Nikolaj Coster-Waldau on Jaime Lannister’s “act of powerlessness”
By Lightbringer on in Interview.

In a new interview with The Daily Beast, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau shares his thoughts on last night’s controversial scene between Jaime and Cersei Lannister.

Nikolaj says that, like many of the viewers, he found it difficult to understand Jaime’s actions, ultimately calling it an act of powerlessness.

“To understand the psychology behind it, and why he goes as far as he does, was really difficult. To me it became, When does physical desire take over? It’s one of those things where he’s been holding it back for so long, and then out of anger he grabs her, and instinct takes over, and he lets loose. He says, I don’t care. He wants to not care. He has to connect to her, and he knows this is the most fucked up way for it to happen, but in that moment, he knows it’s all he can do. It’s an act of powerlessness.”

It was equally difficult to shoot, as Nikolaj wanted to convey the scene’s true intentions, as written by GRRM.

“It was tough to shoot, as well. There is significance in that scene, and it comes straight from the books—it’s George R.R. Martin’s mind at play. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, because I think that, for some people, it’s just going to look like rape. The intention is that it’s not just that; it’s about two people who’ve had this connection for so many years, and much of it is physical, and much of it has had to be kept secret, and this is almost the last thing left now. It’s him trying to force her back and make him whole again because of his stupid hand.”

Nikolaj also answers the definitive question: was it rape?

“Yes, and no. There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.”

For the full article visit The Daily Beast.


140 Comments

  1. Interior Bannisters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    sigh

  2. Rhymes with Freak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    I was really put off by the scene when I watched it last night – Jaime is my favorite character and this scene seemed more on the black scale of ‘black & grey morality’ – but on rewatching it this morning I can see a bit more ambiguity. Still not pretty, but not as ‘character-assassinating’ as I originally feared. I still wonder how the overall viewership will take it. Nikolaj is always great though.

    Not that it wasn’t disturbing in the book, but the POV of Jaime did make it seem more consensual. Well, enough of that, this has been talked to death in the other threads.

  3. Turncloak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    The moment where she gives in wasn’t clear at all In my opinion. Poor job overall in that scene in my opinion. I’m glad they are discussing it though

  4. D'Arcy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    I just want to say that the show has a different Jaime and Cersei. Cersei rejected Jaime in the show, when her son was still alive, because he got back to King’s Landing before the wedding.

    In the books, she’s completely wrecked at the funeral, and Jaime comes back in after Joffrey’s death, and in this version he’s part of what she has been missing for so long. So although she rejects at first, she consents after.

    So instead of the hand-chop affecting her after the wedding, like in the books, where she then kind of pushes Jaime away, it occurred before then, so Jaime has come back to King’s Landing to find that all he could think about has rejected him. And then in that scene, she has finally given him a taste again, just a kiss, and it throws him over the edge.

    I think we need to just take a step back and consider the differences. Would I have rather D&D left that scene as was? Yes. But is it so awful that they didn’t? Not so much. We’ll live. It was the end of Jaime and Cersei anyway.

  5. Jane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    He could have answered that last question better as it is giving mixed messages but then when you’re on the spot…

  6. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    My initial reaction was like many. That’s rape. And that was my first comment on the episode. But watching it again, I did see the complexity of the scene. It isn’t black or white. And the fact that the actor says he wanted to convey the true intent of the book sequence, and the director saying the intention was that she does consent in the end, is enough for me.

    Granted, I feel someone must have been super tired while giving the green light to the final cut on that edit. Because even someone like me, not prone to hyperbole, did take it the wrong way the first time around.

  7. vlad
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    It shouldn’t have been a question of if it is a rape or not!!! Jaime is adamantly against rape, he does everything he can to save Brienne, he still has remorse that he didn’t act when Aerys was raping his wife. What’s the worst is that the director thought that the scene was supposed to end with Cersei accepting it. Well, it just didn’t look like that!!! And that’s horrible directing. All my friends called it a rape.

  8. Dornish bastard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    The whole scene was just gross and unnecessary. Jamie is literally one of the only male characters who is actively against rape in the books, he was the one who as a Kingsgard wanted to do something to protect Queen Rhaella when the Mad king raped her, he hated Robert Baratheon for forcing himself on Cersei, he was the one who lied to prevent Brienne from getting raped, he was the one who told some guy (forgot his name) that he could sleep with Lancel’s wife IF she wanted to.
    Having Jamie rape Cersei is so out of character, it drives me nuts. It’s like having Ned Stark slap Arya across the face, HE JUST WOULDN’T!

  9. Lex
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    I saw the (minor) bit of ambiguity in the scene, but my friends didn’t see it and were pretty horrified. It seems most people saw it as flat out rape, and that the intended ambiguity was way too subtle. So yeah, I think they screwed up, which is really unfortunate and seems destined to overshadow what I thought was an amazing episode.

    This misstep is quite a blemish for Alex Graves, who just yesterday was being praised as the best current director on the show. I wish they could re-edit that scene, but I doubt it.

  10. Pau Soriano
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I actually was glad they made it more clear in the show. Jaime is not a nice person, capable of rape and much worse. They whitewashed him enough in the bathtube scene, nice to see they’re not afraid to go the other way

  11. anuhealani
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    He has to connect to her, and he knows this is the most fucked up way for it to happen, but in that moment, he knows it’s all he can do. It’s an act of powerlessness.

    What a gross thing to say. Methinks the woman your character brutalized is the actual powerless one in this situation, sweetie.

  12. Jeff O'Connor
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious:
    My initial reaction was like many. That’s rape. And that was my first comment on the episode. But watching it again, I did see the complexity of the scene. It isn’t black or white. And the fact that the actor says he wanted to convey the true intent of the book sequence, and the director saying the intention was that she does consent in the end, is enough for me.

    Granted, I feel someone must have been super tired while giving the green light to the final cut on that edit. Because even someone like me, not prone to hyperbole, did take it the wrong way the first time around.

    Likewise.

    Ahh, it feels good to be at a PC briefly. Broken record by now, I know, but my phone and this new design do not get along at all. I only mention it again because I have an ever-diminishing hope someone else will report the same problems I have and it won’t be ignored. D:

    Anyway, you said it as I would, Geek. At first I thought rape. As it stands, it’s basically rape. But there’s a complexity there that Graves, et al failed to really grasp that drives home all the nuances, all the strangeness between these two individuals throughout their lives together that accents it all with a psychology so dense, so screwy, that it’s something beyond rape.

    These two characters rape each other, and Jaime’s been mentally devoured by his sister his entire life. Am I excusing him? Absolutely not. Do I see how a man somewhat redeemed could crack like this around Cersei, his Achilles’ heel, as she continues to spin him asunder? Absolutely.

  13. Mimsy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    I’m more irritated with the Wildlings murder scene. Jaime/Cersei are whatever.. yes, Jaime was inappropriate, but that whole relationship is messed up anyway. I’m sure we’ll see a back to business resolution next week. I feel like that scene isn’t finished and it won’t be a big deal for Cersei in the end. She can take and force herself as much as Jaime can… she just does it in other ways.

  14. GeekFurious
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Lex:
    I saw the (minor) bit of ambiguity in the scene, but my friends didn’t see it and were pretty horrified. It seems most people saw it as flat out rape, and that theintended ambiguity was way too subtle. So yeah, I think they screwed up, which is really unfortunate and seems destined to overshadow what I thought was an amazing episode.

    It’s like a sporting event right now, bashing them for having Jaime “rape” his sister. It didn’t happen. But people who don’t care that it didn’t happen clearly care more about their agendas than the show and character they claim to love.

    If you’re out there promoting this as a rape, then you’re doing Jaime a disservice. And the actor. And the series you claim to love.

  15. fiu
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Cersey only sad no!!! All the time!!!! IT WAS A RAPE!!!!! with was not in the BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. Laura Stone
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Turncloak,

    AGREED. For me the director is who is responsible for how it was edited and put together. And it was rape. (I know, this is GoT which is super rapey, but it’s always in the context of This Is Wrong, These Are Bad Dudes. This was shot to be passionate and between two lovers. NOPE.)

  17. Louisa
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Forcing sex with someone who is out of their mind with grief is a good idea, not.

  18. Dikon Manwoody
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    I kind of think Jaime was expressing his love towards her after being denied for a while during that scene. I didn’t see any rape in there, Anyways great episode overall.

  19. Joshua Atreides
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    So…this was basically a fuck up on Alex Graves’ part? Its a pity the Unsullied will never know the intention of the scene. If of course this is the reason why the scene played the way that it did.

    Would it be morbidly hilarious if we get confirmation either through flashback or through the dialogue with Cersei (seen in the “Oathkeeper” promo in regards to her ordering him to deliver Sansa’s head) that she did give in?

  20. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Dornish bastard,

    He has done it before, read the books again, forcing himself on and shit.

  21. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    The kingslayer tells lies and now people feel upset about this?
    Jaime becomes kingsguard.
    Kills king.
    Dont tell me he doesnt lie.
    He would rape, under the circumstances.
    I think he got a inferiority complex when it comes to oaths and honor,
    he has to tell himself he capable of good, that he wouldnt rape,
    king and kinslaying is justified. He contradicts himself, therefore he wouldnt rape anyone but Cersei, he literally says he dont care.

  22. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Well at least Jaime was on time for his rape and not “late” for it. THAT would be controversy.

  23. Patchy Face
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is a complex character who we love and hate, back and forth – if there is a question whether it is rape or not’ it IS rape. There is no black and white on this one….in books, definitely saw it as consensual but not here.

