don’t care Imma rape Cercei.

    It’s D&D’s writing & tone-deafness that angers me. This mistep was as bad as white savior Dany bodysurfing brown people to end season 3. No episode have I ever felt so much like I was watching characters I didn’t know b/c most of it WAS NOT from the book.

  14. Bard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Well, that’s a bit ambivalent. He expresses some criticism regarding the fact that Jaime arrived earlier and the “butterfly effect” caused by that change, but he understands why they changed the Jaime/Cersei scene.

    I think Jaime would have had sex with Cersei in the books even if she refused him completely (and not just in the beginning and then “changing her mind” during the act). Of course it is more obviously rape compared to the book scene, but his behaviour is as wrong as it is in the books. They changed Cersei’s reaction to it.

  15. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    And yet, people will subvert this anyway into a passive-aggressive jab at the showrunners.

    The madmen will see what they see.

  16. The Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Not sure why people are complaining about the sex scene near Joffrey. Thought it was well done for what it was.

  17. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy:
    Hound: “I’m no thief, man’s got to have a code.” 1 episode later, nevermind-let me steal this weak guys silver.

    Jaime: I hated when Kings I served raped their wives.Lost my swordhand to prevent Brienne’s rape, LOL nevermind I don’t care Imma rape Cercei.

    It’s D&D’s writing & tone-deafness that angers me.This mistep was as bad as white savior Dany bodysurfing brown people to end season 3.No episode have I ever felt so much like I was watching characters I didn’t know b/c most of it WAS NOT from the book.

    THIS +++++++++++++++++++

  18. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy,

    The way Sandor sees it, a peasant and his silver are soon parted, by bandits or winter. Small difference, but there is a difference.

    Also, I don’t think there’s any arguing whether what Jaime did was rape or not. It certainly was. However, it never ceases to amaze me how eager some folks are to divorce the act from its greater context.

  19. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    D&D and Alex Graves fucked up. Simple as that. It doesn’t ruin the show. People will still watch and enjoy. But the damage that was done to the character of Jaime is very real. It’s just disappointing, especially for fans of the character.

  20. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    GRRM slyly avoids using “rape”.

  21. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    I think the scene is a lot more complex than some people give it credit. And I regret having jumped to conclusion right after the episode. I doubt I have any great influence over people but I’m sure I didn’t help matters by stating outright it was a rape.

  22. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    What I liked: The POV take. In the books Jamie’s POV was that it wasn’t a rape, but when you abandon the POV perspective it looked like “a bit of a rape.”

    What I didn’t like: “The butterfly effect” B.S.

    I was done with the whole rape thing a few posts ago, but since GRRM has spoken I figured I’d comment. Now, that’s it. I’m done with the non-rapegate for real.

  23. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Why can’t I edit my comments anymore?

  24. Laura
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    yeah,nothing wrong to change to a consensual sex scene to a rape scene.really,no big deal…

  25. Jeb
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Some of the criticsm of D&D is completely over the top. Character assasination, erm OK…

    They have been criticsied for allegedly whitewashing some characters, whilst ruining others redemption (oh, please).

    If you really didn’t like the scene and think that it has ruined the show, stop watching the show You won’t be missed.

    At least this might have stopped this Alex Graves love-in we’ve been experiencing over the past few weeks. We’re all human

  26. HellBlazer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    You can say they completely fucked up sometimes, George, it’s OK.

  27. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Karl,

    yeah,nothing wrong to change to a consensual sex scene to a rape scene.really,no big deal…

    You don’t care that the director and the actor, not to mention GRRM, have all suggested that it isn’t that cut & dry? Why are you so invested in misrepresenting intent? While I agree that it LOOKED like a rape, looks can be deceiving. As it seems to be in this case.

  28. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    axia777:
    They screwed up the scene majorly but they cannot go back.Sad really, but oh well.I guess D&D REALLY want people to hate Jaime even more than they did before.So much for the view of his road to redemption like from the books.They will most likely hose that up too.

    That was one of the best directed scenes in the series. And I’m not an Alex Graves fan.

  29. Easteros bunny
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    It was clearly rape, they have destroyed Jamie, everyone I have talk to thinks the same thing. Well done to the show runners. Completely destroyed jame and for what? Shock value?

    I hope it was worth it.

  30. Erica
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    You can tell he’s unhappy about it.

  31. milk
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    I actually thought this was a good idea. Jaime isn’t a good dude, has never been but he only loves one woman and this moment will be their last sexual moment, and its a disgusting brutal act that ruins their relationship forever. Jaime is frustrated that Cersei wants Tyrion (the only person who shows Jaime kindness and vice cersa) dead and by his hand as well and his son just died on top of it. He follows through with a disgusting act that permanently ends any affiliation that he will ever have with his sister/lover. His claim that he loves an angry woman or something like that perfectly showed even his disdain at the actions

    not a pretty scene and a bit of a change, but it really worked well in the context of the show I thought.

  32. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Karl,

    yeah,nothing wrong to change to a consensual sex scene to a rape scene.really,no big deal…

    THIS TOO +++++++++++++

  33. Ryan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    I thought the scene was messed up (in a good way). Just like is supposed to be in the book. So jamie is supposed to be on a road to redemption in the books right? Well he still fucks his sister next to there dead child. Really messed up…

  34. Brendan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    D&D are the sometimes incompetent Kindergarten teacher undoing a parent’s impeccable job of raising a child. It must be awfully tough on GRRM to put his baby in the care of those who are far less capable. The show runners have done great for the most part, but have dropped the ball about a dozen times through the first 33 episodes. Here’s one book reader feeling thankful that no matter what, the books are the books and D&D will never be able to change them. Now back to reading The House of the Undying scene from ACOK.

  35. Roger König
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Karl:
    I think those that complain about the scene cling too much to the books in my opinion. Like he said, different circumstances led to it playing out that way. I don’t see why people get so worked up about it.

    This!

    Gosh people, its a tv-show. i cant stand the whole bashing of D&D. they should have made an adaption like “dungeons & dragons” (yes, i am talking about the movie). or just spend the hbo budget on hookers and crack.

    when i first saw the scene i was kinda surprised it was like it was. i didnt expect it to be like this. but the fact that it is not like i thought it would be shouldnt make it bad in general. stopping the bloody mummers from gangraping brienne (and probably killing her during the act or at least afterwards) is something completely different from what happened in the sept last episode.

  36. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Jeb,

    I’ve said this before. Some people watch the show to be entertained. Others tune in expecting to see what they expect to see. Guess which group suffers the most disappointment?

    GRRM is right. The dynamic is changed with the timeline of the show. That’s the key difference between “No, no, no, yes!” and “No, no, stop it, not here, no.” Cersei had been denying him for weeks at this point. She put up a wall and Jaime seized this opportunity to scale it in terrible fashion.

    I stand by the scene, but I do believe adjustments could have been made to preclude some of the anger and confusion we’re seeing over it now.

  37. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: That was one of the best directed scenes in the series.And I’m not an Alex Graves fan.

    To each their own. To me it was total shit.

    Ryan:
    I thought the scene was messed up (in a good way). Just like is supposed to be in the book. So jamie is supposed to be on a road to redemption in the books right? Well he still fucks his sister next to there dead child. Really messed up…

    Except in the books it was CLEARLY NOT RAPE. :/

  38. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    In other words, “I can see where you’re coming from but what are ya gonna do? The TV show changes made it necessary.”

    This is an answer I can cope with. Ty, GRRM!

  39. John M W
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    HellBlazer:
    You can say they completely fucked up sometimes, George, it’s OK.

    The arrogance by by some in thread is absolutely astounding.

  40. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    He doesn’t say it’s out of character either

  41. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    99% of the comments to this post:
    “BAAWW WAAAWW THEY FUCKED UP THEY RUINED EVERYTHING WHAT HORRID HACKS, HOW DARE THEY RUIN MY AWESOME JAIME WHO IS TOTALLY REDEEMED BECAUSE I LIKE HIM AND DON’T WANT TO THINK OF HIM AS SOMEONE WHO DOES VILE CRAP, ALSO IN THE BOOKS IT WAS TTLY CONSENSUAL EVEN WHEN HE FORCED HIMSELF ON HER AND IGNORED HER PROTESTS, I KNOW I ALWAYS SAY THAT NO MEANS NO BUT NOT WHEN IT’S JAIME THE REDEEMED.”

    There, can we talk about something else now?

  42. kix
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    Common, it was rape… there is nothing to argue about it. Dont validate it as sex. Come on, you people are smart. It was rape, it was 180 degree different from what happened in the book.

  43. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Oh my god still crying over it

  44. Matt Sinopoli
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Easteros bunny:
    It was clearly rape, they have destroyed Jamie, everyone I have talk to thinks the same thing. Well done to the show runners. Completely destroyed jame and for what? Shock value?

    I hope it was worth it.

    We can’t really say that it ruined the character or that it was only for shock value until we see how it plays out in the rest of the season. Maybe they felt that the character needed to backslide a little now that he’s back in Kings Landing and this will actually be the thing that wakes him up and causes him to send Brienne on her mission. I’m not crazy about the scene either and if it really was played for shock value then I’ll be pretty angry, but I think we need to just wait and see how it’s handled in the coming weeks.

  45. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    It was not rape, just a bad edit:

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    If you still say it was rape, then you’re just trolling.

  46. Sheila
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    Or maybe we don’t think it makes sense to take a character who ordered the beheading of one of the Mountain’s men who raped Pia…protected Brienne from rape…but suddenly becomes a rapist put of nowhere?

    & also I am tired of this show using rape & sexual violence against women as a cheap plot device.

  47. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Brendan,

    Let me shorten that for you: “Mmmmmm, George, your ass tastes amazing!”

  48. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    It was not rape, just a bad edit:

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    If you still say it was rape, then you’re just trolling.

    So then they admit it was a screw up. At least there is that.

  49. Cumsprite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Someone helpfully posted the passage from ASOS. After telling him “no”, Cersei continues to protest:

    “She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her.”

    It’s a real bodice ripper! After firmly establishing Drogo can fingerbang his way to consent and that a few good thrusts (or, in the case of Dany, many hundreds and buckets of tears) is all a lady needs to get in the mood, Martin becomes an authority on what I should and shouldn’t be disturbed about.

  50. Janine
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    The fact that a lot of men don’t “get” this argument is why the argument needs to be had over and over and over again until the point is driven home. And I’m exhausted of the murder comparisons. When there is a murder, there is a clear right and a wrong and most of society abides by it. When there is a sexual assault, it becomes a barrage of questions designed to blame the victim. “What was she wearing? Was it late? Had she been drinking? Had she been flirting with anyone? Was she alone? Did she change her mind?” And this, yet again, enforces this idea that women can ‘like it’ when they say no again and again and again. You also wouldn’t be able to name every female character on this show that has been a victim of sexualized violence but on the other hand you could count the men that were victims of sexualized violence with one name. And of course, there was no doubt that it was sexually violent because it happened to a man. Cersei’s sexual agency was the only thing that she had that made her feel as though she were in control, the scene (while disturbing) was a lot more poignant and served a purpose in the books, while this is just another shock factor grab to try and rope in an extra Emmy nomination. Lazy writing, uninformed writing, bad writing.

  51. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    axia777,

    I’m sorry that your fantasy Jaime isn’t being presented the way you need him to. I’m also sorry that some of you are too obtuse to separate the books and show and can not find enjoyment out of a beautifully directed and acted scene.

    Please see Nous Wanderers essay on this topic, if you can read thru your tears.

  52. King Stannis
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:03 pm | Permalink

    There people… G.R.R.M has spoken, now drop it and move on! Especially D&D haters. We’ll get back to loving king slayer next week. We have done it after he threw bran out the window and done it when he fought Ned Stark.

    Oh I dislike you complainers about dany crowd surfing in essos. Get out of here you sensitive overreacting fools.

  53. xor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    also… passive aggressive reply from george which is expected

  54. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Roger König,

    Exactly. Jaime’s actions speak to their history, or its increasing irrelevance to who they are now. The fact he had to force himself on her says a lot about both of them. While it certainly was an act of rape, there are layers to the incident that people are quick to ignore.

    Honestly, it’s a strange standard we live with. I’m surprised non-consensual sex between two former lovers with an established history causes more of an uproar than, say, infanticide, or any number of horrible sights we’ve experienced on the show. The scene wasn’t written just to shock. We’ll all just have to wait for its follow-through next week.

    For all the hellfire leveled at it, you’d think it was a lingering male-gazey affair. The way it’s shot says a lot about the intent of the scene.

  55. sunspear
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Or maybe they aren’t forgiving the showrunners for failing so badly at editing.

  56. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Why is it so hard to just admit that D&D and Alex Graves messed up? They did. All they had to do was add more obvious ambiguity to the scene and there wouldn’t be such an uproar. One quick moment where Cersei moans in pleasure, kisses Jaime back, and tells him to be quick. That is all that was required. Or simply omit the scene all together.

    I’m a D&D defender in most cases. But this was a really poor decision on their part. That’s not an overreaction. Saying they are hacks and they continue to ruin the show would be an overreaction.

  57. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Janine:
    The fact that a lot of men don’t “get” this argument i

    It wasn’t rape so… sorry. Make your stand when it counts.

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    Funny how some of you are completely ignoring it.

  58. hey now
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Who the FUCK cares about character assassination? The same dude who pushed a kid out of a window? But he’s changed, you see, he’s become a sympathetic character! Oh, so him forcing himself on his sister has NOW ruined his character arc?

    What a crock, he’ll always be the man who attempted to murder a kid, that stain is always part of the character, and him saving Brienne does not make him “OMG WHAT A HERO, MY FAV CHARACTER OMG OMG OMG.”

  59. Bard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Laura:
    Karl,

    yeah,nothing wrong to change to a consensual sex scene to a rape scene.really,no big deal…

    In the books it was a rape attempt wich “turned” into some sort of “consensual sex”. Which is weird and fucked up and wrong on so many levels, even when you think about the unusual circumstances. I’m actually glad they changed it. Jaime’s behaviour in the books is as terrible as it is in the show (although, if you look at the way he was welcomed in KL, at least you get a better understanding why he gets that violent) , he wouldn’t have stopped in the books either. Cersei’s reaction to his advances is different. The sex scenes (and the way sexual violence is portrayed) are by far the worst parts of ASOIAF. I’m actually glad they changed Cersei’s reaction and I’m a bit baffled that so many people (especially the female audience) would like to watch a woman getting raped and suddenly starting to like it on screen.

  60. Erica
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    milk,

    Jaime is a man who has never condoned rape in his life. He was horribly disturbed when Aerys would rape his wife, and wanted to intervene. Why would he do that very thing himself? It’s not his character, it’s not the actions of a man who was just beginning to change for the better. Cersei is a terrible person who Jaime should not be with, but rape is NEVER an acceptable punishment. I repeat, RAPE IS NOT A PUNISHMENT.

  61. Janine
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: It wasn’t rape so… sorry. Make your stand when it counts.

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    Funny how some of you are completely ignoring it.

    Guess what aired? Rape. Deal with it.

  62. Damp Hairy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    King Stannis,

    If you can’t see the racial/cultural tone-deafness executed in the Dany crowdsurfing scene then you’re the fool, sorry to say. In the book the Jaime/Cercei scene was rough clumsy concensual sex, many of us man&women enjoy rough/forceful sex, but the scene as depicted in the show was unambiguously rape. Big difference fool, put on your motley & get to juggling

  63. Vin Sidious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Easteros bunny,

    If he wasn’t “completely destroyed” when he tossed a kid from a tower to hopefully die, or when he quite unnecessarily murdered his own cousin in a terribly vain and inept escape attempt, then I don’t see how this event can “completely destroy” him either, except in very narrow vision. If you perceived that he was on a “road to redemption” before, then why can he not get back on that road after a step off the path?

  64. Damp Hairy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    ^Yes this. They should have had someone check them. They are generally great but they’ve messed up big on occasion & this is one instance.

  65. (P)Imp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    As a book reader I want to let my fellow book readers know they sound like whiny petulant children on these message boards. The books are great. The show is great. They don’t have to be exactly the same. I get so tired of hearing the books or characters have been ruined by the show. I guess next you will complain there hasn’t been an episode devoted entirely to describing food and boiled leather since there are about 400 pages devoted to this type of stuff over the course of 5 books.

    How about a little credit to the show for Joffrey, Bronn, Sansa, Robb Stark, Tywin, and the Hound – characters much better on TV than in the books – and other things they do exceptional – the war of the 5 kings rather than the Dwarf joust at the Purple Wedding.

    I’m not saying you have to like everything, just stop being nit picky. You sound like an adult still living in Mom and Dads basement? Too close to home?

  66. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:14 pm | Permalink

    Okay, sorry, I can’t help myself.

    axia777: Maybe because it changes the perception of an important character on almost every level?Because that is what it did.

    Damn, you’re right! Sure, he threw that little boy out of a tower window to protect the secret that he’s banging his own sister (the queen), but hey, bad boys do that sometimes. #justantiherothings
    But forcing himself on a woman as a horrible decision in a horrible time when he’s in a pretty damn bad place mentally? Oh my god what will people think of him now!! :((((

    Erica: Jaime is a man who has never condoned rape in his life. He was horribly disturbed when Aerys would rape his wife, and wanted to intervene. Why would he do that very thing himself? It’s not his character, it’s not the actions of a man who was just beginning to change for the better. Cersei is a terrible person who Jaime should not be with, but rape is NEVER an acceptable punishment. I repeat, RAPE IS NOT A PUNISHMENT.

    Jaime was disturbed when Aerys brutally abused his wife, and he would’ve wanted to intervene even if Aerys had been “only” beating her and wasn’t raping her at all. Also, that was one situation and this was another situation, he was in a very different state of mind then and now. (Wow, people react differently to things in different situations! The more you know…) Also, rape is never an acceptable punishment, that’s why good people don’t do it. Guess what Jaime isn’t, despite some people’s insistence? Guess what he still did in the books, even when Cersei said “no”? (Or does “no always means no” only apply when the aggressive party is not a character we like?)

  67. Taylor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    it’s not a matter of us clinging to the books. it’s a matter of a dynamic of two characters that has been established in the SHOW that was totally and completely shat upon. Jaime would never rape Cersei. Period. End of discussion.

  68. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    (P)Imp,

    Right on! Although I have to say I never thought I’d see the day when people would hysterically overreact to something on an internet forum.

  69. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    If D & D are smart they will make a statement. This is a can of worms that could be problematic for the series. And not just because of this scene. This single screw up is bringing to light a pattern of possible misogyny that has occurred throughout the series. This challenges the viewers on a front beyond Jaime killing his kin, beyond alterations of the House of Undying, or Halfhand being shafted etc. A main character was raped by another main character (one that may be required for the audience to follow). Nor is this a rape occurring within the story world’s background as an element to demonstrate the gritty medieval aesthetics. This shoves this act despite its context in medieval society with a terrible crime in the modern day, in real life, in the viewers face. We can tolerate violence and sex on premium cable but rape is no joking matter. They need to address this.

  70. sunspear
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy:
    King Stannis,

    If you can’t see the racial/cultural tone-deafness executed in the Dany crowdsurfing scene then you’re the fool, sorry to say.In the book the Jaime/Cercei scene was rough clumsy concensual sex, many of us man&women enjoy rough/forceful sex, but the scene as depicted in the show was unambiguously rape.Big difference fool, put on your motley & get to juggling

    Those two situations aren’t even remotely the same. Jaime raping Cersei in what was meant to be a consensual sex scene is an indication that the director did a horrid job. Dany crowdsurfing is an indication that black people live in Morocco.

  71. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Taylor,

    Tywin would never allow Joffrey to make such an embarrassing display at his wedding in front of the other high nobility, thereby tarnishing the Lannister name. But that completely out of character moment was in the book, so it’s ok then.

  72. summer_stark
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    HellBlazer:
    You can say they completely fucked up sometimes, George, it’s OK.

    actually, i’m betting he can’t. i’m sure there’s a non-disparagement clause in his agreement giving them rights to his books–ie he can’t say anything bad about the show/showrunners…you can see the tension all the time. and it’s standard to have a non-disparagement clause.

  73. Cumsprite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    Janine: Guess what aired? Rape. Deal with it.

    No no no no. You’ve got it all wrong. Back in ye olde medium evil times, this wasn’t rape! Check your 21st century privilege! Cultural relativism … blah blah blah blah … this was totes wooing.

    *tips fedora*

  74. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    (P)Imp,

    This episode is my favorite “offshoot” episode yet. There was so much excellence that did not originate in the books, and I celebrate that fact. This season is going strong.

  75. Nancy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    It does not change my opinion on the scene (nor does Graves comments). GRRM answered the question well and I am glad he took the time to do so.

  76. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy,

    Yeah, I agree on that front. That whole scene was fairly awkward. I wonder if they heard and considered that feedback, because the Meereenese slave population came off as considerably more diverse than Yunkai’s, which I was thankful for.

  77. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    So HBO has been promoting incest all this time? These are reprehensible, screwed-up characters. Depicting them raping and murdering is the furthest thing from encouraging those behaviors. Get a grip.

  78. zor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    very passive aggressive response from GRRM

  79. Damp Hairy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    sunspear,

    ^& nowhere in that process did it occur to be a bad idea, despite the location & extras? Maybe we shouldn’t end season 3 w/ a triumphal CGI shot of an immaculate white dot in a sea of darknesses.

    & nowhere in the process before last night did someone see the episode who had also read the book or hell read the scripts & say hey D&D this is all very rapey & against cannon & character?

    I worry D&D are getting into the Lucas Starwars prequels/P.Jackson Hobbit phase where their decisions (including bad ones) go unchecked and quality/fidelity suffers.

  80. ladygrace
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t Bryan Cogman write the episode?

  81. Janine
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    sunspear: Dany crowdsurfing is an indication that black people live in Morocco.

    Morocco actually has a lot of white people. Identifying as Muslim does not make them automatically brown. Most of its population descends from Western Europeans, who are in fact white. However, due to conflicts within the different ethnic groups of extras they had on the Morocco sets, a lot of fights broke out and many of the extras cast were fired. They had what they had and the extra cast this season from Split seems more racially diverse.

  82. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    We won’t have these problems next week with Cogman and MacLaren.

    However I can’t help but think Jaime tasking Brienne with his honor, giving her Oathkeeper and saying “Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor” will be nullified or at least weakened by the rape scene. People may not buy Jaime’s redemption now. People won’t want him to succeed.

  83. Commenter
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    The show is not the books. Get over it. People who think Jaime was on a path to great redemption can eat a dick anyway. He’s an arrogant, selfish piece of shit. All that has changed in the books is his perspective of himself.

  84. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    ladygrace:
    Didn’t Bryan Cogman write the episode?

    No, Benioff and Weiss wrote the episode.

  85. zor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,
    then why did they edit it that way?

  86. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Commenter,

    “Maybe they’ll call me ‘Goldenhand the Just.’” [cue canned laughter]

  87. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    I just watched the episode because well.. England… and it was a bad scene. Directed very good, but so bad. I think violent sex next to his son’s corpse would be enough of an act to end all relations with Cersei…. but then again it’s not believable that Cersei would consent to that… so none of us can really say.

    That man is the only person who could say Jaime wouldn’t rape her then, and he didn’t say it. There you go.

  88. Josh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    wizardeyes:
    We won’t have these problems next week with Cogman and MacLaren.

    However I can’t help but think Jaime tasking Brienne with his honor, giving her Oathkeeper and saying “Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor” will be nullified or at least weakened by the rape scene. People may not buy Jaime’s redemption now. People won’t want him to succeed.

    Or it highlights his regret about what he’s done.

  89. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    It actually kind of mirrors that scene in season 1 now i think about it, when Jaime is grabbing her and she’s telling him to get off her and he won’t stop… so if you look at it that way, not so surprising

  90. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    (P)Imp: I guess next you will complain there hasn’t been an episode devoted entirely to describing food and boiled leather since there are about 400 pages devoted to this type of stuff over the course of 5 books.

    I’m not saying you have to like everything, just stop being nit picky.You sound like an adult still living in Mom and Dads basement?Too close to home?

    Complaining about boiled leather is not even close to the same thing as having issue with an added rape scene. Now skip the insulting of other commenters. Review our moderation policy if you’re unclear on the matter.

  91. easteros bunny
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Not ignoring it, they are just ignoring you.

    These guys should be smart enough to think a scene like that won’t cause problems. Seriously, if it was consensual in the books, keep it that way.

    Oh wait, everything is okay! she wrapped her legs around Jamie, cool! that totally explains how consensual it is! sure looked like rape to me.

    Seriously, it would have taken 10 seconds for them to write “no, not here, not now” in the script. It was a sloppy cut.

  92. Veltigar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Well, I’m late to this party… so, my thoughts on the episode:

    1) That rape scene was pure bullshit. D&D really outdid themselves in this one (I thought Stannis and Loras had always gotten the short end of the stick, but boy they brought the wrath down on Jaime).

    2) The above was a real shame, since the rest of the episode was really great.

    Is your social worker in that horse? No, just Mads Mikkelsen cast as Euron

  93. Annara Snow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    (P)Imp:
    As a book reader I want to let my fellow book readers know they sound like whiny petulant children on these message boards.The books are great.The show is great.They don’t have to be exactly the same.I get so tired of hearing the books or characters have been ruined by the show.I guess next you will complain there hasn’t been an episode devoted entirely to describing food and boiled leather since there are about 400 pages devoted to this type of stuff over the course of 5 books.

    How about a little credit to the show for Joffrey, Bronn, Sansa, Robb Stark, Tywin, and the Hound – characters much better on TV than in the books – and other things they do exceptional – the war of the 5 kings rather than the Dwarf joust at the Purple Wedding.

    You think that Sansa, Robb and the Hound are better (heck. “much better”) on TV than in the books? Oh, dear gods…

  94. Sid
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m concerned about my unsullied friends who have lost respect for Jamie. I also agree with everyone above, if they had done the scene only SLIGHTLY differently it wouldn’t cause this shitstorm we’ve seen online.

  95. Dan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides,

    I doubt that they will make a statement, and I doubt it will have any impact on the series. If anything, controversial scenes increase ratings as others want to see what everyone is talking about. But, that said, I don’t think it’s all that controversial. Show Jaime is a murderer, and he tried to murder a child. I’m pretty sure most people think his murders are worse than his raping of his sister, who he has been having sex with for decades and has multiple children with. I have a ton of friends that love the show, but none of them, regardless of whether they read the books, even brought up that scene when discussing the episode. Obviously, that’s just anecdotal evidence, but every time I see some controversy on this site about changes from the books, my friends who love the show don’t even have a reaction to the controversy and the show doesn’t skip a beat. My guess, is that will be the case this time, too.

  96. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    It was not rape, just a bad edit:

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    If you still say it was rape, then you’re just trolling.

    It’s their fault for filming it the way they did. Oh well.

  97. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    easteros bunny: no, not here, not now” in the script. It was a sloppy cut.
      QUOTE  

    um yes if he still proceeded that would still be rape

  98. Kilgore Tully
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Whether or not it was meant to be rape, fits certain definitions, could have been edited differently –whatever– does not matter.

    The inclusion of the scene, as filmed, without warning, was insensitive. Hundreds of thousands of rape victims could have been watching, and a lot of them with friends or family who don’t know. If seeing sexual violence on TV is a trigger for those people, this episode just sucker-punched them and they had to take it in silence

    Compare this to victims of violence; if television violence is a trigger, they should check out content warnings and absolutely know not to watch Game of Thrones. When mass shootings and bombings are in the headlines, content warnings do not suffice and we see episodes featuring bombs and guns delayed or aired with special warnings/condolences.

    Far more people are raped every day than have died in any mass shooting, and yet there is no “sexual violence” or “rape” content warning at the beginning of the episodes.

    There is room in film to portray rape, but before the discussion about tasteful ways of doing so, there has to be fair warning for those who can’t even see a hint of it. Forget what this means for the story. There are far more important things than the story.

  99. telobsidion
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    Even as annoying as the character change is, the real question for me is whether the showrunners are even aware of the scene being sister-rape as it was shot.

  100. tysnow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    People should look and listen more to the scene, Cersei is actually ripping at Jaime’s clothes, she wants him sexually, but then she remembers where they are and wants him to stop, not because of him but the situation. This could be the result of bad editing, which if this was their intention it was a major stumble.

  101. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    telobsidion,

    Watch the Inside the Episode feature. Pretty clear they were aware. Benioff: She’s saying no, and he’s forcing himself on her. So, it was a really uncomfortable scene and a tricky scene to shoot.

  102. Fluff
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    axia777,

    Maybe they are counting on people realizing that their characters are neither angels, nor devils and that they all do things that are despicable, because they have the potential for evil as for good, as most of us do.

  103. jennyofoldstones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    milk,

    Right. I agree with everything you said.

  104. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Though I appreciate GRRMs clarifications in saying “Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.” Illustrates Cersei isn’t faking wanting to have sex like some suggested as a reading of her dialogue.

  105. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    gewa76,

    Tywin would also never publicly emasculate the King and undermine his apparent authority.

  106. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Sid:
    I’m concerned about my unsullied friends who have lost respect for Jamie.I also agree with everyone above, if they had done the scene only SLIGHTLY differently it wouldn’t cause this shitstorm we’ve seen online.

    i didnt read the books and i dont have problem with the scene because i dont have anything to compare with scene does not clash with the tv characters. for me jaime is not angel

    even he repent himself doesnt mean he wont do it again and they never had sex when jaime gets kings landing she rejects him in the first episode

  107. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Tomato Knight,

    Nope. It doesn’t. He tries explaining the change, but never says his opinion on it. Even if he HATES this one scene (and I do think he does), it doesn’t mean that he has tension with D&D. They already said that he grades episodes for them. This is not their first bad alteration or the last (though it does stand out), and he discusses these things with them. I am sure that by now they’ve learned that it was a mistake to outrape an already rapey scene. There’s nothing left to do but move on, and hope that scenes from the next episode will soften the blow (as in “yes I enjoyed it, but you shouldn’t have done it there”).

  108. leoff
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    So sick of people calling “character assassination” for every change they disagreed. The term has lost it’s meaning. And please, stop the delusional nonsense like “the show will suffer after this”. The pilot episode showed Danny being raped and Drogo turned out to be one of the most popular characters. GoT is a major hit and so it will remain for a while.

    It was rape as far as I can see. So what? Cersei was always a negative force that drove Jaime to his lowest point. Away from her, Jaime improved significantly. Once he’s back to the presence of his sister, Jaime slided back to his obsessive behaviour. The rape might be the beginning of Jaime realizing he must cut all bonds to Cersei to actually redeem himself.

  109. telobsidion
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    I’ve read Graves’ comments, and I have to say that the scene was still poorly shot/written, as I did not see it the way Graves does. I was watching it waiting to see it as consensual. I never saw it. I was looking for it. If he says it’s supposed to be and that the clues are in there, then I have to say it was a poor job if pretty much every other book-reader looking for the same details missed the signs too.