  24. Lady Wolfsbane
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    I’m a personally a bit less upset now – and I will now strongly hope there can be a better editing job for the DVD version. If the actor thought it came of as ambiguous, and the director really did too… I think there was a massive failure in presentation. It turns out my my unsullied husband DID think Cercei could have easily pushed a one-armed man away if she wanted to.. so there must have been more confusion than I felt. But I still feel very differently than him…

  25. NousWanderer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    I believe you’re overstating things. I’m quite convinced that the act was a rape, but I also don’t think all rapes are identical, and I do think that there’s room to understand Jaime’s choice in a way which doesn’t involve sacrificing anything about his character (or arc). I think it’s entirely possible to hold the following views simultaneously:

    1) What happened was unquestionably a rape (regardless of anything done to recontextualize the event as it proceeds (e.g., Cersei eventually warming to it in the books, or myopic analyses of body language, etc.)).
    2) Jaime doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret what he did as an act of rape. Cersei doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret it as an act of rape, for that matter.
    3) The rape was psychologically intelligible, narratively worthwhile, contextually grey, and effectively written if by “effectively” we mean that it serves the goal of interesting or evocative characterization.

    In this comment – http://winteriscoming.net/2014/04/20/season-4-episode-3-breaker-chains-recap/#comment-389296 – I attempt to make a case for interpreting the act as a rape, but a wholly “understandable” rape from the ground level context inhabited by the characters. I don’t think this argument is an act of rape apologetics so much as it is a different and perhaps more nuanced look at the characters emerging in the Westerosi context, as opposed to our modern one. Objectively – yes, that’s rape. And yes, it’s wrong. But there’s a lot that’s going wrong between Jaime and Cersei, and a lot that has been wrong for quite some time.

    In other words, it’s possible to view it as an act of rape, accept it as an act of rape, feel that it was a strong scene, and not be pursuing any particular “agenda” by holding this view.

  26. Lex
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    PS the mobile site has gotten a whole lot worse. Now i cant even fix zoom, can’t even see entire line of text.

  27. Ser Pounce
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    I think Cersei wasn’t being raped and I think Jaime knew she wasn’t going to have sex with him unless he kills Tyrion so out of frustration he forced his way on her. Cersei also used sex on Jaime to make him join the kingsguard and she is the only woman he loves and has been with.

  28. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    The director and the writers seriously handled it wrong if they were going for ambiguity, as it was in the books. I’d say the percentage of readers who believe it was rape in the books is less than those who don’t, probably by a great amount too. I stand in the non-rape group, but am understanding of those who disagree. But the unsullied have no reason to believe it was anything but rape. I feel bad for Nicolaj and Lena having to discuss the scene. Unfortunately, this was a serious misstep that has made both book readers and unsullied angry and taken them out of the story. I’m afraid that they lost some viewers with the way it was handled.

  29. Queenofthorns
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    anuhealani,

    Look, it’s hard to read that stuff but it is an actors responsibility to play a character well and part of that is articulating the characters perspective regardless of what the actor as a moral person believes. That applies when playing a rapist or murderer as for any other character.

  30. Lex
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    it’s a shame because the main thing we should have taken out of the scene was the fact that they were right next to Joff’s corpse. According to the interview with the director, that was what he was going for too. but that was totally overshadowed by the rape, my unsullied friends said they weren’t even thinking about Joff being there. In my mind, that means they failed with this scene.

  31. rorschach-
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Jaime is a guy who threw a little kid out of the tower window because the kid saw him bang his own sister. He also stabbed Jory Cassel into eye, and let me remind you that he fully enjoyed the whole eyesocket penetration. I bet there are lot of other things he said and did that don’t really give a good impression about him. And people are now upset because he is so goody good guy that little rough sexy time with his insestuous sister is somehow out of the line?

    Jaime Eye-stabber-kid-thrower-sister-fricker Lannister…

    What?

  32. bebus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:43 pm | Permalink

    Ser Pounce,

    Incorrect. If a woman does not want to have sex with you, it is rape if you then have sex with her. Previously having consented to sex with someone is not a ticket to have sex with that person forever whenever you want. If she says “no” numerous times then it should be fairly obvious to you that she isn’t consenting, but even without her saying no if she hasn’t given clear consent it is rape. TV Jaime raped TV Cersei.

  33. zod
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Jeez.. can we move on already?

    They made a small mistake? Big deal. Those were TWO minutes out of 56 minutes of great dialogues and awesome visuals.. and yet that scene is the only thing that you all want to ramble about?

    What a sad “fan”base.

  34. NomadicDirewolf
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    it is possible to see the ambiguity,and view it from the way Jaime is thinking, and all what NCW is saying could well be true, but lets be honest, the scene didnt make that anyway near clear enough, and the majority of viewers don’t analyse it in that amount of detail, so to the majority of people it just looked like jaime being a bad person and raping her. It was a poorly done scene, if they had done to look more like what they are talking about then it would have been a lot better, more insightful scene

  35. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Yes yes yes you proved your point and know what is rape and what is not rape and how character development works. But, do you know if Cersei was on her period?

  36. bebus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer: Jaime doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret what he did as an act of rape. Cersei doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret it as an act of rape, for that matter.

    And that’s (according to the preview) exactly what’s going to happen, it looks like, and that is actually worse than the rape itself. Most of our societal problems with sexual assault right now are due to men thinking that sex is their due, and that it is owed to them, and that unless a woman is actually biting and clawing and punching them it “isn’t rape” if she just resists a little or says “no”. Cersei ending up being ok with it reinforces this false and dangerous notion. It just shows that D&D and the folks in charge of this particular ep are part of our screwed up societal norms and are out of touch with actually giving a crap about women. See this: https://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/effect-of-rape-culture-girls-view-sexual-violence-as-normal/

  37. The Kingslayer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    D&D hate Jaime and Stannis, because they have Tyrion aka Jesus, Dany mrs. Freedom and sweet Jony Snow. they don’t give crap about other characters.

  38. fiu
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Dornish bastard:
    The whole scene was just gross and unnecessary. Jamie is literally one of the only male characters who is actively against rape in the books, he was the one who as a Kingsgard wanted to do something to protect Queen Rhaella when the Mad king raped her, he hated Robert Baratheon for forcing himself on Cersei, he was the one who lied to prevent Brienne from getting raped, he was the one who told some guy (forgot his name) that he could sleep with Lancel’s wife IF she wanted to.
    Having Jamie rape Cersei is so out of character, it drives me nuts. It’s like having Ned Stark slap Arya across the face, HE JUST WOULDN’T!

    2000 % agree with you

  39. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    rorschach-,

    Well, Jaime doesn’t stab Jory in the books. He just orders Ned’s men killed. Men who, by the way, were armed. Comparing that or tossing Bran to this is different. It’s complicated. I’m not saying Jaime is Ned or that he is a morally perfect character, he’s not. However, the man does have a code in the books. Some say he is a hypocrite and is lying to himself, but I found his POV chapters consistent enough that I truly believe that he isn’t the monster some characters believe he is.

  40. The Kingslayer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    rorschach-:
    Jaime is a guy who threw a little kid out of the tower window because the kid saw him bang his own sister. He also stabbed Jory Cassel into eye, and let me remind you that he fully enjoyed the whole eyesocket penetration. I bet there are lot of other things he said and did that don’t really give a good impression about him. And people are now upset because he is so goody good guy that little rough sexy time with his insestuous sister is somehow out of the line?

    Jaime Eye-stabber-kid-thrower-sister-fricker Lannister…

    What?

    Jaime didn’t kill Jory. it was another bullshit from D&D.

  41. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: It’s like a sporting event right now, bashing them for having Jaime “rape” his sister. It didn’t happen. But people who don’t care that it didn’t happen clearly care more about their agendas than the show and character they claim to love.

    If you’re out there promoting this as a rape, then you’re doing Jaime a disservice. And the actor. And the series you claim to love.

    Nobody is doing anyone a disservice. The show never made it clear that Cersei eventually consented. You shouldn’t have to over the scene with a fine toothed comb to find hints that there might have been consent. The fault for that lies with D&D for not giving Cersei the lines from the books that make it consent and with Graves for not having Cersei do something non-verbal that makes it clear she is consenting.

    What we saw onscreen fits the legal definition of rape in any democratic country. One can hardly blame the audience for interpreting rape as rape.

    I’ll be able to move past it in the show, but this controversy is bringing out the rape apologist in a lot of people (I’m not saying you) and it is very disturbing.

  42. Nancy
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’ll be curious to see if they do lose viewers, I guess next week’s ratings will tell that tale. But I read the books, I remember the scene (because it icked me out in the books, them getting it on in front of Joffrey’s corpse..ewww) and Cersei has initial reservations as to the timing and place but gives in. Jaime proposes to her prior to that, for crying out loud. This scene was rape. She is saying no the whole time and he is going “I don’t care..” If it was meant to infer consent at the end, the show did a terrible job of communicating that.
    I never bought Jaime as a good guy. I thought of him as one of GRRM’s complex characters. He’s done good things but also he has done bad things too…but one thing he wasn’t is a rapist. Cersei is no picnic herself, but she doesn’t deserve that either!

  43. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Dornish bastard:
    The whole scene was just gross and unnecessary. Jamie is literally one of the only male characters who is actively against rape in the books, he was the one who as a Kingsgard wanted to do something to protect Queen Rhaella when the Mad king raped her, he hated Robert Baratheon for forcing himself on Cersei, he was the one who lied to prevent Brienne from getting raped, he was the one who told some guy (forgot his name) that he could sleep with Lancel’s wife IF she wanted to.
    Having Jamie rape Cersei is so out of character, it drives me nuts. It’s like having Ned Stark slap Arya across the face, HE JUST WOULDN’T!

    I don’t see how Jaime is one of the only male characters to be against rape. Rape is against the law in the seven kingdoms and is met with hangings, geldings or being sent to the Wall. It is not accepted in the patriarchal society. I don’t think Ned, Robb, Davos, Jon Snow, Stannis, Jorah, Jeor, Loras, Oberyn, Doran, Samwell etc etc would agree with rape. GrrM often seems to use the fact that someone is a rapist to make us hate them very quickly. The Mountain and his men, the bloody mummers etc. It’s like a short-hand for hating a character which is why its a shame the show has done this with Jaime.