  110. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    So Tywin wouldn’t find out about the planned dwarf show and immediately put the kibosh on it?? Come on.

  111. GG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    At this point, I think it’s best to just send everyone to Westeros.org’s opinion on the scene cos it’s too complicated for me to address myself & I think they did it best. All I’ll say is that anyone decrying it as a flat-out rape scene either hasn’t read the books, wasn’t paying attention to the scene or wasn’t watching what else was going on in the scene besides Cersei saying “no”. Is Jaime’s behaviour 100% excused? Of course not. But I don’t think he deserves all the crap you’re piling on top of him.

  112. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    leoff,

    This site needs upvotes or likes.

  113. ladygrace
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Ok, thanks. Either way people do need to realize that the show doesn’t do things exactly like the books did. Even George has said that the show is David & Dan’s baby not his. Plus Cersei isn’t the type of woman that would let anyone violate her like that. Not even Robert did that.

  114. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides: If D & D are smart they will make a statement.

    I can see it now.

    “We’re deeply sorry that we made you realize that the character you like is not a good person and that he’s not redeemed and changed for the better just because you now know that he had a good reason to kill the king. We’re sorry for the mental pain of having to acknowledge that you can feel sympathetic for a character who occasionally does despicable things, and the distress of finding out that the character you were cheering for since the last season is not, in fact, a knight in shining armor.

    Currently we’re in the process of re-editing the series in order to avoid distressing our faithful viewers by making them disappointed in certain other characters.

    Sincerely, the showrunners.”

    Kilgore Tully: The inclusion of the scene, as filmed, without warning, was insensitive. Hundreds of thousands of rape victims could have been watching, and a lot of them with friends or family who don’t know. If seeing sexual violence on TV is a trigger for those people, this episode just sucker-punched them and they had to take it in silence

    You can’t possibly be serious.

  115. Bard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: Complaining about boiled leather is not even close to the same thing as having issue with an added rape scene.Now skip the insulting of other commenters. Review our moderation policy if you’re unclear on the matter.

    And showing a woman getting raped and suddenly starting to like it/giving in to it (like it is depicted in the books, consensual sex my ass) would have been so much better and more appropriate?

  116. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    It was not rape, just a bad edit:

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    If you still say it was rape, then you’re just trolling.

    ” She’s a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go, “He’s kidnapping her only boy,” because she’s not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like — you read the scene and go, “Wait, who’s directing this?”"
    -Alex Graves in the Hollywood Reporter.

    Also Benioff says in the Inside the Episode that Cersei is saying no and Jaime forces himself on her. Clearly there’s some unclear stuff going on with Graves wavering, but to call people trolls for calling it rape is wrong. Especially since the director called it that, and Benioff came close.
    It may be a bad edit, but the final edit is what counts. What we saw on screen is what matters. Intentions are fine and dandy but the finished product is what we view and what we assess. I understand they probably wanted to convey the uncertainty of the book’s scene, but they failed.

  117. Del
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    Erica:
    You can tell he’s unhappy about it.

    You can?

  118. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: It may be a bad edit, but the final edit is what counts. What we saw on screen is what matters. Intentions are fine and dandy but the finished product is what we view and what we assess.

    Even if it’s just a bad edit (I doubt it, given that pretty much everyone says it’s rape, with only one instance of Graves saying it’s not really, maybe that interview was done before the final cut was ready) I think it works perfectly. Just because people are too hung up over what they expected to see and/or can’t get over the fact that their golden boy hero could’ve done something like that (even though it seems it’s okay to push a child out of a window), it doesn’t mean that anyone who says otherwise is FUCKING UP and RUINING EVERYTHING.

    Fact: I like Jaime a lot. But he’s a complex character and a bad person. Sometimes he’s trying to be a good person – this wasn’t one of those times. He most definitely wasn’t in the right place mentally.

    Bard: And showing a woman getting raped and suddenly starting to like it/giving in to it (like it is depicted in the books, consensual sex my ass) would have been so much better and more appropriate?

    Well yes, because see she’s a total hussy, and besides women always say “no” even when they really want it, how is poor little Jaime to know what this Jezebel really means? And the fact that she starts to like it means that the beginning wasn’t rape at all. It is known, and it is not offensive at all because It Is Written in the Books.

  119. lol
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Ahhh, looks like I’ll be enjoying another bottle of rage-filled tears courtesy of the bookbeards tonight.

  120. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    Bard,

    Exactly. This goes for the Dany-Drogo scene as well. If they shot it exactly like the book, where a 14 year old girl sold into a marriage gets all hot and bothered, you can be sure HBO would be getting criticism for dismissing rape as “she really liked it after all”. Just the kind of mentality they’re clearly not endorsing.

  121. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: It wasn’t rape so… sorry. Make your stand when it counts.

    http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

    Funny how some of you are completely ignoring it.

    The scene that was shown was Rape. The damage has already been done. No one is talking about what the scene “was supposed to be”. that ship sailed already when the producers/directors left the editing board. Can they fix it on the blu ray release? Yes, but they screwed up big time on Sunday

  122. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    I’ve decided that the scene makes sense, especially seeing as Jaime is going to be leaving Cersei to die in season 5 and throwing a letter in the flames... anyone who thinks Jaime has a “redemption arc” didn’t notice that he threatens to kill Edmure and everyone in Riverrun because he wants to be his father’s son

  123. Kilgore Tully
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Cumsprite:
    Kilgore Tully,

    If people haven’t figured out that this show might have problematic sex scenes by now, they have bigger problems than trigger warnings. Like opening a jar of peanut butter.

    Righty tighty, lefty loosey people!

    Other than this, the closest the show has come to a rape scene was Sansa’s close call (which was done well; it was horrifying to watch and didn’t pretend Sansa would just forget). Otherwise, rape has been portrayed as a crime generally more detestable than murder. It is mentioned often and is definitely a part of the world, but it absolutely has not been a significant part of screen time.

    [Edit: Okay, yeah, there are some other examples. You have that first Dany scene, but it's barely violent. There is some Dothraki rape, but it does not make up a scene and is all background.]

    Add to this the book readers who know what’s coming (and, reading and seeing a rape scene can be different things), and I really do think that it should be everyone’s reasonable expectation that rape will not be shown on screen.

    This episode had five warnings: Adult Content, Adult Language, Nudity, Strong Sexual Content, and Violence. It makes enough of a difference to draw lines between those and post them separately, and yet no “sexual violence” content warning? I’m sorry, but what the fuck is that?

  124. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    Actually I take that back in the article Graves admits that the scene that was shown on Sunday “was his cut of the scene”. He has no regrets. In that case, what point were you trying to make Geekfurious? I assumed from your comment that Graves made a mistake but he clearly thinks he did not

  125. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    gewa76,

    I second this.

    leoff,

    Absolutely true. It was a colossal fuck up, but not completely “character assassination”. In the books Jamie was ready to kill Arya when Cersei asked him to (after the whole thing with Joffrey and the butcher’s boy) and that is in my opinion much worse than rape (in its own way). Yes, that happened BEFORE he lost his hand, but the fact is that Cersei brings the bad (as in, really bad) out of Jamie. The show must go on, and hopefully this moment will be left behind. Let’s all forget it ever happened, shall we?

  126. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I just read the article that Geekfurious posted and there was no bad edit. Graves says the final edit was his. The “bad edit” was false speculation/rumor

  127. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    ladygrace:
    Ours is the Fury,

    Ok, thanks. Either way people do need to realize that the show doesn’t do things exactly like the books did. Even George has said that the show is David & Dan’s baby not his. Plus Cersei isn’t the type of woman that would let anyone violate her like that. Not even Robert did that.

    The problem with this is you’re saying “let” someone violate her, as if someone being raped has a choice. What type of woman she is is irrelevant. And Robert was abusive to Cersei, certainly. The good thing about Jaime and Cersei’s relationship in the books, as twisted as it is, is that it’s one of the few willing romances.

    Bard: And showing a woman getting raped and suddenly starting to like it/giving in to it (like it is depicted in the books, consensual sex my ass) would have been so much better and more appropriate?

    In the book, we get a better understanding of the situation, what her real objection is and we get a clear idea of consent from Cersei as well. It may be gray initially, I agree, but the show sailed past the gray (and her consent which was enthusiastically given in the book version, ultimately) and past the point of no return. If they didn’t want it to be rape, they should have edited it better.

  128. TOIVA
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    It’d be hilarious to read some the comments here if it weren’t so sad. Destroying a character that’s killed his cousin, pushed a child through a window by him raping someone? Huh? Not only was it far more than just rape, but it’s a fictional character in a fictional setting.

    Also: Khal Drogo raped Daenerys in a much more straightforward way. Don’t think it ruined his character at all.

  129. A Man Grown
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Whether or not Cersei consented and to what degree is very important for her character, how we would expect her to react to this event going forward, and for the level of exploitation and misogyny in the scene. Focusing on her consent or lack thereof does miss one important bit though – the way the scene was shot, Jaime was going to do what he did regardless of what Cersei said. He even says “I don’t care.” It’s a despicable act on Jaime’s part no matter what.

    Whether he would have gone that far in the book is murkier and debatable, but as others have pointed out he did keep going after she initally said no.

  130. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    Here’s Graves quote, he really believes it’s consensual. That just tells you that they really screwed up big time in the scene because it clearly looks like rape. Also, the justifications he gives are piss poor “she closes his legs around him” smfh

    “It’s my cut of the scene,” he says. “The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.”

  131. daroe23
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

    I’m mostly disturbed by the confirmation bias going on here. As soon as Jaime became a POV character we no longer had the luxury of simply hating him. The somewhat drastic swing from pure animosity to understanding is extreme. The scene in the book was a rape. It was. As soon as she said “no” and stared hitting him and pushing him away and he “never heard her” and continued fulfilling his sexual desires without even acknowledging her until she “consents” is actually more disturbing than what we got in the show. It would have been worse, in my opinion, to have her get all into just before the cut, so if this was an editing mistake I am all for the error. Pretending the encounter in the book was some kind of romantic thing is insane and illuminates some the readers need to qualify the actions of their new dreamboat anti-hero. Jaime is a flawed character. Which, if I’m not mistaken, is one of the core tenets of this story.

  132. Nick
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    Wow,i see that the Westeros crowd is here in full force.

  133. Chris
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    I love the books, but George has written brutal, brutal rape scenes– gang rapes, a teenager with is described as “slow” is raped but hundreds of men on the streets of KL (just one example). Let’s not act like this a warm, fuzzy world…..

  134. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    daroe23,

    Except the director of the show keeps on calling it CONSESUAL! If they just own up to the rape I wouldn’t have a problem but outright denying what was shown shows huge sighs of Mysogyny/Ignorance

  135. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, daroe23 is right. People are absolutely correct that the TV show depicts a rape. But some people are delusional if they don’t think the book shows a rape. Cersei said no repeatedly. She hit and punched Jaime to get him to stop. He ignored her, threw her down, and ripped her clothes off. That *from Jaime’s point of view* she then gave in is irrelevant and possibly even false given as GRRM himself points out this is not an objective viewpoint. You ignore a woman’s NOs, ignore her punches and shoves, and tear her clothes off and you raped her.

    People are upset about having their blinders about Jaime pulled off.

    I also agree that the scene is even more disturbing in the books given the self-serving justification we get from Jaime’s point of view.

  136. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Justinian: Yeah, daroe23 is right. People are absolutely correct that the TV show depicts a rape. But some people are delusional if they don’t think the book shows a rape. Cersei said no repeatedly. She hit and punched Jaime to get him to stop. He ignored her, threw her down, and ripped her clothes off. That *from Jaime’s point of view* she then gave in is irrelevant and possibly even false given as GRRM himself points out this is not an objective viewpoint. You ignore a woman’s NOs, ignore her punches and shoves, and tear her clothes off and you raped her.

    this, I also advise that people read Bran’s chapter where they have sex again too… she protests and he forces himself on her until she gives in

  137. Deekan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    All right, I guess after 4 years, I’m just gonna stop visiting this site. Just wow. F*** this b****ing. Thought this was a place of fun and speculation…not this narrow-minded complaining. I expected better of you people. But this negative energy is too much for me to stand. Aww, this sucks. But…

    Good bye

  138. Gooderson
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    You book loyalists are free to be mad over this, I just don’t see the point. Yes, it was a significant departure in tone from the book. They changed an important moment in the book. I find their version equally interesting, perhaps more so.

  139. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Game of Thrones just put up a tweet called “Learning the hard way”. The irony is palpable

  140. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I understand they probably wanted to convey the uncertainty of the book’s scene, but they failed.

    Yes, it was rape. No, they didn’t show enough subtlety, certainly not enough to communicate how it happened in the books. No, it didn’t surprise me that Jaime did such a thing. Jaime is no saint in either the books or the show. On the show, the relationship is strained even further by his earlier arrival and weeks of denial and actual loathing she expresses for him physically–show Jaime is absolutely desperate. Understanding this and commenting on it does not mean I or anyone else who does so is condoning rape. D&D are not condoning rape. It’s ugly, it’s uncomfortable and that’s precisely what they wanted to communicate. They want to show the flaws in these characters. And as many others have mentioned, the relationship between Cersei and Jaime is dysfunctional on many levels and there are indications in the books that they have had inappropriate sex in inappropriate places at inappropriate times in inappropriate ways since childhood. Any discussion of this scene without all of that context is incomplete and far too simplistic.

  141. Hodor's Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    I demand that GRRM respond to Sam’s rationale that Gilly and baby would be safer in Mole’s Town.

  142. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I feel compelled to repost what Benioff says in the Inside the Episode feature: ‘She’s saying no, and he’s forcing himself on her. So, it was a really uncomfortable scene and a tricky scene to shoot.’ They’re not ignorant to what the scene depicts.

  143. Joh
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    WompWomp,

    Thank you. I laughed quite a bit.

  144. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    gewa76,

    Alex Graves certainly seems ignorant if what he filmed from his comments

  145. StevenM
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    I certainly hope everyone that is in an uproar over this was in an uproar over the changes to Dany and Drogo. That was changed significantly from the books, far more than this…

  146. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    StevenM,

    In the books GRRM had to bend over backwards to make the Dany scene consensual. Would a 14 year old girl consent to sex with a 30 year old barbarian she just met?

  147. Cumsprite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:41 pm | Permalink

    Kilgore Tully,

    Ya know what? I came up with a snarky response to this, because it is my nature. But you make a helluva point. A trigger warning for rape is not unwarranted. Personally, I think people shoulda seen something like this coming, still, it’s not asking too much. But, it’s possible that HBO didn’t see this as a rape at the outset (the it “became consensual” bit) so maybe the idea of a warning never came up. Which leads to larger questions I am neither equipped or inclined to get into.

  148. Salty Dornishman
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Sheila:
    Karl,

    Or maybe we don’t think it makes sense to take a character who ordered the beheading of one of the Mountain’s men who raped Pia…protected Brienne from rape…but suddenly becomes a rapist put of nowhere?

    & also I am tired of this show using rape & sexual violence against women as a cheap plot device.

    What, like history? Rape and sexual violence against women has been used to subjugate people *forever*. Not by all societies, but a whole damn lot of them. Not saying that as an apologist – but instead as someone who does not try to shoehorn history’s ugly episodes through the prism of modern sensibilities. As both a woman (despite my handle) and a book reader, I think the scene came across very differently than in the book. I felt that way about Drogo & Dany’s wedding night (read the book, folks – clearly not rape, notwithstanding Dany’s age). But the proof is in the pudding, people. Let’s see what Cersi thinks about it next week.

  149. Varamyr Fourskins
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Most viewers/readers want to see Cersei drawn & quartered, so it’s rather amusing that people are suddenly so concerned for her. But I guess if they’re going to draw the line somewhere, twincest-rape is as good a place as any. However, if it were up to her, I’m sure she’d much rather prefer to be manhandled by Jaime than be drawn & quartered by Stark fans. So maybe people will snap out of it once they realize that they themselves, as the viewers, wish far more harm upon her character than she received last night.

  150. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    I would call it rape. I would say it’s a heinous act by Jaime that he may try to rationalize or feel disgusted by later. I would also say J&C’s relationship is heinous, and they have both tried to rationalize it over the years. Whether the sex was supposed to appear as consensual or not is irrelevant to a debate about rape, because we’re not supposed to sympathize with either of these characters. The show is not endorsing rape or incest.

  151. KG
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    ladygrace,

    Robert certainly DID.

  152. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    StevenM,

    In the books Dany says “yes” on their wedding night, then he rapes her everynight for a month until one day she says she is going to kill herself that night, before discovering the tall grass of the Dothraki plain and tasting freedom for the first time in her life, and then their relationship turns to love

    In the show he rapes her on her wedding night, not rape in a court of law because they establish that he knows what no is and she does not use it, but still visibly rape as she shows that she doesn’t want it, and then their relationship turns to love.

    It’s literally the same but on a shorter timeline.

  153. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    People keep throwing this so called “redemption arc” and the fact that Jaime pushed Bran out of a tower in the faces of those upset with the show’s portrayal of this scene, and in doing so are completely missing the point most are trying to make. Jaime is a decidedly gray character. He is not Ned Stark. But the man does have a code, for lack of a better word. Yes, he pushed Bran, but he did so to protect Cersei and her children. I will not defend the action. It was horrible, but it shows what he was willing to do to protect Cersei. Now, consider the times he defends women in the books. He saves Brienne from rape twice, even though he had no love for her at the time. He has Lannister men executed for raping a whore. He lays into the kingsguard for abusing Sansa. Now, tell me how him hate raping Cersei is at all true to that character? I just don’t see how anyone can make that leap in logic.

  154. Dorne tootin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    hey now:
    Who the FUCK cares about character assassination? The same dude who pushed a kid out of a window? But he’s changed, you see, he’s become a sympathetic character! Oh, so him forcing himself on his sister has NOW ruined his character arc?

    What a crock, he’ll always be the man who attempted to murder a kid, that stain is always part of the character, and him saving Brienne does not make him “OMG WHAT A HERO, MY FAV CHARACTER OMG OMG OMG.”

    Deekan,
    Agreed.

  155. Alan
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Morrigan:
    Dis Pater,

    The fuck is that supposed to mean? He’s completely right and while he doesn’t say so outright, you can tell he’s unhappy with how the scene turned out and the showrunners really screwed up.

    I’m not sure how you get that at all.

    While I’m sure Martin’s rarely happy when they change his story, and yes, he has incentive not to sell out D&D, he also has the unique perspective of doing exactly what they are doing for years.

    Would he have done it exactly that way? I doubt it. Was his understanding of the situation just a facade that only you can unravel? I doubt that as well.

  156. tdraicer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    My final post on this: I agree rape is rape in a legal and moral sense, but what happened between our twincesters is more involved than either the legal or moral definitions imply. This isn’t about rape in modern America, this is about the twisted relationship between two very damaged people in an intensely violent and male-dominated world, coming to a head beside the body of the murdered twisted son they created. I’ve no trouble with calling it rape, even if she (rather clearly) had mixed reactions to Jamie’s taking her, but the word is not a substitute for analysis, and in the context of the events of the show, his loss of control and her obviously unhappy but still somewhat ambiguous response make sense for both those characters. And pointing that out is not defending “rape culture”, it is simply treating both these very complicated characters with the seriousness they deserve.

  157. Mimsy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    Hodor’s Bastard: I demand that GRRM respond to Sam’s rationale that Gilly and baby would be safer in Mole’s Town.

    I know right?! I cannot believe Sam left Gilly there.

    Soooo… I wonder how ppl are gonna react to Jaime trying to kill Tyrion. Jaime’s a bad guy from minute one.. redemption takes time.

  158. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: Now, tell me how him hate raping Cersei is at all true to that character? I just don’t see how anyone can make that leap in logic.

    Dunno, better ask GRRM since Jaime obviously raped Cersei in the books as well.

  159. Jared
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Wow.

    This may be the single most overblown controversy in the history of both this website and the Game of Thrones television program. In less than 24 hours, it’s inspired more For Our Consideration think-pieces, angry opinions, and unnecessary bile than any entertainment-related issue that I can remember, and more than a few real-world issues. I know that expecting the Internet not to blow something like this completely out of proportion is the height of naivete, but Good Lord. I think that Justin Bieber and Kim Kardashian can take the week off – the Internet will run for days on this kind of fevered nonsense.

    And here I, sweet Summer child that I am, thought that the long-time arguments over how Stannis has been characterized and whether or not Sansa’s agency has been stripped away were bad and unnecessarily hostile. Clearly, I knew nothing.

    As for the scene itself … I thought that it was beautifully shot and expertly played by both Lena Headey and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau. It was dark and disturbing, but obviously it was intended to be, so it served its purpose effectively. I may prefer the book version of this particular scene, but that version is pretty damn dark in its own right, as GRRM himself notes. I can see the character developments and plot alterations made so far by the television series led the creative team to play the scene this way, and I don’t begrudge them at all. I’m excited to see the fallout in the coming weeks.

    Three other thoughts, focusing on the accusations that have been flying around (not necessarily on this site in every case, but definitely on the Internet as a whole)

    1) I do not believe that this scene ruined Jaime as a character (who, in the interest of fairness and full disclosure, is my favorite character in the entire ASOIAF series). Far from it. I think that it revealed a side of him that was always there, but many people, willfully or innocently, had chosen to overlook. He may not be the White Knight that everyone hoped that he had become at the end of Season 3, but that does not mean that he is suddenly gotten a personality transplant, or that he is “irredeemable”.

    2) Benioff and Weiss’ decision to write the scene the way that they did, and Alex Graves’ decision to film the scene the way that he did, does not prove that they don’t understand Jaime as a character. It certainty does not prove that they are hacks and History’s Worst Monsters, as some people seem all too willing to suggest. That particular argument has been refuted repeatedly and emphatically over the past for years. Question the choices they made. Don’t slander the people involved.

    3) Anyone who attempts to make a reasoned argument, using material from the show, for why Jaime did what he did, is not in any way condoning rape. Anyone who accuses them of doing such a thing is taking the laziest possible approach to this issue, and stands to lose whatever moral ground that they’ve staked their claim to. I would bet my life that no one here is “pro-rape”. Attempting to rationalize why a television character like Jaime Lannister (or Walter White or Tony Soprano, for that matter, both of whom performed similar acts on their respective shows) did what he did, and why he might still be a recognizably human character worthy of sympathy or understanding, does not automatically translate to forgiving his actions. Explanations are not excuses, and people who seek to understand those who perform violent actions are not championing them. This really isn’t that hard to understand.

    I suspect that I’m shouting into the wind on this issue, if anyone’s still reading this lengthy diatribe (which is doubtful). If they are … I’m genuinely sorry that it came to this. I hate it when people climb onto a soapbox for any reason, but I hate it even more when people can’t discuss complicated issues in a calm and rational manner without resorting to name-calling and overly-broad, ultimately unfounded generalizations.

    Hopefully by the time next week’s episode arrives, those with cooler heads and thicker skins will have prevailed on this issue, and we can return to having a civil discourse about the great television show that all of us (well, most of us) love so much. In the meantime, I’m washing my hands of any further discussion of this scene. Clearly, some people can’t talk about either violence or changes to the source material without insulting the writers, the director, or each other. And that’s a damn shame.

  160. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    People keep throwing this so called “redemption arc” and the fact that Jaime pushed Bran out of a tower in the faces of those upset with the show’s portrayal of this scene, and in doing so are completely missing the point most are trying to make. Jaime is a decidedly gray character. He is not Ned Stark. But the man does have a code, for lack of a better word. Yes, he pushed Bran, but he did so to protect Cersei and her children. I will not defend the action. It was horrible, but it shows what he was willing to do to protect Cersei. Now, consider the times he defends women in the books. He saves Brienne from rape twice, even though he had no love for her at the time. He has Lannister men executed for raping a whore. He lays into the kingsguard for abusing Sansa. Now, tell me how him hate raping Cersei is at all true to that character? I just don’t see how anyone can make that leap in logic.

    Exactly. Most of the terrible things he does (and good things for that matter) are to PROTECT the people he loves, for better or worse, not to do them damage.

  161. milk
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    Erica,

    you keep talking about book jaime. They arent the same thing and ending their relationship in a gross rape scene is a pretty powerful device to show to Jaime that his old love and life are done forever. This scene was a powerful display of how gross and far their relationship has fallen. The past is unable to be recovered for either after this

  162. Jesteros
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    I personally had no real problem with the scene; it was a change from the books, but not the first. I don’t feel it ruined Jaime, either. Since Jaime got back to King’s Landing, he’s tried so hard to fall back into the arguably villainous life he was living before; maybe that is why this didn’t feel out of place to me. He was on the right path, and then he faltered.

    Either Cersei will hate him for it and he will express regret and realize what he’s done, or both of them will go on like nothing ever happened which, as far as I’m concerned, discounts the “rape” theory.

    Either way, it should make for good television. The amount of discussion around this particular scene is very surprising. I thought it was a very good episode and personally had no problems with any one part of it (though Gilly and Sam went on perhaps a minute or two too long).

  163. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Justinian: Dunno, better ask GRRM since Jaime obviously raped Cersei in the books as well.

    GRRM’s quote above essentially said its consensual in the books or meant to be read that way even if it starts the way it did.

  164. Greenjones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Jared,

    Well said! Let’s all calm our shit.

    Also, by continuing to make rehash threads here, we’re only feeding the fire. Why not do something productive like link the promo for Oathkeeper and we can look at the screenshots and think up what’s coming next week?

  165. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Justinian,

    I simply disagree. But if I express my thoughts on the scene, I will be accused of defending rape culture. I’ll just say that it is ambiguous in the book. It is a dark scene filled with lust on both sides. GRRM says so himself.

  166. Ozymandias
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    The scene didn’t ruin the show but it did ruin this website that’s for sure.
    People are going to bring that scene till the end of the show or what ?

    No one is talking about the actual episode which is actually one of the strongest of the series, that’s fucked up man.

    I’m outta here.

  167. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    axia777: There are no tears you egotistical fool.I can in fact separate the show and the books.In my opinion, the writers and director FUCKED THIS SCENE UP.I do not agree with YOUR opinion.Neither do many people here.So piss off.JERK.

    Actually I have quite a fan club. And I do try and avoid personal attacks. If you can separate the two then please tell me why the scene was shit? Why do you not think that Jaime saying “No” to Cersei for not wanting to kill his brother and then taking what he wanted, again with Cersei’s discontent, not pivotal for the characters development and hopefully ultimate redemption?

    I think it makes Jaime giving Brienne his sword and honoring his vow to Catelyn that much more believable and sincere. As he has finally broken free of the one person who controlled his emotions and actions.

    Its powerful yeah. Powdered suggggaaaaahhhhhh!

  168. ladygrace
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    I’m not saying people have of choice of getting raped. Cersei taking into consideration what she was asking Jaime right before he took her (kill Tyrion), I believe she was more likely saying no to get him to do what she wants and because she might have feared being caught. From what I saw in the preview for next week, she’s trying to use Jaime to kill for her

  169. GRRMlin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    At least this clears up one thing. The show defenders saying that in the books it was also rape is simply not true. So yeah, they did deviate from the source material, and yes, it’s a pretty big deal.

  170. ladygrace
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    From what I remember, both from the books & the show, the only time she mentioned Robert forcing himself on her was when Ned confronted her about having an affair with Jaime. She became bitter about it because Robert called her Lyanna not because Robert raped her. That’s my opinion. I could be wrong though.

  171. Stupendous Man
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Alternative take: the scene rescues Cersei’s character from being someone who would willing have sex next to the body of her dead son. In fact, the show has rescued Cersei from a stock “evil queen” role into a complex and somewhat sympathetic character.

    Of course, people seem less concerned with that than preserving their image of Jaime as a misunderstood hero. Jaime is vain, ruthless, and often cruel. He’s not a good guy, he’s just preoccupied with the idea of being a good guy. I still love his character – I think the show has deepened it, not ruined it.

  172. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin:
    At least this clears up one thing. The show defenders saying that in the books it was also rape is simply not true. So yeah, they did deviate from the source material, and yes, it’s a pretty big deal.

    It is true. It’s right there on the page. Whatever GRRM intended to be there what is actually there is a rape. I mean… people have no trouble with the idea that the director intended to depict something that started out one way and ended up consensual so why should you have any difficulty accepting the same could be true of GRRM? Writing and filming can both depict something you didn’t necessarily intend to depict.

  173. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    To put it another way; one cannot without hypocrisy claim that the director is wrong about what he claims he filmed while saying GRRM cannot be wrong about what he claims he wrote.

  174. Cumsprite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    GRRMlin:
    At least this clears up one thing. The show defenders saying that in the books it was also rape is simply not true. So yeah, they did deviate from the source material, and yes, it’s a pretty big deal.

    Why is it a big deal?

  175. Luana
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    In summary: GRRM is either a) too happy with the truckloads of money being dumped on his doorstep to care, or b) is contractually obligated to not criticize the series. Probably both.

  176. purplejilly
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Ya know, I stopped replying and commenting here a year or two ago, because this was how it always played out:

    Anytime I (or anyone, really) made a comment that was negative towards the TV show, certain ppl would rise up, and say;

    “ooh, you’re just a whiny, inflexible book purist… get over it.. it’s JUST a TV show, blah blah blah.”

    There seemed to be no way to have a real discussion of anything you didn’t like if you were a book reader, and were unhappy with the artistic license taken by the show. So basically I just stopped wasting my time, and the time of everyone who ranted against people who didn’t like the changes.

    So why am I back here, making this comment? Wasting your time and mine? Because Episode Three was JUST THAT TERRIBLE.

    Terrible in so many ways. The Jaime and Cersei rape scene, for one. I haven’t even read the other thread, but I can tell you, the scene was just wrong. It was sickening. It makes no sense in Jaime’s character arc. It ruins everything he was just arguing for with his father in the previous episode. All the honor and redemption he had built up in the past 10 episodes when right out the window.

    Tywin’s speech to Tommen – it WAS the wrong place. Cersei was right for once. It felt awkward. Grandpa should have taken him on a walk out of the Sept right away, and walk-spositioned him around the castle or something. Plus the scene felt awkward, like an excuse to throw some Westeros history at the viewers.

    The “Moonrise” foursome shot that started on the asscrack and rose up, and then felt like a preachy lesson on bisexuality and homosexuality. I have no problem with either, and am happy they are creating characters that are bisexual and gay, and giving them positive portrayals, but this scene felt like a return to the old ‘nudity because we can’ sexposition days. It was awkward and uncomfortable. The scene just did not seem organic to the story, and was there for nudity and HBO’s quota. Didn’t we just learn all this about Oberyn and Elia in the last episode? Why did we need to see it all again? Bah…

    The Thenns eating people. Why? Isn’t murder, rape and pillage enough? We have to have cannabalism too?