  44. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer:
    D&D hate Jaime and Stannis, because they have Tyrion aka Jesus, Dany mrs. Freedom and sweet Jony Snow. they don’t give crap about other characters.

    I’ve never seen them as hating Jaime. I just think that particular scene was really poorly executed.

  45. Connie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    Thank you. You articulated everything that I felt about the scene.

  46. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer:

    GeekFurious,

    I believe you’re overstating things. I’m quite convinced that the act was a rape, but I also don’t think all rapes are identical, and I do think that there’s room to understand Jaime’s choice in a way which doesn’t involve sacrificing anything about his character (or arc). I think it’s entirely possible to hold the following views simultaneously:

    1) What happened was unquestionably a rape (regardless of anything done to recontextualize the event as it proceeds (e.g., Cersei eventually warming to it in the books, or myopic analyses of body language, etc.)).
    2) Jaime doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret what he did as an act of rape. Cersei doesn’t/won’t necessarily interpret it as an act of rape, for that matter.
    3) The rape was psychologically intelligible, narratively worthwhile, contextually grey, and effectively written if by “effectively” we mean that it serves the goal of interesting or evocative characterization.

    In this comment – http://winteriscoming.net/2014/04/20/season-4-episode-3-breaker-chains-recap/#comment-389296 – I attempt to make a case for interpreting the act as a rape, but a wholly “understandable” rape from the ground level context inhabited by the characters. I don’t think this argument is an act of rape apologetics so much as it is a different and perhaps more nuanced look at the characters emerging in the Westerosi context, as opposed to our modern one. Objectively – yes, that’s rape. And yes, it’s wrong. But there’s a lot that’s going wrong between Jaime and Cersei, and a lot that has been wrong for quite some time.

    In other words, it’s possible to view it as an act of rape, accept it as an act of rape, feel that it was a strong scene, and not be pursuing any particular “agenda” by holding this view.

    Quoted for posterity. NousWanderer’s thoughts on the subject are unmatched as of this writing, on this and the other thread.

  47. Zack
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious: It’s like a sporting event right now, bashing them for having Jaime “rape” his sister. It didn’t happen. But people who don’t care that it didn’t happen clearly care more about their agendas than the show and character they claim to love.

    If you’re out there promoting this as a rape, then you’re doing Jaime a disservice. And the actor. And the series you claim to love.

    “No”
    “Stop”
    “I don’t want to”

    If any variant on any one of those phrases is uttered by either party and the partner ignores it, rape is happening. To pretend this wasn’t rape is to betray a pretty misogynistic worldview.

  48. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Tatters:
    The kingslayer tells lies and now people feel upset about this?
    Jaime becomes kingsguard.
    Kills king.
    Dont tell me he doesnt lie.
    He would rape, under the circumstances.
    I think he got a inferiority complex when it comes to oaths and honor,
    he has to tell himself he capable of good, that he wouldnt rape,
    king and kinslaying is justified. He contradicts himself, therefore he wouldnt rape anyone but Cersei, he literally says he dont care.

    Jaime is honest to a fault. He doesn’t lie in the text even when confronted by Cat.

    And he is almost uniformly against rape at repeated stages in the book.

  49. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    The Kingslayer,

    You are watching the wrong show.

  50. WeirwoodTreeHugger
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    From RAINN:

    3.Did both participants agree to take part? Did someone use physical force to make you have sexual contact with him/her? Has someone threatened you to make you have intercourse with them? If so, it is rape.
    •It doesn’t matter if you think your partner means yes, or if you’ve already started having sex — “No” also means “Stop.” If you proceed despite your partner’s expressed instruction to stop, you have not only violated basic codes of morality and decency, you may have also committed a crime under the laws of your state (check your state’s laws for specifics).

    A lot of people seem to be confused about what is and isn’t consent. It’s well worth reading the whole page. https://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

  51. Geraltt
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2608670/MoS-DIARY-From-Thrones-Rome-hail-Sean-new-Caesar.html

    Sean Bean is going to play Julius Caesar in a film called “Caesar”.
    And he’s not the only Game of Thrones actor in it.
    According to the imdb it also has Isaac Hempstead-Wright as Octavius, John Bradly as Casca, Mackenzie Crook as Cassius and Indira Varma as Calpurnia.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3185182/

  52. WompWomp
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    jamiessword,

    She didn’t want to be, and yet she was. That’s what makes it “a bit of a rape.”

    However, the issue is not so black and white, as some astute users spell out, such as NousWanderer above. Using rape as a startling buzzword and not as a starting point when analyzing the scene limits one’s interpretation of it and brings one’s understanding of the characters as portrayed in the series into question.

  53. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie,

    He lied when he swore that oath, and he has hidden the truth his whole life. He lied to the everyone about Brans fall.
    Dishonesty is the opposite of honesty.

  54. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    you know guys rape is very popular in real life between couples and married people right? sometimes one person wants sex more and other is less

  55. NousWanderer
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    bebus,

    I don’t believe the show has any responsibility to comment upon or reflect a modern understanding of rape.

    For that matter, while I think all acts of rape are equally wrong, I don’t think all rape is equally bad. This is the common distinction between the moral wrongness of an act and the ethical wrongness of having acted in a particular way. Consider the various degrees of responsibility we associate with acts of killing if you desire a real world exemplification of this concept.

    And so I really do think that there’s plenty of fucked up baggage in the Cersei/Jaime relationship to make a precise ethical measurement of this particular act of rape a confounding but largely worthless prospect. Instead, what does this moment say about the characters?

    I think Coster-Waldau speaks truthfully about his character when he describes the act as one of desperation and powerlessness in the face of his newfound impotence as a warrior and cruel rejection by Cersei. This sense of powerlessness is simply aggressively transferred in a familiar way. Jaime and Cersei have had aggressive, resistant sex hundreds of times. Cersei has manipulated and functionalized Jaime hundreds of times. This scene is where things snap.

    This in itself brings great complexity to the typical, binary understanding of rape as an act of pure evil. This latter view is perhaps a necessary position when confronting the reality of rape as it manifests in the lives of those we know and love, or our own lives, but it is not absolutely necessary when seeking to understand fictional creations like Jaime and Cersei. The more holistic viewpoint we’re given into the psychologies of these characters (by virtue of the fact that we encounter them in an artistic medium) allows for an understanding of rape – and in this rape in particular – in a way we can rarely afford when attending to the real needs of real victims of the real act in the real world.

    It would make sense if Cersei did or didn’t eventually express consent in the books. It would make sense if Cersei did or didn’t eventually express consent in the show. Jaime and Cersei – as a pairing – have sufficient history and complexity that anything which proceeds from the act of rape is psychologically intelligible the context of how they’ve treated each other up until that point. If Cersei expresses consent, it’s perhaps because she’s understandably frightened…or even understandably relieved to encounter her former lover in a moment of sick, familiar catharsis, despite the circumstances and her initial protestations. If Cersei fails to express consent, it’s understandable that Jaime – given everything that has already transpired, and the long history they share – might ignore it. This doesn’t send the message that “ignoring protests” or “ignoring the word ‘no’” is okay. I think that people who do, in fact, harp on that idea in this context are motivated by a preexisting agenda.

    Rape is a valid subject for discourse, and a valid concept to depict in art. I don’t see how this moment changes Jaime’s character in the least. If we forced them to absorb our modern understanding of consent, I still think both Jaime and Cersei would be quick to acknowledge that rape as it occurs (occurred) between them is a very different thing than the hypothetical rape of Brienne by Locke’s men. This acknowledgement doesn’t make the act itself less bad on an objective scale. It just means that the two rapes come from very different places.

  56. Greenjones
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    Of course they don’t hate Jaime. And Jaime and Cersei have scenes next episode, I imagine the effect of what happened will be clarified. As for the change itself, I don’t have a strong opinion on it because I think their relationship is already so screwed up and immoral that it is perfectly plausible to me that it would be taken to this place. I do wish they’d never made this change however because of how annoying and politicised the backlash is.

  57. chives
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Great scene. And truly shows the points to which both characters have been pushed. It’s the crux of Cersie’s recent and Jaime’s extended trauma, obviously unpleasant and will have (to a certain extent known) ramifications.

    I try not to let the bleeding hearts club get to me. The reaction to this scene really only reinforces how perverted these self appointed activists are.

    Nary a peep over all the other horrible things in this fantasy world (and rape is horrible). Yet crying bloody murder now? Your moral compass if broken & you need to grow up.

  58. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    People who don’t understand the difference between Jaime killing Jory in a melee in the street and raping Cersei wildly misunderstand his character. Whether or not you agree, I think the BookJaime there is a substantial diffefence between killing someone in a fight and raping someone he loves.

    No one here is trying to whitewash him (though it’s a curious decision to blacken him twice now, with Alton’s scene being the other especially when the show continuously to repeatedly whitewash Tyrion and Dany). Jaime is incredibly grey. Showing his faults are fine. The act with Bran is horrible, and easily the worst thing he does in the books. There’s no justifying that to me. But it’s still interesting in the books to see his evolution from there in the books, part of which the show just lit a fire to for no reason. People aggravate me when they talk about Jaime because they aren’t willing to look at him in sum. They either want to explain away his every action or ignore his good acts because of the bad that he’s done. My biggest problem is Jaime absolutely has a code. He’s willing to do anything, good or bad, to protect those he loves. This destroyed that.

  59. Jared
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    NousWanderer,

    I already mentioned this in a reply to your comment on the Recap thread, but I thought that I’d post it here as well, seeing as that thread is already over 450 comments and my response will probably get lost in the shuffle over there.