    It’s really getting to the point where I question if I want to continue watching anymore. Even though this is a fantasy show, I feel like if I watch a show, and support it, purchase it’s merchandise, and give it good ratings, then I am supporting what they do and portray, and I can see other shows saying “Game of Thrones is doing GREAT with all the raping and cannabalism and sexposition – why don’t WE do shows with the same stuff going on?” And I am truly not interested in upping the portrayal of rape, cannabalism, and sexposition on TV. Especially rape. Guys might think it’s no big deal, but to girls, it’s a bigger deal than you think. Look at the controversy it’s created. Rape is an every day problem for women around the world, and every time a scene is shown where it turns out to be ‘okay’, because deep down, Cersei really ‘wanted it’, that legitimizes rape just a little bit more for men around the world.
    I’m deeply disturbed by this episode.

    What makes me even more upset, is how wonderful episode two was, compared with how horrible episode three turned out to be.

    Now you may go ahead, and tell me that I’m wrong, and I should stop watching the show.

  177. CM Punk
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Seems like D & D have created controversy just for the sake of it.

  178. dreamlife
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Is anyone else tired of GRRM’s “butterfly effect” quotes?? It’s like he thinks he’s onto something really clever and uses it to explain away things he doesn’t like in the show. Changing the Jaime-Cersei scene to a rape scene has nothing to do with any butterfly effect. It was the director’s having no clue how that scene would come off when viewed by, say, 99% of the viewing public.

  179. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    You shouldn’t leave for those reasons. People should be able to complain if they want to.

    I actually felt that 402 was a choppy edited mess. The only saving grace was the wedding, which was a marvel to behold. All of Ep 403 on the other hand was shot beautifully and it really showcased the directors vision in a coherent way with only a minor pacing issue with Sam & Gilly, but I love those two together that I forgive that flaw.

  180. Annara Snow
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    ladygrace:
    KG,

    From what I remember, both from the books & the show, the only time she mentioned Robert forcing himself on her was when Ned confronted her about having an affair with Jaime. She became bitter about it because Robert called her Lyanna not because Robert raped her. That’s my opinion. I could be wrong though.

    She remembers Robert sexually abusing her in her chapters in AFFC.

  181. tdraicer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    >Seems like D & D have created controversy just for the sake of it.

    Uh, no. They created a scene they thought worked for the characters and the story. The controversy exists entirely in the reaction of others who disagree. But that they have the right to disagree doesn’t make their disagreement objectively right.

  182. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    ladygrace,

    While it’s not how I interpreted the scene at all, it has been suggested by an official source (possibly Graves) that Cersei is manipulating Jaime in this scene. Again, this isn’t how I saw it, and if this was the scene’s intent, it was either poorly conveyed or we’ll need next week’s follow-up to solidify the idea.

    Ozymandias,

    It definitely is. I don’t think we’ve ever had a scene quite as captivating and organic as Tywin’s soft abduction of Tommen.

    purplejilly,

    Too pure, didn’t read, but watch whatever you want.

  183. Maester Blaster
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Is it still wrong if the man thinks it’s consensual? Big can of worms, I’m not going to touch it.

    Is it still exploitative if the storyteller thinks it’s vital to the narrative? I’m going to avoid that issue to.

    The only narrative that matters is the one in the fan boy or girls head when he or she is reading and to violate a character who you love (Jamie of course, no one cares about Cersei) is apparently the greatest crime imaginable in fiction or real live.

  184. purplejilly
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Maester Blaster,

    If the woman says “No”, the man shouldn’t think it is consensual, even if he thinks she might like it once it’s all over and done with. This is a really big problem. Now if the next episode had Jaime being sent to the wall for raping, it might be okay, but I think the reason I am mad, is that there isn’t going to be any fallout for Jaime. He goes off with Brienne to look for Sansa, I am assuming.

  185. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    KG,

    Totally on the same page I think. Very happy that George addressed it, I feel bad that he felt he had too, but I feel so much better now, all things considered. Thank you George.

  186. telobsidion
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Justinian,

    Cersei was lusting for Jaime too in the books. And they’ve been lovers since before they hit puberty. To Jamie’s knowledge, they’ve been singly devoted to each other all of their lives. I’m not saying the scene in the books was innocent, but it’s different than a close guy friend or even a boyfriend pushing himself on a girl/girlfriend.

  187. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury: I understand they probably wanted to convey the uncertainty of the book’s scene, but they failed.

    I remain a bit less bothered because I still saw the book scene as rape to begin with. Those who didn’t — or see it as more like 70/30 vs the show which comes across as 98 pct rape and 2 pct submission (at best) will see it different, and I get that.

  188. Ruth Fabiano
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    I agree with a lot of people on here- and it has nothing to do with Jaime “staying a golden boy” to me. He was a dented, flawed character in the books. But he wasnt a rapist. Its sad to me that TV series viewers wont know that. I do, and thats all that matters. It was a very bad decision, and a failure of adaptive storytelling.

    @Jerk of Thrones- there are some things to keep to yourself. Everything you posted falls into that category.

    Lady Wolfsbane,

  189. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Rygar: Actually I have quite a fan club. And I do try and avoid personal attacks.If you can separate the two then please tell me why the scene was shit?Why do you not think that Jaime saying “No” to Cersei for not wanting to kill his brother and then taking what he wanted, again with Cersei’s discontent, not pivotal for the characters development and hopefully ultimate redemption?

    I think it makes Jaime giving Brienne his sword and honoring his vow to Catelyn that much more believable and sincere.As he has finally broken free of the one person who controlled his emotions and actions.


    Its powerful yeah.Powdered suggggaaaaahhhhhh!

    I still think it is a gross mischaracterization of Jaime and was just bad writing. Jaime in the books was never a rapist. Not to mention directing. I felt is was clumsy at best. To each their own. I await where they take this new direction.

  190. The Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    This is why book fans are looked on so poorly for almost all book-to-screen adaptions. They freak out over the smallest stuff.

    The episode was fantastic.

  191. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard:
    This is why book fans are looked on so poorly for almost all book-to-screen adaptions.They freak out over the smallest stuff.

    The episode was fantastic.

    So say the people who do not read books.

  192. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know if Cersei was really objecting. I think Cersei likes Jaime like that. I know she said no – and this comment is obviously in no way related to real life – but Cersei has always liked Jaime powerful. The whole reason she starts to dislike him is because he’s lost his power. I saw this scene as Jaime trying to reassert himself, prove his ‘manliness’, and Cersei relenting eventually.

    Either that, or she was raped, and this will simply be used to weakly explain why they don’t want to be together.

  193. David
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    Because he is supposed to have a conscience now.

  194. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly: Now you may go ahead, and tell me that I’m wrong, and I should stop watching the show.

    To quote Barney Stinson, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

    purplejilly: Tywin’s speech to Tommen – it WAS the wrong place. Cersei was right for once. It felt awkward.

    Yes. You’re correct. That’s the point of the scene. It’s entirely the wrong place, but Tywin Lannister could not give a damn about the wrong place. He’s about the family name, consequences be damned. That’s the point. Just because Cersei is technically correct does not mean the show then breaks the fourth wall, and the director walks in and says, “Lord Tywin, she’s kind of right.”

    purplejilly: I have no problem with either, and am happy they are creating characters that are bisexual and gay, and giving them positive portrayals, but this scene felt like a return to the old ‘nudity because we can’ sexposition days. It was awkward and uncomfortable. The scene just did not seem organic to the story, and was there for nudity and HBO’s quota.

    It is used, once again, as a way of showing the Dornish as more enlightened sexually, rather than seeing the natural end of this sinful, sick relationship at the center of what caused a gigantic goddamned war in Westeros.

    purplejilly: The Thenns eating people. Why? Isn’t murder, rape and pillage enough? We have to have cannabalism too?

    I don’t believe the Thenns are raping anybody, actually. They in fact seem more interested in eating Ygritte than raping her.

    purplejilly: Rape is an every day problem for women around the world, and every time a scene is shown where it turns out to be ‘okay’, because deep down, Cersei really ‘wanted it’, that legitimizes rape just a little bit more for men around the world.

    But the vast majority of those on these boards aren’t seeing it that way. They’re mostly breaking down into two groups: those who saw it as rape in the book and rape here, and those who saw the book scene as more consensual and the TV show version as rape. The smaller group is those who see it as consensual. And just about nobody – save for a few awful comments that have been thankfully deleted and shouted down – believes that it is legit as a way of behavior, and not a mortifying, horrific act.

    Quit watching the show if you like. But I disagree with parts of this interpretation.

  195. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    If any character was “assassinated” it was cersei….SHE WAS SUPPOSE TO BE ON HER MOONS BLOOD!!!!!

  196. The Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    purplejilly,

    If you hate something so much, why waste your time even commenting on it? I hate the NBA. I don’t go to NBA forums to complain about basketball.

    This show is the greatest show in television history. Forget a home run. It is like 3 Grand Slams in the same inning awesome. Yes a lot of people on here just want to complain about the smallest details that don’t matter.

    Enjoy it for its greatness or find a new hobby.

  197. jerk of thrones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    i cant stand these fucking hypocritical book readers.

    They practically couldnt contain their delight in book 5 when cersei is sexually humiliated and made to parade through the streets in a very disturbing, gratuitous fetish scene. they were like “that evil bitch got what she deserved!” and now they’re all upset she gets raped! They are bozos.

    men LIKE to see strong women degraded and punished and dominated, even to the point of being sexually and physically assaulted. i’m not saying it’s right, i’m not saying it’s moral or it’s civilized, but thats a HUGE part of the appeal of the books AND the show.

    to try to pretend the books or the show is above that sort of cheap titillation and fetish scenes is laughable.

  198. The Bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    axia777: So say the people who do not read books.

    I’ve read the books. The books are great. The show is much better.

  199. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    jerk of thrones:
    i cant stand these fucking hypocritical book readers.

    They practically couldnt contain their delight in book 5 when cersei is sexually humiliated and made to parade through the streets in a very disturbing, gratuitous fetish scene. they were like “that evil bitch got what she deserved!” and now they’re all upset she gets raped! They are bozos.

    men LIKE to see strong women degraded and punished and dominated, even to the point of being sexually and physically assaulted.i’m not saying it’s right, i’m not saying it’s moral or it’s civilized, but thats a HUGE part of the appeal of the books AND the show.

    to try to pretend the books or the show is above that sort of cheap titillation and fetish scenes is laughable.

    Are you mental or just projecting your sick fetishes?

  200. David
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    This episode was a disaster. Jaime undoes all the sympathy built up for him over Season 3. The Hound doesn’t have a code after all; he and Arya would have looted the bodies of those they killed at the tavern in episode 1 so I see no need for him to rob the kind father who fed him stew. The Sam/Gilly section advances the plot not-at-all. Jon and the Blackwatch heading out to murder their brothers at Craster’s place invalidates their oaths. The whole “Wildings as free peoples” theme is brought to nothing by the cannibalistic Thenns. Stannis goes nowhere. There is no sign of Theon’s sister and her 50 badass Ironborn who are supposed to rescue Theon. Well, the producers have just experienced their Stalingrad. A few more episodes like Breaker of Chains and the whole show will be nicknamed Breaker of Franchise.

  201. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    I do agree that this is good for Cersei, who is so badly written in the books. I hope people start to look at things from Cersei’s perspective, I mean there are people who thought Skylar White was a bitch all through Breaking Bad, sometimes people need to be shocked to actually sympathise with complicated female characters

  202. jerk of thrones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: Are you mental or just projecting your sick fetishes?

    Yes i’m so unusual and sick. NO ONE likes to see humilation/dom scenes. Everyone who enjoys watching them is SUCH a bad person.

    I’m such a freak. I should be driven off the internet.

  203. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    David:
    This episode was a disaster. Jaime undoes all the sympathy built up for him over Season 3. The Hound doesn’t have a code after all; he and Arya would have looted the bodies of those they killed at the tavern in episode 1 so I see no need for him to rob the kind father who fed him stew. The Sam/Gilly section advances the plot not-at-all. Jon and the Blackwatch heading out to murder their brothers at Craster’s place invalidates their oaths. The whole “Wildings as free peoples” theme is brought to nothing by the cannibalistic Thenns. Stannis goes nowhere. There is no sign of Theon’s sister and her 50 badass Ironborn who are supposed to rescue Theon. Well, the producers have just experienced their Stalingrad. A few more episodes like Breaker of Chains and the whole show will be nicknamed Breaker of Franchise.

    Except you’ve literally just underlined a clear motif running throughout the episode.

  204. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    David: A few more episodes like Breaker of Chains and the whole show will be nicknamed Breaker of Franchise.

    Absolutely, which is why this episode was the most-watched in the series’ history. Because nobody can stand it!

  205. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard: I’ve read the books.The books are great.The show is much better.

    To each their own.

  206. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    jerk of thrones: Yes i’m so unusual and sick. NO ONE likes to see humilation/dom scenes. Everyone who enjoys watching them is SUCH a bad person.

    I’m such a freak. I should be driven off the internet.

    You literally just tried to tell me, as a man, I like to see women raped. You can speak for yourself.

  207. MATTHEW
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    House Mormont:
    I do agree that this is good for Cersei, who is so badly written in the books.

    This is an EXCELLENT point. I am so sick of book-readers who want the show Cersei to be MORE LIKE the character from the book when the character from the book is like this flaming Cruella DeVil who runs around throwing tantrums with smoke coming our of her ears. She’s a caricature in the books. I find her chapters entertaining, but she’s hardly a great literary character.

    Thank God the excellent Lena Headey has chosen to play her with more subtlety.

  208. Ruth Fabiano
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Yeah Jerk of thrones need some counseling. I do agree that the show has a LOT of T & A, but I think there are a lot of people, both men and women, who actually DONT tune in to see “women be degraded”. If thats what you gleaned from the books and/or show, I feel bad for you. Pick up a Hustler instead.

  209. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    David,

    You’re missing the importance of The Hound’s thievery, he even says that he doesn’t think it’s stealing because it’s survival, it’s showing Arya learning from The Hound and becoming a darker person; losing her honour in favour of survival and revenge

  210. jerk of thrones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Chriss: You literally just tried to tell me, as a man, I like to see women raped. You can speak for yourself.

    some men and some *women* (gasp!) like to act out PRETEND rape and watch PRETEND rape acted out in front of them. That’s what we got to see last night.

    It was a good fetish scene but it was just cheap titillation, like much of Game of Thrones. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  211. Manatees
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    People are complaining because it’s a rape scene. The books contained a sex scene.

  212. Greatjon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Clearly this has sparked a lot of debate judging by what’s going to be 200+ comments in here and 400+ on the original recap thread. I want to break down the Vulture article a bit where they interview Graves because more is said that disturbs me and brings me a bit closer to Tyrion Pimpslap’s line of thinking (best name on these boards, btw, well played). I still think of the book scene as rape, or rape with ultimate submission, whereas this is rape, pure and simple. And if the director/showrunners meant to muddy the waters in the direction of “sorta consensual,” they fell short. Here’s a whole crapload of quotes from that interview:

    What kinds of things did you talk about with the showrunners in terms of how to play the sex scene between Jaime and Cersei, and why was it changed from how Martin had written it in the book?
    There wasn’t a lot of talk about it, to be honest.

    Ok, that’s where I do a spit-take. Not a lot of talk about it? Come again? Maybe next time we have Michelle McLaren direct one of these kinds of things? Cause, y’know, you mighta wanted to talk about it???

    What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

    Sounds like he’s blaming the writers a bit, but at this point, I’d say she’s a bit more than cajoled into it. She’s forced into it.

    For Cersei, she is so blindsided and in the middle of the audacious murder of Joffrey at his own wedding, she’s standing there pondering all this with her other son, her sweet son. And her father comes in and basically says, “There is no way you’re going to have control over this kid” and takes him away.

    Yes. On this, fine. Good show.

    OK – NOW WE GOTTA GO LINE BY LINE.

    The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him…

    OK, fine, but the viewers didn’t really see that. I sure as hell didn’t notice that, and I’ve watched the scene four times now.

    and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on.

    Um, I don’t really know what that means. She could be holding on to not fall. I don’t know what this adds or doesn’t add.

    And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him.

    This, I’ll give him. I saw that in a first viewing. The first kiss is the passionate one. She spurns him. He does the “Hateful woman” line and grabs her and roughly kisses her, and starts to pull her clothes off. Then she does respond and kiss him back, and that *may* be part of the reason I’m seeing it as nearly on par with the book though I can see those who do not.

    The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

    She’s also kissing him on the way to the floor, too.
    There’s one problem with this, though. If they truly meant the end of this to be more ambiguous, and here’s where Tyrion Pimpslap is right, then having him say “I don’t care” over and over and her saying “It’s not right…it’s not right” pretty much kills that. The last enduring visual and audio you have is her saying it’s not right and holding onto the altar or whatever that is. That’s the mistake, that could have been pushed a bit more toward her accepting/consenting/submitting, even.

    The reporter also points out that what she’s resisting is that it’s happening next to Joffrey, which, well, yes, but they don’t say that explicitly.

    That’s probably the main reason she consents, is to pull him in, because she’s results-oriented, period.

    Again I don’t see consent here. And this results-oriented thing is like junior league MBA nonsense. She refers to being “ridden like a horse” by her husband to Sansa and tells her father she’s “not some brood mare.” So this shit affects her, deeply and badly.

    The only thing I can hope for? That it is addressed in the next episode.

  213. House Mormont
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    MATTHEW,

    The balancing of show Cersei is one of the best things the show has done, it’s much better than “I’m actually a crazy bitch but it’s only because Maggy the Frog gave me a bad prophecy when I was younger”

  214. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    jerk of thrones: some men and some *women* (gasp!) like to act out PRETEND rape and watch PRETEND rape acted out in front of them.That’s what we got to see last night.

    It was a good fetish scene but it was just cheap titillation, like much of Game of Thrones.Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    It is not intended to be fetish fulfilment. These are characters I’m invested in. To see a character be raped is horrendous. Porn is surely different.

    Either way, I’m not sure I see it as a rape. I think Cersei likes Jaime like that, as I said, and was seduced by it. She likes him as a powerful man and is repulsed by him when he is weak. I think she didn’t want to submit to her lust, but whilst feeling conflicted, probably doesn’t consider herself raped.

  215. Damp Hairy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    Cerseismoonblood,

    yYu win the internet for your name & your comment, Cerseismoonblood.

  216. WinterWailer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Geek Furious, I’m sorry to say but the interview doesn’t defend your point.

    “What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began…”

    So it’s okay to rape someone as long as they eventually come around to enjoying it?

  217. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    jerk of thrones: That is where we will have to agree to disagree.The SNL skit with the teenage producer in charge of boobies was was not far off.The guys who run the show love showing boobs, but they also love showing kink and pretend violence toward women because it’s titillating and sex sells, even kinky sex.

    I love that people actually take the show seriously–it’s very cute: I used to take He-Man very seriously when I was six–and you are welcome to do that, but please do not overestimate the motives of the very hornymen who are behind the show and making a shitload of money off it.

    Yes, this is where we’ll have to differ. I don’t find the same enjoyment in the degradation of women as you do, and I seem to have a better understanding of the show than you do.

  218. Chriss
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    WinterWailer:
    GeekFurious,

    Geek Furious, I’m sorry to say but the interview doesn’t defend your point.

    “What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began…”

    So it’s okay to rape someone as long as they eventually come around to enjoying it?

    Cersei and Jaime have been together sexually almost all of their lives. They’re almost a singular case. I don’t think you’re supposed to extrapolate sexual mores outside of their relationship. Do you think Cersei feels raped?

  219. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else here actually love the books and show??? Anyone ever not complain about such stupid things in a show they love to watch?? I dont think I ever complained about anything in this series and ive read all five books….ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!?!

  220. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Also from an inside source.. Cersei loves jaime inside her.Period.

  221. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Dino and Byron episode review livestream is up!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI30eKMna0M

  222. Unbowed Unbent UnHodor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Cerseismoonblood:
    If any character was “assassinated” it was cersei….SHE WAS SUPPOSE TO BE ON HER MOONS BLOOD!!!!!

    This….(P.s Cool name, really fits your post)

  223. Vyrion
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Wasn’t rape then, except it looked like rape on first glance, and sounded like it with the music and Cersei’s vocal objections and that is how it’s being perceived by everybody from the sounds of things regardless of what was apparently intended to be suggested. So it is rape in the eyes of everyone who watched it. In either case, I am reserving judgement on the decision to show it edited that way (or whatever) until I see it in context of the season as a whole, the consequences, and what happens next. But that’s only me.

  224. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    Friendly reminder that using multiple screennames is not permitted, and is grounds for banning if it persists. We do notice.

  225. somuchforoldtown
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    I can go either way, rape or rough sex. But what I can’t stomach is Jamie banging one out next to his dead kid. WTF? I’m sorry, but I can’t buy into that shit, not in books, not in show, not even in the dark ages. Just not believable at all. Lame and over the top.

  226. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    Dunno if your talking about me but earlier I used the name jamiesword then decided it wasnt good enough so im sticking with this name…first time I ever comment on this site just because of all the outrage.

  227. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Has anyone mentioned the glorious reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail with Shireen’s “KIN NIG ITS” line to Davos?

    I rewatched THE scene and the only thing missing from the book was Cersei telling Jaime “yes yes yes you’re home…”. Both start with rape and both have Cersei telling Jaime not here and this is not right (meaning fucking next to Joff in a sept) and Jaime not caring.

    And you all thought Tybees tits were going to be the biggest controversy on this site. Well they are pretty massive but I think the Jaime v Cersei sex tape has to be given props here.

    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time ah.

  228. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    The scene was a change, but not one that reflected any change in Jaime’s character.

    Hear me out: In the books, Jaime approaches Cersei, and starts getting physical with her while she is still resisting him. Now, it is true that, eventually, Cersei consented to what Jaime was doing to her, but that was after he already “went ahead” without her permission. So Jaime’s decision is the same in the books and the show: he started aggressively having sex with Cersei without her permission. I find no moral distinction between raping someone who eventually consents to what you are doing and raping someone who continues to resist your advances. That’s why you are having these seemingly contradictory statements about it eventually becoming consensual and it being rape. Just because Cersei eventually let’s it happen, doesn’t mean that Jaime was raping her from the beginning.

    If we are to gather anything from the GRRM interview, it’s that the scene in the book was suppossed to be disturbing. I think that means that the scene was intended to seem aggressive and “rapey,” at least at first. D&D just decided to keep it rapey. The change reflects more on Cersei than it does on Jaime.

  229. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Wish we could post gifs and stuff in the comments…heres a link to a gif of what I think…….http://31.media.tumblr.com/21b2a49736bcc2bffc215e6cc7767185/tumblr_mjh2i8dHnE1qdltdlo1_400.gif

  230. TheLoneStark
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Justinian,

    No, what is on the page is sexual assault, not rape.

  231. dtones520
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Karl,

    You don’t see why people get so worked up about it? Well for one it was, or at least came off as, a rape scene, which isn’t really pleasant to watch for any one. Two, it’s a complete character assassination for Jaime, who would never rape anyone, let alone Cersei. They have changed many things about characters in the show, but this is beyond the whitewashing we have seen of other characters. This is totally, 100%, not Jaime and that’s what book readers are upset about. They could have done the scene similar to the book, they could have made a really uncomfortable, weird sex scene without Jaime coming across like he was raping his sister/lover.

  232. Pedro
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    This was perhaps the most drama-loaded episode in the series so far. Great filler setup for the upcoming events of the season!

  233. Justinian
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    dtones520: Jaime coming across like he was raping his sister/lover.

    The way for Jaime to not come across like he was raping his sister would have been for him to not rape his sister. Which is exactly what he did. In the book.

  234. trarecar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    This is the risk you take watching a beloved book series made into a show. Sookie Stackhouse book fans were up in arms about the changes to the characters on True Blood – message boards exploded in S3 and S4. Alan Ball became a pariah. Those character changes were extreme. I don’t think this scene tweaking was as extreme.

    They’re never going to be able please everyone. The sept scene doesn’t seem to be altered all that much, since there are plenty of people who think it was a rape in the book, too. Those who like Jaime will still like Jaime. If non books readers could grow to like Drogo, they will continue to like Jaime, especially with what he will do later in the season.

  235. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Cerseismoonblood,

    I do. I’ve read each book several times. I’ve watched each episode of the show at least a half dozen times. I own all 3 seasons on Blu-Ray. The show is one of my 3 or 4 favorites of all-time. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t parts of the show that I haven’t liked. This particular scene was the only one that has truly upset me, though. There are just as many parts of the books that I haven’t been thrilled with either, but not enough to ruin my enjoyment of them. While the scene from this past episode took me for a loop, I don’t anticipate it ruining my enjoyment of the show moving forward, though it did effect my initial viewing of the rest of the episode.

  236. Bean
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I tend to criticize the show, and I was shocked at the scene at first viewing (Jaime & Cersei).

    Watching it again, I have to give the director a little more credit, the scene had some subtleties to it.

    I think in general the show is terrible when it comes to sex and human sexuality, but this wasn’t one of those moments. It felt somewhat plausibly human.

    Agreed with others’ complaints that the cannabalism is hamfisted and over the top (But I’m over it) and that the brothel scenes are cheesy (though this episode’s was by far not the worst).

  237. Josla
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    I posted this question in the previous thread by mistake so I will ask again in case anyone heard anything. On my second rewatch I noticed a dothrali walking by Danys side. This made me think of KOvarro, who was kind of prominent in season two. I assumed he was taking Rakharos place but now I’m starting to think he was dropped from the story. Basically all the dothraki have been noticeably absent for a couple seasons now. Has anyone read or heard about the actor who played Kovarro or the reasons why he’s not on the show?

  238. DerpDerp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    “There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his
    tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”
    “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she
    moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up
    her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring
    about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He
    never heard her” Excerpt From Jaime VII A Storm of Swords.
    .

    I think even George is delusional if he thinks that this wasn’t Jaime forcing himself upon her (Rape). It also seems like people are making a mountain out of a hill with the difference between the book and the show on this scene(GRRM included).

  239. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak:
    StevenM,

    In the books GRRM had to bend over backwards to make the Dany scene consensual. Would a 14 year old girl consent to sex with a 30 year old barbarian she just met?

    Agreed. I see it as rape in both versions. Forcible rape in the show, statutory rape and coercion in the books. I’ve always viewed Dany’s eventual love for Drogo as being sort of Stockholm syndrome.

  240. Phil
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    my problem with this is that there really was no reason to change this. The scene as it happens in the book is messed up enough as it is. It also affects how viewers see Jamie as a character, and unless they are going to make more changes to him, it doesn’t add to his character arc, in fact it takes away from it.

    I’ll be curious to see if this change is in any way resonated on the show, or if it just fades into the background. They’ve done this before with the Dany/Drogo scene. Their arc continues much as it is in the novel despite the weird change in how their wedding night goes. I think the same will happen with Jamie. Which frustrates me even more becasue there is no reason for them not to have filmed the scene like in the books. I’m not a book purist. I don’t care that Ghost isn’t mute or Mago doesn’t die in the books. But I do care about significant character changes that don’t seem to be for any other reason than shock value.

    Game of Thrones is still a great series and an above average adaptation of the books. But this isn’t the only misstep, and it probably won’t be the last. I think book readers should be able to complain about it without being called “purists” or “bashing D&D” Everyone is still doing a mostly great job with a herculean task. Peter Jackson made some missteps with Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, they’re still great movies. Could they have been better, yes. Could Game of Thrones be better, yes. Are they still all REALLY GREAT, also yes.

  241. sheila
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Granted I haven’t read this scene in the book, but was not put off that this was a rape as that this was a creepy continuation of their incestuous relationship. Cersei had been denying him to punish him, Jamie would not be denied… it is incest. It’s ‘not right’ from the ‘get go’! Nothing could have made it right!

  242. Arya Dunyett
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    I watched this scene in the sept, and empathized with Cersei.

    But in my own experience, I didn’t sexually respond when the “attack” began.

    Unlike Cersei, I refused to kiss the man.

    Unlike Cersei, I tried to move my body away from my husband instead of into his hips, like Cersei does.

    I never welcomed the sex. Ultimately, Cersei appears to respond in kind.

    This is coersion, but I hesitate to call it rape.

    Whatever it was, it bodes ill.

  243. Jimbo
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    The rest of the internet has offered their opinions, so here is mine:

    1. Taking the director at his word, that he filmed a scene that was supposed to be interpreted as consensual sex……he failed. As a result he has undone a lot of the previous good character work on show-Jamie.

    2. The portrayal of the Thenn characters is borderline cartoon villain. I don’t understand why they would dial-down Daario’s extravagance and yet at the same time boost the cheese-factor up to 11 for the Thenns.

  244. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    jerk of thrones,

    People like to (falsely) claim that feminists hate men, but over and over again misogynists prove that they are the ones who have a dim view of men.

    Not all men like rape. You’re projecting.

  245. gewa76
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    I still think the biggest misstep of the series was the cheesy CGI smoke monster when they could have done a cooler shot of a shadow on the wall killing Renly, but that’s just me.

  246. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Wow. People are really clutching their pearls about how this site is ruined and the show is ruined.

    There’s been huge controversies here before. Remember the Dorne-race discussion? Remember the Dany crowd surfing scene? Give it a couple days and the site will go back to normal.

  247. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    Jimbo,

    I like the Thenns in the show. Yeah, I said it. Cartoon or not, they are more intimidating than the Wildlings Jon climbed the Wall with.

  248. Kilgore Tully
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    barak:

    You can’t possibly be serious.

    100%

    I should add that it is much more the rating system’s fault, as opposed to the show’s, but I do think it is absolutely pathetic/mind-boggling that content warnings do not specify sexual violence. Content warnings are to warn people about content (sorry if this blows your mind). If you think rape victims don’t deserve a warning about sexually violent content…there’s nothing I can say to you that wouldn’t get me banned.

  249. Michael Tschuertz
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    That scene both in books & the show is and always was meant to be disturbing.
    I thought I say Cersei kissing him back and think it is a lil bit strange that it happen the way it did.
    I thought Martin wanted the reader in the book to have conflicting feeling about it. especialy with everything that comes after.

  250. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    Kilgore Tully,

    But if you can make the argument for what warnings need to be issued, where do you stop? My brother was killed by a drunk driver, should there be a warning for me that someone gets killed this way? The sexual content warning is sufficient. It warns you of not only something you may like but may be disturbing.

  251. House Nieder
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that some of the people so upset about Jaime’s “character assassination” are some of the same people who spell his name “Jamie”.

  252. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Having the Wildlings sack a village and the Thenns dine on them will cause realistically insurmountable obstacles to future plans imo. It was avoided in the book by having Mole Town evacuated. An attack on Mole Town would have been better in the show. Mole Town is a pimple on the ass of a military base. The small folk wouldn’t feel empathy. That village represented the heartland. The small folk will never forgive or forget that deed.