    I agree 1000% with everything that you said in the comment you linked to and with your words here. Thank you for providing a balanced, logical, well-reasoned interpretation of a dark and complicated scene. It’s discussions like these that we should be having, as opposed to pointing accusing fingers and making vicious, irrational generalizations about the writers, the characters, and each other. I’m not accusing anyone in particular of such behavior, but speaking more generally. As is almost always unfortunately the case, the furious screams of a passionate minority are trying to drown out the more complicated feelings that the rest of us are having. Unfortunately, the first instinct of the collective Internet over the past 24 hours seems to have been to spill their gut feelings in the heat of the moment, or worse, to consciously take the moment as an opportunity to perch their high horse on top of their soapbox and cry out “Shame!” for all the world to hear. Neither one of these courses of action is conducive to an effective interpretation of the scene, and the reasoned discourse that should result from said interpretation. Your thoughts have the substance to place the scene and its consequences in its proper perspective, and ideally, they would form the basis for this conversation. Instead, I fear that they’ll end up getting lost in the midst of an irrational shouting match with less-thoughtful people ranting about this scene ruining the character and/or the show and accusing anyone who attempts to analyze the scene more deeply of hateful, unsubstantiated, and utterly nonsensical things like being “pro-rape”. It’s an unfortunate dynamic that I’ve witnessed in less civil forums than this one, and one I fear will never change until people either grow thicker skins or are willing to temper their passion with logic and willingness to listen. Nevertheless, thank you for your words. You’ve certainly given me a lot to think about, and hopefully others as well. Cheers.

  60. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Tatters,

    He told Catelyn to her face what he did to Bran. How did he lie about it? Is he supposed to broadcast to the world? Is he supposed to mention it to everyone upon introduction? And how did he lie when he swore “that oath”? He had no foresight of what would happen with Aerys. He didn’t join the kingsguard expecting he would have to kill the king to prevent mass murder.

  61. JaimeNotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Tatters:
    JaimeNotJamie,

    He lied when he swore that oath, and he has hidden the truth his whole life. He lied to the everyone about Brans fall.
    Dishonesty is the opposite of honesty.

    His character is an illustration about the flaws of the entire system of oaths and their ability to be upheld.

    Who did he lie to about Bran? He openly admits it when asked about it.

  62. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Laura Stone: This was shot to be passionate and between two lovers. NOPE.)

    Lol what?? Did we watch the same scene? “passionate, between two lovers”? By all accounts it was shot to be fucked up and sad, and the result is exactly that. She doesn’t want him the way she used to, he hates it that she doesn’t want him the way she used to, he’s frustrated, he’s angry, he’s desperate, he feels he’s sacrificed his whole life for this woman who is now rejecting him over something he feels he had no power over. This has been a toxic, fucked up relationship, and in a way this is its culmination. The show has conveyed this perfectly.

    Seriously, just because you people keep deluding yourself over Jaime being a “redeemed” character doesn’t mean that it is so. Jaime is not a hero, he’s not a good person, the only reason people felt sympathetic for him at this point (in the books and in the show) because we learned more about him and learned that he’s actually a really complex character with pretty heavy issues. That doesn’t mean that he’s 100% changed for the better and now this awesome guy who would never ever do anything bad ever.

    I also don’t know where people are getting that Jaime is staunchly anti-rape. He’s not anti-rape, as far as I remember he’s never spoken out against rape as such. He doesn’t feel bad about certain things because they were rapes, it’s because he wanted to help the people being involved but couldn’t. He would feel the same even if Aerys “only” beat his wife or Robert “only” beat Cersei and rape wasn’t involved at all. He would’ve defended Brienne even if the bad guys were about to “only” beat her. It’s just that in that world (much like in ours) rape is pretty much the default physical violence that happens to women aside of battery.

  63. jamiessword
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Alright lets say it was rape….guess what? Jamie lannister is a rapist and you will continue to watch this show, who gives a fuck??? People love to complain about stupid things…75% of the people on here just love to complain about stupid shit but yet will continue watching anyway

  64. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    Geraltt: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3185182/

    What? No Titus Pullo?! jk It’s the inferior William Shakespeare version. :-)

  65. Cerseismoonblood
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    I think I should know if it was rape or not…

  66. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    barak,

    It’s not about redemption. It is about accurately portraying the character. The people who are upset don’t believe Jaime is a rapist in the books. Making him one in the show just to show that he isn’t a good guy is a poor portrayal of a decidedly grey character.

  67. Turri
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    chives,
    Well, strangling his cousin was definitely worse. You should probably drop the condescending tone towards those who are more concerned, though.

  68. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    In other news, it is the 872 death anniversary of Pierre Abelard. No one could have accused him of raping Heloise, being castrated and all.

  69. noodle
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    yes, how powerless and helpless Jaime is before his love for a fantasy that never really existed. also, vaginas.

    Did Cersei love Jaime, or was he just a means to an end? He’d do as she asked, all she needed to do was put out. Easy, like a dog. Did Jaime love Cersei, or was she just a familiar, pretty, warm someone who he felt close to his entire life–and most importantly, let him stick it in on a regular basis? He definitely needed it, nothing like witnessing horrible, traumatizing things at a young age to make you run for comfort. and by comfort….I mean vagina. Whether the human being for whom that vagina is a part of their physical body wants you in there or not…..well you heard him. He don’t care.

    pussy power!

    By the way, The Other Woman looks really funny and I’m planning to see it, it seems like it’ll be a enjoyable movie. NCW you look good in it! I will admit you were one of the deciding factors in my choosing to go to the theater for it. It’s worth the price of my admission.

  70. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    bebus,

    It just shows that D&D and the folks in charge of this particular ep are part of our screwed up societal norms and are out of touch with actually giving a crap about women.

    That’s just a ridiculous charge. Jaime and Cersei are in an incestual relationship. However J&C try to rationalize the act is irrelevant. The point of the scene is to show what reprehensible, screwed up people J&C are. Depicting rape≠promoting rape.

  71. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    jamiessword,

    Yes, the inaccurate portrayal of one of the 5 most popular characters is stupid. This goes beyond book purism. I am not a book purist. I defend D&D at every turn. But this was just a major misstep by them and Alex Graves. It deserves the scrutiny it is receiving.

  72. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No, but he is nowhere near as honest as Ned Stark, Stannis or Davos,
    and is capable of completely closing out sense, as he learned when young.
    Jaime has his demons, and he let them out once in a while (His lies to Tyrion, Aerys and the pyromancers, wanting Robert dead, pushing Bran, assaulting Ned Stark, Whispering wood, escape from prison and saving Brienne is just utter madness)
    Trying to fix everything eventually gets you into tricky situations.
    Jaime doesnt deal with this properly, he rather wants to axe all knots, and the rape scene is all of this rage Brienne kept in boiling over, and ends up hurting Cersei. He isnt a warrior anymore, he hasnt had incest, he failed to protect his son and king, while being pushed away from his family.
    Jaime is pressed in a corner and this is the result, bold decision to have him arrive early and boiling over just in time for the sept incest.
    Its literally Jaime at his worst, i bet he will regret rape greatly as he abhores it above all other. But at this moment his honor doesnt get in way for his emotions.

  73. A flayed man none
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    This is a work of fiction, people.

    Arguing over whether or not it was rape is the epitome of worthless. It remains fiction regardless.

  74. daroe23
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    So. A lot of Book Readers seem to be OK with the progression of the rape in the books. Yes. It. Was. Rape. In. The. Book. I seem to recall Cersei saying “no” and Jaime not stopping and then she finally says yes. Apparently the lesson we should take is keep raping until they say yes and then it magically becomes consensual. Pretty messed up.

  75. barak
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap: It’s not about redemption. It is about accurately portraying the character. The people who are upset don’t believe Jaime is a rapist in the books. Making him one in the show just to show that he isn’t a good guy is a poor portrayal of a decidedly grey character.

    The people who don’t believe that Jaime is a rapist in the books should reread the scene from the book and realize that even before Cersei went “oh yeah baby, I’m totally into this now because I’m such a hussy” (<- sarcasm) Jaime was actually physically forcing himself on her, disregarding her protests.

    Mike Chair: Push a kid out a window and nobody cares. Rape your sister and everyone loses their minds.

    Seriously. And had this happened in season 1 or 2 everybody would be like “yeah, we knew he was a horrible bastard!” And it’s not like he’s not the same guy who pushed Bran out of the window, we just learned more about him and about what makes him tick.

  76. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    anuhealani: What a gross thing to say. Methinks the woman your character brutalized is the actual powerless one in this situation, sweetie.

    I think what NCW is saying is that he’s acting out of powerlessness – which is what many who talk about rapists say they’re doing, that they’re asserting power in the only way they can. She doesn’t want him anymore. She doesn’t seem him as the man he used to be, for the loss of his hand. He then asserts his control, the only control he has, over her – so in that sense, yes, he’s acting out of powerlessness.

  77. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    JaimeNotJamie,

    If Jaime had been more honest he would have fixed this mess before it even got to his head that he would attack Ned.
    It all comes back to him, so one cannot defend his silence when he doesnt give a break to Cat or Ned. He is not stupid, but he shouldnt have messed up big time when he could have talked to anyone, or at least stay and fight for his choices instead of contributing to fueling the suspicion about himself. So yeah, Jaimes dishonesty led to more fuck ups from him.

  78. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    He’s not going to “regret it” if they weren’t going for it being clearly a rape scene. That’s part of the issue. As the AV Club aptly noted, they already did this with Drogo, drastically changing the tone of his wedding scene with Dany and then basically dropped it. It wasn’t used as further/interesting character development. It was just rape. They could have presented it in the show in a decidedly grey manner like it was in the books (Cersei expressing her concerns, shoving him away, him coming at her anyway, then having it clear by her comments during and after that the primary concern was getting caught) and let the viewers make of that what they wanted. Having it filmed the way it was just is incredibly disappointing in that it does seem to be a logical extension of his character flaws if they wanted to accentuate one of them. Not in how he abhors what Aerys does, not in how he hates Robert for what he does to Cersei, or in how he stands up for Brienne or the entirety of his interactions with Pia. As TyrionPimpslap says, it’s not about wanting the show to depict him as some shining white knight, it’s about a disagreement the fundamental inner workings of his character.