  253. Lex
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger:
    Wow.People are really clutching their pearls about how this site is ruined and the show is ruined.

    There’s been huge controversies here before.Remember the Dorne-race discussion?Remember the Dany crowd surfing scene?Give it a couple days and the site will go back to normal.

    And that’s just from last year. There have been controversies bigger than this, since Season 1. This site (and the show) will go on… :)

  254. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    House Nieder:
    I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that some of the people so upset about Jaime’s “character assassination” are some of the same people who spell his name “Jamie”.

    people spell things wrong, that’s not that fascinating. I spell things wrong alwaise. Elleria, Aria, Tomen, Dario, Mireene, Podd, Arial, Jamy, Shay, Humpherdink…

  255. Marcin Bartnicki
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    I find it somewhat funny that the people who a week ago were cheering the death of a teenager because he was evil (and definitely not talking about the alleged killer’s “character assassination”), now talk about character assassination of Jaime, even though rape (if it was rape) is a lesser crime to murder and Cersei is at least as evil as Joffrey.

    Is rape wrong? Yes. But Jaime did not act purely out of lust – his actions were aimed to punish Cersei as well. That does not make it right but that certainly does not make Jaime’s “redemption arc” destroyed – he is just a complex character.

  256. Tatters
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:40 am | Permalink

    Taylor,

    I dont remember that on the show.
    Where did was Jaime anti-rape on the show?

  257. JimJamJoom
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    I dont care if they changed or not changed the scene from the books but as a TV viewer I am confused about his motives in that rape scene!

    When he said “you’re a hateful woman” was he angry that she had asked him to kill their own brother? so he wanted to retaliate? Or just becos she had been refusing him over the weeks and he was just super horney/needed sex???

    It felt so out of place and time for me to try to understand from his perspective!

    I guess if their initial kissing would continue without her pulling back and turn into sex by the corpse it would have made much more sense (still disturbing though) as opposed to a sudden change of mood by both of them resulting in an incest rape!!!

  258. Marcin Bartnicki
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Damp Hairy:
    Jaime: I hated when Kings I served raped their wives.Lost my swordhand to prevent Brienne’s rape, LOL nevermind I don’t care Imma rape Cercei.

    Damp Hairy,

    Yes, because if a guy hated when people are murdered undeservingly, and then saves one person from being murdered, he will never ever kill another person (no matter how evil).

  259. Marcin Bartnicki
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:47 am | Permalink

    JimJamJoom:
    I dont care if they changed or not changed the scene from the books but as a TV viewer I am confused about his motives in that rape scene!

    When he said “you’re a hateful woman” was he angry that she had asked him to kill their own brother? so he wanted to retaliate? Or just becos she had been refusing him over the weeks and he was just super horney/needed sex???

    It felt so out of place and time for me to try to understand from his perspective!

    I guess if their initial kissing would continue without her pulling back and turn into sex by the corpse it would have made much more sense (still disturbing though) as opposed to a sudden change of mood by both of them resulting in an incest rape!!!

    Exactly. For me, Jaime’s rape of Cersei was as much (if not more) an act of retaliation against Cersei as it was an act of lust. Again, to reiterate, Cersei is an evil person – she is the one who created the monster Joffrey is (and whose death people cheered last week). If you think it is ok to murder someone but it is not ok to rape that very same person, you have a really screwed up moral compass.

  260. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Tatters,

    Brienne: “If you were a woman you’d let them do what they wanted? You wouldn’t resist?”

    Jaime: “If I was a woman I’d make them kill me. Thank the Gods I’m not”

    And of course, he later saved her from rape, which resulted in the loss of his hand.

  261. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    An excellent read about the Jaime/Cersei scene and the resulting discussion surrounding it. Written by Myles McNutt http://cultural-learnings.com/2014/04/21/game-of-thrones-jaime-cersei-rape/#more-7889

    Here are some excerpts:

    McNutt: “Inevitably, the cultural conversation around issues like rape—or any kind of issue of sociocultural politics surrounding a popular television series online—will be dismissed as overthinking, and in this case as “feminist propaganda” or some other misrepresentation. It’s a sad state of affairs, but I’ve come to accept that even addressing issues like rape when engaging with a show like Game of Thrones will result in defensive statements that—knowingly or unknowingly—step into a minefield of misogyny…”

    and he quotes director Alex Grave’s interpretation of the scene

    McNutt: “This conception of the scene is some insidious nonsense. It suggests that Cersei’s stern objections are foreplay that gets the two characters revved up for what becomes consensual sex over time. Now, Graves is also cited as referring to the scene as rape in The Hollywood Reporter, so he isn’t arguing that it wasn’t a rape. However, he’s leaving room for rape to turn into consensual sex, and works to reframe the act as rape as one more messed up part of this already messed up relationship (which isn’t helped by The Hollywood Reporter‘s insistence on using the word “taboo” to describe the sequence, foregrounding the incest/corpse and making it seem as though rape is only a stigma based on a lack of cultural acceptance)”

  262. jwal
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:29 am | Permalink

    Chriss,

    it actually doesn’t matter if she does or not. From Jaime’s side, he raped her. If she had said “stop, you’re raping me” he wouldn’t have stopped. I’m not inferring, that’s what he’s doing. He says “I don’t care”. His actions say everything

  263. Jamesl
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:49 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I like the Thenns in the show too, their presence makes the Wildlings far more interesting.

  264. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:51 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    The reason why Jaime wants to protect Brienne from rape before but he is willing to rape Cersei is because his unhealthy obsession and addiction to Cersei brings out the worst in him. He is willing to do something that he knows is terribly wrong in order to satisfy his lust for Cersei.

    It’s the same reason why he forced himself on her even though she said no, even though she was beating against his chest as he kissed her. And btw, I’m referring to the scene in the books, not the show.

  265. paul
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    The major f*** up they made was not having joff’s body tumbling onto their gyrations!

  266. JamesL
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:59 am | Permalink

    Lex,

    Not really, this is by far the biggest negative reaction to something the show has done, much more so than any of the other supposed controversies. Usually the other controversies remain discussed in the GoT fandom but this scene is being analyzed and discussed all over the internet. And unlike the other controversies this has gotten an almost unanimous negative reaction. It’s a shame too because with the exception of that scene this season has been fantastic.

  267. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    The guy was held captive for months, killed his cousin and Karstark kids, lost his swordhand and all to get back to his sister… Who spurred his advances.

    I’m sure the loss of their first child weighed heavily on him as well and all those emotions flooded him when he saw his sister/lover crying over their son. So he tried to comfort her the only way he knew how.

    If any of you are holding on to your black/white ideas this isn’t that kind of show. It’s full of grey areas

    And if you think there is a happy ending you really haven’t been paying attention

  268. KG
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:25 am | Permalink

    Yep. Glad to see you’re so self-aware. Now go away.

    jerk of thrones: Yes i’m so unusual and sick. NO ONE likes to see humilation/dom scenes. Everyone who enjoys watching them is SUCH a bad person.

    I’m such a freak. I should be driven off the internet.

  269. Strejda
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:07 am | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    Nobody is misinterpreting the intent. We know what they WANTED it to be but they failed. That is literally the problem. You could excuse anything by saying “it’s not what they wanted”.

  270. Strejda
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:08 am | Permalink

    Matt,

    Lol, yeah, rape is okay if you had a bad day and the victim was being mean to you! Fuck off.

  271. Hodor Targaryen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:17 am | Permalink

    Matt,

    You’re disgusting. People like you make me depressed about the world.

  272. Annara Snow
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:34 am | Permalink

    Marcin Bartnicki:
    I find it somewhat funny that the people who a week ago were cheering the death of a teenager because he was evil (and definitely not talking about the alleged killer’s “character assassination”), now talk about character assassination of Jaime, even though rape (if it was rape) is a lesser crime to murder and Cersei is at least as evil as Joffrey.

    Oh, that rubbish argument again. Uh, I don’t know, it may have something to do with the fact that the teenager was a psychopathic king with absolute power who had tortured and killed people because he felt like it, and would have continued to do so, and his death ensured he wouldn’t be able to do it again?

    Just out of interest, do you also find it somewhat funny that the countries and state where capital punishment exists haven’t also made rape a legal method of punishment? Do you also think that soldiers, since their job is to kill people in battle, should also rape their enemies when they get a chance to?

  273. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:37 am | Permalink

    Strejda,

    Hodor Targaryen,

    KG,

    Also in same episode… Hound beats up an old man and steals his gold, LF has Dontos shot in the face after he saves Sansa and the Thenns brutally pillage a village(hey that rhymes) while telling a child how they are going to eat his parents

    But let’s be upset about forced sex between a brother and sister who screw each other all the time anyway……

    Priorities people get some

    Or maybe this show is too complex for you and your delicate sensibilities

  274. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 4:55 am | Permalink

    Theon’s dick-in-a-box,

    Exactly dude. I don’t understand why these people read and watch a gory fantasy series if they didn’t expect acts of sexual violence towards other people. Maybe these people are just fucked up in the head because they won’t accept the fact that Jaime is a spoiled little rich brat who can have any other woman in westeros but is really stupid to see the fact that Cersei is a horrible human being.

  275. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    It’s a good thing none of them did a tour in a combat zone or lived in another time or place besides the little apartment they call home now.

    “I just understand the way things are, how many Starks do they have to behead before you figure it out”

    Great quote

  276. Del
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    To be fair, how people perceive themselves is often at odds with what they’re truly like. At that moment with Brienne, he was more conscious of how he’d like to view himself due to how devoted to honor Brienne was. That’s kind of a major theme in the books in how she influences his thoughts and actions, and sort of ignites the desire to be more noble. That doesn’t actually mean that he’s truly noble at his core.

    I’m sure everyone here can recall at the very least one person they’ve met (likely many more) who’ve said or claimed to believe one thing, but had actions that implied otherwise.

  277. Amarien
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Maybe some one already mentioned this however, why did D&D not take advantage of the chance during the scene in the Sept where Jamie asks Cersei who exactly was it that sent the assassin to kill Bran Stark. Its been awhile since I read the books but I do recall it being in that chapter, in which Cersei reveals that it was Joffery and not her. Could of been a great moment for the Unsullied viewers.

  278. fiu
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    It is not “butterfly effect”. They filmed rape. It wouldn’t help if Jaime came back later.

  279. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:51 am | Permalink

    KG,

    I love kittens, since you’re so upset about the sept scene, I would like to hear your take on Theon almost getting butt raped by a bunch of guys.

  280. OldeCrone
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:52 am | Permalink

    Well, the whole relationship between Cersei and Jaime is tacky in both book and show….(to me) it did come across as being against her will in the scene referred above and from what I recall it was consensual in the books. I seem to recall a scene in the book (a bit later than this admittedly) where Cersei visits Jaime in his Goldcoat place with frolicking in the thistles in mind and he tells her “Not here” and she is not very pleased. On the whole I have tended to overlook minor changes from book to show but I’d have to say I preferred the book version in this case.

  281. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:01 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Good call! Or having his penis chopped off and mailed to his dad

    I can’t wait for this answer

  282. KG
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:07 am | Permalink

    I didn’t like that, either. Thanks for asking.

    Ser Pounce:
    KG,

    I love kittens, since you’re so upset about the sept scene, I would like to hear your take on Theon almost getting butt raped by a bunch of guys.

  283. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    Theon’s dick-in-a-box,

    Also most female reviewers on youtube that were addressing the sept controversy were making dick in a box jokes last season. I guess the guy deserves it because he betrayed the feminists man crush Robb Stark. DOUBLE STANDARDS YO.

  284. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Yep, it’s all good when things happen to men but if something happens to a lady, even the mother of madness, it’s bra burning estrogen fueled tampon time. Let’s get bitchy

  285. Ours is the furry
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Is being raped worse than being murdered in front of your mom? A lot of those people who cheered when Joffrey died are now upset that cersei, who in some ways is more evil, was raped. That’s kind of messed up.

  286. WinterRy71
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    I hope for everyones sake that next episode they show a scene between them where Cersei tells Jamie how amazing it was for him to be inside her once again.

  287. Del
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    KG,

    Theon’s dick-in-a-box,

    Can you both please act like adults and drop the playground bickering? It’s not contributing anything to the discussion.

    Thanks.

  288. Delta1212
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    The thing is… When you put something on TV, all you have to go by is what it looks like. What they showed was a rape. What they meant to show might have been something else, and knowing what I know from the books I could kind of see what they might have been going for, but absent getting into the characters’ heads, well, whatever they intended to show, they wound up showing Jaime raping Cersei.

  289. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    WinterRy71:
    I hope for everyones sake that next episode they show a scene between them where Cersei tells Jamie how amazing it was for him to be inside her once again.

    in my opinion that would just make things worse. If they wanted to show it was consensual by the end, which by this point pretty much everyone involved in it has said it wasnt, then they would probably have to do it in a lot more subtle way than that, since for Jaime and Cersei its not as big a deal as it is for us, because neither of them would call it rape as the definition of rape in the middle ages was completely different.
    Some people have said that this destroys Jaime’s character as he is against rape, since he stopped Brienne from getting raped earlier on. The answer is yes he is against rape, but he doesnt see this as rape, and neither would most characters if they were in the same position

  290. Chríss
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    jwal:
    Chriss,

    it actually doesn’t matter if she does or not.From Jaime’s side, he raped her.If she had said “stop, you’re raping me” he wouldn’t have stopped.I’m not inferring, that’s what he’s doing.He says “I don’t care”. His actions say everything

    You’re right, on it’s own it wouldn’t matter. However, I actually do think he would have stopped had she been more violent in her objections. She does wrap her legs around him. I think she does relent to him.

  291. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    This is getting as ridiculous as “who shot first”… By the way it was Han

  292. Arya's Nose
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    What redemption arc? No bathtub revelations excuse the fact he tried to murder a child and left him a cripple, so feck this character and feck his idiot apologists.

  293. Theon's dick-in-a-box
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    Del,

    Our blades are sharp

  294. wizardeyes
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    It really annoys me when people say that Jaime and Cersei are exactly alike. They have similarities; both narcissistic and vain and proud but in other ways they are nothing alike. Jaime isn’t cruel like Cersei. He would kill a man in battle but he wouldn’t torment or torture people. Cersei is naturally cruel and judgmental and prejudice. She pinched Tyrion when he was a baby to make him cry and Jaime told her to stop. Cersei has always hated Tyrion largely for being a dwarf, following her precious father’s example. Jaime has always loved Tyrion and has treated him kindly. Pretty much all of the bad things he’s done are because of Cersei. Pushing Bran out the window and murdering his captors so that he could get back to her. He joined the Kings Guard so he could be near her. He’s devoted his life to her while she hasn’t devoted hers to him.

    Jaime spent FFC trying to finish off a rebellion with as few casualties as possible while Cersei was plotting to have Margaery killed (a sixteen year old girl in the books remember). I can’t imagine Jaime sending people that displeased him to be experimented on by Qyburn.

  295. Rygar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Ah but is Jaime saying “I don’t care” that he is raping Cersei or is he saying “I don’t care” in response to Cersei saying “Stop, this isn’t right” (meaning sex in a holy place next to the corpse of their dead son). I doubt very much that Cersei would say “stop! raping me isn’t right!”

    The scene, like that in the book, is ambiguous. GRRM is the King of Ambiguity. He won’t even mention then word rape, probably because he doesn’t want to alienate his fan base by saying that from Cerseis POV it was rape.

    I think the scene is meant to be the same way in regards to confusing us and if they didn’t mean to than its a shame because it was done excellently. But part of the beauty of novels and songs and television is that you can interpret certain passages or scenes differently.

    I choose to interpret this, like I do in the book passage, as brutal fornication between two fucked up egotistical individuals. Its rape, its consent, its unholy, and most of all uncaring and a dismissal.

  296. Grey Ghost
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    I LOOOVE this scene in the book. It tells you so much about their relationship. Add a dash of moons blood and a dead Joff and it really pushed the boundaries. Twisted and naughty!

    The r word, which I hate, was not considered for one moment. Nor was it when I watched it last night as I saw it thru the characters eyes (who I know so well).

    Admittedly the scene wasn’t as good as it coulda been, but seein all this discussion n clarification n stuff tells me ONE THING… the show makers messed it up if that how it comes across. :/

    I shall judge them. Not Jaime. There was ZERO reason to bring him back pre-wedding and this just confounds that.

    I love the show its better than everything! But not the source material, so they best stop messin with the basics lol. It causes problems down the line.

  297. Ours is the Fury
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Everyone needs to chill out. Personally attacking & insulting posts will be deleted.

    And pardon me while I laugh at the notion that Robb Stark is the feminists’ man crush.

  298. Shan
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    This is the largest overreaction in the history of mankind. Nobody is going to hate jaime and the scene isn’t a big deal. It’s a very tiny deviation from the book when you consider that Cersei was also fighting back in the book and that she also started to give in in the show.

    No unsullied that I know thought anything of it. And jaime is not some big gleaming golden hero anyway. I didn’t even realize this was a thing until I went on this website. It is not a big deal AT ALL.

  299. wizardeyes
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Shan,

    Well that’s your opinion but the internet has pretty much shat itself, my unsullied friends were confused by the scene and my sullied friend has threatened to never watch the show again.

  300. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    My apologies to those I may have offended with previous remarks I just do not understand some peoples thought process hence forth I shall change by screen name and play as nice as I can

    Signed,
    The poster formerly known as
    Theon’s Dick-In-A-Box

  301. Our Blades Are Sharp
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Ours is the Fury,

    It is funny, we all know feminists and non alike swoon over my lord Ramsay

  302. Jaison Biagini
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    i’ve read all the books and o be honest i have zero problem with it. i also don’t see jaime as a character on the path to redemption.thhe losing of his hand is more the catalyst for any change. not really a natural transition. if h still hand both hands he’d still be just as big a douche. it’s also a quicker way to end any chance of a reconciliation between the two. if you look at him latter on is he really redeemed? he still levels threats and looks for the easiest/quickest way out of situations. so no, it’s not a big deal.

    if i’m going to complain about something it’s all the scenes in the brothel!! in the book there were brothel scenes, mostly because that’s where tyrion hid shaye. but it wasn’t little fingers. there was 1? maybe 2 scenes in little fingers bethel in the books. way too many scenes that weren’t in the book and served little propose story wise. maybe i’m not remembering right but i don’t think roz was ever heard from after leaving winterfeld. i don’t think pod was given time there. i’m all for nudity, but i’d have rather had scenes that were omitted over these!! how about heronhall? that was monumentally different!! or were is jane? the northmen had to have left kings landing. no fake a rya? so for me that scene going from cersi not totally liking having sex nearly on top of jeffy to being a bit rapey. don’t bother me!

  303. Sitareh
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    I don’t think Cersei was in an emotional state to give consent in the book either; even if she did say yes – after a lot of protesting. It wasn’t pretty in the book and it wasn’t pretty here and I don’t think it ruins Jaime all that much. The beauty the series is its shades of gray, nothing is black and white, there are no cookie cutter heroes or villains.

    I don’t think the writers, D&D or GRRM are endorsing rape by scenes like this. Nobody is saying “it’s ok and it was Cersei’s fault” I think that taking this as a cape for an anti-rape campaign is pretty much misplaced and ridiculous. Is like saying they’re condoning incest and adultery and prostitution and torture because we’re seen a whole lot of those too.
    If this kind of situations bother you then don’t watch, simple as that.

    Is the kind of show (and books) that get gritty and morally ambiguous; it’s not meant to be a paragon of good lifestyle.

    Jaime might be “on a road to redemption” but he’s not meant to be the unblemished hero some of you seem to be expecting – I haven’t seen one of those in ASOIAF, maybe I’m just bad at character reading.
    Even the “classic hero” (in GRRM’s own words) Jon Snow makes some pretty morally gray choices in his time.
    In my opinion it was a brilliant episode and I’m enjoying the show. I, for one, don’t want to see a carbon copy of a book when it’s taken to screen.

  304. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    fiu,
    GRRM meant “butterfly effect” in the sense that one change in a story has multiple ramifications later in time, in this case Jamie returning weeks before Joffrey’s death instead of right after. The use of the term is correct.

  305. Northern Lass
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Shan:
    This is the largest overreaction in the history of mankind. Nobody is going to hate jaime and the scene isn’t a big deal. It’s a very tiny deviation from the book when you consider that Cersei was also fighting back in the book and that she also started to give in in the show.

    No unsullied that I know thought anything of it. And jaime is not some big gleaming golden hero anyway. I didn’t even realize this was a thing until I went on this website. It is not a big deal AT ALL.

    It may not be a big deal to you. To me it was. It was cheap and poorly cut, if the director’s intention was truly to make it seem consensual. But then I have actually been raped, so maybe my views on the subject, and having it used lightly as a plot device, are probably different than yours. I also doubt you had the pleasure of reliving being beaten and chocked and violated repeatedly in your dreams that night like I did. So, I am glad that you live in such a carefree world, where crappy editing and casual violence is NBD, but please keep in mind that many people are not as lucky and try not to be so glib about other people’s opinions.

  306. axia777
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    Here is a great cut from a great article.

    Much has been made, and will continue to be made, about George R.R. Martin’s Westeros, a violent, dark, dangerous world, especially for women. And it’s true, Martin’s A Storm Of Swords has that same sex scene, complete with the empty sept and dead boy-king. Except for one crucial difference. Cersei wants to have sex.

    Here’s the text:

    She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”
    There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”
    “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.
    “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

    THAT IS WHY THIS SCENE IN THE SHOW IS SO WRONG.

    Cersei did not refuse sex in the books because she did not want to, but because she was afraid that they would get caught. It was not rape, it more incest. Under their dead sons corpse. Which shows that they are both screwed up people, but that does not make Jaime a rapist.

  307. kyle
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Kilgore Tully,

    it’s a show you dumbass, not a rape infomercial.

  308. Dave
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Guess I’m in the minority here but I think season 4 is horrific. I think it’s the worst 3 episodes I’ve seen thus far to start a season. It is bordering on complete fan fiction territory at the moment. And the dialogue is terrible. It’s modern like.

    I didn’t like anything about episode 3. While everyone is arguing about the rape/non rape scene, the thing that bothered me the most was the Sam/Gilly scenes. Sam thinks Gilly is in danger of being raped at Castle Black so decides to move her to a brothel instead? What the hell? I guess that’s okay though, because they don’t rape at Mole’s Town…the pay for it, and he’ll make sure no one pays for Gilly.

    Oh my god. Really?

  309. Saar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get what all the controversy is about, to be honest.
    I don’t want to sound that I don’t think that what Jaime did was wrong, because it definately did, but I expected a much worse scene reading all of your comments.
    I really imagined a horrible scene, where Cersei would be crying an screaming, and people keep saying here that in the books Cersei was more concerned to be caught, but it’s exactly that in the show.
    The line she says to Jaime is: Jaime no not here…
    It definately looked like rape, but I highly doubt Cersei thinks she has been raped or something.
    To me the scene seemed more like Cersei didn’t want to have sex there, because she was afraid of getting caught, but Jaime didn’t want to wait anymore and he didn’t even care anymore if they would be caught.
    People saying that they butchered Jaime’s character are a bit overreacting, I mean Jaime has done some good things, but he has done a lot of really bad things, for example trying to kill Bran etc…
    I mean did anyone forget those scenes where he was tormenting Catelyn? I certainly haven’t and I do think Jaime deserves to die

  310. bsofakind
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    Get over it. The deviation changed little in the overall story. Jaime and Cersi were repulsive, immoral degenerates in the books and in the HBO presentation. The over-all story is still intact and if HBO strayed to far George would open his mouth about it.

  311. Nicolai Hansen
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    The Bastard,

    They complain because it was a rape scene. In the book, that was a sexscene.

  312. Dash
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    I just want to say: Khal Drogo had a honeymoon as romantic as this, and nobody care 1 season after…

  313. Dekar
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    That was quite diplomatic

  314. Dash
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    And, if violent sex offend you, you should not watch a show labelled with advice for violent and sex content.

  315. Gytrash
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy,

    Exactly this. I am fine with the fact that show!Jaime is a different version of the character to book!Jaime. But this was completely out of character for any version of the character, and completely contrary to the direction his arc is meant to be moving in.

  316. Elphias
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    It wasn’t rape.

    What aired wasn’t rape.

    We don’t know their relationship. People are so confused.

    The guy has killed people for her, even attempted to murder a kid.

    He’s been back in King’s Landing for how long, and she won’t lay with him.

    Jaimie is frustrated. She is his weakness. She’s a manipulative cunt. He was going to take what he wanted. Maybe she likes it that way. Again, WE DON’T KNOW!

    She says no, he continues, she kisses him back and eventually gives in. This ends consensual. It is NOT rape. There was barely any struggle, no yelling or crying. There was no violence.

    Lol @ these comments. I was more upset about what Hound did. That seemed out of place.

    It’s not character murder. Jaimie is human.

    He might have been a douche and made some bad decisions, but he’s far from the worst person in the Game of Thrones universe.

  317. asfastasican
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one that saw show Jaime giving into his passion? It’s not like he raped a woman he has never been with before. He has only been with one woman. If anything it just reinforces how messes up the lannister family is. I felt like it was meant to be disgusting and romantic at the same time. It’s also pretty hard to prove if it was reluctant sex or non-consentual.

    On top of that, the director had the time of his life directing that scene and there is no doubt it was one of the best directed scenes in the entire show. Some of you really just love to hate on D&D when they take risks while consistently producing great results.

    This isn’t the first time they make alterations to jaime’s plot, but it didn’t hurt his character one bit. Honestly, the concept of creating an adaptation of a show, movie or book could be explained to a 2nd grader, but i guess some adults can’t seem to wrap their heads around it.

  318. The Winter Rose
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    OMG, all these delicious, delicious fandom tears. People, if you so much as use the term “trigger warnings” on a semi-regular basis, then this is just not the right series for you – maybe you’d be happier watching Once Upon a Time, instead.

    I just love how everyone is so up in arms over their perceived destruction over Jaime’s character… y’know… the incestuous knight who threw a small boy from a tower, killed his own cousin and broke his vows time and time again. Because, gee – he was such a winner to begin with… and yet somehow THIS is the straw that broke the camel’s back for some of you? LOL. Guys, if you’re not liking the series because you are unable to separate the TV series from the books, then just stop watching. Otherwise, stop taking everything so seriously, lighten up and just sit back and watch with a nice cool brew in hand.

  319. arden
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is still my favorite character and he is still an asshole.

  320. Cogito
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    Damp Hairy,

    Spot on!

  321. zor
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Saar,

    what is wrong is the showrunners used rape as a tool to punish Cersei… that’s whats wrong… which is so not the idea in the book. I’m okay with books being adapted to movies or television but if the show loses the idea along the way then the whole purpose and idea is lost.

  322. fuelpagan
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    zor,

    No they didn’t. This was in no way a punishment for Cersei. The audience didn’t get any pleasure out of watching Jaime rape her. With the early arrival of Jaime in KL and Cersei already rejecting him, it would go against character for Cersei to suddenly now want to have sex with Jaime for the first time since his return while next to her dead son. So if you still want the scene where Jaime screws Cersei for the first time after returning next to dead Joffrey, you have to change motivations around. Just because D&D have Jaime rape Cersei on TV does not mean they condone rape, or justify it in any way. Understanding why Jaime would react that way does not mean anyone thinks his actions are acceptable.

  323. Taena
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    I completely agree with how D&D handled this scene! The last season, you’re falling for Jaime a little bit so they have to remind the audience he’s not ‘lovable’!! In the books you’re reminded because this scene is a bit gross and previously you get his inappropriate arousal for Brienne but in the show they couldn’t do either of those, so they made this a bit ‘rapey’!! Just a reminder of how fucked up it is. In the book, he doesn’t give a shit she’s grieving, he is just lustful. In the show, he at least gives her a bit of a hug first lol! And Cersei often protests his advances in the show but then says that she is relieved her children are his! She’s conflicted! I think she always wants and doesn’t want him simultaneously..

  324. WompWomp
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Taena,

    And she definitely doesn’t want him when she’s reminded of his injury. I don’t think it was quite clear enough in that scene that seeing his golden hand repulsed her. It was easy to miss.

  325. MustachedCthulhu
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Brendan,

    and stop bothering us with your complaining too.

  326. zor
    Posted April 24, 2014 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    fuelpagan,

    Watch the “Inside the Episode” They’ll mention it as punishment

  327. downtime
    Posted April 25, 2014 at 3:48 am | Permalink

    The scene in the book is also rape – I can’t understand why viewers/readers think otherwise. Cersei says no, she beats her fists against his chest, she offers numerous reasons why he should stop – and Jamie ignores her, persisting until she responds the way he wants. Which is pretty much exactly what happens in the TV scene. It starts out non-consensual in both, and ends up with her getting into it. Call it rape or something else, but it plays out the same way in both the book and the show.

    If your objection is that the show “changed the scene to rape”, you need to show that the book scene isn’t rape. Or is it okay for a man to ignore a woman’s protests if he (a) disagrees with her reasoning or (b) knows she’ll come around eventually?

  328. drejekkor
    Posted April 27, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    These are two twisted characters with very little in the way of moral compasses; that Jaime is trying to become a redemptive sort, doesn’t negate that he fathered 3 children with his sister and killed many for the sheer thrill of it, and raped his sister. Cersei is a terrible mother, terrible human being Neither of them shies away from doing the unthinkable, immoral, etc…. just not sure given their characters why everyone is outraged that Jaime rapes her when nothing in their relationship has ever been moral, just or kind? This tv scene plays out the best it could given the other changes made from book to tv and does not in any way condone rape simply because they show it. The book scene seemed like rape to me as well with feeble submission not enough for me to call it otherwise. Maybe book readers think a feeble, whispered yes means it isn’t rape and were outraged by how it appeared on screen? They are both brutal people who do brutal things, to others and to each other. This was one of them.

  329. Inigo Montoya Martell
    Posted April 28, 2014 at 4:51 am | Permalink

    stumped on the confusion regarding the sexual deviance from these two creep lannisters. In the first novel where bran catches them in the act, there is a clear and repeated “no”, from Cersei, followed by another one. Don’t think it was in the show, but it was without a doubt in the book. I think this just implies that they don’t use sex as a normal couple in love or lust would. They know it’s deviant, and I think of it more as a show of power than anything comforting, or erotic, from both sides. Cersei has his nuts in her purse which is his one true weakness, and Jaime has(had) everything she has lusted after due to his position of power. I had no problem with the way it was shown. And like stated before by others it eliminated the Jaimie POV. As a viewer I felt Dany was more violated than the Queen Regent

  1. […] George R.R. Martin has responded to Jaime and Cersei’s scene in the comments on his personal b… This is worth a read for those who had the same reaction I did to this scene. There are no spoilers for future events from the books, only a description of what happened in the books versus what happened in the show. “The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.” […]


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