    It’s irrelevant. It happened. Eventually I’ll deal with it and move on, but that doesn’t mean it needs to be agreed about or that people need to think it’s an accurate representation of his character.

  79. Enfield
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    I keep going back and forth over it. I think it was an ambiguous scene in the books, and it was supposed to be ambiguous in the show. Either way, it is not the earth-shattering black hole of show-ruining despair that everyone is classifying it as.

    But people saying that the showrunners somehow condone the act are ridiculous. Depiction does not, and has not ever, meant endorsement.

  80. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Tatters:
    JaimeNotJamie,

    If Jaime had been more honest he would have fixed this mess before it even got to his head that he would attack Ned.
    It all comes back to him, so one cannot defend his silence when he doesnt give a break to Cat or Ned. He is not stupid, but he shouldnt have messed up big time when he could have talked to anyone, or at least stay and fight for his choices instead of contributing to fueling the suspicion about himself. So yeah, Jaimes dishonesty led to more fuck ups from him.

    Dishonestly that Ned wouldn’t do? I must be misremembering the scene where Ned lies to Jaime about giving the command to arrest Tyrion, which is when Jaime draws his sword. Jaime is silent on issues re: Cersei out of respect for her wishes, when it’s clear throughout the text that he would prefer to go public with their relationship. If you want to say that his inaction is tantamount to lying, fine, but he is almost 100% truthful when confronted with things.

  81. Shock Me
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Geraltt,

    That reminds me of a Hitler rant that called Sean Bean a two-legged spoiler because every role he plays he ends up dying. The Ides of March Baby!

  82. jwal
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    I’m very curious as to how the show deals with it next episode. Based on the preview, it doesn’t look like much will be made of it. Will Jaime realize that his family brings out the worst in him? if that’s the point of then I’d be sorely disappointed. For me, the rape completely changes the character. I know many have said that Jaime wasn’t a good guy to begin with or he was a gray character, but still, I can’t help feeling this way. Will Jaime take a darker turn? or will he go back making quips? If it’s the latter, I won’t be smiling.

  83. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    bebus: And that’s (according to the preview) exactly what’s going to happen, it looks like, and that is actually worse than the rape itself.Most of our societal problems with sexual assault right now are due to men thinking that sex is their due, and that it is owed to them, and that unless a woman is actually biting and clawing and punching them it “isn’t rape” if she just resists a little or says “no”.Cersei ending up being ok with it reinforces this false and dangerous notion.It just shows that D&D and the folks in charge of this particular ep are part of our screwed up societal norms and are out of touch with actually giving a crap about women.See this: https://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2014/04/14/effect-of-rape-culture-girls-view-sexual-violence-as-normal/

    1. You can’t judge based on the preview.

    2. Maybe what you’re saying with that second sentence is the point? That this highlights the problematic nature of men believing sex is their “due” because it’s their spouse/girlfriend/lover?

    3. I’d argue that this scene shows the opposite. If anything the parts that suggest they have a lack of facility or understanding is the gratuitous boobs they throw in everywhere else.

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    jamiessword,

    Yes, the inaccurate portrayal of one of the 5 most popular characters is stupid. This goes beyond book purism. I am not a book purist. I defend D&D at every turn. But this was just a major misstep by them and Alex Graves. It deserves the scrutiny it is receiving.

    I think the scrutiny is good. Again, I think we’re going to come down on different sides on this one. That scene, in the books, read very, very uncomfortable to me. Of course they were coming from different places (Jaime just returning post-Joff death, rather than show version pre-Joff death), so Cersei’s subsequent rejection of Jaime happens earlier in the show than in the book.

    But the line in the book I kept coming back to was about how he didn’t care. He says he didn’t care about anything around him, which to me meant he wasn’t seeing her as a person either, not anymore. I came away thinking “If he didn’t rape her, it was really really really friggin eye-lash width close.” The show pushes it more, agreed. It doesn’t come across that it’s sometimes consensual (at moments you see Cersei kiss back as they’re falling, and sort of cup his face in her hands, but the FINAL image is of her grabbing that alter saying “It’s not right” over and over again. That’s your last takeaway, not her turning him over to finish, or say “Yes yes yes.”) I can’t interpret it as not rape. It is.

    (To the rest of you saying things like, “It’s just a show” or “Why are you all hung up on this,” it’s because A) it’s our favorite goddamned show on TV and B) it’s the most startling scene in an overall great episode! Other than a few idiots yammering about it not being rape or that she deserved it (comments which are rightly being deleted), it’s an actual interesting discussion!)

  84. Clob
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    Just saw on EW that the viewer numbers were back up to match episode 1′s series high. Hopefully the one poorly executed scene doesn’t hurt it much next week.

  85. Matt Sinopoli
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Joshua Atreides:
    Would it be morbidly hilarious if we get confirmation either through flashback or through the dialogue with Cersei (seen in the “Oathkeeper” promo in regards to her ordering him to deliver Sansa’s head) that she did give in?

    Yeah I wouldn’t surprised. That seems to happen a lot on shows with huge followings. I remember when Lost was on people would obsess over something that was unclear in an episode and build it into a big mystery only to have the issue immediately clarified in the next episode.

    I hope something similar happens here, because it sounds like it was everyone’s intent for it to not be a rape and it definitely came across as a rape to me and everyone I watched with. Maybe the next episode will show them waking up in bed or something and we can just chalk it up to poor directing/editing and move on.

  86. MX
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for the quote below.

    I think that people like to imagine that Jaime and Cersei are somehow superhuman and special (lanky, blond, young), and that they deserve to be together. They also imagine that they are like two horny teenagers and that the world is preventing them from enjoying themselves, so they have to do it secret.

    But in every act of incest (except for a few in which the people involved didn’t grow up together and they try to recover a family they never had, such as an interesting and heartbreaking case in Germany), there is implicit violence involved.

    Re-watch the scene from the first episode in which Jaime and Cersei are having rough sex when Bran shows up. It shows that the relationship between Jaime and Cersei contains elements of violence from the start, and it is one of the turn-on factors for both of them. Throwing the kid out of the window added to their pleasure.

    Another way to read this scene, then, is that this is both the old Jaime, who knew that Cersei liked kinky games, and the new Jaime, who has to lose all of his old certainties, including the love they once shared. This is a breakdown, making both of them pitiful instead of powerful.

    barak: Lol what?? Did we watch the same scene? “passionate, between two lovers”? By all accounts it was shot to be fucked up and sad, and the result is exactly that. She doesn’t want him the way she used to, he hates it that she doesn’t want him the way she used to, he’s frustrated, he’s angry, he’s desperate, he feels he’s sacrificed his whole life for this woman who is now rejecting him over something he feels he had no power over. This has been a toxic, fucked up relationship, and in a way this is its culmination. The show has conveyed this perfectly.

    Seriously, just because you people keep deluding yourself over Jaime being a “redeemed” character doesn’t mean that it is so. Jaime is not a hero, he’s not a good person, the only reason people felt sympathetic for him at this point (in the books and in the show) because we learned more about him and learned that he’s actually a really complex character with pretty heavy issues. That doesn’t mean that he’s 100% changed for the better and now this awesome guy who would never ever do anything bad ever.

    I also don’t know where people are getting that Jaime is staunchly anti-rape. He’s not anti-rape, as far as I remember he’s never spoken out against rape as such. He doesn’t feel bad about certain things because they were rapes, it’s because he wanted to help the people being involved but couldn’t. He would feel the same even if Aerys “only” beat his wife or Robert “only” beat Cersei and rape wasn’t involved at all. He would’ve defended Brienne even if the bad guys were about to “only” beat her. It’s just that in that world (much like in ours) rape is pretty much the default physical violence that happens to women aside of battery.

  87. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger,

    I completely agree with you but I don’t think you can so totally devoid the scene of context.

  88. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Clob,

    Which scene? I wasn’t a fan of Alex Graves before this episode. I felt that he executed each scene flawlessly, in particular the scene in the Sept.

  89. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Clob:
    Just saw on EW that the viewer numbers were back up to match episode 1′s series high.Hopefully the one poorly executed scene doesn’t hurt it much next week.

    What poorly executed scene?

    People aren’t going to stop watching because you didn’t like the scene.

    Fangirls have called out the show before (sexposition anyone?) and the ratings have just gone up and up.

  90. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    barak: The people who don’t believe that Jaime is a rapist in the books should reread the scene from the book and realize that even before Cersei went “oh yeah baby, I’m totally into this now because I’m such a hussy” (<- sarcasm) Jaime was actually physically forcing himself on her, disregarding her protests.

    Seriously. And had this happened in season 1 or 2 everybody would be like “yeah, we knew he was a horrible bastard!” And it’s not like he’s not the same guy who pushed Bran out of the window, we just learned more about him and about what makes him tick.

    But that’s also a gross oversimplification of the scene in the books. Regardless of whether you think Cersei is faking the interaction during sex itself, her comments are clear after that her issue is in regards to the place and time, not the act. That’s not saying it’s a wholesome scene, but it does significantly change the coloring of it.

    The Bran issue has been discussed at length and always comes up in some manner when Jaime is brought up. The uproar from the sullied isn’t the same because it was an accurate depiction of what happened in the books. People who try to justify the act itself or think that it’s okay are missing the point, just as people who refuse to ever acknowledge the good that Jaime does because they are fixated on pushing Bran and therefore can’t acknowledge any of his good/positive actions because it’s easier to label him a villain and move on are also being equally shortsighted.

    A wise man once said The heroes will always be remembered. The best. The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Jaime falls in the very last category. People don’t want to acknowledge that because they let his actions with Bran color their entire opinion, or they are so enamored with ‘redemption’ that it whitewashes the prior misdeeds. I just wish the show stuck to what was in character for him when depicting a critical scene. I don’t think that scene fits the ambiguity of the book, but to each his own.

  91. Skipjack
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    I think everyone is having an unpleasant whiplash between the show and their view of the books/characters. I and almost everyone else would have done this scene differently, but I will wait to see how they mean to explore this. While it may have derailed Jaime’s character arc if they were going to stick to it, it’s quite possible that they are going for something else. To be honest, I have had a hard time believing Cersei and Jaime’s relationship in the books. If the show goes in a way that reflects on Jaime’s character badly, but honestly, then I will respect this choice. After all, the show runners know more about Jaime than we do. Maybe he’s not on a redemptive arc after all.

    Also, anyone who wants others to stop being offended needs to grow up. Other people get to have feelings, and they aren’t wrong.

  92. wizardeyes
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Skipjack,

    Yes but conversely –

    Just because you’re offended, doesn’t mean you’re right.

  93. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    i can not believe still arguing over this scene get over it what is done cannot be undone

    Every one misguided by the books you read the books you think it was lovely
    sex scene in your imagination

  94. Tatters
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    JaimenotJamie,

    I agree, but talking and figthing is the difference between peace and war,
    anger and rape, life and death. Jaime is and will always be responsible for being selfish, which is why he shouldnt be in the game. Jaime is breaking the law, so i would never call him responisble person or useful, or even reasonable. He always had more opportunity than his opponents. Ned tried to fix things, Jaime didnt want to, simple as that.

  95. Lord Of Lite
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    I consider NousWanderer’s analysis of the scene to be canon on this or any other site. It’s not rape or incest. It’s rape and incest. Jaime and Cersei are both totally screwed up, and this was what was portrayed in the show. Move along here people, there is nothing else to see.

  96. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Tatters:
    JaimenotJamie,

    I agree, but talking and figthing is the difference between peace and war,
    anger and rape, life and death. Jaime is and will always be responsible for being selfish, which is why he shouldnt be in the game. Jaime is breaking the law, so i would never call him responisble person or useful, or even reasonable. He always had more opportunity than his opponents. Ned tried to fix things, Jaime didnt want to, simple as that.

    I’ve never said Jaime is as “good” of a character as Ned. Jaime loses in that comparison on a host of levels (other than how interesting they are, but I digress). I was simply stating if you’re using such an expansive definition of what constitutes lying, I’d think Ned lying to Jaime’s face that Tyrion was arrested on his orders is a fairly significant lie, especially knowing Jaime’s temperament, and I only brought it up because you said that Ned doesn’t lie. We can agree that Jaime makes less than ideal decisions throughout most of AGoT and is a deeply flawed individual.

  97. Darkstar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    For fucks sake, people; move on. More happened in the episode than that one scene.

    Who thinks there is importance in that fact that the child who survived the Wildling raid really focused on Ygritte when he was hiding? I wonder if he will kill her instead of Jon?

  98. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    anuhealani,
    Let me preface this by saying I have two degrees in Criminal Justice/Criminology and the way NCW characterizes Jaime’s motivation is exactly in line with the way in which rapists think. Regardless of whether they wish to hurt women, wish to pleasure a woman (talking about the ones who live in some fantasy land in their heads that the women enjoy it), or someone like Jaime who oversteps this boundary out of desperation….that’s their own reasoning…but behind all of those reasons is a feeling of powerlessness. Rape is simply the means by which they take control in order to regain their power. Most people don’t understand this and it’s why we have been trying to educate people that it isn’t about sex, it’s about power and taking power by force. Rapists, when given treatment (regardless of in prison or out in the community on parole), are counseled on this core issue of insecurity along with anger/fear (anger is fear, basically). Most of them don’t even recognize their own feeling of powerlessness until it is pointed out to them.

    For what it’s worth, I was VERY uncomfortable with that scene as well and for precisely the same reason as everyone else here. But I thought about it and recalled how she was alternately responding to him and then saying no, resisting physically…so I could recognize that the director did try to put some subtlety in the scene. It just wasn’t enough subtlety and it came across very wrong. I’m glad that most people noticed how wrong it was….it means we’ve come a long way toward understanding what rape is and isn’t.

  99. Clob
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    john: What poorly executed scene?People aren’t going to stop watching because you didn’t like the scene. Fangirls have called out the show before (sexposition anyone?) and the ratings have just gone up and up.

    I never actually said “I didn’t like the scene” anywhere. I called it “poorly executed” just now because of what Graves mentions today. His intention was for it to appear consensual at the end. It doesn’t, so I’d say that it wasn’t done quite properly. It won’t change MY viewing of the show one bit, nor will it for most people I imagine. However, there are a lot of articles going out today about this particular scene and everybody knows how flighty and flippant society can be these days.

  100. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar: For fucks sake, people; move on. More happened in the episode than that one scene.
    Who thinks there is importance in that fact that the child who survived the Wildling raid really focused on Ygritte when he was hiding? I wonder if he will kill her instead of Jon?

    I’m on. I think the kid will have a role in it, but Jon killing her is too … Shakespearian to pass up.

  101. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Darkstar,

    I wonder if he will kill her instead of Jon?

    In the book, Jon doesn’t shoot her, at least I don’t think he did. I thought he saw her get shot and then goes to her where she dies in his arms. So I think you’re right…the little boy will be the one to shoot Ygritte. :( Not that I blame the little fella. I’d be pretty pissed at her too.

  102. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Winter is not coming,

    No one is saying it was a lovely scene in the books. It was dark and twisted and totally fucked up. But in our opinion, it was not rape. This is just an opinion, and I admit that there is ambiguity in the book. There was very little, if any in the show. What is more upsetting is that the writers and director intended for there to be ambiguity and failed at depicting it. It came off as pure rape, with Cersei only saying “No” and “It’s not right.”

  103. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Sick of people who take personal offense to a particular scene then just rants and raves about it forever and believe that that particular scene will “kill the show”. Get over it people.

  104. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Clob: I never actually said “I didn’t like the scene” anywhere.I called it “poorly executed” just now because of what Graves mentions today.His intention was for it to appear consensual at the end.It doesn’t, so I’d say that it wasn’t done quite properly.It won’t change MY viewing of the show one bit, nor will it for most people I imagine.However, there are a lot of articles going out today about this particular scene and everybody knows how flighty and flippant society can be these days.

    Tumblr doesn’t represent the average viewer of this show.

    It’s amazing how deluded people can be when they’re in their little bubble.

    The vast majority of people who watch the show have never read the books.

  105. Mike Chair
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ,

    OMG you’re right. I forgot. Here’s the text:

    He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander’s Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask.

    The arrow was black, Jon saw, but it was fletched with white duck feathers. Not mine, he told himself, not one of mine. But he felt as if it were. ASOS:Jon VII.

  106. noodle
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    interesting…why is everyone trying to make Jaime look bad? Ugh, rape is such a cliche literary device used to tell the audience how to distinguish the Good Guys from the Bad Guys. It’s not like a thing that real people in real life do. Let’s just move on.

    Do fans still have problems with Nikolai’s nose? because that was fun. Way more fun than uncomfortable discussions about rape.

  107. mariamb
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ,

    Spoiler-tagging some of this ’cause I’m not sure who is reading what where these days.

    That was my thinking as well… the shot of that poor little boy’s face then right to Ygritte. He will be the one to kill her.

  108. Roberta
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    This is my take on this scene. Jamie repeating “I don’t care!” over and over again, was his cry of release from Cersie control of using sex to manipulate him into whatever she wants. By taking her by force, he now is taking her power away and taking back his. It over now, for good.

  109. JaimenotJamie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Last comment from me since I think the site ate my last post and I’ve spoken my part:

    @MX – I completely disagree with this line (though I agree with the overall point of your post) – “Throwing the kid out of the window added to their pleasure.” I don’t see that at all, from either of them. Cersei chastises him later, and Jaime’s line in the book is something along the lines of “he said in disgust.” I don’t see any evidence that either enjoyed what happened to Bran (which does not excuse it at all, but I do disagree with that interpretation).

    My last comment regarding the scene and how it differed from the books is one that no one is really talking about. Jaime in the books has just returned home, and presumably is resuming a 20+ year relationship with Cersei who has always welcomed his advances. He has no presumption that he will be rejected, no basis for thinking she is disinterested. He is thinking it will be an immediate rekindling. That doesn’t justify ignoring her protests about the place, but it seems far less jarring when you put yourself in his head and assume, from his perspective, you’re just picking up where it left off. I don’t even think Cersei protesting at first registered to him because it had always been 100% consensual in the past (from what we know). So it seems far less jarring, especially when she (apparently) consents. He’s not doing it out of anger, he just assumes (perhaps wrongly) it’s the same as it has always been. This is in stark contrast to the show where it’s a more egregious and offensive scene since he’s aware he has been rejected and that she’s disinterested. It makes it seems he’s forcing himself on her after he’s cognizant of her rejection. Whether you think the two scenes, as written, are comparable, is anyone’s prerogative, but the context here at least makes it seem different and more understandable, when you think that BookJaime has no reason to even assume Cersei will reject him. ShowJaime knows she’s rejected him, continues to reject him, and he does it anyway.

    That doesn’t “excuse” either, but I think it’s a worthwhile distinction to make and it helps explain why some people are bothered by the show depiction, even if you think the scenes were substantially similar.

  110. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    john,

    And they now view Jaime as a rapist. This is what is upsetting, especially for those who have unsullied friends and family who love the show and enjoy talking about it with them. For years I spoke up for the character and how much I enjoyed his complexity and character development. Finally, many of them started to come around and warm up to the character last season. He became one of the favorites, the favorite of a couple of them. After last night, that changed. Only a couple of them sensed any ambiguity, but they still felt it was rape and they felt it completely ruined any character development he had gone through over the past season. I had to show them the passage from the books to calm some of them down, and each one of them agreed that it didn’t seem like rape.

    Of course it won’t kill the show. But it was by far the biggest misstep in the entire 4 seasons so far. IMO. There are countless articles online, from both sullied and unsullied writers, who feel the same way.

  111. john
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    john,

    And they now view Jaime as a rapist. This is what is upsetting, especially for those who have unsullied friends and family who love the show and enjoys talking about it with them. For years I spoke up for the character and how much I enjoyed his complexity and character development. Finally, many of them started to come around and warm up to the character last season. He became one of the favorites, the favorite of a couple of them. After last night, that changed. Only a couple of them sensed any ambiguity, but they still felt it was rape and they felt it completely ruined any character development he had gone through over the past season. I had to show them the passage from the books to calm some of them down, and each one of them agreed that it didn’t seem like rape.

    Of course it won’t kill the show. But it was by far the biggest misstep in the entire 4 seasons so far. IMO. There are countless articles online, from both sullied and unsullied writers, who feel the same way.

    Yeah, because rape will “ruin” a character but murder and torture won’t. Amazing. He fucking threw Bran out the window! That’s much worse than what he did to his horrible sister. Plus we don’t have the whole story yet. We’ll see what Cersei’s reaction is next episode, after it’s all it’s she that got “raped”.

    Plus you aren’t speaking for all the “unsullied”. I haven’t read the books and I was pretty ambivalent about the scene. But I am not that invested in individual characters anyway. I honestly didn’t see it as particularly uncharacteristic of Jaime what he did.

  112. TieDomi
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    GRRM comments on Not a Blog:

    Re: Jaime’s changes in Breaker of Chains

    This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau’s author program.

    Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply… but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

    As for your question… I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

    The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

    Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

    If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

    That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

    Now, if you please, I’d appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.

  113. gewa76
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Just wait ’til next season when D&D have Jaime killing dogs for sport.

  114. Winter is not coming
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Winter is not coming,

    No one is saying it was a lovely scene in the books. It was dark and twisted and totally fucked up. But in our opinion, it was not rape. This is just an opinion, and I admit that there is ambiguity in the book. There was very little, if any in the show. What is more upsetting is that the writers and director intended for there to be ambiguity and failed at depicting it. It came off as pure rape, with Cersei only saying “No” and “It’s not right.”

    is that right having sex her brother when she is mourning her death son
    that possiblity to get caught. She is clearly not in the mood of having sex she is suppose to have confuse feelings and scene in the show clearly shows that she clearly and willngly kissing him then jaime forcing her having se with him.

    if she wants to sex with jaime why she care son why she mourning why she said last seasons She loves her children more than every thing else

    i didint read the books but i know that this scene was going to happend by the way

  115. axia777
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    They screwed this scene between Jaime and Cersei so badly it is not even recognizable like in the books. This just looks like rape while in the books it is clearly NOT RAPE.

    I am one unhappy ASoFaI fan. This is just messed up.

    This is why the books will always be better than the shows. ALWAYS.

  116. Tyrion Pimpslap
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    TieDomi,

    And this puts to rest any speculation that it was rape in the books. When GRRM feels the need to comment on it, you know the show fucked up.

  117. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Mike Chair,

    Don’t fret it! I forget stuff all the time and have to look it up on the wiki….so many darn details and too few brain cells on my part. :)

  118. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    mariamb,

    I should have spoiler tagged too, I guess. I just assumed there wouldn’t be any unsullied on this post. But yeah, we’re in agreement on that.

  119. Bard
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    I’ll repeat my question from the comment section of the recap article: Does anyone think he would have stopped in the book scene if Cersei had refused him from the beginning till the end?

    Cersei acts differently, not Jaime. And IMO that’s for the better. I’ve always thought that her behaviour in the book scene was unrealistic (having sex in front of her dead son after initially refusing Jaime’s advances) . Plus, in the book scene she’s at least confused and desperate and they meet there for the first time after a long time. That’s not the case in the show.

  120. Hear Me Roar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    I fixed a few spoilers for you guys.
    Just be careful when discussing (potential) future content based on the books, please.

  121. King Stannis
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Get over it people! Just take the scene for what it was and move on. Cerci and the king slayer WILL. So why should you cry. Besides its Game Of Thrones and the characters will always continue to make mistakes and redeem next to a few.

    Stannis fans we had good week right? No complains.

  122. Rygar
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    TieDomi,

    And this puts to rest any speculation that it was rape in the books. When GRRM feels the need to comment on it, you know the show fucked up.

    No it doesn’t.

  123. Feremuntrus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    TieDomi,

    And this puts to rest any speculation that it was rape in the books. When GRRM feels the need to comment on it, you know the show fucked up.

    So because the Oberyn casting was controversial to the point of G.R.R.M. interjecting, the show fucked up?

    I have to personally agree with Martin’s initial assessment and associate that as the reason the change was made by D&D. Given Jaime’s presence prior the PW, the incentive for Cersei to consent is less substantial. Jaime is already there and disappointed her with his condition. It’s massively different from the books where a woman consumed by endless sorrow at the Wedding’s aftermath finds a semblance of an escape through her lover’s opportune return.

  124. Feremuntrus
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    I have to personally agree with Martin’s initial assessment and associate it as the reason the change was made by D&D. Given Jaime’s presence prior the PW, the incentive for Cersei to consent is less substantial. Jaime is already there and disappointed her with his condition. It’s massively different from the books where a woman consumed by endless sorrow at the Wedding’s aftermath finds a semblance of an escape – a light – through her lover’s opportune return.

    In terms of Jaime’s character development, given Cersei’s lack of reciprocity for Jaime’s affection (much more significant given his ‘inopportune arrival,’ (contrasting with the book’s time stream) it should come as no huge surprise that he should eventually succumb to his passions. Furthermore, this is one of the only ways that Jaime’s black side can appear granted that we are most likely going to see him in a mostly positive light for the rest of the series.

    Lastly, no one commented on the repercussions this has in humanizing Cersei. A woman who book readers contend has no redeeming qualities is now briefly portrayed as a victim. Furthermore, if nothing else, it further solidifies her moral high ground and her love for her children which viewers after the second episode argued was a fabrication because of Lena Heady’s acting. I think the Sept scene indirectly de-legitimizes this criticism.

  125. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    Rygar,

    You win the thread

  126. jentario
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    WeirwoodTreeHugger: I’ve never seen them as hating Jaime.I just think that particular scene was really poorly executed.

    This. There should have been a few extra “yes”es from Cersei, and it should have been clear at the end that she enjoys it. It would still have been rape, but like the book it would have been less… jarring

  127. GRRMlin
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Great actor. Great character. I just hope they redeem this scene in ‘Oathkeeper.’

  128. Angie
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Wow what a lightening rod of a scene! My first reactions to this scene were silence, sadness, anger, and confusion, as I am a huge Jaime fan. I read all the books, and it is clear to me in the book, at least from Jamie’s POV, that this was a consensual act, an act of reconnection. After reading Martin’s comments above, it does make sense why the two are different, given the set ups. And yes, although as Nikolaj has stated that the scene was not intended to be an all out rape, I definitely perceived it this way. So for the purposes of this entry, that is the framework I am coming from. I do not think though, whether the incident is interpreted as a rape or not changes how I conceptualize this scene in terms of Jaime’s character development.

    After getting some space from this, I tried to sort through what is the form and function of this interaction for Jaime in the series. I am a clinical psychologist by trade, and specialize in trauma, so I view GOT and its characters through this lens.

    I have only watched the scene once, and read the books once. Rape is about power and control, as stated several times in this thread, not about sex/intimacy. I think in this scene we finally have the gritty truth about the nature of Jaime’s and Cersai’s relationship, and Jaime states this “Why have the Gods made me love such a hateful woman.” This is a huge realization for Jaime that he acknowledges that the “love” relationship he has with his sister is in actuality based on his powerlessness over his need and dependency for her. He accepts the truth of this at this point I believe only because he has a template of how kind and caring a woman can be in his experience with Brienne. Yet, still this knowledge can not change his ultimate action to reconnect again with Cersai, and then further to rape her- which is very tragic for Jaime. Never estimate the power of familiar.

    The other point is that both Jaime and Cersai are trauma survivors, from the death of their mother, Cersai’s rapes by Robert, and Jaime’s loss of his hand. So likely from the very beginning of their relationship they may have been attempting to comfort themselves from the loss of their mother via their sexual relationship with each other, though this is difficult to definitively know. From the very beginning then, their relationship is fraught with power and control issues, and attempts to gain mastery over trauma and loss, as well as comfort each other in the pain of that loss.

    This rape scene for Jaime I see in this light and Nikolaj has said that this scene for Jaime is about his powerlessness. Yes, I agree with the above comment by the Criminal Justice worker that perpetrators view rape in this light. Perpetrators are also sometimes trauma victims, as is the case with Jaime.

    In coming back to Kings Landing, Jaime realizes all he has lost, including his masculinity, status, and intimacy. It is in this one moment with Cersai that he is trying to obtain mastery over a life where he ultimately has had very little power due to his father and Cersai’s manipulation of him over the course of his entire life. There is some foreshadowing of Jaime’s attempts to gain power in his family in his interaction with Tywin when his father gives him Oathkeeper. In a twisted way, in raping Cersai he can temporarily gain the masculinity and intimacy back.

    What is ironic though, is that he is quite conflicted based on his above comment on the “gods making him love a hateful woman” in that he needs to connect with her but he also wants to disconnect from her. The rape he performs on Cersai accomplishes both of these goals, he can connect to her but disconnect from her simultaneously. The rape also becomes a container for the rage and shame he feels about his own identity (Oathbreaker, Kingslayer, etc), although he tries to numb his own feelings by saying “I don’t care.”

    Finally, this scene seems to bring forth again the theme of Jaime’s loss of his ideals in the broader context of his life. Even his beliefs about rape can be on the table to be compromised in the “right” moment. Furthermore, Cersai’s order to kill his own brother challenges his own ideals about his love and loyalty to his family, a core character ideal for Jaime. We will see what becomes of this.

    So although I do not like the scene at all, as I am a Jaime fan, it does fit with his character development as I understand it from reading the books and the series. The difference is that the series seems to be pushing the issue of Jaime becoming a tragic figure more quickly.

    I remain a Jaime fan because NIkolaj’s portrayal is artful and the complexity of this character is fascinating. I do hope it all ends well for Jaime.

    I welcome any comments, just my take on things.

  129. Bean
    Posted April 21, 2014 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    anuhealani,

    You seemed to miss the point of the comment, which is the author articulating Jaime’s f’d up mindset.

    More broadly, I think alot of people are missing the point – the scene can involve rape, but still be a good scene that’s pyschologically true to the characters. Given HBO’s track record, I sadly doubt they’ll follow through and treat the aftermath properly, so they probably should’ve steered away from explicit rape. But clarifying that Cersei was raped in the show doesn’t address the more important question for the show – whether this will contribute to the storytelling.

  130. jentario
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    New interview with Nickolaj- he confirms that they intended for it to come out as hesitantly consensual:
    http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/04/22/nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-that-controversial-jaime-cersei-scene-from-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-episode

  131. R0b0
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    Bard:
    I’ll repeat my question from the comment section of the recap article: Does anyone think he would have stopped in the book scene if Cersei had refused him from the beginning till the end?

    Cersei acts differently, not Jaime. And IMO that’s for the better.I’ve always thought that her behaviour in the book scene was unrealistic (having sex in front of her dead son after initially refusing Jaime’s advances) . Plus, in the book scene she’s at least confused and desperate and they meet there for the first time after a long time. That’s not the case in the show.

    Yes. Book-Jaime would’ve stopped.

    In the books Jaime doesn’t call Cersei a hateful woman before grabbing her by the hair, he doesn’t blame the gods for his lack of self control or just tear her clothes off while brushing away all her protests and pushing her down while repeating “Idon’t care, I don’t care.” He protected Brienne from the same fate, he was disgusted with Robert because he knew how he made Cersei feel when he forced himself on her.

    I find it so odd that you (and plenty of other book readers apparently) don’t see Jaime raping Cersei as a vastly different behavior from the the one he had in the books. As if forcing yourself on the person you love is just the kind of thing any character in asoiaf would do under unfortunate circumstances. I think there’s plenty of textual evidence that go against Jaime ever doing something like that to anyone, ever.

    Jaime has done a lot of bad shit, but never without good personal reason down the line. Killing Aerys and Bran’s murder attempt (and even the murder of his cousin on the show) were never driven by pleasure or the desire for control. (He actually recognizes that behavior in other people and finds it petty.)

    In the books it’s true I never got the impression Cersei didn’t want him, only that she realized the place was a bad location and that she feared they might get caught. But I belive 100% that if she hadn’t returned his affection, he would’ve been demoralized, maybe even angry, but he wouldn’t have gone all the way. He would’ve left the sept and left Cersei to mourn their first son.

  132. GreatJon of Slumber
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Angie:
    Wow what a lightening rod of a scene! My first reactions to this scene were silence, sadness, anger, and confusion, as Iam a huge Jaime fan. I read all the books, and it is clear to me in the book, at least from Jamie’s POV, that this was a consensual act, an act of reconnection. After reading Martin’s comments above, it does make sense why the two are different, given the set ups. And yes, although as Nikolaj has stated that the scene was not intended to be an all out rape, I definitely perceived it this way. So for the purposes of this entry, that is the framework I am coming from. I do not think though, whether the incident is interpreted as a rape or not changes how I conceptualize this scene in terms of Jaime’s character development.

    After getting some space from this, I tried to sort through what is the form and function of this interaction for Jaime in the series. I am a clinical psychologist by trade, and specialize in trauma, so I view GOT and its characters through this lens.

    I have only watched the scene once, and read the books once. Rape is about power and control, as stated several times in this thread, not about sex/intimacy. I think in this scene we finally have the gritty truth about the nature of Jaime’s and Cersai’s relationship, and Jaime states this “Why have the Gods made me love such a hateful woman.” This is a huge realization for Jaime that he acknowledges that the “love” relationship he has with his sister is in actuality based on his powerlessness over his need and dependency for her. He accepts the truth of this at this point I believe only because he has a template of how kind and caring a woman can be in his experience with Brienne. Yet, still this knowledge can not change his ultimate action to reconnect again with Cersai, and then further to rape her- which is very tragic for Jaime. Never estimate the power of familiar.

    The other point is that both Jaime and Cersai are trauma survivors, from the death of their mother, Cersai’s rapes by Robert, and Jaime’s loss of his hand. So likely from the very beginning of their relationship they may have been attempting to comfort themselves from the loss of their mother via their sexual relationship with each other, though this is difficult to definitively know. From the very beginning then, their relationship is fraught with power and control issues, and attempts to gain mastery over trauma and loss, as well as comfort each other in the pain of that loss.

    This rape scene for Jaime I see in this light and Nikolaj has said that this scene for Jaime is about his powerlessness. Yes, I agree with the above comment by the Criminal Justice worker that perpetrators view rape in this light. Perpetrators are also sometimes trauma victims, as is the case with Jaime.

    In coming back to Kings Landing, Jaime realizes all he has lost, including his masculinity, status, and intimacy. It is in this one moment with Cersai that he is trying to obtain mastery over a life where he ultimately has had very little power due to his father and Cersai’s manipulation of him over the course of his entire life. There is some foreshadowing of Jaime’s attempts to gain power in his family in his interaction with Tywin when his father gives him Oathkeeper. In a twisted way, in raping Cersai he can temporarily gain the masculinity and intimacy back.

    What is ironic though, is that he is quite conflicted based on his above comment on the “gods making him love a hateful woman” in that he needs to connect with her but he also wants to disconnect from her. The rape he performs on Cersai accomplishes both of these goals, he can connect to her but disconnect from her simultaneously.The rape also becomes a container for the rage and shame he feels about his own identity (Oathbreaker, Kingslayer, etc), although he tries to numb his own feelings by saying “I don’t care.”

    Finally, this scene seems to bring forth again the theme of Jaime’s loss of his ideals in the broader context of his life. Even his beliefs about rape can be on the table to be compromised in the “right” moment. Furthermore, Cersai’s order to kill his own brother challenges his own ideals about his love and loyalty to his family, a core character ideal for Jaime. We will see what becomes of this.

    So although I do not like the scene at all, as I am a Jaime fan, it does fit with his character development as I understand it from reading the books and the series. The difference is that the series seems to be pushing the issue of Jaime becoming a tragic figure more quickly.

    I remain a Jaime fan because NIkolaj’s portrayal is artful and the complexity of this character is fascinating. I do hope it all ends well for Jaime.

    I welcome any comments, just my take on things.

    Really really nicely stated.

  133. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Angie,

    Your experience as a clinical psychologist is very helpful and sheds a welcome light onto what is probably going on in Jaime’s mind. And in Cersei’s too. She will not like giving up such power to him (what woman would). Particularly in their relationship where there are indications she has always used her sexual attraction as a means of manipulating him.

    I think you’re spot on in your conclusion that he reconnects and disconnects with her simultaneously. This will be the next to last straw between them, with Tyrion’s conviction being the final one. In the books, I never completely understood what was the big turning point for Jaime…why he finally chose to leave KL and Cersei to her fate. I mean even with his father’s death and Cersei’s nutty behavior, it didn’t ring true. But this incident on the show is a much greater epiphany than anything Jaime experiences in the book and it will make more sense in the context of things to come (or at least I have faith that D&D will make it so).

  134. Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Feremuntrus,

    Lastly, no one commented on the repercussions this has in humanizing Cersei. A woman who book readers contend has no redeeming qualities is now briefly portrayed as a victim. Furthermore, if nothing else, it further solidifies her moral high ground and her love for her children which viewers after the second episode argued was a fabrication because of Lena Heady’s acting. I think the Sept scene indirectly de-legitimizes this criticism.

    Excellent point. Headey’s portrayal, IMHO, has always been much more subtle than the Cersei in the books and from what I can tell in the interviews with Headey and D&D, this was intentional. They wanted to make her more 3D and I’m glad they have. I despise both versions of Cersei but I understand the show version better. That always makes for better drama.

  135. Eleniah
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    GeekFurious,

    And if you don’t you’re doing the entire concept of rape a disservice. Saying that saying ‘no’ and meaning it isn’t enough. That crying out for someone to stop isn’t enough.

  136. Fluff
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    Rhymes with Freak,

    It’s not as if there was much to do with Jaime in terms of character assassination. A lot of people are worried that Tyrion is being whitewashed into a “good guy” but man, since Jaime has taken the road with Brienne, it seems everyone just forgot who he was. He’s a wonderfully interesting character but a white knight hero, he is not.

  137. Angie
    Posted April 22, 2014 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    GreatJon of Slumber,

    Thank you for the kind comment, as well to Mrs. D. It is good to know that this was helpful to someone. Looking forward to what happens from here!

  138. clegane
    Posted April 23, 2014 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    watching the scene it did seem like Jaime was forcing the thing at the beginning, but soon I definitely saw Cersei holding him tight instead of pushing him away. I’d like to think that Jaime knew her already as a strong woman who could show more force if she seriously wanted to, but she made no such move, not even a slap or beating on his chest or trying to push him away or anything. I think if she did that, he would have stopped.

  139. starks4tw
    Posted April 26, 2014 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    bebus:

    Just wanted to say that I agree 100% with everything you’ve said here.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting.


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